Hello my lovely book friends! Welcome back to a brand spanking new season of Best Book Forward, and we are kicking things off with a bang!

In our Season 3 opener, I had the pleasure of chatting to the one and only Gillian McAllister about her gripping new novel, Famous Last Words. Now, is it just me, or does Gillian just keep knocking it out of the park with every single book? She's just getting better and better! And get this – during our chat (and even more excitingly, when the mics were off!), Gillian let me in on some of the incredible ideas she's brewing for future books. I've been sworn to secrecy, mind you, but honestly, you are going to want to snap up every single thing Gillian puts out because, trust me, her ideas are mind-blowing! I absolutely cannot wait to read them myself.

In this episode, we dive deep into Camilla's world, a literary agent whose seemingly normal life completely implodes when her husband turns out to be the gunman in a hostage situation. Gillian also gives us the inside scoop on the inspiration behind Famous Last Words and how she loves to flip the script on traditional thrillers by telling them through a female lens. And get this – she's not messing around with her research! She's now a qualified Level 1 Hostage Negotiator! How impressive is that?!  We also discuss Gillian’s journey to becoming a bestselling author and I found her story so inspiring; I’m sure you will too.

Of course, as with every episode, we delve into the five books that have shaped Gillian’s life, and you can find them all listed below with handy links if you fancy treating yourself:

The Pact by Jodi Picoult

The Time Traveller's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger

Apple Tree Yard by Louise Doughty

You Don't Know Me by Imran Mahmood

Missing, Presumed by Susie Steiner

Also mentioned in this episode:

Gillian’s fabulous podcast The Honest Authors' Podcast

Night Watching by Tracy Sierra - the book Gillian raved about! I plucked up all my courage and read it, and honestly, it's every bit as brilliant (and yes, a little bit terrifying!) as Gillian said. Just maybe don't read it right before bed if you're a bit of a scaredy-cat like me! 😉

A huge thank you to the lovely @WendyReadsBooks and @BookReviewsWithBecky! I really hope you enjoyed hearing your brilliant questions answered on the show.

If you enjoyed this episode (and I really hope you did!), it would mean the absolute world to me if you could take a few moments to rate, review, and subscribe – and even better, tell all your bookish buddies about Best Book Forward!

Have a fantastic week, and I'll see you back here next Thursday for more bookish fun!

Hello and welcome back to Best Book Forward.

I'm so excited to be kicking off a brand new season with you all.

If you're new here.

Hi, welcome.

I'm Helen and you can think of this podcast as a bookish version of Desert Island Discs where I delve into the literary lives of your favourite authors, exploring their inspirations, writing journeys and of course, the books that have shaped shaped them.

Today we have the absolute pleasure of welcoming the incredibly talented Gillian McAllister.

Gillian is the author of numerous best selling thrillers including Just Another Missing Person and Wrong Place, Wrong Time.

In this episode, we'll be diving into Gillian's latest novel, Famous Last Words, a gripping thriller that explores the shocking circumstances surrounding a hostage situation involving a literary agent's husband.

We'll be chatting about Gillian's unique approach to the thriller genre, particularly how she delves into the emotional side of these stories, often through the eyes of her strong female protagonists.

But that's not all.

Gillian will also be sharing the five books that have shaped her as a writer, offering a fascinating glimpse into the literary influences that have inspired her own captivating stories.

So grab a cuppa and let's get ready for a conversation with the brilliant Gillian McAllister.

Gillian, welcome and thank you so much for joining me on Best Foot Forward today.

Hi, thank you for having me.

I'm so excited.

It's a new season and you're my first guest, so what a way to get started.

So we're here to talk about your latest novel, Famous Last Words.

We're recording this on the 23rd of January, so we're one week away from publication day, which is very exciting.

I've just finished it for the second time and loved it.

I always love your books.

I think you always bring something really fresh and exciting and I think readers are going to just love Famous Last Words.

So I'd love it if you could start off by telling everyone a little bit about Famous Last Words.

And we will do our best to keep this obviously spoiler free, of course.

So, Famous Last Words tells the story of Camilla, who is a literary agent in London.

She's happily married to her husband Luke and and they have a nine month old baby called Polly.

And on the first day back at work after maternity leave, Cam wakes up and Luke isn't there.

And she tells herself maybe he had a work thing, maybe she's forgotten.

Like her mum brain is very busy and she goes to work as normal.

She drops Polly at nursery and there is a BBC breaking news alert in the foyer of her agency's.

Office, saying there's a hostage situation developing in Bermondsey, which is where her husband works.

She tells herself that he's not involved, although she can't get hold of him on the phone.

And not very long later, the police arrive in the foyer of her work and they tell her that her husband is involved in the hostage situation, but that he hasn't been taken hostage, he is actually the gunman.

So it tells the story of the how and the why this came to be, which spans quite a large period of time and covers the sort of shock and grief at your husband doing something that makes you both notorious.

It is absolutely brilliant.

It's such a clever idea, really grabs you from the first page.

I mean, I think I was instantly connected to the characters and stressed straight away what we like to hear in the opening chapters, as you say, we see this really tense scene playing out and we see it from two sides, really.

Camilla watching in shock and disbelief, just can't believe that her husband could possibly be involved.

And then we've got Niall, who is the hostage negotiator, who's managing the whole scene and, you know, trying to make sure everyone's safe.

We'll talk about these characters, obviously, a little bit more later, but it just felt like a really explosive and exciting way to start a novel.

