This week Nicholas and Derek talk to Michelle about how her family inspired her to pursue photography, and how she turned that into the career she has today.

This is Film Center.

Your number one show for real entertainment industry news.

No fluff, all facts.

Now, here are your anchors, Derrick Johnson II and Nicholas Killian.

Hey everyone, welcome to Film Center, your number one place for studio news.

I'm Derrick Johnson II.

I'm Nicholas Killian.

And today we have some news.

Who are we doing today, Nicholas?

We have a very special person.

Would you like to introduce yourself?

Hi guys, my name is Michelle Utuk.

Or, you can call me Panda, because all of the children call me Panda.

Yeah, she, when she does, she is you're a commercial photographer.

Yeah.

Meaning that you deal with a whole bunch of people.

What is Panda is like, what, your motif?

Motif, pretty much, when I, Is it a spirit animal, or is it a motif?

Is there a difference?

I don't know.

That's too much brain power for me.

This Asian doesn't Asian.

No, the only reason is because I really like panda and honestly I can see the

like amount of brain power it takes people to try and figure out my gender

and I'm like look at I have the Korean soft boy haircut, but you know what?

Here, I'll save you.

I think it is the haircut.

Oh, yeah.

I've known you for a little background, I've known Michelle for a while now.

And It's been like, what, three, four years now?

Pfff I'm just gonna say yes.

I don't even remember.

Me neither.

When she had, when you had longer hair, it was different.

But To be fair.

You rock.

You rock the short haircut.

You are rocking.

You killed it.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

But anyway, so Michelle how exactly is it that you get into commercial photography?

Actually let's take it back.

Okay.

Because how is it that you ended up in Los Angeles to begin with?

Bro, I was born here.

There we go, oh wow, yeah You are one of the rare LA natives, yeah, so when

you were younger, did you would you always have an interest in photography?

No, so I actually got into photography because I got really tired of

being in the family pictures.

Oh, Yeah, you got tired of being in the family picture I got tired of

being in the family pictures and I was like because bro Asians are weird

They're very serious about those pictures, huh?

I'm the most attractive one in my family, but my parents

always called me the ugly one.

And I was like, damn, okay, I'm done.

I can't confirm.

She she does look better than a lot of other people who I met.

I, I'm not going to say I was, it was there or nothing like that, but my mom

just looks like the average Filipino.

My dad looks like a blazion.

My sister's half white.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

I'm the only one who looks like a normal Filipino So you didn't

want to be in the pictures?

Yeah, pretty much I just was like, all right, I'm tired of this and trying to

figure out how to be like Facebook perfect So then if you're behind taking the

picture, you don't have to worry about it.

Exactly And when you at what age did you get into this?

I Want to say 15 16 it took you that long.

Yeah, so as a kid I really liked being in the pictures, but then I was like I

saw those pictures and I was like, dang.

I don't like these pictures.

I'm not a big fan fedora phase.

Oh, you were wearing a fedora?

As a child?

You had a child fedora phase?

Oh, what?

Yeah.

Because of Phineas and Ferb?

Yeah, because Perry the Platypus has a little fedora.

You're not a platypus, Michelle.

I wanted to be a little spy.

You wanted to be a little I could be a little panda spy, okay?

And then whenever you started doing your photography work at 15 or 16,

did you start working in photography then or did you do something

else when you went to college?

I started taking class on photography probably like my

senior year of high school.

But I started taking the family pictures around 15, 16.

Just so I could be like, oh, this is cool, I want to explore it more.

Awesome.

Drawing takes way too much work.

So I was like I need an art form That's really fun to do and not

the most time consuming Art drawing can take a lot of time, dude.

I've been going it took me three days Oh my gosh.

It took you three days to make a drawing?

Yeah.

What was it of?

My leg.

Your leg?

It took you three days to draw a leg?

It took me three days to draw a leg.

It took me Was it like realistic looking?

Yeah.

Oh, that's why.

I do the realistic stuff, that's why.

Oh, okay.

I did one of me and my ex when we were still together.

That took about a week.

So you can draw?

I can draw.

You just choose not to.

I hate how long it takes.

Because you were impatient.

I am impatient.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so at pictures, although setting up for a photo can take some time.

Yeah, that bit me in the ass real quick.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It takes one second to take the picture, but the amount of time and

preparation it takes to get that picture.

Yeah.

Especially in commercial work, literally getting one image would

take at least an hour of setup.

So really how so we'll hold on before, before that.

What was your first?

