Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Laura and Xhafer recast the Minbari ambassadorial delegation. Meanwhile, Zack gets a new suit, Franklin and Marcus go on an adventure, and Delenn and Lennier review the tape in Babylon 5 - Season 4 Episode 9: Atonement.

Hello and welcome to Who Are You?

It's a Babylon five watch cast by a couple of former strangers who are

now friends who are getting to know each other and enjoying one of their

favorite shows from their childhood.

Babylon.

Five.

I'm Laura,

And I'm Sha

and today we're gonna do a little bit of recasting.

Yes, we are.

We're gonna be recasting our Mumbai delegate to the station today, so

we're gonna do Delen and Lanier.

Yeah, I'm curious about this one.

Yeah, I think I know you've probably seen my Lanier pick

because we have our spreadsheet.

I came up with my linear pick like a year and a half ago when we started this bit,

and I just wrote it down next to his name on the list that

we could keep track of things.

So it's been there even though we haven't recorded this bit for a year.

So that one's probably not surprising at all, but we can start there

Yeah, let's start with linear.

Linear.

Is Bill, mummy and Babylon five, who of course has a pedigree of

being a child actor in sci-fi,

Mm-hmm.

who then goes on to another show.

And so following in those footsteps, I think Will Wheaton

would make an excellent linear,

I think that that is a great call.

Yeah.

um, You get the hearkening back thing.

Also will Wheaton just a good actor and would have a lot of fun in this role.

I think it's different enough from other stuff I've seen him do where I think

he'd have a really fun time with it.

Yeah, I think so.

And we know that Will, Wheaton looks good, clean shaven.

Of course he is currently sporting a nice beard.

Uh, But if you had to clean, shave him to be a Mumbai, then he, he looks good at it.

Put him in some loaf for a change, you know, let him experience the

makeup chair so that way all the razzing he's gotten at conventions about never

having to do that as much uh, from, from some of his friends gets paid back.

And then also you get the fun came cameo opportunity of people from NextGen coming

on the show and doing guest bits like they did with His mom from Lost in Space.

Yeah.

Bring, bring Beverly Crusher back

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, you could do all kinds of stuff with that.

It'd be really fun.

So Will Wheaton my pick for Lanier?

I think that's great.

I was kind of going under similar lines in that I thought, you know,

linear kind of has to be, for me, a sort of doofy white guy.

Okay.

Like, you know, the, the whole subplot with him.

Secret be secretly being in love with delin.

I was like, I need kind of a doofy white guy for that.

Just in my brain, that's what I want.

yeah.

You need someone who can get real excited about a Kawasaki ninja.

yeah.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, you've already got Will Wheaton on there.

I think that he can be totally a doofy white guy.

So props to you for that pick.

But I, I have to go with something different.

Right.

I need to

I mean, that's what's our rules.

You can do whatever you want.

Yeah, well, so I was like, well, who's another sort of actor

that could pull these things off?

And to me, I picked Michael, Sarah

Okay.

again.

He's done some child actor stuff.

And to my knowledge, no sci-fi credit there.

Certainly a very young actor.

I think he's about our age, so that seems like the right age range.

For what we need.

And of course, will, Wheaton is a bit older than us, but I think that he

still carries a very youthful look.

Like he's one of those babyface kind of people.

Especially if you shave him.

Yeah.

I mean, he, if you shave him, give him, you know, maybe he might need

a little hair dye at this point, but uh, I think he can, he can pull it off

he's older than Patrick Stewart was when they

started filming Next Gen Now.

Right, right.

He's older than you think.

Like if you just looked at him, you might be like, yeah.

You know, late thirties.

Right.

But

he's

like, wait, he was at a TV show in 87.

What?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think Michael, Sarah can also give us the same vibe and, you know, maybe

we don't have to use the quite same level of hair dye uh, to achieve it.

But I think he, he can hit all the right notes there with that

sort of awkward secret love

if we keep that storyline with the land.

And then, you know, just the sort of inexperienced young attache

vibe that we're gonna need on Mr.

Lanier.

Yeah.

So who would you put up as your delen next to your will?

Wheaton.

Lanier.

We need someone who can really carry themselves to carry a room.

Someone who has a presence that is commanding yet mysterious someone that

doesn't, the air about them is kind of unquestioned, but also a little foreign.

