This is another guest episode of Behind the Bob and Carrie-Ann is talking with Kirk Millis-Ward, Director of Communications and Engagement at the Isle of Wight NHS Trust. Kirk is also the Executive sponsor for the Disability and Long-Term Conditions Network and Neurodiversity Network.

In this episode Kirk talks about his own personal journey and experience as a neurodiverse communications director as well as sharing his thoughts on how we can better support colleagues in and into the profession.

06:00 - finding the connections

12:12 - understanding the impact of a diagnosis of ADHD

19:53 - developing a diverse communications team

34:40 - why choose public sector communications

39:43 - personal responsibility and curiosity

Thank you to Kirk for being part of the discussion about our profession, diversity and opportunities.

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New episodes of Behind the Bob are published every Wednesday and you can always subscribe via your favourite podcast platform to ensure you don't miss an episode.

You can find out more about Carrie-Ann and Cat's Pajamas Communications at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms

Director with me, Carrie-Ann Wade.

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the

future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.

You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even

be a special guest or two popping up.

So I hope you enjoy.

Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of Behind the

Bob, Diary of a Comms Director.

As you'll all know by now, I'm Carrie-Ann and you'll be really pleased to hear

this is one of those episodes where I am joined by a fabulous guest.

So I have another fantastic communicator, with me to have a conversation this

afternoon and that's the lovely Kirk.

Welcome Kirk, we've known each other for a while through the

NHS communications, network.

So thank you so much for being here.

Would you like to the listeners?

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Thank you so much for having me on.

Hello, everyone.

My name is Kurt Millis Ward, and I'm a Director of Communications

and Engagement, and I'm based on the not so sunny Isle of Wight.

I'm sheltering from the rain as we speak.

I know, I blinked and missed summer, I feel like.

I'm not sure what's happening with the weather if I'm honest.

I don't know if it is as glamorous as it sounds when you say you

work on the Isle of Wight, Kirk.

There's a certain frission of glamor to it, I guess.

But then come, it comes with its challenges, you know, uh,

we, we refer to, uh, you guys as living on the north island.

So, um, there, there's a slight, there's maybe a slightly parochial kind of, we

do it the island way vibe to things.

And that's nice, there's a different, a different kind of pace.

But it does present, you know, uh, challenges, especially

professionally, you know, it's a small, very close knit community.

The,, average age is higher than the rest of England.

, and we've got a really interesting mix of people.

And yeah, it's a lovely place to live and work, for sure.

I will try not to feel too jealous of you being

absolutely coastal, probably, whichever direction you look.

Thank you so much for being here.

I'm really excited about having this conversation, actually, because I feel

like I'm going to get to find out a bit more about you, probably things

that, that I don't yet know about you.

And I know our listeners.

We'll be really excited to hear some of your thoughts, insights,

and experience, particularly around public sector communications,

and diversity in the profession.

So shall we get started?

I would really love it, as I'm sure our listeners would, if you could tell us

a little bit more about your career as a communications professional to date.

Yeah, well, I love the opportunity to talk

a little bit about myself.

So thanks.

It's been, it's been a bit of a circuitous journey.

I think, I originally trained as a physiotherapist and the NHS was going

through, one of its semi regular top down reorganizations just as I qualified.

Of the 96 people in my year, I think only 12 made it on to junior rotations.

So, I'm not somebody that can, that copes well with waiting.

Uh, so I decided to retrain.

After a year teaching, I retrained as a journalist, moved down to Brighton,

and I spent, having launched and closed my own magazine after my training, I

went into newspaper journalism and spent, spent, The best part of a decade

working for local, regional, national newspapers, some daily, some weekly,

um, and I absolutely loved reporting.

It was similar to comms and every day was different.

And something that, and yeah, I'll never really, although it was hard and, you

know, the intense pressure of deadlines.

I actually really enjoyed that, the kind of, and it, we'll probably come onto it

a bit later, but I know, I now know that I am sort of built to work in that way.

Projects with long leadings don't...

that tend to interest me so much.

I need a bit of, I need the adrenaline of a deadline.

So I, I fitted in really well and loved it.

and one thing it had in common with my training as a physio was that, a big part

of the job was just being comfortable with walking into a room and just

dealing with the person in front of you and forming rapport quickly, and, and,

you know, being able to, engage them and find language that reaches them

and those two experiences, I think, laid a, laid a foundation quite, by

accident for what I would come onto in, in my, communications career.

