Do you ever feel like you're trying to keep it cool, but you’re secretly raging under the surface?

If you're a Type 9, or close to one, you’ve likely wrestled with feeling overlooked, overextended, and underboundaried. This rich panel conversation dives into the lived experience of core Type 9s, shedding light on how the desire for peace often masks struggles with anger, identity, and merging with others.

Learn how the different wings (9w1 vs. 9w8) shape how Nines handle conflict, personal space, and boundaries.

Hear real Enneagram 9s describe how “merging” actually feels in the body, and why it’s not just a metaphor.

Discover the surprising assertiveness that emerges when a Nine feels truly safe and situated.

Tune in now to hear this heartfelt, funny conversation that will transform how you understand and embody the Nine experience.

LINKS

Learn at The Enneagram School

https://theenneagramschool.com/

Intro Course

https://www.theenneagramschool.com/intro-enneagram-course

Get Typed

https://www.enneagrammer.com/

Sinsomnia Podcast (Dreams)

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sinsomnia/id1684154994

House of Enneagram

https://www.youtube.com/@houseofenneagram

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 - Intro

01:03 - Introduction of our 9 panel, type 9 description, topics of merging; boundaries, the body center

19:42 - Managing our sensory availability, handling 'violations', individuating while not dissolving, anger revealing needs/attention and performance

54:03 - ‘Premature buddha', 9s coming in to their power

01:04:42 - Type 9 in leadership, comfort vs 'finding the grooves' to fit in, being a part of the environment vs feeling energetic force fields

01:19:13 - Distinctions between 9w1 and 9w8, how a wing supports attachment, different forms of 'peacekeeping', frustration or rejection

01:46:30 - Outro

CREDITS

Interview by Josh Lavine

Edited by Kristen Oberly

Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay

Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/

Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

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#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram9

Josh Lavine 0:00

The following is a conversation with four Enneagram type, nines, two nine wing ones and two nine wing eights. By the end of this conversation, you'll see how the differences in Wing between nine wing one and nine wing eight shape how a core nine experiences conflict, manages boundary violations, and also just deals with any kind of environmental disturbance. You'll also learn about the surprising amount of assertiveness that nines can have when they feel really safe and situated in a context, which is something that I don't think is talked about nearly enough, because nines can have very powerful energies. And you'll also learn about how nines lose touch with themselves by numbing and merging unconsciously energetically with their environments, and what to do about it. How to recover yourself if you are a nine who has done so, and not only that, but the beautiful, grounded flow state that nines emerge into when they have done the work. My name is Josh Levine, and I'm an Enneagram expert and type three, and on this show, I help you go past stereotypical type descriptions to see what it's like to be each type from the inside and to use the Enneagram for meaningful personal growth and transformation. Welcome to what it's like to be you.

Josh Lavine 1:10

All right.

Josh Lavine 1:11

So welcome everyone.

Josh Lavine 1:13

Let's just go around the around the horn. So let's just go Alexandra, you want to introduce yourself? Sure?

Alexandra 1:20

Are we doing like the full, okay. My name is Alexandra.

Alexandra 1:26

I'm a social self preservation nine, wing one with six and three fixes. Okay, cool and Kristen.

Kristen 1:35

I am Kristen. I'm a social self preservation nine, wing one with six and three fixes. And Anna,

Anna Palumbo 1:45

I'm Anna. I'm a nine wing, eight with seven and three fixes. Social self press, great. And Charles,

Charles 1:53

yeah, I'm Charles. What am I? Social self press, 963, I'm merging with the room right now.

Josh Lavine 2:04

So what's cool about this panel is that all of you guys are core nines. You all have the same instinctual stacking, social self pres, and all of you have a three fix. And all most of you have a six fix. Anna, you being the exception. The exception, you have a seven fix. But because there's so much else that's similar in your typing, the wing differences are going to really pop. And so I'm going to start by just kind of giving a general description of type nine, and then take your reactions about what you relate to, and then we'll kind of go from there. So

Josh Lavine 2:42

type nine is a type in the body sensor, and as a type in the body sensor, it is oriented around

Josh Lavine 2:51

its sensory experience and having boundaries against unwanted demands and violations, and it wants to use its life force on its own terms. And types eight, nine and one in the body sensor all have different strategies for strategies for having agency in the world. Type nine is the strategy of essentially

Josh Lavine 3:09

wanting the environment to hold it in a kind of sensory, balmy way

Josh Lavine 3:15

and not jar it and kind of congrue with its life force. And of course, when life doesn't do that, nine kind of can numb or dissociate or check out and try to go with the flow. And part of the growth for nine is learning how to remain a solid, bounded object and assert my agenda against the environment when it's not coinciding with my life force. And

Josh Lavine 3:38

maybe I'll stop there, actually, just as a very that was a very, very basic overall description, and take some reflections and kind of see where you, where you where you are with that. So Alexandra, let's start with you.

Alexandra 3:49

God, okay, I mean my first reaction, I don't know if there's any kind of format here, but my first reaction is just how exhausting it even sounds. It's like, I know, with the physical practice of it, with the somatic practice of having to assert my my here Ness, against an environment that's not doing what it's what I'm wanting it to do. But even just hearing you say that description is just already so exhausting. It's just so much easier to just try to melt into whatever the environment is providing for you and just deal and that's just, I mean, even listening to you say that, it's just like, Oh yeah, that is what nine is, because trying to assert against anything is just so hard. It's just it takes so much effort, it takes so much energy, takes so much like,

Alexandra 4:33

yeah, having to, like, condense myself into, like, a solid being, and then, and that already takes a lot of work. And then the idea of having to do that and push against something that

Alexandra 4:45

isn't accommodating,

Alexandra 4:48

it's just so I don't I wish there was something more like deep or profound I could say about it, but it's just so annoying.

Alexandra 4:56

Why wouldn't you just be better for me? I.

Alexandra 5:00

Yeah,

Alexandra 5:02

it's, it's probably not too early to say this, but that word annoying. Maybe we'll come back in the context of having a one wing also, for sure. But yeah, let's take some other just reflections. Yeah, feel free to just jump in

Josh Lavine 5:16

saying that to a group of nines. By the way, we'll see who takes up the invitation.

Anna Palumbo 5:24

I would say that

Anna Palumbo 5:27

it just kind of feels like the nine experience is always about, like a moving target, like we want the piece, but like it's so so touch and go, because there's that, like, self narcolepsy part that is like, Oh yeah, here it is. It's great. And then you get comfortable, and then you're like, asleep again.

Anna Palumbo 5:48

So that, like the merge on Merge.

Anna Palumbo 5:52

It's just it happens so much that it's like,

Anna Palumbo 5:59

it feels kind of like water, almost right? It's

Anna Palumbo 6:04

hard to feel anything tangible in a sense.

Josh Lavine 6:08

Can you say more about the merge? And actually this, I'm curious about differences between nine and one and nine weight in the way that you guys merge. But just for people who are listening to this, who are still kind of under trying to understand what nine is like, what, what is merging?

Anna Palumbo 6:26

Oh, I would say that it's kind of like looking for an outside supply of life force. So it's not having, like, not being in touch with that own, like, generative quality. So it's in a way, like, you know that sloth part comes in where you're just sort of like asleep to the self and then attracted to whatever might be strongest outside of you, because that's like, upright, up, regulating you, and sort of like putting you in touch with reality, in a way. But it's like a proxy for,

Anna Palumbo 6:58

like, self, location.

Josh Lavine 7:01

That makes sense. It does. Yeah, other Yeah. Where are you guys at Kristin and Charles?

Kristen 7:09

I would just quick add on to the merge part that it also feels like

Kristen 7:15

boundaries can be very

Kristen 7:19

confusing and so, like, sometimes I'll get, I mean, I have a one wing, so I'll get irritated over

Kristen 7:27

a perceived boundary being violated or something, when really it is kind of like I am just open. I don't realize it, because it's very unconscious, but I am very open to the things happening around me. And so I think that's where, like, the anger and stubbornness and whatever of any nine can come from, that perceived violation of not having us or sensing the solid boundary. And that's what gives kind of, like the merging quality, like I'm merging not consciously, but just kind of always in my environment.

Alexandra 8:02

Another so obviously, nine has a lot of romantic energy, or at least, I'll speak for myself as a nine, I have a ton of romantic energy around merging. It just feels like the heightened state of like,

Alexandra 8:13

you know, union back with like, original source. And it's just like, I don't have to be here anymore because I'm connected into, like, the avatar tree mother thing, I don't have to do anything for myself anymore. It's just, it's all happening. But anyway, the as Kristen was saying, like the negative merge state, is just, yeah, having all of your boundaries open and realizing that you're reacting to things that actually have nothing to do with you. But I would say the positive iteration of that, or maybe it's not positive. Maybe it's just like a neutral thing is I lose sense of where my boundaries are and where, because I'm speaking socially here, because we're all social, have social objects, I lose sense of where I end and begin, and also where another person ends and begins, which just feels like it's all where you and me are, just like in the same pool, just mixing around together. Sorry, my cat is here.

Charles 9:07

I find

Charles 9:09

the wording around merging a little bit offensive sometimes.

