Bugs: your dog’s been eating them anyway—why not make it official? In this episode of Barking Mad, Jordan and Dr. Steph dig deep into the world of insect-based pet nutrition—from black soldier fly larvae to crickets to mealworms. You’ll hear from scientists, brand leaders, and strategists about the surprising nutritional benefits, sustainability wins, and cultural hurdles of feeding bugs to our pets. Whether you’re intrigued or totally grossed out, this episode will challenge what you thought you knew about both “ick” and innovation.

Helpful Links

🦗 Learn more about the companies and brands featured in today’s episode:

• North American Coalition for Insect Agriculture (NACIA): https://www.nacia.org/  
• Enviroflight: https://www.darlingii.com/enviroflight
• Protix: https://protix.com/
• Entosystem: https://entosystem.com/en/
• Ynsect: https://www.ynsect.com/
• Yora Pet Foods: https://yorapets.com/uk/
• Tuggs: https://www.tuggs.uk/
• Wilder Harrier: https://www.wilderharrier.com/

🔬 Check out Protix’s cutting-edge research on the nutritional benefits of black soldier fly-based dog and cat food: https://protix.com/discovery-centre

🦐 The surprising similarity of bugs and crustaceans:  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/you-might-think-of-shrimp-as-bugs-of-the-sea-but-a-remarkable-discovery-shows-the-opposite-bugs-are-actually-shrimp-of-the-land-180986303/

🤔 Did you know there are already bugs in your food? Read more here: https://bsmpartners.net/insights/creepy-crawly-cuisine-when-banning-synthetics-comes-with-tradeoffs/

🌱 Tune in to our previous sustainability episodes

• ♻️ Is Recyclable Pet Food Packaging A Lie? Unraveling The Pet Industry’s Plastic Waste Problem: https://bsmpartners.net/barking-mad-podcast/is-recyclable-pet-food-packaging-a-lie-unraveling-the-pet-industrys-plastic-waste-problem
• 🍎 One Man’s Trash Is Another Dog’s Treasure: The Story of Upcycled Pet Food: https://bsmpartners.net/barking-mad-podcast/one-mans-trash-is-another-dogs-treasure-the-story-of-upcycled-pet-food
• 🚜 The Beautiful Story of Regenerative Agriculture: Does the Future of Pet Food Start with Soil?: https://bsmpartners.net/barking-mad-podcast/the-beautiful-story-of-regenerative-agriculture-does-the-future-of-pet-food-start-with-soil
• 🐱 Looking for Love: Swiping Right on Sustainable Cat Litter: https://bsmpartners.net/barking-mad-podcast/looking-for-love-swiping-right-on-sustainable-cat-litter

Show Notes

00:00 – Inside the Episode

02:45 – Why Bugs?

04:44 – Current Regulatory Approval

06:12 – The Buzz on BSFL Nutrition: Brain Fuel, Bacteria-Fighting Peptides, and Chitin

16:48 – Mealworm Nutrition for Pets: Low-Fat, Natural Fiber, and Hypoallergenic

19:29 – The Crunch on Crickets: Complete Protein, Essential Vitamins, and Chitin

20:20 – Unearthing the Sustainability Story

23:52 – Are Insects Tasty to Our Pets?

25:10 – Sticker Shock

28:12 – The Ick Factor

30:46 – A Marketer’s Perspective

39:54 – The More You Know

42:01 – Final Thoughts

44:30 – Today’s Key Takeaways

Jordan Tyler: If you're listening to this while you're unpacking your groceries, you may want to sit down and brace yourself.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Why? Well, we're about to let you in on the food industry's best kept secret.

Jordan Tyler: There are a certain number of insect parts—yep, bugs—allowed by the FDA and various food products. For example, take ground oregano. For every 10 grams of ground oregano, the FDA allows an average of no more than 1,250 insect fragments to be present. For crushed oregano, the allowed average is no more than 300 insect fragments. And these kinds of allowances, pervade so many common food products that we know and love—peanut butter, chocolate, coffee, other spices and herbs, tomato paste… nothing is safe.

The FDA describes this as a natural or unavoidable defect, and because it doesn't pose a harm to our health, food manufacturers are allowed to have limited levels of insect parts, rodent filth, foreign matter, parasites, and mold in their products.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: We're not sharing this to scar you for life. We're sharing it because there are bugs in our food, whether we like it or not, and not a lot of people know that. But what if the unavoidable defects in our food could be refined as powerful proteins and other nutritional sources for our pets?

Jordan Tyler: Sounds pretty wild, but it's exactly what we're going to dig into today: the rise of insect-based pet food. We're going way beyond the “ick factor” to look at the real nutritional science, sustainability statistics, and current challenges standing between your pet and novel nutrition.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: We'll ask: can insect protein provide the health benefits pets need? What are the safety and regulatory landscape? Why is it so expensive? And do pets actually like the taste? We've tapped experts across the spectrum, from researchers and entrepreneurs to coalition leaders, to answer the question: is insect protein the next frontier in ethical, functional pet food, or just another weird fad?

