Welcome, to season five of Enter the Bible, a podcast in which we share "Everything You Wanted to Know about the Bible...but were afraid to ask."

In episode 2 of season 5, the Assistant to the Bishop for Emerging Ministers & Ministries for the Indiana-Kentucky Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, guest Cory Driver joins our hosts Katie Langston and Kathryn Schifferdecker.

Today our theologians will be answering the question, "Why Are There So Many Things That Can Get You Executed in Leviticus? Isn't that a Bit of Overkill?"

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Katie Langston: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible. But we're afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker . And we have as our special guest today, Reverend Dr. Cory Driver, who is assistant to the Bishop for Emerging Ministries and ministers in the Indiana Kentucky Synod of the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, of which we are all pastors. Corey himself is a pastor as well. He's also holds a PhD in in Hebrew Bible, Old Testament, Jewish Studies. I don't know the exact, but he he is a wealth of information about the Old Testament and particularly Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament. And he is an adjunct professor of Old Testament here at Luther Seminary. So thank you so much for joining us, Corey. Oh, and I should mention your book, Life Unsettled as Scriptural Journey for Wilderness Time by Fortress Press. You should check it out. So thanks for joining us Cory.

Cory Driver: Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Katie Langston: I'm glad you're here. And I'm especially glad you're here because today's question comes from not necessarily a listener, but a co-host who is me. So I've been you know, I've been going through the Bible from beginning to end. And I was in Leviticus, you know, which is a spot where you might normally lose some steam in such an endeavor. But I, I soldiered on. And as I was reading through, I was perplexed at the number of things in Leviticus that can get you executed. And so I am wondering why can so many things get you executed in Leviticus? Is that not overkill? Pun. Pun intended. Very. Thank you. Thank you for the courtesy chuckle. Um. Yeah. Like what? What? Why? Why? I need to know.

Cory Driver: So I've got three responses. Um, and you can try them on and see if any of them fit. Um, I should note that they are canonical and pastoral and not necessarily literary, critical or historical. So Kathryn saved me. Um. And you mentioned Leviticus being kind of a slog. And yeah, of course, unless you are of a particular kind of nerd, which might, might happen to me.

Katie Langston: Kathryn, you, you, you have a soft spot for Leviticus as well, right? So do I. I'm talking I'm talking to a couple of major nerds. So this is good. This is good. Yes.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yes, sure.

Cory Driver: But even for us, right. Like I find myself really drawn to the narrative. And there are precious islands of narrative in Leviticus. That's true. And I think in order to respond to why so much killing, I want to dive into a couple stories in Leviticus. Um, so we should note also and my PhD is Jewish religious cultures, so this is coming out of that. Okay. Um, Jewish law is largely case law, right? Rather than direct like legal theory, right? Something happens and then we make a rule to make sure that it happens again. If it was a good thing or like happens much less if it was a bad thing. Right. And so. Probably starting with narrative makes a lot of sense because these are stories of what happens.

Katie Langston: Cory, this this not to interrupt, but this reminds me of a sign I saw in a bathroom this past weekend and it said, Please do not flush the toilet with your foot. Oh, okay. And so it's like it seems like that was one of those things where it's like, uh oh, someone flush the toilet with their foot. It caused a problem and therefore we needed to make a rule to say.

Cory Driver: That sign doesn't come with the toilet. Something has to happen.

Katie Langston: Something happened and it was like, let's not let's not do that anymore.

Cory Driver: Or At least do it gently .

Kathryn Schifferdecker: You wonder what happened. Like, what's the story? I think someone.

Katie Langston: I think someone.

Cory Driver: I know exactly what happened.

Katie Langston: I think Someone flushed a toilet with their foot.

Cory Driver: A little too hard.

Katie Langston: I mean, yes, they did.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: But they did it hurt the toilet or did it hurt them? That's all I'm wondering. But that's not a question. That's not a question. The point being that, yes, there's a story behind it. Yes.

