With more than 30 years in Ohio public office and charitable and civic involvement, Betty Montgomery believes it’s the responsibility of public sector leaders to listen to and learn from the people you’re working with and the people impacted by your decisions. For leaders, she says, compromise is key, keeping in mind that you need to measure yourself against your own values, play the long game to reach your ultimate mission, and realize that sometimes you have to say no. You’re never going to be able to get 100% of what you want, she says, because you’re not always 100% right. The board chair of the Jo Ann Davidson Leadership Institute, Montgomery advises women to break down barriers by finding their voice; leading in their communities, churches and schools; and then taking that leadership and experience and stepping into the public arena. 

Trevor Brown 0:04

Betty Montgomery 1:55

Thanks, Trevor, I would just add to your introduction that I spent, I was elected to the Ohio Senate, the legislature and served as a state senator for six years before I became Attorney General. So it puts me in the executive and legislative branch.

Trevor Brown 2:14

And I, I'm glad you highlighted that, because I want to I want to draw some distinctions between those two kinds of roles. And so let's, let's actually start right there. What what have been in your mind the primary differences if there are all of these roles I just mentioned, in the one you added you, you were an elected official, but in the three I mentioned, you are in, let's call it an administrative role. And then the others, you're in a representative roll. What were the principal differences of any that you you found in serving as an elected official in those roles?

Betty Montgomery 2:49

Well, frankly, personally, I didn't, in terms of how I handled myself, I handled it and there was no difference. I mean, you representing people, whether you're in the executive branch, or the legislative branch, and I think it's a responsibility of those who served in the public sector to listen and learn and to spend time talking to the people that you're trying to serve. So in that regard, there wasn't much, there was no difference in terms of how I viewed it, and how I handled it, no matter what you're doing whatever position you are, if you're in the public sector, in the public policy arena, or implementing public policy or trying to create public policy, your role is to make certain you listen, choose the best way you can to solve the problem you're trying to solve. But always listen to the people that are impacted by it, you may not agree with them. But you need to understand the impact of your decision making. And everybody has a right to at least have their voice and if you don't agree with them, or the General Assembly doesn't agree with them. So be it. That's democracy. And then oftentimes, that ugly word that people cast about, as a pejorative, you compromise. And, frankly, Shelby Foote, the historian said that we still write compromise is, is the lubricant of democracy. It's, each of us have a right to an opinion. And you know what, we don't all agree. So we'll never get anything done unless we decide what's important. And it means frankly, sometimes you have a five legged camel that you've created rather than a four legged one. But the camel still walks and you might get 50% of what you want this time and then go back and try again. But it requires compromise. And then the only challenge for the public servant is what is compromised compromise as opposed to compromise being compromised. You It's a very hard line. When When do I compromise? Because this is what is necessary to get something done? When is it I cannot compromise because to do so would be being compromised?

Trevor Brown 5:15

Well, so you, first off, thank you. That's the just a great introduction to about 10 things I want to talk about. And I should also say I think of compromise is a very positive word, I agree with the statement that compromise is essential for the functioning of democracy. So let's, let's unpack some of these things a little bit. So just just take us back. So you've been in multiple roles, where you earned that job through a process where some people were really, really excited about you being in that job. They voted for you. And they gave time and resources and energy. And then you had another group of people that didn't want you to be in the job. They wanted someone else to be in that job. And they worked hard to get that other person elected. How do you just just as a, as a leader, as a manager, as a person in that role? How do you walk that line of like, hey, a lot of people liked me in this role, and some people didn't even want me to sit in a chair.

Betty Montgomery 6:12

Well, you know, I started out, Trevor, when I ran for county prosecutor, though there were no women prosecutors in the state, there are 88 County prosecutors. And there were none that other than I was running. And I remember sitting down because I ended up having a primary, which was no surprise. And I was I didn't take that personally, I understood why people were worried whether or not I would be quote unquote, tough enough, or whether I had the skill set. That's what, that's what elections are about. And I remember sitting down with within the primary, because that's when you're talking to your own family, your your party family, and sitting down and saying to the folks, I understand you don't necessarily, you're not going to support me. And there are a lot of reasons why people don't support you. A, they may not like you, B they may not like your policies, see, it's not got anything to do with you. They have relationships with your opponent, family relationships, business relationships, political relationships. And so you have to understand that going in and not and I guess being a trial attorney before you know you under stand, what to take personally, and I used to sit down, I always said that and said, Look, I know that you're not in my camp right now. All I would ask is if I do become the nominee, I would appreciate it if I could have your support. And please understand if I can't have your support, and I'm elected, and I say this all the time. If even if I don't have your support, and I am elected, I want you to know that my phone, my door is open. I'm here to serve you and I, I hope through not my words, but my actions that I will earn your trust. My opponents are not my enemies, they are my opponents. And in a public sector, you are always going to have opponents you but you are always going to be required to serve everyone whether they are with you or not with you.

