Toju Duke is an EMEA Responsible AI Program Manager at Google with over 15 years experience spanning Advertising, Retail, Not-For-Profits, and Tech.

She designs Responsible AI Programs focussed on the development and implementation of Ethical AI frameworks amongst Google's product teams. She is committed to driving social justice through AI while acknowledging the diverse backgrounds, cultures and ethnicities of society, and ensuring Responsible AI frameworks are applied to developing such technologies.

She is a prolific public speaker with a proven track record on business success and project management. In addition, she is the Founder of Refyne, a Manager for Women in AI Ireland, Head of Black and Brilliant AI solutions, and Tech start-up Mentor and Business Advisor

Sponsor Information

Visit www.yourheights.com and use acuriouslife10 for a 10% discount.

Transcript

Hadley: [00:00:00] Tells you absolute pleasure to see you again after so many years. And welcome to the show.

[00:00:05] Toju: [00:00:05] Thank you very much, Hadley. Good to see you again as well. 

[00:00:09] Hadley: [00:00:09] Awesome. So, so listen, as you know, this is a show where essentially we want to, we want to find out in this case, the woman behind the movement, right.

[00:00:17] And we want to know more about you. So, uh, we kind of take this approach of campfire, like discussions where imagine you're sitting around a campfire, telling the story of our life and yeah, you're up, you know, but before we get into Toju and what makes her tick, um, I've got one question that I ask each guest.

[00:00:36] Uh, and this is what does curiosity mean to you?

[00:00:38] Toju: [00:00:38] Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. Um, I always say about curiosity did not kill the cat because where we grew up, we grew up with the saying of curiosity, killed the cat. So don't be too curious cause it can get killed and I've learned that that's not the case.

[00:00:52] So I think for me, curiosity is just having a genuine hunger and thirst to learn more. And to know more, to understand what lies beneath the surface on different subject topics on subject matters. So it's, um, just wanting to go deeper, dig a little bit deeper, being willing and open to learn new things.

[00:01:14] And if you hear about a certain concept, just being curious enough to know what it means, um, why, why it exists, what are the challenges? And you find out that the more curious you are in life, it gets more interesting because you're learning so many different things and that can even help yeah. That can help with, you know, your direction in life, in your career, your personal life, you know, and you just accumulate so much knowledge by being curious.

[00:01:40] Yeah. 

[00:01:41] Hadley: [00:01:41] And do you, do you find sometimes that actually it's because having, and one of my other guests classes it as general curiosity, right. But if by having a general curiosity about things, you tend to discover more about yourself. And in fact, um, what direction. You want to go in right? Uh, in life and your personal life as well as professional life.

[00:02:02] Do you, do you find that statement to be accurate? 

[00:02:05] Toju: [00:02:05] Yeah, that's what's happened to me now. I got into the field of AI is from curiosity. I was just curious, what is this whole ML hype about? And there was a, uh, sales, um, there was a training for non-techies at my workplace in Google. And I, I went out of curiosity.

[00:02:20] I was like, I just want to learn more. What's this whole hype about, at the moment I heard about it, I was like, wow, I want more. But I kept on wanting more. I'm still watching more. Yay. That's pretty much me,

[00:02:32] Hadley: [00:02:32] but isn't that the beauty about it? It's like the fact that there you'll never ever be able to learn

[00:02:39] everything is, is encouraging because you know, it just means that your curiosity needs no bounds and it needs no ends. It just needs a little direction from time to time and watch you go deeper on, but, you know, curiosity itself doesn't necessarily need an end point. 

[00:02:54] Toju: [00:02:54] Exactly. And it just makes life interesting.

[00:02:56] You should never settle down and just think, you know, everything. I don't want to learn more. That's, that's, that's a dead man's position. Like it's only people in the grave that can never learn anything more. And like, you always have to be open to taking on so much more knowledge and it's to just guide you in your life decisions on, you know, where you're going to go.

