Lucy Apps on Gloria Don’t Speak

In this episode, I’m joined by Lucy Apps to discuss her debut novel Gloria Don’t Speak, recently longlisted for the Women’s Prize for Fiction. We talk about the inspirations behind the novel, her writing life, and what it’s like to receive such major literary recognition.

At the heart of the conversation is Gloria; a young woman with learning disabilities navigating friendship, vulnerability, and independence in East London. Lucy shares how she approached crafting Gloria’s voice with authenticity and care, and why it was so important to tell a story that reflects the often-overlooked experiences of adults with learning disabilities.

We also explore the themes of trust, trauma, and connection within the novel, alongside a broader discussion about care, autonomy, and representation in fiction. Plus, Lucy shares some of the books that have shaped her life and thinking as a writer.

📚 By Lucy Apps

• Gloria Don't Speak

✨ Books Mentioned

Born to be Wild: The Livewire Guide to Saving Animals by Juliet Galletley - Currently Unavailable on bookshop.org

Obedience to Authority by Stanley Milgram

Nightbirds on Nantucket by Joan Aiken

Bodies by Jed Mercurio

Immanuel by Matthew McNaught

I’ll be back next week with another author conversation, and I’d love for you to join me for that too.

In the meantime, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review Best Book Forward, and don’t forget to tell your friends... it really helps new listeners discover the show.

See you tomorrow, and happy listening.

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Foreign.

Welcome back to Best Foot Forward.

I'm your host, Helen, and this is the podcast where I talk to authors about the books that have shaped their lives.

You can think of it as a little like a bookish version of Desert Island Discs.

Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Lucy Apps.

Lucy's debut novel, Gloria Don't Speak was published earlier this year and has since been announced as one of the longlist for the Women's Prize for Fiction.

Gloria Don't Speak tells the story of a young woman named Gloria with learning disabilities who spends her days wandering local parks looking for friends and trying to stay out of trouble.

She strikes up a friendship with an angry and unpredictable man named Jack.

And after an act of violence that sees Jack being sent to prison, Gloria's world is turned upside down.

What follows is a heartbreaking portrayal of a young woman dealing with vulnerability, violence and a desire for connection.

Lucy joins me today to discuss Gloria Don't Speak her inspirations and what she hopes that readers will take away from the novel.

Of course, later in the show we'll also talk about the five books that have shaped Lucy's life.

So let's get straight into it and give Lucy a warm welcome to the show.

Lucy, hi.

Welcome and thank you so much for joining me on Best Foot Forward today.

I'm so happy to have you here.

Thanks for having me.

I'm really happy to be here.

So we're here to talk about your incredible debut novel Gloria Don't Speak, which is out now.

And I'd love if you could start off by giving listeners an idea of what it is all about.

So it's about a woman named Gloria and she has a learning disability.

Excuse me.

It starts off when she's 19, she's just finished full time education, she doesn't really have anything to do.

There's no kind of programs or schemes available at that point.

And she's just kind of wandering around in the little bit of East London that I live in and that she lives in and kind of just meeting random people, trying to make connections.

And she meets this guy named Jack who he's quite dodgy, he's got a kind of energy that a lot of people would try to avoid but she sort of sees past that.

They do become friends but there's a lot of tension there and in the end something pretty awful happens and then that kind of spirals events and we do follow her for like 20 years and see how that impacts on her.

It is a brilliant read.

It's a really as I said, we'll talk about sort of Gloria and what happens to her, but we will keep it spoiler free as well, so we won't talk too much about some of the things that are coming up.

But should we go back to the beginning, then, and find out where the inspiration.

Because I know you wrote it quite a while ago, but where did the inspiration originally come from for Gloria?

I wanted to write about an adult with a learning disability, because I just feel that you don't really see those stories, be it books, tv, film.

They're not people who are normally centered.

And I just felt there was something missing there, so I wanted to do that.

And I think there's lots of things that play into that.

Like, if you're working, especially with someone who's minimally verbal, you often have to really think about what's going on in their head and sort of get alongside them and think about how things are landing for them and how they're interpreting things and stuff.

So, in a way, it's kind of a lot like the process of starting to write fiction, when you're starting to think about your main character.

So there was a kind of crossover there.

Again, that was interesting for me.

So, yeah, that was why I wanted to do it, really.

Okay.

As you say, it is something that we're not seeing in fiction and in media as well, I think, and we will talk about later.

But I think this is the first reading experience I've certainly had of a character like Gloria as well.

So let's talk a little bit about your background, which is really interesting.

So you're a doctor, you're a gp, and I know you do voluntary work with women with learning disabilities.

How if.

How did those sort of experiences shape the story?

And were there any sort of particular moments when you were doing your voluntary work, or is the GP that you thought this story really has to be told?

And the sort of idea for Gloria came through.

I mean, it was before I was doing voluntary work.

I was working with kids with special needs, and we went all the way up to like, 18, so I was doing that during medical school.

So I got to know those kids and families and stuff.

So that was when I was quite young.

I mean, I think I was like, 19 myself when I was doing that, all the way through to kind of my mid-20s, and I really enjoyed it.

And then when I sort of had a bit more time available to me, that's why I ended up going to volunteer with adult women with learning disabilities, because I sort of wanted to get back to that.

And, yeah, I think.

I mean, I write a lot.

I've kind of always got a novel on the go in terms of writing one.

So I'd written a few novels before I wrote Gloria, and it was.

It was a subject that I wanted to write about.

But, like, there was a lot of subjects that I wanted to write about, and that was one of them.

And I think I'd written a novel just before I wrote Gloria where I didn't really like either of the main characters.

So I wanted to write something where I felt that the main character was somebody that I liked and that I was sort of sympathetic towards.

