Sally shares her journey of recovering from her time in Providence, a high-control cult that exploited her search for belonging. From her childhood as a Vietnamese immigrant to the manipulative dynamics that drew her into the group, Sally reflects on how cults prey on vulnerability and maintain control through fear and psychological tactics. Her story sheds light on both the personal cost of spiritual abuse and the broader patterns of coercion within such movements. Through honesty and courage, Sally also speaks to the process of healing, finding community, rebuilding identity, and reclaiming hope after trauma.

Who Is Sally?

Sally is a Vietnamese-Chinese-Australian counsellor with lived experience of cult trauma, supporting ex-Providence and Shincheonji members for over five years. She offers trauma-informed counselling and exit support to help people rebuild safety, reconnect with themselves, and rediscover their own values.

Connect With Us

• You can connect with Sally via her website - https://www.ahavacounselling.com.au/

• You can find out more about Sam on her website – www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram – @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
• Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities and are deconstructing their faith.

Foreign I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface. Just a quick content note around the.

53Rd to 58 minute mark, Sally talks about an experience of sexual abuse and it is quite descriptive in parts. If that feels too raw right now, you might want to skip that section.

As always, please take care while listening.

Welcome Sally, thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me here.

I'm excited about this episode because you are the first of this group on my podcast, so I'm pretty keen and it. There's a lot of conversation around this group at the moment because of a certain book that's been released.

But I won't do spoilers just yet, but I'm pretty keen for this episode. It'll. I think it'll be a really great conversation as well. I like to give people a bit of context. Where in the world are you at the moment?

I'm in Perth originally from Sydney but moved here about 10 years ago and been here ever since.

Amazing. Perth's beautiful.

We lived in WA for a couple.

Of years as well.

It was.

It's a nice part of the world.

So yeah, it's a bit isolating, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we, we were in Kalgoorlie for two years so it's like about six hours inland of Perth, so it's WA feels very far away from the rest of the country, so huge as well.

It's just like Massive state. But, yeah, I think it's catching up.

Yeah.

Modernizing itself.

Beautiful.

Well, I like to start these episodes with a very broad, vague question, which is, where does your story start?

And it starts with. Well, it can either start with my childhood or it can start with how I ended up being in a cult.

Okay.

Where.

Where feels good for you to start. Where it feels important for you to start.

Okay. Yeah.

I'll just give a background of, like, growing up and all that. And I think that sets the context of how I got myself into it or roped into it through manipulated, manipulative tactics.

Yeah, yeah.

My dad's family as well. My mum's family sailed to Malaysia.

My dad's went to Thailand, and they were in refugee camps there for, like three years or something before coming to Australia, meeting in Sydney and then starting family. And yeah, it was pretty tragic for them. And I can see that intergenerational trauma seep through into my family.

And not only did they have to deal with, like, facing death and what's happened to that country, they had to, like, survive to get to this country.

Right.

It's not a normal immigration type situation. It's survival.

Right.

And I can give you a bit of a story about my mum's situation back in Vietnam. So she was saying that when they were escaping after the fall, fall of Saigon, right, all these boats left that country.

And so she was young at that time, I mean, in her teens. And her and her family set off in this boat.

And the capacity of that boat was meant to be 200 people, but they loaded it up with 400 people, 500 people, whatever. So three boats left that day.

Right.

And, you know, they sailed off to Malaysia in hopes of a better future or just to escape that country. They see from afar a whole boat of people sinking. It just sank in. All these people dying, right? And then there's another boat that left with them.

They got intercepted by pirates, right. And people were killed and raped and whatever. And they were the only boats from that.

Yeah.

That sailed off, that made it to Malaysia. And my cousin record smelling rice. You know, just. They were so hungry that they could smell rice when they arrived in Malaysia.

So that was their situation. I'm glad I wasn't part of that. I was lucky to have been born in Sydney, in Australia.

Australia accepted them, but also because they were the first wave of Asian Immigrants kind of thing. There was racism. So not only do you have to deal with readjusting to society, people hated you for no reason.

Right.

So there's another trauma. And us growing up and then them being displaced and, like, just not knowing the system was very hard and very tough.

And growing up through high school without having support, like, for myself and my siblings, it felt like we had to fight it out in the school system, like.

Yeah.

So growing up felt very lonely and. Yeah, just not able to express my feelings.

Because if your parents are stressed, why would you want to stress them out even more with your own issues? So you just keep it in and you deal with it and. Yeah, so it was hard because of the neglect and they had to work and.

Yeah, just provide for the family. Starting all over again, you know? And. Yeah, so I guess that's when I met my cult. So after my teens, it was like about 19, 20.

Yeah, that's when hell started for me. I mean, it was already hell, but it was just like another layer, different kind.

Yeah.

Did you grow up with religion in your home or was that really a.

Part of the family?

They consider themselves Buddhist, so they temple. It wasn't like strict or anything, but I do remember being taken to the temple in home bush or something like that. And.

Yeah, don't know what I did there. But you eat vegetarian food and watch the monks pray. I have no idea what I was doing, but whatever.

Yeah.

And then there was Christianity in high school. I mean, primary school. They did scripture classes. Didn't think anything of it. Wasn't interested in.

Went to my friend's youth group at church in high school a couple times. Wasn't that interested as well. And then went into new age for like three years on my own. That didn't work. So I was looking for something.

Yeah.

I was searching for meaning in life. And then you ask people questions about the spirit world and what the meaning of life is. Right. At the age. Like, is that all it is?

Like, you just work until you die and then what?

Yeah, yeah.

I'm sure that a lot of people have those questions, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think they're very normal, natural questions to be asking as well. But sadly, they're questions that place us in very vulnerable positions as well, with.

The wrong people as well.

So.

Okay.

You.

Okay, well, I'm just gonna, like. We're talking about Providence, right? Okay. I'm just gonna, like. Because I don't want to, like, beat around the bush.

Yeah, yeah.

And the book that I referred to is obviously Liz Cameron's Cult Brides, which is very popular at the moment. And so that's probably why people might recognize the name Providence. And obviously there's a Netflix doco, but I wanted to.

To rip that off so I could just go like, okay, how old were you and what was your first interactions with this group?

Yeah, so because I was questioning life and the purpose and the meaning, I would interact with different people. And there was this friend of mine at work, we worked together and he was very spiritual and stuff.

So I asked him, oh, what, what do you think the meaning of life is and how God connects the spiritual world? And he said, well, I can introduce you to someone that knows. Oh, okay. Because, you know, we're friends for a year. Yeah, this person was.

And so he said, he gave me the email address and everything. And then this person, she messaged me and said, oh, do you want to meet in New Town in the park and we can chat and whatever.

And I didn't know anything about this person, but I trusted my friend and I'm like, okay, well she knows my friend and that's fine.

And so he said, my friend said to me, this person can teach you about what you asked about and it's Bible based and like, oh, I don't know about Christianity and all this, but I'll give it a go and if it doesn't work, I'll just go on to something else.

Yeah.

Anyway, so I met her, I think in that Newtown park or somewhere.

Yeah.

And we just. Yeah. So chatting. And I found her a bit awkward, all that, but I just started to.

Yeah.

Talk about the spirit, spiritual stuff. She didn't introduce the Bible study right away. It was like more building rapport.

Right.

And getting to know me better. But I think she was just trying to download information about me as much as she can.

Yeah.

And yeah, slowly we were like, I was introduced to the Bible studies and so we did it in the park and like, you know, once in a pub and she was. We were so awkward because she was praying in the pub and like, I just didn't. Didn't feel comfortable with that.

Yeah.