[00:03:14] And, you know, sometimes everyone still wants profit. I'm making my money. Like, it's just, it's just important to be curious, really important. 

[00:03:21] Hadley: [00:03:21] That's awesome. So come on. Let's, let's find out about Toju let's find out the essence of Toju, right? So, so, so give us, give us tell us a story, right? Um, where were you born siblings, et cetera.

[00:03:33] Um, Take us to the very beginning. Okay. 

[00:03:36] Toju: [00:03:36] All right. Um, I'm not going to tell you my age is not gonna go that way.

[00:03:40] Hadley: [00:03:40] Of course not and I will not ask you, I'm a gentleman or you look about 21, right? So I'm going to just go with that.

[00:03:46] Toju: [00:03:46] I think I'm 16. And so I was born in 1925, so I'm actually Nigerian. Um, I grew up in Nigeria.

[00:03:58] I was born in Nigeria, so my mom, Hadley: which part of Nigeria, sorry, Toju: down South called river States. Um, the city is called Port Harcourt and that's where all the oil companies were all based. So we had Shell Chevron, Chevron, wasn't in Port Harcourt it was in Lagos, but we had, uh, Slumber J and all the oil servicing and production companies are all based in Port Harcourt.

[00:04:22] Okay. 

[00:04:23] Hadley: [00:04:23] So it was a pretty industrial type city, but, but pretty large. And I guess with oil, there was a lot of money as well. 

[00:04:31] Toju: [00:04:31] Yes. The money was flowing in there a lot. Um, everything is in the past now because it just got really bad. Um, people started kidnapping, anyone who seemed affluent. So. Um, I think with time the companies had to relocate, um, and leave.

[00:04:45] And I think the economy got a little bit bad, but it wasn't, it was great then, because it was just offering jobs to, you know, the local indigents. And it was just a great way. Everyone, a lot of people wanted to become engineers, especially the men so that they can end up getting a job in the old company.

[00:05:00] Cause you know, once you get a job in the oil company, they literally made like the pay really well. Yeah. So, um, 

[00:05:07] Hadley: [00:05:07] it's actually something I want to touch on earlier. It's just that statement, especially the men, right. Because it's engineering and I'm assuming that at least in part that has an influence on, on your responsible and equitable AI kind of, um, mission right now.

[00:05:23] But, but we'll, we'll get, we'll get there later. Yeah. So, so, so, so we in the city. Yeah. How do you pronounce it again? Just to remind me. 

[00:05:33] Toju: [00:05:33] So ports, Port is one word and Harcourt is the second word. So it's almost like an English word. Um, and, uh, the state was full of seas, so there were always thunderstorms and lightnings and he had some stories, like there was always this makeup story don't stand under the tree because you could get struck by lightning.

[00:05:52] Um, we've had stories of people dying from being struck by lightning. Yeah. So anytime.. Hadley: That’s shocking! I know.

[00:06:04] Sorry. All right. Yeah. Laughter is always the best way to deal with stuff, but I couldn't let that one go.

[00:06:13] Toju: I didn't know anyone. I'm trying to think of real stories. I don't think they were many like whether there were odd, odd, odd ones, but yeah, in a way right now, if I hear thunderstorms, now I get excited cause it reminds me of my childhood and, and it 

[00:06:27] Hadley: [00:06:27] reminds you yeah. Johannesburg is kinda the same where the sky lights up.

[00:06:30] Right. It's it's crazy. So, so, okay. Family, mother, father, siblings.

[00:06:36] Toju: [00:06:36] Yeah. So, um, I'm actually the only child. Um, my mom, my mom had three miscarriages that I'm aware of. Um, so I grew up as an only child and I absolutely hated it. You know, I used to talk to myself, talk to my dolls. Well, it's just such a lonely experience.

[00:06:52] So sometimes I used to imagine that I had three other siblings and I was like the third child. I, when I was a teenager, my mom used to annoy me. I would just be like thinking of how it all revolted against my parents. Um, and actually at that time, I've lost my dad. I lost my dad at 12, Hadley: Sorry to hear that Toju: thank you. so it was just near my mom when she was really.