I mean, it's instantly gripping.

So I would love if you could tell us where the initial spark, the inspiration, came from.

Well, I think when you're kind of deep into your career as a thriller author, it.

But it's imperative for me anyway that I don't write the same book again.

So I'm always trying to look for unexplored topics, and I'm finding kind of fertile ground in the action thrillers of the moment.

Thinking about films like Die Hard and, you know, like, kind of using typically male tropes, but writing about them with a female lens.

And I suddenly sort of thought about a hostage situation.

And I feel like it's ubiquitous in, you know, really quite male films.

And there's always snipers and there's explosions and gunmen.

But I was thinking, what would that look like if written by a woman and actually played out emotionally?

So how does it feel when somebody close to you does something like that, rather than, you know, what is it like to be taken hostage or a more traditional angle?

And that's where I got the idea, is I suddenly started to think, I haven't really seen a hostage situation thriller very much.

And once I thought that it was just a case of Thinking about what is the most interesting angle into that.

And what I kind of liked about it is that at no point does the reader really know what's going on inside the building.

You have the heroine is married to the perpetrator and the hostage negotiator is tasked with stopping the situation.

But you don't know what's going on in the building.

And I quite like that because I think traditionally you're always inside the building in.

In sort of movies and stuff.

So that is where it came from.

And then it was just a case of figuring out why anybody would do that, which was a complete headache, as you can imagine.

But hopefully the solution is satisfactory.

It is.

It's brilliant.

It is brilliant.

Yours always do.

I always know I'm in safe hands with your books.

That's really interesting you say that because actually there is action in those sort of first scenes.

As I said, it's quite explosive.

But it is that sort of feeling and not just from Camilla.

You know, we sort of, as I say, we'll talk about them in a minute.

But Niall and the sort of stress of like having to try and work it all out very quickly.

So it's just brilliant.

Should we move on to talk about the characters then?

So as you say, when we first meet Camilla, it's a really stressful day for her.

She's returning to work.

Side note, love the book.

Bookish elements throughout.

Who doesn't love books about books?

So yeah, she's getting ready for her daughter's first day at nursery.

There's this note from her husband and she's very relatable in many ways.

You know, she's an ordinary woman going about her day.

You really put her through a lot throughout the whole book, not just in the opening chapters, but poor Camilla, she goes through a lot.

Could you tell us how you developed her character while keeping her and her actions believable throughout?

It never sort of felt like, you know, do you know, sometimes those thrillers, people will say it was really far fetched.

It never sort of strayed to that for me.

I could totally see somebody behaving the way she does and doing what she does.

Yeah, I.

Realism is important to me because I do read thrillers that are just different to mine where it gets quite crazy at the end.

And some thriller readers really like that, I think.

But I.

You do lose me at some point if you do that.

The minute I kind of feel like, wow, I'm not sure I'd do that.

I feel like the particular blend of thriller that I Write, you basically have to be on side with the protagonist because you're putting yourself in their shoes rather than kind of watching the action.

And I suppose at the cornerstone of Cam's character is she's pretty determined to believe that her husband wouldn't have ever done this for bad reasons.

Like, there's no sign that he's, you know, troubled or nefarious.

And she really believes the good in him.

And I think in some ways that stems from, you know, she's pretty introverted.

She loves books and she loves a narrative.

And she kind of can't really understand how her life can kind of do this.

Like 180.

And so she's always looking for the answer in the same way that readers, I think, are like, it's sort of quite meta fictional in that way.

Like, she is looking for a happy ending and she sort of works very hard to try and get one.

Hmm.

It's so interesting that.

And you say that about the different types of thrillers because I love reading thrillers as well.

But I like you.

I don't like it when I've read something and it sort of wraps up really quickly at the end.

And I think that's something that your books do very well.

Even if you look at things like wrong place, wrong time, when it was, you know, you had to sort of not suspend your belief as much.

But it does go back in time.

But I did sort of feel like I could totally believe and sort of.

I can't remember the character's name in that one off the top of my head, but I felt, yeah, I was with her as well.

So I think you do that really, really well.

Yeah.

And then.

So your other character, in Famous Last Words, is Niall, who's the hostage negotiator.

He is a brilliant character.

I absolutely loved reading his perspectives, particularly like the insights into his role and the impact it has on his personal life.

It's so stressful.

I read yesterday an interview with you where you talked about the lengths that you went to to research this role.

And I would love it if you could tell us some about this because it sounds so interesting.

Of course.

Well, I mean, yes, it is one of those situations where I could.

So I reached out to a hostage negotiator and they tend to like to talk.

So he was very happy to chat to me about it.

But the deeper in I got, the more I realized there's a skill set here that I just don't know about.

And with other occupations, sometimes you can find out the facts, find out some Salient details and sort of make up the rest.

But this was.

It's so specialized, and the more I asked him about things, the more interesting things he said.

So I ended up on a level one hostage negotiation course which lasted all day.

And we did amazingly interesting roleplay exercises with actors who, you know completely different scenarios as well.

Like one was somebody who has held up a bank, like a bank heist.

But he's done it.

If you're good at it, you would extract the information that he's done it in order to fund medical treatment.

And it was based on a real case.

And it was really an exercise in the sort of empathy and the active listening and how if you get to the why of things, sometimes you can de.

Escalate a situation.

And there was another roleplay exercise with a completely different situation with a kidnapping on an oil rig.

So sometimes.

Sometimes, probably not.

Very often oil rigs are that the employees can be taken and a ransom issued.