And when I think of actresses who have these qualities, the first name that

came to my mind was Natalie Portman.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

She would be really good, wouldn't she?

Mm-hmm.

I

think so.

Yeah.

definitely.

I mean, we kind of saw a little bit of her poise in her Star Wars role.

Mm-hmm.

But I maybe this would be a nice do-over for the Star Wars role.

Cause I feel like she got kind of um, cheated a little bit.

Famously bad dialogue in those films.

Right,

she does a really good job with it, despite that.

Um, it's really a testament to her.

And Ian McGregor also gets a ton of credit for this for taking such bad dialogue.

And just really making it work despite itself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that I don't fault any of those actors for those movies.

no,

I don't think that they were well served by a lot of choices that

were made outside of their control.

for sure.

So, okay.

I went a slightly different way with Delen.

I remembered you saying, you know, back in season one when we had a very different

look for Delen, and especially I think even in the pilot, we talked about how

she was presented rather masculine it

Yeah, Yeah, Delen was originally going to be a trans character who changed

gender while also becoming more human.

Yeah.

the, the chrysalis was gonna do a little bit more

than just impart human quality.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I remembered that and I thought, well, what if we leaned hard into

that and went with a non-binary actor?

Mm-hmm.

we actually have that season one or whatever of maleness,

and then the actor gets to.

Completely flip in another season after the cocooning,

And be female.

And so I thought maybe Vico Ortiz,

Ooh.

Yeah.

Good call.

like, you know, we, that's another HBO Max actor.

Uh, they are in our flag means death, which is just, we both love this show.

Yeah.

That show's great.

Yeah.

I think, oh, you know, I was reading on Wikipedia just to make sure,

I was like, is this something that they would be game for theoretically?

And in the Wikipedia it said that they specifically have told their

agent that they want to be considered for all roles regardless of gender.

So I was like, yay.

Okay.

So sounds like that would hit this box here wouldn't be offensive

or Just a a no go from the start.

For sure.

I think if you're going to go down that path, especially in the reboot you

have a obligation to cast a transactor,

Yeah.

or someone who's gender fluid at the very least to portray some of the

more nuances of that aspect of their life.

In an authentic way.

Yeah.

And then I think you can play with the things that, you know, depending on how

you wanna portray Maari society about it, or, or even human society, about

like gender expectations and how you being treated differently based on how

you present one gender versus the other.

And,

Mm-hmm.

It's a little extra dimension you can add to stuff.

So

For sure.

Good call.

I, I'm riding for Vico Ortiz,

All right.

Well that is our fan cast.

We can get right into this episode here.

We've got season four, episode nine, atonement.

Delen and linear heavy episode, which is why we chose

our casting the way we did.

Yep.

It is of note here that the movie Third Space, Takes place between the first

and second scenes of this episode.

Whoa, that's very specific.

Zach needs his uniform, but it needs to be before Delen leaves from Mbar.

So

Okay.

to be five days in between these scenes and it's

worth third space takes place.

I don't know who figured it out exactly, but I was reading

about it on midwinter, so yeah.

That's fun.

I know I've seen Third Space, but I do not remember anything about it.

Yes.

Much like this episode, I did not remember much about it.

we do have plans to watch Third Space Listener.

We're not going in a strict chronological order here.

And we'll talk about when we're gonna do Third Space and uh, in

the beginning, which also ties into this episode in a handful of ways.

We'll talk about that when we get to the end of season four.

About when all that stuff's gonna happen.

So it's, it's on our radar.

It's just not for now.

Yeah.

We weren't feeling like we needed to do a strict like story chronological

order with how we went through this show

No.

In fact,

because we didn't get that.

we've slaughtered the order in just about every metric by following

hbo Max's weird order and then doing.

Just whatever we can find after that.

So

yeah,

is what it is.

We opened on Zach getting fitted for his army of light uniform.

yeah.

He can't get a comfortable uniform no matter what he does.

Right.

yeah, so I think I actually alluded to this a number of episodes ago.

But there's a cameo here.

The costume design department are the mai fitting him.

Oh yeah, I think you did mention that.

I think that's really cute.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so all the stabbing of him with the needles and stuff

while he's complaining about how his clothes never fit, it's perfect.

Yeah.

They finally get to have their revenge.