And the reason I say it's circuitous is because I left journalism for, , I did

some private sector PR and lobbying work, wound up, , on a short term contract

at a now defunct organization called Monitor, which merged with the NHS

Trust Development Authority to become NHS Improvement, which has now merged into

and did, did a bunch of really interesting work there.

I was head of news, , for a while, , but I, I still felt like I was, I'd

almost got there, but not quite.

And it was only really when I then moved to a NHS provider, , back in Brighton.

Um, that I really felt like I'd completed that circle, I'm so glad that I did.

I absolutely love working in the NHS and in public sector

communications in general.

I think it's, it's a profession where...

One thing that I talk about with people in my team and with

colleagues is how difficult sometimes it can be to understand

how the work you're doing today.

What's the, how does this meeting that I'm in affect people's

lives in a meaningful way?

And it can be quite difficult sometimes, but I find working in the NHS that that

line is much shorter, it's much easier to connect what you're doing on a day

to day basis with some net positive or benefit to the, to the community.

And one of the reasons.

But I wanted to come to the Isle of Wight.

I talked about the challenges.

There's something uniquely, meaningful about when people,

in our hospital or our community services or, an ambulance goes to

somebody's house, Isle of Wight

, and talk about that.

a colleague, a friend, or a neighbour, or somebody, and, and so that, that

kind of direct link to the community that you're in is, is really palpable

here, and, uh, I just love that.

I love it.

It sounds a lot like, having meaning and being able to deliver

something meaningful, particularly rooted in your own community, feels

like it's really important for you and something that you talk about

with, with your comms colleagues, which I think is really brilliant.

before I ask you my next question, I'm intrigued to know about your magazine.

You launched, you launched and closed a magazine.

Are we allowed to ask what it's, what it was about?

It was called And So It Goes and it was an ill thought

through kind of politics and culture magazine, and

we had, we did articles on London Fashion Week, the right wing, the

emergence of right wing, , nationalists in Sweden, , drought in Africa.

It was like, It was basically what it's like inside my head.

Ha ha ha ha.

I love that.

had no kind of coherence to it.

It was very scattergun.

, and it was just as kind, just as kind of the internet was becoming a thing.

And we had one of the first page turners.

Um, so you can read it online and, and the page turner would go,

just thought it was the coolest

That honestly, so impressive.

That still impresses me.

Um, but, but, but sadly, nobody else thought it was cool.

So I had to take a job working on a local newspaper.

thank you for indulging me.

I was very intrigued to know what your magazine was.

And so it goes.

There we are.

You've talked a bit already NHS.

comms role because you obviously started out as a physiotherapist

and you've gone right back round full circle back into the NHS.

So is it that sense of meaning and that seeing the impact you

can have for local communities and building those relationships that's

attracted you to work in public sector comms or is it something else?

Yeah.

I'm really, really interested in,, the behavioral science

aspect of communications.

So I'm naturally curious about knowing the audience and understanding what

they might need to encourage them to think, feel, or do something different.

So I guess what it boils down to is that I, I like being able to.

apply myself to, , thing, to work that is intended to have a net benefit for

a, for a group of people or community.

I think in general, I'm just fascinated, fascinated by people in all their weird

and wonderful influence and,, comms, to me, is all about understanding people

and how to How to reach them, and I like internal communications, we do the full

mix, obviously, but I really like trying to understand what people need to get

the most out of work, whether that's the support that they might need to ensure

that they're thriving at work, or whether it's the really practical nuts and bolts.

Stuff the tools that they need to actually do their job.

And I sort of, I just think that that's, I think that's fantastic being in a

position to try and help figure that out and then make someone's life easier,

even if it's a tiny bit day by day.

So I think the answer to that, that's a rambling way of

saying, I think it's really.

valuable to me, to be surrounded by weird and wonderful people, and it gives me,

like, like you said, it gives me a sense of purpose, and a connection to what the

end result is of the work that we do.

I love that, thank you for sharing.

So I'm going to move us on a little bit now and ask you Kirk whether there's

been anything that you consider, has been a barrier perhaps to your

career in communications to date.

I'll take a moment to check my privilege.

I'm a white, middle class, cisgendered male.

There hasn't been kind of the structural, , systematic kind

of barriers to my progression.

I know many colleagues have experienced some people across the NHS and public

and private sectors experience.

