The retirement of Ben Stokes marks a significant juncture in the annals of English cricket, as we reflect on his illustrious career and the profound impact he has had on the sport. Stokes, a player synonymous with pivotal moments and remarkable performances, has not only redefined expectations for an all-rounder but has also become a talisman for English cricket. In this discussion, we delve into the multifaceted legacy of Stokes—examining not only his stellar contributions on the field but also the circumstances surrounding his abrupt retirement. The reactions to his departure reveal a complex interplay of emotions, ranging from surprise to sadness, underscoring the void his absence will create within the English team. As we navigate through the implications of his retirement, we ponder what the future holds for both Stokes and English cricket, contemplating leadership transitions and the potential pathways for the next generation of players.

Hello and welcome to the Last Wicked.

I'm your host, Benny.

Thank you for joining us.

And as always, I'm joined by my fellow co host, Mayank.

Hey, Mike.

Hey, Benny.

I guess we can go ahead and just call him our third chair or essentially our new co host, Ben Brett.

Welcome back.

Thanks, guys.

Pleasure to be back.

Yeah.

And we have got quite a momentous day that I think a lot of people saw coming.

Maybe not in the fashion it all ended, but we're here to talk about the retirement of Ben Stokes.

So we'll just start with you, Ben.

I mean, there's a lot to dissect, you know, not just the end, but really the legacy of Stokes, you know, what his time in the England shirt meant, not just for English cricket, but for cricket in general.

And there's been a lot of talk, a lot of chatter about what has transpired over the last 12 months, really leading up to the events of the last few days.

But what is your immediate reaction to the news of Stokes retirement?

My immediate reaction was surprise.

And then I actually felt quite emotional about it.

I was quite sad for a few hours and then I think obviously those feelings got kind of subsumed into the, the chaos of that, that Sunday, what, what transpired with England's innings and then kind of feel like that left a slightly bitter taste in the mouth by the end.

Yeah, and I did read your substack piece on that and we'll talk about that in a bit.

But Mayank, what, what were your, what is your immediate reaction?

Yeah, definitely surprised.

It's.

I was reading cricket at all and one of the opinions there was the three people running England cricket were, you know, Rob Key, Baz McCollum and Ben Stokes.

And probably the one who is least likely to go so quickly is the one that has left.

So it is definitely a bit of a surprise.

And of course, the whole way that it panned out, the nightclub incident getting, you know, dropped for the second Test, all of that, it just, yeah, it just left a really weird taste.

Like it felt like the team was not, you know, as they were not as backing him as much as they should have.

And of course we've heard rumors even down under with the Ashes about differences between McCullum and Stokes.

So yeah, it just, it just felt like there's something missing and they were not seeing eye to eye.

A player of Stokes quality will definitely be missed.

England were, you know, lucky to have a player like him and the balance that he provided.

So definitely a big miss from England, English standpoint.

And Just Test cricket standpoint, he definitely brought a lot to the, to the.

Competition and we can talk, let's start at the end before we get into Stokes career.

Ben, you know, one of the things that you had written about in your most recent post was how essentially his last act as a captain, and this is echoed by quite a few other know, commentators and other people who have been following English cricket, is that this is not the way it should have ended for Stokes.

It became a little bit more or a little less about the team and the cricket and more about Stokes himself.

The announcement during, in the middle of the Test when it's still kind of poised or definitely leaning towards New Zealand but still in the balance and then you know, the approach of the English batters in that fourth innings, you know, when confronted with a challenging total, it, it was very confounding to a lot, a lot of people.

But you know, it was interesting that you know, Jo Rut was essentially saying we wanted to create chaos.

Wasn't very convincing for me.

But you, yeah, I'm curious to hear, you know, just to expand on what you had written.

What are your thoughts on how they went about it?

Well, they certainly created chaos, but I'm not sure it was the, the type that they, that they intended.

I, I thought it was, was quite astonishing really the way it was announced in the middle of a, you know, in the middle of an innings, let alone in the middle of a, of a Test match.

And then to promote himself to open and then play like he did.

I think I thought it was a. Astonishingly ego driven really.

Like, you know, I would forgive Ben Stokes almost anything after the shift that he's put in for, for English cricket and the, the moments that he's given us.

But I thought that was quite a, quite astonishingly ego driven and, and really a bit of a misstep.

I mean, you know, like if he'd scored 100 and when they'd won the game then, then great.

But that was really unlikely.

You saw how hard Daryl Mitchell had to work for his century earlier in the day.

You know, the pitch was a, a wearing fourth day pitch and, and Bulls were, were doing, doing a bit and I, I just think yeah, it was ultimately almost disrespectful to, to, to the opponents.

I think disrespectful to, to the fans and, and, and also disrespectful to his own team.

I mean you think about Emilio Gay playing in his first series, his third Test match and he's going to shuffle down the order On a whim, basically to accommodate this kind of, you know, circus show that, that we were treated to.

Yeah, I think I would rather have seen the Top order play since, you know, like the, the big chases that we saw, for example, last year against, against India, they chased 350 plus at Headingley, I think it was.

And, and you know, Top Order played sensibly.

Everybody played their parts, Stokes played his part with the bat and, and they won.

And I think, you know, that would have been a fitting exit, not, not what we saw.

Right.

I mean, he did say that he was already thinking about this after the Ashes and just before the series, that he'd almost lost his love for the game or lost a fight to mind.