Charles 9:13

I mean, we're definitely doing it, but I think I've spent a lifetime trying to trick myself that I'm not, you know, in one sense or another. And what's interesting is so you see such a variation in nines. To begin, let me, let me go back here a little bit the it's

Charles 9:32

almost like a mini Enneagram in the nine. It's like the nine is not just numbing to the environment. They're numbing to themselves, like who they are, and what they are.

Charles 9:42

And the nine is sort of the what people see in the outside the nine is sort of emerging from that, like

Charles 9:49

the base of like my six fix, or my three fix, or my social self prize, or any other system. And those things are right here. And I'm keeping it kind of at a level where you're not going to get that you're.

Not going to get me till that merging that Alexandra was talking about, kind of kicks in. So there's like a this might get into the nine eight verse, nine one, but there's a pre emptive sort of wall, you know? But I feel like the nine we eight is, is generally putting up, or maybe better at putting up than the nine wing one is. That's a

protective mechanism. It's not like they're, you know, less feeling or less something. It's just, it's just a learned habit. And if you do that over the course of your life, like I'm a middle aged guy just had my 45th birthday, you know, raised four adult kids,

when you let that go and go and go, you can get into this sort of anhedonic state, you know, where you don't even remember how to feel or how to pay attention to your body, you know, that sort of thing. Not to bring the conversation down,

but slowly. But I'm trying to, trying to remember what, what nine is. But yeah, like in the community, the typology community and stuff. There's just so many, so many different types of nine and, you know, the prickly nines, or the, you know, the dismissive, avoidant nines, you know, whatever. It's just, it's a very interesting sort of mix. It's almost like, again, like an Enneagram into itself, just like the bring me Bermuda, the 936, TriFlex is kind of its own Enneagram. It's interesting.

I can relate Charles from what you're talking about, as far as, like, the distance or boundary,

and and my sense of it and myself is like, I'm not aware initially when that boundary has been crossed, but I'll be like, upset and irritated, and then I have to follow that thread back, because it's not like sirens go off when my boundary is crossed at all, right? It's like, all of a sudden, you know, I'm super grumpy, and I want everyone to go away and have to kind of, like, unravel that story and figure out where it was. And sometimes it's like, days ago,

and then something just sort of like resurfaced and brought it up again, and it's like, you know, the straw that breaks the camel's back. And you're like, Oh my God. Like

that boundary now all my boundaries feel

activated because of something that I ignored, you know, a while ago,

slow to process.

Yeah, I can relate to all of that as well. And it's like,

I think even just talking about the body center, just in general, and like, why I think nines can be so, like differing is, like, the the body Center and the body in general, is very

pre verbal, and so there's a lot that you're working with in the body center that just isn't, like, as quick to understand, because it's very abstract and it's very sensory, like, and when you get into the sensory realms, like even Josh, when you were explaining the description of nine, what came up for me is just like, how much like philosophy and psychology I have to get into to even understand the body is doing. So to understand, like nine as it's what it's doing is just, I think, so different for everybody, because it's like

to interpret what comes up in like a sensory response to the environment, like period, philosophically, is just like a really strange thing to try to do. So there are, like, I mean, even if you think of like somatic experience, or like other types of body movement kind of things, that it's all just very abstract territory that you kind of have to get into to understand, like the body's language, I guess.

So I think that even just probably why a lot of people don't even type as nines, or mistype as something else, because it's just hard to understand what, what the body center is.

That's why I didn't, I didn't type as a nine for a while because I hear the word body and I'm like, Oh, well, that's not me. I don't know what

that's not what I'm doing, whatever that is. And I think I kind of read it or heard it in a more self preservation kind of way, and I don't have that,

or even

just a more heck sad way, like, I imagine, like an eight or a one in the body center would have felt more like, Oh, here's, you know, it's like,

what's his name, King Kong, or whatever. Just like beating his chest like that, like, I don't have that type of relationship to my body. It is so much more like the boundaries are just so much more watery and so much more fluid. So it feels like if something's coming, coming, coming and trying to invade my boundaries, then I'll just pull back, pull back, pull back, pull back, so that they the outside object can, like, feel like it's doing what it wants to do, and like I'm going along with it. But.

Really, my boundaries have been just pulled so far back that

it's still I don't feel affected by it. But then it's like, to bring it back to what Anna was saying. But then it's like, then days, or, you know, hours, or, I don't know, weeks, months, years, sometimes later, I'll realize that I'm in this contorted state. Because to, how do I say to, like, re expand outside of that contortion would be to experience the fact that I'm going to be violated by what everything has actually invaded my space, and so now I'm stuck back here, and if I do expand, then it like pops the boundary, and then it's like all the rage and all of the violation and all of the,

you know, frustration, for the sake of the one wing comes out in reaction to that boundary violation, you know. So it's like, yeah, so it's hard. It's going to be hard to type yourself as a nine outside of like the mystic, the mysticism, the spirituality, all of these, like, softer elements, if it's just rooted in the body, it might be hard to to see yourself in that description first, because it's just not going to be this, like righteous or powerful kind of King Kong energy. Going to be water, more watery than that. The pre verbal is really interesting too, because there's so much language out there for feeling. And, you know, the course of my life, I didn't relate to a lot of that. Didn't even know what, what are they talking about? Not that they didn't feel. Didn't feel it's just, it's almost like how, you know, just remembering back to my sensation from perception studies in college, you know, Psych studies, everybody experiences so many sensations and perceptions differently, you know, and uniquely. And I think this pre verbal experience is definitely very personal. You know, it's another thing that could make nine so different than each other, but, um, but applying the language later is almost like justification, or

what's the word for it, but, but basically you're putting language is something just doesn't you can't put language to sometimes you just can't, yeah,

yeah. It can feel like hyper personal in that sense, which I think can be, can and has been right in typological, I don't know avenues, people have confused that for like identity material, when it is just like the personalness of the body center. Instead, do

you guys relate to this? What Charles was saying about being offended by the word merge?

No, but I

romanticism to the word merge. So I kind of do, I think, like I get it, but I sort of like any kind of attachment language. I'm not the biggest fan of because

I'm I've perceived myself for a while as, like a I mean, I'm a very introverted, withdrawn kind of person, and I think the stubbornness of nine like you, you think that you're separate, like Charles was saying, like, yeah, I am. Somehow I have a self concept that I am very separate, and I can see what those the separate, like tension, kind of energy I have with others, or the environment or whatever.

So merging is kind of harder for me to like,

really, like, I really have to consciously get into it and understand why that's happening for but I do believe it's true. I don't think I get like, too offended, but I think the language of attachment and stuff and nine in general can get irritating.

That's an interesting yeah, that's okay. So what that brings up for me is that I think, like the romanticism I have around the word merge, it's making me realize that I always think merge is like a state that I haven't yet gotten to, and I can forget that I'm like, already in it. And the frustration that I feel from like, the lack of what I'm wanting from the environment means that I'm not yet merged, but Right, the reactivity that I'm experiencing from that is already the merged state.

That's good, that's that's good, that's fun. That sucks. Yeah. It.

I think in my brain, like, merge, and then there's also like,

like, dilute, like, there's a part of me that, like, on a body sense, feels like diluted or dissolved, or

not necessarily merged, as in, like I am joining because that merged, it seems to me to have, like, a little bit more of like a consensual

aspect to it, where I kind of feel like I'm just like more like something that's been dropped in a liquid and like diluting

and so it feels, you know, kind of outside of my realm of control.

But yeah, unconsciously, anyways, when I'm in a healthier state, it is more within my control. But,

um.

Hmm. So one of the ideas that I've been working with and developing for my book

is the idea that in our ontology, like the way that we exist, is that we are a sensory availability, because and not it's like we have a nervous system. We can't We can't ever block out sensation, and

we have

rage because because of our sensory availability. In other words, we cannot block out pain. The

condition of being alive means that we are open to being violated, to being demanded upon, to being harassed by anything out there in the world, or even by things that arise from within our own bodies, like a stomach ache or indigestion or whatever. You know, there's always going to be some level of sensory violation and dysregulation. And as a strategy, eight, kind of tries to preemptively numb itself or close off to the sensory impact of its environment. One tries to go fix anything that's wrong. It's an environment. And nine,

kind of holds out the hope that its sensory experience will be nice and balmy and hold it.