So, no, I don't think there's been a structural barrier, but in, but

I'll share a personal experience if I may, in, in 2022, I, experienced a

significant period of illness and I was off work for, I think, four months.

In total, and I burned out basically, I was working extremely long hours, in

a new job, trying to prove myself, and when the pandemic started,

I, I had nowhere to go, , I was already, , on the verge of burnout,

and, I managed to maintain it for as, for as long as I did, but eventually

the body, the body keeps score.

Right.

And,, I decided it had had enough.

And, , it was really in the recovery from that, that, , I kind of what putting

the pieces back together and being supported back into work that, I was

diagnosed with, , with ADHD and a lot of stuff started to make sense for me.

From the slightly wacky content, , in my magazine that didn't take off,

that I was fixated on, , and then just stopped doing, to, , my, , almost

obsessive need to collect work and, um, to, you know, relentlessly pursue it.

And it made a huge amount of sense.

It tracked with my, throughout my career.

Um, and, and being a neurodiverse,

executive director and communicator is a really interesting conundrum.

for me, it's got good and bad points.

So I am creative, I'm energetic, I'm strategic, I can make

connections between things that, um, that my, uh, colleagues may not

see, , that has its challenges too.

But I struggle with so much stuff that is just like the basics

of being a senior communicator.

Long meetings are really difficult.

And, and, and finding a way to adapt to the sort of work that we have to do whilst

allowing the good parts of ADHD and the things that I bring that add value, um,

is really difficult balance to find.

And clearly, prior to my diagnosis, I had no idea why I

was finding this stuff difficult.

I was getting through the week through sheer force of will.

And, and obviously that was not sustainable.

I think that there are, there are structures in place that

prevent neurodiverse people from entering all sorts of professions.

But I think it's particular, it's a, there's a particular risk for

comms as a profession because we

we need ideas and experience from such a wide range of people in order

that we can communicate effectively.

It hadn't even occurred to me, for instance, that the type of information we

are sharing with our workforce Of three and a bit thousand people might not be

suitable for people who are neurodiverse.

And it only occurred to me because I, because I am neurodiverse, that a 500 word

article announcing something in technical language, is never going to reach That

part of our workforce now it might sound like that's obvious that's comms basics,

but you can take it even further the colors that you use in your newsletters or

in your social media posts, the audio that you use to accompany clips and things.

the way you structure your intranet.

Accessibility is really, really important.

We know that as comms people.

but if we don't have experience of the people who are accessing the content or

which, or who we are trying to reach, then I think we've got, we've got an issue.

And my experience My personal experience, I can't fault my employer.

They've been hugely understanding.

My, my boss, my colleagues, they've been understanding and supportive and

I've been supported back into my role.

And adjustments have been made for me, but.

and I want to, uh, and I've started to try in a small way to

give back to the organization.

So I'm the exec lead for our neurodiversity staff network

and for our disabilities and long term condition network too.

And I now realize that my experience Even just in our

organization is not a common law.

And, um, that's true, that I believe is true across the NHS, across the

public sector, , and also within communications as a subset of that.

Had I not been supported, then I would, I would have had to

have left and I may not be working in the NHS now, and I still feel

like I've got quite a lot to give.

So, I'd say that, , my experience around neurodiversity and understanding

and awareness in the workplace.

There's so many things I want to say in response to what you've

shared, but firstly I just want to say a huge thank you for sharing your

personal experience and I also want to say that I'm glad that you, receiving

your diagnosis of ADHD, albeit in adulthood and probably, you know, quite

a long time from when perhaps it would have been helpful for you to have that

diagnosis, has, has changed things for you in terms of your own insight and

understanding, kind of, why maybe you need things to be a certain way that might be.

be different from what other people need and it seems like adult diagnosis of

ADHD is something which is becoming more common which on the one hand I feel is

really positive because there's people being able to understand kind of what

it is they need to be able to function but on the other hand I guess makes me

feel Quite sad because that means people have gone through quite a lot of their

life before they've been able to maybe get some of that support that they need,

so I think it's really good that you are sharing this, thank you so much for

sharing, , and interesting that you say It makes sense now why certain things are

challenges, and you talk about the long meetings, and I have to say public sector

and NHS specifically feels like the home of long meetings, more generally, and,

and, yeah, it's just been interesting to hear from you, kind of what hasn't

helped you, but also what has, so I'm, I'm really pleased that your organisation has

been so supportive and enabled you to, to have the adjustments that you've needed.