Uh, Do you think that this.

Continual ill-fitting uniform that Zach has a problem with is some sort of

metaphor for chafing against authority.

Sure.

I've never thought about it like that once in my life, but it makes sense.

So I'm here

Yeah.

I mean, he's not, he is not great at it.

Right.

So, yeah, just a thought.

After this, we get a scene where Brian Carpenter comes to

collect thelen for the dreaming.

She asks for one more day, but she may not be able to return

if it goes poorly to theme.

Dun, dun.

After this Ivanova has her green leader scarf on as she heads

to a drowsy religious festival.

So it seems like the Greens won right in that last uh, drowsy

election with air quotes,

She became purple leader.

She took both the sashes, became purple leader and green leader, and told all

the purples that they were greens now.

So there are no purple drowsy on the station.

All drowsy on the station or green

I thought it was the other way around.

I thought she made all the everybody into purples.

No.

I would have

It doesn't

and check.

She's wearing the green sash regardless.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Franklin Fitz Jaar for his prosthetic eye and it's bright blue.

It's worth noting Andreas had brown eyes, so this is still a colored contact,

still had to wear a colored tr I've wondered about that cuz

I thought, I don't feel like that man has blue eyes naturally.

So,

especially that blue.

yeah, this feels a lot like chekhov's eyeball, like we're spending a

lot of time establishing that this eyeball can see things that uh, if you take it

out and just like leave it somewhere,

I know it's used for a gag at one point.

I don't remember if it has a storyline purpose outside of that.

If this is all just set up for just that gag, I'm a little disappointed.

But

I don't know.

I, I enjoy a good gag setup, but it feels a lot like we are spending

some time on this for a reason.

yeah.

Yeah, he, we learned he has to take it out tonight.

He has to be very careful with cleaning it and he immediately just like

pops it out of his head and is like touching it and pops it right back in.

Yeah.

But of course, I mean, I.

If you have this opportunity, is it the first thing you wanna do to see yourself?

No, that's what mirrors are for.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not for me either, but I can, I can understand the

appeal for most, most people.

Fair Fair enough.

I've had an out of body experience I don't talk about this very often.

I was young and very sick.

I think I was in fourth grade

and I had a very, very bad case of pneumonia.

I remember being told that I might die, like it was a bad case of pneumonia, but I

was never in the hospital, so it might've just been my parents had a uh, tendency

to oversell for the sake of drama.

I

Well, they probably just wanted you to like stay in bed and so they

were like, don't get out of bed.

You might die.

Yeah.

And I watched a ton of lost in space actually on the sci-fi channel uh, cuz I

was sick and just on the couch watching TV all day for like three weeks or something.

I missed, I missed up school where I almost got held back.

But yeah, I was very sick and I had an out of body experience

where I remember looking down at my body on the couch very vividly.

Jakarta's having a lot more fun with his.

yeah, I was not having a good time.

He is like smiling as he put pulls, pops that thing back in.

Yeah.

It's got a very, like, whitewashed exposed, like oversaturated,

I think is the technical term

Little bit of like crackles in his vision.

Yeah, it's a C R T TV thing and I have to wonder, cuz

we're watching this on modern TVs,

I have to wonder if watching this on an actual old TV or watching

it on a VHS or something where the quality degrade even further,

how this actually looked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cuz it definitely looks like you these days you're like, nah,

that ain't, that ain't happening.

Yeah.

Zoom quality is better than this, and that's trash, so

Yeah.

Also, I, I You know, I rolled my eyes a little bit at the notion that you

could just leave this eye somewhere and it would see other things cuz like you

would have to at least close your eye.

That's still in your head.

Right?

Because my

my optometrist told me,

bad double vision.

Yeah, depending on

my optometrist told me You cannot, like, I cannot wear my glasses because,

Lenses that aren't on my eye are getting two different size images and it gives

me headaches and stuff, and it's like, how would you feel if you're looking

at two completely different scenes?

I think.

The slight difference might be worse than the big difference, like I feel

like holding it out and looking at yourself where it's a completely

different perspective probably would be, it'd be weird, it'd be jarring, but I

don't know if it'd be headache inducing compared to like holding it next to

your head, next to your eye socket so that everything was just off a bit.

Yeah.

probably be headache count, I have to imagine.

