What if the candidate who looks perfect on paper is exactly the one you shouldn't hire?

Eight Season 4 guests, from a bike brand to an industrial giant to three small hardware studios, keep landing on the same answer from completely different directions. The flawless CV, the fixed job spec, and the polished portfolio are the least reliable signal in the room.

What actually predicts a good hire is fit, curiosity, and how someone handles a question they weren't ready for, whether that's a new hire asking what to do, a job title that almost puts the right person off applying, or a founder telling a candidate outright that the business isn't for them.

Join the Why Design community to keep this conversation going, and to hear how other hiring managers in physical product are solving the same problem.

This episode is sponsored by Vax and TTi Floorcare. Kodu, is running the hiring. Recruiting for Vax for more than ten years, placing over fifty people including a VP of Engineering and a Head of Design. We know how they build. Right now they’re rebuilding their UK engineering and innovation function from the ground up: advanced development, design engineering and industrial design, all at once. We haven’t seen them move at this pace in a decade of working with them.

What You'll Learn

• 🔍 Why the candidates who look imperfect on paper often make the better hire.
• 🗣️ How to spend most of an interview on the person, not the portfolio.
• 🧩 Why building a team around available talent beats writing a fixed job spec.
• 🏷️ What one wrong word in a job title does to your candidate pool.
• 🧭 Why independence matters more than hand holding on a small team.
• 🎯 How to spot the fit that actually predicts whether someone stays.
• ⚙️ Why a specialist hire is sometimes worth more than a confident generalist.

Memorable Quotes

"It's the grit in the oyster that creates the pearl." Will Butler-Adams, Brompton (S4E06).

"If you knew, you wouldn't be hiring that." Will Butler-Adams, Brompton (S4E06).

"That tends to be a unicorn every time." Tylan Tschopp, Westinghouse (S4E08).

"What happens if you didn't have this role?" Rich Thrush, Guitar Center (S4E03).

"I'm not gonna hold anyone's hand, I'm not gonna micromanage." Paul Marshall, Rapid Fluidics (S4E07).

"Maybe our kind of business is not for you." Paul Metaxatos, Motive Design (S4E09).

Newlane : https://www.whydesign.club/episodes/S4E1

Guitar Center: https://www.whydesign.club/episodes/S4E3

FutureWave: https://www.whydesign.club/episodes/S4E4

Diplik: https://www.whydesign.club/episodes/S4E5

Brompton Bicycles: https://www.whydesign.club/episodes/S4E6

Rapid Fluidics: https://www.whydesign.club/episodes/S4E7

Westinghouse: https://www.whydesign.club/episodes/S4E8

Motive Design: https://www.whydesign.club/episodes/S4E9

🎧 Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube & Amazon - https://whydesign.club/

👥 Join the Why Design community - https://teamkodu.com/whydesign/

📸 Follow @whydesign on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/why.design_/

📸 Follow @_whydesign on TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@_whydesign

📸 Follow @kodurecruitment on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kodurecruitment/

🔗 Follow Chris Whyte on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrchriswhyte/

About the Episode

Why the Perfect CV Is the Wrong Hire, A Why Design Guide on Hiring (SN 4 Recap) is a Season 4 compilation episode of Why Design, the podcast hosted by Chris Whyte, founder of Kodu. Each episode brings together founders, engineers, and design leaders working at the frontier of physical product to talk honestly about what it takes to build hardware teams that ship.

About Kodu

Kodu is the specialist recruitment partner for hardware and deep tech teams. We place industrial designers, mechanical engineers, and product development leaders in companies building physical products, from medtech and consumer hardware to robotics and mobility. We work with founding teams and global R&D organisations alike, and we understand what great looks like in the room, not just on paper. NPS: +92.

teamkodu.com

I I'm always wary of perfect. ~ anyone who thinks they're perfect,

any product that is perfect, nothing is perfect.

And actually it's the imperfection that delivers innovation.

This is the Y design hiring compilation.

What it actually takes to build a team that ships physical products.

Not the maxims, the real thing.

Let's get into it.

I I'm always wary of perfect. ~ anyone who thinks they're perfect,

any product that is perfect, nothing is perfect.

And actually it's the imperfection that delivers innovation.

it's the grit in the oyster that creates the pearl.

And so we need to be permanently uncomfortable.

We need to be surrounding ourselves with people who are different to ourselves,

that challenge the status quo.

~ that look at the world differently.

And that might be cultural, it might be,

you know, where their life experiences have taken them,

what their career has done. but,

you know, you just you know, I can walk into some businesses and they tend

to be in the service industry,

lawyers and bankers, and you just think,

it's a sort of it's a sausage machine.

This is a little sausage on the in front of a computer next to the next sausage.