Cory Driver: There Couldn't be a better intro to what is about to happen. That is exactly what's going on. So with that said, let's read a little Leviticus. Okay, we go. All right. So Leviticus ten, I'm going to start in verse one. You know what this is now Nadav and Abby, who the Sons of Aaron took their respective fire plants and after putting fire in them, placed incense on the fire and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them. And they died before the Lord. Um, everybody's favorite lectionary reading that comes up all the time in the text. Um, the first response to why there's maybe so much killing and so much that can get you killed in Leviticus is. It's a life form imbalance that leads to protection measures for the community. Right. So not of an offer their offerings there. They're the sons of the high priest. They're doing their thing, but they bring in some strange ingredients. Right. Strange fire. And we don't know exactly what that means. There's lots of different interpretations, way more than we have time for in the podcast. But they bring in something that's not ready, right? So in Leviticus and elsewhere, we have this clean or unclean or pure or impure. Imprecise terms, right? I think it's probably better to think about these terms as like, ready and not ready to encounter God, Huh? Right. Because there's nothing inherently impure about something that is Tahara, Right. Like or timing, right.

Katie Langston: Like touching. Like you touched a dead body or a woman.

Cory Driver: Touched a dead body.

Katie Langston: Woman is on her period or whatever. That's not like impure in a in a sort of.

Cory Driver: Lizard fell into your water. Right? Not a moral.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: It's not a moral sin.

Cory Driver: Moral. Not no problem. I mean. Right. Like. Yeah.

Katie Langston: I wouldn't like it if.

Cory Driver: A beloved person done dies. If my beloved person dies and I'm, like, carrying them to their graves. Right? That's not like you're not doing anything wrong. Right, right, right, right, right. Like. Menses, right? Is not something wrong? It's just not ready to go into the tabernacle or the temple. Okay? Right. Okay. Take a little pause. Get intentional, then go. Right. Pure versus.

Katie Langston: Pure verses Impure. I like that. Reframe. Ready versus not ready. Yeah, that's good.

Cory Driver: Ready versus not.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Not it does not mean sinful or. Or morally not sinful. Okay, that's.

Katie Langston: Okey that's Helpful. Cool.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: No, though sin does make a person impure. Exactly. But not all impurity is the result of gotcha.

Katie Langston: Okay.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Some of it is the result of very natural process. It's like castration. Okay.

Cory Driver: There are a lot of reasons you could be not ready. Okay. Right. Um. And so Nadav and Abihu bring not ready into ready space. Okay. And they ought to have known better. But they don't seem to have or they maybe didn't take it as seriously. Maybe they did know better. But they're like, oh, you know, we're offering an offering. What does God care? Right? Where's the where the fire comes from? Right. But God cares very much like so much so that they are immolated, right? They're incinerated. What is going on? Right. Like, why would that get you burned up? Because is the question.

Katie Langston: Sounds like A lot.

Cory Driver: Yeah, sounds like overkill wing, but that's going to keep you in fun this whole time. Um, so it's maybe an issue of species imbalance, right? So one of my favorite sort of speculative fictional authors about this period Jack Miles talks about. God is volcano, choosing to live in a hair and leather tent because the tent was built by the volcano's friend. Right. And I think that's kind of a lovely image.

Katie Langston: Wait. Say it again. God is volcano.