And that was much more of a financial negotiation with somebody that just does this professionally.

You know, like their.

Their bread and butter is kidnapping and obviously an actor.

And that was a completely different skill set because that was very high octane.

And the kidnapper became very angry that you weren't just paying up.

So it was extremely interesting and full of kind of life advice, actually.

Like, you know, that the FBI and the Met both use the same sequence for hostage negotiation.

And it has six steps and the first five are listening.

And I had no idea that, that, that that would be the case.

I thought it would all be about persuasion.

And actually the.

The hostage negotiator said to me, all anybody wants to do is be understood.

People actually very rarely want a solution.

And I think when you talk to women about this, women understand this a lot.

And a lot of people are married to somebody who provides solutions.

And what most women want to do is be heard.

And it was actually really interesting to kind of reflect on.

You know, when you're really furious, do you kind of want somebody going, we should do this, or do you want somebody going, God, yeah, that would really annoy me as well.

And so the role of the hostage negotiator is to be empathetic, really.

And everything else, the persuasion and the reciprocity kind of stems from that.

That sounds so interesting.

I kind of feel like as we're approaching teen years in our house, I might go into a level one course.

It has helped me.

I parent in kind of a different way.

Really, as a result.

Yeah, because, I mean, the hostage negotiator said the profile of most kidnappers is very akin to an emotional teenager because you're.

When you're in a really high pressure situation, your prefrontal cortex shuts down and you cannot reason.

And teenagers who are rebelling and toddlers who are throwing tantrums are in that state.

They literally can't reason.

So you have to do different things.

And actually when I do different things with my son, when he does tantrum, he responds in a completely different way.

Now it has changed how a parent, which I'm really surprised to admit, but it has.

That sounds so interesting.

I think we will need to sign up.

Yeah.

As you were talking about that as well, I was thinking, oh wonder.

That's so interesting.

But I feel like.

Did it help you with inspiration for other books and things going through that course as well?

Because it sounds like lots of things came out.

Did you sort of pluck any ideas from there that you might store for later date or.

Yeah, I actually got my idea for my next book book from.

From the guy.

Wow.

And then wrote a whole another book.

Not about hostage negotiation, but he is a freelance kidnapper ransom negotiator.

And I was like, okay, that's too interesting to pass up.

So my next book is about kidnapper ransom.

So it's.

Yeah, it's kind of.

It's very different to Famous Last Words in that it has very few characters, but it's it.

I found it impossible not to talk about that topic once I found out what he did.

And again it's something that I've not A proper old fashioned ransom that says don't tell the police.

Like the hook is.

What do you do when the husband wants to tell the police and the wife decides to meet the kidnappers privately?

That's what the book's about.

Yeah, it's a cool book.

I think so that is coming next January, but Yeah.

So endless fodder from the hostage negotiator for ideas.

You're gonna go through all these courses now, have a look and see like any career in crime related things and just use that as inspiration.

Brilliant idea.

That sounds amazing.

Can't wait to read it.

That's so greedy, isn't it?

People are sitting here waiting for Famous Last Words to come out and I'm now excited about one that's coming out.

In January 26th and I'm writing a different one.

Like it's.

How are you the novelist?

Yeah, I'm just sort of working up a plan for the one after because the.

The next one is all done.

So on to the next.

We're always like a year or two ahead of everybody else.

It's very strange.

You're superwoman with a toddler and doing all these courses as well.

It's amazing.

Well, I have child care which does help.

So let's talk about your writing life then.

So you have had a fabulous career to date and long may it continue some of your achievements so far.

So you're a New York Times bestseller.

Wrong Place, Wrong Time was a Reese Witherspoon book club pick and also won best thriller and the best Book Forward awards.

Very prestigious.

And many of your books have been optioned for movies as well, which is very exciting.

But your journey to becoming a best selling author was by no means easy from what I've read.

And I wonder whether you would mind sharing some of your story with us of how you've got to where you are today.

Yeah, of course.

I mean I wrote a novel while I was off sick actually.

I had glandular fever.

And I think I always say everybody knows somebody that got glandular fever really badly.

And I'm that person, you know, it just absolutely slays some people.

And it was that for me.

So I wrote my first novel then and didn't really do a lot with it, but had this sort of time and space and appetite to write fiction.

And it was something sedentary that I could do while I couldn't work in my early 20s.

And then years later I had a.

I was working as a trainee lawyer and I had a relapse of what was my formal diagnosis was me, which means very little.

It means we are very tired and we don't know why, for want of a better adjective, because it was way beyond tiredness.

So this is about six years after I had recovered from glandular fever.

I just got.

I think I probably got the flu.

And it just took me like four months to be okay.

And something about the.

Those events made me start to think like being a lawyer was taking quite a toll on my body because it's such long hours, there's such a degree of presenteeism.

And even when completely.

Well, I was more fatigued than the average person, I would say.

So I was sort of starting to think, you know, now I had this relapse, like did I need a plan B?

And so I revisited that first novel and decided it no longer applied really, but wrote a different one and queried agents while off sick really on a whim.

And the novel wasn't finished, which would never be the official advice, and got a full manuscript Request.

And ultimately I finished that novel and sent it to that agent and sent it to a few other agents and nobody took it on.

But what it did do was kind of light a fire in me to think actually I might be able to actually have a crack at this.

Like, literary agents don't send personalized feedback very often.

They don't request a full length manuscript unless they think you can write.

And I sort of had a bit of beginner's luck really, I think, which fueled a fire.

