If you haven't listened to Part One make sure you head back an episode and listen to it first.

In this episode Craig shares his powerful story of returning to Invercargill after leaving the Exclusive Brethren, recounting the heartache of family rejection and a poignant encounter with his little sister. We explore the deep complexities of healing from religious trauma and the challenges faced when leaving a high-control community, emphasising that healing is about gaining freedom from the past, not erasing it. Craig sheds light on the fear and surveillance tactics employed by these communities against those who choose to leave and the cultural adjustments required to adapt to mainstream society. Reflecting on his journey of self-discovery and the importance of personal identity, Craig’s insights highlight the need for sensitivity and respect when engaging with those who’ve left insular religious backgrounds.

Who Is Craig?

Craig Hoyle grew up in Invercargill within the New Zealand Exclusive Brethren. Separated from public society, he attended Brethren-only schooling and worked in his family's tyre shop. After facing interrogations and conversion therapy for his sexuality, he was excommunicated from the Brethren and lost his family in 2009. Today he is a news director for the Sunday Star-Times. He has worked for newsrooms such as TV3 and RadioLive, and behind the scenes on current affairs shows including 60 Minutes and 3rd Degree. He lives in Auckland, New Zealand.

Connect With Us

• You can connect with Craig via Instagram or LinkedIn
• Grab Craig's book 'Excommunicated'

• You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

00:58

Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome back, craig. Thanks for joining me again.

01:42 - Craig (Guest)

Hi, sam, thanks for having me back back.

01:47 - Sam (Host)

Craig, thanks for joining me again. Hey, sam, thanks for having me back. I, uh, I, at the end of the last episode that we recorded, I just there was a part of me that was like this felt far too rushed at the end of it and I was like, and I had the second half of the book to read and I knew that I would have so many more questions after reading the second half of the book. So I am thankful that you are happy to come back and do a part two with me. Okay, so, obviously, so, there is a part. There's so many questions that I want to go with.

02:17

But there was one particular part in the second half of the book that I to say that it tugged on my heartstrings is probably like a mild I. I was like, oh my gosh, this is like heartbreaking. Um, and it's the moment with your little sister, and I'm assuming when I say that you probably know the section where you are trying to talk to your grandmother and your dad comes around to the house with your little sister and you lock eyes, and so I'm wondering whether you are happy to talk about that a little bit and what that was like for you, because, as a reader, I'm reading this going fuck, this is heartbreaking. Like to to read that. Yeah, what was that like for you?

03:11 - Craig (Guest)

yeah, so that was um. I'd been out of the breather in an exclusive breathing for a couple of years at that point and I'd gone back to in cargo, which is where I'd grown up and um.

03:21

At that point I think I was still hopeful that there could be some kind of contact with my family and I think, for anyone who comes out of environments like this, it takes a long time to give up, because there's there's always that bit of hope. You know that maybe they'll come around or maybe they will have a change of heart, or you know there's.

03:44

It's really difficult to give up hope yeah and in this case, I had gone around to see my grandma when I was back in the cargo and because the last time I'd seen her was saying goodbye on her doorstep, when we just like hugged and cried for 20 or 30 minutes and, um, and she wouldn't open the door. When I went back, and I knew she was there, and not long after I had arrived on her doorstep, um, my dad showed up. Um, and it's one of those things that they they hear that you're back in town and word goes around pretty quickly and I can. What I imagine happened is that my dad had got on the phone to my grandma and said that I was in town and and not to open the door to me, um, and anyway, my dad showed up and he was ordering me off my grandma's property and I dug in because I was like, if my grandma doesn't want me here, I want to hear it from her, not from you. And so we were having a spirit of disagreement, I suppose.

05:03 - Sam (Host)

A robust conversation.

05:07 - Craig (Guest)

Yeah, on my grandma's front yard, all while I assumed my grandma's hiding inside, maybe listening, but I still don't know and as my dad was sort of berating me on the front lawn, I could see the passenger door of his truck open and someone got out, and that was my little sister, who I noticed sort of between the bushes, where I could see her, but my dad couldn't, and she would have been 10 or 11 at this point, but my dad couldn't and she would have been 10 or 11 at this point, and she had just she'd crept up to a place where she could see and hear everything that was going on, but my dad didn't know she was there.

05:56

And so I was in this sort of strange situation when my dad was coming at me from one side but then, sort of over his shoulder, I could see my little sister and and she was, she was sort of mouthing at me at the same time as my dad was talking to me and, and I could see that she was mouthing I still love you, yeah, um, and I mean, the difficulty for me, of course, is that, um, my dad was looking at, and so it was difficult for me to reply or say anything, and so I was sort of waiting.

