How can you create psychological safety in the workplace?

In the latest episode of the Happier at Work podcast I had an insightful conversation with Jacqui Jagger, a leadership and mindset coach with a wealth of experience in operations, HR, and learning and development roles.

We explore topics such as creating high-performing teams through collaboration rather than individual competition, the significance of recognising and meeting individual needs in the workplace, and the keys to achieving happiness at work through meaningful work and authenticity.

Join us in discovering how embracing psychological safety, acknowledging individual strengths, and offering a balance of challenge and support can transform your work culture and enhance team dynamics.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• The challenges she faced as a leader and the valuable lessons she learned along the way.
• The importance of balancing results-driven leadership with employee well-being
• Fostering a psychologically safe environment for teams.
• Creating high-performing teams through collaboration rather than individual competition
• Embrace psychological safety, acknowledge individual strengths, and offer a balance of challenge and support.

Connect with Jacqui

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Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

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Previous Episodes:

Episode 182: Building Better Bosses with Debra Corey

Episode 104: The Managers Dilemma with Irial O’Farrell

Episode 45: Helen Joy on First Time Managers

Mentioned in this episode:

Imposter Identity

Imposter Identity

Jackie, you're so welcome to the happier at work podcast. I know we've been talking about this for a while, so so thrilled to have you as my guest today. And we even met in person. At the time of this recording, it was about coming up on 2 weeks ago, but it's so nice to actually meet in person in Tenerife and connect. Do you wanna let people know a little bit about you, your background, and how you got to doing what you're doing today?

Of course. Thank you so much for inviting me on. I'm really excited for the conversation. So, yeah, potted history of me. I am a leadership and mindset coach now, but during my employed career, I worked in a variety of operations and HR stroke l and d roles. And my passion for leadership really came from I was promoted in a fast growing entrepreneurial business in my late twenties and was very much flying by the seat of my pants. And I have always been fascinated by human behaviour, by what makes people tick. So from those very early stages, for me, there was almost that kind of intellectual challenge of how can I be the best leader I can be? And that has really kind of stuck with me throughout my career.

And I was fortunate enough to work with an exec coach at that relatively early stage, and I recognise that isn't the case for everybody. But for me, my real passion is working with people in their first senior leadership role at that stage where there is so much going on, so many different pulls and pushes and draws and challenges and overwhelm is really common and knocks to confidence are really common, so it really kind of combines those leadership and mindset elements that I really love working with.

Brilliant. And can I just give a shout out to the post that you do on LinkedIn? I think they're so spot on. If anyone is not following Jackie, definitely go and check out her post on LinkedIn. Like, it's you have a way of explaining things that I can't even I can't even articulate myself. Like, it's just such you you hit the nail on the head all the time, and you explain it in such down to earth terms, I think. But something I would love to explore, Jackie, if you're open to it, is any experiences that you've had of of basically being that bad boss, you know, making all the mistakes. What mistakes did you make as a leader?

Oh, I made so many mistakes. And anybody that tells you that they've led for any length of time and hasn't, then they are either lacking the self awareness or struggling to own those mistakes. So I think a lot of the mistakes I made are pretty common. And in particular for me, there was a real drive around pace for seeking results, which often comes from that pressure from wanting to prove yourself, from wanting to be able to deliver in a role. And that sometimes came at the expense of considering the people and considering that opportunity to to bring people with me. So I set the bar high for myself. I set the bar high for others. And there's certainly times when I look back and I recognize that I placed results above people, and that's probably the the biggest thing that I look back.

And I struggle to say regret because my kind of philosophy is very much that these opportunities to learn come along, nobody is perfect. We all will make mistakes, and we have to acknowledge that. But when those mistakes have an impact on people and you look back, you do wish if you had your time again that that you could operate in a way that perhaps didn't place those demands on people unnecessarily.

Yeah. Yeah. And what kind of impact then did it have on people? So you're saying something about placing demands on them. It was like the pressure, the stress, trying to meet tight deadlines, that kind of thing.

Yeah. So I think, in particular, for me, it was that level of expectation that I placed on people probably had an impact on their confidence because there was this unspoken message that was not my intention that if you don't hit this standard, you're not good enough.

Yeah.

And that, I think, can be something that that stays with people for a long time in their own career.

Yeah.