Do you think that we had to make this a blue eye because.

Other nas we might not have sprung for the red contacts, and so we might have

some brown-eyed NAS running around, so we need to really distinguish

it as a blue eye, as a human eye.

Um, It might be a color wheel thing too, just

like the blue and the red are.

Much more contrast.

Than a brown and a red.

Um, His, his eyes are rather dark from pictures I looked up.

True.

but yeah, quite possibly.

I'm sure there were a handful of production reasons for it.

Mostly I just feel bad for Andreas not getting a day off of contact.

Yeah.

Depending they can be very irritating.

Yeah,

Especially, I feel like the colored ones are more prone

to be irritating, and this would've been 40 years ago, 30

years

Certainly at that time, they would've been different.

Right.

Contacts.

I feel like the contacts I had when I was like in high school and

early college are very different than the contacts I wear now.

Truth.

Yeah.

I can only imagine another 10 years back that

it would've been even worse.

We run back into Ivanova who has clearly been at a

very lit religious ceremony.

She's got her cane again like she had in that episode because her leg broke.

It was a very

She's covered in, covered in like glitter.

Yeah.

The drawi know how to throw a, a good time, apparently.

John is on his way to Deens and he gets sexy, ambushed.

I don't know how else to describe this.

Yeah, that's a good way to describe it.

she's writing for having that third sleepover, you know, they had the.

The first sleepover where she watched him she says it was on the white star

and then they have the second one.

I remember that one on Babylon five.

Now she's really wants to have that third sleepover.

For night three.

John makes a joke here about what you'll see with my drool

on my pillow my true self.

That is a joke that JMS cited to the use nets somewhat on there.

Made that joke and he just took it for the episode and thanked them.

Yeah.

Nice.

I mean, I know I'm a, a sleep drooler most of the time, so I, I feel ya.

Sheridan.

Yeah.

She tells John she's going to Minbar and it might be a while.

So she wants to finish this tradition before she goes.

He knows something is up and chooses to not dig into it.

Yeah.

They're having a lot of unspoken understanding here.

Mm-hmm.

Meanwhile, Sheridan meets with Marcus and Franklin about Clark's propaganda war.

He says, if you tell a big lie, enough people will start to believe it.

Now Aaron, our dear editor normally I'd just say leave a drop here.

But if you wanna leave this audio here because there will be no recovering.

Your search algorithm, your YouTube algorithm from the thing

I'm about to ask you to drop.

So I'm doing a little bit more of an explanation than I normally do, and

I'm like, Aaron drop for this reason.

So this makes sense to you, listener, because this is how we do our drops When

we're recording, we'll call them out.

And then Aaron, our editor, knows to put them in.

But I'm thinking a bunch of clips of like Fox News and, you know, other right wing

media sources talking about how Biden stole the election from let's say November

20th to, what's a good arbitrary day?

January 5th.

Yeah, I think that could be really funny right there.

That's very timely too.

I like it.

We can, we can make up a different YouTube account to ruin that algorithm.

Your call.

It's a lot of work.

You still have to sit through Fox News, so I don't blame

you if you just leave that in.

yeah.

Maybe somebody's made a highlight video already.

Did you see these folders

That's it.

Confidential.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That they're like there's such beautiful like leather bound

folders that have classified printed in Babylon five print on them.

That's a prop I want.

I want

I carry one of these around with me at all times.

Not like this specific one, but I have like a leather bound file that fits a

legal pad and a pen and some extra papers that I just have on me at all times.

In addition to my My Notes notebook, which I think I've talked about too,

I go through my notes books and with everything I'm actually already.

Maybe a third of the way through my new one that I got on April 18th of this year,

Yeah.

Solely because I'm now taking notes and recording two review podcasts.

Right.

Check out last time on listener.

so I've got all

Very good.

I'm caught up now.

Oh, I need, I'm not, I'm behind.

I haven't edited the episode that comes out in two days.

Oh, no.

Better get on

it's what I'll be doing when we're done talking.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I forgot to call out another fun prop in the previous scene when

they're doing the eyeball stuff.

He's looking at it with a like generic hairstylists

mirror,

That has Babylon five branded on the back, and I was like, I want

that and I want this notebook.

I need those two things.

It's a shame.

All the prop auctions for this show probably happened, you

know, a very long time ago.