You've talked a little bit about your role, as a, an ambassador for your

staff networks around neurodiversity and disability in long term conditions.

You've talked about some of the things that have been challenges for you and

the fact that your employer has made some of those adjustments, but you've also

touched on You know, the challenges of recruiting and retaining communications

professionals, if we don't take into account people with neurodiverse needs.

So I just wondered if you thought there was anything that we could do to help

reduce those types of barriers for others, particularly in the communication space?

I've wrestled with this one, um, on a, on a kind of micro scale.

So in the past, I've worked in teams where I was the only male and that's,

that's an interesting conundrum, isn't it?

Like, should I be specifically trying to hire a person of this type?

, it's up to us as communicators to be open to hiring and then developing

people from all backgrounds.

In my experience I know that some managers have found me quite difficult to manage

because I move forward at a rapid pace and I'm full of ideas and I'm highly creative.

And so they have potentially sort of stepped back from giving me the kind

of challenges or support I might need.

When actually all I really needed was for them to put the guide rails in place

or define the pitch on which I could play and then, and then let, let me sort

of go and see, see what comes from it.

And in my experience,

having managed various teams, I think that we make unconscious choices about who we

hire and who we develop and it's based on who, who we are as people and, and

how, and how we think those individuals will fit with our style, and we have

to challenge ourselves not to hire.

And create teams of mini me's.

It would be a nightmare for me if I did

Okay.

that.

We'd never get anything done.

We'd have a hundred brilliant ideas every meeting and nobody

would write anything down.

It'd be a nightmare.

So we have to challenge ourselves as communicators.

I think that's true of leaders in the public sector anyway.

And as senior leaders in the public sector, we have to

give our people the tools.

to thrive at work.

I like, there's no two ways about it.

If we don't do the basics for our people, they will suffer, the quality

of their work will suffer, and then the thing that we're trying to do

as an organisation won't get done.

So it, it's like core, core part of our purpose is supporting people.

And that may prevent someone like me from burning out.

It might support them back into work, or it might.

a person find the reasonable adjustment that they need to get the

most from their experience at work.

Hot desking comes up at the neurodiversity network all the time.

It's really difficult for someone with ADHD or autism not to know

where they're going to sit.

It's a simple thing.

So having a conversation with a line manager about, yes, hot desking

is the organization's policy.

But let's work away so you know this week you're going to sit in that desk

there and, and next week we'll sort out and, and, and then they can get a bit

of consistency and that enables them to feel centered and safe and they can get

on with their work and be productive.

Whereas if you don't have that conversation, they're going to stress

about getting into work, and they may not come into work because they feel

overwhelmed and simple things like that.

What it boils down to, I think, is taking personal responsibility for

the decisions you make in hiring and developing people, and being curious

enough about the people that you hire to understand what they need to develop.

I, I think that's a really good reminder to us all, isn't it?

That as leaders, I think we can often be in a space where we operate, and

talk a lot about what we need or what the organization needs in

terms of delivery and priorities and what we should all be working on.

But perhaps we don't always spend enough time asking what the individuals in our

team need to actually help us get to that.

And that is actually such a basic conversation to have

with somebody really, isn't it?

Like,

It

and what do you need to be effective?

If you think about the investment you're making in somebody

over the course of a, a, a career, I, I, it might be different in different

sectors, but let's take an NHS staff member, if they spend their career in

the NHS is making northward of a million pounds of investment in that individual

over the course of their career.

And, you know, some, some people will go an entire career without a manager

being curious enough to, uh, to try to understand what they need to develop.

And, and that's, that's a tragedy.

They don't have to be neurodiverse or, or have come up against systemic

barriers or blockers in their career.

, they could just have not had that conversation and they will never have the

experience at work that they might have.

So on a, on a very basic level, we as leaders need to be more curious about

what people in our teams and, um, and challenge ourselves when we're making

decisions about hiring new people.

And at the risk of stereotyping communicators, my experience

has been that people who choose to work in communications as a profession are

usually quite naturally curious people.

So I would hope, I would hope that for us in our profession, that would be something

that if we're not doing it already, we can very easily,, start to do with our teams.

Are you a communications professional who would like to feel more

confident in your career choices?

Perhaps you'd like to be more intentional in the way you approach your work life?

Our Cats Pajamas Thrive Programme is a 12 week structured online

programme that supports communications professionals to grow and thrive.