06:30

I had to wait for my dad to look away so that I could mouth I love you too to my sister, and sort of. There was this unspoken sort of communication, I guess, with my sister that my dad was unaware of, and it was such a, you know, my grandma wouldn't open the door and my dad was standing there shouting at me, threatening to call the police if I didn't go away. And you know, there was this tremendous hostility from my family and there's my little sister saying, hey, I still love you and I still care about you, and for me that was a tiniest of windows, I suppose, to keep my hope alive that there was still something there with my family.

07:18

And of course this was now 13 years ago that we're talking so my sister is now well and truly grown up, and um haven't seen or heard anything from her since yeah, what is it like for you thinking back on that memory well when I think about it now, I think I was two years out of the brethren and when you leave a group like the brethren, you think that you adjust faster than you do.

07:56

And I remember someone saying to me that it would take about two years to adjust to life in the outside world. And I thought, don't be silly, it won't take me that long. Adjust to life in the outside world. And I thought don't be silly, it won't take me that long.

08:07

and and now here I am after 15 years and I don't know whether it will ever be possible yeah to fully adjust um and or more, to the point I don't know whether I'll ever live a life that's free of the impact of that trauma yeah um, and that's not to say I don't have a good life and that my life isn't fulfilling and worthwhile, and so on.

08:32

But yeah, um, with all of us doesn't matter what the trauma has been, it impacts who we are and and so I guess, when I look back on that memory, I think of how fresh it all was for me and my dad and my little sister, um, and I don't know that an interaction like that would really be possible now, and too much time has passed yeah yeah, I think, uh, when we talk about trauma, it's obviously, you know, getting free of it, quote unquote, is not really like, irrespective of like what has caused the trauma, whether it, you know, be escaping a cult or like being in a car accident and everything in between um, to be free of it would be to like erase it, which is impossible.

09:33 - Sam (Host)

And so I think you know it's uh, oh gosh.

09:37

I hate cliches, but um, there's a cliche, that's coming to mind that, like it summarizes it, which is that healing doesn't mean that the damage never existed. It means that it no longer controls your life, like around, um, you know, if trauma was erasing the event, I'm like 76 years too late because, like you can't do that right. So, um, yeah, I think, I mean I have spoken to a lot of people who have left various forms of fundamental groups, and I mean even two years is you know, that's a tiny, tiny form of you know time. So you know, I imagine, yeah, that that hope at that time would have still been fresh. How long did that hope stick around for?

10:44 - Craig (Guest)

Oh, that's a good question, um, so for me, I kept, so I stopped calling my parents, because calling and having the um, like the rejection of someone hanging up on you or, um, saying something harsh to you is, um, it's a lot to deal with, and so I started, probably every year or two, I would write my mum a letter letting her know how I was, and I never, never, had a reply.

11:17

The thing is when you, when you come out of the bridge and you don't hear anything from your immediate family, but every couple of years someone else comes out of the virgin, and then they, and then they tell you the update. Yeah, they give you the updates, and I know of so many people who, who, come out and then they're like oh you know, I know your family didn't reply to any of your letters, but but they read them all and they talked about them and and so it's been. Really, it's strange for me because I'm I know that my parents are aware of what's happening in my life, whether it's been me that's told them or whether, um, they've read about it in the news, and because I I work in journalism and a lot of the work that I do is in public eye and so I mean that's another thing, like on my LinkedIn page, um, where mostly I'm just posting about the journalism that I do fully half of the people you know you can see who looked at.

12:15

Yes, the weird aspect of LinkedIn, hey, is like such such viewed your profile yeah, exactly and and fully, half of the people who look at my profile on LinkedIn are exclusive brethren, um, and so I'm sort of I am aware that they are aware of me, and of course, the book has um, um, accentuated that. But, um, I think for me, for for probably 10, 12 years, I felt some kind of not duty or obligation to let my mum know how I was, but I knew that she still cared, I knew that she still loved me, and so, to me, letting her know how I was doing was you, you know, the decent thing to do, rather than you know I didn't.

13:09 - Sam (Host)

I wasn't expecting to get anything out of it but, I, just thought that she would probably appreciate, knowing how I was yeah, um, which is really interesting because actually part of like I'm saying this out loud as I'm thinking it, because I've not pre-thought this but as you're talking now and if I think back on, like reading the book, there is almost like an overarching sense that you didn't seem angry coming out, and so I don't know whether that's just the way that you wrote the book, um, or whether anger was just not a dominant emotion for you coming out.