And because of that hope, it stays open and porous, which is itself kind of this like somatic diffusion into its surroundings, as opposed to the preemptive closure that, for example, eight has, or the, I don't know, like, sandpaper equality that one has, you know, so this, this the word merging. Let's see how to put this. It's kind of like, I can imagine someone reads that in a description and

just doesn't really get what it means. Because it's like, I don't know, what does it mean? Like, like, there's the physical body dissolving, and then you're becoming kind of one with something else, like, that's not actually, we're not talking about physical spatiality. We're talking about like a psychic condition of availability for sensory impact. And Alexandra, you've used the phrase before, I really liked, like you feel like you're living in a house without walls,

or just everything from the environment is all the energies, all the competing agendas, all the tensions just out there you experience as if they're inside you, you know? And that's that's kind of like the core nine porousness, and that's what it means to be merged, right? It's like somatically diffuse and merged into

its space. So one of the things I'm curious about to hear you guys talk about is like how,

how being sensorily available all the time, kind of drawing on the the strategies of like frustration or rejection

to both maintain your like somatic or availability, but also your individuality. And then there's kind of like this, this idea that I've been really working on or with is like nines embodying a kind of

somatic ambivalence where it's like, I want, I want to be open and available, because I want the environment to hold me, and so I want to dissolve, you know, like, into the environment and just be kind of like nicely, warmly held with everything at the same time, I have my own preferences and agendas as a being,

and I want to be consistent and congruent with my own life force. But in order to do that, I have to individuate and then kind of undissolve myself from the environment. But I kind of can't do either fully because when I'm fully dissolved, and then my life force comes up, and it's incongruent with the environment, that's annoying. But when I'm fully annoyed, when I'm fully individuated, then I'm not I'm not feeling as held by the world as I would if I were dissolved, and that's annoying. And so I kind of like, it's like, I can't quite choose, and I stay in this in between state

and manage, manage that, I don't know, just somehow it's just kind of the perpetual state that I live in as a nine

being angry,

yes, and that creates all this like this, like storminess, right for storminess and frustration, which often gets confused for four, but it's actually there's like, this very powerful instinctual energy that's trying to, like, compress and reroute itself and and stay in this, like, you know, what am I going to do? Am I going to stay emerged? Am I going to individuate or what? And this storminess comes up, and it's like, I don't know what to do with it, and I sometimes express it in the style of eight or one,

but yeah, that's to me, that's, I don't know I was, I've been, like, really working with that idea as, like core nine, like the core nine struggle.

There's like a composure that all nines, both sides, 9198,

exhibit, I think, or have practice or something, just to function in the world, just sort of like, for example, as a kid, I practiced

not expressing my face right, just because it was easier, that way caused less problems. You know, you know, when you're, I guess, shrinking yourself or something. So there's.

People can just take up the space. It's easier, you know,

you know, you can see in action the 98 versus the naming one, and the way they sort of present, or the 91 has that sort of, like, I don't know, that calm, cool air, like, almost, I don't know, how do I say this without offending somebody? I of like, classy sort of thing going on, you know, typically, is what I noticed with nine months. Then you have your 98 that's just, it's that just looks like often, you know, especially if they have an imposing physical presence. Just like, Don't bug me, don't whatever, you know, not giving you a lot, you know, you know the text I'm talking about, just sort of lumping through the world,

but yeah, and I forgot where I was going at but I was playing off whatever you were saying. Josh, I think nines, no matter their dominant instinct, are really trying to, like, keep things neutral for that reason, like internally and externally, and whatever that may look like. That's why I think, like, you know, for me, I have been a very confrontational nine, but it's mainly to

get things harmonious. Like the world out there is not ideal, and I need to, like, fight it sometimes, to try and, like, get it to so that I feel regulated. And that's the thing. Like, a nine is going to use whatever its dominant instinct is to to regulate itself. Because it it like, that's the attachment object, you know, because of nine being attachment type, and so it's like, yeah, that

can cause a lot of like, energy to go to the object, rather than the individuation process, rather than the individual like, what my concept of self is and what I want, what I desire, what I actually want to be, using my energy for it all gets distracted into whatever the object is that I'm fixated on. And so it's like,

in that sense, in all the moments that I have, like, let go of the object, and it feels like violating and like disruptive and I mean, I think maybe the first couple of times, maybe after a while, once you're

you're you're trying to align your life a little bit more, it gets kind of a bit more liberating. But in the times that I have

let go of the object and kind of freed up all that energy, it does feel like, oh my gosh, I'm a being that can make impact in this world, like in these ways, like I can, like, these choices are actually mine, and I just have to, like, kind of, I mean, for me having a one wing, it's like, stop being so frustrated over and over again, but actually, like,

like, divorce myself from the object of frustration. Like, and this means for me, like, I get I, you know, I remove people from my life. I remove situations from my life that are, are continuing this dynamic. And it's, it's mainly, it's, it's not obviously, because, like, people are, you know, I could do all the social things I want to make people into the demons, but really, it's because I'm the one that continues to try to attach and attach, and that's just not working. It's just, you know, like some, I think that's the thing with nines, is that sometimes it's just admitting that, like, this isn't working, I have to just stop doing it, period, and, like, redirect myself, and all of a sudden my energy is, like, feels so liberated, because I've I've pivoted, and I've made that choice consciously and on my own. You know, without being pushed by something externally, I think that's where it's like

when, when you start to accept that, or feel that life is actually very like

generative of energy and not so kind of like numbing and not so, like I'm chasing an ideal, and not so, like I need to just constantly regulate myself. You know what I mean? Like that the stuff that nine does to try and survive is can be very deadening, even though it doesn't feel that way, I don't think for some people, but

it does when you actually free it up.

The difference between flow, right? Like the state of being in flow, which I think a lot of people seek, not just nines, but it's definitely like an ideal state for me, you know, doing it, just being and living and just feeling, you know, one with everything, like you guys have been saying, to the point where my mind, my

focus on the body and what it's telling me and feelings just doesn't exist in the same way, you know, as it does, like the Battle of being human. It's, you know, let's stop being so. So you know, what's the word for it?

The part of yourself that's watching yourself stop being that for a while and just be you know, it's definitely ideal.

Yeah, it's a hard volley back and forth. Just to go back to what Josh was saying, I like how you framed it. Josh, this, this, yeah, this. Need to individuate and and be aligned with your preferences and all of that kind of stuff, versus be merged. And, you know, use the word dissolved, the word that's been coming up for me over the past several months, as far as nine goes, is surrendered. And that's what I feel like my like ideal state is, is just like, just, just be done. Just

like, it's like a little death all the time, but in like, a good way, just be surrendered to everything. But the thing is, yeah, I am a person with my own preferences and my own ways of being and my own I

don't know, like corners and edges. And to be in a surrendered state means that I'm

allowing things that are misaligned to come into my field, and then so it just always feels like a cycle for me to kind of come into an environment. And this can be like a new relationship with a person,

a new like work environment. This is all social stuff, whatever, new social environments where it feels like I'm I'm going into the environment, and I'm just surveying the land, right? The social land, the relational land. And so I'm going in that without preferences, specifically, just to know what the territory is like. And then eventually, once I feel like I know it, I'm trying to make myself comfortable. I'm trying to make myself comfortable. I'm trying to like fit, and, you know, Tetris myself into this new land. And then eventually, as always happens, every single fucking time, it's like my edges come out and it starts to poke up against things. And I will have a reaction as to I'll have one of two reactions. One, I'll do this one wing in on myself where I'm just like, oh, what's wrong with me that I can't harmonize with this well enough. Or I'll send that out towards the environment where I'm like, What the fuck is wrong with you that you aren't returning this kind of consideration? Um, so it's, it's that kind of, it's the kind of process of just like, surveying and surrendering, versus then having this kind of one wing activation of just trying to, like, zap everything that doesn't feel comfortable to me, a way for me to make more space. But then

the surrender comes back in, you know? And it's like what I said in the beginning, we're just to have to continue doing that just feels so exhausting all the time. It's just this constant exhausting cycle. So there's that. But then when what Kristin talks about,

and even further down the line, which is just to there is, okay, let's see, how do I want to say this? There is something about, I

don't know, just allowing yourself to be affected like and this is all just easier said than done, but just completely allowing yourself to be affected by what's rubbing up against your edges, the other people's edges that you're rubbing up rubbing up against, because you're not actually a person that doesn't exist and can blend into any environment perfectly, and feeling the wholeness of your own life force in that sensory experience, and then feeling the strength that comes from being able to hold and contain that sensory experience that ends up becoming like its own individuation process, where it's like, I'm merged and I'm here, but I'm still an individual, but I'm still connected, but I'm still a person with preferences, and that's part of the harmony.

I wonder, like I can make, oh, sorry, I'm

just gonna say I feel like I make people really comfortable at the beginning, but inevitably, like, I'm going to assert myself at some point. It's kind of what you're saying, yeah, and then it comes off, and I'm like, oh shit, you know,

like, withdraw back. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean it that way. Or sorry You go ahead,

you know, like, even just simple things, like where I want to sit at the restaurant, like, sitting there, like, okay. And I'm like, oh, sorry. Did you want

to see you know, then the six starts popping in, and I'm like, Oh yeah, but no, I'm just kidding, but yeah, there's definitely a pendulum swing here.

You know what occurs to me about what you're saying Alexandra, is like,

it's like nines will assert themselves to

to deal with whatever has been sensory violating them. And once that is done, either like they do that, and I kind of with the eight wing, kind of like blocking it out, or moving it outside of their field, or or or numbing to whatever they do, cutting it off, or one kind of, like fussing about it, fixing it, giving giving it that kind of zap energy that you're saying,

it's like, once that, once they've completed that, like they've removed the sensory annoyance, and then to get everything back to baseline, you know, to assess.

To a level of placidity that's manageable, you know. And and then once it's there nine just go, okay, like, like, my work is done and I can now, I can rest forever, you know.

And that delusion starts again. Of like, Okay, I won't ever have to do that again, you know.

Finally, it's fine once we are living happily ever after now and yeah, and so, but again.

But I guess it's there's something about this that's like this, what nine is it was like,

is constantly, accidentally, unconsciously losing sight of, is the necessity of having resolve to face and deal with sensory violations and unwanted demands. And there's like this even, even in the assertion of nine, there is this, like the hope, the fantasy that once I'm done here, it'll all be gone and I won't have to do that again, as opposed to the just sort of the acceptance and the commitment to be constantly in that project of pruning, of pruning myself, of dealing with violations being in the world.