And so I went back to work and I was on like a long phased return because I was still fairly kind of feeble and.

And I used that time to write a new novel, which ultimately led to me getting an agent the following year.

And she sent it out to publishers and it didn't sell.

So I'm no stranger to rejection.

I had many agents reject me repeatedly and then publishers reject me.

And under her guidance I wrote a new novel.

So this was the fourth novel which sold to Penguin in a two bit deal and became my debut.

But it, you know, and it was a Sunday Times bestseller.

And I always say it looks a little bit like overnight success, but it took me the best part of a decade actually to get to that point.

So it was pretty.

I found it a very tough road to find a publisher and I'm glad I found it for that book because it was a better book than the others, but it was also thriller and the others were more akin to what you would call women's fiction.

So.

Yeah, and I think you can still see the roots of women's fiction in what I write.

And it was a lot of what I read.

And I think that more emotional side of thrillers is like my usp, but it was a thriller that I got published as my debut.

And I'm sort of grateful that it was because I do think thriller is the right genre for me to be in.

It's.

I sort of like the kind of plot brain that you have to have.

So, yeah, that was my journey to publication, a very, very long one.

Well, it's really inspiring, Gillian, you think, you know, when you were so poorly to, you know, to sort of try something new and to sort of keep coming back after rejection.

I'm sure many people take that first rejection.

I'm like, oh, it's not for me then.

And then sort of pursue something else.

I think that is really inspiring.

I was just thinking then when you said about the, the women's stories and it's your sort of unique spin on your books as well.

In famous last words, one of the things I love in there, and I'll sort of won't give any spoilers again, but Cam Sisters.

Libby, isn't it?

Yes, a lot in there.

We talk about, you know, women's life and women's health and fertility and stuff.

And I just think those sort of touches also really connect you to all the characters because it's so real.

I don't.

I can't think of another thriller where you do have that as well.

And that's why I love your books so much.

I think they are really, really relatable.

Thank you.

I always figure, like, you can add without subtracting with a thriller, so you can still write a page turner with plot and twists, but if you can also humanize your characters, actually the plot will just work harder for you because your reader will care.

Whereas if you write a thriller where the characters are less well defined, I think it's harder to get the reader to invest, actually, as well as obviously, you know, wanting to tell women's stories and to write about issues like infertility.

I was, you know, I hope I.

I wrote it accurately, but I think it.

Yeah, I think character is key to a page turner in so many ways.

Yeah, I think you did write that.

I mean, I struggled with fertility, so I found those, you know, they weren't sort of difficult to read in that, you know, sometimes it's too much.

But it was, you know, it was just very human and very.

Yeah, I thought it was absolutely brilliant.

I know.

Gillian, you're really supportive of other writers.

You often share tips on Instagram.

You have your podcast, which is the Honest Authors podcast, which I'll put a link to in the show.

Notes for people to listen.

Did you have that sort of support yourself when you were starting out?

Was that out there?

Were other writers doing that for.

For you or.

Not in a specific way?

I think there are.

I spent a lot of time on the writers and artists website where they did have a blog where they talk about, you know, what's a good query letter and how to write a synopsis and stuff like that.

But I didn't see any authors specifically giving advice like that.

And I think I feel like it's important not to gatekeeper and to know that even now, at the established point, I am.

I still have to write a pitch every year and persuade someone.

And it's kind of.

I find it useful to show that process, because whether you're published or not, an unpublished writer trying to get published is doing the same job as A published writer.

And I see no distinction really.

I'm doing the same thing as before I was published.

I'm writing novels.

And I kind of wanted to talk openly about that, that the process is still the same for me.

Even though I've seen some success, it's.

It's still difficult at times.

It's very difficult for me to write a novel.

It takes over my life in a fairly unpleasant way.

So it's, you know, I kind of wanted to support aspiring authors and know that it doesn't mean you're bad at it if it's hard, it's just hard.

That's really interesting.

And as you say about gatekeeping, I mean, I'm not a writer.

I don't have any aspirations to even try.

But I find the videos that you share on Instagram and you're talking about, you know, challenges writers might face.

I find them really interesting as a reader to sort of, you know, to see what you're doing as well.

And I think probably people are getting a lot of benefit from those.

I think that's really lovely that you do that.

So when you look back on your career so far, do you have any moments that really stand out that make you want to pinch yourself, that you just can't believe that's happened?

And if you were to give somebody who's listening today some advice, if they were desperate to get started, what advice would you give them?

Well, my advice is always the same to aspiring authors, which is the bit where most aspiring authors seem to trip up is that they don't finish the manuscript.

And it is very easy to tinker with the first 30,000 words to start and start again and start again.

And even if it feels wrong and, you know, you might delete it, which I do often delete my work in progress, as people who follow me online know.

I think there is a magic in getting to the end because for me, I can't.

I don't have the right brain to do plot and character and prose all in one draft.

I have to have the sort of lump of clay on the table, metaphorically, that you would then mould.

So my advice is always to finish the draft.

And as for standout moments in my career, well, this will tell you all you need to know.

In the year that I got married, on New Year's Eve, my husband asked me what my highlight of the year had been.

And I said, getting Reese's Book Club.

So romantic.

I know.

Well, that was incredible.

It was, it was one of the most eye popping moments.

Did you get to meet her or speak to her.

I haven't met her.

And it's funny, I was actually supposed to be in LA in October, but I got hand, foot and mouth, couldn't travel and I was covered in spots.