13:56 - Craig (Guest)

I think I definitely experienced anger, okay, um, but the anger for me would have been driven by a sense of injustice. But the anger for me would have been driven by a sense of injustice rather than anger for anger's sake. And I was very, very aware when writing the book, like I wanted to put it into context and the more I learn about my parents and what their lives have been like, you know, it's hard to be angry yeah, um, and you know, I suppose the primary emotion I feel towards my parents now is pity rather than anger. Um, when I think about the things that make me angry now, it's about the injustices that are still happening to other people, um, and like you can't be. You can't be angry about your trauma indefinitely, because after a while, the only person who's paying for that is you, absolutely yeah and um, and I've always been aware, I suppose, that when you get angry it undercuts your argument.

15:10

Um, and for me, like right from the beginning I mean, I first went on you know, there's a documentary about me a matter of weeks after my final excommunication and, and I was always aware that if I came across as angry or like having lost control of my emotions in any way, that that, um, you know, it's hard to be, it's hard to be taken rationally in the same way if you look can, rationally, in the same way if you look like you're spinning out, yeah, and so I suppose that was always. But then this raises the question, of course, of how much of your emotional expression is based on how you think it's going to be perceived and your wider argument prosecuting against the trauma that happened.

16:02 - Sam (Host)

You know, you, you tie yourself up in knots asking yourself these questions yeah, yeah, and I guess you know it is difficult, because there was a period of time where you weren't, um, I guess you know, processing, leaving and processing the excommunication, uh, on a very private level, right, because there was reporters and documentaries and you know, and so the one moment where I, like it wasn't necessarily stated but that I felt anger, was around the medical professional in the whole like documentary, news, journalistic aspect of the book. And so what was it like for you to work with reporters and journalists around something that was not something that happened like a decade ago, like you're living it right now.

17:06 - Craig (Guest)

It's fresh and real and raw yeah, I found it to be a really positive experience. Well, it was life-changing for me because it led to me becoming a journalist myself. Yeah, and what I found you, my experience of that is that the journalists that I've worked with were also motivated by a strong sense of justice and they were very sort of clear about the fact that an injustice had happened. And you know, it wasn't their case necessarily to prosecute for an outcome, but it was their responsibility to draw attention to what had happened and put the facts in front of the public. Yeah, um, and you know, ultimately it wasn't, um, it wasn't me who took legal action or disciplinary action against the doctor who had prescribed me hormonal suppressants to treat my sexuality. And this is, you know, the brethren see me as being someone. You know I'm responsible for what subsequently happened to that doctor. So he was reprimanded and barred from practicing as a GP, which meant that he was unable to keep prescribing to people in the church the way he had been.

18:37

And the thing is, I didn't take that action. The New South Wales Healthcare Complaints Commission, or whatever the name of the body is, took that action. And, you know, after we were so, when I was filming with a TV crew from Channel 7, we were chased through the streets by brethren, bumper to bumper, and you know I didn't prosecute that. The New South Wales Police took action over that and laid charges and it always amused, not amused, but I sort of always thought it was a bit funny that I'm always seen as a bad guy, having taken the church on for these things where actually they have done things that are wrong. They have done things that are wrong, they have done things that are illegal and the police charge them for doing something that's illegal and then suddenly that's somehow my fault for making the church look bad and it's like, well, maybe you should have followed the law in the first place.

19:42 - Sam (Host)

I mean maybe, like you would think that's a very rational way to think of it, right? I mean, like I think the um, the story where you were chased one sounded absolutely bloody, terrifying, um. But two, I think really highlights a lot of people think that when you leave communities such as this or when you are excommunicated, that like that's it and it's done. And I think, uh, perhaps there are some people out there who don't realize that it's not quite as clear cut as that and that in some instances it can leave the person who is outside of the community in a really vulnerable and perhaps even unsafe situation because of that. And so, yeah, I'm curious what it felt like for you in that car being chased.

20:52 - Craig (Guest)

I was confused. Yeah.

20:54

And also scared. This was, you know, bumper to bumper, being chased by a black four-wheel drive at very high speeds through the back roads of you know, starting from Irmington, which is where the Brethren's main hall is, 17 kilometres they chased us for. And the strangest thing, the most frightening thing, was not knowing what they wanted to do. And you know, I mean, we knew that the Brethren well, I knew that the Brethren would do. You know, I mean, we knew that the breathing well, I knew that the breathing would do. You know, they have this very much the ends justify the means, and that they will do. You know, whatever it takes. And if the, if the world leader says to you, make this happen, whatever it takes, then how far you take that depends entirely on, but how extreme you're willing to be with that.