Trevor Brown 8:12

What about the people that that you have to represent too many of whom you've never met and you never will. But yet you're making decisions in these roles, but have tremendous implications for for the lives of Ohioans. Do you think at all about, you know who voted for whom? Or is that really like that's now as you said, like that was the race. Now I'm in the role and my job is not so much to worry about the race is to worry about what am I tasks and asked to do in this role?

Betty Montgomery 8:43

Well, I I know this sounds odd in particularly at this time in the political world that we're facing right now. But I was blessed, when I ran outside of the county as outside county prosecutor and now I'm moving into representing far more people I don't know because there are other counties involved with more my district is larger, and they're not people I've served for years. My state senate district was a 50-50 district. I had a conservative arch conservatives and I had center city, Toledo. Not quite centered city, but I had portions of Toledo urban area. And because my district was 50-50, I just didn't, I just I just said you know, I'm gonna do the best job I can do. I'm going to talk to people, I'm going to try to do the best job. And if that doesn't win the day, it doesn't win the day. Now I realized that sounds like Pollyanna, but it has served me well. I just try to be honest. And try to not worry about the politics of what my vote is going to be because I'm going to have a body and everybody's going to do I mean, heaven forbid for people, people who are married people who have loved ones, they don't agree with them 100%, but they still have a relationship. And that's what I was trying to do develop a relationship, they may disagree me on one thing, but they would understand who I am. And then I'm trying to do the best I could do.

So I'm going to ask you now an unfair question, but I feel okay asking it because you posted earlier, which is how to make that decision between when to compromise and when to stick with a particular position or value, you frame that as one of the real challenges in this kind of job. So how did you how did you navigate those challenging circumstances, where, how did you decide when to compromise? And when to stick with a differential position from from your, you know, partners or combatants or however you thought of it? Yeah.

Well, you know, particularly in the public policy arena, I mean, first of all, it's pretty clear if you come into your and I say this, oftentimes, when I'm doing these kinds of commentaries are talking because in the leadership institute that I chair, look, you come into this role, you have, I hope, a loads, you have a set of values, and where the public sector work, where any of us go for a fall in the elected world, it becomes very apparent because you're in the public sector, and people see you in the newspapers report on your televisions report on you. But if you have a set of values about what's right and wrong, what's honest and not what's fair and what's not. And you constantly measure yourself against that it becomes it's easy to call, it's easy to call the foul balls like oh, yeah, that is not fair. That is That is not fair. That is not, I cannot go there. Or this policy. I know I lived this policy when I did criminal, when I was doing criminal legislation, or alcohol related legislation or things like that I had lived that world, I knew whether people agreed with me or not, I guess there were some places I would not be able to go.

So that helps us understand the areas where you chose not to compromise. Yeah, it pulls you towards compromise.

Well, it's just as practicality in many ways. When you're in the legislature, you're counting votes. And you're also playing the long game, if you know, you're not going to get what you need, what you believe needs to be done. Sometimes what happens is you can compromise to get you maybe 60%, of where you want to go. And at the same time, deal with those who have have differing opinions, adding their compromising in areas, they want you to compromise, so that when you go for the other 40%, you hopefully have some of those people on your side to get back. Because if it's really important, you're not going to give up, you're going to go back, try it another way. And hopefully you'll you'll have demonstrated an openness to others' ideas, and to be able to get to your ultimate mission. And understand that you're never going to get 100% of what you want, because you're not always 100% right. I looked at the living will legislation. I think I did 19 Full redrafts of that bill. Because at the time we, for 25 years, they tried to get living will legislation. They couldn't get it done. And I introduced it. And I spent months talking to people who were opposed because they were afraid that we were going to pull the plug on old people with the there was all the fears of sure the parade of imaginary horribles that you got in these kinds of cases, because it's it was sort of plowing new ground and it was plowing new ground. So I did 19 Full redrafts on that I listened to everybody's everybody. They had complaints if they wanted to add an amendment, I'd say to them, Look, if it was a good amendment, I don't care at the end of the day, if you're not going to vote for the bill, I'm still going to put the amendment in because it makes the bill better. Unlike a lot of folks, I believe you know, you make the bill better you listen to him and treat him with fairness and not that you're a pushover because there are times when you just have to say no. It's just that you want to make the times when you have to say hell no few and far between.

So how did this you've shared just now thank you insights into your, your sort of legislative approach to compromise and then later use served as attorney general and auditor did, were there lessons that you drew from how you approached compromise in that legislative role that you then directly applied and those other executive roles?