Like inclination like, Oh, I want to go down this route of photography

to shoot for like commercials and brands and stuff like that.

I want to say it started during COVID ish.

So no, near the end of COVID.

One of my other exes was like into marketing.

She dumped me and I got really salty about it.

And I was like, you know what?

What if I get into marketing and I'm better than you and I'm better than you.

And I was like, I'll get into commercial work.

I'll probably get better at photography for it anyways, because I was like,

I don't want to go outside now.

I want to interact with people.

Cause I love photography, but I didn't like how extroverted I had to be.

So I was like, okay, the networking of it, the, oh, the pitching and all that stuff.

No, I can do the pitching.

It's just oh, having to coordinate awkward people, how to pose is the

most stressful and annoying thing ever.

Oh, trying to get people to pose correctly.

Yeah.

And I'm like, sometimes they don't get it.

And I'm like, I don't know how to be nice to you and tell

you that you're just an idiot.

And you're looking really awkward right now.

Yeah.

And I'm like, You look great!

I can't lie to you.

Cause now you're messing up my work.

Yeah.

Some of the smiles it's very interesting.

You tell someone to smile for a picture.

Sometimes they always look creepy.

Cringy looking thing.

Ish smiles.

And it's hey, just relax your face.

Like you smile at other people and they're like no.

I don't believe you.

Because of what's going on here, right?

I can feel that because I didn't understand how to smile.

So I was like out of high school.

What do you mean you didn't know how to smile is that you talk about that

perfect picture smile yeah, but I would literally smile like Yeah, you

know that no that kind of yeah, I was like Smiling for a picture cuz I was

just scared of getting the picture.

Yeah, so it's a weird mentality thing Yeah, so you were psyched you

psyched yourself out pretty much.

Oh, so then how do you get people to always it and so You

got into commercial photography.

Like what, so what was the process of getting into it?

Did you contact brands?

Did you contact, what did, how did you do it?

So it started with me even learning like product photography, literally

in a corner of my room, because I had no idea how to do commercial work.

I was just like, look, I just want to make all these pictures look cool.

Cause I'd been seeing a bunch of videos on Instagram and I was like, you know what?

I want to see if I can pull that off too.

I spent about a month ish just like building a portfolio and of

commercial photography in your room.

Yeah.

And some of that stuff is on your Instagram still.

Yeah.

Granted, I don't use that account as much, but I'm still really proud of the work

that I did considering that half of it is like, all right, strings, tape, a hanger.

You know how people have those floating shots and they have all this cool gear?

No, I had hangers taped to a wall and hoped it wouldn't fall.

Really?

And so you went on YouTube, you went on Instagram?

No, I was figuring this I watched one YouTube video, and they were like,

Okay, just try to fill up the frame with the most relevant stuff you can.

And I'm like, Okay, that sounds easy enough.

And he did it by these levels, so it was like, The easiest one is literally

just of the product usually that's like on a plain background whether it be

white Which is surprisingly extremely hard and Then you just add one.

What makes white so hard?

Is it because it's so reflective I guess?

White is hard because there's never a true white so the white that's like on your

website will never match to what the white that you photographed Which is really

frustrating because like regular white in real life doesn't look like the pure white

that you're gonna see on, on, on exactly.

That a computer can make.

Yeah.

So it's just like that little color difference will always like, piss me off.

. But as it got harder, like you would fill up the foreground, you'd

add mid props or even just have it focus on the actual subject.

And then of course you have a more detailed background.

Or just, I don't know whatever I came up with, most of the time I didn't plan too

much when I was just like building it.

I just tried to do a photo every day, but as I got better at it, I want

to say a month or so in was when I had like people reaching out to me.

Hey, do you want to come take pictures for us?

And I was like, Oh, people reached out to you.

Yeah, I never planned for this to go anywhere.

People were reaching out to you.

You didn't reach out to anybody.

Initially, no.

Flex.

That's very impressive.

That guy pissed me off so much.

I was like, he's you should be charging for this.

And I was like, okay.

You don't know how much to charge.

It costs like 300.

300.

When I was doing portrait work.

Yeah.

And then he's that's so expensive for the County that we live in.

And I'm like, okay, then you just don't charge enough for anything.

I don't want to get paid 50 for an hour.

Shoot, dude.

Yeah.

Not 16 50 gets me one tank of gas, a whole bunch of, that's not it, especially

when you're freelancing in our in, the creative industry, it's A lot of people

want to take advantage of your skills.

So oh, I only have 25, but I want you to do 400 worth of work.