21:52

Yeah, um, and you know, I had, um, you know, one of my cousins who the world leader said I'd, you know, keep her in the church, whatever it takes. And that came um to them trying to. You know, when they physically stop you from leaving a house or they keep you somewhere, they take away, and when you take a step back and you look at these things, it's like, well, actually that's kidnapping, that's you know. And if they will, if they will kidnap, if they will stalk, if they will do all of these things, where is the line? And the frightening thing is that I don't know where the line is for the person that's chasing me, and no one really knows where the line is because it's not defined. And so in that moment and I remember writing my diaries at the time it was like completely plausible that we could end up dead and dumped in the harbour or that there could be an accident.

22:51

Um, whether intentional or deliberate, or just purely from the speeds that we were going. Um, and the the brazenness of it was the other thing that got me the fact that they were willing to chase us right up to the police station. And then, when eventually we left the police station, there was another carload of them waiting to chase us from the police station. And this is very much a reflection, I think, of their belief that God's law, which in their eyes is brethren law, is more important than the laws of the land, the laws of Parliament. And I'm still, I'm still a bit confused about what they were trying to do. Now, what were they going to do if they caught us? I don't know.

23:52 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean, part of me probably thinks they don't even know, like yeah, I mean I'm curious, though, because my brain goes like how do you not then live in absolute terror and fear every day that somebody is like looking for you or like spying on you or watching you, or like what were those like weeks and months after that happened, like, and how did you not just live in absolute fear every day?

24:26 - Craig (Guest)

Oh, I knew they were watching. Okay, so I was living with um some friends of mine in imbricago and for weeks there was this like car with tinted windows parked outside their house like watching super subtle so subtle.

24:43

But the thing is that I didn't even I didn't even question that because I was like, oh yeah, it's just the brethren doing what the brethren do, like they're just having a way stalk. But of course, my friends I was living with were really freaked out because they were like this is not normal and I was like, oh yeah, it's just the brethren watching us, like you know that's, I'm not surprised. Uh, I don't, I don't know, I didn't. Um, when you've just come from an environment like that and you know how they behave, when you see them behaving in that way, it's not surprising. And it's not.

25:27

I mean, it is threatening and it is scary, but it is how you would expect them to be behaving yeah um, so you, you know I was used to being followed, I was used to being watched, I was used to um getting phone calls, um, quite abusive phone calls from people in the church, usually anonymously. You know, I got one phone call late on a Friday night warning me that I was under observation. But what does that even mean? Yeah, and I still, you know you get these weird, you get weird requests from people on facebook and, and it's really hard to work out whether this is legitimately someone from inside the church asking for help or whether it's someone trying to get into your private social media, into your private social media, to report back on what you're up to.

26:33

You know, yeah, um, and you know the brethren have used um private investigators and they have spied on former members and, um, and this is all being reported on public knowledge, um, and they have run portfolios. You know, like they keep put that old school spy shit. You know, like they do keep dossiers on former members and you know reports of what they're up to and so on. And you know, I don't doubt that somewhere there's a dossier about me, but I doubt there's anything interesting in it. Like, yeah, I think people say, are they watching you now and I'm like I don't know um, maybe yeah, um but the thing um.

27:15

So I live in a part of Auckland now which is near to where the main brethren um hall is, um, I drive past it all the time actually. And it was a big thing for me, um, when I was looking at where I could possibly buy a house and and I was very, very resistant to moving to this part of auckland, um, because it's back into absolute berthman central, um, and I thought if I go there, I'm going to be really near, it'll be much easier for them to see me and to watch me and all of these things. And eventually um went backwards and forwards on it and then I thought, you know what? Fuck it. Yeah, why should where I live and how I live my life be determined by them? Um, and so you know, I sometimes I see them at the shops and I drive past their church every day and I fill up at the petrol station next to their church and I just think you know what, if they are watching me, if they do want to follow me, they're not going to see anything interesting, like I weed my garden and I go to work and I go to the gym yeah, yeah

28:31

um, and you know they're not going to learn a huge amount about me that's not already out there in the public domain, um, but I'm very yeah, it's interesting. I'm very aware that there are all of these brethren watching me, definitely online if not in person, and it's sort of a strange. You're thinking about what messages you can send to people and you're posting sort of not just for the public, but also you're aware that there are these people who are, um, they might be questioning or they might be hostile or they might be just nosy yeah um, but you never know when something that you say or something that you do could have an impact on one of those people who is watching or listening, and so you know.

29:30

Even if it's not at a formal church level, I'm very, very aware I always have a strong feeling of being watched yeah, and and does that make you like strategic in what you do post in terms of like?

29:49 - Sam (Host)

it sounds like you're posting for almost like a variety of different audiences. In terms of like are they people spying or are they people who are potentially trying to find a way out or an avenue out, or are they just like random people who are not connected to the brethren at all?