What did you think about, I guess the timing of it when you already know you're, you don't have that love for the game anymore.

So why wait till kind of like a middle of a series?

Or do you think the events of, you know, the hold that nightclub incident where he and Atkinson essentially were suspended for a game.

Do you think that is really more the reason for this kind of abrupt, it almost feels like a retirement made in a huff rather than a well thought out, well planned out, you know, let's make sure there's a smooth transition.

I, I definitely think that it's all got, it's all about the nightclub incident and how ECB reacted to it.

I, I know that obviously the Ashes down under was really rough and, and all of that and there was a lot of public fallout, but to be fair, like, all that focus was on Rob key and Baz McCollum.

It was on Zach Crowley, some of the other players who had not performed, who have since been dropped.

There was very little personally on Ben Stokes because I think England obviously understood his value as a player, as an all rounder and even as a captain.

So I had even heard things of, you know, hey, he should try and extend to 20, 27 hatches at home.

And like, I'd read all these columns which talked about all of, there's possible, you know, possibility for him to extend his career that much.

Again, I don't know if that was something that he was actually thinking about, but the whole nightclub incident, the way it was handled, I, yeah, it just is a very weird situation because it's a curfew that is installed by him along with McCallum, which I find that ludicrous.

Like, these are professional cricketers.

They don't need, you know, you need to be in bed by 9pm Type of guidelines.

But clearly if you do set a guideline.

Us captain are supposed to follow it.

So there was definitely a mistake on Ben Stokes parts.

But having said that, he had just won a test match.

Should he be given some leeway as captain of the team?

Having won a well fought game?

Possibly.

And, and it didn't feel like ECB and, and McCallum and others really, you know, had his back.

So I do think that is really why it happened all of a sudden.

Otherwise I, I definitely don't think it would have been at the end of this series even if it was sometime this year.

It would probably be, you know, well announced well in advance.

I think the one piece that I always feel about Ben Stokes is obviously he's a great cricketer, but he's also a good showman.

Like he just, every time he gets out it feels like he just got out by the, you know, ball of the century or something.

So I feel like a character like that would, would prob in advance and you know, would like to get attention and just, you know, get the right accolades that, that he deserves when he's going out.

So definitely had to do with that incident.

Ben, based purely on his cricketing skills or where he's at in terms of form and fitness, do you think this was the time for him to go or do you think he still had some more time?

I'd like to think he had some more time.

I think as, as time has gone on he's become more of a bowling all rounder and less of it.

I think when he started he was more of a batting all rounder and then ended up being more of a bowling all rounder.

But I think, you know, even in the, you know, the, the past 12 months he's been probably England's most reliable bowler.

Yeah, and to have some, to have your most reliable bowler who can also bat in the, in the top six or seven is incredibly valuable.

And we, we saw in the second Test when him and Atkinson weren't selected, how that affected the balance of England's team.

They didn't feel able to play a specialist spinner because they wanted to play four quicks.

And so they, they had to, they had to make do with Root and Bethel bowling the bowling, the spin so they could play four quicks and it's that kind of that balance and flexibility that having that all rounder brings is kind of really hard certainly for England to replace.

It's difficult to see, you know, anybody in England who could fulfill that all rounder role to anywhere near the level of Stokes at the moment.

You Know, maybe you've got Sam Curran, he doesn't play much Red Bull cricket anymore.

Or if they want to go down a slightly different route, maybe like Rehan Ahmed as a spinner who can bat in the top six and more of a sort of Washington Sundar role or, or similar.

But yeah, I think he, as a, purely as a player, he'll be very hard to replace.

And I think he, he definitely still merited his place in the side, though increasingly as a, as a bowler rather than a, a batsman.

And I think, you know, England were recognizing that by swapping him and, and Smith in the order with Smith at 6 and, and Stokes at 7 in the, in the most recent series.

I think the, the aspect, the reason it compounds England's problems is they've already pushed Anderson, James Anderson out, who was, yes, he was not the fittest, but he was still taking wickets at home, you know, whenever he was playing.

Stuart Broader tired.

So suddenly England are, you know, like in the second Test, I think they had 193, that 11 and 70 or 80 of them were from Joe Root or something like that.

50 Or 60 of them were from Joe Root.

So essentially now it's a bowling lineup with barely any Test experience.

So he definitely leaves a big hole as a bowler considering what has happened in the last, you know, 36 months where they've moved away from Broad, they've pushed Wilks and Anderson into retirement.

So, so all of that really just made his role even more important, particularly with the old ball.

I mean, I think that he was anyways doing well even when those experienced guys were around.

So, yeah, it's going to be a big miss from that standpoint.

You know, the.

I think it's worth talking about because we, we're, you know, we're talking about the hole that's going to be left by Ben Stokes's retirement on the team.

When you look purely at his numbers, you know, probably someone who's going to be new to following cricket probably in about 10 years or so.

Let's say they look at Ben Stokes numbers and might be like, what, what.

What's the big deal?

What, what's the big deal about this player?

And I think that is obviously not going to be taking into account his impact on, not just performances on the field, but just on, you know, what he, what he meant to English cricket, what he meant to like English sport too, I think we can say.

And there are not a lot of people who can kind of transcend the game to be like this personality, this outsized personality.