Exactly.

Okay, then you can't afford me.

Yeah.

And then the worst part is You would think that your friends would be like, Oh, okay.

Michelle, you charge 300.

And if I have the money, I'll tell you what, since you're

my friend, I'll give you 400.

Because I would rather I want to support.

I want to support you.

And I'm gonna pick somebody anyway to do Whatever it is I'm

doing, I'm gonna choose you.

Yeah.

But, the, it's the opposite.

And it's hey, I got I know you charge 300, I got 50 bucks.

I had a relative of mine who was like, oh, are you gonna,

he needed a commercial shot.

And I was like, okay, yeah, cool, I can help you out with this.

And he didn't expect to pay for it.

I was like, yeah so here's the budget.

And he goes, oh, okay, that's how much it's gonna cost you?

I was like, no, it's how much it's gonna cost you, sir.

And it's I gave him a discounted rate, but I was like, yeah, I

need at least this much to do it.

Like I had to pay the other people to be there for the commercial.

Yeah.

And he was like, nah, I can't do that.

I was like, okay, then when I shoot the commercial, it's oh,

you're not just gonna do it for me?

No.

No.

No.

You know what I'm saying?

No.

Yeah.

So then when, so people are, were reaching out to you.

Was this when you were, that's when you were posting it on

your Instagram or something?

Yeah.

I was pretty consistent when I started Like just building my portfolio.

I at least got three or four out every week.

And it would show like my setup my whole thought process and some of them I was

like, look I don't even know what I'm doing, but I think this looks cool and

I flat out admitted that I was shocked at how like Receptive people were yeah,

they're like honestly, it's not that bad.

Yes, you could have done better, but You're not as shitty as you think you are.

People really connect with honesty, you know saying in like realism, yeah.

I think it would've been different if you're like, yeah, this is the best ever.

Look at this amazing work.

Flexing.

I've only been doing this for a month.

Look how great I am.

So low key.

That's how I felt.

I was like, dude, I figured this out like pretty quick.

I have this shot where I have a photo of my beats.

And I have the headph like, the actual earbuds floating on top of it.

Oh, you're talking about the headphones.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

That's that's honestly one of my favorite pictures, and were they

the overheads or just the earbuds?

They were just the earbuds.

Okay.

Apparently the same person that does that charges like a thousand dollars per shoot.

And I'm like, look, I pulled this off with hangers, okay?

And some fishing line that I found in my dad's garage.

So you like recreate you're recreated at a much lower price pretty much.

I was like, you know what?

I don't know what i'm doing, but I know I don't suck it sounds like you just had

some innate talent to be able to do it because if you could replicate the same

thing somebody else could Relatively.

I mean it's not gonna be picture perfect exactly but Essentially

you did the same thing he did.

That's how we all learn art.

That's what the art system is let's go back to a basic like drawing class.

Oh, let's draw something that Vincent van Gogh did.

That was always like my art assignments when I was like in elementary.

So that was something I focused on a lot.

And I was like, okay, if you can recreate other people's

art, I saw a quote about this.

There's a lot more mastery in recreating someone else's work than it, than

there is in creating your own work.

Because your own work is a compilation of other people's work.

Everyone that you've learned from right?

So I think it takes a lot more skill to understand how a completely different

artist worked How someone else created that thing because when you're making

your own stuff, it's okay You have to explore it like your own thought process

No, it's like you get to determine when it's correct or when it's perfect

comparative to no It has to look exactly like this and that's how you

know that you've done it correctly.

Yeah, right so I was proud of myself in that sense, because I

know there's people that suck.

I don't mean to be mean about it, but I've seen some people's work that were like,

just starting out and I'm like, dang.

Do you think it's because you you had some background in taking pictures

since you, when you were, since you were like a teenager anyway?

Honestly, I didn't know all that much when I was taking pictures, of my family.

I just took the standard of my mom's standard was above the belly.

That's the whole, I was like, I guess I didn't learn any like actual, I didn't

get good in photography until at least my freshman sophomore year of college,

because that's when I started taking like actual classes on it and understanding

the different elements of art.

So you use, you just a couple of different programs that you use

with Oh, like my editing software?

Yeah.

I mostly just use Photoshop.

I knew how to use Lightroom when I was, like, early college, late high school.

But you haven't really needed it, it seems.

I should have.

But I was so accustomed to learning Photoshop that I couldn't I didn't

even bother learning Lightroom.

And sometimes I regret it.