So, yeah, I think that that's what prompted me to write it then, I think.

But, I mean, I've got lot of ideas for things I want to write, and that was just one of them.

That's so interesting.

You say about Gloria.

She is.

I was really struck at how quickly I sort of fell for her.

Like, I really, really cared for her as well.

I'd love to talk about Gloria herself, then.

So where did she come from for you?

Like, was she a character that sort of.

You knew the story for, or was she one that needed sort of connection, coaxing onto the page a little bit more?

Where did she actually sort of bring herself to you?

I think she.

She and Jack both came to me quite quickly.

And the kind of, like.

I think when you've got a good dynamic like that, a kind of good friction, then you.

It's easier to sort of develop both characters.

But she was there.

She was kind of.

I.

Looking back, I feel like she was there pretty fully formed.

But I have gone back and looked at my very, very early attempts at writing her, and she was quite different to how she is now.

So actually, probably she wasn't as fully formed as she felt.

I think the first scene that I wrote where I really felt like I got her was.

I don't know if you remember, there's a little bit in the book when she talks about when she was younger and she went camping.

Yes.

So that was the first bit that I got on the page where I was like, this is the character.

And this is kind of a lot of the tensions that she's dealing with and the kind of desires that she has and stuff, and it sort of spread out from there.

But, yeah, I mean, I think it's easy to look back and feel like she was fully formed, but she probably wasn't.

So it's quite a long way away.

Yeah, it's so interesting how.

I mean, we'll talk about that a little bit as well.

Like how I often say as a reader, I think there's right book, wrong time.

But I do wonder, you know, with Glory coming out this year, if it sort of shows maybe that we're more open as readers to have a bit more diversity.

And, you know, I don't know what you think about that.

Whether it wasn't picked up.

Was it not picked up, or was it just that it wasn't ready?

It took you a long time to write.

I think there was a bit of both.

I mean, I sent it out a lot to a lot of different people and couldn't really get any interest for a long time.

And then when I sent it to Weather Glass a couple of years ago now, they liked it, but they did say, like, they did ask me to kind of do a big edit before they took it on.

So I think there was a bit of both.

I think it was that people kind of.

I don't know.

I mean, I can't say why people didn't want it, but obviously they had their reasons.

But then also it was probably because it was a bit of a mess as well.

Well, everything needs work.

Nothing.

Yeah, no author, I don't think, ever has the perfect first draft that's ready to go.

Well, true, but I mean, certainly where the Glass were able to kind of see the potential in it, and it feels that other people couldn't.

But I don't know why.

I mean, I don't know why that was.

I don't.

I can't explain it.

The optimist, to me, wants to believe it.

Shows that there's an openness now and sort of a willingness to have conversations and, you know, everyone.

To be able to see somebody they know or recognize or that you don't know or recognize, but to be able to find empathy for different experiences, that's the optimist in me.

I don't know if that's true or not.

Let's hope so.

So Gloria is minimally verbal, which must have brought a lot of challenges for you to sort of bring her voice and her story to the page.

So.

Because when you read it, I. I felt like I really understood her very well and I understood what was going on for her.

So how did you craft that?

How did you bring her to life on the page when you couldn't sort of use very open dialogue with her?

So when I First started writing, I did start trying to write in first person, and it just didn't work.

I mean, when I say this, people seem to think that I wrote the whole thing in first person and went, no, it's not working.

I mean, I wrote about 1 or 2,000 words, and I was just like, I can't get this off the ground.

And then in the end, I sort of went with copy close.

Third.

I was like, okay, let me write in third person.

And then that just became close.

It was just close.

And I was like, hey, this.

This works.

I can do this.

I think in terms of her voice, I just really, really thought about what is her inner experience here and how does this feel to her and what are the things that she's noticing.

Which is one of the reasons why I set it in an area that I know really well, because I was like, I need to be able to just know what all the details, sensory details are here, because this character is just going to notice everything, and certain things will stick out to her that are more kind of significant.

But I need to be able to just have that in my mind's eye so that I can just reach for it.

And then I also, like with language, I was thinking about the voices that she's hearing.

So, you know, she's hearing people.

She's growing up in Newham.

She's hearing people at school use slang and probably picking up some of that.

She's picking up some of the ways her family talk.

She's picking up phrases that people have used.

So she'll kind of.

She'll think a certain thing, and it'll be a phrase that her mom said, and she'll be using that phrase to kind of explain something to herself rather than using her own words.

I mean, I think she.

She is somebody who.

I've given myself a bit of license because for her, for me, for her, she will think about phrases that she's heard other people say, and she'll use those phrases as shorthand in her head for how she's.

What she's thinking and to explain things to herself.

But also, I think when she does have a concrete thought of her own, not that they aren't thoughts of her own, but when she's using her own language, in reality, it would take her longer to put that into words.

She'd be at the next thought before she's put that into words.

So when I'm writing it, I'm kind of going, well, look, if she's got the concept, then I've got the words.

For that concept, even if she doesn't actually have the language.

So that's how I tried to play it.

I think you kind of needed to do that as well, because as a reader, we needed to sort of build that empathy for her, so we needed to have that sort of understanding and connection.

To me, it felt very real.

Like, I really did feel like I was with her and understanding her.

And something that really struck me is how quickly.

I mean, I remember posting, I think I'd read 20 pages, and I was like, I'm really concerned about this character.

I really feel for her as well, which is, you know, it's incredible.

You think words on a page have got me worrying about this character in terms of the story and how it gets going then how.

So obviously you have her voice that you're building.

How did you draw us in so quickly and build that empathy and sort of make us realize what was happening between her and Jack?

Or was that sort of always the strong start?