Jordan Tyler: Get ready to bug out.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Welcome to Barking Mad, a podcast by BSM Partners. We're your hosts, Dr. Stephanie Clark—

Jordan Tyler: —and I’m Jordan Tyler. Welcome back to our sustainability series, and you can find other sustainability focused episodes that have to do with the pet industry in the show notes for today's episode. But for today, we are exploring the realm of insect ingredients in pet food.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: We all know that Earth's population is rising and so is our meat consumption. Ah. And for whatever reason, or maybe too many reasons, pets now outnumber kids in many parts of the world, meat production is growing at around 1% annually compared to at least four to 5% increase in pet food demand annually. AKA, not enough meat for all them bowls.

Jordan Tyler: Right, and when you factor in the higher cost for food and mounting sustainability pressures, we're having to get creative with where we get our protein from in order to feed the growing population of both pets and people. So why not eat bugs? Well, it's a little cultural and don't just take it from me. Today we have Aaron Hobbs, Executive Director for the North American Coalition for Insect Agriculture or NACIA, which is on a mission to accelerate education and awareness around insects as food.

Aaron Hobbs: People have been consuming insects and insects have been a regular part of animals’ diets since animals have walked the face of the earth, both two-legged and four, outside of North America, right? So, you know, even today people consume insects, something like 70% of the world consume insects as a regular part of their diet. That's not Arkansas, or Utah, or Texas, or Missouri—not part of our regular diet, but it is the rest of the world.

Jordan Tyler: This is because underneath their hard shelled, creepy crawly exterior is a wealth of nutritional benefits without such high environmental costs as some of the more traditional proteins.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, I guess when you think about it, Jordan, it's not really weird or gross or even strange, but can you help our listeners understand how insects made their way even into pet food?

Dr. Stephanie Clark: I just looked it up. As of today, black soldier fly larvae oil is actually approved in adult dog and cat food. So, while the dried larvae isn't allowed or isn't approved in adult cat, the oil is.

Aaron Hobbs: You know, our ultimate goal is all species so that any animal we can use the meal—we can use the meal that either has the oil in it or has been defatted or we can sell just the oil. That's the ultimate goal. Today we have the most opportunity with the black soldier fly, and we're working to catch up cricket and mealworm definitions.

Jordan Tyler: So, from a regulatory perspective, still kind of limited here in the US, but it's really accelerating. And then over in Europe, the kind of AAFCO equivalent over there is called FEDIAF, and FEDIAF has approved eight insect species for use in pet food, and the three most common are black soldier fly larvae, yellow mealworms, and crickets.

So, we're pretty early on in this whole insect agriculture movement, right? We've been farming cows and chickens and pigs and sheep for like centuries, but we've really only been at the insect agriculture game for a decade or so, and that means a lot of the studies and research that we've done so far have been really focused on the safety of these ingredients. And now that we've kind of established that they are safe for pets through this research we're starting to move into, okay, what does it taste like? How good is the nutrition? You know, what functional health benefits can this really offer a pet? So, let's get the buzz on nutrition.

Jordan Tyler and Dr. Stephanie Clark: Bzzzz bzzz bzzzzzzz…..

Jordan Tyler: Starting with Liz Koutsos, President of Enviroflight, a black soldier fly ingredient producer that's tasked with researching and developing high quality, nutritious, and insect-based ingredients for animals.

Liz Koutsos: On the nutrition side, obviously the insect derived ingredients offer a lot of essential nutrition. So, everybody thinks about protein, so we can start there. But the BSFL protein itself is a really high-quality, highly digestible protein. It's got all the essential amino acids that dogs and cats need, a so it can be an alternative to any traditional animal protein source.

And then beyond those amino acids and the protein that comes from black soldier flow larva meal, we have the oil component. That's a really, really cool ingredient because it's really enriched in lauric acid. So, lauric acid is found in nature only in coconut oil and palm kernel oil and in BSFL oil. It's also a really neat fatty acid for animal and human nutrition because it's really, really digestible and it crosses over the gut barrier and the blood-brain barrier really easily.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: We have a blood-brain barrier and that basically is a barrier that breaks. Or separates the potential bad things that get into the bloodstream from going to your brain. It's our protective mechanism. However, RIC acid, which is found in insects, particularly black soldierly larvae, that can actually cross the blood brain barrier.

And you're thinking, whoa, wait—Steph, I thought you just said we don't want things to cross that, we don't want things to go to your brain. However, lauric acid is really, really, really good fuel for your brain. And if we're going to talk about gaining some bite-sized knowledge, lauric acid from insects is the way to go.