And it it didn't come from an intention to do that. And very often, I recognized that people were good, and I would want to stretch them further. Yeah. And it was probably as I matured and got maybe to kind of my mid to late thirties and looked back to those earlier years of my leadership roles that there was that real realisation. And and probably as it happened to me, then you sort of introspect and look back and think, oh my god. Have I done this to other people? Yeah.

That's yeah. I think that's definitely the case in a lot of scenarios, isn't it? Where where we, something happens to us and it causes us to think back and say, wow. Have I actually done this myself? And are horrified to realize, yes. I have actually done this myself. There are a few things I'd love to pick up on there. This idea of the balance between getting results and people's well-being, for want of a better word. You know, that's the language we're using now. We probably didn't use that language back back in the day, but that's the language we're using now and finding that balance.

And it's I think it's tough because the business and your direct manager is probably expecting those results, or maybe there's an assumption that those are the results that are expected from you. And in order to deliver to those expectations, in order to deliver those results that you're expected to get, That needs to come from somewhere, and you're getting those results through other people. Like, this is something I learned early in my career is as an individual contributor, you get results and you're responsible for your own results. But then once you step into a management role, when you manage people for the first time, you're expected to deliver results through other people, through influencing them, through motivating them, all of these really important things. But it's sort of out of your control, the results, because it's the other people that are doing the work. So it's really tough. I just wanted to highlight that. I wanted to to kind of bring a bit more, bring a bit more color because I think it's important as managers, and it's not even first time managers.

I think managers can struggle with that through throughout their careers as well, finding that right balance between, okay, I need to deliver these results, but also I I need to make sure that my people are okay and that they're looked after and that they are in a state that they can give their best as well.

And I think, often, you can become so busy and so wrapped up in the need to prove yourself that you can get blinkers on

Yeah.

And miss signs that other people are feeling it. And when you don't have the degree of psychological safety in the relationship where somebody can acknowledge to you how they're feeling, then that gets heightened and that gets exacerbated. And I think that ability to make people feel that they matter, make it okay for them to tell you I'm struggling with this, make it okay for them to ask for help. Particularly when you are ambitious and progressing quickly in your career, you get promoted because you are able to deliver results. Yeah. And so a lot of your identity can become wrapped up in continuing to be able to deliver those results. And there isn't always the pause to think about, how does this play out differently now that I have to because there's there's one level where you're managing people, and that can be a first challenge. But then there's a whole other layer that comes in when you step into a real leadership role where you have direct and indirect reports, where you have to have those different layers of influence.

Yeah. And I think from a leadership perspective as well, there is an underplay of the importance of peer relationships and cross functional working in a leadership context. I think very often people think of leadership as the vertical, the being managed, leading a team, and perhaps underplay the importance of that indirect influence with peers and colleagues and cross functional projects?

Yeah. I think it's so important, especially, I think, in these modern times. And I certainly was in that environment where we were working in a matrix. So you you have one direct manager, but actually you're working as part of a team that kind of goes across. So, like, we're we're dealing with people in Europe as well who weren't our direct managers, but we still had to do some work for them and be part of that team as well. So I think it's, you know, there's so many things at play here as well. I wanted to come back to this idea of psychological safety, Jackie, that you brought up. I think it's so important.

I've touched on it many, many times on the podcast before. But I think in this context of I'm really driving for results, but I need to make sure that my team are okay, what's a good way to to make sure that you have that level of psychological safety? So if there's someone leadership, the senior leadership position for the first time, What I I need to influence people, but I also need to get results, and I need to make sure that my team is okay so that they don't burn out, so they don't get too stressed.

I think there's a couple of elements. Really, for me, psychological safety is rooted in trust, not in a kind of surface level, is somebody gonna tell me the truth or fib to me, but in that deeper layer of being able to trust that you can be yourself and not be judged for it. And so if you are looking in a leadership role to build that with others, you have to lead by example. You have to be yourself, and you have to be willing to acknowledge that you are not the finished article, you are a work in progress, that you won't get everything right. And I remember years ago having somebody that started working with me. We were in, retail, and, she started reporting to me. It was the run up to Christmas. It was one of those where the the easy thing to do would have been to just drop her in 'brilliant, you're here' hit the ground running, off you go.