I mean, that opening was always there for them to be together in that room and having the kind of conversation that they're having.

What I.

Oh, interesting.

But that's when I restructured it, when sort of weather glass said, you know, make it chronological.

And I think that really worked.

Yeah,.

Yeah.

And I'm just thinking about that, actually, because I'm trying to sort of tread carefully on spoilers, but I think sort of, as you read it chronologically, you see the repercussions of what she's gone through.

And I just don't know.

I can't imagine that as.

I mean, I'm sure you would have done it and you would have done it.

I mean, to kind of pull that apart, it changed the book a lot.

And I had to add a lot of scenes in and take a lot of scenes out and stuff.

So it's not like it's just the same thing, but taken apart, it is still quite different.

But, yeah, I think it was a bit.

I think it worked better this way.

I think it expresses what I want to express more.

Well, the reading experience for it is.

I mean, it's a difficult read in places, but it's one that I found I didn't want to put down because I needed to sort of stay with her and sort of Understand?

It's hard to say, isn't it?

I could have read it as like a dual timeline and be saying like, it's amazing as well.

But what you've written is a really, really brilliant book.

It is fabulous.

Thank you.

So shall we talk about this relationship then between Gloria and Jack?

I said to you earlier, there were some scenes between the two of them that had me so stressed.

I was so worried.

I think the mum in me was going crazy for Gloria.

She's so vulnerable.

He is very angry.

He's quite volatile.

And there are some scenes between them that are really tense that had me sort of really scared for Gloria.

So if I'm experiencing those emotions when I'm reading it, what was it for you to write?

Because I'm guessing Gloria became a character that you've really cared about as well.

So to sort of see her in those situations, was that difficult to put yourself in the room with those two?

I mean, I. I love.

I love writing.

I really love it when I'm kind of like just there in the moment in the novel.

And sometimes the more stressful it is and the more real it feels, the better for me because that just allows me to really just be there.

So I. I enjoyed writing those scenes and I. I kind of.

I just enjoyed the tension.

I enjoyed, like, the emotion of it.

The thing that I found actually more difficult to write was when she got arrested.

That.

I mean, that was.

But it does sort of.

I mean, there's lots.

I mean, I was just going to talk about her being a witness.

Obviously, she witnesses this terrible event.

And.

Those scenes as well, when she's been asked to sort of tell people what's happened.

You know, she's struggling to sort of verbalize as well, but she's dealing with that trauma internally.

I found that really, really heart wrenching for her.

Yeah.

But it also made me sort of wonder as well about that sort of.

You know, victims aren't particularly treated well, you know, in court or the police.

And I hadn't really sort of thought about that.

From, like, people with learning difficulties.

Yeah.

Neurological.

You know, we're from a very neurodiverse family as well.

So it's.

That sort of conversation was.

But yeah, when, later, when she was arrested, I was like, oh, Gloria.

Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, that, like, that moment was.

I didn't.

Didn't like it, but I was like.

And I. I wrote it in a much more gentle way.

And then I was like, no, it's not going to be like that.

I have to make it a Bit harsher.

But yeah, I mean, yeah, she has a, A really difficult time.

I think part of it for me is that sometimes when you're with somebody who's non verbal and they kind of, they're getting stressed or upset about something or whatever, there's, there's a tendency to be like, this is all related to environmental stimuli.

You know, okay, maybe they're upset in the bathroom because they don't like the sound of the hand dryer or whatever, stuff like that.

And a lot of the time, you know, that's, that's true and it's worth thinking about.

But I think sometimes people, like anybody, people with learning disabilities get upset because of stuff that they've remembered or stuff that's going on for them that you don't necessarily know about or some kind of internal thing, you know, that they're dealing with, just like I would.

And so I kind of wanted to put that in there as well.

Like especially later on in the kind of second half of the book that actually, yeah, she's stressed because of something that you guys just don't really know about.

So you see that sort of repercussion of this event that she's witnessed and it's like she is carrying that trauma but unable to sort of.

I guess if it was happened to you or I, we might sort of say, well, that was really awful, Let me go for counseling, I need to talk about that.

But she sort of carries it within her and I was sort of.

It's difficult because, you know, people do obviously really care for her and they sort of try to support her through, but she's not getting the sort of emotional support of dealing with that event.

Is she really that sort of.

No.

And I think, you know, I mean, you know, this was an act of imagination for me.

I don't know what goes on in anybody else's head, but I think that that is, that is something that can happen for adults with learning disabilities is that they go through something awful and then there's not really a way, there's not really a good way to, for them to express it, for people around them to help them express it.

It's difficult.

It's really.

But also the thing I was thinking as well is like, would, Would she be seen as a reliable witness as well?

Like, you know, she, she's seen things and she knows exactly what's happened, but she has this.

Yeah, it's really.

It's such a big conversation, isn't it?

The things that, I mean, I love books that make you Stop and sort of really consider other people's lives.

And this really did for that in so many ways.

But yeah, those.

Particularly those scenes when she's with the police and.

Or just like having like those thoughts in her head of trying to process it.

I was like, it's.

It's really hard.

In terms of writing Gloria, then, you know, obviously you've done a lot of work with people with learning disabilities that you.

You know what you're seeing.

But to put yourself into Gloria's sort of shoes and sort of see the world through her eyes, did you have any ways.

I mean, obviously you're a gp, so you're busy working.

When you come to sit down and write, do you have anything that you do to sort of take yourself out of yourself and put yourself into Gloria to see it from her point of view?

Are there any techniques that you use or rituals maybe?

No, I don't.

I just sort of sit down and just think about it and do it.

But what I do do often, I mean, not just with Gloria, but with like kind of anything that I'm writing, is I do make a playlist.

