"Vivian Chang's Bitcoin Journey: A Quest for the Human Side"

Introduction:

Vivian Chang's journey into the world of Bitcoin, from her roots in Beijing to her current home in Canada. Join us as we follow Vivian's path through key insights and moments in her Bitcoin adventure.

1. Early Beginnings in China:

• Born and raised in Beijing, Vivian witnessed the transition from cash to digital payments like WeChat and Alipay.

2. The Debt Dilemma:

• Digital payments brought challenges, notably easy access to loans and many young individuals found themselves trapped in debt, highlighting the complexities of the digital financial landscape.

3. Embracing Bitcoin:

• In 2021, Vivian delved into Bitcoin despite initial technical hurdles and realized that Bitcoin's true power lay in its human side, offering hope and autonomy.

4. Bitcoin as a Beacon of Hope:

• Vivian noticed that Bitcoin brought hope, especially to those in emerging markets plagued by high inflation.
• It offered individuals the chance to lead more meaningful lives and act on their beliefs.

5. Bridging the Gender Gap:

• Recognizing the gender imbalance in the Bitcoin community, Vivian aims to become a great moderator.
• Her goal is to ask insightful questions and make the community more inclusive for all.

Contact Vivian:

@btcviv

https://www.youtube.com/@LifewithBitcoin

https://www.wavlake.com

wyb.so

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Visit https://www.meetup.com/womensbitcoinreadingclubwithorangehatter

Please email questions/comments to tali@orangehatter.com

HODL UP is available at www.freemarketkids.com.

Remember: Knowledge is empowerment! 🍊🎩

Mentioned in this episode:

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Hi, everyone.

2

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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Today you're listening to a

conversation I had with Vivian.

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thank you, Vivian, for coming on the show.

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I'm so excited to dive right in

because I think you have a really

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interesting story to share.

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Can you start by giving

us a little intro on your

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Vivian: background?

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Yeah, for sure.

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So my name is Vivian Chang, and

I was born and raised in Beijing.

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And then later on spent my

entire adulthood abroad in

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North America and Europe.

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So right now I'm in West Coast, Canada.

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I'm relatively new in Bitcoin.

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Actually, I'm only a class 2021, but

have have the privilege to really delve

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into the space in the past few years.

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So right now I work In marketing and PR

for Bitcoin companies and I'm, I'm running

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my own podcast called Life with Bitcoin

focus on the human side of Bitcoin.

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Tell

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Tali: Us more about Life with Bitcoin.

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Vivian: Yeah.

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So I was working with many

Bitcoin companies and because

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I'm in marketing and PR.

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So I'm usually the one who was like

reaching out to different conferences

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and podcasts to try to place my

clients onto the show as speakers.

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And what I realized is that there's

so many great Bitcoin content out

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there, but a lot of them are very

technical and they talk about what's

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been happening today in our society.

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And those are very timely and

relevant and important content.

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What I realized is that not everybody is

technical, not everybody likes numbers.

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And let's face it.

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We live in a quite chaotic

and can be depressing worlds.

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And I find these content a little bit.

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stressful sometimes personally, and they

are like, and should anxiety inducing.

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So I actually feel like, Oh my God,

like what I'm going to do in this

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world after watching these content.

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And I, when I first got into the

space the biggest hurdle for me to get

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Bitcoin was actually the technical side.

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I'm not a technical person at all.

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I didn't grow up liking numbers

and I wasn't good with numbers.

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So for the longest of time, I

didn't take the time to learn

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it because I thought it was.

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Too technical for me because I'm not

from a computer science background where

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I'm not a cryptographer and it is just

too complicated for me to even bother

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to try it until I'm in the space and I

realized this is not the case and it was

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actually the human side of Bitcoin that

get me hooked provides how it provides

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freedom, how it provides options.

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For people, not only in

emerging markets, but also for

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basically everyone in the world.

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And this is when I realized, oh,

we're there's, there's a gap in

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this space that we, we should focus

more on the human side of Bitcoin.

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Cause if you think about it, it

is the Bitcoiners, the individual

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people, the combination of individual

people are driving this force

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is all of us building, hodling.

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Spreading the word and bringing

new people onto the space that the

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wall ultimately make the difference.

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So what I really wanted to do is to

focus on individual transformations,

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focus on individual Bitcoiners

journeys and change and transformations

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through the lives of Bitcoin.

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And we're also very early to the

point that we don't necessarily see

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a lot of Bitcoiners in real life.

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So I thought it's a great opportunity

for us to get to know Bitcoiners

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individually and to learn from Bitcoiners.

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Tali: Yeah, our a mission is so aligned.

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Very, very exciting to be talking

with you, especially as women.

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I think we feel very isolated in even

within the small space of the Bitcoiners.

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And so connecting with

other women is so important.

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So I just want to applaud you.

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I think you're doing amazing work

and, you know, keep going, keep going.