And, you know, and they're churning out,

you know, the same stuff. Well,

that just wouldn't work for us.

And I'm so proud of the like furious diversity

inside this organization. And actually,

you if you look too hard for the perfect of anything,

you're gonna pay a premium because you're competing against the rest

of the the world of of of employers who who are desperate to find

a perfect employee. Whereas if you're prepared to spend a bit more time

and look beyond

that and invite people who maybe don't fit but have something a little

bit different about them and that their CV isn't the way you thought

and and it isn't chat GBT and it's got some left of field odd things in

it that make you go, ooh God, that's a bit ooh,

that's a bit different. Different.

Ooh, interesting. And maybe they come in and maybe they can't sit

up perfectly and give you a firm handshake and look you straight in the eye.

But they there's something about them that's just interesting.

Others will overlook them. They might may not see that.

They're too

They they're too they're not prepared to take a risk on anyone,

~ unless they're perfect. And if you can back somebody who maybe isn't obvious

and maybe is a little bit different,

then they will thank you for it.

They will be more committed and they're probably better value.

Bring a bit of that risk into the business.

Allow people to make mistakes,

try stuff, recruit people who are a little bit different and see what they might

bring rather than just the absolute perfect individual.

You know what you're gonna get,

but it's not gonna take you that.

Big step forward.

I I I don't I don't even know the depth of that.

I mean that used to be the case where we'd people who join the company

and they'd say, yeah, what would you like me to do?

And I would say to them, that's a very,

very, very odd question. I've got no idea.

I can tell you where we're trying to go,

I can tell you what we're trying to achieve,

but I haven't just spent three months,

you know, looking for somebody who has the skills,

knowledge and experience that we don't have to join the company and then tell them

what to do.

How can I tell you what to do when you have the skills and knowledge I don't have?

I can tell you what we're trying to achieve.

Your job is to tell me what we need to do to get there and what you need from

me to help you get there. But please don't ask me what you need to do.

I don't know. If you knew you wouldn't be hiring that.

Exactly. But that's that that is not normal.

And so people think when they join a company,

they ought to be told what to do.

And we say no. Our environment is full of people who some like to

be forward and some like to be back.

It doesn't

change ~ their value in terms of the total operation.

That being said, in a consultant operation,

you do need people who are more forward.

You can you can have several that are,

you know, like, hey, you're amazing at what you do,

and you can be in the room and you can be quiet and you can absorb

and say three words that are super meaningful.

That's great. Or you can be like me who,

you know, can't can't bear the silence and you know needs to

articulated and at times should probably be quieter.

But you know, I I always feel like it is somebody's job to manage a conversation,

especially in a in a business environment,

to move it along. And early on I learned that,

you know, like you people can look around the room,

but there's a lot of confidence that's given,

you know, when somebody really takes the lead.

And leadership is something where people give it if if it's offered up

and and if it's if it's done in a manner that's that's productive.

I am a stereotypical industrial designer in the fact that I will look

at the portfolio first and I will read absolutely none of it at first.

We're just gonna look at images.

We're very visual people and if you haven't refined the skills for that yet,

~ then you know, you haven't committed enough.

So it potential is is important.

So it really depends. You know,

if you're looking at entry level,

potential is key. You know, are is someone making the effort?

Are they growing through their portfolio?

~ can they sketch render? I know that that may be ~

viewed as an older skill by some younger folks that are using VizCom or some

of the AI tools, but ~ to date I still have not found ~ that

you can manipulatively control and execute a design through that.

They're a nice support and there's ways to use those tools.

But if you can't communicate by sketching,

~ that's a huge disadvantage. So you have to be able to sketch.

~ My least favorite thing, and I I went through some portfolio reviews recently with

a a a school. I I won't mention who it was,

but

three or four of the students said,

~ me and sketching have a love hate relationship or I hate sketching.

I don't like to do it. And I was like,

Well one, not something you say in an interview,

but two, I appreciate your candor,

but this is just not going to be a fit ever.

I mean, if you're sit in a room with a either a senior leader

or you're sitting there with manufacturing side,

like and you need to solve a problem,

you need to like be able to throw down and communicate ~ a three dimensional concept

by by hand in a matter of minutes.

~

That's just a requirement. ~ what makes you tick?

What have you demonstrated in your life,

not necessarily in your in your career,

but in your life, whether it's supporting a charity,

or whether it's coaching a team,

or whether it's you know being really interested in a hobby or or some sort

of activity, a a a determination,

a commitment, a preparation.

To stick your head above the parapet and take a bit of shit.

~ I think it's it's in somebody's personal life that you understand who they

are and what makes them tick and whether they're gonna fit.

The other bit is just a an easy bit,

and then it's for me in my interviews it'll be eighty percent of my time

is who are you? What are you, what do you want in life?