Yeah.

And like, it's like, it's not just a playlist about Gloria.

It's a playlist about other characters in a book, a playlist about moments, a playlist about sort of tone, some of the songs that she is hearing and listening to as well.

And then I will listen to that a lot, like when I'm sort of commuting, when I'm on the bus, whatever, and think about it then.

So without doing any writing, you know, I'm just thinking about it.

So then I think when I do come to sit down and write, I've actually done a lot of thinking kind of in my day to day life.

So it's kind of.

It's kind of there, it's ready to flow.

And if you get your spine to self, where you get to a point where you're stuck in a scene or you don't know how to, what do you do?

Do you try and just sort of plow through, or do you take yourself.

I mean, do you go and sit on a bench like Gloria and sort of watch the world go by or.

So when I was redrafting, I knew where I was going and I knew the characters and I knew the world really well.

So I.

It kind of just broke itself, really.

But when I was writing a first draft, there were definitely moments where I was like, I don't know what happens next.

And then at that point I will go and do something else.

You know, usually something physical like just go for a walk or go to the gym or whatever and just leave it for a bit.

Sometimes I will try and plow through it.

Never ends up good.

But what can happen is that as you're writing it, something else comes to your mind, and then you just delete the last 500 words and you actually go with what you wanted to do.

But, yeah, so I'll either leave it or very occasionally I will just force it through and then see if something else emerges.

Interesting.

Okay, so at the beginning of the book, we see Gloria, and she's out and about in the world on her own.

She's sort of wandering in parks and, you know, the kids are being mean to her.

And my first reaction to it was.

And I do feel embarrassed that it was sort of.

I guess it comes from a place of privilege that I didn't.

You know, I haven't had to think of this before.

I was like, where.

Where are her parents?

You know, who's.

Who's looking out for her?

She clearly needs some.

Somebody or somewhere to go.

And then I sort of sat down and thought about it, thinking, you know, parents with adult children with learning disabilities don't receive a lot of help.

There's not always programs for them to go to, and they need to earn money.

So was one of your aims with writing it to sort of challenge those perceptions that readers might have?

Well, I mean, that's just what I know, you know, like, I come from this area, and I know, like, the people that I know with LD and the families that I know who have people with learning disabilities in them are kind of from this area and from this kind of economic background.

So I was just writing within that situation.

But I have to say that when, you know, when I was saying that you don't really see representations of adults with learning disabilities, what you do sometimes sees representations of children with learning disabilities.

I feel like there's more of a space for that, for people to accept that.

And I do find that whenever you see those, it's always very well off families.

It tends to be kind of the few examples that I can think of.

There doesn't seem to be any sort of financial stress in those situations.

It seems to be well resourced.

It's almost as if, like, you can only have one issue at a time.

So I did want.

I did think, you know, I want to.

I want this to be set locally, and I want it to be set with kind of, you know, a more working class sort of Family, or not necessarily working class, but a family that hasn't got that kind of money.

So, yeah, I. I just wanted to make sure that that was there and it wasn't just people with more access to funds, but it was really just.

I. I was just like, well, you don't see it.

This is what I see in my life, and I don't see it anywhere in kind of media, so I just want to represent it.

You're right, actually thinking about that, because, yeah, I think you do see children with learning disabilities more.

And I was thinking.

I was like, you're.

Yeah, probably.

I think it is that sort of thing.

Like Gloria being older and just having nobody just.

I mean, it really sort of struck me.

And actually, we'll talk about it in a minute.

But I do have somebody who I know who is a character carer to her adult son as well.

It's like, it's so important to put yourself into other people's shoes and sort of recognize the struggle.

I mean, it's so easy to be like, oh, where's the person caring for her?

She needs somebody to be with her.

But actually, the reality is we don't all have, you know, that support.

So, yeah, so carers and being cared for is a huge theme in the book, which I really, really found interesting to read.

Towards the end of the book, we sort of see Gloria's mum starting to make provisions for herself aging as well, and Gloria goes off to live in a home.

And it really made me sort of think about dignity and independence and it's such an important conversation to have, like, around carers.

So is that one of your hopes that people will start to talk about, you know, what we can do as society to help people who need this support?

I mean, my hope is just that adults with learning disabilities will become more visible in general and sort of more part of kind of narratives and conversations and stuff.

I mean, that's.

I think that's a massive aim for the book.

And really my hope is just that the book's enjoyable and it grabs people and they want to read it, and then like, whatever they do with it after that, that's really kind of up to them.

But, yeah, I mean, it would be lovely if that was something that the book helped to achieve.

I'm glad that you said what you said, because a few people have said to me, like, how could her mom put her in a home?

What was that about?

And I'm saying, look, you know, sometimes what happens is people stay with their parent and then their parent passes away and they find their parent, you know, and then they have to go into a home and they have to have all of this upheaval all at the same time with no one to advocate for them, no one to make sure that the home that they're in is actually a good place for them.

And, you know, Gloria's mom, I think, did the best thing that she could for Gloria by getting her settled somewhere great or, you know, at least okay for her when she could still make sure that that was the case and she was still healthy enough to kind of be around for her daughter and stuff.

So it is a reality that adults.

That parents of adult children with learning disabilities have to think about and fast face.

And I.

Quite a few people sort of just.

They.

They haven't.

They.

They didn't see that when they were reading the book.

They didn't see that that was kind of a thing that you'd have to consider.

So I'm glad that you sort of saw it.

Saw it in that light rather than in the light of her mom just being like, oh, you know, off you go.

She.

But she.

I mean, I think you see a journey with her mom as well, even though she's not a massive part of the story, as in, you know, she's not there for everything.