Hit the ground running. And I remember sitting and having a conversation with her about what do you need from me? What is it that is going to allow you to perform at your best? And she told me that, I need to feel that you think I'm doing a good job. I need that positivity. I need to be told that I'm doing well. And I said to her, in all honesty, I know that is not something that I'm always good at. So if you are not getting enough from me Yeah. Then, you know, let's check-in. And 3 months later, as she was settling in, I had that conversation of

this

is what you said you needed. How are you finding the balance? Am I giving you enough of what you need? And she said, do you know what? I'd almost forgotten about it because with my previous manager, I needed to hear it. But with you, I feel it, and I know that you trust that I'm doing a good job.

Yeah. So I just got goosebumps.

It but it was it was that element of understanding what she needed and being able to check back to it. Yeah. And her understanding about me that if you're not hearing it day in, day out, doesn't mean I'm not feeling it or I'm not thinking it. Mhmm. And I think as well, because my style is quite direct, there's that sense of we have quite straightforward conversations. So although I'm not saying to her, you're doing a great job. You're doing a great job. It's implied, and it's there in the way that we interact with each other.

Yeah. So simple things like giving people time and understanding what they need from you Yeah. Can allow you to adjust and to tailor and checking back in with, and is this working?

Is Yeah.

Is what I'm intending coming across to you? Do you feel the way that I intend you to feel? And I think small things like that can have such an impact for the positive on relationships.

Yeah. It's it's so interesting, Jackie, that you talk about this idea of needs. That came up really strongly in the research that I did for my master's. And if you're a long term listener to the podcast, you'll have you know, for anyone who's listening today, you'll have heard me talk about this, I'm sure, in past episodes, but it's it's so important. And if I think back to my corporate days, I'm not sure anyone ever asked me what I needed. And had they asked me or had I even asked myself, I'm not sure sure I would have known the answer to that either. So, you know, again, for listeners today, maybe have a think about what are your needs at work? What do you need from your peers? What do you need from yourself? What do you need from your manager? And maybe we can explore some of those needs, Jackie. I like this idea of, you know, I I want you to feel or I want to feel like you think I'm doing a good job.

To me, that's recognition. That's a I see you. I see what you're doing. I know that you're capable. And that's not a need that everyone necessarily has, but I know there are lots of unique needs that people have. Maybe think about, well, what's at the top of that list? Is it recognition? Is it a sense of autonomy? So tell me very specifically what your expectations are, and let me go and figure it out for myself. And that's a a primary need. Any any thoughts on any of the other needs? Like, I could talk about this stuff all day, so I took my research on it.

But any any thoughts from from experiences that you've had about what needs people might have that listeners today can maybe identify with and see themselves in? So

one of the things that I found really helpful for me to reflect on my own needs came from one of the personality psychometrics that we did. So we did Myers Briggs.

Yeah.

And looking at those kind of personality profiles, I think if you're unsure, can help to point. So for me Yeah. My preference is introversion. So what that means for me is, yes, I can absolutely operate and be, you know, in a social space and hold my own in conversations. But what I also need sometimes is that opportunity to recharge and to have time away. Yeah. In terms of, that aspect of, sensing and intuition, I'm very much someone who is more sensing rather than intuitive. Mhmm.

So I will naturally go to the practical. What that means for me is if I'm going to operate where I'm at a leadership level, what I actually need is somebody who can draw out more of that bigger picture intuitive

Yeah.

Type thing. So I think sometimes those kinds of anything that allows you to self reflect, Yeah. Whether it's a personality profile tool, an EQI assessment, those types of things, I think, can be really useful for prompting those thoughts. And another one that I think is really helpful is reflecting on strengths. And I, again, know that that is a real passion of yours, and it's not something that is that common. But the the thing that I think is quite helpful is to just notice what do other people see comes easily to me. Yeah. Because what does that mean for what I need in order to be at my best? Because to be our best, we need a space where our strengths can shine, and we're not trying to fill in the holes.

Such a good point. Interestingly, like, I talked about this at at the time of recording, I talked about this on a webinar yesterday. And the example I always love to go to and it's kind of random and it's personal rather than strictly business. But when I I love doing escape prints. I haven't done one in years probably since before the pandemic. I did one online during the pandemic for sure, but, I haven't done one properly in years. But going into the escape room, and we're trying to solve a problem. And we were you know, you're looking around with all these different clues.