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This is very exciting.

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Do you mind if we dive just a

little bit into your background?

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Just, you know, setting a stage for people

to understand where you're coming from.

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You're originally from Beijing.

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Can you tell us a little bit more

from the money side of things,

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what life was like growing up,

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Vivian: right,

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growing up.

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I guess I was a very

normal kid growing up.

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And I belong to the one child generation.

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So I'm the only child in my family.

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It's, I guess it's It's good in a way

because they have all the resources

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and love and cared only for me

because I'm the only child, right?

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I think growing up, I've, what

I've witnessed about money is the,

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the transition from cash economy

to a digital currency economy.

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I remember when I was growing

up when I was a kid, then

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people were using cash all over.

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I don't think China has a particular.

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Phase of credit card, even so the

transition between cash to mobile

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payment happened almost instantly.

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Or within a very short period of time,

And most people don't have a credit card.

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They literally just transitioned from

cash to paying with WeChat Alipay those

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mobile payment giants that's out there.

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And even just a couple of years back

when I went back, there are vendors.

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They don't take cash anymore.

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If you want to buy something with

cash, they would actually say

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that, Oh, we don't take cash.

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You pay with your WeChat.

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And it's weird because.

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Cash is fiat and they

don't even take fiat.

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So the mobile payment side of things

already got so sophisticated that

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you can't go out without your phone.

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You need to tap your, like traffic card,

the, the transportation card when you're

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getting on a subway, getting on a bus, and

you need to literally pay for everything

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with your phone on WeChat or Alipay for

caps some places still take cash, but

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I've experienced in the past is that

they don't take cash anymore, and if you

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have like a 100 yuan bill, And sometimes

they simply don't have the change and

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they wouldn't even let go of the business

cause you just cannot deal with money.

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So it was definitely very

interesting growing up witnessing.

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That change and versus in Western world,

like in Canada credit card is very normal.

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Some people have multiple but in

China, I don't see many people even

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have the need to get a credit card.

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Tali: I did not realize that.

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That's, that's a really interesting fact.

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I feel like using a credit card changes

our perception of what money actually is.

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So when we spend money, if you have

a lot of cash and you're handing

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it out as you're spending it,

you feel the pain of it leaving.

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But when you're swiping the credit card,

you don't necessarily feel the pain.

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So if in your culture, you completely

skipped that credit card phase, what

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kind of psychological change toward money

did you notice or not notice between

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using cash that they can feel in their

hands and just swiping with a phone.

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Vivian: Right.

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The process will be the same, like the

trend, the psychological transition

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will be the same because now you're

removing the face of actually giving

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out the money and it's all very digital.

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So the, the pain of spending

is obviously removed.

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And with credit card, obviously

you can kind of have a limit.

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You have a credit limit and you can.

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Spend more money before you even have it.

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And even though trying to kind of

skip that phase of having credit card,

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there are many like businesses that are

dedicated to small loans and they make

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it so user friendly that you can just.

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Borrow money at a rate very, very

fast without much credit available.

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So this is another problem that the

young generation of China is facing

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is that they are kind of getting

sucked into these little loans.

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And then before they realized.

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They're like, Oh my God, I'm, I owe

2, 000, which is a lot for let's

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say a 20 year old who's, , still

receiving money from their parents.

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But want that extra upgrade

for lifestyles and they get

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hooked into these small loans.

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And then when I realized it's like, Oh

my God, I can't, I can't deal with this.

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And the interest pile up.

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So the pain of spending money is

definitely reduced by going digital.

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And even though the credit

card phase is skipped, people

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still are struggling with debt.

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Tali: That's interesting.

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So it's really kind of

like a credit card, but.

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Not called a credit card because they

are still dealing with credit, right?

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Yeah.

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So, okay, so you went into

Bitcoin through your job.

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You were initially intimidated

because of the technical side.

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How did you overcome that and become

so convinced that you are now running

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your own podcast about Bitcoin?

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Right.

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Vivian: So I'm among the lucky group

because I see so many people that are

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Trying to work for Bitcoin, trying to

switch from a fiat job to a Bitcoin job.

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And I did it backwards.

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So I was freelancing at the time and I got

a part time gig servicing Bitcoin company.

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Without any knowledge or experience,

but I'm, I'm someone who's always

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on the lookout of new things.

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I like to surprise myself.

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So I pick up the job and for

a while I didn't need to get

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into too much details of it.

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And I struggle a lot.

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Like I remember walking on the

street, listening to this podcast,

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talking about blockchain one on one.

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And I was just so overwhelmed and, and

bored, to be honest, and I, I just, I feel

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like I, I need to learn about this thing

that I'm not particularly interested in.

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And that lasted for a few months.

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And I think it's really started to shift

after I understand, I understand the

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technology enough to the point that I know

that, oh, you can use it for remittances,

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you can use it as a store value to fight

against inflation and that's during COVID.