Cory Driver: God as like volcano. Like fire and smoke on a mountain. Thundering lives in little embers. And so that God chooses to live in a very combustible portable building because it was built by the volcano Spring. Um. I was thinking, and I can't remember. Kathryn, I wonder, was it your advisor who said, like, God is like nuclear reactor, right? Yeah.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, yeah. Jan Levinson, my my PhD advisor. Nuclear reactor. Or even just simply a power plant, right? Like. Yeah, yeah. Power plants. So similar to what, you know, Jack Miles talks about with the volcano. It's like the tabernacle, right? Which is this portable temple or portable Mount Sinai. The presence of God or where God dwells in the midst of the people as they're wandering through the wilderness. The tabernacle is like a power plant or a nuclear power or a volcano. Any of these things this this extremely. Uh, powerful in the case of a power plant. Extremely useful. Good thing that if you approach carelessly, will kill you. Sure. Right. Not because it's malicious, not because it's, you know, delights and killing people, but because there's so much power there that if you are stupid and do not prepare yourself, do not prepare yourself correctly. Do not, you know, dress in all the protective gear. You will die. And it's not because the power plant hates you. It's just because there's so much power. So because it's a find that a useful way of. Yeah, I find that a useful way of thinking about this story and other stories like it, like, like when, when they study the Ark of the Covenant later in second Samuel is it the Ark of the Covenant is put on a cart and taken to Jerusalem. It's it's, you know, shaken by the cart. And one of the men reaches back to study it and dies instantly again. Not because he sinned, but because he wasn't careful. So I like your I like your choice of words. Ready or not ready. Think that prepared or not prepared? Yeah, that sort of thing.

Cory Driver: So the rules of Leviticus then are essentially like a hazmat suit, huh? Right. That allows you to get close safely the the tabernacle and then the ring of the Levites. Around them are the containment unit for the nuclear reactor that wants to live among the people. Right.

Katie Langston: Like it's a very friendly nuclear reactor.

Cory Driver: It is an incredibly intimate and loving nuclear power in which, like there is power and there's warmth and there's protection, right? Like all the things, right? This metaphor works really well. And all you have to do in order to be safe with the the nuclear power that wants to live at the center of town. Is put on your hazmat suit. Right? Right. And so the provisions of Leviticus are in that way sort of a gift, right? Like there is a species imbalance, the God of the universe and humans are going to live together in a mobile town. We need to take some steps, right? Yeah. And it's it's in that sense, the death of Nadav and Avihu, who is a gift. To say, like, look. We have a species and there's danger here, but it's because of who I am. But also I love you and want to be present physically because of who I am and because of who you are. Please take steps. And I don't want. What God does not want at all is long term nuclear poisoning. Right. It's it's the slow leak out of the containment that is the threat to the entire community. And so when Jeremiah and Jeremiah seven is talking about you don't understand what this presence is here among us, right? You're just going loosey goosey and doing whatever. But there's real danger and there's going to be I'm okay saying it hell to pay. Right? Because we're not taking protective measures seriously. God gave you the hazmat suit of these laws so that you and God could live together. Yeah. If you take off your hazmat suit, it doesn't mean that the nuclear reactor hates you. It means that you're not taking care of yourself and taking care of your community. And so Nadav And Abihu . Dying is like, look, two people died and it's horrible. We do not want people to die. We do absolutely want you all to take this incredibly seriously so that we don't have the long term poison. That neglect of God's holiness is going to, you know, eventually work across hundreds of years. Okay. And so it's. Um. We don't feel super comfortable with this all the time. But like the first response is that, look, these laws and the serious penalties that underlie them are a protective move from God. To say it, it may come to exile. We don't want that. So in order to prevent that or forestall that. Please take this incredibly seriously.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: That's it's worth noting that a few verses after they die, the Lord speaks to Aaron and says, and these are important verses in chapter ten, verse eight. And the Lord spoke to Aaron Drink no wine or strong drink. Neither you nor your sons. When you enter the tent of meeting that you may not die. It is a statute forever throughout your generation. So I read that as that maybe this strange fire or the translates it unholy fire may have something to do with that. Maybe Nadav and Abihu who got into the communion wine and you know.

Katie Langston: Oh Nadav and Abihu .