Not to out the nines here, but you know, we can get into that state where we're just like, let's just chill forever. Everything's great,

but there's some subconscious peace in myself. And I've noticed in other nines in my life where

they're going to pop in with something, something's not going to be right, you know, because, like you said, it could be something from two years ago last week. And the funny thing is, about nines, they're often projecting or or what's the word dispersing. So you can see their reaction to something as simple as someone chewing loudly. But it's not the chewing loudly that's upsetting the nine and agitating them and they finally say something. It's whatever they're mad at that person about, or something that's been going on for three weeks. You know what I mean? Yes, you know, just something I've noticed in myself.

I think, I think that goes, yeah, that goes to, like, the whole, like, body being pre verbal and just abstract, because it's that thing where it's like, you think of like, when you have like, a stomach ache or something, it comes up and immediately demands your attention. You're like, Okay, what do I need? What's going to help this? Where did this come from? You know, like you're trying to decipher a need in order to, kind of, like, get back to a stable place. So imagining that as, like, kind of more of a psychic phenomenon, where it's like, something comes up and it's like, okay, this is an if it's even conscious. And I think that's the part where nines can have a hard time seeing that a need being

not met, either by yourself or by your environment, is incredibly unconscious. Like, that's the thing with me as a nine growing up like, I did not say my needs at all. I didn't even think I had any like, and I think every Yeah, nine can kind of relate to like, being incredibly confused about their needs and what they are and where to get them. And you know what? What is my responsibility versus what is a responsibility in a relationship versus what is a responsibility in a society like all that needs to kind of be, like, considered and parsed through and understood when something comes up, like in that psychic space that's sort of psychosomatic in a sense,

and that's like, really hard, but is like you're saying, Josh, something that in in the

individuation process, it's something that is constantly occurring, and it's something constantly to be tended to, and constantly to be in communication with like, which is, yeah, one of the things that can like, when you Put it that way, feels and sounds really annoying, because as like a personality, object relations style, it is much easier to sort of just tune out all of those needs and kind of make them vague and something else's responsibility. You know.

Yeah, yeah. It also it just is so easy to lead with space. It just always, every single time, just from back to childhood, being like, I don't know what my needs are. Nobody's asking me what they are. Maybe sometimes they're even making me feel bad when I do express them in some indirect, nonverbal way. So then you get older, blah, blah, blah, and you just continue leading with space. And then, at least in my experience, it's always been when I do run into what I experience as like irritants, or like, you know, a lack of consideration, or, I don't know, something that feels bad or wrong, or all these, like one ish, you know, words that those are the edges that end up teaching me what my needs are. Hey, I need this. I'm actually not getting enough of this. And it's those, you know. So it's not.

Necessarily about correcting it, but it's teaching

me. It's teaching me the way that I take up space and the way that I need to be like, met and held and yeah, I guess that was it. That's definitely a growth area for nine to like, the willingness to look out for that stuff and then act on it, that information versus, like, putting itself aside

growing up, I always conflated having needs with like a weakness, which I think is like more of a nine wing, eight flavor, maybe. But it was kind of like, you know that doubling down on autonomy, like, if I didn't have a need, then nobody

say. It kind of like

I didn't need anybody else, in a way, it's kind of,

yeah. It was my way. I was sort of

feeling self reliant,

Yeah,

mom that was trying to anticipate everything. That's a really interesting point. I'm wondering if that's a distinction between nine we want just that the I think so.

Can you say more about the self reliance piece or the like feeling like it's a weakness? Anna,

so I think for me, it's kind of like

it feels like I'm giving away my power, if I have to admit

to the rest of the world, or somebody else that I have a need and I can't meet it myself.

Because I think there is a way that, like, maybe 918, in particular, is, like, more self reliant.

And,

yeah, there's, there's less

willingness to be vulnerable, maybe in that way.

Yeah, that's right. I would say for me, it felt like if I showed needs, then I would be a problem. That's how I experienced. That's what I was gonna say, too, that it was less I can find a way to relate to like this does give my power away and opens me up to vulnerability, but what it opened me up to was criticism when it would opened me up to a certain kind of like, a certain kind of shaming for being like a prickly problem by having needs, right? So there was the morality edge, like, if you're being needy, then you're not being considerate, you're not being respectful, you're just being disruptive. You're blah, blah, blah, and now we all have to pay attention to you, because, yeah, problem now, and, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah,

yeah, power and more about like, Oh no. I just, I don't. I'm not trying to invite all that wrath towards me. Yeah, and now, and, I mean, maybe this is a Bermuda flavor for me, it's too that it's like,

when I become a problem, then I am, like, very unfavorable to others, or whatever is going on. Like, I I become too

of a too much of a person if I do that.

Yeah, if I, if I vocalize needs. So there's this, okay, this is, like a pretty big insight for me, because it feels like, what's with the one wing?

There's like this projection of the superego onto the environment that the the others in the environment will judge you in the way that you judge others when others are annoying you, you know, it's kind of like, yes, that gets projected and then directed at you, so you don't want to be the source of irritation for someone else, right?

Whereas for like Anna Charles, do you guys relate to that framing with with an eight wing somewhat? I mean,

I like the way Hannah put it a little better it. I mean, obviously, right, it's a less super ego, but it's that I don't

need anybody. I'm not going to impose on anybody because being invaded, and

I'm not going to invade somebody else's space by being too much, asking too much, having needs, you know, yeah, it's a little it's a little more animalistic, maybe, you know, it's a little more like, this is what we do, you know, versus, seems a bit more territorial. Also, like, that's my turf, and that's not my turf, right? I

also didn't want to attract a lot of attention, you know, I was kind of like, oh, great, you know, if I start, you know, complaining about this or asking for that, then it's, it's gonna be a thing. And I don't, you know, everybody's gonna want to talk about it to me, you know, yeah, that's my experience, because I relate to it too. Then I'll actually have to take up space.

Someone will ask me a question, and I'll want to evaporate, right?

Can we just stay on that? I'll just figure it out. No, open ended questions, please.

Like, why ramble for what is that?

Why? Why is that because? Because my experience of nine is that you actually do.

On attention. You know, I mean, not like, there's this

thing about, no, I just rage when I don't get it.

It's like,

yeah, I This has always sort of puzzled me, because there is,

there is a deep like, with like, with everybody, there is a deep, and I'm using this word in a kind of, I don't know,

textbook or academic sense, not in a pathological sense, but there's a narcissism to every type we all want to be paid attention to. And

nine spends so much of its life and type structure avoiding attention and not taking up space and not being in the spotlight. And then my experiences or my senses that kind of like, it's kind of like they're hoping and wishing someone will notice them anyway, or or something like that, and kind of give, bring them, welcome them in, especially with social, I would say, but, you know, welcome them into the dynamic. Like, here, here's the space. Let me roll out the red carpet for you. We've we've made silence for you to speak, or we've made, we've set a chair at the table, you know. And there's this

kind of, and now you've arrived, and there's this, like the environment has opened up, opened a space for you. You know,

I don't know, but, yeah, there's something about that where it's kind

of confusing problem. I'm confused about this. I'm confused. Why? Why not avoid, avoid so much attention.

I think that in relation because we were talking about negativity, right? Like expressing our problems, and I think that's particularly not comfortable, because we're a positive outlook type, and we're trying to avoid conflict, right? So we're not going to want to take up space in that capacity, maybe more than if it was like a positive situation where we're being, I don't know, praised, or, like sharing our gifts or something like that.

Yeah,

there's a sense there's too much going on

and you can't pay attention to everything, to keep things copacetic, or whatever, whatever you're trying to do, so that, like, even positive attention can be too much or something.

I have this so I have this picture of me when I was, like eight years old, the My mother actually took me, like, dressed me up as, like, King David, took me this church or something. Never been to for this, like, contest, of like,

Halloween contest, you know, sort of thing, and I am just beat red, completely bawling because the attention. And I won, but I just could not stand. And the other thing I was really upset about, she put, like, this pearl necklace on me, and I thought it was for pearls. I was just, like, I was a hot mess, but, um, you know, but it's like that sort of thing. Like, even good attention, it's great in little spurts, but you don't want it for too long, especially, especially bigger groups, like three or more people. There's a lot of there's a dynamic there, and this may come into so this may be a little bit more for the social types too. There's too, too many tendrils out

to know, to know how much space you're allowed to take even when you're being paid attention to or getting accolades.

So, yeah, you crave the attention, right? Like we do, and it shows up you like you've noticed that Josh as a three singing to our souls. Here, you crave the attention to some degree, but at the same time, when you get the attention, it's like, didn't mean to do that, you know, type of thing.

Back to the turtle show, yeah,

yeah. I think in its negative, in its negative state, it's, it's, it's, I don't know it's strange, because it's nine is just, it's not actually this. But to be like, really reductive, nine is just the concave version of three, right? It's just like you, I do want attention, but I want you to come into

all here, this whole palace and just receive

the grandness that is me. It's this, like concave, like glory or whatever, but I'm not going to go out there in order to do it, because I might be disruptive. And also sometimes, like being given too much attention, can feel like a demand, actually, and then it's like, I don't get to act as, like a natural animal being anymore. Now I have to, like, perform something and, right? And what if I didn't want to do that? What if I'm getting attention that it's just like, now going to be the subject of more of this, like, scrutiny, and, you know, stuff like that. And I don't mean like an image scrutiny, I mean like a body scrutiny, right? This is the one wing thing that I was talking about earlier. I don't want to invite that, and so it's just easier to be withdrawn. But yes, I do

nine goes to three, like of course, I want attention

a lot, but not being safe who allows you to do whatever you want without being a.