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I'm the only child in my, in my household

and growing up, I feel this massive guilt.

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Because I feel very fortunate to have a

family full of love and care and support.

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I'm financially provided for.

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I have good resources and

opportunities around me versus,

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you know, kids in Africa, kids

in many underdeveloped markets.

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They're starving.

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There's no electricity or water.

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And these things bother me.

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So I...

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Avoided news for years, for

years and years and years.

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Like growing up, I

didn't really watch news.

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I tried to disassociate myself

from it just to avoid the massive

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guilt that I feel as a survivor

or as a, as a lucky person.

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Until I realized, Oh, like what

Bitcoin is and what impact it has

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for these markets, these places.

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And I got hooked by how much option it

gave to people, how much autonomy it gives

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people to actually pursue what's important

in life, like love, meaningful connection,

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build a legacy, self esteem, confidence.

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Like I can go on all day, but these

are the things that Bitcoin actually

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eventually allow you to pursue.

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Versus before you're just really

struggling to put a roof on

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your head, to really provide.

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materially for your family and loved ones.

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And there's very little energy and

resources left to pursue and really

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go after what it's like to be a human.

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And by working in the space that I'm

lucky enough to start to make an impact,

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and that's highly fulfilling and gave me

a sense of purpose Everybody complains

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about not enough women in Bitcoin and

I feel that myself, but they do exist.

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I've seen so many great women in

a space that I've connected with.

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We are out here.

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It's just, we're kind of outnumbered right

now, but it's not going to be forever.

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And this is partially because the content

out there are so technical and political

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or politically driven or where they talk

a lot about the macro side of Bitcoin.

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And it's all good and well,

but for women, we approach the

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world in a different landscape.

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Like, we are just completely

different from, from men, and we

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approach world in our own philosophy

in a more emotional and fluid way

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and we focus on the little things.

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while having a, having

a low time preference.

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So these things are not as

well represented in the space.

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So, I saw the gap.

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I feel like this is something

that I can contribute to.

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And for the longest of time,

I've been trying to find an angle

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for myself to be in this space.

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How can I contribute even further?

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And the thing is, I'm not necessarily

a speaker because I'm not particularly

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knowledgeable in many of the

aspects that Bitcoiners talk about.

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However what I've also realized is that

there are a lot of great speakers in the,

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in the space, but they're not enough.

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Great moderators.

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And I want to be that person.

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I want to be that person.

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I want to be able to ask good questions.

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I want to be able to evoke

insightful thinking to dig into the

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personal stories of Bitcoin to the

point that people feel relatable.

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People feel encouraged in their day to day

life to keep huddling, to keep fighting.

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To connect with underrated Bitcoiners

in the space and to share their

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personal stories, either they work

in the space or not and share with

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everybody that you're not alone.

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We're in this together and there are so

many Bitcoiners out there living their

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lives, trying to be their best self and.

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To gain strength from it and myself

as well, like I've gained so much

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good strength and energy from the

people I've, I've been connected

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with in the past few months.

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And I'm really grateful

for the opportunity.

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Tali: I think it's so true that

men and women do think differently

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and they do approach Bitcoin

from such a different lens.

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And like you said, there are

Bitcoiner women out there.

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They're less vocal.

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Maybe they're even invisible because

they value their privacy above all.

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But they are out there and

we are going to reach them.

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We're going to unite them.

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I'm going to share our strength,

our stories, which is why you

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and I are talking together today.

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Can you think of an example of someone

that you have encountered that

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their outlook in life has transformed

because of their contact with Bitcoin.

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Vivian: Oh, yeah, of course.

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So I work with a lot of emerging markets,

and that includes people in Latin America,

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Africa, Southeast Asia, and all over

the world, like Middle East countries.

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General consensus is that sometimes they

are, they were not In the space per se.

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And then before Bitcoin, it was very much

of a, I don't know if I have an option.

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So I have to, I have to play along

because I have no other option.

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But then after Bitcoin what I realized

is their whole outlook on life would

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change because now they have, they have

the opportunity to opt out, to preserve

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their, their wealth, especially in

countries with very high inflation.

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They were able to really preserve their

wealth, and to have the luxury to think on

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a low time preference, because if you're

in countries like Venezuela, Argentina was

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hyper hyper inflation, even if you want

to adapt a low time preference lifestyle

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is not possible, because you have to

provide and you have to get the most

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of what you what what's in your pocket.

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So it's you can have a low time

preference mindset, but it's just

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simply impossible to implement.

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But Bitcoin actually enables people

to to live that life, to really

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start to act upon their beliefs.

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And that's huge because it's the

alignment of action and beliefs that

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will create the most productivity.

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Otherwise, you're going to be

constantly frustrated and hopeless.

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What I encounter the most from

people in these markets are one word.

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It's hope is that

Bitcoin brings them hope.