Jordan Tyler: I never knew that, and I've heard so many people talk about the blood-brain barrier, and I think that that was the easiest way to understand it. So, thank you, now I understand what the blood-brain barrier is.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Do not pass. It's a no-go, unless you're lauric acid. Come on Laura, you can come on in.

Liz Koutsos: Black soldier fly larvae are unique compared to other insects that they have a proper calcium to phosphorus ratio. So, it's really important when you feed calcium and phosphorus that you have a one-to-one ratio so that bones develop properly. And black soldier fly larvae are one of the few commercialized insects that have a proper—they actually more like a two-to-one calcium to phosphorus ratio.

Black soldier fly larvae also are highly enriched in vitamins. They have the essential amount of vitamins for dogs and cats for almost every water-soluble, or B vitamin, and for a couple of the fat-soluble vitamins as well. So, they really are a complete nutrient package.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Honestly, there is way more to insects than just protein. I know we keep talking about insect protein, insect protein, and even in the pet food sphere. It's always referred to as insect protein, but they're also a really great source of fats and oils like we had just talked about, and there's functional compounds that benefit our pet's health and wellbeing.

Jordan Tyler: There's also Omega-3 fatty acids like DHA and EPA, which are great for brain and joint health. They provide glucosamine, antioxidants…

Dr. Stephanie Clark: I was going to go into like why something that's not aquatic or Marine has DHA and EPA, but maybe we can get into that later.

Jordan Tyler: Ron and I have this running joke and it's: shrimps is bugs. Because shrimps is bugs.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah.

Jordan Tyler: Um, that's all there is to it, but I came across a really interesting article, I think it was from The Smithsonian that were like, okay, but actually, think about it this way: what we know about evolution, right? From like sea creatures to land creatures?

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah.

Jordan Tyler: Technically, if shrimps is bugs, bugs is actually shrimps.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: I mean, and that's where the DHA and EPA is coming from. If anyone's going to explain it, I think that pretty much explains it.

Jordan Tyler: But like people used to see lobster as, like, the bug of the sea, right? Like, we used to not feed it in restaurants or anywhere. We would feed it to prisoners because we refused to eat it. It was a completely cultural thing. And then somebody ate a lobster and was like, “This is awesome.” Probably put some butter on it and they were like, “Wait a minute, this is actually delicious,” and then now it's like a delicacy. So just kind of goes to say some things we think are gross, actually aren't gross and end up being fan favorites down the road. So, keep an open mind.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: I mean, they do creepy crawly, they're surrounded by a hard shell with some good media insides, so…

Jordan Tyler: Jointed legs, exoskeleton, segmented body—I think those are the three things that crustaceans and insects—I know, I went deep down this rabbit hole and I will never forget it.

So, but anyway, back to bugs and the nutritional compounds that make them pretty powerful ingredients for functional health. Another super fascinating one is antimicrobial peptides, which probably going to need an explainer on that one too, but let's hear from another guest, George Gardner, Brand Representative at UK-based Yora Pet Foods, to learn more.

George Gardner: So antimicrobial peptides, which our insects have evolved over millennia as basically their own form of an immune system—they don't have white blood cells and all these kind of special, highly evolved things to protect their bodies against bacteria or microbes or pathogens—what they do have is these built-in defenses which kind of help to repel and deal with harmful bacteria, which, in your dog gut or your cat's gut, can massively improve kind of defense against harmful bacteria, helping to improve kind of the gut microbiome overall. It's also been shown to improve oral health as well, so reducing volatile sulfur compounds in the mouth, which leads to kind of poor oral health in dogs and cats, but also kind of increasing bad breath and stuff like that.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah, that's pretty wild, and all of those benefits George mentioned have been studied in-depth by a company called Protix in the Netherlands. Today we have Piotr Postepski, Chief Commercial Officer at Protix, which has done some compelling research on the potential skin, gut, and oral health benefits of BSFL based pet food.

Piotr Postepski: We managed to prove, so far, many functional benefits of our ingredients, and I will start from antimicrobial peptides. They are working in a very similar way as antibiotics. Basically, they are killing bacteria cells, and it has an impact on the health of animals.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Breaking it down literally, so we have proteins, right, which are made of a bunch of amino acids, but peptides are those little amino acid chains. So: protein [at the top, then] peptides, [then] amino acids. But these peptides have really neat functions as they are needed for like enzymatic activity. They've got some antimicrobial properties. They are needed to help nutrients be absorbed.

Jordan Tyler: Okay, so, enzyme activity, antimicrobial properties, nutrient absorption… does that, like, roughly equate to breaking down nutrients and getting them to where they need to go, protecting us from bad bacteria—

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah.

Jordan Tyler: —and kind of coming full circle with helping us absorb more nutrients so that we can actually use them in our body?

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah.