Judged or demanded upon or, yeah, I don't know, like the the kind of the cave of not being seen is more comfortable because you can. It's like an autonomy thing, like you can, if you're in a cave, you can just do whatever you want, you know, yeah, yeah. And if it puts the answer to someone, yeah, right, exactly, yeah. And if a person comes into my cave, into my environment. It's also I can still do whatever I want, but to come out of that into an environment that is like that can be disrupted by me. It's I'm not going to do that. That's that invites to my you know, I still can and will, but

at my most like scared and fixated, it just invites to it just invites more problems that I will then have to regulate and solve myself for the environment,

I think for me, like, Okay, we were kind of talking about Harry Potter right before

recording. And it reminds me

that

I mean everyone, I mean a lot. I think a lot of nines have that, like, chosen one kind of desire. Yes, that it's like, I just want, I just want Hogwarts to send me a letter that says I'm a wizard. I always knew it deep in my bones, I I'm a wizard, and I just needed Hogwarts to send me a letter and force me into this arena of magic that I get to actually show my courage and my strength and whatever, just because of the special chosen, beautiful quality that I did not manifest myself. It was just in my spirit, you know, like, and someone recognized it, they knew it. And now I'm here, and here's my spirit for everyone to see. Like, that's the glorious

path that I think all nines kind of fantasize about. I think that's why nines can make really great like musicians and artists. Like, I feel like I can really take up space when I am, like, showcasing my work, then I don't feel like I have to

answer to many demands or whatever, because it's like, here's something I'm just as energetic and proud of, and I'm like, I'm it's like, living with me. Here's my art, here's my music, here's my

like, philosophy I'm working on, or something like that. Like, when it's when it's in the craft, I can kind of feel like, I don't have many problems of showing up, but other other sense, like other cases, I feel like when it's just kind of singularly me, it can, I can get kind of distorted, um, showing up because then, yeah, more things kind of become a little

like the merging quality, the confusion of needs, blah blah blah, like social groups. I can get really disoriented around showing up as myself, because it's again, yeah, like, what's permissive, what's too much, what's blah, blah blah, like, that kind of thing. But in the craft, I can show up in the craft because that's my special shiny quality, that is my magic. That is my Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, Gryffindor, whatever that I didn't really choose, but chose me, you know what I mean, but your avatar, in a way, yeah? Avatar, yeah, yeah. Luke Skywalker, I mean, come on, Luke Skywalker, what did he have to do? Master the force. Are you kidding me? The fate of the universe depends on you. Give me a break. It had to be, that has to be a nine story. Because, like, the nine story of that is, he doesn't get to be like, it's, it's like, it's just the perfect nine scenario, because it's the fate of the universe, which is the grand, grand, you know, manifestation of like the narcissism. Yes, yes. It's just like I am actually, the fate of the fucking universe depends on me. Right here, this right here. But also it's not the same. It's like taking up space, but I'm not filling up the space with subjectivity. I'm correcting the space to make it comfortable and to make it harm, like, harmonious and to save it. Yeah, right, the, it's not like the subjective, like, like a classic, narcissistic kind of, like, artistic style or whatever it's, yeah, it's still not about me, but it's like

the hobbits in The Lord of the Rings, like, I just, just give me the ring. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make that journey. I'm gonna take it, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna save the entire world, and then no one's gonna even know it was me, really, you know, like, because I'm so small, and I'm gonna open in the Shire, and just

after I've literally saved everyone, I can now, like, go out on a boat away from all of you. You'll never have to interact with me again, because I can't live with you anymore. I have too much that I've carried. You know,

I can't relate to human beings anymore. That's, that's the path I am obsessed with this.

Like topic, because the chosen one topic, because it's like, it reveals this is like, not something that you'll see in a lot of nine descriptions, but like, the hidden undercurrent of narcissistic grandiosity that is in the nine thing. And it's like, there's this kind of I Am, well, just going back to Harry Potter thing, it's like, I've lived in a cupboard under the stairs. I've been trodden down. I've been ignored, you know, like, with, with my like, like, in particular that story, just the Dursleys, who are the worst family ever, and everyone hates me. And then I'm specially, yeah, and then I'm special for, for no reason, for no for no effort that I had to put forward, you know. And and then all of a sudden, and even in actually, what something that's special about that first book is that, like he discovers all these things, that things just come to his invisibility cloak. It was his dad's. It's just all of a sudden his, you know, and then he magically is amazing at flying a broomstick, you know, without anyway, but there's this, like this. And JK, Rowling is a nine herself, right? But anyway, so we're harping on this Harry Potter thing. But there's this. There is this. It's

kind of remarkable how, almost without fail, all these, like, archetypal, you know, small, downtrodden, invisible, underestimated, kind of figure becomes the hero that saves the world, universe, galaxy,

is almost always a nine that's like the nine, that's a nine story. Wanna I the way that I want my life to come, come out, like to what is it

to proceed? Is that, yeah, like, a really important person has a dream with me in it, and then they go and find me, and I have to, yeah, like, be the next Dalai Lama or whatever because of a dream that someone had that's beautiful. All right, you can be the Dalai Lama. I'll be the ruler of some premature, non existent country, yes, yeah, yeah. I want to be that kind of chosen. Like, I want, I want, like, what the next, the next pope. It's gonna be the next pope s, and it'd be me. I joke about that all the time at work with my co workers. I'm like, the next we're not gonna have a pope. We're gonna have a pope s, and it's gonna be me, because they're gonna have a dream about me, and

they're gonna be like, Who is this 30 something year old woman from Pennsylvania,

prophesies one like the nine dreams and the three dreams are just so they're just so different. It's Kristin and I talking about being the Dalai Lama. And rulers of entire

countries are just like, I shouldn't be the best I can. I should be the ruler of the universe. But cool, keep waking up at six.

No fantasy at play here. What are you doing to get there nothing. I'm already it. It's gonna find me, or it's not, yeah, or I'm just not meant for it. You know,

it's just totally toxic relationship to just like, I shouldn't actually have to, like, curate or carve myself out me and my like, raw, natural form is going to be it good and special and grand enough for the right thing. It's it or it's not it, and I'll just learn to make my not it Ness magical.

Anna Charles, do you relate to this

conversation? She doesn't need to be edited out.

I was just, I was just thinking about it. And there is this sort of like quality in in nine that,

like, I always joke the premature Buddha, like, I've already ascended

all these edges I'm softening all the stuff I'm holding back from you. I'm sparing you, and I'm, you know, yes, I I've ascended. You know, I know what it means to live in the moment, full, full on flow, or whatever the hell they call it in Buddhism. And, you know, but as far as I don't know, if I have those sort of grandiose things, I do have these dreams where it's like I am the chosen one, and I'm the one who is like, trying to get everybody saved or to safety, but nobody's fucking listening to me, you know, like my like my wife will, because it's funny too, because my wife will,

I'll be moaning in my sleep, like, really loudly, because I'm trying to talk so loudly, but nothing's coming out of my mouth. That's like a recurring dream. I think there is something there, something between that mix of

of of feeling like the Savior, feeling like you can take that way to the world, but, you know, it's just, but nobody's seeing you, or they're not listening to you, or something about something's lost in the translation of projection into the into the world, like the right action, like putting it out there, versus, like, yes, in the imagination, or what's inside, or what you feel about yourself. So you'll see so many nines that feel really strongly about certain things, or they'll come off that way. They'll talk about that way. But what you'll notice sometimes, when you really push, really push, they disperse, or they circumvent, or whatever, you know, all the different things to just.

Uh, to not live into that power that they have to be honest with, yeah, I think a lot of things have a lot, a lot more power than they give themselves credit for. I

think I've always like, yeah, I've kind of stayed away from that sort of, like, secret, grandiose longings, because I kind of, I mean, even with my art. So for example, I just took a painting the other day to go make a print reproduction of, and I was like, Oh, I never signed it, which I wouldn't like, I used to never sign my work, because, for some reason, I was like, Oh, my God, I don't need to sign it like it came through me. But, you know, like, yeah, sure, I made it, but I wasn't taking ownership of it. So there's a way that, like, I've always been really sort of, like wary of a stage type of or a platform, because I don't want to invite my ego in, because as soon as my ego comes in, then, like, the purity of whatever I might have to offer is tainted. So if I can, you know, keep my sort of craft and my gifts and all that sort of stuff in, like the Sacred Realm, then it's safer, and I can continue my ego project of having no

ego.