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Otherwise.

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It's just coping.

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Otherwise it's just reacting

to their current circumstances

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without a long term perspective.

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They're just getting by by the day.

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And it's, it's frustrating.

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But Bitcoin actually offers them

hope and a positive outlook for their

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own life and their family's lives.

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And to have hope in anyone's

life, it's a huge thing.

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Tali: Yeah, for sure.

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Just to clarify for the listeners

out there who are not familiar with

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that concept of time preference, low

versus high, would you mind going

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into a little bit of detail about

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Vivian: that?

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Yes.

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When we identify ourselves as Bitcoiners,

we're not just investing in Bitcoin

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we hold a collection of values and

beliefs that make us Bitcoiners

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and one of them, one of the most

important ones is low time preference.

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So low time preference is kind

of like delayed gratification.

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It means that you're willing to

sacrifice today in order to get.

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To gain more in the future,

and when you have a high time

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preference, it means you want to...

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Maximize the satisfaction today versus

in a low time preference standard.

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You're constantly

thinking about the future.

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You are not in a rush to

see results right away.

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And you're willing to wait

and be patient and work.

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To secure more prosperity in the future.

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And women naturally have that because when

they start a family, have kids like kids,

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don't just grow like overnight, right?

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It takes decades and decades of care

and love and support for a kid to

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really mature and have their own life.

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And women naturally have that low

time preference when they become moms.

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And I've talked to many people.

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And they've told me that women moms

actually get Bitcoin way faster than

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the dads because they're open minded.

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They're constantly thinking about the

future, what's the best for their family

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and children to the point that they

already have a low time preference to

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adopt themselves into the Bitcoin mindset.

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They just don't know it yet.

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,

Tali: it's really interesting you said that because I have

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observed the opposite, actually.

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So my husband and I, we went to two

homeschooling conferences last year,

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and the total attendees of those two

events combined were about 25, 000.

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So pretty massive number of people.

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And , what we found was almost every

single family that came by, the dad

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was the person who was in charge of

finances and when I tried to talk to

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the moms about Bitcoin, she would say,

well, my husband handles the finances.

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And then, and then like, that's it,

that, that ended the conversation.

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And I have found that to be true in

a lot of places that we have visited.

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There seems to be this sort of

delegation a natural delegation

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because When you're running a household

and you've got kids running around,

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you've got to divide and conquer.

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Everybody can't do everything.

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And so you have the men, working

and handling their finances, the

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wife or the woman would, do the

childcare and mostly, mostly, not all

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the time, there's a generalization,

but that's what I have found.

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And that's one of the reasons

why I'm personally working

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hard to reach moms out there.

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Because like you said, they are already.

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Looking at the world in the same way,

and yet right now, it's a delegated task.

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Understanding money,

understanding investment.

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It's a delegated task, but they have

direct influence over their kids

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through just the amount of time that

they have with their kids being , the

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majority caretaker, mostly, mostly.

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And so that's an interesting

observation that you have made.

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Yeah, tell us more, like

give us some examples.

337

Are you able to describe some people that

you have come across and maybe you and

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I can put our heads together and see how

we can communicate better to one audience

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Vivian: or another.

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Yeah.

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So I learned about this

through one of my guests.

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So I talked to Billy Junjo

and he's a content creator

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for Bitcoin in South Korea.

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And he creates Bitcoin content on

YouTube and, and a Bitcoin newsletter.

345

And what he shared is that that the moms

in the household are more open minded.

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And because they, they are the primary

caregivers in the, in the household,

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that they're naturally thinking about.

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the future of the kids more

the future of the family more.

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And they have and women are,

women generally have less ego.

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They don't have as much ego

as, as man to always be right.

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They don't have the

need to always be right.

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And when versus, and that's what he

observed too, is that the man

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usually have this mindset of,

of I already know everything.

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And I don't want to admit that I

have something that I don't know.

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So there's the ego parts that men have

to get across when they come into the

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space of Bitcoin, because it's a very

complex subject and it takes a lot

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of, you need to properly go down the

rabbit hole and make time and effort

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to learn about this before you can

fully understand, and a lot of people.

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May not be able to get past the ego

stage to admit that everything they've

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told what they're used to around them

is a lie and that takes courage and that

361

takes The ability to unlearn yourself

and not everybody can do that quickly.

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Tali: That's really interesting.

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I wonder if that has some

cultural aspect to that.

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So Scott and I, when we travel, we

were experiencing that most Bitcoin

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meetups are, I would say 90 percent men.

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It's very rare for us to come

across a meetup that has at

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least 40 to 50 percent women.

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Very, very unusual.

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And mostly what we have encountered is.

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The men would come to the

meetup and the wife would stay

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at home and watch the kids.

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Yeah, that's what I've seen too.

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Yeah.

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So we're trying to have more family

events Scott and I have a meetup.