So in terms of talking about what he has meant for English cricket and beyond, I think Ben, you're the best person to ask beyond cricket because even McKellen kind of brought this up that he transcends cricket.

And so what are your thoughts on that?

What is the true impact of Ben Stokes in the English psyche?

I think very, very much like Flintoff and both of them before him, he's one of few cricketers that has the potential to kind of, you know, be front page news as well as, as well as back page news in the, in the papers, you know, and, and yeah, sometimes for the wrong reasons.

You know, the, the way he had such an impact in those kind of clutch moments.

I don't think you can, you can't capture that by looking at the, the stats on, on Crick info.

And again, very much like Flintoff, you look at Flint off stats and think well what's, what's the big deal here?

But you know, he would turn, turn a game for you and you know, I think if you, if you had to pick somebody to battle bowl for your life, Stokes would be top of my list.

Yeah, I think Stokes, I, I do agree that I think there's something about, yeah, I kept thinking about Ravendra Jadeja when I was like thinking about this outline.

What are we going to talk about when we talk about Ben Stokes?

Because they are, you know, all rounders, both have done really well in the last decade.

So it's, it's obvious that comparisons do come up and the thought that came to my mind with Ben Stokes was Jadeja is the, you know, solid.

If I take a car example, like a German car which is going to give you day in, day out performance without, you know, giving too many ups and downs and Ben Stokes is like the sports car which is going to get your heart racing on times and it's going to absolutely disappoint you at other times.

But it's just theater.

It's just a theater of pen.

Stokes like Jaredja will never excite me that same way.

Even though, you know, watching him bowl and Test cricket has been amazing.

Like just his consistency but it's just you expect him to show up and do exactly that day in and day out and you know, not the center of attention.

That's just what he has become and that's why I still think rate him above Ben Stokes as a all rounder.

But.

But yeah, the moment that Ben Stokes could capture was, you know, second to none.

You gave two examples which are probably the highlights of his career.

The headingly test, the one day final, but one day World cup final.

But even in the T20 World cup, the T20 was not a format that he mastered to the extent some of the others did.

It felt like he was, you know, in and around the England team, but not as consistent.

He played a very anchor like innings at the end.

So not a T20 knock but, but he got the team over.

So just one of those guys who, you know, was somehow, just when things were tough, he would just somehow turn up and.

But until then he would just kind of like coast along and as if he just couldn't focus until it was really needed.

So it's a very interesting character from that standpoint.

Yeah, almost like he need, he needed a crisis to, to kind of wring that extra 10 or 20% of performance out of himself.

What I was also curious from your standpoint, Ben, and you know, curious from what England fans think about him as a personality.

And I say that because he is captain.

He was captain and.

But he was a very different personality compared to some of the others who have led before.

You look at Alistair Cook, we look at Joe Root before him.

These are folks who were again middle class families but eventually got scholarships and went to private school.

You never really heard them getting into trouble on a tour.

They were the well disciplined, sort of put in your hard yards and do your work kind of people.

But Ben Stokes has a very different background.

He left education at 16, never went to private school, of course, but even his public school, or I don't know what England called it, something else.

But even the school that he went to, he left at 16 to focus on cricket.

He had run ins with all the time.

So he was always somebody who was kind of living on the edge.

I almost feel like that made him a little bit more of a people's favorite.

He may not have been an administrator's favorite, like ECB didn't always like him, just like we saw in the second Test, but.

But it just made him somebody that the people could relate to more.

Do you think that's a fair Assessment,.

Ben, it's an interesting question or point, really.

I think it's probably true that not being your typical kind of public schoolboy is kind of endeared him to the public in.

In a way, I think maybe people find it easier to relate to him.

I think also we tend to like people who are kind of, yeah, I guess a little bit rogue.

Again, a bit.

A bit.

A bit like less polished, big personality, not polished, makes mistakes.

I think people can really relate to that.

Again, like Flintof and Botham before him as these kind of talismanic, bigger than, you know, larger than life allrounders, I think, you know, and I guess, you know, that that might endear him to the.

To the nation, but it doesn't necessarily endear him to the high ups in the ECB in the same way, perhaps.

Maybe there's a bit of a.

Still a bit of a snobbish element in the.

In the English cricket establishment, which kind of, you know, looks down on that.

I'm not saying that necessarily played a part in the ECB's treatment of Stokes in recent weeks and months, but, yeah, I think it could be a factor.

Yeah.

And I think the other aspect that came to mind is he, he worked well as a man manager.

You know, people who played under him spoke highly of him as how he managed the team and his players.

And it almost felt like I was drawing parallels with, you know, the likes of Amazoni, because, again, very unconventional captain, obviously, Dhoni, not known for getting in trouble or anything like that, but was definitely a step, an unusual step for Indian cricket.

They were obviously good achievers.

Ganguly's Booker and Dravid and company, they were, they achieved a lot in international cricket, but they were made in a different mold than somebody like Ms. Dhoni, who was a little bit unconventional and, And I guess I was trying to think just from a captaincy perspective.

Sometimes that unconventional aspect also really helps because there are teammates who, you know, can really relate to you and it's not necessarily follow the leader.

It's more.

There's more camaraderie and there's more, you know, they just gel better.

And that was another aspect that I was thinking of.

Again, this is just my take from pretty far away, but curious what you've heard or read and in autobiographies or any interviews that players have done who played under.