And then she's trying to invite me to church and I'm like, oh, I don't really want to go to church because she said the church was in Newtown. And I just thought a church is, you know, cold building with like pews and like.

Yeah.

It just didn't sit well with me. Like this eerie feeling about church. Right.

Yeah.

But eventually I got, I think I just got sick of like meeting here and There around Sydney. And I said, okay, well I can come to the church. Because she explained, well, it's not that type of church.

It's a, it's a house church, which is an apartment. They're. They consider a house church an apartment, whatever. Because God's everywhere and interesting concept. Okay.

I feel more comfortable with that because. Yeah, I don't want to be in cold, dark building. An apartment sounds okay.

So I did Bible studies in the building and I thought there was only me, her and another person there doing B. We did Bible study together, but there were actually people in the room somewhere. Like they were just there and they were quiet.

I didn't know they were there. But anyway, it just seemed everything was quite secretive or just there was an air of a secret secretiveness.

Yeah.

But anyway, every time I did Bible study, I was like wowed by the Bible study. Yeah.

What were you learning?

There's like the fundamental things of the Bible. That's what they taught. So it's called the 30 principles. So after the like 30 lessons, you actually realize who the Lord is.

Right.

Like at that time you don't know what was going on, but you're drip fed information of the Bible study.

Yeah.

And it is amazing. It's pretty cool. I think you'd like it as well. Yeah.

So you, you learn about the Holy Trinity, you learn about the, your spirit and doing things for your spirit to gain a higher level or something in the spiritual world, which you cannot measure anyway. You learn about the spiritual world, you learn about God, you learn about Satan, the Rapture and all this. And it makes sense.

Like the things that they taught, like, for example, Noah's Ark.

Right.

That particular Bible study is called Judgment of Flood.

And so they question you, well, how can it be a worldwide flood when, you know, no one had airplanes or means to travel outside of that region, like the Middle east, where like, you know, that religion came from. So they make you question and then they give you the answer. Or Noah didn't sail to Australia to collect kangaroos and koalas.

And the weather systems around the world were different at that time. How can it be a worldwide flood?

But it makes more sense if it was a regional flood, because the perspective of the world back then, it was like that was that region.

Right.

That was a world to them. Yeah.

And I think this is an important point because, like, I think a lot of the people that I have on this podcast come from groups or spaces or cults or communities or churches where they take the Bible literally, like word for word. Literally like seven day creation, that sort of thing. But it's my understanding that Providence taught the Bible metaphorically.

Is that correct Scientifically? Actually a lot of science behind it.

Yeah.

And they would actually pull any evidence that they can to support their message. Like they will do whatever they can. They'll add psychology into it if they need to. Yeah.

They'll do whatever it takes for you to realize and to be committed to the cause and the agenda. And you don't know what you're in.

You just think, oh yeah, a little Bible study here and there and you know, just feeding my spirit or this good stuff and.

Yeah.

And I, I did feel really enlightened by it.

Yeah, yeah.

At what, like, at what point in these principles? Because usually like we know that they don't feed the stuff that's concerning straight away like that.

Like you said, it's drip fed throughout and that's very strategic typically for high control groups. At what point in these principles or like were you taught that this is the one truth that the rest of the world are enemies?

Like that sort of like us versus their mentality.

It's, it's not taught right away. You just kind of pick later on when you're fully committed in it.

In it.

But there's a beginning level, there's intermediate level and then there's the, the what is it? The last part of the Bible study which reveal. And that last lesson reveals who he is.

Right.

The beginning is like, it's not that crazy like the Bible, like the concepts and stuff. It's very acceptable. Many Christians get themselves in that. Yeah, right. And then the intermediate. Oh, it's fascinating.

And then they position you to accept one thing after another. And this, these Bible studies act as a chain that lock you in. It's the indoctrination, it's the ideology.

And they paint this ideal picture of the world with words.

Right.

They create narratives and stories and you're taking on this journey of understanding your past and then your present and also your future as well. Your future is with, on this path. Right. It says though they explain everything about life and as they give you the answers.

Right.

And yes. So there was not really a point where you're like, it's us versus them within the Bible study.

It's oh my gosh, I realize this is the truth, this is the absolute truth. And slowly that starts to separate you from the world because once you adopt the ideology, no one else has this secret word or lessons.

So yeah, naturally you are separated. You separate yourself.

What do you think it was about the beginning, like the nice part at the beginning that most Christians adopt and things like that. This wasn't the first time it sounds like you had explored Christianity, though. So what was it about this time that was different?

Yeah, I think Stephen Hassan, the cult expert who was part of the Unification Church, which my also cult leader, came out of, who he was actually involved in that and he plaging the lessons anyway. So. Yeah, it's not original at all.

Um, most on.

I don't think he created the BITE model. And the BITE stands for Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional Control.

Right.

That's utilized in evangelizing or recruiting you. And that involves a lot of manipulation. Love bombing.

Right.

Love bombing to soften you up, open your heart, gain trust, and then they can indoctrinate you into it. So it was the love that I needed that I didn't have.

Right.

You are finding things that are missing in your life that they want to fulfill. And I wanted really good, close friends. I've always wanted these types of friends. Right. And they will always be there for you.

You know, they were like. They're one phone call away if you need like support or encouragement. I needed a lot of encouragement because my family didn't provide that.

They weren't good with words or emoji, like emotions. They just shot off.

Right.

They did a lot of that and they had art classes, they had soccer games. It was fun. It was really fun. In a very stressful Sydney at that time, you know.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think there. I love dispelling the myth with people that people don't like. People don't join cults. They.

They join groups that are usually places of belonging and meet a need that is. Is lacking.

And like you were describing about your family, you know, described it as like, lonely, like, of course, like a place that thrives or like feeds you. Belonging on a platter is going to look really, really appealing.

Yeah.

And that also the appealing part was the vision that they had for life.

Yeah.

This. There was one lesson called the purpose of Creation. It gives you the answer as to why you're alive on this earth. Who didn't want to know that?

I wanted to know that. And so they have like every lesson that will suit your need and they will fire that when they know.

When they know your need, they will give you that lesson and it just fills you up, you know? Okay, I know. That's. They frame your mind. These Bible studies are there to reframe everything and how you see things.

Yeah, yeah.

How long is it taking from like the first principle to the 30th principle. Like what is that window of time frame or what was it for you anyway?

It depends. They're very good at adjusting to people.

Yeah.

So an advanced person, like you're ready and you're thirsty for the word and you're waiting for the Messiah. I know a guy that took about five days to do the core Bible studies and realize. So once you realize who the Lord is, jms, that means you passed.

So you can take your time doing Bible study, but sometimes you're taken from beginning to end. 30 lessons. And then you realize. Some people take five years to do the Bible studies. It's not, not over until you realize.

Yeah.

You know, you realize who the Lord is. So I took about a year and a half.

Okay.

But I didn't funny that I say realize. I didn't think he was the Messiah. I thought he was someone really spiritual.

Okay.

But it was weird that everyone around, around me admired him, like he was the Messiah. And I wanted to know how they, like, how do you come to that realization?

So when I quit my job in Sydney, a year and a half of doing Bible study, I quit my in Sydney. Then I moved to Melbourne and then I helped pioneer the small church there. There's about a group of 10.

Yeah.

In an apartment building, like doing service and everything like that.

Yeah.

So I was helping them and then one time there was this 16 year old girl that was there like living together in the church and she goes, oh, and sunsetim. Sunset means teacher because we call him Sunset. Oh, he's the Messiah.

And I'm like, I was shocked when she said that because no one ever actually directly says it to you. They say you have to realize who he is.

Right.