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And that's why they yeah and that's you know why God then commands don't don't be drinking you know when you when you enter the nuclear power plant or the, you know, the volcano or whatever metaphor you want to use. But then the verse ten is really key. Right after that you are to distinguish between the holy and the common and between the unclean and the clean. And you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them through Moses. So this is the job of the priest, right? Aaron is the first high priest, his descendants or the priests. This is your job. You owe to. You are to teach the people of Israel how to approach, you know, how to be ready, how to be ready to approach God, distinguish between the the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean. So and and this is actually refers back to Genesis one. It's the same verb used here in the Hebrew when God separates the waters above the sky from the waters below the sky or separates the sea from the dry land, or separates the night, the light from the darkness. The world is created in such a way and the same people responsible for Leviticus are also responsible for that creation story in Genesis one. So, so the priests act in a way, as God did, in creation, to order the world in such a way to distinguish between certain parts of the world in order to create a space that life can thrive, that life can exist. Right? So to create order out of chaos so that there is space and the and the means for life to to exist, to thrive. So. Back to you, Cory. Sorry.

Cory Driver: Yeah. No. Great. That's. Yeah, that's exactly it. This is a life preservation, right? This is a heavy warning. And the instructions for Aaron come after the death of his sons, and the warning is very much underscored. Please don't let this happen to you. Yeah, right. So first response. Maybe all the instructions and they're extremely heavy penalties are an attempt to preserve life. Yep. Okay. Human life. The second response is maybe it's a protective move for God. And underscoring this, I'd like to turn to Leviticus 24. I'll start at verse ten. Um. A real tear jerker of a story. Not that the last wasn't, but if we have a heart to feel, this is a tough one. So the Leviticus 10:24 now the son of an Israelite woman, his father was an Egyptian, went out among the Sons of Israel and the Israelite woman's son and an Israelite man had a fight within the camp. And the son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the name and cursed. So they brought him to Moses. Now, his mother's name was Amit, the daughter of Debris of the tribe Diam. Then they put him in custody, waiting for Moses to give them a clear decision in accordance with the command of the Lord. Then the Lord spoke to Moses saying, Bring the one who is cursed outside the camp and have all who heard him lay their hands on his head and then have all the congregation stone him.

Katie Langston: Okay, This is the story that prompted my question.

Cory Driver: Was it really?

Katie Langston: Yeah, I was reading this and I was like, What the hell?

Cory Driver: Holy Spirit, activate. Okay. Love it. Yep.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Okay, so chapter 24. Chapter 24. Starting at verse 10. All right.

Cory Driver: Okay, great. Um. There's two verbs for what the man does. And the third response is going to circle back to the same story. So we're going to we're going to focus on him in a little bit right now. We're going to focus on God. Okay. Right. What does the man do to God? There's two things. He blasphemes the name and curses. Okay. And so in Hebrew it will actually say, right, like, this isn't the Lord, this is the name. So. So this man is doing something to God's identity. God's God's self, right? Right. Blaspheme. Okay. Um. I'm maybe more of a little literalist here. And certainly the rabbis are going to agree that somehow this man has pierced God's name or made a hole in God's name. Mm hmm. So something the man says actually hurts God, right? And kind of pokes a hole in who it is God thinks God's self is for those verbs get tough, um, and curses. Right? And so we get the blasphemy. You can't say mean things about God, but also this person is having an impact on God. And so maybe the move here is self protective for God. And a lot of times we disassociate Leviticus from some of the later prophetic writings and maybe other authors in in the first five books. Um. But this notion of God's vulnerability and especially God's emotional vulnerability. Right? Like. God in the text does repent, does feel sadness is sometimes surprised, Jeremiah tells us. Right. Like God has this rich emotional life in the text that we're not always comfortable with, right? Like, scares me. Okay. Okay. So I love it. Um, different sides, whatever. We can be friends. Um, but it, it means a lot to me that God is willing to enter into relationship with creation and particularly with humanity, so much that God becomes emotionally moved, right? Like, people can grieve God's heart. People can cause God to regret, repent. People can, like, inspire love, right? When God's compassion crests as as an ocean wave like, oh, my gosh. Um, that's, that's the theology that I get excited about. And I wonder if this is theologically speaking, right, God being very vulnerable to say, look, some of the things have really heavy penalties. Because it hurts me and the people don't know what to do right in the text. They're like, Oh, has no one ever blasphemed before? Has nobody ever said a bad thing about God? Well, you know, we we've read Exodus. There have been some there's been some complaining anyway. Right. Uh, but somehow what this person does seems to be somewhat unique. And I wonder if this penalty with the putting of hands of the witnesses on the person and then other people's stoning seems a mite dangerous for the witnesses, I have to say, um, is somehow a response to humans effect on God and think like. I wonder if as Christians write like. This is a nasty story but points to the God who is willing to be vulnerable, who is willing to ultimately take on flesh. Right. And be very much pierced by humans or have holes made through. Right. And so. I think if we just read the words that are on the page, right, like this is about vulnerability and God saying, I actually can't can't have this done to me. Yeah, not right now. Right? Like this is too much for even me. And I understand that will be too far for a lot of listeners. But like think it actually says something lovely about God that again, it's included here. Yeah, right. The name is pierced and there's a curse uttered. Yeah. And maybe it's maybe it's a protective move from a God who's extremely emotionally available and present with God's people. And that's the picture we get from the Hebrew Bible. Yeah. That God is not platonic. Ideal and unmoved, right? Like God is very much moved and is quite forthright about it.