I think it's been Clear from watching England under Stokes that his man management was exceptional, his leadership was exceptional.

And I think, yeah, that's been backed up by lots of different interviews that I've read with, with players and, you know, senior players like Anderson and, and Broad.

But almost everybody has said that they love playing under Stokes.

I think that those players would run through a brick wall for him if he asked them to.

His tactics were somewhat unorthodox.

Think that there's been plenty of funkier field settings and fielders in, in kind of weird and wonderful positions and I think that was largely successful.

My only gripe with his tactics, and this isn't restricted to Stokes, it's England in general for the last few years was kind of overuse of that short ball tactic, especially to lower order batters, where I'd rather you just aim for the top of off.

But yeah, I think you can point to more than one game that England won that they really shouldn't have won.

Just purely down to Stokes his captaincy.

The one that sticks in my mind is Ralph Hindi in.

The declaration at the right time and then the kind of almost herculean bowling performance to get the win as the, as the light was fading.

But there's no way that England should have been able to win that game on that pitch.

But I think that was purely Stokes inspired, that one.

And that's probably, that's still probably England's best performance under, under Stokes.

For me, it's kind of the perfect encapsulation of basball if you do right and there were plenty of, plenty of instances of them doing it wrong obviously.

But you know that, that one was, that one was the one that will stand out as being like almost the perfect game of how you, you know, play like that and win a game that you had no right to win, really.

Benny, what about you?

What were in your mind, England's best results under Stokes and the captain?

I think more than the results because obviously we've talked about this previously.

If you break down the mythos of basketball, which really Stokes, his captaincy is always going to be just linked to it.

And the fact is there's been a lot of sparkling events rather than wins.

But if you go back to the beginning, the early days of Stokes's captaincy and this marriage with basketball and yeah, those electrifying chases, you know, just teams just going crazy.

I saw the scorecard, it was a, you know, the game against Pakistan, one of the games against Pakistan, where Crawley, Duckett, a couple of other batter, scored centuries, England had racked up 500 plus and 75 overs, which is insane now because nobody bats like that.

Even in the era of T20, teams cannot consistently do that.

But England did.

I mean, that was obviously like the peak of it.

But I think more than results, I think Stokes under Stokes, England were a team, a test team to watch.

Whether you like them or not was beside the point.

You knew that if you were watching them play, it was going to be interesting, it was going to be eventful, it was going to be entertaining.

And much like Marvel movies, which started off well, they are kind of cratering off now because they're going up kind of overdoing what they were really good at, which is where England cricket finds itself now.

But I think for a brief point in time, you know, for probably like about two years, I think the big, the biggest thing that Stokes the captain did was Transformer team, which had won, I think, what, one game in 16 Tests under Joe Root, Suddenly they were winning games, or they were at least creating doubt in the mind, in the minds of the opposition captains.

When they said, you know, these targets, they were like, wait, could England actually chase us down?

There is a small possibility which would not have happened under a Joe Root.

So I think more than results, I think he just changed the belief or the mindset of the players.

And obviously it will forever be debatable about the merits of that approach and has it caused more, more harm than good to English cricket.

But yeah, I just liked just the change in mindset more than anything else under Stokes the captain.

It was incredibly exciting, wasn't it, for those first two years?

Yeah, I think, I think the problem, the problem is that, you know, after, after a couple of years, it's, it's no longer a surprise to the opposition when you, when you play like that.

Well, if you're not winning at the series, you know, at one point it's like, well, all of this is entertaining, but where are the results?

You know?

Yeah, I think it all, it, it all ended up being a, a parody of itself almost by the end.

And, and you know, it.

In, in that sense, Sunday was a fitting kind of final act to that, that it kind of, you know, imploded in, in a, in a farce of a sort of parody of itself.

But yeah, let's not forget how terrible England were when, when Stokes and McCollum took over.

And gosh, that first two years was an exciting time to be an England fan.

Yeah.

I was gonna say that fifth best win loss ratio for England doesn't stand.

Stand out as if, you know, he's the best captain in the world.

But the context of it is super important.

You both mentioned Joe Root and his era, and of course, nothing about Joe Root himself.

He just found himself in a weird era with players not being at the top of their league, the coaches changing as well, and just, you know, lack of good strategy.

And so that led to a lot of losses.

And I, I think from that point, even though what will remain one of the failures of Stoves, the captain is not being able to win against the two big teams of his time, India and Australia, home or away.

So I think that'll still remain one of the failures.

But there's no doubt that he challenged both those teams on occasions.

There were times when he was visiting when England was touring India last time.

There were times when Ashwin and Jadeja were taking a beating on the back of, you know, Duckett or Pope.

And there were times when you thought, oh, wait, they might be in here for a fight.

Of course, they couldn't do it consistently enough over a four or five test match series, which is why India and Australia prevailed.

But they definitely had their moments and they made sure that Ashwin and Jadeja couldn't just show up and, you know, turn their arm over like they do for every other team.

They had to think about field, they had to think about strategies, they had to think about where to bowl very specifically for each player.

Results wise.

Yes, not the, you know, most outstanding result, As I said, fifth best win, loss, but I do think that 350 plus cheeses were, you know, quite outstanding.

There were a number of them, I think at least two against India, which I try my best to forget, but.

But there were definitely two.