30:13 - Craig (Guest)

yeah, I think it's a bit of everything and um, also bearing in mind that the majority of my online connections have nothing to do with the brethren yeah and so most of my friends um. You know that's sort of interested, but not not super involved interested, but not really caring yeah, and so I think there's um, there's also power and just living your life yeah and to be out there.

30:45

You know, I do. You know the various bits of journalism that I work on and one of the things I'm responsible for is, um, the food content that we do for the paper. And so I'm out, you know, writing about restaurants and meeting chefs and all those kinds of things and, I think, just posting about those things where I'm out just living quite an ordinary life and having my career yeah and and even things like posting about my future garden and all these.

31:16

You know there's massive because these groups have such a um, they build you up as being such bogeymen and up as being such bogeymen and I think there's massive power in just being out there living a very ordinary life.

31:33 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, not a life of debauchery or like anything like that not that I'd be posting that on.

31:39

Facebook anyway. I mean you could, but they'll probably get restricted fairly quickly. Um, I mean in terms of just like you know, living your life. What was those first and like? I'm conscious that, like that integrating into like mainstream secular society is not going to be a quick process, but what were those first few years? Like for you to try and start just building some sort of idea of what normal life could look like. And I'm also curious what the weirdest thing was that you didn't know how to do that. You were expected to.

32:25 - Craig (Guest)

33:04

I spent most of that year traveling overseas, um, and so um Europe, north America, australia, um, all sorts of places, and just like went backpacking and kind of disappeared, um, and I think that process of seeing all of these different countries and all of these different ways of living really shifted my thinking on coming out of the breather and then you have to live your life this way.

33:40

But I saw that there were so many different ways to live your life and there were also all these people in all these different places who had these struggles that were, you know, just as great as mine or greater, you know, going through um the balkans, for instance, and you know, it's only what 10 years since the war had ended and there were all of these sort of terrible impacts of the war through these places and you know, don't walk there because landmines haven't been cleared yet. And a lot of those things put my own trauma into perspective and you realize that everybody is carrying trauma of some kind and that there is no one way of seeing the world yeah um, and so that had a huge impact on me.

34:34

And then I was very, very lucky to have been taken in by these um. So Sarah Hall was the main journalist who had um. She had told my story for 60 minutes and she became like a mother figure to me in the outside world. And um I, when I came back to auckland, my first flat was just around the corner from where she lived with her husband, grant and, and so she was massively influential in teaching me about life on the outside and popular culture and all of these things. And then I was working in media very quickly.

35:16

So I started studying at uni and I mean university was mind-blowing. That had such a huge impact on me. That process of being actively encouraged to challenge and question things. Um, it was just. You know, that was heaven for me, having come from a place where questions weren't allowed um. And then I started working at TV3, which was one of the or at that time was one of the main um newsrooms in New Zealand. And so within the space of two years I'd gone from never having watched TV to working in a TV newsroom. And so that turnaround like I didn't appreciate how massively my life was changing at the time. Yeah.

36:06

But when I look back on it, massively my life was changing at the time, yeah, but when I look back on it I still don't really know sort of how it happened or how I adjusted, because it was such a massive shift. And I think that had a huge impact as well, because, working in media, working in journalism, so many things came through the newsroom and you had to very quickly learn about them. And then I was surrounded by people who were very keen to educate me as well, like one of the senior producers at TV3. I was horrified one day when I didn't know who David Bowie was, oh boy. And so he took it upon himself to like you're right, everything I needed to know about David Bowie, and which songs and which movies and so on, and he gave me a David Bowie cheat sheet so that I could learn about it, because he just thought it was a crime that I didn't know.

37:14 - Sam (Host)

Oh yeah, was learning all of the like, just like the music and the movies and the TV shows and everything that is part of, I guess, popular culture. Was that exciting or was that overwhelming, or both, perhaps at different stages yeah, a bit of everything.

37:35 - Craig (Guest)

I mean, it's one of those things you can learn. You can learn about pop culture, but unless you experience it at the time, yeah you know, like I had friends who would say well, these are the, these are the movies and these are the songs that people our age would have been into as kids and you can go back and sort of learn those things retrospectively, um, but they don't have the same emotional connection.

38:05

Yeah, um, and yeah it's. It's interesting. I mean, it takes a while for you to realize, um, that actually everybody has different tastes um and that when someone tells you these are the movies of the 80s and 90s and these are the songs, like are the movies of the 80s and 90s and these are the songs like that's your take on what the movies of the 80s you know, yeah, um, and nobody, nobody, has a complete experience of pop culture.