It's never not fake at all.

Yeah.

Wink, wink. You know who he is. Like, you know, you gotta pray.

Yeah.

Like he cannot be named.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Yeah.

And then when you confess that he is every. Oh, the Holy Spirit inspired you.

Yeah.

Anyway, I remember that very clearly and I was shocked. And why am I in a cult? But that it didn't appear to be because everyone was so nice and everyone was striving to be better people.

Yeah.

I mean, and also, even if you had language of what a cult was, would you have felt like you could have realized it at that point?

No, because I wasn't being harmed at that point.

Yeah.

I didn't suffer any mental health conditions at that point. Maybe I had, you know, some past traumas. But from these group of people, like the group of people didn't do that until later on.

But like, the, like, you get into it, like the worse your mental health gets, but who realizes that, you know, like, you just don't know what you're in until you actually suffer.

Yeah.

The effects of it. But yeah, it was fun for the first three years. Like, we just did this together.

Yeah.

But you're. There were expectations. So when I was living with the Melbourne group in church, I was expected to wake up at 4am in the morning to pray.

And if I didn't, the pastor would just be really angry and voice her concerns that I wasn't waking up and praying to God. And so.

Okay, well, if I want to get close to God, I must do it because I pray like diligently every morning at 4am it's exhausting, which is the point, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you don't know, but it's reframed for you to see that it's working for your spirit.

Yeah.

And then we'd have sermons in the morning after that. And you're always reading the Bible and you're always learning the Bible studies so that you can indoctrinate other people or teach other people.

That's. Yeah. Reframing of the words. But yeah, so my mental health became really bad later on in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I thought, hey, this guy's quite arrogant. He would always talk about himself being the best and like, you know, great preacher, best singer and all this. It's just like, oh, who is this guy?

Like.

Yeah, but everyone always admired him.

Yeah.

And yeah, that time I was still a newcomer. I didn't know what was happening, but I just listened to the people around me who told me that he was innocent. Like Jesus.

Jesus was also imprisoned and Joseph and whoever.

Yeah, okay.

So that's how it was being reframed, essentially, that he was being compared to other people that you would have seen in the Bible that were falsely accused, like innocent and like persecution type of conversation.

Yep.

Persecuted. And they even have a lesson called concept of cults.

Oh, interesting.

Which teaches you what a cult is. So not from a psychological point of view. Yeah, their point of view. So when you.

You indoctrinate yourself with that, it eliminates everything outside that will tell you that this is a cult. Like, you don't listen to the outside noise. You only listen to this doctrine. So you're like, oh, well, I'm not in a cult.

Because in this doctrine or in this lesson, it teaches us that, you know, the culture. These antichrists out there.

Right.

Massive reframing there.

I was like, I mean, to be fair, that's pretty forward thinking, but not ideal, obviously.

And you'd be surprised how many very intelligent people. My pastor back in the day, she was. She used to work for the Blue House, which is the White House equivalent in South Korea.

She worked five years as a top administrator. Administrator, yeah. So you got really smart people in it. Like they're in government, they're in high positions. They try to.

They actually try to target them. They try to target the actors, the sports stars. They were trying to evangelize. Olympic skier in Japan one time. Yeah. So they'll go for it.

Yeah, yeah.

And okay, so at that point, like, you are in the group, you are like, you've done all 30 principles. At the end of that point, are you like making a vow? Are you making a dedication, a promise? Like, what does that typically look like?

Or are you just like skating through the door and you're in.

Yep.

So when you pass the Bible study, you have a bless. What is it?

The.

No, what's that ceremony? I can't remember. It was like. No, a passing ceremony. It's called a passing ceremony is. It's like your. Your birthday.

Right.

Your spiritual birthday. So I passed with three people on, I think, 26th of October or something like that, or.

Yeah.

And it means you're in the group without really realizing the significance of it. So there's always like a significant event or something to. To lock you in. Into it.

Yeah.

Because it means something. And once you're in the group, whatever they find valuable is what you eventually find value valuable.

Right.

It's not your hobbies, not what you like. It's not your desires, it's their desires. It's what something likes and you have to become like him.

Right?

Yeah.

And so are you still in, like, are you still in contact with your family and friends at this point or has that been slowly eroded?

Because my friends and family were all in Sydney, so I moved to Melbourne.

Right.

Just to.

Yeah.

Pursue God in the. The group.

And. Yeah.

I made significant changes, like to what I wore, how I spoke, how I presented myself. And my mind was always on evangelism. So they program your mind to actually want to do what they want to do. And you're willing.

You're a willing participant in this.

Yeah.

So again, lots of manipulation, coercion, also gaslighting. Because every time you do things wrong, it's your fault.

Right.

You can't sit there looking around when the sermon's on. You have to pay full attention. They want to grab your attention.

Right.

Yeah.

You have to wake up in the morning to pray.

Yeah.

You can't say this things this way because you will affect the newcomer. They critique everything about you so that you can. You change everything about your personality and your identity. Authentic identity is left behind.

So with cult abuse, you actually form a pseudo cult identity. You don't. You're not yourself anymore. You're operating out of that belief system.

Personality they want you to have.

Right, exactly. And you live up to it.

Yeah, yeah.

And so, like, what did that. I'm assuming because, like, you know, it's usually the way it goes. I'm assuming you then go into recruitment.

Mode at some point.

Yeah.

I was in Melbourne.

Right.

And we went to the unis.

That's what they do, Uni recruitment is the thing.

Right.

Like that's.

Yeah. Because you want the smart ones.

Yes.

What? The smart ones?

Yeah. I think that's actually a really big myth that people just are not aware of.

I think people think that really naive, gullible, like, stupid people join like groups that are cults, but actually really intelligent, smart humans join groups that are cults.

Yeah.

Well, if you're like, in intellectually. Well, you're intelligent.

Right.

In one way, academically. But are you emotionally. Yeah, yeah. Can you spot these signs of coercive behaviors?

Yeah.

Are you too trusting and empathetic? Because they prey on that too. They want the empathetic people. They want the obedient people. We were told don't go for the dark ones. As in the.

What, the emo types. The one with lots of tattoos and piercings and whatever. Because they've got issues. Right. Like you get like the outside appearance.

Outside appearance is everything to them. And it's the image.

Yeah.

So they want to target the tall, pretty smart ones or whatever. Like, you know, whatever they can get. I heard like years ago they were able to recruit a doctor in Melbourne. Wow.

He recruited his whole family or something. Or that's allegedly, anyway.

Yeah.

And because you're in this full of smart People, you're like, no, I'm not in cold because they're smart. They wouldn't get themselves in it. So I'm in the right place.

It like is like reinforcing. It's like there's a word for that. And it's like Friday night and I.

Can'T think of it, but it's a false security.

Yeah.

Because they're all like, okay, he's got a good job. He's an engineer. Like, he's like, you know, great with. He's a film producer.

Yeah.

And they, they got a great system going because they all teach each other.

Yeah.

Right.

Or if you want to learn film, go to this guy, get some tips.

Right.

And you just call this person and they help you. And for me, like, I've never had that. So that was appealing.

Right.

You can just have support and learn different things in the group because it's very appealing to the intellect when you're rubbing shoulders with the big guns.

Right.

Yeah.

Did the group feel like family for you?

Oh, yeah.

It felt like more than family. It actually. Because when you're indoctrinated in the same way, you have the same mindset. You're almost like one because you're believing.

Yeah, yeah.

You're striving towards the same thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it felt like more than family because families have somewhat similar values.

Right.

In the cult you have almost exactly the same values.

Yeah.

Right.

Who cares about your own? Like, we're just going to adopt this now.