The fact that they tried to score quickly, disrupt the field attacks, make sure there were fewer slips in place, just fewer chances created, and more importantly, the fact that they were scoring so quickly, they would ensure that there's no second new ball in the pitcher and that ensures that they're able to score off those final few runs with the old ball.

So I think they were doing that really well.

I honestly thought that was their plan for Sunday and I would have been completely fine with that except for the whole, you know, to Ben's point about Stokes promoting himself over a guy, a debutant who just scored 250s for you in the last two tests.

So I, I think that that piece was probably unnecessary, but other than that, I actually like their approach of Going, you know, hell for leather right away.

And.

And just surprising the opposition in a 350 chase.

Because, yeah, if you're 200 for two and.

And suddenly the top three bowlers have bowled out or are tired or taking a break, then of course, the opposition is sweating as well.

I do think, to.

To Ben's point, you know, about them winning games which they had no business winning, they also did the opposite.

They lost games which they had no business losing.

And I.

That's probably one of the reasons why I was always skeptical of, you know, the whole basketball piece, because there were so many times when I was like, oh, this should be a walk in the park.

And they completely messed it up.

And one of the results that stands out for me was the Ashes Down Under.

It was.

I believe it was the first or second test, but in the first, in that test, both teams had been bowled out once, and England in the third innings were effectively 100 for 1.

I think it was 100 for 1 or 110 for 1, something like that.

They were batting really well.

And this was not an Australian attack which had Cummins, Hazelwood, they were not playing that game.

So it was Stark, Scott Boland and then a number of new bowlers.

So they were, you know, short of experience, and all they needed to do was watch out and play out Scott Boland and they would be able to score at 250, 300 total, which would have been pretty challenging.

And instead they tried to go after him and ended up getting bowled out for 160 odd.

And.

And Australia won that test very, very comfortably.

So I think that was one instance where I was just scratching my head because I was like, wow, that was so unnecessary.

You know, it was commitment to the cause of scoring quick or basball or whatever you want to call it, to a fault.

And.

And that is where, yeah, I just felt like there were quite a few games that they just should have easily won.

And it's really one of those, like, it's.

It's, you know, what do you pick?

Do you pick a maverick who gives you freak results, or do you pick a consistent team?

It's.

That's probably the question that always came to mind when I was watching this team under Ben Stokes.

You can probably see the pained look on my face, my ankles.

You talked about that test.

It was the first test in Perth, and, yeah, we really should have won that one.

And I think if we had the series was.

Was there for the taking against that bowling attack.

That one.

That one really hurt.

Yeah, I generally Thought that when, you know, Pat Cummins was ruled out, Josh Hazelwood was ruled out until they were there, right, Thought Australia was going to be favorites.

But when they were ruled out, I was like, oh wow, now it's anybody's game because the two key bowlers are gone and Australia's base bench is not as amazing as their top four.

So there was definitely scope.

And yeah, just the way that series fizzled out was quite a surprise to me.

And I think in many ways that hastened the end for Ben Stokes because you could see that really they had been building up, you know, Stokes and McCollum had been building up to that Ashes in Australia and once that slipped out of their grasp, it just seemed like that's what Stokes was referring to.

Like the fight just left him and he really did not, he did not have anything left in the tank.

And so, yeah, it's just England under McCollums and Stokes.

I think it's just been a fascinating, you know, era because they have all these incredible highs and then all these really stunning lows and there's so many what ifs and you know, you talk about the Ashes, but then there's also that fifth Test, you know, England versus India where Brooke and Root were motoring along and then they just collapsed.

And so there's just so many instances like that where, and I think the England team has bought into that, where they probably convinced themselves, well, this is the approach.

It's, we're going to lose a few games here and there but you know, it's also going to give us our best chance of winning and well, the results are there for everyone to see.

And, and so that's where England is right now.

You know, with Stokes out, I think the next question will be, okay, what happens to McCollum?

What happens to Key?

But before that, very quickly, I mean we can't, we cannot talk about Stokes, his legacy and his retirement without picking your favorite Ben Stokes performance.

Ben, there's quite a few to pick from, but if you are forced to pick just one favorite performance of Stokes, which one would you pick?

It's the obvious one.

That, that was, I don't think I've ever seen a better Test innings.

Right.

You need to single handedly turn certain defeat into, into victory in the way he did, you know, batting so cautiously and so slowly for, you know, on that penultimate evening.

And then, and then what he did as he was running out of partners and that final partnership with Jack Leach, that was, that was ridiculous.

And the fact that it was against Australia to keep the series alive.

Yeah, that has to be number one.

I think a couple of others I'd highlight aside from the World cup final would be the 100 in Perth against Pete Mitchell.

Johnson at the kind of start of his career was excellent.

But yeah, the headingly above, above all else for me.

Yeah, same here.

I think that in a nutshell is what Ben Stokes was right.

He just thrives in the drama.

He just thrives in this crisis and you know, talking about making it all about himself like that was it, you know, he just took it on and created something that was.

I don't think any of us who watch it in real time will ever forget.

Mike, what about you?

I mean it's, it's hard to disagree that that innings and that partnership got Jack Leach.

Apparently it got Jack Leach lens contract because it became so famous that he's wearing specs and batting one not out.

Yeah but, but I think if, if I had to pick something else, it was just.

I think I really enjoyed watching him bowl in the last five years or so is to do.

I think Ben mentioned this is batting was definitely not as solid post Covid like he had some, some good innings of course, but not the same consistency.