You know, what what makes you tick?

~ and can you align with us

And are you sufficiently different that you will bring challenge

and perspective to what we're trying to achieve?

~ I love building teams. It's a really fun thing for me.

~ you find out, you know, who messes well with me and my style of being very direct

and blunt and ~ high energy. ~ I've always told young designers that we're we're

here to to to build rock stars only.

So you know, it's a level of effort and we'll put the same effort into

the designer in in training and helping and mentorship.

I'm not one who's gonna write up the ideal

traits and skills for something and try to go find that person.

In the design world that tends to be a unicorn every time I do that anyways.

~ I more like to look at what talent is available and what can I what type

of team can we build with that available talent.

Experts are are essential also to nourish the the the the work you're gonna

do and and you're gonna find more easily your experts with a a pool

of freelancers that are that are very good in what they do.

~

And then the only thing that that matters in that selection is just to

be sure that the if there's a fit,

i if if the values and the way of working and and you know the culture is

is is ~ is attuned because you know they will have to work together with

our team or with a potentially other experts.

I always look for a right hand person too,

and that's someone who can step in a room when I'm not there and lead

and that means talking to a CEO or talking to someone else and speaking ~

From a place where you have a professional design opinion and there's

a reason for it. ~ this is not something that ~ many designers I've seen

in my career tend to take a more subservient role when they're talking to,

you know, senior leadership and more of a service based role,

which is is important when you're a consultant,

perhaps, but you still need to have your professional design opinion,

not here's ten options.

Which one do you like? You know,

we we we had to open up like an international market as well.

~ so we everything is in English,

you know, we're like ~ we we we most of the time we we work with yeah,

foreigners and and and with an international companies.

So so having a team that is quite international is not obviously ~ make

ma can make sense ~ and in

Yeah, this is something that that we had up for us.

The the most important is is to be sure that we have the right

a right person working in in in in ~ in a field that he likes,

that he enjoys also. ~ I think it's super important for us because

~ as you mentioned, we we blend ~ engineers,

creatives, strategists, a lot of different disciplines.

And and I think it's ~ it's quite different when you work with people that

are so different ~ from you.

~ and you need to have an open mind.

You need, you know, where engineers have to to learn to be able

to work with designers and and vice versa.

And and this is an exercise that is not that common.

I mean that that everybody needs to do.

I mean that larger companies have are doing,

but but ~ we notice that there's a lot of silos ~ in these companies

and and this is what we're trying to break a little bit.

So because of that, ~

It is something that is quite important.

Is this this kind of culture of of the company,

a culture within FutureWave where we we need to stay quite open minded regarding

like each other's skills, competences,

sector, innovations, you know,

like th these are very important because they nourish a lot of the work you're going

to do and and it's going to to ~ to help also to to to work better together.

~

So we are much stronger all together,

obviously, than than than alone.

especially in an ecosystem with hardware.

I think. ~ it's it's when you design a product as as we already discussed together,

we ~ it's a whole ecosystem you need to be aware of.

And ~ for one person it can be a lot to understand and to have a holistic,

a fully holistic approach. I think the designer mentality has a bit this kind

of approach by itself, of course,

but

But but but he's not an expert in many he's you know,

we often say that didn't design is never an expert of anything,

you know. But but he's but but it's it's sort of interesting because it's it's it's

allowing him to be a bit of a glue or to to you know to to create a

bit these kind of these links.

But at the same time, yeah, that's why it's super important to also have

a lot of different variety of experts that that are going to complement

the the project.

itself. ~ so so yeah,

I think I think it makes a lot of sense to have a large variety

of skills and competences but also a large variety of culture.

This episode is sponsored by Vax and TTI Floorcare,

and Kodu, my company, is running the hiring I'm about to describe.

So you know exactly what this is,

and this is why I wanted to make it anyway.

I've recruited for Vax for more than 10 years,

~ over 50 people, including a VP of engineering and a head of design.

I know that building well. Right now they are rebuilding their

UK engineering and innovation function from the ground up.

Advanced development, design engineering,

and industrial design.

all at once. I've not seen them move at this pace in a decade of working with them.

So I'm going to tell you what is actually happening and you can decide.

That's great question to ask. Those kind of ~ extreme questions that that frame

out the space. Like what what happens if you didn't have this role?

You know, what what happens if you had three people fill that role?

What it what happens y you you can have all these different discussions about about

and that will help them frame up the problem.

I th that's the next part, which I I love your you you you you just you

you took it right there, which is to frame it up.

And and that's another part that that people struggle with because they

They just say, hey, I talked to a bunch of users,

I had some great ideas. But they never get into the actual real problem statement.