But at the beginning, you know, she.

She's very aware that Gloria's going out and she's meeting people and she'll be home before it gets dark.

Don't have me worrying.

So there's obviously a lot of love there.

And I.

To me, that just felt like.

I mean, my.

I've got children who are teenagers, and I guess, you know, I would be sort of thinking you're making sure that in some way they're sort of protected in whatever way I can for the future.

But for Gloria's mum, you know, she has to make sure that she's in her home.

I mean, I hadn't even thought of, like, what would happen if her mum had passed away early, you know, for Gloria when she was younger.

But it just felt very loving to make sure that she was there and built a relationship with her carers as well, so she could tell them about Gloria, you know, things that she recognizes.

So, yeah, I thought this.

I thought it was a really beautiful thing.

Difficult, but beautiful.

She did.

So.

Yeah.

So I reached out to a friend of mine who has an adult son with learning disabilities who lives at home with her.

I knew she'd read the book, and I wanted to sort of chat to her about her experience of reading it and say, you know, is there anything that you would like to know from Lucy?

So she said she would love to know what you hope readers are taking away from Gloria's story and whether you see a future for Gloria that includes joy.

I mean, I would absolutely love it if it just made people sort of take people with learning disabilities more seriously and be more interested in them and curious about them and their lives and then in terms of a future with joy.

Yeah, of course.

I mean, I think Gloria is going to have a complicated future, like we all are, with some joy and some sadness.

I am somebody who enjoys writing bleak stuff.

That's what I like.

And kind of everything I've written, regardless of whether it's about somebody with a learning disability or somebody who is completely sort of not disabled, neurotypical, as they say, it's always bleak wherever I write.

So it's not because I don't think I've written a bleak novel because Gloria has a learning disability.

And I think that's always bleak.

I've just written it because that's what I.

That's where my mind goes.

But I don't.

I don't think Gloria is going to have an entirely bleak future.

I think she's going to have a lot of joy and like a lot of people with learning disabilities, most people learning to have sort of joy and laughter and misery and difficulty and happiness and excitement and fun, like, it's just a tapestry, like everybody's life is.

And I think for when I was thinking about this, like, when you see her towards the end in the home, her carers are caring for her because it's their job, but they also felt like they really cared.

Yeah.

Which I just thought that's where I wanted her to be.

I wanted her to have a safe space.

Yeah.

Even at times they might find her a bit frustrating or difficult and, you know, they are genuinely caring.

And.

Yeah, I was like, that must be where her joy will come from, having, like, stability as well.

So let's.

Yeah.

Do you sort of see her now?

Just thought this popped into my head.

Like, I have to wonder with authors, like, when you finish the book, do you sort of imagine her life going forward or do you leave her where you've left her in the book?

Yeah.

No, I don't.

I don't imagine her life going forwards.

No.

Yeah.

It's just the.

The events of the book are basically.

And some.

Some sort of deleted scenes, basically the events that are happening.

But I don't know if other authors do differently with their Characters, I don't know.

Yeah, I know.

I spoke somebody and they said they knew where they would be, what happened in their lives.

I was like, so interesting.

I love like the idea of all these characters living in authors minds.

It's so interesting.

So Gloria Don't Speak is on the long list for the women's prize for fiction this year, which is incredible.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

What was that moment like for you, Lucy?

See when you heard the news that.

You were there, that was absolutely crazy.

I, I got a phone call from the publisher and I was on the Elizabeth line and I was just going, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.

I can't believe it.

That's amazing.

And sort of laughing and laughing and stuff.

Yeah, it's kind of.

And then I was like afterwards I was like, did that, did I imagine that?

And I actually checked my phone log to make sure that the conversation had actually happened because I was like maybe I just hallucinated it.

But yeah, it's absolutely crazy.

I wasn't expecting anything like that to happen for this book.

I mean it, you know, Weather Glass are a great publisher, but they're a small publisher and you know, they even their expectation as well was they were saying to me this probably isn't going to like be a massive book.

You know, I was just very, very happy to get it published.

I was like, that's fine.

I just want it out there.

Certainly I wasn't expecting it to be longest if at a women's prize.

No, I love that.

Do you know it's so fun you say that about checking your phone.

Yeah, I sometimes will do things like this.

I'm like, it's almost like you can't allow yourself to believe.

Like yeah, did I just.

I've not hallucinated anything else in my life.

But yeah, yeah.

I'm like, oh.

Or I'm like, oh.

I wonder if they meant somebody else.

I wonder if they are the wrong author.

Seeing Gloria Don't Speak on the long list, I had been sent a copy just before and it was sort of.

It caught my attention before it was on there.

But I think those prizes generate so much sort of conversation they get people reading.

So it feels really important that it's on the list as well.

So I think it's a huge achievement as well.

And I, I don't know when the shortlist announced.

I think it's.

It, it's next month sometime.

Yeah.

Well, best of luck.

I would love to thank you go through on this one as well.

I mean I'm I'm happy.

I'm just so happy to be on a long list, you know, like, anything more is really a bonus, but obviously it'd be great.

Yeah, I know it's been out a little while now, obviously from Women's Prize.

People are picking it up as well.

What have been the reactions that you've been having from readers?

Have people been getting in touch with you to tell you what they thought?

Are people saying to.

Like, a few people have.

Couple of people on Instagram have got in touch and said that, you know, they really enjoyed it.

People have been putting, I'm not on like Tick tock or anything, I'm basically just on Instagram.

But people.

A few people have kind of tagged me in reviews that they've done and stuff and all saying that they're really enjoying it and it's nice to see, like, people connect with it and to see the things in it that I was hoping they would see.

That's a really great feeling.

It's lovely.