Yeah, that which, I guess that's kind of a classic tagline, right? Of nine, is that the ego, having an ego, about not having an ego, yeah,

that's where the self righteousness or something come in, that sort of attitude that attitude that I'm better than the rest of you, you know, when you're at your darkest, I think sometimes, and then the self victimization that comes along with it, you know, yeah, and I kind of think, like it's us sort of confusing, that we couldn't possibly be powerful without our ego also, like driving it. So it's just like being out of touch with that, like, true, powerful quality, that we might actually know what's best, and we might be able to discern and make decisions to affect others. And that sort of thing

you're saying, you're saying there's like a by not inhabiting your ego, or, like, what nine experience, like, I don't know,

demonizes as quote, unquote ego, by not inhabiting that you're not fully embracing your power, or something like that. I think it's like,

sort of like confusing, like, I feel confused inside that I could be powerful, like, with the absence of ego, or, like, without my ego driving it, because I have, you know, I'm out of touch with my true power and and true like, aware online presence is outside of the ego, but that's such a kind of, like a weak muscle in nine that it gets confused within me, that, like, you know, how could I be, you know, a leader, or, you know, a powerful figure, or, you know, have a loud voice from and still maintain, like, a real, authentic self connection. So that is not distorted,

but that just like that weak muscle talking right? Because, of course, we can do that. It's accessible. How

do you guys, what do you guys make of the fact that, you know,

like, Nines run for president?

I think Obama is, like, my only type twin in your grammar,

but he's,

he's, he's three secondary, right? Or is he six? He's got to be three secondary. No, he's had that. I mean, there's a way that, like, like, the presence of nine feels like, I always think of it as, like, one of those blankets you throw on a fire to, like, neutralize it, right? So it has that sort of like,

like, common quality to the masses. So

that is a leader. That's a great quality to have in a leader.

You know, it's the opposite of, like, eight reactivity, right?

But, you know, how do you, how do you not be owned

by everybody else? Yeah? Well, yeah, I was, I was just going to say, with

nines, like, when they

there's still a way they kind of, like, disown

their, like, power in things. But I think, like, it's still, I don't know, like,

there can be an A healthy and an unhealthy way about it. So like, ones that are running for president, I mean, it is also like you're you're campaigning on a vision that everyone is trying to like, do together. So there's still a way that a nine can kind of like,

not exactly show up, even in themselves, but rather like this is for something else, which is like, a great question.

Quality to have, like, I think, collectively, but what that does personally could be very different, depending on I don't I don't know a lot of the nine presidents experiences, but I'm sure it has impacts individually, just like we see in like celebrity culture that you know when, when nines show up in as a celebrity, and they're, like, you know, a musician or an artist or an actor or whatever, like their their craft again, like it's, it's easy to kind of show up with the craft involved and kind of being emerging as a part of that thing. But then behind the doors, there's all these complications that nines can have with showing up, still to themselves. You know,

this is okay. Something else I've been playing with in terms of, like, a core nine dynamic. And again, part of the thing with nine is it's like, it's hard to get a concrete description of it, because it's so cauldronesque. But the what

I've been playing around with is I've been fascinated by how assertive nines can be when they're comfortable, and how reactive they can be. And, you know, they're not typically an assertive type order, but like, for example, I just, I just delivered a workshop for an executive team, a small executive team, and there were five nines and two sixes on the team. And of the nines, like two of them in particular, had been there for, like, over 10 years, I think so they were, like, super well situated in that context. And I was amazed watching this team interact where the like a nine wing one and a nine wing eight are both the loudest voices in the room causing the most

fuss about like, hey, we need to think about this plan, and we have to have this going on. And if we don't do it was, it was almost as if they were

a different type or something. And so I was wondering, like, what is happening here? How can we understand this, like, assertiveness in the context of nine and what came up for me was that when nines are not feeling like they belong somewhere, or are still like feeling out the environment, then that's when they're kind of like passive and looking for the for the groove to set, to fit into. That's what they're a little more putty

and but when they feel situated somewhere, you know,

let's see to put this, it's when they feel situated somewhere. They they really can, like, let loose. They can, they can really show up with their whole life force, be surprisingly powerful, surprisingly reactive. And

it's actually a function of the same kind of somatic merging project. It's not necessarily, in other words, it's not necessarily,

how to put this, it's not necessarily a sign of evolution or health, right? It's like, it's more like a sign of comfort, you know, like, this is, I'm comfortable here, you know, yeah. And so what you have is this, like this nine that's comfortable, but it's also merged with the environment in such a way that they are reactive to anything that's disturbing or disharmonious within that environment, and then summoning themselves to go quell that thing or manage that tension, right? Even though they're not so it's like they're not quite individuated. They're still part of the environment. And what I wonder is, is when you get like someone like an Obama or someone who's running for president, is like,

somehow inside the nines mind, they have

projected themselves into this kind of the body politic, like this is what I am now merged with. And I feel protective of this, this overall thing, and I feel comfortable in it. I belong. I'm allowed. And so once they get, once they get to that place that's when they can really show up with, like, whoa, okay, this Oh, now you're running for president, you know.

And so that's part of the same type structures. What I'm saying is, like a person who's kind of meekly looking for where they fit in, but also someone who, once they're settled in there, can really take up a lot of space.

Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's exactly that. It's, I would say that it's the comf. It, let's see, the comfort and familiarity with whatever environment they've been steeped into has now gotten so,

I don't know, has now just like happened so deeply that it's not necessarily that the nine feels allowed to do it. It's that, like, I am the body of politics now, and so this is it's connected to me now. And so I'm in charge,

or, like, in an environment, like, with a group of friends that I'm very comfortable with, I'm just not the same as if I'm meeting a new crowd of people, because with you guys, I'm comfortable. I already know where all of the edges are, blah, blah, blah. I know where the disharmony is, and so like it just feels like, I don't know. It's like the other it's like the other

side of the surrender. It's like an overtaking. It's like my meanness has now saturated this entire thing that you guys are all mine now

that goes back.

It, like the rulership, or whatever, like,

yeah, yeah, I guess that's the end of that. It just, it can be the other so, like a nine can surrender into environment, into an environment, but it can also, like, extend its own force field and life force around, like an entire just really widely, and so that anything that falls within that force field just becomes their domain to to be sovereign over. I think it's, it's kind of, it speaks to the merging again, right? But this is where I was just mentioning the merging things just as a word. I think there's just some negative, you know,

just negative thinking about that word, and oh, they're just going to get lost in the sauce. And, yeah, we do, yeah,

admittedly, but, um, but there's also a sense that when you're merging with a greater, whatever it is, the environment, the group around you, or something, you're fitting into, the cracks, you're fitting in, and you're creating this whole, this whole other, you know, sort of thing. And

because it is somatic, it is body, it is based in that there's a lot of pre verbal stuff there, I'm sure, but, but you're creating this, this sort of thing bigger than you, that allows you to expand into those cracks, you know, you

Yeah, I guess something like that, yes. And you have your Obamas, or your whatever's, you know, and they're there, they've just sort of fit this thing, you know, that's been built around them, and they've sort of,

I don't know,

squish their way in all the cracks have become this big, or something, the voice of the people, or something like Obama,

like an energy force field, feels like, yeah, and I think too, it's, it's like, I mean, with cases like Obama or other

nine celebrities, that it's like it's you also kind of take on

society's projection of you as well, and that also becomes comfortable. I think this is what happens in relationships with nine that are not celebrities that like just in a social environment. I noticed this with self present nines. I know this with all kinds of nine, but every nine, but like you part of the like

you're feeling into the environment, and like what I can express, and what is being received well, and what isn't, and stuff like that. And there's a way that two nines being this kind of

mergey fluid whatever, like they start to also kind of mirror or adapt what other people are projecting onto them, and kind of take that on, even if it's something that they're not, you know, Enjoying like they will, and that maybe that's something too that you process later on, that, like, wait a minute, I don't like, like, how this person is seeing me or whatever, and I don't, I don't know if that's just, like a three fix thing. Maybe it is too. But I feel like nines just kind of like in their consideration of the environment, are also sort of unconsciously considering what other people are projecting onto them, and therefore, like is this, you know, a quality that I can show and embody and whatever around this person, versus something completely different around Another person.

And I was thinking about you with regard to this, like

this. I know we have complicated feelings about this word merging, but like, the journey that you went on, like my, my sense of what happened for you is that you actually did

individuate in the sense of being a solid entity within a family system. Does that make sense?

Yeah,

anyway, so I wonder if you could talk about that like the did you still feel I don't know how to put this, like,

somatically entangled, you know, in the same way, or like, available in the same way,

even as you were solidifying boundaries, it's different. Well, okay, it is. It's like it kind of was broken into three journeys within that journey. So, like the first one was, like the crisis when I realized that, like, everybody was in my energetic field in ways that was harming me and them. Like I couldn't show up for members of my family, because I was having my own experiences about their experiences, to the point where I was like clouding my ability to like parent effectively and partner effectively,

and then the process of

Learning how to disentangle myself energetically and have some distance like that was quite a long, like many months process. And during that time, it actually felt like my energetic force field was like goo. It was almost like the old way was dissolving.

The new way had not yet emerged. And it was like, if you could kind of compare it to like a chrysalis, right? And it's like the caterpillar is is literally goo, and it's not yet become its new being. And, you know, I felt it on a very cellular level, like I was sick a lot. It was like my cells didn't even have boundaries. And, yeah, I was, like, kind of depressed, and, you know, everything felt hard.