It's a safe space for discussion, action and accountability, all with

the aim of helping you to thrive as a communicator and as a leader.

The next Thrive Programme starts on the 1st of September, and if you'd like to

find out more, or reserve your place on the program, visit the website, catch up

with us on the socials or drop us a line.

We've mentioned your magazine.

We've mentioned quite a bit.

We mentioned, , your physiotherapy training, but I would be really interested

to hear from you, Kirk, about what you consider to be some of your highlights

of your public sector comms career to inspire some of our listeners.

There are a few things that stand out, though, and...

Nothing quite matches the experience of celebrating, um, the recent good

rating from the Care Quality Commission that we had on the Isle of Wight.

Um, the fact that people had worked their socks off for four

years to get to that point.

Um, and that they'd done all of that work under a cloud,, of having

an inadequate rating and being in

in inverted commas, double special measures for quality and for finance,

um, it, it, it meant so much to the, to our colleagues and to be able to sort

of facilitate that celebration was, it was a really proud moment we had.

There's a castle on the Isle of Wight, which is quite historical Carisbrook

and that was lit up green overnight.

Um, and, and it.

created a real buzz, um, on, on the island and everybody, even my in laws knew

about it, um, which is kind of the mark of PR cut through on the Isle of Wight.

Um, so, so, so that was, that was really meaningful.

I'm not sure if it's a highlight, but it's definitely something that I won't

forget, and that was, , in COVID, the government set up a COVID 19 app, and

they wanted to trial it somewhere, and it made sense to do it on the Isle of Wight,

because by and large people couldn't get off the Isle of Wight at the time.

There were, I think, a lot of raised eyebrows.

About our ability to

deliver the pilot and make it meaningful

we get enough people to download the app so that the

data will help the national effort.

And putting aside all the controversy about the app and its development,

and whether it worked or not, , we were set a really difficult task of

getting more than half of the population of the Isle of Wight, which, as I

mentioned in the intro, is older, on average, than the rest of England.

Download an app in that context with, you know, that I remember at the start

of the process thinking, Oh, God, I don't think I don't think we're going to do it.

And we certainly not going to be able to do it by tweeting.

in

and so, and so what, what followed from that actually was we,

your

your

stripped it right back and partnership, people talk

about partnership working and it's something people say, but I don't

think really happens that much.

We worked incredibly closely with our colleagues at the council and we

did, , we did hyper local engagement.

Through the council's teams, street by street, village by village, across the

island, and that wouldn't have been possible, for the Department of Health

and Social Care or the NHS on the island to do, so we've had to do it together.

Um, and, and we, we got the engagement that we needed for

the climate to be meaningful.

And so in some small way, I felt like public sector comms

on the Isle of Wight did its bit

for the nation's response to the, to the pandemic, obviously putting

all the politics of it aside.

And actually having, having an international news event.

On the launch of the app outside St.

Mary's Hospital on the Isle of Wight.

I think we had something like 32, definitely, in that region,

journalists, camera crews.

We did that, we had to do a first press pool we'd never done a press

pool on, on the Isle of Wight.

We had spokespeople all prepared and lined up and we were sort of, um, sending them

over to ABC from, America or,, over to the BBC or ITV, and it was like, it was a

genuine event for the Isle of Wight, and it went, it went perfectly, and actually

it was, uh, we had a new team member join, and it was her first day at the Trust.

And she, I remember sort of looking at her at one point and she was like quite wide

eyed and I had to say it's not, it really isn't like this, if you tell me, don't

I promise it's not, whether that's a good thing or a bad

thing, it's not like this every day.

So there are a few things that stand out, but one final

one, I know I'm going on a bit here, but one thing that I will always remember

is when somebody I have have hired and enjoyed working with, comes to me

and says I've got a new job and the new job is really good and you just

think, ah, like, you're, you're so conflicted because you're like, oh no,

the best, the best ones always leave me.

But at the same time you're so proud that they've, they've come in, they've bossed

what you've given them over the last few years and now, and now they're off.

And I just love, I absolutely love that.

And then there've been a few, um, people that.

That I've worked with over the years that I'm super proud of how their

careers have gone on and developed.

And that's such an important part of

being a good leader, isn't it?

That when the opportunity for progression and promotion and development is no

longer there for you to give that really brilliant person that actually you

just feel really happy and proud that they are able to get that somewhere

else and you support them to do that.

Because it would be so easy, wouldn't it, to try and, and convince people to

stay because they're your good people.