38:39

It's unique for everyone. And there comes a certain point at which you're just like, well, I know enough now. Yeah, I know, I know enough to carry myself in conversation and you don't have to have watched every movie or listen to every song, like it's fine to just be like never heard of it, not into it, yeah, but yeah, it takes, it takes a very long time to catch up on that learned experience yeah, I imagine.

39:24 - Sam (Host)

Yeah were there moments, uh, where it just, uh, it felt like it was too much, or was it did it feel manageable? Most of the time because of the people that you had around you?

39:41 - Craig (Guest)

it's an interesting question, I think, for me. I was a sponge and I was also surviving, yeah, and I knew that there was no backstop and there was no going back, and so the only way was forward. And I think there were the sort of there was the impact of coming out of the bread room, but there were also those very ordinary things like can I pay my rent? Can I finish my assignment? Can I, can I eat this week? All of those things, um, and I remember, and there's so there's a group of us in auckland who had all come out of bed and more or less around the same time and we used to catch up a lot and sort of talk about things.

40:28

Um, and I remember one night we were having dinner together. It was at my place, at a terrible flat, but we had some good times there and we were sitting around talking about you know, it's God, it's hard, like trying to find a job and trying to do this and trying to do that and it's all. These things are so hard after you leave the bedroom. And one of my neighbours from the next street, over same age as us, but she'd never been in the brethren and she was sort of listening to us all talking and then she interrupted and she's like you realize that all of these things that you're talking about are things that everyone our age is struggling with right now. Like this is not about, like leaving the brethren isn't what made these things hard, like it's just hard for everyone in their 20s yeah, like a universal struggle almost yeah, yeah, yeah, and like your 20s are shit absolutely.

41:29 - Sam (Host)

I mean you are thrust into adulthood and you have no idea how to adult.

41:34 - Craig (Guest)

So yeah, um, and and so for me that's always been a thing like being careful not to lump too much of my experience or my trauma or whatever I'm experiencing right now, not to keep lumping that back onto my past, because at a certain point there's a baseline where we've all got trauma and we've all had shit go on and we can either let it define us or it can just be another piece of the puzzle that's us, and so I mean this all sounds bit um ironic, having this written a book about it.

42:23 - Sam (Host)

I mean, were there moments, um and and I recognize when I ask this question that everybody is really different but um, did you ever have any moments where you were like man? Did I make the right decision?

42:39 - Craig (Guest)

no, um, I knew, I always knew that I'd made the right decision and I never thought about going back. Um, no regrets. Yeah, um, and I think for me it was because I could see that there was no future for me in that environment. Yeah, um, and I think, like when I left, my leaving was to do with me, probably more to do with me not personally fitting in that environment, and then the the longer I was out of it and the more perspective I had, the stronger my judgment of the injustice became okay, I'm curious, uh, because about something?

43:27 - Sam (Host)

because, um, it didn't. It wasn't a huge part of the latter half of the book which I was really interested about. But I'm curious what it was like for you, because you had been raised in this environment that was condemning of your sexuality, and so I'm curious what it was like for you and what that journey was like to reach a point of affirmation and celebration around being a gay man.

44:06 - Craig (Guest)

I was very fortunate to be surrounded by people that were very supportive of who I was, were very supportive of who I was and, to a certain extent, because I had gone through that process of coming out as gay when I was still in the brethren and in the process of leaving the brethren, there was never any doubt for me about the fact that I was gay and that that's who I was, and that was certainly at that point one of the cornerstones of my identity. And I think, you know, as time has gone on, my sexuality has become less of a defining feature of who I am, but at that point it was an overwhelming feature of who I was, because everything else in my life had been sacrificed because of this thing yeah and so, of course, that thing overshadowed everything else.

45:01

Um, and you know, and I remember um, someone saying to me like you know, your sexuality feels like the biggest thing about you right now, but it won't define you forever. And what did that look like? Um, yeah, it's interesting. It took a while to be able to date properly but.

45:26

I don't know that that was specifically related to being gay because, coming from the brethren, your, your ability to form relationships or your understanding of how relationships were formed was so warped, I suppose. Yeah, you know every person in the brethren. The only way that you went down that track of a romantic connection was if you planned on marrying the person and spending the rest of your life with them. Um, and and when that's been your baseline, it's difficult not to go into potential romantic connections with an off-putting intensity. Uh, yep, and, and so it took a while for me to work through that. Um, that's all sort of a bit a bit hazy now, um, but I think my first long-term relationship would have been three or four years after I'd come out of the brethren yeah um.

46:39 - Sam (Host)

I mean, in some ways it being hazy is kind of a good like that's a nice sign, right, but it's like not, um, you know it's part of your identity but it doesn't have to be a defining factor of your, like, your day-to-day life, um and so, um, sometimes haziness is a nice sign, I guess yeah, and I think when it came to the book, um, like, there's an element, those experiences of learning how to date and all those there's, those experiences are universal.