And I was like, oh, well, I saw something similar earlier, and I think that might be related to that. So I can very easily connect the dots like that. And my friend said, how did you do that? And I said, what do you mean? Like, to me, it came so easily and naturally. It's just to me, you we assume that our strengths are things that everyone can do, and we forget that, actually, that's our superpower. That's something that we uniquely have. And I think just as a reminder to people listening, like, that is remember what your strengths are, know what your strengths are, and and see where people call you out and say, how did you do that, or can you help me with this? Another example from a business context would be like when I started in a new organization, and I was only in the place about 2 months, and people were coming to me asking me how to use the software. And it's only now, like, literally in this moment that I'm looking back going, wait a minute. That means that I can learn software quite easily.

I can go in and I can figure things out and how things get done and what needs to go where to use new software that they've been using for years, but but I can just go in and go boom boom boom. That's how we do things. That's how to make things more efficient. But it's only now that I'm kind of looking back going, they came to me because this isn't this. So I yeah. I mean, I'm a huge fan of strength and understanding what our strengths are and speaking about our strengths at work because oftentimes, we don't recognize each other for the strengths that we bring to the workplace. Certainly in my career, I don't remember ever having a conversation with someone about strengths in a in a team context or anything like that. So thank you for sharing that.

I think that's that's really important. I want to come back again to something that you mentioned earlier about when we're managing people, we see the potential in them, and we push them because we know that they can do better. And from their perspective, maybe it's not all that obvious. They just think my manager is being a tyrant. They're giving me too much work. So can we talk a little bit about how to find the balance between recognizing the really good work that someone's doing and and giving them an opportunity to progress, to be challenged, to really work on something meaty and juicy, but still feel kind of rewarded for it.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think what I see with this is both sides. So there's that aspect of also, sometimes people try and protect their team and Yeah. Don't want to pile too much on and don't and can make assumptions that I don't wanna pass that over, you know, or I don't want my team to ask my team to do something that I'm not obviously prepared to do myself. And for me, there is a real skill to finding that that space in work and life where you are offering somebody both high challenge and also high support. Yeah. Because if you give too much support and not enough challenge, then people do stagnate and the potential that they have to grow and develop isn't realized.

So you're actually doing somebody a disservice if you don't provide those opportunities. And, again, it can be really simple in terms of checking in with them of, you know so when I'm having coaching sessions with clients, one of the things I will ask them is how open are you to being challenged? How able are you to face challenge at this point in time? And we adapt the coaching conversation and the types of questions and the degree of challenge. And equally, you can do that as a leader with members of your team. Yeah. Because if there's things going on outside of work, if there's a reason why somebody's resilience has been tested and they need to be able to just kind of do the day to day and get on with things for a bit, then great. That and and I think what's important is people shouldn't feel penalized for that.

Yeah.

Growth doesn't have to be linear. Growth doesn't have to be this sequential step by step thing that continues at the same pace through somebody's career. I think it can often work to have a steeper steeper incline and then a plateau to kind of, okay, get the breath. Right now, go again.

Yeah. I'd love to come back to that in a second, but I I I want to, again, reflect back on this question of how open are you are you to being challenged? If someone asked me that, I would probably say very open. But then it's it's hard because you think that you're open to challenge and and then you are challenged or or people are stretching you a little bit. And can we explore that in a little bit more detail where maybe we assume that it's that we want to be challenged, but, actually, when people start pushing us a little bit, then we're stretching our comfort zone and things feel hard.

Yeah. And I really like, again, simplicity. The comfort, challenge, and panic zone is the way that I've used in the past to have conversations

Yeah.

With with people about where are you at. You know, your your comfort zone, it's your retreat space. It's where you are comfortable. You know that you can do what you need to do. Your challenge is where you're stretching. But what I'm trying to do is to challenge you without taking you into your panic zone.

Avoid panic.

Yeah. And and you can, again, use that as a check-in. If somebody wants to be challenged, you you meet the level of challenge with the level of support so that there is and make it okay for people to admit mistakes, to not get things right first time

Mhmm.

Because that allows people to challenge themself and to be challenged with that safety net, with knowing I'm not supposed to get everything right first time. Yeah. And so I think that, from a a psychological perspective, makes such a difference. And if if when you're you know, I I see it so much when people are in that first leadership role. There's they're desperate to prove themselves, and you can clench and tighten and therefore not want to admit mistakes, not want to have the awareness of where things haven't perhaps been great because you're judging yourself for it, and you're fearing being judged for it. So the greater the level of safety, the greater the opportunity for challenge, but keep those checks and balances of where are you in this zone? How is this feeling? Now you you said you're right with the challenge. I've given you that challenge. How is it how is it panning out?

Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you lead a a a life raft or, you know, are you doing okay? Brilliant. And I think it is coming back to to this the earlier point, the providing this like, the balance between support and challenge. So making sure that you're giving people the support, that they have the psychological safety, that they know it's okay to say, listen. I need a bit of more support here. I need a bit more guidance or direction or or whatever it might be. I'd love to come back to this idea of growth that doesn't have to be linear and that people can't or it's not, I suppose, not to penalize people if they're in that comfort zone.

And I'd love to kinda I'd love to have an honest discussion around this because on the one hand, you can see okay. So the people who are the ones who are delivering the results, they're the ones that are getting promoted and rightly so. If they're delivering on the outcomes and the objectives that they have, but then how do we make sure that other people are coming in coming along on that journey if they're staying in that comfort zone, if they're delivering to expectations, but not necessarily beyond expectations, how do we recreate an environment where everyone can thrive?

So I think what's really important is to recognize the contribution and the need to have those people as part of teams.

Yeah.

Because teams would fall apart without the people who are if if everybody is desperately trying to get promoted, then what you tend to end up with is this situation where there are niggles, there are clicks, there is one upmanship. You know, if everybody is desperately trying to overachieve on an individual personal level, that is not conducive. And, conversely, if everybody is trying to at least meet expectations, then from a team perspective, that has a huge impact because the there is a massive opportunity for most teams, which is not to have 1 or 2 people who are absolute stars, but to have everybody who is pulling into that team performance, delivering their own contribution, being a part of that, being comfortable with that element of placing the team above themselves and those people are gold to have as as part of your team.

Yeah.

And I I'm always fascinated by, sports and how kind of, you know, what we can see in sport translates into business. And you you see that so often where you see teams with individual con contributors in sport who achieve less than teams where everybody knows their role and plays their role well Yeah. But maybe don't have the individual stars.

Yeah. I think that's it's such a valuable point, and it's something that we touched on during the masters as well because there are individual stars who are really high performers in a certain area, but teams need all of those different types of people. But I think if everyone is for the team as opposed to themselves and what's best for the team, what's best for the department, the organization. What you know, I'm not trying to outshine everyone else. I understand my unique contribution, and I rely on other people in order to do my However, that However, that has not necessarily been my experience at work. It's felt very disjointed, very siloed, very competitive. Any thoughts on kind of some of the first steps to take to build the psychological safety that we need to build more of that teamwork kind of environment rather than it's all about me, and I'm here for my promotion?

I think a lot of this when you're in a leadership role comes to what do you recognize and how do you show appreciation of the value that people contribute? Because you that will naturally breed behavior within the team, and I've had quite varied experiences. I've had the experiences where people were all separately, desperately trying to prove themselves and trying to be top dog as it were, but I've also had experience of being part of a team where we genuinely all were drawn towards that team, and that was the difference was how we were led was what the expectation was. And if you are recognized and valued more so by your leader for your contribution as part of the team overall as opposed to individual, then that naturally lends itself. So I think as a leader, you have to be really aware of that and really look for the things to show recognition and appreciation for and to reinforce. And equally, I think what's important as well is that as a leader, you have to also role model that by seeing your peers and your colleagues as your team, and you have to be prepared to, you know, from a functional perspective, not create that silo inadvertently by I think there's there's often a when you know people that are in your team, there's often a natural kind of protectionism sometimes about protect my team and, you know, I want the right things for my team. And sometimes, you know, if you take it from a budget perspective as an example, sometimes it might be, actually, we're gonna pull the budget from this function or this project because the right thing at this level with me and my peers is for that to be allocated over there. So you can role model that as a leader into your team where you see your peers as your colleagues and as that team working at that level instead of

I was just I was just going to say the obvious one seems resources, and the obvious resource is money. So, you know, looking at where money is being spent or where money is being put and not competing over that, but understanding from the department or from the organization as a whole where that money needs to be allocated makes absolute sense, and it's transparent. So, again, I think it ties in with a lot of these things that we need to be transparent about how decisions are made and that we need to be transparent with our own teams about why those decisions are made and why it's a good decision even if you don't you know, you would prefer, obviously, if the budget came to your team, but, actually, you understand why it was done because it has, you know, the rationale behind it. It's based in the values of the organization. It's based on the resources that are currently available and and things, you know, and and seeing how decisions are made. I think it's it's so so important. One of the it's such a valuable point, I just want to say it again, is this idea of like what are you actually recognizing people for? You know, I think oftentimes we recognize people for results that they get. So are you recognizing people for the contribution to the overall team? Are you recognizing people for how they have achieved their work? Are you are you recognizing people for displaying and espousing the values of the organization? That's something I used to do with my team is talk all an awful lot about values and recognize each other in how we're demonstrating the values.