I, I see the prop auctions for the Star Trek shows, you know, like

six, eight months after a run where they get rid of the stuff they're

not gonna need for the next season.

And I'm just like, ma'am, if only

if only I had all kinds of money.

in the early nineties.

Now I think that that Babylon five mirror, if I know someone

with a, a cricket machine who knows how to use it really well, I

could probably make that bad boy.

I bet you you could.

Might be able to order the uh, leather folders from someplace if

you were crafty enough with getting that classified print on there.

I, I dunno, I might have to give it a try.

Marcus and Franklin are gonna go to Mars to meet the resistance.

They're gonna have to go the long way around to avoid blockades.

It's gonna take two weeks.

Marcus's Bodyguarding, Steven, who represents the command staff, and part

of me is like, why not Ivana here?

I think you could tell an interesting story with Ivana and Marcus traveling

like this instead of Steven and

Oh yeah.

you, like he talks about his credibility and how he

would go himself, but he can't.

And then I'm all like, oh, well, if Ivana goes, the station will

literally fall apart after three days.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Fact.

space.

So,

You can't leave poor Corwin without Ivanova for this long.

Oh my God.

He's, I mean, you could tell another interesting story there, but yeah.

It's, it's not gonna go great for him.

Delen tries to piece out in the middle of the night,

but Lanier is waiting at space.

Tsa.

She didn't want to expose him to danger or her secrets, and he's like, fuck it.

We're going.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They arrive at Mumbar, at Len's Family Reunion where they're hosting an

intervention because they don't approve of her interracial relationship.

Yeah, they use the word purity later, like racial purity later, and

it's a little awkward considering we were kind of set up this whole series

as the mid bari being like enlightened.

They talk a big enlightened game for people to talk about racial purity.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Oh, and they question, you know, whether she's being led

by her heart or something else.

Yeah.

Start up the grill.

We're gonna steep some tea here.

Yeah.

Ugh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're not by love, but on their secret arbitrary criteria, which she is going

to have to guess and then appeal to.

Yeah.

So she has to go drink the liquid nitrogen cup.

Yeah.

To enter the dreaming while Lanier, while going into the same room and

drinking the same liquid as her is in the Whisper Gallery, and I just have to

say, That's the name of my new gay bar.

I'm, pivoting, I'm changing businesses.

I'm quitting my job and I'm opening a gay bar because the Whisper

Gallery is such a good fucking name.

Yeah.

I like it.

It feels a little timely too, unfortunately.

Uh, Has they enter linear's, like this ist your first time, right?

And she's all like, no, I did this as a guide for Duat.

Like you're doing for me now.

And we flash back to Delen and Ucatt in the force cave on Daba after it gets

a makeover from an over enthusiastic middle school drama teacher who just

got approval to buy two smoke machines.

Yeah, lots of wonderful fog up in here.

You know, we needed some fog to go with our triangles.

Delen flashes back to the attack that started the Earthman Bari war.

Deland is Brought by Ucatt to the Gray Council.

We see them debating, revealing themselves to humanity.

She quotes Vallen about the unknown only being able to harm you.

I think the narn would disagree there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dut shames the counsel for losing the simplest of life's joy

that of the child and the closed box.

This is me.

This is why I drunk order stuff online.

Sometimes I get surprises.

Like a few days ago, I got a D D V D of one of the worst movies ever

made that I had forgot I had found a copy of online for a few dollars.

But you gotta tell us what it

No, no, don't look at, it's terrible.

You don't wanna watch this movie.

This isn't, this isn't a so bad it's funny movie.

It's so bad.

It's painful.

I watched this movie in college on a lark, and it literally gave

one of my best friends a hangover.

He was not drinking.

The movie was so bad, it gave him a hangover.

Well, you're supposed to tell us what we need to avoid.

You can't find it.

There's one copy on Amazon for $40 right now.

I found one for seven.

It's, it's literally just a no name movie that doesn't exist.

You can't

I'm glad you didn't pay $40 for it.

I would have, it's sitting on a bookcase right now.

Just for the next time that best friend comes over, I'm gonna ask him to get

the thing next to it on the bookcase.

Nice.

That that's worth it.

That's worth $7.

Yeah.

For sure.

That's gonna be a great gag.