Yeah.

And so in that space where you were in recruitment mode, did that feel natural for you while you were in it?

No, I hated it.

I was like, you don't strike me as the natural evangelist, Sally.

I absolutely hated it.

Yeah.

Other people were good, but they were striving for the attention of the cult leader even though he was in prison and everything. And this is the thing he wrote, wrote sermons to people like as he was in prison, like just to manage the organization.

And he also had his, you know, two IC running the whole show while he was in prison for 10 years. And yeah, we are encouraged to do it to recruit more people.

Yeah.

Different unis. Like all the unis in Victoria, like. Yeah, frequently. And they are non stop with it. Every day they're thinking about it.

Every day they're looking for people. And you know, these guys are good at studying your behavior. Yeah, very good at like studying people.

Right.

And what they liked and what made them tick. And then you just feed them a bit of information about your Bible study and you Test the waters. Very sensitive to like.

Yeah.

Their reactions and stuff. But then you are coordinating with others to get this person in.

So you're always talking about them, you're always praying about them and you're always almost scheming.

Yeah.

Get these people in it. So, you know, I don't know. Liz explained about the modeling stuff.

I actually help organize the first modeling event in Melbourne that she was a part of.

Wow.

So, yeah, she got involved there. She's from the Canberra church. I'm from the, you know, Melbourne.

And we organized this event and it was significant for us, you know, to, you know, organize so that we can recruit these models. And we were able to successfully recruit. I think, one. She's still in it, unfortunately.

Yeah.

But Liz went to that one. I still have lots of photos of her, like, on my camera somewhere. But yeah, yeah, yeah, we've interacted.

I stayed at their church in Canberra a few times and. Yeah, so we know each other.

Yeah.

So that was interesting. I didn't know about how severe. Well, I did see signs of how severe it was in the Canberra church because we heard things that.

Yeah.

How they were controlled and stuff. And I did visit one time and they just didn't look good. Like dissociated.

Right.

And yeah, some of them just didn't know how to talk. And then we find out later that Liz was in hospital.

Yeah.

And I think she was in Sydney or something.

And then my pastor at that time from Victoria, Melbourne, we actually, I dropped her off at the hospital for this pastor to go to that hospital and try to get her back in. And I didn't know I was doing that. I just thought because she only gave me information. I'm just going to talk to Liz. Can you drop me at the hospital?

I'm like, okay, yeah, sure.

Yeah.

So she was actually trying to convince her to come back or something. I don't know what went on. But not knowing. Liz was actually very sick at that time.

Yeah.

And then news came out that Liz was persecuting us. So the us versus them.

Right.

We're taught, oh, my gosh, she's being used by Satan. And, like, don't talk to her like she's been shot. She had a gunshot wound spiritually in the head. Like, you know, she's never come back.

So we just actually thought she was very evil. So that's how they framed it.

Like, don't even ever talk to her because she went out to the media because we were told, if you ever do that, that means Satan's using You and all this stuff. So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Glory frames.

Yeah.

And anyway, my mental health through that time in Victoria was really bad because of the leadership and how controlling they were. And. Yeah, I was dissociating. Like, it was really bad. Everything about our lives was controlled.

I remember when there was a newcomer that came into the church. My past so wanted me to move rooms so that she can take the room.

Right.

And I'm like, no, that's my room. Like, I don't want to move everything out. And then we were just arguing for hours and hours about this thing.

So, like, it felt like they've taken everything over everything in my life, and then the last thing that I have is my room. Right. And you're gonna take that away from me, too. So I'm fighting for my room.

But then she started to slowly move stuff out of my room to another room.

Yeah.

Just.

Yeah.

And I had to stay with someone else that I didn't really like.

Yeah.

So it was a big room. Two girls in each room. Eventually, we did move to a massive penthouse, like, in south bank and held church services there. And.

Yeah.

One time because, like, there's. There's a difference between the faith stars and the regular members.

The faith stars are, like, the ones who have dedicated their whole lives to the cause. And this was a faith star. So the idea of a faith star is you're married to the Lord, spiritually married.

Right.

You're married, and you're thinking about him all the time and all these. And praying and.

Yeah.

So their role as evergreens is to.

Yeah.

Just stay celibate and be clean and just evangelize and do the work of the Lord.

Yeah.

I was just a regular member, so I never got letters from him from prison. Because if you got a letter from him from prison.

Yeah. That was big, right?

Yeah, it was massive.

Yeah.

People would be jealous, so they would work harder.

Yeah.

Gain the attention of the cult leader because we thought he could read our spirit and, like, he knows our condition. So we're working super hard. I never really got one. And so I'm working super hard, burnt out, you know, studying on top of providence work.

Right.

And waking up in the morning and doing Bible study and doing re Education.

Yeah.

I remember one time when I was in my bed depressed.

Yeah.

That pastor came into my room and said, you need to do Bible study now. I'm like, I don't want to do Bible study.

And she basically said, if you don't do Bible study, then the others can complain and said, I don't want to do Bible study, so you have to. It was a 30 minute argument again, me and this person. Oh, my gosh. Like, it's crazy.

So eventually I said, fine, you want me to come out and do Bible study? Do you? And then so it was three, two other people, me and the pastor. And she's just trying to do the Bible study and asking questions.

And my one was one worded blunt answers, right?

Yep.

Nope. And then she saw my attitude and I was ruining the atmosphere and she didn't like it. So she's like, okay, let's not do Bible study now.

It was only 15 minutes into it and I just said, see, I told you I didn't want to do it. And like, yeah, I just screwed up for everyone.

Yeah.

Same pastor. I had a. I think a role in getting the girls closer to jms.

Yeah.

Because.

Yeah.

Anyway, one time I walked in on her, right? She had her laptop out and she had photos of JMS when he was in his.

When he's 35 or whatever, in his Budgie smugglers at the beach and like, you know, posing.

Yeah.

So she had that out. I walk into the room and she's like, oh, Ah. Like, looking at the photos, like having almost a porno moment, you know, like, yeah.

So I come in and I look at her. I'm like, all right, I'm just trying to get something from the room. And she's like, oh, what do you think?

Like, just, you know, alluding to isn't he hot kind of thing, like. And I just responded that in the most polite way that I could. Sorry, I'm not into old Korean men. Like, and then she got so offended.

I was like, I bet that did not go down well.

She was so whatever floats your boat kind of thing.

Like, if you.

If that's what you like. But it didn't really occur to me that's what she was doing. Like, she was fantasizing about him or like, just, okay, she admired him or.

Yeah.

It didn't click for me.

Was that part of you seen as, like, a rebellious streak with them?

I was quite rebellious in it. Like, they didn't me, like, because I was seen as unstable and like, depressed and well, it's normal to be depressed in that controlled environment.

Like, that's so controlling.

Yeah.

And because I was always living with. With Koreans, no offense to Koreans or anything.

It's just like I was, you know, my identity has already been, you know, affected by, you know, just being born in this country. Asian and Australian.

Right.

Australian culture behind me And I come into this Korean setting and I'm made to feel like I need to be like them. And I was not knowing who I was at by the end of it.

Yeah, the.

Just the customers, just the different way of doing things. Micromanaging, nitpicking, everything.

Yeah.

Misunderstandings. Like, you know, if someone calls you a country girl, you wouldn't be offended.

Right.

So I called my pastor. Oh, country girl. She was so offended because in Korean culture, being a country girl is a low class.

And then she was screaming at me and I'm like, well, I have to explain myself, like, through all this culture clash.

Yeah.

So that was.

Yeah. So do you think that.