And then, you know, I talked to Josh about this, like I just had had trust in the process, like I just knew something was happening behind the scenes. I wasn't, like, dying, you know, it was annihilation of my old operating system, but something was happening, and so when I kind of like emerged from that phase, the

like, my energetic body is different, and it doesn't actually feel Like so much work for me energetically, to have boundaries,

energetic boundaries from people. It just kind of is the way it is. So that sort of, like the process is,

you know, it feels complete to me for now, but there's just a way in which you know, like, you know my family, you will come in and they'll be having a this or that in a crisis. And

it used to be that I would kind of like lose my sense of self immediately and try to address the needs of the people around me. And now it's like I am settled within myself and I'm tethered to like, this really core part that actually like cannot

like it cannot be disconnected, and from there, I can respond to the needs of the other.

But it's not it's not in my my force field in the same way, and I can actually perceive things more clearer, because it's not getting muddied with my own energy. I can actually see people for who they are and what's happening and what they need, as opposed to, like, what I thought I thought they needed based on what was best for me, really, because it was like, inconvenient for me, that they were meeting or requiring stuff or, you know,

energetic support that. So now it's kind of like it's much more self generative. It's not,

it's not like I am hooked on to the energy centers of others to provide some sort of sustenance for me,

or like, fill the gaps of my own? Yeah.

Well, there is folks, that's the there it

is. That's the it feels like the, let's

see, there's a lot to say about that. But energetically, the force field, it feels like, you know, it used to be just cast out or or just be out there, and any, anything that entered the field caused some disturbance inside you. That force field is kind of condensed itself to the shape of your body, and so you're kind of just in here, and others are out there.

Yeah, and

what's, I think, what's coolest about the whole thing is how sustainable that is feeling for

you right now. Yeah, it is not like there's so much less work involved. I want to say like, it just like people don't feel draining to me anymore, because it's like, I don't have a leaky body.

It's, yeah, and I mean, like, in a physical way too, like, I have not been sick in like, a year and a half, not even with a cold. And I've been on, like, cruise ships and airplanes and, like, you know, those god awful children's indoor play places. And it's like, you know, I feel, I feel it on like, I feel it on an energetic level, like just a sort of like, is it protection? But it's not protection in the same way that, like, dissociation is protection is actually like, what a real boundary membrane kind of feels like, not a reflexive one.

Well, I am kind of curious, like, just dividing the room, you know, Anne and Charles versus Alexandra and Kristen, and kind of comparing your inner

experiences to each other. And I'm wondering, like, if you guys have questions for each other, or like, things that are confusing,

like about, like, just, how could this person be doing nine miss in this way, or something like that,

because, and I guess I frame it that way, because when I met Lewis and was like, Oh, this is a three and four, this is what, actually, you know, I was like, I didn't, I didn't know it was possible to be this level of, I don't know, like particular and kind of like the four disdain thing that he.

Of wear so easily,

and how that supports his threeness. So, yeah, rejection wing versus a frustration wing the kind of energetic, eight walled, boundaried, kind of double numb,

like suppressing things out of

let's see, like Charles in your thing, you talked about, like, just the numb state itself, not even noticing butterflies in your stomach and shutting off.

Versus the nine when one thing, which is like, I think, retains a little bit more awareness of its of what's annoying it even though it's suppressed or muted, but there's a little bit more of like a roiling kind of like thing still going on, even in the dissociated states of nine wing one

and anyway. So just kind of as a prompt, curious where you guys go with that nine one versus nine wing eight.

Who wants to call, I think for me,

yeah, well, I got a problem now

I think, well, well, that's the thing nine wing one to me, it's

like when I'm irritated by something my and this might be a six fix kind of thing too, but like, I It's that need to correct. It needs, I need to,

I use, it's almost like my nine uses my one wing to sort of like, get, get me back to some kind of harmony, some kind of regulated space, some kind of connective space with others, because I'm social, whatever. Like, when I'm irritated, I kind of have to vocalize those irritations, um, or I need to act like, actually go out and correct, if it's a self preservation thing, whatever, like, there's some kind of, like, drive that I have to actually go and and interact with the environment. And so I've noticed with nine wing eight, it's like the total opposite, where it's like, I don't even want my environment to know that there's something wrong, like, and it almost a complete cut off. And so I guess, like, I don't know if I really have a question other than, like, maybe, how, how do you see that eight wing supporting whatever the nine is like for me, a nine when it's in object attachment mode. It's like, I need to secure the attachment by using my one wing and fixing something right. But like, how does an eight wing feel? Like it's, it's

supporting or whatever that that nine attachment thing or doesn't. Is it the point? Is it the point that, like, I don't have the object anymore, I cut off of it. I don't, yeah, I cut it off. Or, like, whatever. I don't

know, that's a question. I guess I would just say I liked what Alexandra said once about, like, two swordsmen on each side of the nine right, that you can draw on or pull from when you need to, or they just show up unexpectedly when you don't want them to.

But

yeah, for me, it's less of a desire to like it sound

like you were kind of feeling that one wing for a minute there when you said, a desire to sort of perfect and fix the situation

where 98 I think, has some overlap with dismissive, avoidant, if you're familiar with, you know, the attachment styles and that it's it's more

his strategy, you know, when things aren't going right, is typically

to bunker down, You know, be unmovable,

or, you know, be like unresponsive in that unmovableness, in a sense, or to

go elsewhere, like in that dismissive avoidance sort of way, you know, and it's still a protective mechanism. It's still, you know, still a nine it's still, you know, having all those things, like I said, the, you know, practicing facial expressions and that sort of thing here. It's a way to protect the nine, just just like that. But it's not so much about this high minded sense of fixing it, necessarily. And you know, this is just talking about the core of the nine when you obviously nine weeks can be fixers and can be solvers. You know, that's what I'm saying. But I think it's just less, I mean, but it's simply just less based on the superhero need to perfect it, and just based on again, back to that sort of animalistic territorial, protective, territorial sense. You know? Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That's sometimes what I can observe in nine wing eights, that I'm like, how do you guys do that, where I will feel some kind of like violation to my peace or whatever. And rather than just, like, accepting that, that what I the way that I see nine wing eight is it will the irritant will come in, and nine wing eight will be like, Okay, there's this irritant. I can either push back on it, or it's just like, that's just not a place I go. And I accept that it I accept its presence. I respect its presence. And.

Now I'm just not going to deal with it anymore, whereas, like, as a nine wing one, the irritant comes in, and not only do I need to freak out about it in a in a righteous you know, it's still nine, so it's like quiet, but not only do I have to, like, react against it with all of this frustration, but also it's like, I need it to know that it's wrong.

If so, the facial expression, if I was to pick up on the facial expression, I would, you know, clock it. And then if it really became a growing

if it became like a growing irritant, for me, it would not be that I accept that the other person, just like, has shitty facial expressions. Sometimes it would be like, hey, that's fucking rude. Stop. What are you doing? That's that can't happen if we're going to be harmonized, you know? So there's no question in that, really. But like, I just, I guess the question, yeah, I guess the question is, like, Don't you guys get frustrated? Don't

happens once a year, whether I like it

or not.

Well, I guess it's like, like for me again, because, I mean, we're all social type, so we can relate. Like, how I like get

i Well, no, I guess that does answer my question. Because your your way of harmonious attachment, I guess is just different, I don't know. Because, like, if this is someone that, like, you care about and you kind of use that mechanism. Like, does that mean the person you care about, like has to come to you and like, solve it, or you just is this self protective in the way that, like, I don't even want to work this out with you? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I like irritation to me, gives me the information that something needs to be worked out, or something needs to be vocalized. Like, do you still have that? Like, oh, something needs to be worked out, or is it just kind of

black and white? Like, where, where are you touching? Basically, what conflict answer that she's more articulate than I am, but I would just say that 98 can also hold space really well for the people for long periods of time, if you're talking about the harmonious aspect of interrelating.

So you often attract people too, and it's not necessarily

something you want to do, but you often attract people who are a little more What do you say? Little more

frustrated, on edge, reactive, because they sense that to them,

you know. But the same time you are a nine, you are internalizing a lot of it, and it build up. So if you're, if you're more on the immature end, or unhealthy and with a lot of stress in your life, you can have those blow ups that everybody knows nine eight are famous for. But yeah,

so there's like, there's a big part of me when an irritant in a human form comes into my realm, that it's just kind of like, Is this my problem, or is this not my problem? And

a lot of the time it's not my problem. And so when it's not my problem, it's not mine to fix and to do so would be like an unnecessary burden on my life force. So there's like a self I know there's like, like a self preservation quality of like,

No, I'm not going to engage with that. Like, an example I have is like, so growing up, I could play piano, and growing up, had a younger family member that was like a toddler when I was school age, and I would practice every day after school, and he would just like, be he would just like, bang on the lower end of the piano because, you know, it looked fun. And I would just remain, like, super duper calm, and all I would do is just, like, completely, like, like, hardcore focus on what I was doing. It was like, it actually strengthened my piano playing, being able to, like, put up that wall. Because it was just like, it was like a pushing into self by pushing out against that thing.

And yeah, and good training for having a family, obviously. But yeah, there's a way that, like, Man, I can, I can block things out, like nobody's business, yeah, if I decide I want to, yeah, it's reminding me of David's overlaps thing like the eight overlaps with self, Pres social, which is just like the tangible reality of something. So it just feels like the nine wing eight strategy is like this just is an object, and it just it already exists. And so it's like, Is this, like, what you said, Is this my problem, or is this not my problem? That thought doesn't even cross my mind. The one wing overlaps with the social self res. And so it's this thing of, just like, I just the etiquette is wrong and it needs to wait.