375

If we can get the whole family involved,

then it is no longer a man or woman thing.

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It's just a family thing.

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Vivian: That's such a good idea

because if you think about all these

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Bitcoin conferences if any of them

are listening is that if you have a

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dedicated babysitting area where you

get all of the kids together and do like

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kids workshops for Bitcoin, and we have

seen a common creators for children's

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book in the space and maybe we can get

them together to host something online.

382

to have the kids create a piece of art to

go through the book together and have some

383

opportunities for them to get exposed to

Bitcoin in a engaging and informative way

384

to the level that they can understand and

really grasp the idea in a very young age.

385

The potential is huge because

you're spending the least amount

386

of effort and making the most

amount of impact in the next

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20

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Tali: years, right?

389

that's what I observed when we went

to the homeschooling conferences is

390

you have the main event, the main hall

where all the vendors are, and then

391

they have the speakers and everything,

but they have a dedicated children's

392

room and it's divided into, I think,

two or three groups based on age.

393

And while the parents are roaming around,

the exhibit hall, the children are

394

building friendships and doing activities

and they look forward to the conference

395

with their parents and it's not a alright

mom or dad They're going and we're gonna

396

be stuck with a babysitter kind of thing

So if we can make our Bitcoin conferences

397

family friendly and have that right

the parents go into exhibit hall they

398

go to the you know, the workshops and

then The children, like you said, they

399

have games and authors reading stories

and crafts and things, just exposing

400

them so that it's a conference that

everybody looks forward to every year.

401

That would be amazing.

402

Yeah, that would be.

403

Let's talk about your parents.

404

Are they orange pilled?

405

Are they resistant?

406

What's going on with

the older generation?

407

Right.

408

Vivian: They're not orange pilled.

409

I would put it that way.

410

They know that I work in Bitcoin

and . They think I'm living a very

411

mysterious lifestyle because they

cannot fully grasp what I'm doing.

412

They know I'm hosting a talk

show and I've recorded episodes

413

at home when they're around.

414

I think at this point in life,

cause I've been abroad, I've been

415

on my own since I'm 18 years old.

416

So they've kind of have to, by now

they've, they've have enough, a

417

lot of respect and support of how

far I've already made for myself.

418

And they're very proud of

that and I appreciate that.

419

And to the point that they respect and

support how I choose to live my life.

420

even though they don't fully understand

what I'm doing or see some risk.

421

And like many people out there, they're,

they have a slightly skeptical view.

422

They don't know how

stable this industry is.

423

They don't know.

424

If it's safe both legally and in a lot

of other aspects they don't have a

425

complete understanding of what Bitcoin is.

426

And I try, I don't really actively

try to orange pill them because

427

it's, more than just Bitcoin.

428

It's not just Bitcoin.

429

If I need, if I want them to fully

understand Bitcoin, it's hours

430

and hours and topics after topics

of their own belief systems.

431

And I don't want to just poke the,

the beehive and get all bruised by

432

and they wouldn't like it either.

433

And they've gone through

lives long enough to.

434

To believe in what they believe in, and

I'm not going to necessarily meddle with

435

that, and ruin our own relationships I

feel like for me, I'd rather be a daughter

436

to them, and I love them, I care for them,

and I support their decisions in life and

437

I want the freedom to live my own life I

try to keep our relationship very loving

438

and caring and try not to get, like, I'm

a peace seeker, like, I don't try to get

439

into fights actively with them, to the

point that I actually spend very little

440

time talking about Bitcoin with them, and

both of them, they don't speak English,

441

, I will ask them to watch my show if they

were to speak English but they don't.

442

So, they will just have to trust

me that , I'm using my best

443

Tali: judgment.

444

That's a very healthy attitude

toward orange pilling.

445

I think everybody has

their own journey, right?

446

You never know what might trigger

them to start asking questions.

447

So yeah, exactly.

448

Yeah.

449

What about your friends?

450

What is it like talking to

other 20 year olds about

451

Vivian: Bitcoin?

452

Right.

453

So my current friend group they are, some

of them are Bitcoin investors and they are

454

huddlers, but they wouldn't necessarily

be Bitcoiners, like they wouldn't

455

identify themselves as Bitcoiners.

456

They're not quite familiar with

the values, my belief systems

457

of the, the Bitcoin ecosystem,

and that's totally fine.

458

I would consider them normie friends

or friends with a good Bitcoin

459

exposure, and that's great financially.

460

I am not toxic at all, like you

can, in my own social circle,

461

if you're not on Twitter.

462

And follow me on Twitter.

463

Like they can typically have

no idea that I'm a big quitter.

464

Like in my personal Instagram, it's

a private account and there's like

465

zero Bitcoin content out there.

466

So I try, I'm, I'm not

like toxic in that way.

467

To have to like never shout about

Bitcoin and talk about Bitcoin all

468

the time, like I'm not that person.