Katie Langston: God's a move, a moved mover think about.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, I think that's really helpful and and and thought provoking. I think about of course the commandment, you know, don't take the name of the Lord your God in vain. Uh, that there is something about the name of the. So in Genesis, God does not give God's name right? Jacob asked for it and God doesn't give. In Genesis 32, God doesn't give God's name. And then but then in Exodus, when Moses does ask for God's name, you know, if you send me to the Israelites and they ask who sent me, what shall I say to them? And God says, I am who I am or I will be who I will be or whatever. However you want to translate that, and it's that name then that is in this text as well, right? That personal name of God that God gives to Moses. Which is so holy that to this day observant Jews will not even, you know, attempt to say that name. Some well-meaning but ignorant Christian interpreters.

Katie Langston: They kind of just throw it around sometimes. And I'm like, Uh oh, they do.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And it's just not it is not respectful to our Jewish brothers and sisters when we do that anyway. It's that name we're talking about. And then the second commandment is don't use when you give someone your name. You are, in a sense, opening yourself up to that person and giving that person a claim on you, even if you know it's not in our day, probably not much of a claim. But when you know someone's name, you, you know, when you call their name, they will turn their head right. There's a certain vulnerability about giving one's name to someone and and even more so in scripture, right, where that name can be misused, used or blasphemed or and, and think, you know, we could talk a lot about how God's name is used today, not just in the way I was just talking about, you know, by ignorant Christians, but, um, but how God's name is used to justify some terrible things, right? I mean, both. Yeah. In, in the church, both in history and today. But that's a that's another topic. I just want to note that after this story, there's, there's a number of laws that talk about, oh, go, go for it. Cory Yes.

Cory Driver: Go. Yeah. Um, so just a little bit of freedom and then circle back if I miss anything. But yeah, specifically this issue in gender's many laws and commandments after it, Okay, Right. Because again, the people don't seem to know what to do, right? They hold this person in custody. Moses goes and asks, It's just like, Oh, we haven't thought about this. We've never, never seen this thing. And so

Katie Langston: No One has ever flush the toilet with their feet before.

Cory Driver: Oh, man.

Katie Langston: Right. No, that's what you're saying. Like, that's. That's the thing, right? Okay, Go on. Sorry.