And he doesn't listen to this podcast, so I don't mind talking about it.

Nice.

Yeah.

So we see some more like of len's past with Zuko.

Mm-hmm.

Um, He takes her on as his mentee, and then when she becomes one of the nine

on the Great council there's a moment in the scene where the luminary glows in

her presence, and that seems significant.

there's some reactions from some, not everyone, but

some people on the Gray council,

Mm-hmm.

And we find out what these are very shortly, but it's clear that

some of these people know already.

Right before Jaco spills the beans on the Meir family secret humanity

shows up and starts blasting.

Yeah, I like that.

We also call out that the soul hunters are here.

It's not a soul hunter, it's a lot of soul hunters.

It looks like.

We know they only show up when there's gonna be deaths of important people,

Yep.

They're just like, oh shit.

It us bale.

Yeah.

And I think OTT actually attempts to have the gunports closed

It's too late

before humanity starts blasting.

It's just too late.

Yep.

Ducat dies.

Delen cast the deciding vote to start genocide and then Delen talks to Moran.

Moran.

I think it's gotta be Moran.

I just looked up the spelling.

I don't know if they actually say his name in the show, I don't remember,

I don't think they

but it's Robert Ed CanDos.

Oh

he becomes a series regular in season five as Byron.

This is his first appearance in B five, but he is also in your favorite

video game released after 2002.

He's got like 400 and something I M D B debt credits, and almost all of

them are voice acting in video games.

Oh, that's fun.

Claudia Christian did a bit of that too.

Yeah.

He's like, I look, I thought about all my favorite games

from like the two thousands, and he's in literally all of them.

It's not always a big part, but he's in all of them.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Do you think he was too recognizable after that as Byron

to get screen acting credits?

I don't think enough people watched Season five of Babylon five

on t n t for that to be an issue.

Yeah.

Anyways, it's a Holy War now, and Delaine was right.

If they had reached out this all would've been avoided.

Whoops.

She thinks back and can now hear Ducati's last words almost clearly.

Like she, she, she's in bed, she's thinking about the dreaming.

She's meditating on her time and the dreaming, and she was

just like, I've gotta go back.

It's just right there.

it's so close.

So she goes back, she drinks the liquid kaylin's, like, what the hell's going on?

And she's like, you can come with, I don't give a shit.

Yeah.

She just like tricks him into going in there.

Yep.

And so uh, it reveals that she's descendant of vallan dun, dun dun.

Yeah.

Sinclair is her 20 x great-grandfather.

Give or take a generation, assuming that Mumbai have kids every 50 years.

And it's been a thousand years.

Actually, I didn't have to do the math on this one, on how many

descendants there are of vain because someone did the math for me.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So it's uh, if it's, if they have kids, if they have, each minbar has two

kids and they have kids at 50 years.

50 years old to give a timeframe of how often the kids happen.

Um, It's not a ton.

Like it's, it's still a bunch, but it's not like uncountable.

But if you just take that from 50 years to 30 years instead, You go

from 20 generations since Vallen to 33 generations since Vallen and

it ease, it just becomes 8 billion.

Just like that, that

difference.

Well, each one is more and more and more, assuming that there's no like inbreeding.

Everyone who is a descendant to Vallen has children with someone

who is not a descendant to Vallan.

You know, so there it wouldn't actually work out like that,

but it's, it's interesting.

Yeah, he's, I think he says, Thousands or something.

Right?

Un Uncountable?

uncountable

uncountable number.

I wonder if every Mumbai with facial hair

Hmm.

Yeah.

vain, if that's a human trait that was recessive and managed to stick around.

That could be cool.

Yeah.

There's, if there was like one little thing that was kind of a, a telltale sign.

It's a shame that Sinclair wasn't like a ginger or something,

Yeah.

just mumbar with weird bones or something comes like, just a weird thing.

But I understand you want to have it.

It'd be a lot harder to do the uh, the plausible deniability of

racial purity if that was the case.

Right.

If there was something obvious that you could, could point to.

Yeah.

I, I think this is fun.

It does make me feel weird about, you know, I think you mentioned that if

Michael O'Hare hadn't been unwell, he would've stayed on the show.

If he still had become valan and they had had a relationship, that would be wild.

I don't know that you make DeLeT a descendant

I don't think he was gonna become vallen though, in that instance, right?