I guess I'm sort of like, I'm wondering, like, was it your choice or was it their choice or whose choice is it that you were not one of the faith stars?

You can decide if you want to be. If you're convicted.

Right.

To be one or you can be influenced to be one. Right. And some people are like, they heavily suggest, oh, you should be faith star. And you know. Yeah, exactly.

We did inverted commas, influenced, manipulated into being a faith star to be direct.

Yeah.

So I didn't want to be one because I knew that somewhere in my mind I was like, if I ever became one, I'm never getting out of this thing.

Yeah. Wow.

Yeah.

I mean, that's a pretty big thought to be having. Like, to have even, like, not necessarily even consciously, but even subconsciously.

To have that sort of mindset or thought at any point whilst you are in the group is huge.

Your conscience speaks to you throughout. It actually does.

And you ignore it because you're like, well, it's just my physical thoughts, you know, it's not spiritual and it's probably from Satan.

Yeah.

But Anyway, I.

Even though I lived there for six years, every time my mind tried to go back there, it just went blank.

Yeah.

So dissociation.

Right.

Like dissociative amnesia or something like that. Because it got really dark.

Eventually I moved to Perth and I was trying to get away from them and they had a church here with like five people or something.

Yeah.

But that's not the most craziest part of my story. There's more.

I mean, I do Like, I. I do want to know, like, that move from Melbourne to Sydney, over to Perth, did you get backlash from that, like, or, like, were you actively being pulled back to Melbourne or were they okay to get rid of you over to. Over to Perth?

No.

Okay.

I decided I'll just move to Perth because I. I apply for jobs everywhere eventually. Yep, just got a job here and I just had to tell my family, hey, I have to go, I have to go leave here. And they're like, why?

And I just couldn't explain to them why I didn't know why.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

So you were still in contact with your family at this point still?

Yeah, I was living in Sydney with my family.

Right, okay.

Just healing and not knowing what happened to me in. In Melbourne. Eventually had a break in Perth, just like working and doing normal things and readjusting, but I was still in it.

I was out and just trying to sort my mind out. I'm like, why am I so effective? This was a truth. And God is in this history. We call it a history of God, then it should be all right.

So I was just trying to analyze everything and like, what boundaries were crossed and everything. And my time in Perth, it was just sorting out what was wrong with, you know, the cult and yeah. Did not know that it was called at the time.

I was working at a church organization. I won't say what it was, but I was trying to compare what a normal church situation was and what a cult was because I wasn't Christian before.

So I think the cult's normal.

Yeah.

And I thought, wow, there's boundaries here. They actually consult with each other before making decisions.

Yeah.

Oh, Now I discovered that in Providence, some of my friends, some faith stars, were sending bikini photos to JMS in prison, which I didn't know. I just found it on a anti JMS website that I read and I was so shocked, like, no, that can't be. No, we talk about cults. He doesn't do that.

He's innocent. But then I did find out from a couple people that they sent bikini photos to him at the suggestion of their part female pastors.

Right.

They said, yeah, he can read your spirit, he can pray for your photo, he can check your health, even like the condition body. Right.

Yeah.

Obviously you know what he was doing with those photos.

Yeah.

So that didn't click. I still was like, you know, on the fence about that. But then I thought, would a pastor at the church that I'm working at do that?

Yeah.

Would he ever ask for bikini photos? Obviously not like in your cult mind. You just. You don't know what's wrong or right anymore.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. So you alluded to something still coming. So I'm just gonna go.

Yeah.

Okay. Right. I also just want to actually interject here and just go for people who don't know. What was he actually in prison for?

He was convicted for rape.

Yeah.

And.

Yep.

Okay.

Just wanted to, like, clear that up for people who didn't know what he was actually imprisoned for.

All these media reports came out about his sexual, you know, issues, and he was escaping.

Right.

But it was fed to us a different story.

Yeah.

And apparently he was doing the same thing to the Europeans and to the Asian countries as well. Wherever he went, he would do what he usually does. Yeah.

Yeah.

And Interpol were after him, and that's how he got extradited back to South Korea and then tried and convicted, and that's the 10 year stint. But the cult was running fine without him. It was actually his 2 IC that was running the show, and she preached much better than him.

She ran the place better. I think everyone had a revived faith, and it was an. It was actually pretty awesome in that sense because we admired her.

Yeah.

And I've had prayer from her as well. Like, everyone loved this woman because she seemed like a strong, powerful figure.

Right.

So I met her on many occasions, and I think you will see her on the net. Net. Next episode of the Netflix. Right. And seeing my blood boil because I know what she. She's done. Oh, my goodness.

And he continued preaching and working on the holy land, praying for people and just having a good old time on, like, that compound.

Yeah.

So Womindong is considered the holy land of God. It's not Israel anymore. It's South Korea. Yeah. Because the Messiah came from the east, wink, wink.

Yeah.

So right at Mormon say, it's the U.S. so it's fine.

Every.

Everyone thinks it's somewhere.

Yeah.

No one thinks it's Australia, but.

Oh, I think there is one. Isn't there one? Oh, I don't know.

I mean, there probably is, but.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. They approved me to meet him, and I thought, okay, book my tickets. I'm about to fly out. A week away from flying out.

So I messaged my friend who was my house, one of my housemates in Melbourne when I was there, and I said, hey, look, I'm coming to South Korea. I'm gonna meet him. Do you want to meet up? Do you want to catch up? So I said, do you want to catch up? No reply.

And.

I was. I found that strange because I thought we were friends, you know? And three days after I messaged her again, I said, look, I'm gonna meet him.

I'm sorry, like, if I did anything. And she was drunk that night. And in Providence, you don't drink. It's prohibited to drink.

Yeah.

But because she was drunk that night, she messaged me, and then she said, sally, I don't want to meet any Providence members. And I said, why? What's wrong? And she goes, oh, if I told you, your head would be spinning. And I said, well, tell me.

At that point, I felt like I was 1% out of. I mean, always 1% in the group.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're on a knife's edge.

Yeah.

And I just wanted to meet him to prove that. That, you know, that time wasn't a waste, and I would be dedicated still if he proved himself.

Yeah.

And she goes, oh, Sunsenim said, I'm a slanderer. And I said, why? Oh, he slandered me on a pulpit. So when sermon. Like, when he delivers sermons, everyone around the world hears it at the same time.

Right time. So thousands and thousands of people are hearing that he's calling my friend a slanderer.

Yeah.

We're talking about, like, 30, 40,000 people knowing about it.

Yeah.

He's not afraid to call people out on the pulpit. No. You know.

Yeah.

So she said, he called me a slanderer and all this stuff. I'm like, why? What happened? And then so she called me, and so she was working at the Providence Hotel, which that's what she was saying.

And, like, yeah, Hard time working and following the Lord around Womdong. Like, she follow him around for a month, hoping she'd receive God's message for her because he. He's a direct contact to God. So nothing happened.

Obviously, she followed him for no reason. Like, there's thousands of people doing that. Anyway.

So, anyway, she was also given a task to work at the Providence Hotel in the mountainside as well. And her and her friend were working. And then one time her friend disappeared, and she was wondering why or what happened.

And so she called a friend and said, where are you? And she goes, oh, if I told you, like, you probably send you downhill. And so she said.

Her friend said sun singing came by the hotel, and when he came by, he touched my behind. And this is the first time hearing anything of that sort for me. Yeah, what. What is he talking about?

My head was actually spinning when she told me, like, what the heck is going on? And further, she told me another story.

Another Korean faith star told her that she was in the Womdong area and they're about to go into the cave, right? So there's hundreds of people around JMS all the time. He selected two girls. You and you come into the cave and let's play hide and seek, right?