Cory Driver: Yeah. All right. That's. Anyway, we'll have to cut this out in post. So the instructions thereafter include this repeated theme, and then there's other stuff. You have one law for the foreigner and the Israelite among you. So I'll just jump in to verse 17. Now, if someone takes any human life, he must be put to death. Skipping to 22, there will only be one standard for you. It shall be for the stranger as well as native. For I am the Lord your God again, this is God identifying God's self and then providing motivation from there. Then Moses spoke to the Sons of Israel and they brought the one who had cursed outside the camp and stoned him with stones. So the son of Israel did, just as the Lord had commanded Moses. So here's maybe the third response is that maybe the laws in their penalties are protection for humans. Maybe the laws and their penalties are protection for God, and maybe the laws and their penalties are a failure of the community. Here's what I'm saying. What's the setup of the story? The man goes out right now, the son of an Israelite woman. His father was an Egyptian, went out among the Sons of Israel and they're in the camp. So the question comes up and like a good rabbi would ask, from where did he go out? And the understanding is he went out from the tent of meeting. He's just had a conversation with Moses and God. Right. And the question is. We're plotting up the inheritance of the land. My mother is from the tribe of Dan. My father is an Egyptian. Maybe it was a love match in the era of Rav, right? Like the the Exodus 1238, the great number of people who went out with the Israelites and maybe it wasn't right. Maybe something bad happens and this man comes to be through no fault of his own. Um, mixed ethnic individual. Right. And so he asks. Who who do I camp with, right? We set up the camp. Do I camp with Dan? Should I camp with the. The mixed multitude That's with us. Where should my tent be? You know my mom, Sheila, meet. Everybody knows her. The daughter of Debry, right? Where do I go? And Moses says, and this is not in the text. You have no inheritance, right? We. You're not of the tribe of Dan. Right, because in this day, property and Jewish identity or Israelite identity is patrilineal. Right. Today it's matrilineal back in the day, right. Like Judah has. In the night Partners Joseph has an Egyptian partner right so the kids patrilineal. And so look your father's in Egyptian your inheritance is in Egypt and don't know what you're doing. And he goes out and he gets into a fight with an Israelite. Now the Midrash will say, this is the person's half brother, right? His mother's son with an Israelite name.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: What say What a midrash. What's Midrash Cory ?

Cory Driver: Midrash is literally like the product of study. So very much like we do when we come to a text and ask a question. Right? Like the whole basis for this podcast, Midrash is the study that leads to the response. Right.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And it's and it's Jewish,

Cory Driver: Very Jewish rabbinic technique. To stay grounded in the text but open up for space for storytelling or new rules for midrash as well. So, look, we have a question from the text. Let's go to the text for an answer. But let's have a little freedom to.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: So Jewish kind of creative interpretation, but based in the text. Yeah, sorry. Go ahead.