So even if I had been well enough, which I wasn't, I wouldn't have been able to go.

So, yeah, that was a very unfun, um, cancellation email to send.

Um, God bless toddlers.

But, um, yeah, I.

I got the email sort of on New York time, but I was in.

And I just didn't go to bed.

I couldn't sleep.

I was absolutely.

I was pregnant as well and I was knackered, but I was completely wired and you can't tell anyone either.

So I could tell my husband.

That was that.

And so you kind of can't process it in a way.

And, you know, I had had seven books published over here, so I was quite long in the tooth.

But that sort of made it more anticipatory because I knew what a needle mover it was.

And my husband is used to hyperbole from me, but I said to him, this is like going to change our lives.

And I'm sure he hears that all the time, but I was right.

And.

And it was only months later that he was like, oh, yeah, it's a really big deal.

Like, he didn't really know.

But I would say that was, yeah, one of the.

One of those moments where you're just like, jesus, I don't know how to process this.

Well, so well deserved.

It was a brilliant, brilliant book.

And I'm sure she's keeping an eye on your others as well, so maybe you'll be back there one day.

So this season I've introduced something new.

We've got some listener questions keeping it fresh over here.

So the first one comes from Wendy Reads books on Instagram, who has pre ordered Famous last words.

Good move.

You're gonna love it.

Well, actually, by the time you listen to this, you will have read it already.

Hopefully so.

But Wendy would like to know how you spend your days writing.

Are you a plotter or a pantser?

So fly by the seat of your pants.

I.

Well, both, actually.

And I've only recently realized this because I would have said before that I'm a plotter because I do do a full synopsis, and I have to do a full synopsis before I start writing.

But what actually happens to me in the course of writing that draft, even though I follow the synopsis, I realize usually about 80% through.

Unfortunately, I have a kind of eureka moment and realize what the novel really ought to be.

And it usually.

The hook always stays really.

But so often I change the narrator, I change the format, I change the way in.

And I was talking about this and another author was in the audience, and they came up to me at the end of the event and they said, you're not a plotter.

You're just pretending.

And I was like.

I am actually like a kind of.

I do fly by the seat of my pants.

Because what I'm exploring in that first draft is kind of what takes my interest, and that forms the bedrock for draft two for me.

So regretfully, I'm not as much of a plotter as I thought I was.

Well, your method is working fabulously.

So however you do it, please keep doing it.

I don't know.

I mean, I was talking to Lisa Jewell recently about words written.

And so an average thriller is 100,000 words.

And I asked her how many words she writes in order to publish a hundred thousand words.

And she said about 120,000.

And she asked me, and my answer is a million.

That is the extent to which I write and rewrite and rewrite and delete and draft, which is horribly inefficient work.

It is for you.

But as a reader, I mean, obviously Lisa Jewell's books are brilliant too, so.

But your books are brilliant.

They are.

I mean, they are brilliant.

So it's.

It's a form of.

Oh, I didn't do that.

Right.

So I'll sort of start again.

It's a form of perfectionism.

But I guess as you're sort of.

Sorry, you're probably.

As you're sort of writing and reading it, realizing there's a hole or something that's not quite, you know.

So you probably to have to play with it to make it so believable.

Yeah.

And I do think in recent books, I do more of that in my head.

I haven't started my next book, and I normally would have just dove in by now and thought, I'll work it all out.

But I am hesitating because I know it's got a twist at 20%, which I've never really done, and I know that the mechanism isn't working yet, so I haven't started.

So I'm hoping if I do more upfront thinking, then I might be able to change a little bit.

But I'm slightly scared because I've usually always started by January and it's nearly February and I haven't yet.

But I'll let you know.

I'm sure you will, and I'm sure it will be brilliant.

Thank you.

So, our last listener question.

This comes from book reviews of Becky on YouTube.

Who would like to know whether you ever get writer's block and what you do to get out of that?

Well, it's funny you should say, because I am sort of struggling to get going on my next.

And for me, writer's block is nearly always a problem with the manuscript.

Very rarely is it a personal problem.

I'm fortunate that that's never happened to me.

But when I can't write or don't want to or I'm uninspired, there's usually something in the plot that is preventing me from emotionally engaging.

So I had a big twist in Famous Last words that I took out, which was that it was going to all have been recorded.

So you see the cameras rolling and you see the husband pacing with the gun, but when they go in, he wasn't there.

And I was so wedded to that twist because I thought, how interesting.

And.

But I just couldn't get it to work.

I tried multiple.

Multiple.

Like, why would you ever do that?

And where is he?

And, like, why did they think he was in there?

Like, the police generally know where people are.

So it was so hard.

And in the end, I just thought, there's a reason that this isn't working.

And it is because it's just outlandish.

And so I took it out and it pained me, but then I could really get going with the block in a more realistic way.

Although I still think about it, and I do still think, wouldn't it have been good if I could get that to work?

But I just couldn't.

I don't know why.

I just popped into my head.

It's not similar to it at all, but Wrong Place, Wrong Time stuck into my head.

Then maybe it's like the wrong plot for that book, but later on you'll.

You know, there was a little subplot in Wrong Place, Wrong Time about a baby in a car.

Do you remember?

I can't remember that bit, no.

Yeah.

So when somebody steals a car as part of a crime ring, there's a baby in it.

And that had been a.

An actual book that I abandoned, which I've never done before.

Or since.

And the hook was, what do you do if you steal a car opportunistically and there's baby in the bag?