And the girl's excited, yeah, I want to go play and hide and seek with the Messiah, you know, Jamis. And so he has bodyguards, so he's blocking people out of the cave. And he got.

Got the other girl to count down, and he said, oh, let's go run further into the cave. And they can hear the girl counting down as I get further in.

And allegedly, he pushed her against the wall and digitally raped her, put his hands in her pants and raped her. And for her, young girl, like, you know, was really shocked and said, why are you doing this? Like, what's going on?

And he said, I'm doing this because I love you. You're my bride, and I'm your bridegroom. And because she's a faith star, you're already primed to actually think that for five stars, you. It's.

They allude to the idea that you are the bride, so it's okay. So for in her mind, her framing is. It's fine. It's fine.

Like, yeah, yeah.

So for months and months and months, she's just like, no, is it wrong? Is it right? She's battling herself to understand if it's right or wrong because of the indoctrination and the reframing of your mind.

You just can't get out of that thought because you're taught it's. It's wrong to even think he's like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Eventually she left. I did meet up with that girl in South Korea to hear the same story from her. Her mouth. But when I heard that, I was like. My world came crashing down.

I won't believe what I was involved in. And I. And I still thought my friend was a liar when she told me, but I chose to believe her. But my cold mindset, don't believe her. She's a slanderer.

She's, like, used by the devil on the other side. No, but how can she be? She's my friend. I eventually went to south.

What, an internal war, though, for you?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I still decided to go to meet him because I want to face this perpetrator. Yeah. And see who he actually is. I went to South Korea, met up with my friend who told me, we get blind drunk at the clubs, we're not meant to drink.

And I.

And I thought, hey, if he's the messiah, then he would know I was drinking. Because he. For years and years, he told us, don't drink. It's like, you know, it's. If you drink, the devil's like, pouring poison in you.

And like, the drinks and all that. Like, there's images. So like, for a time, years and years, there were images, video. Video images of Satan pouring stuff down your throat.

And like, you know, this is in church. You know, fear mongering is used.

Yeah.

So all that came to mind. But then, like, yeah, he might be a perpetrator. So that friend showed me a video of the two ic. The assistant.

Right.

One night woman that you thought was incredible.

Yep.

And this was the most shocking thing because I saw it with my own eyes. And basically I've always seen her in, like, white suits, preaching, Powerful preacher with a microphone.

Yeah.

Always praying for people. Holy spirit. And that when she showed me the video, it was of the two I see dancing for the Messiah.

But not like a innocent dance, you know, it was like a stripper. It looked like a stripper in a very tight dress shaking her ass in front of the one we call the Messiah.

And I was so shocked seeing that it was two days away from meeting him. And I was just like, oh, my gosh. So do you want to know what happened?

Yes.

All right. Do you want to take a break or do you have any questions? No.

Well, I'm. Well, I did. I was thinking, like, I can't imagine the million questions and emotions that you are experiencing.

At this point, two days away from seeing the person who is supposed to be this, like, you know, enlightened spiritual leader with a direct line to God and this woman who you have essentially worshiped for like years and years. I can't imagine the absolute storm of emotions that would have just flooded your nervous system in that moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I could not think.

Yeah.

I was in a bubble in my mind.

Yeah.

Trying to process it because, like, it was cult identity, authentic identity confusion.

Yeah.

Sunday came.

Yeah.

We went to Seoul. Thousands of people in this service. Like I would estimate two to three thousand persons.

People.

You got the orchestra going. You got like people everywhere in this church building like, that they hired. And he comes out and he is preaching the word, right.

The two I see comes out, she's on the stage as well, but she's sitting down with her laptop out, typing away. Like his word was everything, Right. It was absolute truth. And that's part of the social conditioning.

When you see someone doing that, you're like, oh, I need to listen to the word too.

Yeah.

You pay attention.

Yeah.

It's learned behavior, right? And yeah, he preached for three hours. He loves the spotlight. He, you know, you hear stories about this person, right?

Like, he's always talking about himself being the best singer and then he would like hit a note and he's just all like the tone and everything is like a cat's like you're screaming.

I'm just thinking I can. I'm flat out watching a three hour movie without falling asleep, let alone a three hours sermon.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I was just.

Yeah.

Anyway, I had to go along with it because I find out like, about me knowing. Yeah, that finishes. And I thought, oh, I'm not going to meet him. It doesn't seem like I'm going to meet him. Yeah.

So my pastor SL translator says, oh, quick, after the service, we're going to meet him. It was like this secretive thing and whatever. I remember going up a lift with.

Her.

A few floors up, and then I exit that around that hallway and there were a lot of people there. There was like 20 people waiting to meet him. And these were probably approved and special people ready to meet him.

And I could see my pastor messaging the two I see and saying, oh, is Sally nearby? Like, you know, because I always approved all that, you know, as I was in this room of people, like, everyone's nervous and waiting for him.

And then like there's, you know, you don't know these people, but they're. You can tell they're. They've got some sort of status.

Right.

So my pastor goes, oh, look, that guy over there. He's a goalkeeper in the K league. So you know how we have a league here?

Yep.

Yeah, he's part of Haley goalkeeper.

All right. Whoa.

So JMS wants to meet these types of people. He wants to meet big business people, actors, whatever. So, you know.

Yeah, it gives more power.

So they. That's right.

Yeah. He.

So they can be recruited. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It gives him more attention. So, yeah. And they do feel special because everyone's like, wow, I wish I met him. My.

Yeah.

So they organized for me to go to the front so he. He won't miss me.

Right.

Okay.

And I'm like, wow. 10 years of being in this group and I get to meet him and this was it.

Right.

And this is make or break. Next thing I see, I'm at the front of the door where he's going to come out.

And you know, there's door handles when they, like, you know, you unlock it and then you move out.

Right.

You can see the handle go down. And he pushes the door out. And it was slow motion. Oh, my gosh. This is it. And he comes out. He's my height, right? He's my height. Not ugly. Sorry.

Yeah.

Skinny, ugly. Yuck.

Old.

But he was coming out. But he didn't come out for his face facing forward. He came out looking back at the 10 women in the room, excited to see him.

Like, they were so hyped seeing him. And he loved the attention. He absolutely lapped it up. And he comes out with the two. I see.

And she was holding like, what is it, a clipboard or something like that.

Right.

Looking professional and perfect.

Right.

And so they were standing in front of me, right. This is the moment I was like, oh, my gosh, everyone wants to meet them in this way. So it was translated to me, the conversation.

I have it on my phone somewhere.

But yeah, I recorded everything that he said to me and it was basically, he was saying the things that he thought I wanted to hear about me going through all the hardships with the leadership in the past. He thought that was what I was there for. I know what I was there for is to suss him out.

And he.

It was a seven minute conversation, translated between us and that. And every time he spoke, the two I see would make it sound better. Of course she would make.

Her job is to actually make him look good in front of everyone.

Yeah.

And to keep his image of being this perfect person.

Right.

Who could do no wrong. And so she was communicating with me. And then after that, it was a seven minute conversation. He walks away.

And in my heart, I thought that wasn't anything. It was very bland. Like he didn't seem like anything amazing at all.

But it felt like he read my mind in some way because he stopped in the middle of walking away, comes back and he knew. It's like he knew I wasn't satisfied, came back and shook my hand and like, his hands was really soft as well. It's like, interesting.

Like, you know, didn't feel like he worked a day in his life, but he does work.

Yeah. Yeah.

So he walked off and I'm like, well, that was it. There was another time. So after Sunday, I had to process that and all that. I was staying in Ramyendong somewhere.