Jordan Tyler: Alright. Now I know what a peptide is. Let's go.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, having peptides that are antimicrobial, or maybe used again in the gut microbiome to help with nutrient absorption, coming from insects is just another bonus or another benefit to the insect protein.

Jordan Tyler: Super interesting. Coming back to lauric acid, this is also playing a key role in the skin, oral and gut microbiome benefits for pets, as well as a compound called chitin, according to Piotr.

Piotr Postepski: Chitin is part of the insect exoskeleton. Normally it's not digested, but it's a very good substrate for commensal gut bacteria, and chitin seems to have a very positive effect on the gut microbiota and enhance the gut immunity.

Jordan Tyler: The, what the heck even is chitin… is chitin a carb?

Dr. Stephanie Clark: And to all of our mean girl girls out there? Yeah, I mean, it kind of is, right? Chitin is an insoluble fiber. And what does insoluble fiber do? It feeds our bacteria in our gut. And if you've listened to any of our episodes, you know I love talking about the gut microbiome and how we need to feed our bugs because they give us energy and they keep us healthy.

And so really not just as insect protein, but kite as a carb or an insoluble fiber for that matter. And so a lot of research is starting to emerge that there could potentially be more. Than just protein and highly digestible, or even using it as an oil, but using it as a, a gut health functional ingredient, which if you think about it, you're getting protein, you're getting oil, and you're getting gut health function… Checking a lot of boxes here.

Jordan Tyler: I mean, it packs a pretty powerful punch. So obviously tons of really compelling benefits here for pet health.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Which, I mean, is all super great, right? Like why should we go to any other insects? But there are nutritional benefits to other insects, such as mealworms. With us is Benedicte Lorette, Research and Development Director for Animal Nutrition and Health for Ynsect, a French company focused on producing mealworm ingredients for the use in animal feed and pet food.

Benedicte Lorette: Our mealworm ingredients are optimal for pet nutrition and also for their health. We conducted several scientific studies that show that, of course first of all they are protein-rich, and low fat, and low in ash. So, it enables weight management pet food formulation, for example.

Another important factor when you speak about protein quality is the digestibility of the protein. We showed that our mealworm ingredients have high pet food digestibility, around 90%, which is a very good value. From the nutrition side, also, mealworms are natural source of fibers, which is not the case of the other animal, traditional source of protein.

They have a hypoallergenic effect, and especially because mealworm protein are unfamiliar to the human system of pets when you shift the traditional protein sauce to mealworm. So, we showed in a study that they could significantly reduce, for example, adult skin disease in dogs relative to food sensitivities.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Let's talk about—I'm going to use this word lightly—hypoallergenic, because it's a broad term that doesn't really mean a whole. But at the same time, insects could potentially be useful for pets with allergies, even food intolerances that aren't necessarily at the allergy point, but maybe just don't settle well with their tummies. And the idea behind this is, it's a novel protein, right? Hopefully it's not one that they've been exposed to like chicken. And so, in theory, they should have less problems or less of a reaction to this, if they're eating a food with a “novel protein.”

Jordan Tyler: Isn't the term hypoallergenic, you can't really use it as a blanket statement, right, because we all have different sensitivities and allergies?

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah.

Jordan Tyler: So, to call something hypoallergenic across the board, it's like, well, it might be hypoallergenic for one pet, but it may also not be for another pet?

Dr. Stephanie Clark: If they haven't been introduced to that protein, it could be an option if your pet were to say, have a food allergy or a food intolerance to a common or a mammal protein.

But in addition, so we've talked about black soldier fly larvae, we've talked about mealworms. Now, let's get down to those hippity hoppity crickets. And even though these are super tiny, these guys pack a mighty nutritional punch. So, these guys are considered complete proteins for dogs—sorry, kitties not quite there yet for you guys— but that means that we can use cricket as a sole protein source for dogs. And again, let's chitchat about that. Chitin, it's fiber for the gut. We have that in crickets as well, but they're also a good source of iron and calcium and those B vitamins, these are all essential. So, we're not just getting a protein or an ingredient that may just have some amino acids or essential amino acids. We're getting a lot more in it.

Jordan Tyler: Right, so the nutrition is super promising, but what about sustainability? One of the reasons why insect ingredients offer such great benefits for the planet is because of their diet, which consists of food that would've otherwise been wasted. According to Christopher Warburton, Chief Scientific Officer at Entosystem, another black soldier fly larvae producer, this one based in Quebec, food waste emits methane, which has more than 20-times the impact on global warming as carbon dioxide or CO2, and through its insect ingredient operations, Entosystem is reducing both kinds of emissions.

Christopher Warburton: By not sending our feedstocks to landfill and taking them to our facility where we use them to produce proteins, oils, fertilizer, we're offsetting that production of methane. Every ton of our protein used would be able to offset almost two tons of CO2.