47:20 - Craig (Guest)

Like everybody has that awkward period where they start dating and having relationships, and, um, and so Papa Collins were keen to focus, and much more closely on things, specifically as they related to leaving the bhutan um and um.

47:39

Interestingly, there was more written about it in the earlier drafts and that all got cut out right um maybe you need a sequel all that was just about like keeping it tight yeah um, and there are all of these sort of side roads that you can go off that are, that are interesting, and I but I I say this to to journalists now and I'm subbing their stories at work and it's like you know, all these side roads might be interesting, but you can't go up these side roads at the expense of losing sight of the overall journey yeah um, and I think for me, like you know, I could, could have written chapters about, um, sex and sexuality and dating and relationships, um, but I don't know that those things would have been specific to coming out of the brethren.

48:38

Um, but it just depends how long you want to spend analyzing it really I mean, maybe there's another book in there, just like just a thought.

48:49 - Sam (Host)

But, um, what I mean? What was it like for you to write the book? Was it like healing? Was it therapeutic? What was it like for you a?

48:59 - Craig (Guest)

lot of work yeah, I wrote an e-book and that was enough, let alone like a whole book so it wasn't so much my own story that was difficult as going through other people's stories and diving into other people's trauma, because I'm, like, I'm well acquainted with my own trauma yeah this is a hello darkness.

49:27

My old friend, um things, for instance, like you know, talking to my great auntie who's who's now 85, and the polite thing in conversation is you figure out where the sensitive points are and you don't poke them like that's just polite.

49:53

And so it was a very different experience, um, interviewing some of these people, interviewing people like my great auntie and and sitting down and like going looking for those sensitive places and then just poking them and digging into them and um, and so that was a very peculiar sort of unique experience, because it's one thing to talk to people that you're close to. It's another thing entirely to interview them. Yeah, and for me, painting that wider picture of the family and I really felt the weight of representing our family as well, because for a lot of these people you know, like my grandpa and my great grandparents and so on, what I wrote about them in the book is probably the only public record that there will be of their lives and who they were. Yeah, and I was particularly, um particularly aware when I was writing about things that weren't my own experiences, when I'm saying this is what happened in the 80s, or this is what happened in the 60s or the 50s, um, and when you're saying this is how it was at this point, but I wasn't there.

51:20

But there's still a lot of people alive who were there yeah so one of my biggest fears was, and still is, that someone will come along and say, no, you got this wrong.

51:30

Um, yeah, and the flip side to that is it's very validating for me when um people in their 70s and 80s come along and say, well, I've done this really relatable, and this is just how I remember it yeah gosh, what a special moment that must be well, it's just a relief usually I mean I'm sitting here going, oh, what a beautiful like poignant moment, and you're like, oh my gosh, thank fuck well, it's exactly like, especially, you know, if you get something wrong, um, and, and doubtless there are things that are wrong in the book, you know, it's just.

52:16

You know, people come back and correct all sorts of things and, like, dozens and dozens of people read the draft of the book, yeah, um, but people come back and correct things like the kind of stone that the building was made out of and all these details that no one else will know or care about yeah but someone someone did notice that and someone else would have noticed that yeah um, and, and then you have situations where people remember the same thing differently, um, and this comes up especially with memories around trauma and figuring out how to walk that line of saying how something happened when people have very different memories of it yeah, and then someone says, well, I don't remember it this way, I remember it that way.

53:13

And then you're like it can't possibly have been that way because of these dates and the things like yeah, but it's a real challenging thing when you not that you call someone out. But I mean, I don't really think it was that way yeah, yeah, it's.

53:33 - Sam (Host)

Uh, I mean, everything we know about trauma is that it's both perceptive and subjective meaning, like what is traumatic for one is not necessarily for another, and also it's all about the lens that you are experiencing it, which, I guess, is that difference between what is factually actually happening and the way that someone is experiencing what is happening, and those two things don't always align, and it's, I imagine, it would have been a really tricky balance, um, to try and document other people's stories in a way that was real and honest and authentic, without pissing a bunch of people off. Essentially, um, that's a tricky balance to to take.

54:24 - Craig (Guest)

Um yeah, and so for me, I tried as much as possible to go to source materials, the things that were recorded and written at the time yeah um, and then sort of fill in the gaps from there and like the one thing you can't, you can't challenge or question is people's emotions around memories, um. So they might not get the dates right and they might not fully remember who was involved or exactly what happened, but they remember how they felt yeah and they know how they feel about it now.