Do you think that the fact that you're able to draw and that the fact that you

have the photography experience that you did, do you think that really set you

up for success in commercial photography and the way that you have the angles and

the way that you have everything else?

I would say it set me up for photography, but I wouldn't say that it set me up for

commercial work because understanding like the branding that goes into

commercial work, understanding.

The business aspect of an art form was something that never really sat with me.

You didn't, I never really understood it.

You didn't think commercials as artwork.

Is that what you're saying?

No, I never understood that it was an art form.

Until you were already doing it.

Yeah.

Until I was doing, I was like, Oh wait, there's so much work that I'd

never understood goes into this.

And I never appreciated the amount of like time and effort that, and

the, different kinds of artists that had to show up for commercials.

And I was like, so I had a new, newfound appreciation for it.

Can you talk about like the different types of artists and the different

types of work that it takes to come out with that commercial work?

Yeah.

Like what separates me from using my phone with the stuff that you do?

My gear is pretty entry level.

Like I shoot on.

Oh my god, I forgot the name of my camera right now.

That's not a great advertisement there, Michelle.

I keep getting it mixed up with the R6, but I know it's not an R6.

So you, so your cameras are not R6.

It's not an R6.

It's a not R6.

Is that right?

So if you want to get the same camera Michelle does going to

Google and look at not R6, it's one of the like first mirrorless

cameras that they ever really made.

It's like their intro to mirrorless cameras.

If you don't know how to use one, what is a mirrorless camera?

So How do I explain this?

It doesn't have a mirror in the camera.

Yeah, so like literally, so like DSLRs have mirrors in the camera, so

it's like when you capture an image, it's on A-D-S-L-R, you're taking a

picture essentially of a picture.

Or of a reflection, but with a mirrorless camera.

You lit, you are getting the.

The flat image that like whatever you're seeing is exactly what you're taking a

picture of Compared to dslr cams and a lot of and there's a and a lot of Movie

cameras to work that way film cameras.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people like shifting towards it Honestly, it's

really convenient mirrorless cameras are also super light and usually

a lot more cost effective Exactly.

Why did it take so long for them to take off and technology?

Technology.

There's actually it sounds really easy.

Oh, just take out the mirror.

It's not that easy.

No, you had like only recently as technology caught up enough for us to

not have that mirror, even though it sounds like it's, I think it really

can't, I think it came out like 2018 is when it started taking off.

So it was not that long ago.

It's been in the industry for a minute, but people were

still leaning towards DSLR.

It's like how people lean towards Apple.

Even though apple doesn't really make any big changes Just because it's familiar.

It's familiar, right?

It was just like we already know how to use this It's gonna take way too

much time Until we realized oh wait.

No, this is actually a lot easier Yeah, and especially the weight thing.

That's a huge Because especially if you're if you're a smaller crew

or you're trying to pack up space for stuff Not having a whole bunch

of weight on your cameras is great.

Yeah Especially like you gotta think about this if you drop

You know a super heavy camera.

It's more likely to break.

You drop your camera.

Oh, yeah, But do we anyways?

Yes all the time.

Oh, yeah You're still for the best.

What was it about commercial photography that you didn't realize

besides the artist that went into it?

What do you mean like in terms of?

So previously, you've basically said that I didn't realize how much

of a delicate art form commercial photography was throughout the

process of figuring that out.

Is there other things you didn't realize?

I would say the best way I can explain it is it's similar to eras of art.

So let's take romanticism, for example.

It's very light and airy.

I believe.

I don't, yeah, I It sounds like romanticism.

Yeah, I would say so.

Yeah.

I get that romanticism was romantic, right.

. Yeah.

But it was also like, 'cause romantic writing is really dark.

Yeah.

That's what makes it romantic . It's the juxtaposition.

I would equate it to that because there's a fine line of

what decides commercial work.

There are certain boundaries.

So following the brand image, what are our brand colors?

So let's say we're photographing, I don't know, Google, their primary

colors are usually green, just the primary colors actually, right?

Just red, yellow, green, and blue.

Correct.

Yeah.

So we all, you always want to make sure like that somehow incorporated either it's

in the background or you're throwing like some relevant colors in the foreground.

It's all about representation.

And I took a class on the business of art and art has always been a business and I

never really thought about it like that.

So if you go back to what's it called?

I believe the Renaissance era, a lot of like the religious works that were done

was actually just, what's the word called?

Sponsored by The upper class families.

Oh, yeah You're talking about a patriarch.

Yes.