Jordan Tyler: And according to Harry Bremner, Founder of Tuggs, a UK-based pet food brain that's putting insects in complete-and-balanced fresh foods for dogs, there's plenty of wasted food to fuel the growth of these insects.

Harry Bremner: Roughly 30% of the food that we buy is wasted. So that's either food that is wasted when we cook it and we buy too much and there's stuff left over, could be food that we just throw out or because we keep it until after the best-before date—thirty percent. So that's a huge, huge amount insects can feed off waste like that, that even has gone beyond its best before date—well, especially because that's food that is wasted the most—and convert it about two-to-one feed conversion ratio. So, two kilograms of food waste can produce one kilogram of incredibly nutritious, edible protein. That's remarkable, right?

And they can do so in an area a really small area. So, roughly 3% of the land required for beef, for example, with a fraction of the water—we're talking one 2% of the water required for to produce beef or other proteins—and emitting, again, a fraction, you know, less than 5% of the carbon emissions of beef.

Jordan Tyler: So, Harry brings up our next sustainability point here. But before moving into the land and water use, I wanted to plug our Upcycled Ingredient episode, which launched earlier this year. We've put a link to that in the show notes if you want to check it out.

But, aside from saving food from the landfill and from the harmful methane emissions, it will give off there, insects also take up less space and take significantly fewer natural resources to produce compared to more traditional proteins, like chicken or beef.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: And just for example, Protix reports that its insect ingredient operation requires 99% less water than poultry, 99% less land than coconut oil, and the CO2 or greenhouse gas emissions impact is 78% lower than poultry. And they don't get H5N1.

Jordan Tyler: They also grow super fast, according to Christopher.

Christopher Warburton: From the moment they're born to the moment they're harvested, they grow about 10,000 times in weight, and that can be as quick as in 10 days. So that's the equivalent of a rabbit turning into an elephant, essentially.

Jordan Tyler: Alright, an elephant size bunny sounds awesome, just saying. But anyway, so we've covered nutrition and sustainability, what about palatability? Are insects yummy to our pets? Let's go with Benedicte first to hear how pets like mealworm-based diets.

Benedicte Lorette: In term of palatability, we of course have conducted several feeding trials on dogs and cats with dry formulation such as kibbles and also with wet pet food, and we showed that our mealworm protein were as palatable as a chicken one.

Jordan Tyler: What about the black soldier fly larva? I mean, I think I know the answer, but let's go back to George to confirm.

George Gardner: We describe the taste of insect protein as having kind of a nutty, cheesy taste because it's very, very rich in protein, healthy fats and minerals like calcium, which when you look about profile. It's kind of that kind of nutty, cheesy, savory kind of flavor, which tends to go down very, very well. If you describe it as cheesy, I think most people would agree there isn't a dog under the sun that doesn't like cheese.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Nutty? Check. Cheesy? Check. Highly digestible? Check. Good for the environment? Check again. Good for the gut, brain, and really the whole body? Check, check, check. So, what’s the catch here, Jordan?

Jordan Tyler: I'm glad you asked. I think one of the key catches right now is the cost. They're more expensive than pet foods with more traditional proteins. And we've talked about the same with upcycled ingredients too, right? This would've otherwise been waste. And now that we're repurposing it, why is it more expensive than, you know, your non-upcycled food product? According to Liz Koutsos, it's a scale thing, and we've got to crawl before we walk.

Liz Koutsos: We're 10 years into this maybe, you know, we've been in operation and commercial scale for, like, six. And I think our colleagues in the industry that are doing well and growing are right around six or seven years in commercial scale. That's nothing. We're still in our infancy, and that comes with higher costs.

Jordan Tyler: According to Pierre-Luc Gingras, president and owner of Vet Water, Nature's Hug and Wilder Harrier, black soldier fly larvae ingredients, while not necessarily cheap, are significantly less expensive than cricket ingredients, at least as of today.

Pierre-Luc Gingras: The pressure on the pricing is really, really hard with those proteins because the volume is so low. This is the biggest challenge for sure. The big difference is the cost of the raw ingredient. So, crickets, for example, will be $25,000 a ton, which black soldier fly will be $6,000 a ton, so it's almost five times cheaper. And the reason why it's cheaper is it's easier to do a mass prediction of those black soldier fly, and it's faster as well.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Chicken meal, a super common pet food ingredient, is around $1,200 per ton right now. So, the same amount of black soldier fly larvae ingredient is about five times more expensive than chicken meal, and the same amount of cricket ingredients is more than 20 times more expensive than chicken meal… Yikes.

Jordan Tyler: And Laura Metcalf, who serves as Account Manager at Barentz but brings a wealth of insect experience from previous roles with Enterra, Entosystem, and Entomo Farms, has the inside scoop on why one of these insects is currently more common than the other.