But if you can't give them what they need for that next step,

then it's really important that you support them to progress.

So I, and I absolutely get that feeling of conflict, where you're like, oh no!

I love working with that person.

They're so good, but you also know that they're ready, for that next thing.

So, so I love that one.

I, I also love that,, people's in laws are the barometer of

whether the comms is worked on the island for your CQC good rating.

And I also love that it felt like from how you described it, that that,

it actually wasn't just about the colleagues in your NHS organisation.

Celebrating and being proud of that good, but it was actually for the

island and that it sounded like the community kind of got on board with

that celebration, which was lovely.

And again, your COVID example, just brilliant, absolutely at the forefront

of, leading the way around how we were going to manage COVID and having

all of that international press there on, on your island sounds like it was

probably a really amazing experience.

And, and COVID's always an interesting conversation to have, I find, with

communicators, particularly those who've worked in the NHS and local authority,

because I think many communicators I talked to say it was like one of the

most stressful difficult, ongoing, sustained crises that I've ever had to

deal with, but actually it's often when communicators come into their own and it

almost felt like people were like, yeah, this is what we're here for actually,

this is where we can really shine in terms of where comms can add value.

So again, another interesting one because a bit of conflict there because

it was such a difficult period of time, but I think an opportunity for

communicators to really demonstrate value.

So some brilliant highlights and I'm sure there have been many more

but thank you so much for sharing.

And for listeners, with that in mind, those amazing highlights that you've,

that you've shared, I wondered, what you would say to a communicator who was

considering a career in the public sector.

Why would you tell them that that would be a good step for

them as a comms professional?

definitely the lavish parties, the endless

leave, the expense accounts.

Um, no, so for me, it really is about purpose.

One thing that we saw.

In our little trust during COVID was this incredible shared sense of purpose.

And although it was awful.

That was so meaningful.

And, , if you can find a unifying purpose like that in your team, or find purpose

just in your, in your career, That is, that is worth more than any, any PR party

or award ceremony or expense account.

It's the stuff that keeps you getting up out of bed in the morning.

So for me, it's about purpose and being able, and as I said

earlier, being able to draw a line

from your daily work to making people's life, lives better.

And that, that for me is why I'm still in the public sector.

I love that.

Thank you.

It wasn't for the glamorous parties and the black tie events.

And I hear it a lot from communicators in the public sector

around that sense of purpose.

, we've talked, , in this conversation and in other episodes,, I've talked

about this on the podcast, but, obviously we've talked a bit about

diversity and I think we can often.

, when we talk about diversity within the comms profession, I think we can be

thinking about gender, thinking about age, thinking about cultural backgrounds,

but it's been really interesting to hear you talk about neurodiversity,

because I'll be really honest, I don't think I've thought enough about that

as a comms leader and in my profession.

So I just wondered from your point of view, Kirk, What do you think we

can do to encourage more diversity, whatever that might look or feel like,

within our profession as communicators?

One thing I, one thing I really like about, um, about

you Carrie-Ann is that your values are writ large and the way, the way you

communicate, um, professionally, , to do with your work with, , in the NHS.

But also your work outside the NHS, it's, , and it's, and I

think it's the same for me.

I may not be as good at communicating it,

You are.

um, I like, I like to sort of force myself to live those values.

And at work, I try to keep myself accountable.

And there are some questions that I ask myself.

Like, am I being an ally for this, for this group?

So it's, it's easy enough for me to retweet a pride post from my trust.

That does not mean, that is not allyship.

That, that is retweeting a post and getting them a bit, a bit greater reach.

You know, so, can I, am I satisfied that I'm being an ally?

So

And if the answer is no, then I have to

figure out what more I can do.

And am I, I ask myself, what am I spending my time on?

Is, is it things that are helping my team or my organization or

the community that we serve?

and setting boundaries, uh, to enable me to spend time that will have an impact

on the things that link to my values.

So, you know, we talk about the long meetings that we're in.

Um, that's difficult.

We don't always have control of our diaries, but we do have some control.

And so I have to ask myself.

Where am I spending my time?

And is it helping in the way that my values suggest I should be helping?

I ask myself all the time, like, is the team that I'm in

representative of a range of views?

Uh,

it might be that we need to go and speak to the Neurodiversity

Network to understand whether the video content for training modules is helpful

or not, or whether it needs to come in a new format, or, you know, are we

reaching the community on the Isle of Wight, people with learning disabilities?