469

I'm already working in the space enough

and I like to expose myself In different

470

aspects, and I don't think I'm fully

defined with only the label Bitcoiner,

471

and I have like many other sides outside

of my work and in my social life.

472

But I make sure that people around

me that I care about do know I'm a

473

Bitcoiner to the point that if they

have any questions, I make myself

474

available to answer these questions.

475

I make myself available to help them set

up things cause it can be very confusing,

476

all the address and copy and paste and

the anxiety of setting up a transaction.

477

Like I've been through all of that, so

I'm there to help them if they need.

478

But I'm not going to be the person

that actively like hold the flag

479

of talking about this all the time.

480

Tali: Again, I feel like that is

such a healthy way of viewing it.

481

my husband and I, when we talked to our

four kids, we have this sense of urgency

482

because we have lived through, decades

of experience in the current financial

483

system and we've felt the pain of it.

484

Being so unfair.

485

And so we have this sense of urgency to

pass on our knowledge and our wisdom.

486

And of course, the more you try to

do that, the more your audience is

487

going to be like, Whoa, Whoa, that's

too much, you know, so I should take

488

the advice from you and just like,

chill, just sit back and relax.

489

Vivian: I think at the end of the

day, it's about what they care about.

490

And like I'm coming from a marketing

background and the number one

491

thing we kind of learned is that

you have to understand what your

492

target audience wants in this case.

493

Like, what do they care about?

494

Because just like I started

live with Bitcoin to focus on

495

the human side, because I don't

care about the technical stuff.

496

Like I don't care about.

497

Like, banks falling down, it's

too much, too much for me.

498

But I'm, I'm interested in humans.

499

I'm interested in human stories and

how they've become who they are.

500

So you just have to understand

what they care about and what they

501

think is cool, especially for kids.

502

Like being cool is a big thing.

503

And then try to spin Bitcoin

or find the commonality between

504

what they think is cool.

505

And with Bitcoin, and they'll

be like, Oh, I want to be cool.

506

And how can I be cool through Bitcoin?

507

And then they will be

like, more interested,

508

Tali: right?

509

Okay, so how can you be cool with Bitcoin?

510

What would you suggest?

511

For kids?

512

Well, for I would say high schoolers

and up, I think little kids are easy.

513

They are so easy.

514

They have no filter that

they have put up no walls.

515

You tell them something like okay I

love working with the little kids,

516

but I'm talking teenagers and up.

517

Vivian: Mm hmm well, just thinking

on the spot, maybe like sometimes

518

like a Bitcoin as a payment message.

519

So for example, if they're into, let's

say K pop, and then they want to buy this

520

piece of CD or this, this poster from

someone on the internet, and then you

521

can pay them by Bitcoin, and he arrives

instantly or, or this person only takes

522

Bitcoin, you have to buy it with Bitcoin.

523

Otherwise, you cannot have

this CD that you really want.

524

You have to find a use

case there for them.

525

So that can be one thing.

526

And then maybe when you give the

money, but instead of give them

527

pocket money, you say, I'll only

give you this money in Bitcoin.

528

And then if they want the money,

they'll have to, like, figure out

529

themselves how to receive, right?

530

Because they want the money.

531

They will go through the hustle just so

that they can receive that pocket money.

532

And then they go, actually go

through that learning process

533

themselves and figuring things out.

534

It's a great entry point for Bitcoin.

535

Later on when if they have some

Bitcoin left, they're going to be

536

saying, Oh, like it's going up.

537

It has doubled and tripled.

538

And then they'll be like, Oh,

this is this is something because

539

normal money doesn't do that.

540

Tali: That's so true.

541

Here's my concern, though.

542

I have four kids.

543

The first one I was able to orange pill,

she went into Bitcoin as it was sliding

544

downward when I went from 68 to 16.

545

And so if we were to give them

a wallet and they're watching

546

their money go down the slide.

547

What do you tell them?

548

Because it's still going

up and down right now.

549

Vivian: Yes.

550

And this is particularly why I,

why I'm not toxic and talk about

551

Bitcoin with all of my friends

because of this, because of this,

552

like, I don't want to be that person.

553

And if they ask for my thoughts on

Bitcoin, I will tell them, if you are

554

not willing to hold it for at least two

years, just don't bother with it at all.

555

I tell them before they get into

it to have the mindset of hodling.

556

Before I even tell them to get into

it, because it's guaranteed if they

557

see the price going down from 60

to 16, then obviously they're going

558

to be like, what the heck, right?

559

But I think to your question, it will

come back to the fundamental values

560

of, it's, it's not just money, it is

money, and it's primarily money, but

561

it's way bigger than money, and it's

about the type of person you want to be.