And and that's worth spending a lot of time on and being very particular about

it because it it provides the guardrails for the team.

It provides the the the the the way you frame the problem can

can mean ~ you know much, many,

many different things. I I I don't know if you know th the Theodore Levitt,

but he ~ he has this famous quote about

See if I can get it right from memory.

It's the people aren't looking to buy a drill.

They're looking to buy a hole in the wall.

Who knows about manufacturing and assembly and is in helmets or

at least safety products. But ~ yeah,

so we blundered and stumbled and kind of found people.

and our networking capacity is is has definitely been helpful.

You know, it didn't initially I I I think I have alerts on things like VP brand,

VP.

you know, product product, VP design,

like and I've helped So you you were already searching for that kind of role.

So it's I was because I you know,

I like like I have a broader background,

but I I wouldn't encourage people to do that anyway and and apply for jobs that

are adjacent and and and look at those those things,

even if you're at a you know sort of mid or or entry level.

Yeah. Because it's sometimes you're looking for someone who has a a little

bit of a superpower that's outside of the job description.

So that that that could be if if it's like ~

You know, it w I I I think you know,

they wrote the best job description they could for this this role.

I'm not sure if they necessarily knew the right person for it.

~ I'm thankful that it came to me.

It's gotta be someone who who can appreciate that this is

a very flexible environment which A it has advantages but you know there's there's

disad not disadvantages but challenges in terms of ~ you know the way we operate.

I I assume everybody can just get on with it.

You know, I'm not gonna hold anyone's hand,

I'm not gonna micromanage, you know,

it's a case of we've got jobs to do,

we've got customers to keep happy,

I can't be responsible for everything.

You know, I'm you know, we would delegate that down and make sure everybody knows

what we can do. ~ and I think that independence goes a long way.

~ and it's it's interesting with the the the grads who are working with

us who've been ~ got two fan fantastic graduate engineers who started last September

having both done summer internships.

You know, I've very aware that this is this isn't like any other company you're ever

going to work for. I mean as a designer usually you already have different hats.

I mean you're between ~ sometime

working on like strategy, marketing,

target group or so I think designer are also like people

who are not really specialized,

they are good in many things. But I think once we can get to sort of the ten,

twelve people mark, things will stabilize and actually we can have

a proper company culture.

that I think we need to get to that size.

Obviously we can only get to that size if we can justify being that size.

I'm not just gonna go out there and employ four more people just as ballast

to to fill the space up, to fill the desks up.

You know, it's it's gotta be a worthwhile role and and we're we're we're looking

into what roles do we fill first,

'cause obviously you can only you can only take people on if you can afford

to pay them. You can only afford to pay them if you've got the work.

You can only do the work if you've got the people.

It's it becomes chicken and egg ~ of of how we grow.

So

I think then the next step is pot potentially expanding the sales team

a little more. That allows us to get more sales,

that allows us to recruit more technical staff and then we can kind

of gain momentum that way. And maybe maybe our kind of business is not for you.

You know, like if you if you want to be in an environment where people

are enthusiastic about what they do,

the work is diverse. you know,

there's the thrill of the of the kill,

there's the agony of defeat, it's shared,

it's ~ you know, we've it's it's it's an alive environment.

It's really important when you're in a business it it at any stage is it's sort

of more important to know what you're not good at than to know what you are good at.

~ you probably think you're good at more things than you actually are.

So focusing on knowing what you're not good at.

And there's nothing wrong with not being good at certain things,

because then you fill those gaps with people around you who are very good

at those things and you compliment each other.

And so I have spent most of my time

not difficult in my case, knowing what I'm not good at,

which is most things. Organisation,

structure, you know,

report writing and all that sort of stuff.

I'm just not good at it. And so I need people around me who are very good at that,

detailed people. I love the big picture and they're charging off,

but you know, there's sort of a litany of chaos behind me.

So I need people who compliment me in that regard.

And ~ I've been very, very lucky to have brilliant people.

Support me on this journey because it's been a massive team effort.

The best founders and leaders on this show all arrived at the same place eventually.

Not just hire great people, hire people who are better than you at what they do.

And then trust them to do it. Every guest on this compilation has something

to teach clients and hiring managers in hardware.

If any of them caught your attention,

the full episodes are all linked below.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for listening to Why Design.

If this episode gave you some new ideas,

share it with someone in your team who'd find it useful.

And follow the show so you don't miss what's next.

And if you're building a product team or looking for your next challenge

in design or engineering, that's exactly what we do at Kodu.

We help companies hire smarter and faster,

and help great talent find work that actually fits.

I'm Chris White. Connect with me on LinkedIn and let's keep raising

the bar for design leadership.

Until next time.

Stay curious, stay creative and keep asking why design.