Is it enough just to make an easy read version of a corporate document?

We tell ourselves, oh, that means we're being inclusive, but the rest

of our content is not developed in a way that will be engaging

for that part of our community.

So I'm not saying that the answers I give to these questions are always good ones.

But the personal responsibility comes in asking the question and then being willing

to do something about whatever the answer is, you know, I ask myself all the time.

Am I, are we developing our people?

And is it in the way that we need and they need?

Because it's, it's easy to, if somebody shows curiosity and energy, it's easy

just to keep throwing work at them.

want

Organizations do that all the time.

It's one of the reasons I found myself in trouble in, in 2022.

All right.

Um, but that isn't developing people,

just giving people more work.

You need to have had the curiosity to, have the conversation with that person

to understand what they like, what they don't, what they're good at, what they're

not, where they see their career in 12 months time, two years, three years,

and try to delegate in a way that's not just volume based workflow, which is

difficult, I know, and I don't get that right even half the time, but, you know.

I think he, at least I'm asking the question and committing

to try and do it better.

Do people have the support that they need?

Do I have the support that I need?

So, you know, for me it does, it, there's not a simple answer to how we offer

greater diversity or allow diverse voices.

To be heard more widely.

But we have to challenge ourselves, and it's a, it's a continuous process,

I think, rather than Let's make decisions differently on hiring.

Um, it's through, it's throughout the process.

Um, and it's not easy.

I, I, I wish it, I wish it would've, like I've got a d h D, these,

these sort of long-term problems requiring nuanced solutions.

Uh, not, not in my wheelhouse.

Um, so yeah.

I hope that, I hope that wasn't too rambling,

no, it wasn't at all.

But I think that insight as a, as a, not even just as a leader, as

a communicator, as a professional, whatever profession you're in, that

ability to have that personal insight about questioning yourself and asking

what can you do differently to achieve a different outcome for somebody,

I think is, is really crucial.

And I think it's, , I don't know, it's heartened me to hear you talk like that

because I don't think every leader does question themselves as much or as often

as they probably should about The impact they're having, the support their team

needs, you know, what, what you really need to do to help develop people.

So, , the fact that you do that on a regular basis, Kirk, has really inspired

me and made me think I probably need to do that more myself as a leader.

So, thank you for that reminder about our own personal responsibility to, to keep

questioning ourselves and, and challenging our own thinking, , as well as the future.

the thought and action of others.

I think that was really helpful.

I'm going to try to wrap it up, but I don't want to because I could have

this conversational day, which won't help you because long conversations

and long meetings are not good for you.

So I will try to wrap this up, Kirk, but, , I wondered, , because we've

talked in, in this episode about.

Kind of supporting diversity and particularly about encouraging

people to consider a career in public sector communications.

Is there a practical step that people listening to this podcast

could take today to support one or both of those kind of challenges?

I think knowledge and, and practical knowledge of what

it's like for those, for those people, , has to be the starting point, and it,

and for someone like me, yes, I have lived experience of what it's like

to be neurodiverse, but I don't have lived experience of what it's like to

be from the LGBTQ community or, um,

bME or any of the other diversity networks that we have in our organization.

So my, my answer to that is, there is an equality network in your

organization, join it as an ally.

If there isn't, if there aren't any set one up and find out what people

from these communities think and feel about their experiences at work.

The same is true of your community.

If it's not a work thing, the only way you can understand it,

it's the same for communicating.

The only way you can communicate effectively is to understand the

audience you're trying to engage.

And it's the same for me, at least.

When it comes to diversity,

, we need to understand what people experience and think and feel

before we do anything else.

So, , if you're just kind of starting to think about that,

that's where, that's where I would start because bringing

people together essentially is the best way of making change.

And yeah, if you don't know how to get stuck in, find out if

there's a staff network, if there is great, join it as an ally.

If there isn't one, then set one up.

Brilliant.

Thank you so much for sharing Kirk.

I am going to draw our conversation to a reluctant close on my part.

I think the themes I'm taking away from our conversation are around personal

responsibility, connection and curiosity.

So a huge thank you from me for allowing me to be curious about

your experiences and understand more about your comms career today.

I really appreciate you sharing, , particularly, , the more

personal aspects of your journey.

So thank you so much for sharing Kirk.

It's been a pleasure to have this conversation.

Thank you so much.

And thank you to your listeners as well.

Brilliant.

Thank you.

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