55:04

56:07 - Sam (Host)

yeah and it's all of that, like that emotional record that I think is as important as the factual record yeah, absolutely yeah oh, I mean it like and I guess, like I remember when I started reading your book and I was like gosh, to like to write a memoir is one thing. To write a multi-generational memoir is like an entirely different story, essentially, and an entirely different type of pressure and responsibility. So, yeah, generally I like to finish these episodes with like a bit of encouragement for people. But I want to finish with asking a different type of question. But I want to sort of give like a preamble as to why I'm asking this question.

57:01

Because there is a really interesting part in the book where you essentially talk about the fact that when other members escape or leave the community, that that doesn't just magically heal those relationships right, particularly if they have already been fractured relationships from when you were in. And that stuck out to me because I think that there are a lot of. And that stuck out to me because I think that there are a lot of like myths and misconceptions about what it is like to leave and then to interact with other leavers. And so my question that I would like to end on is more so like what would you want people to know who are potentially interacting with other people who have left, the exclusive brethren, and what would you say to them? So the people who are so, not the people who have left, but the people who are interacting with those who have left what would you say to those people?

58:10 - Craig (Guest)

So people who are inside the brethren talking to people on the outside, you mean?

58:14 - Sam (Host)

No, so like me, so like people who have inside the brethren. Talking to people on the outside, you mean no, so like me, so like people who have not left the exclusive brethren but are interacting and who might have like relationships with, who might have friends who have escaped or colleagues who have escaped, and and so what you would say to them about what they should know, about those interactions and building relationship with people who have left, it's a tricky question.

58:44 - Craig (Guest)

I think one of the things that is challenging is being treated like a freak show or being treated like a novelty yeah, show, or being treated like a novelty yeah, um, and I mean that. You know, I I'm, I've got used to my story being like rolled out as a party trick by people because it's sad, like it's just this real out there story, and then like oh, craig's got like incredible story, like yeah, oh, craig, you tell it, you tell it. And I was like no, I don't want to.

59:18 - Sam (Host)

I've already done that.

59:19 - Craig (Guest)

It's in a book yeah um, so yeah, I think also meeting people where they are because everyone's unique and there's no universality to this experience and how I have chosen to live my life is very different to how other people have chosen to live their lives. And I think also when you meet people who have come from a group like the brethren, like I wish some people would take it upon themselves to go away and like do some of their own research, because it's not, it's not my job to educate you on every aspect of the brethren and who they are in their history. And so I think a lot of people who have come out of groups like the brethren end up in this place, where they are just like perpetually answering questions and perpetually educating and like just constantly having to explain what, to them, are the most basic aspects of what their life has been. Yeah.

And you talk to other people who have come out of the breather and the conversations that you have you might be discussing.

Like an example, I drove past, um, we drove past the main brethren hall on a saturday recently I was with my partner and I drove past and I looked in and I was like, oh, they're having a fellowship meeting. And my partner's like how could you possibly know that? And I was like, well, it's a Saturday and it's lunchtime. This is not the time their service would normally be on a Saturday and the men in the car park are wearing white shirts and white shirts are only worn on Sundays and at fellowship meetings and there are more cars in that car park than I know there would normally be, for how many people live in Auckland and all about all of these things.

But I drove past and I looked in and I immediately was like, oh yeah, that means any other form of brethren. If I had said that to them they would have immediately understood it. Oh yeah, of course. But when you say these things to people who don't have all that context like what for me was just an offhand remark driving past, then took the rest of our car ride home to explain how I knew that. Yeah.

Yeah, home to explain yeah, how I knew that. Yeah, yeah, it's. It sounds like a like well, I mean, it's an, an emotional energy, but also like a level of exhaustion. That, I think, is, I think that's really important for people to know and that's, you know, it's part of um, what I actually say to a lot of therapists, which is, like, don't expect your clients to educate you on like, on where they've come from, like, if you have a client who has said that they're from the exclusive brethren, you go and you do your research because, um, I, it's one of the core tenets of like.

I never want my clients to feel like they need to educate me on those things, and so I think that's really helpful information and advice almost for people in terms of like, just interacting with people who have left different types of fundamental or faith communities is to not expect them to expel that emotional and mental energy to educate you, because, also, not everybody is probably going to be able to explain it the way that you do, and also there are not everybody's going to write a book about their story, and so take advantage of the people who have written their books and their story in a book and things like that and use those as like forms of education so that, um, you know the people that you're interacting with are not having to do the educating for you, um, on their own story and their own trauma and their own pain. So, yeah, I think that's a really like a really good thing for people to remember. Yeah, thank you so much for joining me again. I really appreciate it.

It's been a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me back.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.