Laura Metcalf: They're very different. In terms of scale, I think the black soldier fly has some advantages and some disadvantages. Largely, it's the one that is taking over the market, let's say, although cricket still has a little bit of a foothold there. But I think a big portion of that is the scale that you can produce then in a small footprint. So, the black soldier fly larvae actually benefit from being at high density. Like, they like to have all their, their buddies close by, and so they work really well in a vertical farming sort of situation, whereas crickets kind of take up a little bit more space for the amount of biomass you can produce.

Jordan Tyler: So, the scale factor is going to be something that we're going to need to keep working on. It comes with unique challenges for each different insect. You know, black soldier fly larvae to crickets to mealworms. It also comes back to the ick factor, right? The idea that bugs are gross and shouldn't be in our food. I'm not going to rehash the opening to this episode, but it's just a totally squeamish notion. People eat bugs all the time—on purpose, on accident, on Fear Factor—and coming back to Christopher, he says it's just a part of nature.

Christopher Warburton: We're not inventing anything here. We're just industrializing a normal process. In nature, when an apple falls off the tree, it gets usually eaten away by bugs, and those bugs usually get eaten by whatever, a raccoon or a bird, and that's part of their diet. So, same thing for chickens and fish and dogs and cats—they all eat insects. So, we're just reintroducing a big part of their diet, actually, back in an industrialized way.

Jordan Tyler: I don't know about y'all, but I live in Arkansas and in the summer there's just, there's flies everywhere and it gets really buggy. I can't tell you how many times this week I have actively encouraged my dog or cat to eat a fly in the house because they're on it, right? I got other stuff I got to do. They only need to catch that fly, right? They're freeloading. And so, it's so funny to hear people talk about like, “Oh, well, I'm not going to feed my pet bugs,” but then in the same breath, you see them stalking or hunting a bug in the backyard or catching one in the house, and you're like, “Oh, good job!”

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Literally happened this morning, I was moving my dog's pet bed in my office, my office is in the basement and we have house spiders. It doesn't matter when, where, and it's probably because of all the storms they're coming inside. And I mean, this guy was pretty big, but my beagle just like didn't even think about it, just gulp. And I was like, I don't have to pick it up and take care of it. Thank you. Thank you for saving me from this massive house spider.

Jordan Tyler: So helpful. It's like, why are we micromanaging this? Why are we like blowing this up to be a bigger deal than it needs to be? If anything, because we're commercializing insect agriculture, the stuff that's coming out of these companies is going to be safer, it's going to be fortified specifically for your pet. Like you don't know where that spider's been.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Lord only knows in the Midwest.

Jordan Tyler: So, we've talked a lot about insect ingredients, insect protein, we've talked a lot about the nutritional merits that they have, the sustainability benefits that they might offer, but we're still running into issues when it comes to consumer acceptance and essentially people being interested in feeding insects to their pets. And so, we have Michael Johnson, our resident consumer strategy expert here at BSM Partners, with us today to dive deeper into: how can we sell bugs to people for their pets? Why is it so hard?

Michael Johnson: It's a really good question. I think that to set all of this up. First of all, I'm not a scientist, I am not an environmentalist, I'm a marketer, and so people bring me into projects, people bring me into their organizations for the almost exclusive purpose of how do I sell this? And when we're talking about how do we sell something, the most important part of that equation is the consumer. If you cannot find a way to make something resonate with the consumer. It doesn't matter what your product is, how great your product is, any amazing thing your product might do, it still has to have a market.

So, when we're talking about insects, I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not I think they're better for dogs or they're better for humans, or it's a better way forward—the science all bears out: these are good products. That said, if I can't find a market, it doesn't matter how good a product it is.

On the human side of things, we don't eat bugs. It's about that simple. I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but the industry, for 20 years, for 30 years, has been moving people up the quality ladder through a concept we call humanization. It essentially means our pets are our children, our pets are our family. We are going to take care of them like family, and it has been a great marketing vehicle. You know, we want better products for ourselves, we want natural products, we want fresh products, we want human grade, you know, on the human side of things. So, of course we want that on the animal side of things. Consumers have fully embraced this kind of mantra, it's how we shop for our animals. Now you're asking us in the name of goodness, in the name of ethics, in the name of the environment, in the name of everything that's holy, to feed them bugs.