Cory Driver: Very much. No, no, no. Great. So that this guy is fighting over this deep issue of belonging. Like, where do I sleep when we enter the land? Where is my allotment going to be? And Moses says, you're not going to get an allotment. And so that provides this emotional background of like, why did you get in the fight with an Israelite? Like what from where did you go out to enter into the camp, right? Like if presumably if you go out, you'd be outside the camp. And then why do you curse God's name? Right. Like. The interpretation here is that Moses has a sort of failure to include an inner seed for the less than fully Israelites. Right. So Moses intercedes all the time, right? In death sentences. Right, Right. Exodus 32, Numbers 14. Number 16, there's this story of like God specifically saying, Now, Moses, do not intercede. I really want to kill these people. And Moses dispatches his own brother to go stand between the living and the dead. Right? Right. And so disobeys a direct command to stop the loss of life. Right. So Moses is all the time talking back to God. No, no, no, no, no. You don't want to kill this person, right? You don't want to kill those. And what Moses does here is not that as very much the opposite. And Moses has this radical failure of empathy, because if anybody understands what it's like to have an Israelite mom and your Israelite dad not be super present or be a big fixture in your life, Right? Like it's Moses growing up in Pharaoh's household. Princess Batya. So the gosh, is it the Pixar movie the The Prince of Egypt? When Miriam says like, so good, go ask the man you call father. Yeah. What happened? Right. Like, that's who this Moses is, the guy who should, if anyone else, have radical empathy for somebody with an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father. Yeah. And instead, he says you don't have any inheritance. And when Moses asked the question, it all goes to him, right? They send Moses to ask, what's to be done? Moses asks, says, You actually have to have your hands on him when he's crushed to death. Moses says. Okay. But before that happens. God keeps, like trying to prick Moses's conscience, right? If someone takes a human life, he must be put to death. Well, what had Moses done? But kill an Egyptian overseer. Right. You shall only have one standard for you. For the native and for the foreigner. God's talking to Moses here. Like, are you sure you don't want to intercede? Like, I know this is in your character. I know that you're going to do this. I wonder. And this is like the really pastoral move. A lot of the punishment isn't a failure of empathy on behalf of Moses, because Moses will avert death of the people when they when they cause problems, when they injure God's name. Right. That's the exact thing. Right. And he doesn't do it here. And I wonder if like. That's not the message for Christians interpreting these passages, right? Like Moses is this great example of especially in number 16. God says specifically, do not get involved, do not rescue these people. And Moses said, Aaron, go. And Aaron goes and stops the play. Right. Right. And I think, God, I think God loves that about Moses. Think that's why Moses is God's great friend and why they hang out and talk so much. It's like, Oh, you got me. I'm delighted to be gotten, by the way. Yeah, right. And so it's this God who's trying to say, Moses, You recognize anything here? You should have one standard. If anybody kills people, they're going to be killed. Do you know anybody who's killed anybody? Moses at all? Right. And and so. In a lot of ways, right. Like. Maybe the text happens and the text means to us what the text means because of a failure of empathy to intercede and protect people and think again like. That's the move for interpreters of this text to make. I think Moses could have interceded, and I think we could intercede. Yeah, because a lot of texts from Leviticus are used to condemn folk. Yeah, like, I don't have to tell you. And maybe we could step up in this passage where Think. God is really giving Moses a lot of opportunities. Have that one standard. You intercede for your folks. Do you want to intercede for this person who might also be your folk? And Moses says no, right? Like after all the laws, it's not. They don't put him to death earlier in the thing. It's all the laws that they trot out. And then they take him outside and put him to that. And I wonder if that wasn't a missed opportunity. So maybe there's death to protect people. Like an example should be made to keep the rest of the community in line for safety. Maybe there's death because it protects God, but maybe there's death because, like, humans didn't do enough to say, Hey, there shouldn't be so much death. And these are things that we see in the text, right? This isn't coming out of nowhere.

Katie Langston: Yeah, right.

Cory Driver: So maybe any of those.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: So, Katie, since this is your question, What? Yeah. How does that.

Katie Langston: Yeah, well, a few. I mean, it's all really helpful. You know, one of the thoughts that I've had as we've been talking, first of all, is just like, how how the idea of like, God is the power plant or whatever, you know, that's not the most comfortable idea. I think sometimes we like to think of like buddy Jesus, you know, or like I've, you know, God, God's my best friend. And like, you know, maybe. Maybe. Maybe God is like actually super duper powerful. And we don't always internalize that. And God is not a human and God is, you know, bigger and more. And and more dangerous in a way than we're like totally comfortable with and like buddy Jesus culture. So that's one thing. But the other

Cory Driver: But it's the intimacy that's the danger it is.

Katie Langston: Right? Right. It's the proximity.

Cory Driver: Is far away. No problem.

Katie Langston: Right, right, right, right.

Cory Driver: But if God wants to move in, right.

Katie Langston: That's where things get. That's where things get. Yeah. So that's that's one thing that I'm, you know, that I'm thinking about. But then the other that piece about. You know the human. The human failure of imagination. The human failure to respond with mercy. Yeah. And maybe that's part of why so many things. Were prescribed. Like why? They were like, Yeah, we'll kill you for that. But I think it's also true, Kathryn, I think I've heard you say this, that actually there's not a ton of evidence that like, people did get killed all the time. Like, usually it's like, all right, we'll impose a fine or something like that. Like even though it's there in the text, it's like, well, yeah, that's a lot. And it's.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Noting. Right, right. And I'll defer to Cory on history. But by the time of the rabbis, there's not capital punishment. There's there's very strict rules about, you know, witnesses to, you know, to there have to be witnesses for any kind of punishment to happen. And capital punishment is is pretty much ruled out by the time of the rabbis. It's also worth noting in verse 19, if we're still in Leviticus 24, anyone who maims and others shall suffer the same injury and we turn fracture for a fracture for eye tooth for two, right? The injury inflicted is the injury to be suffered. And maybe our listeners have heard this already, but you know, we use that term for an eye and tooth for a tooth to talk about vengeance. Yeah, really, it's it's a restriction against vengeance that is overdone. So eye for an eye, not life for an eye. Right, right, right, right, right. Tooth for a tooth. Not, you know. Again, life for a tooth. The the punish