No, not a patriot like a patron.

Yes.

Yes So somebody who pays you to create art.

Yeah, and what they would do is Have the family crest implanted in

the art to show oh, this is from let's say the medici family, right?

And that would be like their form of branding focusing on a certain biblical

story You they would pay them to make art, but they wouldn't tell them what to make.

They would say, Hey, we're going to pay you money, make this type of stuff.

And then you just fill it in pretty much.

Unless they were painting like, the chapel or something like that.

But it's, it is the same, basic concept.

Someone's paid them to do that.

Yeah.

I'm saying no one just randomly walked in there.

It's you know what?

Yeah.

I'm about to hit this with some winged anxious.

I'm about to hit this with a wonder of the world.

That's funny.

Like with the Sistine Chapel.

, Michelangelo painted it, yeah.

Yeah.

He didn't wanna do it, I heard that.

Yeah.

Like literally the, I think it was the poper, the priest was

just begging him like, please.

You're the only person we want doing this.

So please.

And he was like, so that's like you, we were just taking photography and someone

he goes, Hey, please say it's right.

You're like, I was like, I don't know what to do.

Or drawing.

If somebody asked you, Hey, if you could really draw this, you'd be

like, I didn't really don't want to.

And you were like, but you're so talented, Michelle.

And you're like, you don't have to bribe me so much money.

And that's probably what they did to Michelangelo.

They were like, bro.

Yeah.

Pretty much.

But, and then, so what type of brands have you worked with in the past and which

ones were the, your favorite to work with?

And I know you're not allowed to say all of them, but do you have any, how

what type of brands, do you work with?

So I started off with my portfolio is focused on product work, but

because I live in the Ventura County area A lot of people were

like, could you also do food work?

And I'm like, I, food work is a lot different.

Yes, I could apply the same concepts, but that'll take time for me to learn.

I don't know how to do that.

So is shooting food is not like shooting a product?

It is and it isn't.

The concepts are still the same.

It's just, it's different.

Having to, it's just a matter of adjusting.

Let's say you're learning how to write letters.

We'll start with print.

Writing cursive is still writing letters, but it's a different concept of letters.

Oh, but you're building on a foundation.

Pretty much.

Oh, okay.

You have to basically deal with the intricacies of dealing with food.

Interesting enough, they don't teach cursive anymore.

Cursive is gone now.

Actually, if you still go to Christian schools.

So the religious schools will very much still teach it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What else teaches it?

But public school, the last year I learned public the last

year I learned public school.

The last year I learned cursive in public school was like third grade.

Yeah, I went to a Christian school, so I grew up writing cursive.

The school I went to wasn't a Christian, but my parents, like I stopped learning

cursive in the second grade and then my parents made sure I doubled down on

cursive for some reason, I think it's just because people need to know how to

sign their name, you know what I'm saying?

But outside of that, there's no, no reason.

And plus nowadays, some things are signed digitally.

So it's you're just typing it and then it fancifies it for you.

God, within the next like 20 or 30 years, people aren't going to know how to write.

Yeah, they're not going to know how to communicate.

That is a possibility.

That's going to scare me.

But anyway, so is there any things that are frustrating for

you in commercial photography?

Do you have any advice for anyone who might want to get into it?

So the biggest thing for me, so I initially went in with a concept

of just filling in the frame.

That's a very loose term.

Just put something in the foreground and put something in the background.

There's actually a lot more structure to photography than I knew about at

least in terms of framing your stuff.

What's it called?

It sounds like you picked it all up very quickly, though.

Yeah, pretty much.

I didn't know any of the terms.

That's why she didn't memorize the terms.

She was able to do it.

She just has that eye, you're just able to do it.

You don't know all the fancy stuff.

You're just like, I can just do it.

Pretty much.

It's basically like when someone's Oh, wow, you use this type

of vector to draw someone in.

And they're like, I have no idea.

Yeah, pretty much.

No idea what a vector is.

Yeah, no, that's just how my Asian brain works.

I, when I was in school the amount of times I got accused of cheating in math

class, aside from the times I actually did cheat in my math class, Like I'd

get called on to solve a problem and I'd just be like, oh the answer is

this, and they're like, okay, show me the work, I don't know how to do that.

Yeah.

I just know the answer is this.

It seems right.

The brain is interesting.

So basically it's like the same thing with photography.

It's Oh, I just know that this is correct because I see it.

I understand.

I know why it's correct.

I just don't know how I got here.

Pretty much.