But his bowling was really enjoyable.

I think he, you know, he would come on with the new ball and he would have a good outswinger, would mix it up and he has a good bouncer.

So all of that like always enjoyable.

It felt like even with the old ball he could make things interesting and it never was.

Yeah, well, the bad battle was settled.

Now it's going to be easy pickings.

It was never easy with Ben Stokes holding the ball in his hand.

So I definitely enjoyed his bowling a lot more than his batting, apart from of course that heading retest and I, I honestly think that his bowling gets less credit just because most of his heroics are with the bat.

So all of these innings which are remembered more watched by a lot more people are with the bat.

So I do think his bowling gets a little bit less credit than it deserves.

Yeah, there are quite a few to pick from but what's next, Ben?

What do you think Ben Stokes?

What's the future now for Ben Stokes?

Do you think he's just going to go back, go back to playing for Durham?

Do you think he's going to move into broadcasting coaching or be coaxed out of retirement for the next Ashes.

That thought did cross my mind actually, like I do.

He spoke this week about how he, when he was not selected for the second Test he went back and played for Durham and how he just kind of felt himself really kind of enjoying that environment a lot more and appreciating it a lot more than he appreciated the England environment.

And so it does, it does make me think that he, he may well go back and, and play for Durham and yeah, who knows if he makes a few runs and takes a few wickets.

April, May, next year and then the, you know, he famously texted Moen and just with Ashes question mark and brought Moe for retirement.

You know, maybe, maybe someone will yeah, Harry, Harry Brooke captain or text him and just be, you know, Ashes question mark.

And I, I'm.

There's part of me that thinks that he would find it quite difficult to turn that down.

The chance to be that kind of.

I mean he already has shown hero.

He already has shown that under the right circumstances he could make himself, you know, he could come out of retirement and for a good cause, you know, like a woke up definitely for the Ashes, why not?

But who knows what the English cricketing landscape is going to look like by then.

Which leads to the next big question.

What's next for English cricket?

You know, there's a captaincy drama.

I mean is Harry, but Harry Brooke going to be the next captain or do they look for someone else?

What's going to be Next for Brandon McCallum and Rob Key?

Are they going to still be able to hang on?

What do you think?

What's the direction that you think English cricket is leaning towards?

All up in the air, isn't it?

I think Key's position looks untenable to me.

McCollum's position is certainly for the Red Bull stuff is, is shaky but then, you know, I think it's hot.

It's hard to know which order things happen in or does it all happen at once with this sort of regime change really choosing McCollum's successor would be keys job.

But then if keys going then keys that would be keys successor's job to choose McCollum's successor and you who goes first.

I, I personally think they, with Stokes retiring I think we can, we can call the basball experiment over and I would like to see them appoint a sensible, more Andy Flower style coach who can instill a bit of hard work and less golf and try and win some.

Who would be your picks?

If you were asked to pick someone to replace key and McCollum, who would be your picks?

It's really hard to.

Because he.

You wonder who would.

Who would take it the job as well, is a question.

Yeah, but who would you want to offer it to?

I guess I was gonna say RCB have taken, like, two.

Two men who are very capable, like mobilebot and Andy Clara, like, both very capable of both of these roles, having both done that.

Those roles previously and come back with more experience.

I've read mixed reports about Andy Flower back in, you know, Kevin Peterson's day and his intensity and all of that, but I'm sure he's matured a lot more having worked with franchise cricket quite a bit.

Yeah, but, yeah, I think it's one of those things like these roles are such that it's not, you know, there's not a structure to it.

It's not like, hey, if you do well at Yorkshire, you're probably in line for this next, you know, England job that it's not usually as straightforward because Rob Key was selected out of nowhere.

Like, he was obviously just a TV commentator, knowledgeable one, but.

But nonetheless, very limited administrative experience when he was pulled into the job.

So, yeah, it feels like it's.

It can be really random when.

How these decisions can be made.

I think Mo Bobat is a really good shout, actually, for Keys.

John.

It would be really hard to get them out of a cushy job at rcb, especially with regards to where RCB are right now.

They are the cusp of, you know, probably going on a really good run.

And so it might be really hard to get them out of there.

Be more highly paid and you only have to do it for two months.

Exactly.

And.

And it's.

They also do work with London Spirit.

So it's the same team that worked with London Spirit, men and women and then rcb.

So.

So, yeah,.

You know, I.

We probably should talk about the fact that England kind of find themselves in this situation because of, you know, that.

Which we alluded to the nightclub incident.

And I think it's fair to ask, you know, because we talked about Stokes and how that was managed, but for both of you, do you think that this was managed well from, you know, ECB's perspective, or what could they have done better?

Let's go with that.

I'm a little bit torn on this.

I think part of me thinks it was just a bit naive of Stokes and Atkinson to put themselves in that position.

But mainly, I think the whole curfew thing was just a bit ridiculous, to be honest.

These as Mayank said earlier, these are grown men.

No laws were broken.

I've got no problem with the players being out having a drink after a win.

You know, it was a week and a half until the next Test.

If they want to go out and have a few beers, I think that's, that's fair enough.

I had no problems with them being drunk in Noosa in the middle of the Ashes.

It was a mid scheduled break.

Yeah.

If it was clear that alcohol was negatively impacting the performance on the field, that's another matter.