Yes, by the way, you learn to compromise as a county prosecutor, because sometimes the evidence doesn't get you where you need to go. So you have to take a lesser included offense, you have to take a plea bargain, or, or public policy demands that you go one place as opposed to another or, for example, not re victimizing the victim, if it's a child, means that while you think this defendant deserves to be in prison for 20 years, if you can get them in prison for 10 years, and you don't have to put the child victim on and re traumatize the child victim, better to have 10 years in your hand, without any appeals, then whatever. So as as it as you moved into the statewide offices all the time, you're you're dealing with, first of all, you're always dealing with public policy, either enforcing it or suggesting new public policy. And then you're also dealing with litigation. And when you're in the middle of litigation, you're always having to make decisions on do we settle this case for X amount of dollars and Y a number Y changes in behavior? Or do we, we go for the whole ball of wax and and roll our dice. So now that I've mixed every kind of metaphor you could think of? So you're always, you're always sort of weighing what is best to get you as close to your mission as possible.

So let's pivot now. And you talked, you've made a, I mentioned the beginning, and you just made mentioned a moment ago about the Joanne Davidson Leadership Institute. So tell us a little bit about the institute. Its its mission, its programs. And fundamentally, why did speaker Davidson spend time and energy to create this particular entity?

Joanne is a rare individual she is quite properly put on a pedestal by both by people who know her and always served with her. And she had over the course of number of years understand she was when I when I was elected county prosecutor. And I looked around for role models I couldn't find and I was a Republican. And by the way, I want to make sure you understand and your listeners understand I'm a governing Republican, I believe in treating people properly. civilly. And I don't think it's a bad thing to walk across the aisle and do things in a bipartisan manner. So that being said, when I looked around, and the only only elected woman I could talk I could even look to was Joanne Davidson, who was then on city council and Dorothy Teater, who at that point, I think, I don't know if she was on school board or she was on city council, or she might have been I don't know, she was county commissioner, she I know that at some point she was county commissioner. So Joanne, over the years that she was in politics early on, was always the person who was the worker bee. And then she would put together groups of women to try to help them get out of the role of Mary and Martha, and get into the role of actually being rather than being just carrying the basket, being the one who actually dictated where you were going with that basket. And she so she created it because she wanted women to realize that they have a role to play and that they have capacities, and that they too often allow themselves, put themselves in a box or allow others to put them in boxes. And she desperately felt and desperately feels that there are more women, more women have to be in the public arena to to advantage the men with information and experience that they may or may not have, or certainly haven't experienced themselves. So she started it. We've had 23 classes where almost almost 500 graduates go by by this spring, it'll be 475 or something like that. And our goal is to show them paths that they can take. We are at the end of the roll at the end of the day. What we want them to do is find their voice and be a leader whether it's in your community, whether it's in your church, whether it's in your schools, and not be afraid to also take the information, take that leadership and that experience and step into the public arena, you know, run for run for office locally or district wide or statewide. And that's our mission.

Well, you all do virtuous work I've worked with had the pleasure of working with Speaker Davidson and know everything you say about her. I don't know her nearly as well as you do. And it's very apparent she is a special person, as are you, as we pull this, this conversation towards its towards its end. What about once you're in the role? So you've you've navigated the challenges of the election? You were the you were twice the first, as Attorney General and as auditor? What What were some of the challenges you faced as, as both a woman and the first woman in that role in those roles? And how did you overcome those?

You know, I think, Trevor, by that point it was, it was an advantage to have been a trial attorney and then attorney prosecutor because at that point, when you're in the courtroom, the facts have to speak for themselves. And your job is to put the facts together and to persuade. And so you learn through trial and error. And I certainly can't tell you that I didn't make as many errors as I've made positive advancements, you learn how to deal with controversy, hopefully, in a civil way. I can't tell you I always did it that way either myself, particularly in in heated trials, but but I generally learned that so by the time I was a state, Attorney General, I wasn't I was feeling I just could be who I was, and take it or leave it. I'm just going to be who I am. And occasionally you get the, you know, you get some some condescending, ignorant Luddite and then you'd have to deal with them. But But generally speaking, I, I was treated. I was treated well, I think I tried to approach people civilly. And they, I was treated well, I always figured that I always had, I guess my mantra was from the beginning is, I'm going to be over prepared, I'm going in unprepared, over prepared, I'm not going to be in a situation where I'm gonna be underprepared. Or I'm so that if you have a grasp of the facts, statistics, the law you've done your homework, so often, that just speaks so much more loudly. And you win. You win the day that way.

I just not to I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way. But I also think I heard towards the beginning that it's okay to make some mistakes and stumble. I think thinking back to what you were saying about as women are contemplating running for office, it's almost as if they feel like they have to have everything right before they want that before they run. I could also imagine that being a mindset and like, oh, I have to get everything right in this job. But you can't you're gonna make some mistakes and that's okay.

Yeah, you know, I I have to be honest, there are many times when I still beat myself on what did it why did I do that? Why did I make that decision? Or why? Why did I handle it this way? I like and that's not a good thing. You know, you you can't keep living your life in the rearview mirror. You have to say, alright, I made a mistake. What did I learn from it? Try not to make that mistake. Again. You'll make another one but don't make that one. That try to forgive yourself, because you're not perfect. But you're right. I think we tend to think it has to be it has to be the picture has to be complete painted the paint dry and in fact what it is is always a painting in progress. As always. There's always something you can learn.