I will feed them a steak or cook a meal for my dog because it's a human like I am. I'm not going to sit down and make, you know, an insect protein dinner for myself, a cricket protein dinner for myself. We just don't do it. And so, we are kind of at an interesting inflection point from a protein perspective in this industry. Most consumers would tell you it's not the wrong thing to do. Most consumers would tell you sustainability is the right thing to do, but I'm only willing to do it to a point. And in the case of insects, am I willing to eat a bug? No. And because we have conditioned people that anything that would not go in a human being, should not go in a pet, which, you know, Steph, you're a scientist, Jordan, you're smart. You know that's not true. But it's how we believe things. We're just not going to feed bugs, even if we think it's a good idea.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, do you think it's a cultural thing? Because there are certain cultures that do eat a plate of grubs or…

Michael Johnson: There are cultures that do this. I think that it remains to be seen whether or not insect protein in their pet food is a more readily accepted idea than it is over here. A lot of the countries you're talking about, however, are far more nascent in their pet industry, if that makes sense. I mean, I don't mean to sound, you know, weird or US-jingoistic or anything like that, but this is a very highly evolved consumer marketplace over here.

I'm not saying that's good, and I'm not saying that's bad. I'm just saying we're very picky and the consumer has a very strong opinion about what they will and will not do. We spend more on our pet industry than most of the countries in the world spend on, you know, on their infrastructure, on their own human food. You know, we're $150 billion pet industry over here. So, while this may work in other countries where they're more in tune to eating an insect protein, right here, we're not ready for it yet.

Jordan Tyler: Really quick, talking about being a $150 billion industry for pets in the United States. That's in between the GDPs of Morocco and Ethiopia. Just to put more of a frame of reference around that.

Michael Johnson: It's mind blowing, isn't it? It's just, it boggles the imagination how much we spend on our pets. We have advanced it to a point where it's, if you want it to be, it's what we're eating ourselves. And what we're eating ourselves are not bugs.

There was a study that came out just a month ago, and one of the things we hear a lot from, like the European Union, from UK and things like that, is they are more sustainable than we are, and that is largely true. You know, they're more dialed into that. Their regulations are stiffer. By extension, we also hear a lot that they're far more in tune as a marketplace to insect protein and this study basis said, “Well, no, they're not.” They're no more likely to want to eat these things than we are over here, even if they're more sustainable. I think the stat from the study said that 90% of consumers across at least the UK and the United States are open to eating plant protein, fewer than 20% are interested in eating a bug, and nearly 70% said there's just no way you could get me to do it.

I did a study myself a couple years ago for a manufacturer, and in that study, 90%, it was like 92%, of consumers have seen their dog or cat eat a bug. They know they do it, but there's a big difference between a quick spontaneous, you know, hunt that bug down and I'm going to make an actual economic purchase to feed you these things.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So hot potato for you—if we have all this survey data, published data saying that people are so adamant they don't want it, they don't even want to try it, why are we trying to make fetch happen?

Michael Johnson: That's a really good question. I think that a lot of the companies that are doing this are very thought-forward. I think they're very proactive. I think they are, you know, trying to do the right thing somewhere for the environment and this seems to be a good way to do it. I don't dispute that.

I read another study, and take this with a grain of salt, but this study said that the insect protein business in pet food, you know, is going to be roughly $15 billion in the next handful of years. The study also said that the insect protein business on the human side, we are going to be consuming $35 billion, something like that, worth of bugs in the next five years. And I’ve got to tell you, I don't see that. I think it's a good idea. My job isn't, you know, condoning it. My job is selling it, but the market just isn't there yet.

There are too many already human-ready, viable alternatives—I eat chicken, I eat beef, I understand these things. My pet seems to like chicken. My pet seems to like tuna. My pet seems to like all these proteins that I'm already accustomed to. I'm not yet accustomed to bugs, and it's something that's not on my menu. So, going back to these companies, I think they're trying to do the right thing. I think they're waiting and hoping for the market to come along. I think the issue right now, Steph, is really more of supply push than demand pull.

Jordan Tyler: I think it's important also to consider, you know, your pet eating a bug in the backyard is not really—it doesn't really have a sustainability story. The sustainability story comes at producing these insects at scale, and so it really does come down to if we cannot make it acceptable in the market, if we can't attract pet owners to be interested in this, to try it, like, all that sustainability benefit is lost anyway.

Michael Johnson: Yeah, you're right. Out in the backyard ,it's the Elton John-Tim Rice, you know, “Circle of Life.” In your home, it's sustainable. This is going to totally sound wrong—they're kind of solving for a problem that will be a problem, but doesn't really exist yet in the consumer's minds, right? I'm not at a point where I feel the environment is so bad, none of us should be eating meat, and I'll be feeding my dog insects when I'm ready to give up meat.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah, I think that comes back to, sustainability is just not what the consumer is looking for in a product, particularly when they're looking for a pet food. It's the health benefits. It's pretty easy to just close your eyes and pretend like you don't know what's going on with the planet, but it's pretty hard to ignore if something's wrong with your pet or if you think that they could be benefiting from something. They're right in front of you all the time, and you probably care a lot more on an immediate basis about your pet than you do you know about the wellbeing of the rest of the planet, right?

Michael Johnson: Especially to your point, if we are undereducated on exactly what the advantages to that are.