But you know, if I want to go and get smashed on my own free time, that's my business.

If I turn up at work drunk or too hungover to do my job properly, that's where it becomes a problem.

So I think.

But this is something that the next captain, coach or administrator is going to have to deal with.

And it seems like this is the current culture of English cricket or do you think that's just overblown?

And this is probably other teams even like Australia probably have very similar culture, but we don't really hear about it.

Nobody in Australia seemed to have a problem with Travis Head appearing visibly drunk on various occasions after win.

So I don't know why our critters are suddenly expected to be guardians of the nation's moral fiber.

It's kind of almost Victorian and I don't know when that changed because you know, it used to be accepted that sports people were also humans and had a right to make their own choices in their personal life.

You know, how would the likes of both them or you know, from other sports, George Best or James Hunt get on nowadays with this scrutiny?

So both them sticking his ore into this debate a couple of weeks ago and I thought that is quite rich coming from, from him and what he used to get up to, you know, turn it turning up at the ground two minutes before the start of play, having not had a wink sleep, you know, in the middle of a test match.

Yeah.

You know, there was a good article by Greg Chappell on this on Crick info and he was arguing that cricketers contract is an agreement to perform on the field.

It's not a vow of abstinence or sobriety or even politeness.

They're paid to play cricket.

So as long as they play cricket and do well at that, that's my view.

So I don't really think asking whether there's a drinking problem or a drinking culture is coming at it from the wrong angle.

It's more like why do we expect them not to go out and have a beer.

Yeah, I think what I.

As I was thinking about this as well, my thought was, well, England in general has a drinking culture, so why would the players not drink like they're, you know, elite athletes in their mid-20s?

Why would they not be drinking and having a good time?

What I was instead thinking of is, is there a discipline problem, though?

And this is probably the one that more interesting to me because, yeah, I mean, of course, you're right.

We should not be trying to make them, you know, the moral standard of.

Of the world and.

Or of the country.

But.

But the fact that they require curfew times and then they consistently blast past that, those curfew times, because there's just.

In the last 24 months, there have been five to seven different incidents where people have been found in trouble at nightclubs and late at night and all of that.

So the discipline aspect is something I'm more curious about, because I think that is to the point that you were making.

That probably adds up to, hey, did I show up to training completely fit, completely rested?

You know, all of that, or even to a game, if it's, you know, in the case of Harry Brook, I think it was a day before, a one day.

So those are the things that probably are worth a look at.

I. I don't really know how you solve that, but.

But, yeah, it's.

It is weird because I have not heard as much about drinking off the field as for any other team or all the other teams combined as we have from England in the last couple of years.

Well, how much of it do you think is the media narrative?

Because one thing that I've noticed, compared to other countries, including India, no media is as harsh to their own team as the English.

And of course, in this situation, in this kind of a scenario where, you know, where English cricket is supposedly in crisis, the media just seems to pile on.

But how much of it is, do you think, just genuine discourse versus played up for the clicks or for the reads?

I think a lot of it's to do with the media.

They love to.

They love to build people up to then knock them down.

But I think that's also kind of part of our national psyche.

You know, we're more comfortable being the plucky underdog than actually being good.

So we desperately want people to be good.

But then when they start being good, then everyone's like, oh, he's getting a bit too big for his boots.

You know, he needs taking down a peg or two.

And then, you know, they're looking for something to, to, to attack them with and then, you know, it's the same with.

I don't know if you follow darts, but Luke Littler, he was wonderful.

Everybody loved him.

Came onto the scene 16, 17, won the world Championship.

Now this year he's getting booed left, right and center because everyone now thinks he's cocky, which he is because he's winning everything and he's by far the best darts player in the world.

But now everybody is kind of, oh well, he's too big for his boots.

It needs knocking down a peggle to it.

It's just the, it's part of our national psyche and I think the media, the media reflects that and kind of feeds into that.

Well, speaking of which, Harry Brooke next up for captaincy.

Agree?

I hope not.

And, and that's nothing to do with the nightclub incident.

I just think he needs to show that he can take test cricket seriously before he is captain.

I think, I think Michael Vaughan said the other day that he, he could just about see Brooke being captain, but not under, not with McCollum because I think that would be like kind of, you know, two unserious guys at the same time.

Harry Brooke under the guidance of someone like Andy Flowers to keep him in line.

I think he'd probably be fine.

But Brook and McCollum would be a.

Would be a hard no for me as well.

I also think having the captain to cross all three formats as a relatively young player, I think you've got the potential to destroy him with responsibility when he should just be concentrating on making runs.

But then beyond.

Do you have any viable candidates though?

The cupboard's really bare, isn't it?

That's the.

I was wondering whether they.

Because you, you.

They've.

They've let Bethel captain in a one day series against Ireland, but you can't give it to Bethel.

They've got rid of two long standing players in Pope and Crawley.

You can't really give it to Duckett.

I don't think he's got no captaincy experience.

Think he might have captain Welsh fire for one season or something.

Don't really want to give it to a bowler.

Jamie Smith is a no.

So yeah, they might have to bring in.

Instead of wondering whether they could bring in somebody who's captaining well for their county like Haseeb Hamid was in the running to replace Crawley.

He captained Nottinghamshire to the title last year.

Dare I say it, Johnny Bear stays captain in Yorkshire.

Love to, love to see Bear stay back in the side.

I don't think it will happen.