Particularly, I guess because it's been such a long journey for you to sort of finally have it in people's hands.

Must just be surreal as well to be getting some ranked in reviews now.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah.

I was just thinking earlier when you were saying, we were talking, I was like, it feels like it was probably really the right book for you to keep sort of persevering as well.

Like, I mean, I guess a lot.

I think that there's other novels that I've written that I've submitted, haven't got anywhere with, and then I've just put them away.

But this one was whenever I reached a point in my life where I was like, okay, I've got a bit of time to write.

I would always come back to this book and be like, well, how can I improve it?

Maybe I can send it to someone else.

You know, I just could.

I couldn't really let go of it.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

Well, congratulations.

I know it's only just been out a little while, so it's a bit naughty to ask, but are you working?

I know you say you do a lot of writing, but are you working on anything coming soon, maybe next year or beyond?

Oh, I don't know about that.

I mean, I couldn't.

I couldn't say that it's coming soon.

I've got a draft of a new novel, but I don't.

I mean, haven't got a publisher for it or Anything like that.

So it's not as if it's coming soon, but there is a draft, so hopefully I'll be able to get somewhere with it.

I'm sure you will.

We'll watch this space.

So.

So, Gloria, Don't Speak is out now.

It is a brilliant read, definitely one I would recommend.

So do grab a copy.

So, Lucy, we're going to talk about the books that you've picked before we do.

All of these books are linked in the show notes and I've put links to buy as well, so nice and easy for everyone to find.

So how did you find?

It's a really interesting list.

None of these are being picked and I haven't read any of these.

I am so interested to hear about these books.

How was it for you to narrow it down to five?

It was so difficult.

You know, I emailed you and I was like, can I have non fiction?

And I was sort of hoping that you would say no because that would just make it easier.

But then you said yes and I was like, oh my God, I just can't, like.

And there's books that I genuinely felt guilty about leaving off.

And I actually, I started rereading.

You know, I said to you, there's a couple of writers that really sort of shaped my life in a way.

And I started rereading one of those books and then read the next one and then started reading another writer off the back of that.

Like, I'm just kind of.

It was so hard.

But yeah, I mean, there's one.

There's like one book on there that wasn't hard at all that I would always say this concretely is the book that has shaped my life the most.

And obviously I just decided to leave aside, like religious texts.

Yeah, but.

But yeah, it was very difficult.

I'm looking at your list.

I'm like, I wonder which one it is.

Okay, well, let's.

Let's get started then.

Do you want to tell us about book number one, which is that I've got Born to Be Wild.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's the one that, if you ask me which book changed your life, it would or shaped your life.

This is the book that I can concretely say.

Like, you can literally draw a line between when I, before I read it and after I read it.

So it's basically I. I was a vegetarian when I was young.

I went vegetarian when I was really young.

And then when I was a teenager, I was like, is this something that I want to continue with or.

Or is this Something that actually, you know, it's a childish idea, and I just want to put it aside.

So I found this book and I read it, and it's just all about, like, the awful ways that animals are treated in factory farming, slaughterhouses, various different industries, leather industry, fur industry, that kind of stuff.

And it was awful.

Like, reading it was just absolutely appalling.

Kept me up at night.

And when I read it, I was like, yeah, I'm going to be vegan.

I can't.

I cannot taking this.

Like, it's just awful.

I sort of felt like there's probably nothing I can do to stop it or change it, but at least I don't have to be involved with it.

And so I went vegan as a result of reading that book, and I still am.

And that basically just led me to different places.

It made me meet different people.

It's kind of made me try a lot of food that I wouldn't have tried.

So it meant that I had to sort of stand up for myself and stand up for my ideas and for what I believed.

And, like, got a lot of challenges and kind of a lot of people with something to say about it.

So it just pushed me to a different place.

Well, everyone loves an opinion, don't they?

But I guess also then, I mean, now pretty much everywhere you go, you can get something that's vegan or, you know, it's.

It's.

It's out there.

And, you know, you find cafes and things.

But was difficult.

But I know when my sister was vegetarian, like, we would find even that.

Like, how is this difficult?

Like, how is it difficult to just eat out and be vegetarian?

I saw this.

I was like, what age were you when you read this then?

I think I was about 13 or 14.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's incredible that you made that.

We saved my daughter.

She's very.

She's got very strong mind.

And, like, when she makes sense, I was like, she's just started to sort of really talk about animal testing for makeup and things.

And I was like, yeah, we're definitely, you know, good for her, you know, like, find what you believe in.

But I think it's great, particularly for young teens, to find it in a book as well, if you haven't got people around you who are talking about it.

Yeah.

I mean, these days, I probably would have found it on the Internet.

Yeah.

But this.

That book I just found in my Local bookshop.

And I was like, okay, this is the sort of information I've been looking for.

Let me read it.

Yeah, okay, amazing.

So should we move on to book number two then?

You'll have to remind me which one it is.

Okay.

I've got Obedience to authority.

Oh yeah.

So that's really interesting.

I don't know.

Again, it's non fiction.

I don't know if you're aware of like this experiment.

I'd heard about it.

I haven't heard about the book, but yeah.

So basically, like the way that it's kind of generally told is basically after World War II there were a lot of psychologists who wanted to try and understand how kind of the, like the Holocaust had happened, how people had been able to participate in that.

You know, I think there was this whole thing of like all these normal people just sort of went and did this.

And so there was a. I think there was a lot of work around how do, how do atrocities happen?

And this guy set up this experiment where the, the way that it's generally told is that he, he had this person who was meant to be learning like a basic kind of test with right and wrong answers.

And then he had someone who was the educator who was meant to be administering a test.

And if the person got an answer wrong, then they were to get an electric shock.