And I loved the.

I know exactly.

Give it right back is exactly why I didn't ever write that book.

Because a.

It's hard to have a likable character who steals a car.

And I thought, okay, maybe she's like, desperate.

Like, her car's broken down, she's got a last chance job interview.

I could have got that to work.

But the point at which there's a baby in it, 100% of good people take the baby to the police station.

Like, and I was trying to get it to work, like, maybe.

Because what I wanted to do with that book was have somebody steal the baby, realize there was something in the car that meant the baby wasn't safe with its parents, and keep it, and then have a midpoint twist where they kept the baby.

And it was 10 years later.

But I just couldn't get it to work.

So I put the subplot into wrong place, wrong time.

Many years later, where, you know, it.

It's fitting and works and isn't outrageous because the people stealing the car are already organized criminals.

Yeah, but those things, sometimes you have to just.

You have to let your darlings go.

And that is.

It's a hard part of the job that is because I can remember those storylines because I was so enamored with them.

But ultimately they don't serve the readership, which I have a contract with the reader to.

To write a realistic thriller, I think.

And that sort of first and foremost is what's important to me.

Would there be a place for something like that in short stories?

Would you ever write short stories?

Short stories.

Sometimes I do use twists that don't work for a novel in a short story.

I recently wrote one, which is.

It's been published, so I can talk about it for the Express about somebody in a rating and the setup seems kind of weird and they're talking about their neighbors in quite a derogatory way.

And the twist is that they're in prison.

It obviously wouldn't work for a full novel because, like, the moment they go to a canteen, you're like, what is this?

But it worked for a thousand word short story.

So, yeah, sometimes I do put my more outrageous ideas into short form fiction.

Yeah, that's great.

I haven't read any of your short stories.

I have to go and check them out.

Actually.

Famous Last Words hits the shelves on 30 January.

It is a brilliant read.

It kept me on the edge of my seat both times that I read it.

So please do pick it up.

You will not regret it.

So, before we move on to talk about Gillian's book choices, just remind listener that all of the books that we mention will be listed in the show notes, so they'll be easy for you to find afterwards.

So, Gillian, how did you find choosing your five books?

Was it easy for you?

I enjoyed it, actually.

Initially, I thought I might do a sort of Desert Island Discs and span things that were important to me when I was younger.

But actually, I've chosen five novels that directly impacted the my work and were really instructive in the sort of fiction I want to write.

So I think if you like my fiction, you would like these.

I haven't read any of these.

Oh, my God.

I know.

I know exactly.

I know exactly the one you're going to be like.

I can't believe I read that.

The seminal one fiction, it has been.

Chosen four times on this series.

So when I did it on Instagram.

As well, it changed your life.

You must read it.

Nobody has managed to convince me to pick this one up yet, so maybe it'll be you.

So do you want to start off by telling us about your first book then, Julian?

Yes.

So my first book is the Pact by Jodi Picoult.

And I.

This novel, like, haunted me.

I still still think about scenes from it.

One scene in particular that's a huge spoiler, but it's about two teenagers who.

One of them ends up dead, and the other one says in court that it was a suicide pact that he didn't go through with, and he's brought to court on a charge of murder.

And there's something epic about both families knew each other.

These two teenagers, sort of parents, they go way back in that sort of family friend way that I've not really seen written about in fiction.

And it's just.

I mean, it's part legal thriller, it's part love story.

You can see how that would directly inspire me.

I think Jodi Picoult is just the absolute master of that genre blending.

So, yeah, I.

I now want to go and reread it, so I've convinced myself of how good it is.

Oh, this sounds amazing.

I've read a lot of Jody's books, but not this one.

I don't know how I've missed it.

I love how she explores these big topics and starts conversations.

I think that's so important.

And yeah, when I read the synopsis for this One I was like, how have I not read it?

So I'll have to go back and pick this one up.

I think it's an older book, isn't it?

Was it published like late 90s?

Yeah, yeah, I read, I read a lot of them as a teenager.

Um, and quite a few went ill because I was ill when I was 21.

So I, I actually think I read a vast amount of her back catalogue on my, on my sick bed.

Inspiring you.

That's amazing.

Okay, so that's your first choice.

So I'm going to add that one to my basket because I have no shame.

So book number two is the one?

Yes.

This is the, the book everybody should read called the Time Traveller's Wife by Audrey Niffenegar.

Oh, you've actually got it as well.

I'll just pause you start reading.

Give me a minute.

It's quite big actually.

Come on.

I mean, yes, this is a non linear love story about a ordinary every woman and a man who against his wishes time travels.

So she is periodically left alone for weeks sometimes because he sort of jumps in time and goes missing and then returns.

And it was definitely inspiration for Wrong Place, Wrong Time for me.

It's time travel done right and logically and the writing is gorgeous and the ending is surprising and yeah, it is really perfect.

So I really do hope I have convinced you to read it.

This has been picked by Kate Sawyer who wrote the Stranding.

And is it this family?

Katie Marsh, who Murder on the Dance Floor.

Yeah.

Sophie Irwin, Ladies Guide to Fortune Hunting.

So all these wonderful authors have told me and lots of people on Instagram, whenever this comes up, they're like, I can't believe you haven't read it.

I don't know why it intimidates me.

I also felt the same and I am not.

And this is probably controversial, but I'm not very good with literary fiction because I like to be gripped and I like a lot of plot.

But it, it is Pacey.

So if you're worried about that, it's very gripping.

I think it's probably also one of those things like the hyped book.