Now when I look back, I think the values were really dis not disjointed, but the values of the organization were, to my mind, not really being lived by the organization as a whole. It's not one of the the examples I always think of is simple. Like, it was far from simple. It was such a bureaucratic organization. And so when we're talking on the one hand of, like, one of our values is simple, but we're not living that value, it it it's really hard to make that connection, and that erodes trust, I think, and it it erodes that sense of psychological safety. Because if you're lying about this, what else are you lying about? So I just wanted to kinda to bring it back. Jacqui, is there anything else that we haven't really covered today that you any points that you would like to get across?

I think probably the only thing I would say is if you are looking to develop yourself as a leader, the the thing that I see time and time again is people. So I I divide your your kind of development as a leader into mindset, skill set, and strategies. And I think people often overemphasize. So, you know, when you you're asked to do leadership development, it's very much around the skill set and strategies. It's around, you know, strategic thinking, communication, effective delegation, conflict resolution. You know, you you could go on. And those are important, but I think the foundation as a leader is about what's happening inside you in order to you know, you've got to be able to set a direction. You've got to be able to take people with you.

You've got to be able to deliver results, but you've got to do all of that while being true to you. And that awareness of yourself, that willingness to be a work in progress and not be the finished article, that willingness to role model that humility with your team is is the bit that I think doesn't get talked about in leadership development. And actually it's the foundational stuff that makes the difference between someone's fulfilling their potential as a leader or not.

Yep. Yeah. So what you're saying is, as a leader, it's foundational that we understand we don't have to have all the answers. It's okay if we make mistakes. We're on this journey. I love to call it a journey. We're on this journey, and there is no destination. There's always going to be something that something more that we need to learn.

We're never gonna get to a stage where, like, right, I have I have this leadership thing sorted. I I know all there is to know. I think we're continuously learning and continuously being challenged by other people as well. I think that, you know, it's if I can say it's about relationships, isn't it? It's like we don't do leadership on our own. We do leadership with other people, and it's how we relate to other people. And that brings up stuff inside ourselves in in how we relate, I think, as well. So, it's been such an amazing conversation, loads of nuggets, I think, for people to take away immediately and reflect for themselves or start to make changes with their own teams. Jackie, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

So I gave some real time to kind of reflect and try, and my way is to simplify.

Yeah.

And I think if I really boil it down, there's probably 2 components to me. So one is to do work that matters to you, and that can be about it having an impact. It's that can be very personal as to how that translates. But the other is to have the ability to truly be you at work. And I think if people have both of those things, then that allows them to be at their best, allows them to be happier at work.

Yeah. It's amazing. Like, that's I think throughout our conversation, that whole idea of authenticity has really shown through. So, that's I I can absolutely relate to that because I've been in both kinds of environments where you can be yourself and you can like, I would like to have fun at work. You know, some people think, well, it's work. You're not supposed to have fun. Well, I think you are, so I'm gonna find other people who think work should be fun as well. You know, you enjoy what you do.

You get along well with your colleagues. You can have a laugh. You can socialize together, all of that kind of thing. So, again, this idea, and I I talk about this a lot as well, is the values. So understanding what your values are. Clearly, one of your values is authenticity. So is one of my values, authenticity and fun. So I think finding a workplace where you can be yourself, where you don't have to check yourself at the door is so, so important.

So thank you so much for sharing that. If people want to connect with you, and I highly recommend that they do, they definitely should go and follow you on LinkedIn. What's the best place that they can do that?

So aside from LinkedIn, I have a podcast of my own as well, so Career and Leadership Real Talk, which you can find on all of the major podcast platforms. But, yeah, LinkedIn, I'm really active and always open to conversations, virtual couples, all of that. So, yeah, please contact me.

Check her out, Jackie Jagger on LinkedIn. Jackie with a c and a q and a UI, and definitely go and check her out. Thank you so much for your time today, Jackie. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for inviting me. I've absolutely loved the conversation.