562

It's about the life you want to create

for yourself and the people you care

563

about now and the future and I would

actually go back to the roots of values

564

and beliefs and why this is created in

the first place and what is the impact

565

because most kids are, especially

bitcoiner kids are provided for and

566

When you were a kid, and rightfully

so, you don't have the understanding

567

of how the monetary system work, how

the society work, and I would actually

568

take a step back to uncover some of the

information about how the society works,

569

how a family work, and the importance

of having money and the importance of

570

creating a life for yourself and how

Bitcoin ultimately allow you to do that.

571

And the very concept of Proof of

work and lower time preference well,

572

help them to build that conviction.

573

And if you give them a wallet

with some Bitcoin in it, you

574

should advise them at least don't

touch it for a couple of years.

575

And then maybe you'll have some pushback,

but they will know in two years.

576

Do you

577

Tali: have some resources that you can

recommend to young people that are really

578

cool that accept Bitcoin or is Bitcoin

579

Vivian: only?

580

A really good educational source that

I have that, that I can recommend.

581

It's called Why Bitcoin Only?

582

I think it's whybitcoinonly.com.

583

It's it's actually put together by

a friend of mine and you can find

584

why Bitcoin only on Twitter as well.

585

This is someone who spent endless amount

of hours to put together a comprehensive.

586

Logical order of Bitcoin on the internet

by the most prominent thinkers in the

587

space and put together a comprehensive

guide for people to understand.

588

The concept Bitcoin is implication.

589

So it's definitely a really

great resource to look into.

590

If, especially if you're

like the researchy type.

591

There's so many good information

out there, but that site and

592

the account is one of the most

comprehensive and well put together

593

guide that's out there about Bitcoin.

594

And so that's on the educational side.

595

There are many, many companies and

resources brands are accepting Bitcoin.

596

And I know that like for teenagers,

for example, a lot of the time

597

they spend on listening to

music, like, like pop culture.

598

And they are right now we're

seeing artists taking kind of

599

Bitcoin donations or Bitcoin tips.

600

And maybe if they find.

601

The artists that they like, they wanna

support and they can support in Bitcoin.

602

And these are great entry points.

603

Tali: the two men you

interviewed in the K-pop industry,

604

. Billy and Beck.

605

They were mentioning specifically about

K pop music and one of them mentioned

606

that there's a lightning store.

607

K pop is so popular

now with young people.

608

It doesn't matter which

culture you're from.

609

Everybody loves K pop.

610

So what website were there specifically

addressing when they were talking

611

about the K pop lightning store?

612

Vivian: Right.

613

both of them, they're working on a

Bitcoin music project called The Way

614

You Believe, and the website is wyb.so.

615

The background is Chani.

616

He used to be an K pop idol, like a

solid K pop idol in a singing group.

617

And then later on he became professional

producer and singer songwriter.

618

And he can, he originally connected

with Jimmy Song , and then got

619

inspired to do a Bitcoin music project

called the Way You Believe, because

620

Bitcoin changes our way to believe.

621

About many things.

622

So that's the idea of the song and

they're trying to leverage the influence

623

of K pop and the well production

of it to bring Bitcoin mainstream.

624

So that's the essence of the project.

625

And what they were saying is that

there's a a huge crypto culture in,

626

South Korea, and very, very little

people are actually Bitcoin only.

627

So their music is on they have their

own site, but it's, there is also

628

hosted on a site where I think they

have a lightning donation part and

629

it's a website that hosts a lot of

music projects and receive support

630

through lightning network, I think.

631

Are you referring to

632

the website?

633

That's called

634

wave lake.

635

Vivian: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

think that's the one, yeah.

636

Tali: Okay.

637

, but wyb.

638

so is their specific

website for that project.

639

Okay.

640

I just want to gather some resources for.

641

Young people who

642

Vivian: want to go into

Bitcoin with something fun.

643

Yeah, and I even contributed

my voice in their project.

644

I was the first one to record a

demo for, for their demo sound.

645

Like I was acting as the lead vocal.

646

So if you tune back to that episode at the

end, you actually like hear my singing in

647

Tali: the demo.

648

That's really fun.

649

So you're also a singer.

650

Well, it's my hobby.

651

Very fun.

652

And are you streaming for sats

right now with your songs?

653

Vivian: No.

654

I would like to though.

655

I would like to.

656

Like singing is one of my, like,

less known trades or things about

657

me, but I really do enjoy singing.

658

I played music growing up and

music till today is like still.

659

A lot of a source of happiness, and

my speaker is permanently on when I'm

660

at work at home so it's definitely,

definitely an area of interest of,

661

of mine growing up, so I, I think.

662

Music things, just hobbies in

general that people care about.

663

And if we find a common connection

between these hobbies and Bitcoin,

664

then they're going to be, it's

going to be natural for the, for

665

everyone to, to get it at one point.

666

Tali: Yeah, for sure.

667

So going back to your

background of traveling.

668

From China to Canada, to the UK,

back to Canada, are you noticing

669

any sort of cultural differences

in terms of Bitcoin adoption?