No.

Well, and also the like, Instead of Sheridan being the leader of the Army

of Light, there was gonna be a time jump and it was gonna be his and Delen kid.

Yeah.

Okay.

So there's that whole side of it too.

I think.

Yeah.

I haven't watched the uh, what if on that in a long time.

There's a, there's a video online where they're at a con and JMS goes in

a great detail about how the plot, if it, if Sinclair would've stuck around.

Yeah, if certain things hadn't happened, true,

yeah, maybe you time jump them because of before

when they go back or something.

Like you do it that way.

There's a couple ways you could do it without it being like weird.

yeah.

or rather, I guess making it more weird.

Before is such a good tool for a lot of things.

Before has to show up if there's a reboot, it just has to, right?

Oh yeah.

I mean, it's such a good thing.

Mm-hmm.

maybe that's the thing you don't bring back because you

know you can't do it as good.

Yeah.

I mean the, the, that episode was so good.

There'd be a lot of comparison to whatever was in the reboot to those episodes.

And nerds being as they are would probably not be kind no matter what you did.

You know, I don't know that I'm gonna get a chance to ask JMS a

question or see him at all at Comic Con.

But if

I

do,

that would be The question is, is there anything in original B five

that you don't wanna redo because you got it right the first time?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, I bet he'll say all of it.

Well, he will.

He wants to tell a new story.

But I mean, I'd be curious if there's like one thing in particular that it's

just like, I don't wanna retread this because I got it perfect the first time.

Mm-hmm.

Well, fingers crossed for that

encounter.

I'll be thinking of you.

So she goes back with Calin after all this and Calin confirms

that, uh, he knew of the mixed blood Mumbai culture can't handle this shock.

Who is this dude?

Like, he's like len's clan leader, I guess.

Yeah.

He seems

important to the

clan

ums, budsman or something like, you know,

Is he a member of the Gray Council

I don't think

they've been disbanded.

Was he

Was he, I don't, I don't know that you'd have two from the same clan.

I feel like that'd be something you'd try to avoid.

true?

True.

It just seems like, I thought someone expressed, I thought

linear expressed that this was Gray Council's knowledge, but maybe not.

Maybe it was Klan knowledge that

No, no.

He said it

was great counsel.

Yeah.

Yeah, cuz their security was still, their security just kept on

doing what they were doing because they didn't know what to do else, I guess.

Yeah.

Oh weird.

Anyways Calin frames, Delen and John's relationship as an old Mumbar tradition

where they would arrange a marriage between the two sides of the war.

And she's just like, whatever helps you sleep at night.

I'm going back to B five.

Yeah.

There's a whole bunch of

She's gonna let them have

Yeah, there's a lot in here about, well, you know, we don't

have racial purity and I'm part vallan, which means I'm part human.

And she's thrown that around real casually with linear,

like we know Sinclair's vallan, like, fuck off.

I think that would be a earth shattering, like for that, for anyone in their

society to know that Vallen was a human.

Yeah, she's kind of approaching it like that's already common

knowledge with this person in her clan.

Yeah, and I would not think that to be the case.

Yeah, that is a good point.

I don't know.

And you would think he would want some kind of proof or you

know, I guess maybe she's reported it back, but I would hope that.

You know, maybe we'd establish that in an earlier episode where she goes

and talks to somebody and establishes it with her people, that this is true.

I don't know.

It's weird.

Anyway, she's like, fuck off.

I'm going back to V five.

We see Marcus and Franklin suffering each other's company

and coach as he sings the credits.

Mm-hmm.

by the way, I hope whatever you're watching on

didn't skip episodes too quick.

Skip to the next one so that you could hear Franklin screaming.

Yeah.

This is real cute.

I enjoyed this a lot.

That's our episode.

How do you

feel about this one?

Oh wow.

this is a good episode.

It's a lot of setup for the Mumbai stuff that's coming down the road.

It almost feels like an out of place footnote, I don't know where

else you would put this episode.

But it doesn't feel like it belongs here, but also can't belong anywhere else.

Yeah, it is kind of strange like that.

I don't, I really don't know what, so I guess I'm gonna go with a 3.5.

It's not quite a four, but it's still a good episode.

It's just felt a little off to me.

Yeah, I definitely agree that it felt a little off.