And it's like you, it's like almost as if, people say Oh, how do you walk?

And it's you just just do it.

You're going to just do it.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Or how do you breathe?

I don't know, you just do it.

As far as the business of photography goes in terms of commercial work

dealing with the clients that you deal with, is there anything that

people wouldn't know about them?

Like dealing with the clients what they want what they don't want stuff like

that the biggest thing is that like most of them don't know what they want.

They want they're like We just want a really pretty picture And I'm like, wow.

Okay.

So what does that?

What does that look like to you?

What it what is your brand and most of them don't even

know like what their brand is.

Yeah So most of the people that I've worked with have been like

small businesses because that's just what surrounds my county, right?

You Like just a lot of people trying to take off and then they're like,

oh, okay, we only need this certain amount of pictures and then they think

they should be using it for everyone.

That's not the case.

Like the more, no one wants to stare at the same thing

for like over and over again.

That's the same reason why Coca Cola has like a whole bunch of film students make

their commercials for them because they want to have new content coming out.

It's the same case for photography.

Like you should always be updating it.

Do you think that's the reason why Coca Cola has changed their logo so many times?

Yeah, I think they're trying their best to evolve with the times but

also remain an American classic.

Yeah, that's why Santa Claus wears red.

Oh, I thought you were gonna say that's why we have black Santa.

No.

I saw a movie about black Santa and that was funny.

Black Santas are so interesting.

My dad has a giant collection of black Santas.

I need an Asian Santa.

He has 300.

Black Santas.

Wait, how did we get on the subject of black Santa?

She said Santa Coca Cola invented the colors of Santa.

I did not know that.

Yes.

I did not know that either.

You didn't know this?

No!

Oh yeah, so way, way back the day, Santa was a real person.

A real boy.

And he died, obviously.

But he's, apparently he only did the gift giving like once or twice.

Whatever.

Anyway, fast forward down to the early 1900's and Coca Cola is alright

cool, we're gonna have some sort of Winter special or some stuff like

that, you know back in the day people using like soda as like medicine

And so we're also using heroin.

What was it medicine though?

Right exactly That's where the term snake oil salesman came from not only

that And the industrial revolution makes so much more sense when you realize how

many people were on cocaine and heroin and just straight up drugs and they

were giving it to children, it's like That's how you got all this done, right?

It's like you So basically one of these people at their marketing agency was

like, oh, you know what You People were drawing Santa Claus, he's just a guy.

He doesn't really have an image, right?

It's if someone's going to draw a president, right?

Okay you know what a president looks like.

He's probably wearing a suit.

It might be blue, it might be, some other color, but usually some darker color.

Flag pin, and then it's a person, but it doesn't really have a specific image.

And so what they were like, oh, you know what?

We're going to associate our brand with.

Santa Claus, right?

Just hop on the Santa Claus train.

To do that, they gave Santa Claus the famous red coat, the belt, all that stuff.

And I forget who it was, but they had a Did they make him fat?

Yeah.

Damn.

Yeah, they made him fat too.

I remember they had a famous painter, Create that image of Santa Claus and

that's the one that you see on the any like really old posters of Santa Claus

Did you see where he's like super jolly and has like the really red cheeks

and stuff like that Some greeting card company people who made that image for

Coca Cola And so then they plastered that just everywhere and it just made

so much sense for Santa Claus to be in that Costume is so recognizable on

top of the fact that Since then, Santa Claus didn't really have a look to it.

Like I said, you don't really know what a present looks like.

You know what it looks like back then that people drew Santa Claus.

It's he was wearing green, blue, whatever.

He looked like just a regular guy.

You have to tell you all this is Santa Claus.

The only thing that was consistent is that he was old.

And he wasn't even fat.

Not in all the iterations.

No, but then Coca Cola was the one that who makes the, who made

Santa Claus as we know it today.

Imagine being Saint Nick and you get immortalized as a fat white guy.

That's how it came up with my name Nicholas Saint Nicholas Well, michelle,

it's been really great talking to you.

Do you have anywhere where someone can follow you?

Yeah, so like my instagram is it's Is there a period I don't even remember.

It's michelle.

Why?

the word it's And then the word why like why Michelle it's why it's Michelle.

Why oh, it's Michelle.

Why?

Oh, okay.

All right, that makes more sense All right, cool.

It's been really great talk to you.

for coming on the show.

Thank you for having me on the show Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Guys, I'm Derek Johnson second.

I'm Nicholas Killian and we're here with Michelle You took and we'll see you later.

See you.

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