Katie Langston: The punishment Has to fit the crime.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, right. So you shouldn't overdo the vengeance. So it's actually a merciful kind of law that I. For an iron tooth. For a tooth? Yeah.

Cory Driver: Yeah. And so it's specifically that mercy and that like. Corralling of wrath and punishment that intercedes between the deed and the punishment. And yeah, very much to Kathryn's point, just really want to underscore that Judaism very quickly finds ways to say, look, we we do not want to be killing people. Yeah. But this is this is not and like the most god loving and neighbor loving thing we can do is interpret these texts and create systems so that they are not harmful. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I think there's a message for Christians there. Yeah.

Katie Langston: Even as we acknowledge the power and the difference and all that. Oh, God, yeah. That's cool.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah. And this is where the term the fear of the Lord can be helpful as well. Right. I had a student years ago who said that she talked she thought about God as an old grandpa on a porch in a rocking chair, you know, just waiting to welcome her home. Or even she even used the term teddy bear. I'm like, Yeah, I think you want to revise that a little bit, right? God is. God is holy and God is holy. Other. And we have to have kind of like approaching a power plant again. The fear of the Lord has to do with knowing that God is God and we are not, and that God is not us. Right? And so there has to be a kind of reverence, a kind of respect, even a kind of fear. In the sense of, you know, being. Yeah. Not presuming on God and having that proper respect. Now, as Christians, we also say that God is most fully revealed in Jesus on the cross, suffering and dying for us and being resurrected. Right? So this God, as Cory was talking about, this Holy other God, this Holy God moves in desires to be in relationship with us. And for the for Leviticus, it's in the Tabernacle. It's that kind of physical manifestation of God. For Christians, it's as John one says, right? God who, who tabernacles with us, God who became flesh and moves in into the neighborhood, as Eugene Peterson puts it in the message. But that same that word in John one, the word became flesh and lived among us. The word is the same word used for the tabernacle, lived among us, tabernacle among us. So there's a there's a kind of foretaste of that in Leviticus with God in the tabernacle that is made fully manifest and in God in Christ, God and God in the flesh incarnate.

S5: So if so. We're drawing that scarlet thread. Oh, sorry.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: No, no, go ahead. Go ahead, Cory.

Cory Driver: Like we just want to say God always wants to be intimately present, right? We we should not do the sin of marcion. Right. And say old God, bad new God. Great. Right, right, right. Like God always wants to be present. And that's where the issues come up. And certainly the gospel is full of issues that come up when God wants to be really, really present. And the Hebrew Bible very much the same. And the the the spark, the reason for the issues coming up is because. God lives among us and wants to be present with God's people and. Yes, that causes any number of effects. Right. And if it's Acts or if it's Matthew or if it's Leviticus. Right. It's the same issue. God loves the people and wants to be present among the people and doesn't want to be distant, but God is God and the people are the people. But like that love. Provides for a presence. Yeah, that's where it gets interesting.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And that's that's the gospel of it, too. Right. The God that God desires to be in relationship with the people with us and that God comes down to us. But that was super helpful. We have gone on.

Katie Langston: Yes. Thank you, guys.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Thanks. We probably probably should wrap this up. But again, thank you so much, Corey, for your insights. They're really, really helpful and thank you to our listeners. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Enter the Bible Podcast. Get high quality courses, commentaries, resources, videos and reflections at EntertheBible.org . Thank you for joining us and we look forward to talking with you again. Take care.