Do you know when like everyone's like, you'll love it, you'll love it, then I think, oh, I don't want to read it.

Okay.

It's like when you have a hyped book and mine is not in that league, but people sort of like to tell you they didn't like your hyped book.

And I do understand the impulse actually.

Like my husband very proudly has never Watched Titanic and it is like quite an important thing to him.

But it is.

It's so hard, isn't it?

Because you think.

I mean, like, whenever you say you've got a book coming out, I get really excited, which must be a lot of pressure.

Not just for me, obviously.

Loads of people are excited about your bookshelf.

Better like it.

Especially after a big.

A big book like Wrong Place, Wrong Time, that, you know, people.

Most people really liked that book.

So, yes, the follow up was hard.

But had you started writing.

Was it just another bit Miss Just Another Missing Person?

Yeah.

Had you already started writing that before you discovered how well Wrong Place was doing, or.

Yes and no, I had not delivered it when I found out about Rhys.

And Wrong Place, Wrong Time was just that golden child.

They don't come along very often, but it sort of wrote itself, partially, maybe because of lockdown.

I had a lot of time.

I didn't have a child then.

So I was just walking dog and thinking and writing.

But was just a amazing writing experience and just another missing person was a problem child.

So I knew that Wrong Flesh, Wrong Time was going to do big things by the time that I was writing Just Another Missing Person.

But I'm glad that I.

I wanted to do something completely different.

And I think it would have been a mistake for me to write another speculative novel.

And I have since had another speculative idea and I'm not writing it yet because I think you've got to time that sort of thing quite carefully.

I in no way want to look like, oh, I fancy doing a Wrong Place, Wrong Time again.

It was really successful, you know, that sort of cynical feeling you might get when, you know, when you kind of see an author sort of try and replicate something.

So I have this speculative idea sitting around doing nothing, and I'm writing something actually at the moment that is very high concept, but it's not speculative.

And it feels like the exact right next thing for me to do.

You're getting me crazy excited about all these books.

Like, when we're offline, I'll tell you the hook.

I'm like, I want to read them now.

I know.

I mean, I know.

And this is the weird imbalance of being an author is it takes me a year and so much heartache and I don't eat and sleep when a book's not going well.

Like, I talk about it endlessly and then people read them in 24 hours and I'm like, huh?

Like, how is this.

Like, how is this fair?

And then they're like, where's the next one.

I'm like, it's another year, sorry.

I know.

I try not to do that.

I know I did it once.

I can't think of which author.

And I was like, oh, I can't wait to see what she does next.

It hasn't even.

Because it was approved.

It hasn't even come out.

And you want that.

I'm like, oh, sorry.

It's lovely though, that feeling of like, you know, I get that feeling when I sink into an absolutely fantastic book.

And I'm so honored that I provide that experience to some people.

What sort of feel?

Feedback.

You do get lots of lovely feedback from readers on your books.

I bet you do.

I get all sorts of feedback.

Let's concentrate on the lovely.

Yeah.

Good and bad.

Do you know the most moving message I ever got was somebody that said they were taking their time to parent their child differently because of wrong place, wrong time.

And that is like one honor because they realized how fast the years were going by.

I was thinking about that child's life is like different because of my novel.

Like that's mad to me.

And that's that sort of feedback that's the absolute best for me.

That's incredible.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay, we'd sidetracked back, back onto your books.

Let's go on to book number three.

Number three is Apple Tree Yard by Louise Doughty.

And this was the first thriller I read that that I thought, I want to write a thriller like that.

It's about an affair between a middle aged woman and man.

And it's very simple.

All, all it is is that they are in a courtroom and you know that they had an affair and you don't really know who's on trial and who's a witness for a while.

But what it does is it puts the relationship on the stand.

And it's a perfect blend of a sort of moody exploration of what it means to fall in love meets crime because somebody ends up on trial.

Very serious crime.

And the writing is beautiful and it's really actually about what it means to be a sort of late, middle aged woman who feels invisible.

It's definitely like a meditation on that.

Um, but it's, it's fantastic.

And I had no idea where it was going either.

Um, so yeah, it's the first thing I read that really blends women's fiction and crime.

I think actually purely.

I'm gonna have to read that one now as well.

This is really dangerous.

I'm terrible.

I, I used to come away and be like, I'm buying this.

I'm buying this.

Then there's still books on my shelves from when I did these on Instagram that I was like, that sounds amazing.

There's too many books, aren't there?

This is why I never really reread books, because I think there's so many books out there I want to read.

I know, but then sometimes I just can't help myself.

Okay, let's move on to book number four.

Gillian.

Okay.

This book completely changed the trajectory of what I write.

It's you don't know me by Imran Mahmoud.

And, I mean, I don't write anything like this.

In a way, it is.

The whole novel is a speech by a defendant, accuser, murder.

A young black man accused of murder.

And he thinks the police are institutionally racist against him, which no doubt they are.

And so he sacks his lawyer and he takes the stand, and he tells the story of why he has been falsely accused in his own words.

Um, and it's the sort of pitch that I thought, I won't be able to read a whole speech.

Like, I won't be able to concentrate.

But it's amazing.

And, God, it's about.

It's about organized crime, it's about gangs, it's about racism, it's about young men.

It's a love story.

Like, it is so fantastic.

And the evidence against this kid is overwhelming.

And he goes through it.

Each part is divided up into why he was found over a body with a smoking gun, you know, and it tells the story of how he met and fell in love with this woman whose house was full of books.