670

Vivian: Actually, I don't know

because I don't encounter a

671

lot of Bitcoiners around me.

672

Most Bitcoiners I've seen are on

Bitcoin conferences and naturally so.

673

I think we're still very much, very early.

674

In, in the space that we don't encounter,

like it's still a very, it's a, it's

675

a thrill if you see a bitcoiner on the

street and you instantly identify them.

676

Like I'm usually the one who wears

like Bitcoin related shirts outside.

677

And I sometimes get eyed for it

because not everybody understand this.

678

I have the statement on my hinge profile,

which is like a app to meet people and.

679

There's a question, a prompt called

we will get along if, and I say it

680

will get along if you're a Bitcoiner

and I have people specifically,

681

they match with me just to send a

vomiting emoji to that very statement.

682

So we're that early.

683

So I don't actually see tons of Bitcoiners

in the physical locations that I'm

684

in and I'm hoping this will change

685

Tali: very soon.

686

I'm sorry you get those messages.

687

That's awful.

688

Come on, people.

689

That's rude.

690

I talked to a Bitcoiner woman who said,

I don't know if I can ever date somebody

691

who's not Bitcoiner going forward.

692

Vivian: I kind of share that.

693

I kind of share that.

694

It will at this point

is not a deal breaker.

695

But if if they send me the vomiting emoji

to that very statement, of course, like

696

that's like a that's like a no, hard no.

697

But I also recognize there's so

many Bitcoiners out there who don't

698

know that they're Bitcoiners yet.

699

Like they already have

these values installed.

700

They already believe they feel a steep

signs of frustration with what's going

701

on in the world today and don't know

why and don't know how it can change.

702

And what do you need to do is

just introduce Bitcoin to them.

703

And it'll be like instantly

become Bitcoiners.

704

Like these people are fine.

705

But ultimately, ultimately I

would definitely want my partner

706

to be a Bitcoiner, like it's

going to be a requirement,

707

Tali: I guess.

708

Okay, any last suggestions for

women who are still sitting

709

on the fence about Bitcoin?

710

Vivian: I think this doesn't specifically

apply to Bitcoin, but really with

711

everything women are very resilient

just resilient species in general.

712

And oftentimes the drawback of it

is that we're too adaptive in the,

713

in the sense that we sometimes take

a more passive approach to adapt

714

the environment around us, rather

than taking a proactive approach to

715

create the environment around us.

716

So what I would encourage everybody

that's out there, not only on the fence

717

of Bitcoin, but on, but just in general

to be more intentional in life, to

718

think about if I'm, training myself

to get used to something, or if this is

719

something that I want and I like to have

train ourselves to have more autonomy.

720

To make more active decisions based

on our beliefs and our values, instead

721

of just accommodating people around us

and trying to fit in the blank space,

722

rather we create space for ourselves,

we create the life that we want to live

723

and take a more proactive approach,

and when you start doing that, you will

724

start to see so many things are wrong.

725

There's so many things that you don't

necessarily agree with, but you're

726

playing along for the sake of it.

727

Women are more on the

front of peace seekers.

728

So sometimes we would be

agreeable just to avoid conflicts.

729

Yeah, I suggest everybody

to reconsider that approach.

730

Just be more intentional and less

afraid of putting ourselves out there.

731

Make authentic decisions, be more

true to ourselves and be more real.

732

Social issues and economy

is not a patent for men.

733

And these things, if explained

well, are not too complicated

734

for everyday women out there.

735

And this is what we're doing at

Life with Bitcoin by focusing on

736

individual stories, like those are

the things on the emotional side.

737

These are the things that

women can relate better.

738

And I believe it will help.

739

And I'm very excited to do

my share for the community.

740

But yeah, just live intentionally.

741

Do things with a more proactive approach.

742

And we're already on the low

time preference standard.

743

So that's already done.

744

And then.

745

One day or another the, the

puzzles will piece together

746

and it will lead to Bitcoin.

747

Tali: Well said, well said.

748

Thank you so much, Vivian.

749

It was so wonderful chatting with you.

750

Thank you so much for sharing

your Bitcoin story with

751

Vivian: us.

752

Yeah, of course.

753

Thanks for reaching out

and to stay in touch.

754

I'm B t c Viv, so B T C V I V on Twitter.

755

And the show is called Life With Bitcoin.

756

It's also on Twitter.

757

It's Life with Bitcoin, but

wi just n w so l I s E W.

758

I'm on YouTube as well, and feel free to

reach out if there's anything I can help.

759

Tali: Thanks for joining us today

760

.

If the discussion with our guest resonated with you and you would

761

like to dive deeper into the world of

Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the

762

Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.

763

The meetup link is in the show notes.

764

Also, if there are women in your life

whom you think would both enjoy and

765

benefit from learning more about Bitcoin,

please share Orange Hatter with them.

766

Until next time, bye!