[00:07:09] She was really over-protective as well. Um, and I saw the impact it had on my mom, but I just grew up with, um, a very large imagination. And, um, at some stage I have to work on it because I could just sit down and just scare myself to death. I could just sit down and start imagining crazy stuff and start screaming.

[00:07:25] And I was like, Oh, Hey, you have to stop this nonsense. It's like, you need some drama.     Hadley: That's awesome. Well, everybody needs to spice it up a little. Toju: Okay. Okay. So I kind of worked on that. Um, and I went into acting at some stage and I love that. Maybe that was just a way of me expressing myself, but I was always like a very good actress.

[00:07:50] I was always like taking the lead 

[00:07:56] Hadley: [00:07:56] a little bit more constructive way to express your creativity. Love darling. 

[00:07:57] Toju: [00:07:57] Yes. Exactly exactly. And you know, your imagination and all that. So, so that, that's a, that's the family side of things. Um, okay. Okay. 

[00:08:08] Hadley: [00:08:08] And, and were you spoiled? 

[00:08:10] Toju: [00:08:10] Well, people say I was, but I’ll never admit it

[00:08:17] um, well, you know, when I was going out, a few people met me and said that they never knew I was an only child. Like if I didn't say it, sorry, I guess I was also pretty much grown up and pretty responsible to a certain degree. 

[00:08:31] Hadley: [00:08:31] And, and did you do your schooling in, in, in Port Harcourt?

[00:08:33] Toju: [00:08:33] Yeah, so my mom was doing a PhD.

[00:08:36] She gave birth to me and she was actually in the UK Loughborough. Um, and then went back to Nigeria to give birth to me, and then took me back with her to Loughborough when I was about one or two, six months. And I was very annoyed with her when I was an adult, because I couldn't get a visa into the UK easily. And I was like but I was almost born here.

[00:08:57] Um, so I was in the UK. I was in Loughborough for like four or five years. Then I went back to Nigeria. 

[00:09:04] Hadley: [00:09:04] Um, so what was your mom's PhD in?

[00:09:06] Toju: [00:09:06] Um, I think it was physiology, so she's, uh, she's a lecturer she's she retired two years ago. So she was a professor, my dad, who was a professor. She was, um, physiology and nutrition.

[00:09:16] Um, on my dad's, um, was microbiology, so both scientists, um, yeah. 

[00:09:23] Hadley: [00:09:23] And did that not have an influence or some form of pressure for you to go down this PhD route as well? Yeah, 

[00:09:30] Toju: [00:09:30] No. Really because really, because I've seen that in Nigeria, the government doesn't value the lectures on the educational system. So they’re always going on strike.

[00:09:40] The unions were always going on strike. There were paid pennies. Uh, and I was like, there's no way I'm going to study this hard to be paid pennies Hadley: For that long. Toju: For that long. So my mom always used to call me a dunce and say that I'm the only one in the family that has refused to do a PhD. And I'm like, even till today, I'm still having, I'm like, you know, I keep on having this conversations, you know, and I'm like, I keep on asking myself, I don't want to go into academia.

[00:10:07] So why do I need a PhD? You know? And that's, uh, for me, it's not just about the titles. And I think about the four years, I'm going to sink my life into it. And I'm like, you know, I know the other routes. Now you can do PhD by publication, but that's still me doing some research and writing a few research papers and I still don't see the need.

[00:10:24] Hadley: [00:10:24] Any other moments that is memorable to you, kind of, you know, going through primary school, going through high school that you think you want to kind of call out as either significant in your life going forward or especially this, this, this moving between England or the UK and Nigeria, you know, uh, what that was like and how it impacted you.