There was a third Wednesday night service. So it's a Sunday service and Wednesday, it's always like that. He preached again. It was a long sermon.

And this place in Womyndong, this church is massive. I think it was called the Holy Sun Love House or whatever it was, right. This place looked like Aladdin's palace.

Like, you walk into the church and nothing matched. Like, the colors were, like, wild.

You're, like looking around and there's this big pillar and there's a purple and gold and then there's this weird type of chandelier. And it was nothing you've ever seen. And he designed it about this place. It was like, what the hell is this? Like, is this meant to be artistic? Like.

Yeah. So that was the church. It was very different from when I was there, like, years prior because it looked like a normal church now.

He came out and changed everything about Warmy Dong and to his own taste. And then people would say to me, oh, isn't the church, like, doesn't it look cool now? Like you.

Yeah.

He has a unique taste, doesn't he?

Yeah.

Anytime the word unique is used, we know it just means.

It'S. It's as though it's like you took a hallucinogenic drug or mushroom or something.

And you walk into this place and it's speaking to you, like, all these colors. All right, we'll sit here and listen to a sermon then, shall we? So for three hours it was that again.

And so we finish around 8 or 9 o' clock at night, right? And afterwards he wants to play tennis. This is. This is November at, like towards December, minus 10 degrees in the Korean mountainside.

And you have this makeshift tennis court, right? And it's like in. In a dirt. The dirt Ground that they made. And there's hundreds of people around this tennis court and I, you know, the.

The spotlight, you know, what are they called? The. Oh, like the floodlights. Yeah, the floodlights, yeah.

Yeah.

Like you would get in a sporting complex, right?

That.

That was on this. Yeah, it was wild. It's, like, right in front of his house, too. His kingdom, right?

Yeah.

He wants to play tennis. So he's there. He has the best tennis player on his side, who is actually 10s coach. He wants to win, right?

And he has three people on the other side and they're hitting the ball to each other.

Every time he hits the ball, everyone's like, clapping and yelling and cheering and he's loving the attention and he's just looking around and he's hitting the ball. And this goes on for two and a half, three hours, everyone cheering like, well in. Into, like, close to midnight, right?

Yeah.

And he gets tired and then he has another assistant, a younger assistant. Not the two I see, but the. Another one that he has around her. And she was not liking being, you know, around these people.

It looked like she wanted to go to bed, but it was hilarious because I was watching the whole thing and, like, this is ridiculous. And she didn't want to play tennis, but he said he's the tennis racket play tennis.

So she's there and the shittest tennis player I've ever seen, not even hitting the ball. And she was angry. Her face was pissed off that she had to play tennis.

Right?

And she can't say no. Yeah. Missing the ball and she's just, like, hitting the racket on the ground and, like, she doesn't know what she's doing.

She absolutely doesn't want to be there. And I'll. I cracked up just laughing at her.

But anyway, then, because I was bored, I was just saying to my pastor, yeah, can you ask him if I can play tennis? So he comes along and he goes. She goes, oh, she's from Australia. Can she play tennis? And he looked at me like, gosh, like he didn't want me to.

But he can't say no because he's in, like, a group of people, right? So he's like. Like, gives me a tennis racket. I go on the thing and I just hit the ball.

But he didn't want to play, so he was, like, handing out snacks to people and all this stuff.

Yeah.

And my pastor goes up to him and, and or the assistant and says, oh, can you just introduce Sally to him kind of thing. She needs prayer for her back cuz I had bad chronic back pain.

Then eventually he prays for my back and yeah, so he touched my back and it did get better. I think it's just a placebo effect or something. Yeah. I think it's all anyway because they told us the Wom Yun Dong spring water could heal cancer.

Yeah.

And people have testified about being healed. Healed just by drinking the water. Right. Who knows if that's a lie or not? But anyway, so that was my interaction with him.

And I come back and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to process this. And it was right before COVID hit, maybe like around that time.

Right?

Yeah.

So she's the other Australian girl.

Yep.

And I just lied to her. We just crossed paths, said hi and she looked very depressed, but I didn't think anything of it. Yeah, I just.

All the Australian members, because of what they did and all that, like just my interactions with them in the past.

Yeah.

But yeah, that's my story. And I came out of this thing eventually.

What is like, I talk about deconstructing with people all of the time, but what does deconstructing that actually look like for you and processing everything that happened and also just like probably I imagine starting to learn about other stuff that was happening as well. And like I imagine like that's like your world imploding and you're trying to process from the ground up.

Yep.

Like when people leave a cult, especially like, you know, these high control groups, my one was. Is quite devastating because it actually, the philosophy, the outlook, the perspective was all them. So your whole identity has been destroyed twice.

Right.

And it's like, how do I reframe everything now? And the grief that you feel when you come out of it, you don't just lose things a bit at a time, you lose it all at once. You lose.

You've lost your family. It dawns on. You lost your family connections and your friendships and you lost, you know, finances, time, your youth.

People wanted to get married and always have a family. But because the cult told them, I'll be A face star or they agreed to be a face star. They let go of that dream for God.

Right.

You're told going out with men and all that is like the fall of Adam and Eve or whatever. So you got to reframe everything. So you lose time, you lose youth, education, jobs, money. People have killed themselves after coming out of that.

Like, you know, they have jumped off buildings and stuff, like, because they gave everything to him. People give apartments to him. You know, whatever you can think of. He's got so much money, allegedly. And. Yeah.

So dealing with the grief and the waves of all the stages of grief.

Right.

That I had ptsd, social amnesia, anxiety.

Yeah.

A lot of things that I had to sort out and, you know, re evaluating my whole life and what I want to do. And I went to a psychologist.

Right.

And they just treated my cult experience like a normal church experience.

Yeah.

Which is not. Obviously.

It's.

Yeah, it's completely different.

Like, there might be similar, like, thematic things that come out, like, in terms of grief and loss and, you know, but it is not the same. They're not the same thing.

No.

And she also was quite intrigued about my story to the point where we went over 15 minutes over the session because she looked like she wanted to hear more because, like, on the edge of her seat. And it's very unethical. It's just unprofessional as well.

Yeah.

It's like she can just grab popcorn and, you know.

Yeah. Like you're a therapeutic Netflix documentary. Like, it's like. I mean, aside from the. Yeah.

The wild unethics that are happening, but it's also just, like, disrespectful as a human. Like, to. Like to use someone's pain as a sensationalist in what is supposed to be a really safe place for them to be vulnerable and. And open.

It's just so damaging to do that.

Yeah.

I had a couple sessions with her, and I just thought, nah. And then I had to get some anti. Just to switch off whatever was in my mind. Because you.

You're taught to think and think and think, and it just drives you up the wall.

Right.

And.

Yeah.

So healing and then grounding was me assessing my values again, because it's not their values. You. You have to separate your values from theirs now.

Yeah.

It's. You're enmeshed with them. You have to differentiate yourself from that group. What they like isn't what you like. And that's very hard to figure out.

Even now.

It's even hard to figure out how I Should be reacting to things when in the past I would react a certain way and, like, people would be sometimes more excited for me than I am for myself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For certain things.

But five years is not a huge amount of time to be essentially rebuilding your whole entire identity and worldview and life from the ground up. What has that rebuilt? I mean, firstly, like, because there's stages. Like, you don't go straight to rebuilding.

You survive for a bit and then you go to rebuilding. What has that been like for you to do that? Other than exhausting, I imagine exhausting.

There's suicidal ideation. There's regulated emotions and nervous system.

Yeah.

You've got to get your nervous system right.

Yeah.

Because even though you can think your way through things, you're feeling totally different. You're feeling miserable and hopeless.