Jordan Tyler: So, while the market in the United States could definitely use some education, the market in Europe is actually a little bit more developed, they started a little sooner. But according to Piotr at Protix, there's still some education needed to really move the needle in European countries as well.

Piotr Postepski: Basically, if you enter most popular online shops, you will see quite a variety of insect-based pet food. Most of the leading European producers, they have a insect-based pet food range in their offering, and we see the market is continuously growing in Europe, while North America is at the totally different phase. The market is sort of just starting. So, we, as the industry, we have to educate, educate, and educate people about how these ingredients really work, how many functional benefits they bring, about palatability, about impact on animals, how they are produced, et cetera, et cetera. So, education is key.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Really the big thing will be getting vets on board, because—and I can speak from like a veterinary standpoint, working in clinics and emergency hospitals—we like to see the data, we want to see the research. And so, as more research is coming out potentially on the functional health claims and benefits of insects, I think that will help tilt the scale in favor for more insect protein or more insect diets.

Jordan Tyler: I think so too. I mean, even still today, more and more people are getting their information through social media, Dr. Google, online, but they still really do look to their veterinarians to provide insights on health and wellness, and even on nutrition. So, if we can get them on board to really help carry the mantle of insect ingredients and for pets that might benefit from it, I think that would make a big difference.

So, as we start to wind down today, let's get a few final thoughts from our guests. Laura, for her part is most inspired by the research coming out around the health benefits of insect ingredients for pets.

Laura Metcalf: What I'm most excited about for future research with insects is the potential for gut health benefits. We know in broad strokes that a healthy gut increases the efficiency of digestion. We're coming to learn also that our gut has connections to like our nervous system, it can influence our mental health, it absolutely influences our immune system. So, if we're nurturing that gut microbiome and that of our pets, I expect that'll be the basis of some really exciting stuff in the future.

Jordan Tyler: For George, he's working hard to debunk the ick factor and help pet owners come around to the idea that bugs could actually be great nutrition for pets. And no, it's not a conspiracy theory.

George Gardner: I know you think this is super weird and it kind of freaks you out, but we are producing this product for pets and their wellbeing. I think people so often have a concern that this is part of some kind of like new world order and we're going to impose insect protein on absolutely everyone and, you know, we're going to take away your steak and your chicken and all the things you enjoy eating and we're going to replace everything in an insect protein.

I would most like people just to understand that we are producing this for the wellbeing and benefit of pets. It is a solution for health problems that pets are currently suffering with, and that is our main priority.

Jordan Tyler: As production, scale and demand continue to grow, this space is primed to take flight, especially when you consider insect ingredients go way beyond protein to offer pets essential and functional benefits for nutrition.

Piotr Postepski: We offer so much more on top of protein, on top of fat. You cannot just compare us to a fish meal, for example, like one to one, and just measure the protein content. It's not our intention to compete with the fish meal. We see ourselves as a functional ingredient, a very powerful functional ingredient, that can be added even at the relatively low inclusion rate and have tremendous impact on health of the animal.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, are grubs the future of pet food? If our guests have anything to say about it, the answer is: maybe not for everyone, but absolutely for many.

Jordan Tyler: Insect protein won't replace chicken or beef overnight. But as we saw in this episode, it's carving out a niche where it makes sense, whether that's for pets with sensitivities, pet owners looking for sustainability, or companies just trying to do more with less.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: From functional ingredients, with microbiome benefits to more sustainable protein systems, this isn't just a trend—it could be a new category in the making. It'll be up to the industry to educate, educate, educate, and pet owners to open their minds—and their pet's diet—to a more novel approach.

Jordan Tyler: And for those willing to look past the ick, the insect opportunity is real and it's creeping and crawling its way into the future of pet food, one bowl at a time.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: If you want to learn more about sustainability initiatives across pet care, we've linked several episodes from our sustainability series in the show notes for today's episode, give us a listen and let us know what you think.

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Barky Mad. If you want to learn more about BSM partners, please visit us at www.bsmpartners.net. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite leading podcast platform, or share it with a friend to stay current on the latest pet industry trends and conversations.

Jordan Tyler: Thanks again to Aaron Hobbs, Liz Koutsos, George Gardner, Christopher Warburton, Benedicte Lorette, Laura Metcalf, Pierre-Luc Gingras, Piotr Postepski, and Harry Bremner for sharing their time and insights with us today.

We'd also like to thank our dedicated team, Ada-Miette Thomas, Neeley Bowden, Kait Wright, Cady Wolf, and Dr. Katy Miller. A special shout out to Lee Ann Hagerty and Michael Johnson in support of this episode, and to David Perez for our original music in the intro and outro. See you next time!

Jordan Tyler: The end is near.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: The end is near. Only the bugs will survive.

Jordan Tyler and Dr. Stephanie Clark: And the shrimps. [laughing]

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yes!