And it was to kind of show a way of teaching them.

But the electric shock could go all the way up to a level where it looked like it was going to kill them.

And as they got the answers wrong, they had to get a higher and higher level of electric shock.

But the real experiment was that the person doing the teaching and administering the shock was someone who was being experimented on, was a volunteer, but the person receiving the shocks was actually an actor.

And so the real question that they were asking wasn't about can you learn by punishment, it was about how far will this person go in order to administer these shocks to this person?

And actually when I first heard about this, I was told that, you know, with the experiment telling people to do it, they were, they were all going all the way.

But actually that wasn't the case.

But he had so many varieties of how he set this up.

So he would have like someone with, they'd have a scientist in a white coat being like, you have to administer the shot.

This is your role in the experiment which need to find out about this learning.

And they would have, sometimes they would have the person doing, getting the answers wrong in a different room down the corridor.

So the Teacher couldn't see them.

So they were just getting these answers coming through on a screen.

And then they would have to press the button to give the shock.

Or sometimes they would have the see through the window, and you could see them reacting with pain to each chocolate they got.

And sometimes you would be right.

They would be right in the room with them, and they would have to put their hand on the plate to deliver the shock.

And it was actually like, you know, obviously the more removed you were from the person and the less you could see their suffering, the easier it was for people to just go along with the commands.

Whereas when people were right there with this person and having to administer the shock, they wouldn't go along with it.

But also he would have.

Sometimes he would have someone else there.

So two teachers.

The second teacher would be an experiment with, like, someone who's part of the experiment as well.

And the second teacher would dissent and say, no, I don't think we should be doing this.

This is wrong.

And then at the time, at that time, it would be quite easy for the volunteers to turn around and say, yeah, I agree, this is wrong, and not continue with the experiment.

Or they would try and get them to do it without a scientist figure.

So without an authority figure telling them what to do.

So there were so many different varieties to how he ran this experiment to see, like, whether this kind of institutional sort of authority could get people to do this and what conditions needed to occur to stop them from doing it and which individuals as well would go along with it and which individuals wouldn't.

Just absolutely fascinating read.

Really interesting.

And it really made me think.

I think I read it when I was sort of in my late teens or early twenties.

It just made me think about, you know, stuff that I do in my life, stuff that we all do.

Why are we doing it?

Are we doing it to conform?

Are we doing it because we're told to?

Are we doing it because we actually think it's right or wrong?

Am I ever in a position where I'm asked to do something that I think is wrong?

Why do I do it?

Do I not do it?

Why do I do it?

You know, it just gave me a lot of, like, a lot of questions to ask whenever I'm in those kinds of situations and.

And with the job that I do, sometimes you are in difficult situations or you are in situations where you're kind of in a situation of power and stuff.

So you have to kind of think about these things and think about whether it's wrong or right.

And.

And whether you're just doing something because the guy in the white coat is telling you to do it and it's part.

You're part of this institution or whether it's because this is actually the right thing to do.

So, yeah, it's just given me a lot to think about kind of throughout life.

I mean, it's really interesting, but it's also horrifying, isn't it, to say sort of thing like.

And yeah, it always.

When I saw it, it always reminds me of Josie Ferguson's book, the Silence in Between.

If you've read that, I don't know that it's brilliant, it's a great read.

But it sort of talks about, you know, when you're saying if nobody's there to sort of question, like the complicity and silence and sort of going along on the thing.

So, yeah, absolutely fascinating.

I'm not sure if I could pick it up and read it.

Like, I think.

I mean, nothing actually bad happens to anyone in the book.

Yeah.

Because it's all acted.

Yeah.

But the people who.

Doing it are they who sort of go along and sort of shock quite high.

Do they discover anything about is there a certain type of person that's going to do it or is it all based on sort of factors around them, like anyone could do it, given the right.

I mean, there are.

From what I remember, and I haven't read it for a while, but from what I remember, like, the more kind of you create situations that you.

We can see would be easier to.

To resist.

For example, you know, if the person's there in front of you versus if the person's in the room down the corridor.

It kind of does what you'd expect, but there's like one or two people who go all the way anyway, which is quite interesting.

Yeah, it is.

It is interesting.

Also horrifying.

Like, please don't be the one.

You're doing my experience experiment.

I want the person to say, no, this is wrong if I'm being shocked.

Okay, let's move on to book number three.

So I've got night birds on Nantucket.

Yeah.

So I picked this one because, I mean, I loved the whole series when I was a kid.

I don't know if you ever read any of the Joe Naked book.

No.

Oh, they're great.

I think they were written in like the 60s or 70s and she's taken.

I don't.

I can't remember the details of this and I'm going to get it wrong, but some kind of royal thing where there was one king on the throne and they wanted a different king to be on the throne and she sort of reversed it.

And there's this particular character called Dido.

She's like this young plucky girl from London from like a poor family in South London.

And she is.

The book before this follows a guy called Simon who's a lodger at her family's house.

And she kind of becomes.

She and he kind of team up and they, they're fighting against these plotters who are trying to get the wrong king onto the throne.

But then this, this book, Night Bears on Nantucket follows her and I just loved her when I was a kid.

I thought she was great, like she was just such a great character and she could always.

She always had these kind of funny expressions.

She always had this like sense of humor and she was so practical and she would get herself in all sorts of mad situations and just managed to escape them just by her own kind of wit and cunning, you know.

But she also, like, she wasn't, she.

She wasn't kind of.

She wasn't educated at all.

I don't know, I can't remember whether she could read or write or not.

But she was just, she was just smart and practical and self sufficient and I just really liked her as a child.

A great role model for a child.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So do you think this is a book that sort of made you a reader then?