Yeah.

So grounding yourself with connecting to your body again, because you're not connecting to anything because you've ignored signs of danger and threats throughout your time in it. So that for me, basics. You start with basics, feed yourself, go to the gym if you need rest, is a massive one.

It's a high control group and high demand as well.

Yeah.

So you need to normalize what a good rhythm is for your life. And I like to encourage my clients the same way.

Right.

Get the basics again. You're forgetting what the basics are.

Yeah. That.

So connecting to your body.

The friendship groups are extremely important to build trust again in the world because you're so vulnerable when you just thrust it out of this thing, you don't know where to start. So luckily I already had a group of friends before I came out and I found someone that I felt was trustworthy enough to share my story.

And of course, it's shocking.

Yeah.

And they've kind of helped me through that. And you've got to find a person who wants to listen and who can listen and who's safe.

Yeah.

You know, and you will be repeating the same thing over and over again.

Yeah.

You'll find yourself just saying the same thing in your story. And they probably had enough.

But, you know, you can't help but express what you've been through from different angles until you're actually able to process that and until you're not triggered by it anymore.

Yeah.

I think that's very important part of therapy.

Right.

And then reconnecting with ex members is also Very important because they're the only ones that understand you. And we just had a ex members retreat like two years ago, Liz and the others, and that was really great.

And.

Yeah, just a mutual, you know, experience. We don't have to explain to anyone. We just get it right.

You can talk about whatever you want without people, you know, raising their eyebrows, you know.

Yeah.

And it's really good and therapeutic. So those are. Were the things that helped me. And of course, also with the counseling course, it helped me identify. Okay.

That's crossing boundaries and, you know, that's mental health stuff and.

Yeah, yeah.

So it gave you language for what you were experiencing.

Sounds like. Yeah, yeah.

At what point did you start referring to it as a culture? Like, how long did that take?

Months.

Yeah.

Months after finding out we weren't allowed to say the C word. We just would not.

Yeah.

Because we're taught it's not one.

Yeah.

And it's when you can confess that it is one that you were in. That's when you can start to do the work.

Yeah, yeah.

Because then you.

The veil has lifted, so to speak.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Long journey.

Yeah, absolutely.

What is it like for you to work with survivors now?

I feel like they understand where I'm coming from. They know I give a bit of insight. It's not all about me, but I give them enough. I. I know what you're going through.

Right.

These are, you know, the steps and this is what to look out for. This is normal.

Yeah.

They feel like, what the hell is going on? Is this like, you know, how long is this going to last for this up and down emotional dysregulation?

It's normal that it's like this for a few years or like, you know, depending on your trauma as well, or past trauma. Mine was a lot.

Right.

Because of my intergenerational stuff. So there's layers and layers that you have to go through. And I find that people who have a really good support network, they can heal better.

Yeah, yeah.

So it depends on your complex situation too.

Yeah.

I love asking this question and I feel like it's actually been a while since I've asked someone, but for some reason I'm going, what. What is it that brings you joy now? Now that you are. You are out of that. That space of control and demand and fear?

What brings you joy?

Family.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They. I don't know. I feel I've matured quite a lot through that and reconnecting with them again, they.

Because they didn't know about the cult Stuff they still don't know.

Yeah.

But change so much that I can adapt to their.

The.

The dynamic.

Yeah.

In the.

In my family. And I feel respected and I feel loved, and that's what I always wanted and needed as a child. And it's come full circle. Like.

Yeah.

I'm getting what I always wanted and. And that's the love of family. And because of the Vietnamese kind of influence. It's family orientated.

Right.

It's. That's what it is. And I think that's what it is about in life.

Right.

The purpose for me now is connection. Connection to people and especially family.

Because, you know, like, it's the family system that will affect communities and it will spread out with that ripple effect.

Right.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I, like, actually, I'm gonna ask one question before I ask what I ask last all the time, but because you've mentioned the doco a couple of times, I am curious what it is like for you seeing, like, Providence in mainstream media, like Liz's book on Netflix, like, it being talked about, like, what is that like for you?

Yeah.

My speaking out against him on Instagram.

Right.

We've done all the work already. And then it was a snowball effect. Then I met Amy and like, you know, she did her stuff. So when she did her Tik Tok, it went viral.

Yeah.

Right.

To whatever, one point something million in a span of three days. And then she messaged me. It's gone viral. Right. So I was on that journey with them anyway.

So I'm not surprised seeing it, but then actually seeing the documentary because I knew it was coming out and everything. I knew the gist of it, but just to hear the horrors. Yeah, it was very triggering. Yeah, it angered me.

And.

Yeah, but it's reality, isn't it? And.

Yeah.

And then seeing the trailer for the second one that's coming out on the 15th of August.

Yeah.

And seeing the two. I see that. No, it had an eerie, eerie feeling, like. I don't know how to explain it. It just went.

She was through my body when I saw her speak, because her voice. You remember the voice from Imprinted. Yeah, yeah. Where, like the framing of it. Oh, we want to hear more of her voice.

Like, her preaching is so powerful to. Oh, my gosh. Like, there's this hollow feeling about it. I don't know how else to explain that, but. And then it sent my blood boiling after seeing her.

The cult is still Active. Right. Like, it's still happening. Like, I think a lot of the time people think, you know, okay, they're in prison. Like, it's now out. There's a whole.

Like, there's multiple books, Dockers, like, shit's going viral. It's still active.

It's still active because they have a system and they have an ideology, and you cannot destroy the ideology.

Yeah.

How do you get rid of an ideology unless you eliminate them? Which is not what we're gonna do.

Yeah.

So it's very difficult when you have a system and an ideology. It's a very powerful combination, and it takes on a life of its own.

Yeah.

Right.

Even if the occult leader is out of the picture, it's going to keep running as long as it wants. I have actually spoken to someone from the World Mission Society, Church of God, which is another Korean high control group.

Yeah.

Oh, gosh.

So these cults are very insidious and opportunist and intentional and deliberate, and they will scheme and, like, they actually want to target people in this way and very systematic in doing it. Just think of an army system. Like, they're very coordinated. That's what makes it very damaging.

Because once you know, you're like, gosh, like, I've been manipulated in that way, you actually learn their way of doing it and you do it to others.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, goodness. I'm so glad that you are sitting here talking to me about it, because you're not there.

So I'm grateful for you sharing, but I like to finish these episodes with some encouragement for people. And so if someone out there is listening and like you in that moment, their world had just fallen apart. The ground beneath them is no longer there.

What would you say to that person?

I would say it is normal to feel that way. And it does get better. And it needs to hurt now before it gets better. You have to expect that. That. And it's not a quick fix.

It's a very slow process, but it is worthy to go through it because you're the one carving your life out now. It's not anyone dictating to you what you're doing.

Yeah.

You decide. You have the power of decision making now, whereas before you didn't. Everything was decided for you. So I'd like to encourage them take those steps.

Make mistakes. You're allowed to make mistakes now in the high control. You're absolutely not.

Yeah.

So just do it and sense it out for yourself. Get the right people around you and you'll start to find you. You will feel color coming back into your life.

Oh, what a beautiful way to put it. I love that. I don't want to say a single thing after that. That was beautiful. Okay. But I am going to say thank you.

Thank you for joining me and thank you for sharing and for working in this space as well. It is grossly underrepresented to work in cult recovery and so I like, I'm grateful for that as well.

But more than anything, I'm grateful for you sitting here and sharing your story.

So thank you.

Thanks, Sam. It's been a pleasure and it's, it's been really enjoyable sharing my story. So, yeah, thanks for the platform.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

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Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.