It was like almost a bottle episode in a way

because it didn't do too much to the things that are around it.

It sent Franklin and Marcus off to start the next episode, basically.

Know, it kind of wrapped up some ends with the mbar, so it

wasn't totally bottle episode.

It had effects on the things around it.

I was actually kind of a little bit bored with the Mbar stuff.

Yeah, this episode

took

I don't know why.

longer to get through on my notes Watch than the next one did for sure.

Yeah, I don't know why.

It just didn't grab me and I was ready to give this thing a two and

then we got to that final scene.

Marcus is singing modern, major,

general, and we bring it into the credits as a little gag, which

this show doesn't do things like that often, like into the credits.

We always hear the Christopher Frank

Music.

But it brought in the, the Marcus singing and Franklin screaming

and I was just so charmed by that.

And then, you know, the interesting stuff with the, the props and

You know, the, the stuff with the men, bari is important stuff.

It's important lore.

I don't know.

I just kind of wish it, maybe, maybe it was something about the color palette

of all those scenes or, you know, the, the smokey fogginess or the pacing.

It was just, for me, it was very slow and I wasn't super grabbed by all of that.

And I honestly didn't remember it from the first time.

I'm sure I saw it.

Because I do remember Franklin and Marcus' little spy adventures starting

off, but it just didn't grab me.

So I, I bring it up to three because it had some of that classic

Babylon five charm that I love and good lore, but it almost was down

there in two territory for me.

I will say it's pretty normal for me when I'm taking my notes.

You know, like a 40, 40 minute episode of Babylon, five uses usually

about a hour and a half affair for me to get through a notes watch

to like sit here, write my notes, write the script, do the thing for

this episode of podcast, give or take, hour and a half, two hours.

This one took me like three.

But a lot of that was just like, oh, I'm bored.

So like, I get up, I make coffee, you know, like I get up from the

living room while I'm making coffee.

I'm all like, you know, the stove's a little uneven.

I redid this kitchen a year ago.

You know, I'm like looking at pictures on Facebook.

It's been a year since I've been in my new house.

Um, And I'm like, you know, I never did level the stove properly.

And so when I use this burner, my favorite burner, the oil kind of

sides to one side of the pan a little bit, I should probably level it.

I'm just gonna pull out the stove and do that right now.

Like literally anything.

But continue this episode to take notes.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I don't.

I attributed that to my mind state at the time and it just being Saturday morning

and it being a busy work week and me just being done with what, being fit.

Not like forced to do things, but

Yeah,

ready to relax a little and not do things that are of a mandatory nature.

yeah.

Like a requirement somehow.

You just wanna have some free time, free play.

exactly.

And this episode was not fulfilling that for me.

So I just kind of attributed it to that.

But knowing that you had similar issues with this episode,

Mm-hmm.

maybe it is the episode's fault.

Yeah, I, I don't know if it's pacing or, or something

about the, the visuals.

It just didn't grab me as hard as some other episodes.

Speaking of other episodes, maybe ones that are gonna grab me,

why don't you tell me about the

we got season four, episode 10 racing Mars Sheridan

clashes with Garibaldi.

I would probably word that the other way around Franklin and Marcus encounter

trouble near the Mars Resistance Camp.

That's our whole episode description.

Yeah, it sounds like it's getting good though.

Yeah.

Well, we'd like to thank Jeremy Siegel for our lovely.

Lovely theme music.

Thank you Jeremy for putting that together for us.

We truly appreciate it.

You can find more of Jeremy's work at Jeremy Siegel 40 two.bandcamp.com

and on streaming platforms as Nu Jua.

Second pronunciation take.

Yeah.

And thank you to Angry Duck Time Machine on Instagram for our podcast

Thank you, Aaron for editing our podcast.

Truly appreciate all the effort you put into making sure that this is a

listenable show that people laugh at and not just rambling for an hour.

Yeah, you're the real mvp,

And finally, thank you listener for choosing to spend your time with

Laura and I as we go over Babylon five.

It truly means the world to us.

You can email us who are u b five gmail.com.

I still check Twitter occasionally we have a Facebook, but the

Discord is where it's at.

Hop on our Discord.

Interact with our community there.

It's a great time.

We'll see you next week.

Internet.

Yeah, thanks for being here.

Bye.