Is that sort of.

No, I wouldn't say that I was already a reader.

But it's just.

I mean, I was just kind of looking at books that I'd read as a child and trying to find.

Trying to choose one that I would say had.

It had an influence on me.

I mean there were loads.

But this is the one that I've chosen.

It's never been picked before either, so.

Well, it's a great series.

I'll have to look.

I saw it was a cover with like a pink whale or something on the front.

Yeah, that looks really cute.

Okay, so your fourth book then is Bodies.

Yeah, tell us about that one.

So that is a novel about a junior doctor somewhere in England and the.

Their experiences, his experiences.

Obviously that's something I've been through and I just, I loved the book because it was just brutally honest and it said all these unsayable things and I was just like, yeah, I can, I can.

I've been there, you know, at three in the morning.

So it just, I wouldn't say that it shaped my life, but I feel like it kind of validated some of my experiences.

And I, I kind of have to sneak in another book because House of Gods by Samuel Shem was I think the precursor to this novel or the American precursor to this novel was written in the 70s, I think, but about a similar experience in America.

Also good.

But I mean I've chosen Bodies because it's set in the NHS and I think that that's something particularly.

There's a.

There's a uniqueness to that particular experience.

I think I was.

When I saw this, I went to look it up.

My sister in law is an ER doctor, the States.

And I was like, oh, this is her cup of tea.

Totally hard.

Relates.

I have to.

Was it House of God?

Was the sort of Amer?

Yeah, yeah.

I'll have to dig that out for her because like some of her stories of like her junior doctor years and things are.

It's a baptism.

Baptism of fire.

Yeah.

So as a, as somebody who is not a doctor and somebody who has terrible health anxiety anyway, I rely on Dr. Google way too much.

Should I read this or is it going to just terrify?

Don't read it.

Okay, okay, okay.

I'll pass it on to my sister in law.

But don't tell me I managed.

Oh, I forget his name.

That's just gone out my head.

Who's the junior doctor?

This is gonna hurt.

It's Adam.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But some of them are quite sort of humorous stories.

I enjoyed that as well.

I thought that was great.

Yeah.

Probably not the sort of.

Is this a bit darker?

I think this is a bit darker, yeah.

Okay.

Does not sound like one for me.

Okay, Lisa, we'll talk about your final book then, which is the manual.

So I grew up in a church similar to the church that this guy grew up in.

Okay.

When I say I grew up in a church, I mean my family attended this church.

We went to this church and it was.

I'm not someone who has a religion anymore, but I don't.

I'm not.

I don't look back on it with any kind of.

I mean it was a lovely way to grow up, you know, the lovely community.

There were also things that I didn't agree with and this book is just really a beautiful kind of illustration of that and really explores it in a way that I haven't really seen done anywhere else.

I think, you know, you can find sort of memoirs of people growing up in.

In religious environments that weren't kind of affectionate and nurturing and stuff.

And then you.

But you.

Or if someone's going to write about it in a way that is sort of fairer and more positive, then they're usually religious themselves and this guy isn't.

I think his church was different to mine and they got involved like the real.

The point of his book is that they, like members of his church, got involved in this cult with this guy that was running in a cult in Nigeria.

And some of them went over there and joined it and stuff, which is absolutely not related to my experience whatsoever.

But I just enjoyed the way that he wrote about the church that he was in, I think in Winchester when he was growing up, because it reminded me so much of the church I'd grown up with.

And I thought it was just very fair and affectionate and.

And quite illuminating for me as well, sort of looking back.

Okay, that sounds really interesting.

Like, I mean, I don't have a similar experience.

I grew up with my mom, who was Catholic, and I've sort of, you know, we were very into.

Into the Catholic Church.

But as I've grown up, I've been the same.

I sort of, you know, respect whatever you want to believe in, but it's not sort of reflecting what I believe in.

Now I'm just trying to think of any other books.

I mean, the only one I can of think, think of is Tara Westover,.

But that's quite different because, like, I think, you know, the.

The kind of religion that he's describing, it's not.

It does.

It's not the mainstream culture in this country, but I would say, you know, it's got positives and negatives, but I think so does like secular culture as well.

So he.

I think he just does a very fair job of it.

Yeah.

I mean, hers is quite, quite.

She has quite a harsh sort of like.

Yeah, it's not as extreme as that.

It's nothing like as extreme as that, you know.

Yeah.

I mean, she did incredibly well, like with herself afterwards, but.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Oh, that does sound really interesting then.

So.

I know it was hard to do five and you snuck an extra one in.

That's okay.

It's.

I mean, I've had somebody sneak in a whole Alphabet series.

Okay, you're fine.

One.

One is.

One's okay.

If you could only read.

Read one of those again.

You said you already knew maybe which one it would be.

Do you?

I think it would be between Emmanuel and Obedience to Authority.

Okay.

I think Emmanuel, I've only read once and I enjoyed it so much that I would really like to read it again and just see what else I can pull out of it.

Obedience to authority is just an interesting one to come back to.

Oh Lucy, it has been so lovely to chat to to you today.

I've really enjoyed it.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, you too.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you.

That was such an interesting conversation with Lucy.

I hope that you've enjoyed it as much as I did.

Lucy's debut novel, Gloria Don't Speak is out now.

It is a brilliant read, one I would definitely recommend, so do check it out.

As always, all of the books that we've talked about today are linked in the show notes.

They're nice and easy for you to find.

I have a question, quick favour to ask again.

If you are enjoying the show, I'd be so grateful if you could take the time to rate, review, subscribe and most importantly, tell your friends about it.

I'm back on Thursday with another author and I really hope that you'll join me for that episode too.

Thanks for listening and see you next week.