[00:10:46] Toju: [00:10:46] Yeah, I think the move from the UK, I mean, it was a culture shift for me. Um, but I don't remember so much of it apart from the fact that my mom said I had an accent and I, and I swallowed it with Gary, which is a Nigerian male that she always used to joke about that. Um, but the significant part is, is the same thing you've touched upon is making that choice on what to studying in university.

[00:11:09] So, um, I'm, I'm pretty sure it's the same in Johannesburg as in Nigeria. And I think for almost every family of colour for us, you know, growing up, there were only three professions you could get into. It was either being a lawyer, a doctor or an engineer. Yeah. It's worthless. Don't even think about going into the arts man.

[00:11:30] 

[00:11:30] Hadley: [00:11:30] It's like you serious?! get a proper job!

[00:11:43] Toju: [00:11:43] I’m almost subconsciously doing the same thing to my kids, but not intentionally, but sometimes I am just like, this one will be an engineer, an engineer, this one a doctor I'll be like, this could be a doctor or a technical doctor or something. But anyway, um, but my parents, I just chose medicine because to the point that we made before engineering was almost for boys.

[00:12:01] But at that stage, I didn't realize that I just. Doctor just felt great. So my dad's friends would come to the house and be like Toju, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I'm like, I want to be a, doctor and they like Yay!

[00:12:14] mommy's proud. Daddy's proud. And I that's my goal 

[00:12:19] Hadley: [00:12:19] because there's this big props to the parents as well at that point. Right. It's almost more about them than it is about like you want to do.

[00:12:26] Toju: [00:12:26] Exactly. Exactly. And it's so funny because my parents are doctors. I'm surprised that didn't come up as a, as an option.

[00:12:33] Right. And most of my parents' friends are lecturers as well, but it always had to fall within those three different careers. Um, so I grew up saying, okay, I wanted to be a doctor. And then by the time I got to my fifth year in high school, I thought about it. I was like, no, I don't want to be a doctor anymore.

[00:12:50] I know now the universities are always going on strike and, uh, it's almost like seven to eight odd years to get a medical degree. Like I think it was supposed to take like six years, but because of all the strikes and the strikes could be as long as six months, six months and university students are out of university, they can't do anything.

[00:13:10] They can't study. They can’t do anything, they can’t do their exams. Um, by the time I’d heard all of that. You know, I'd heard of stories of people eight to nine years. They still hadn't graduated from medical school. And I was like, that is not for me. Then the second thing was, you know, I learned that you have to study, study, study, don't have time for a life.

[00:13:26] Don't have time to party and all that. And I was like, I'm going to party and stuff. So I was like, I'm not going to do it. Um, but then I didn't realize that was almost too late to make that choice. So I had to retake my A levels exams. I had to wait for an extra year. So 

[00:13:44] Hadley: [00:13:44] you did your A levels here and sorry, you did your levels in the UK?

[00:13:47] Toju: [00:13:47] No, in Nigeria. It's it's, I'm just, I'm just using the equivalence. We call it jam over there. Um, jam exams. Um, so I had to retake that I had to wait an extra year to retake it because now I was asking to switch from a science student to an art student and I had no idea what I wanted to study. So the only thing I could think of was mass communication.

[00:14:08] I know I wanted to be like a newscaster. Now I wasn't quite passionate about that, but out of all the options that were available, that just seems to be the most interesting thing. And I have friends who, who wants to do it as well. So I, I.

[00:14:25] Hadley: [00:14:25] And you could get in. Toju: No I couldn’t get in, no. Hadley: Oh, not yet. Oh, you had to actually take the exam again. Okay. 

[00:14:28] Toju: [00:14:28] So take the exams for an art students. And they said, I'm not an art student. I'm a science student

[00:14:36] day. Hadley: You get over there.

[00:14:42] Toju: Yeah, it was just a bit, it was almost getting late, you know, I'm like, I can't wait another year and you know, all that. Um, so my uncle, one of my uncles was a lecturer, you know, and I tried getting into the mass communication department and I couldn't get it. And he was a chair of sociology and he just got me into...