She was a reader, so she used to sit on a chair made of books.

And how ultimately that led to his downfall.

It's incredibly good.

What could be possibly be wrong with loving a reader?

Yeah, exactly.

I know.

It's perfect.

That sounds amazing.

It's.

So it's all told in a speech from him.

Yeah.

Wow.

But, I mean, there is little difference between a monologue and a first person narrative, actually.

True.

Yeah.

So you do, you know, you do get sort of signals that he's speaking.

So he might say, the thing is, your honor.

But then he will say, I met her on a rainy Tuesday or whatever, you know, so it's like a first person narrative.

But I mean, it's so amazingly inventive.

Yeah.

Just for that alone, that's.

Oh, gosh.

Okay.

Guess what I've just written down here.

ADD ADD okay, that sounds brilliant as well.

Yeah.

Okay, let's move on to your last book then.

So this is missing, presumed by the late and very brilliant Susie Steiner.

And this is.

I don't really read police procedurals very often.

Um, but this character is a.

A menopausal woman in the police who.

She is so funny and so dry and so compelling.

Her narration as Manon Bradshaw, this police officer, it.

It felt like going out for coffee with a friend.

I was not reading a police procedural.

I was just having a great time with this leading lady.

So it's a masterclass in character.

I wish I could write a character that well.

You do.

Well, I haven't read that, but I'm sure you do.

People fell in love with this character.

Like, it was major.

She was always really interesting to me just now thinking.

So obviously your books, you know, there's a strong female focus.

And then.

So you've picked three or four books written by women as well.

Something I often think about women who write thrillers and sort of crime.

You're all really lovely.

Like, do you ever freak yourself out when you're sort of doing all your research?

Because I know if I read, I.

I tend to sort of break up.

I don't read, like, historical fiction back to back or thrillers back to back.

I try to mix up.

But I know if I do read a few thrillers, I find I start to get a little bit jittery.

Do you have interesting.

Do you ever feel that or.

Not very often.

Because you're brave.

It's kind of like if you're on set, on a movie set with fake blood, you're not scared.

And that's sort of how it is in the writing.

I'm very often thinking quite mechanically about how I can make a reader feel something or make an assumption that I then use for a twist.

I recently read a thriller called Night Watching.

Have you read this?

No.

Oh, my God.

Another recommendation.

I know.

Writing it down.

Well, it really did scare me, actually.

I blurbed it as the most gripping thriller I've ever read, which I've obviously never said that before.

And it's about a woman who is home with her two children, but otherwise alone, and she hears a footstep on the stairs.

And the entire novel, I mean, it is scary, but the entire novel plays out closed set.

She finds a hiding place in the house, and she hides from this intruder.

And about 20% in, she sees him through a crack in a door.

And she realizes she knows him and she knows why he's there.

And it.

It is so good, you think she won't be able to land it.

And I literally Read it all night, but I was quite scared, so.

So it's not for the faint of heart, but it's super.

See, I want to read that now, but I know I like being stressed with thrillers.

I like them when they sort of stress.

It was more stressful than scary because you're just rooting for her.

And it's really about how she mothers her children because at one point she does something that puts the children first, but it puts her in, really.

She makes run for it, basically.

Oh, I don't read it, but use.

The children in the hiding place.

It's really heartbreaking and amazing.

Sorry, I got a tickle.

Sorry.

That sounds amazing.

So, okay, so we've got the last difficult question, I'm afraid, Jillian, if you could only read one of those books again.

I know you don't like rereading, but if you could only have one of those books again, which one would you pick?

It would be, you don't know me.

Okay.

Which is one of the only books I have ever reread.

Oh, really?

Yeah, because I actually, I.

You.

I learned a lot about writing through reading that twice.

And it's so amazing and moody and interesting and political and Imran has become a good friend of mine because I liked the book so much.

People think I recommend my friend's books, but I actually made friends with him because I was like, I'm obsessed with your book.

So, yeah, it would be that one, I think.

Oh, that sounds amazing.

Well, I'm gonna add them all.

I was hoping you'd say the Time Traveller's Wife so we could buddy read it together.

Yeah, I know.

I'm whiskey through.

You will.

You will not regret reading any of them.

I think I will make the Time Traveller's Wife one of my 20, 25 goals.

How exciting.

This year.

Oh, the pressure.

Oh, Gillian, I'm excited for you to.

Like, become a fan, like 20 years after it was first published or whatever.

Always last to the party.

I will get there one day.

Oh, Gillian, it has been so lovely.

I have loved chatting with you today.

Thank you so much for your time.

It's been brilliant.

Thank you so much.

I loved that conversation with Julian McAllister.

Wasn't she so interesting and really inspiring?

I really hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did.

So when we stopped recording, Gillian did let me in to a little secret.

She told me what she's working on next.

And I have to tell you, it sounds amazing, but I'm not going to tell you anything about it because my lips are sealed.

So obviously we recorded this episode back in January and since then I have read Night Watching and I can tell you it is every bit as brilliant and terrifying as Gillian said.

So definitely one I would recommend.

Famous Last Words is out now in paperback.

It is a gripping read, one I would highly recommend, so please do pick up a copy.

I really hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did.

I'll be back next week chatting to another author where we'll be exploring the books that have shaped their lives, and I hope that you'll join me for that episode too.

In the meantime, if you could take the time to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast, and most importantly, tell your friends about it, I would be so grateful.

Thanks for listening and see you next week.

Sam.