But, but yeah, I don't.

I wonder whether, you know, someone like Lewis Gregory's captaining of Somerset and bats and bowls has, has played, I think white ball cricket for once.

Once 50 over cricket for England.

Maybe the old T20.

I don't know.

There's not a huge wealth of candidates.

Have you got any ideas?

I was going to go back to Joe Root.

Oh, no, leave, leave Rude alone.

The poor can't make Joe Root.

I don't think he'd, I think he'd turn it down.

Yeah, I think it just takes two.

I mean like, you think it took a toll on Stokes?

Like Rude just looks like he's got the whole, the burden of the whole world on him when he's captain.

I mean it doesn't seem to affect his performance.

But no, I think he's, he, he's paid his dues.

I think right now, honestly, I'm fine with Harry Brooke being captain.

Sure, he's got a lot of detractors with regards to his captaincy and with regards to his judgment on the field.

Well, I guess I'm not making a good case for him as captain, but I think he could grow, he could grow in the job.

I mean, I think of someone like Graham smith, he was 22 years old, very, very new to international cricket and in time he came to be one of the most respected legends for South Africa.

And I think that might be a tolerative for Harry Brooke, but I think it's worth giving him a shot.

You know, he's interested.

Stokes has given him his seal of approval.

I, I think it's fair for someone who's been vice captain for a long, A few indiscretions shouldn't really rule him out.

I mean, if you have trusted him with the vice captaincy, go ahead and give him a fair chance to show that he is maturing, that he's learning from all of this.

And I think it's more important to find the right coach.

Like you said, probably McCollum might not be a good fit for him, but bring someone like an Andy Flower or maybe bring Ravi Shastri, who knows, maybe that could, or Raul Dravid.

I, I would think he's more important in the long format, so I could see it more reasonable that the captaincy in the limited orders format could go to someone else, maybe Jacob Bethel.

You know, he could kind of grow into that job in the limited overs formats.

But I think it, it's only fair that Harry Brooke has given a chance in Test cricket.

I'm Almost certain that's what will happen.

Yeah, and I think that's a pretty fair point.

As, as you were saying that I was thinking he's definitely one of the most exciting batting talents in the world.

And as I was saying that I was thinking, well the other guy that used to really excite me five years ago was.

And he's test captain now, he's ODI captain as well.

Yeah, so, so yeah, it's, I think it's about time that they get.

Well, he came close to being an all form captain.

Yeah, they tried in the D20s and just didn't work.

Yeah, camera close.

Maybe being captain will actually kind of force Brooke to be more responsible and, and you know, care more.

That's, that's my hope.

Yeah, yeah, it works differently for everybody.

So.

Well, we'll start to wrap up here but any last thoughts on Stokes the cricketer, Stokes the captain, what his retirement means for you either personally or just the future of the game in England?

I'm just grateful for the, the moments that he's, he's given us as you know, England fans.

I think he's been an incredible player.

He's been a, a very good, interesting captain and yeah, I was genuinely sad when he announced his retirement and yeah, do hope he comes back and wins in Ashes for us next year but in the absence of that, yeah, I'm just, I'm quite sad.

I don't know what happens next and yeah, thanks for the memories.

I think one piece we didn't touch as much as you were asking about Gunstones.

The captain was just on field tactics.

I think we've touched a little bit about the funky fields and, and things like that and, and just how he backed players and, and that's where I felt he was so unconventional because it again reminded me of Amazoni where he would Amazon.

He had one to point for.

I think it was Matthew Hayden who was playing the ball quite straight.

He put mid off and a long off just because it was a T20 game.

They were trying to save runs and he was like yeah, this looks silly but it doesn't matter, it's going to be effective.

So he was, you know, one of those people and that's what Stokes reminded me sometimes.

I don't think he was astute a captain as Ms. Dhoni but nonetheless very unconventional from that standpoint.

And the other piece that I will always take away is he just seemed to have sort of a. I don't know if it's a wide thing but like Shoai Bashir is a prime Example of picking somebody on, you know, just seeing something in the.

In them and then preparing them for a particular series, which was the Ashes down under, and then never playing him there.

So.

So I think that's where it was just very unconventional.

I never.

Oh, I didn't always agree with him, but it definitely made things very interesting.

Yeah, I will just say he is.

He has been an interesting cricketer, interesting person.

You know, for all his cricketing talents and influences, I think Stokes, the person himself is a very flawed person, imperfect, but at the end of the days, who seems to be, you know, trying his best or according to his conviction.

So all I want for him is to be happy and what he chooses to do next and just seeing someone like, you know, just what's next for him.

I hope he goes kind of like the path of someone like Freddie Flintov, who, you know, post his playing days was gone into like, different things, but especially now he's kind of seems like he settled into coaching rather than become someone like a Kevin Peterson.

Just like sounding off on social media every now and then.

Very opinionated, but not a lot of meaningful contributions.

So I just hope you can channel all of that into something meaningful.

So, yeah, I will echo Ben and say I really appreciate all the memories that Stokes created.

It's not very often you get players like that these days.

Sure, they can all hit the big sixes and take the wickets, but, yeah, he was always just so entertaining to watch when in full flow.

So that part of Ben Stokes will definitely miss.

But, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time.

Really appreciate it, as always.

Ben, thank you so much for joining us and talking to us about Stokes today.

Pleasure, thanks for having me.