Rack did,

but yeah, like I said, just, it's just such a simple solution that that idea of just like, Yeah, this is annoying, but it's not, it has nothing to do with me, and it's not my problem, and it's not my responsibility, doesn't cross my mind. So that's annoying for me, but I'll be, yeah, taking that in. Yeah, I think it is. It's annoying to me in some ways, because, like, there, and it's also like, I totally am jealous of it, because I need to, I have ways that I have to, like, consciously practice that. But I think, like, you know, I've had relationships with nine wing eights or nine ring eight fixers. And it's like, in in the social context, it can be annoying, because they will do the whole, Oh, this isn't my problem when it kind of like, is, you know,

but no, but it is your problem, because we're two people here, you know, like, that kind of like, I think I've like, yeah. Like, had so many different friendships or relationships with nine wing eight fixers where

the shutdown is so fast, and my name nine wing one is like, Oh no, we're not done. But they get to decide they're done. I'm like, Oh no. Like, just like, totally can be really incompatible at times. And then I kind of have to, like, there's, I feel like there's more like, of that sort of

power in nine wing eight to, like, Charles, you use the word it's kind of like strategic, or something like, I don't realize, like, how much power, even in nine week fixers, that it's just like to really strategize. Like, nope, not talking. And then I have to sit with myself,

be completely enquires the frustration, yeah, and I'm like, I mean, it's taught me a lot to like, then, oh, this, okay, now, does do I want this as my problem or not, like, you know, like that and, and

sort of make the anger or the boundary violation or whatever, a bit more conscious, because I actually have to Sit with it, whereas, you know, not having self pres first as well. I My immediate response is like, okay, regulate myself through social, you know, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, it's, it's interesting in that sense, that there is a bit more of a groundedness, that even when nine wing eights or nine wing eight fixers to have put that wall up to me, it's like

I have learned the repercussions or consequences when I try to tear that wall down and do the not like the one wing drilling, and it's just like, not worth it. And so I just am like, okay, I guess I'll be a nine week.

That's our plan.

Like, fine, I'll come to the dark

side. I'll just sit here and think about what I've done.

Different flavors of peacekeeping are so interesting there. There's like, the, what is the one reformer. That's the one thing, right? Yeah, yeah. There's the active like, reforming quality. And I do think nine wing eight is just better at just like, respecting the boundaries that are there, whereas nine wing one will see something that's, you know, disharmonized or whatever. And like, we like, there is an attaching into that in order to reform it, to get it harmonized again. Whereas, yeah, but back to, like, the territorial thing of of eight, the nine wing eight will, will see the disharmony, find the proper boundaries, and then just respect those, you know, draw new lines within the territory, it seems. But here's the thing, like,

yeah, I was just gonna say it's the proper boundaries for the nine wing eight, you know, in some sense too, though. So one thing I would not to just bag on 91 this whole time. I would say that the reformer energy that 91 has is that it is more sensitive and willing to interact with the environment in that way, versus just completely walling it off in the moment because it's too much. It

brings a lot of creativity and a lot of, you know, things that are things that are important to society.

So yeah, and I think that's like, you know, for both, they're both. It's all within, like, that realm of kind of how you're relating to the attachment object. And there it's very, they're both very self protective modes. Even though nine one doesn't look as self protective. It is trying to it's drilling only because it feels dysregulated, you know. And so it's like, like, if I just drill enough and get the things that I want to regulate me, you know, then, then I'll feel better, or whatever. And so both are kind of just mechanisms to sort of mask, like anger and actual boundaries, you know? And I think that's why nines, like all across the board can can suffer from a lot of like anger, like repressed anger, and, you know, like, yeah, and depression, numbness, yeah, stuff like that. Because it's like both mechanisms the age.

Way or the one way, just are, kind of like anger eating at itself and and like the destructive fire that whether it's conscious or not, and

like the actual, like proper use of anger and setting boundaries, kind of like what Anna was saying that she's developed with her family, like, I've, I can relate a little bit to what you're saying, Anna, about that process.

But it's always like, if, if I maybe I got it really solid, and I feel good about it in one setting, and then switch me to another setting, and it's like, I have to relearn it all over again, like, there's so it's like, situational sometimes for me, I don't, I don't think I have a I'd like to say one thing about intent, right? So, right action with the nine, right? So you mentioned the reformer for 91 right? And then we have the referee. I think this is be some Hudson we're referring to, right?

Yeah, came up with these,

the referee for 98 right? They're both okay. So they're both sensitive to the environment, and they're both dealing with it in their way. The naming one is reforming. Like, no, we as a team need to do this. Or, you know, it's like this, more like, it's overlaps with social self press, right? Like, and the nine, wing eight as the referee. It's like, No, we're all individual things here, right? Animals here, and I'm going to regulate this. What's going on here with all these animals to make this game work, where nobody has an advantage and everybody's just like doing, you know? So it's it's there, it's very nine in both ways. But what Anna was talking about, where she's been living into this way of being with herself, autonomous and and using that energy, that not only energy to less referee

and more be okay with the pieces being themselves, you know, is is something to look at. She's deciding is what I'm getting at. She's deciding to take right action for those moments that are important to her specifically, versus just that smoothing of the team and refereeing everybody and wearing yourself out. Yeah, chasing, chasing them being the buffer.

Yeah, I do think that, like, nine main one is, like, probably more collaborative, you know, because there's, there's that access to kind of like, the story of like, what is and what could be. And so there's a way that they can, sort of like, get others on board and motivate them, because there's a clear line there. Whereas, like, nine, Min eight is kind of more with, like, just what is

less visionary, right? It's yeah, yeah. The frustration element brings a kind of Yeah, like a

Yeah, refining what is into what it could be or should be. Yeah. I

wanted to share one story. I had

a nine wing eight friend. Let's we'll see if we keep this in or not. But I have a nine wing eight friend who, you know, back in my piano playing days, I used to work at bars, and there was a lot of drinking. And my one nine wing eight friend, after every shift he we would drink. And

I used to like when I was thinking about what type he was, and I realized he was a nine, we eight. The phrase pressure to chill came to mind, because it's kind of like, it's like, it's not fussy.

No, I think you hit it for Charles,

it's not fussy in the same way of, like, complaining about, like, like, Hey, come on. Why don't you? You know, come on. You know that it's not like that one kind of thing. It's more just like, sit down, shut up. Take the shot with me. You know, like

with the eight comes in and body checks, you just get in line, you know, like we're drinking now, we're gonna hang out, you know. And there's, and if you don't, there's a kind of like, okay, but I'm gonna do me or and also, like, you're not allowed in my energy field anymore, if that's if you're choosing not to do that, or whatever, you know, there's something a little more concrete and like boundary drawn and permanent

marker there, yeah,

yeah, that's good pressure to chill, yeah. I think they'll, I guess. I guess the last thing just on the difference between nine wing one and nine wing eight two is, I think they embody different classic

nine traits. Like, I think the unbothered thing belongs to nine wing eight more. I think the sensitivity belongs more to nine wing one, just because it sensitivity has the like, you know, a kind of needlepoint, reactive, not reactive, but, like, frustration, kind of edge there,

whereas nine wing eight, yeah, has that, like, extra boundary membrane in order to

protect itself from, yeah, from irritants.

Yeah, I was gonna say one other thing too, like one is as a frustration type, still porous, you know, and it's still, it's still being affected, and it's still wins.

Thing against any contaminant, you know, and that can, and actually is dependent upon that wince to keep the personality in motion. So it's like, something goes and then I have to, and then I want to fix it or figure it out, or try to understand it. And so, I mean, even in this conversation, you know, just the the energy of like, you know, figuring it out from like, Alexander Kristen is like, kind of different from the it's almost like there's something already, I don't know, already processed and presented, you know, some with, with nine, wing eight, you know, I'm saying,

and even just again, like

I was thinking too, like

the I was thinking originally, that it was, there was a difference between Anna, you being head last, and then these other three, being head seconds, and like, being a little more like Poppy.

But there is this really strong contrast between, like, the kind of

laid back, self contained, I

don't know, like, there's a some kind of, like, fortification, you know, energy that I'm getting from like Anna and Charles and this, how would I describe it? Unhinged quality?

Yeah,

we're ready to write a manifesto. Basically, it's like we see your process more

that's true. Like the one, one is more, sorry, one is more. I feel like interactive with the world in that way. One itself. And so the nine with the one wing is that sort of more, like thinking, I just said, we can see your process a little bit more. That's, that's kind of the vibe of it, right? Like

the one you know tattoo, aside from just like the prickly frustration piece, but just the actual manifestation of that piece feels, feels more process oriented, it does more externalized or something.

Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder if, because I've heard a few times people say that 911, feels more anxious, and that's always both confused and annoyed me, because I'm like, I don't think that that's true. I think what they're seeing is the, yeah, the processing that maybe even comes from the overlap with social self pres, which is just more verbal,

but also just the fact that it is a bit more of a live wire. It's a bit more of, you know, it's got the frustration edge that just, like, needs to be turning against something.

So that's kind of interesting.

Yeah, it's more,

I don't know, just fun. It's ironic. There's an irony, because, like, while eight is a reactive type, I often feel like nine when one is more reactive. I don't know, but I think it's just from the confusion. Between like, frustration versus like, the boundaryness of of eight and I and I think it's also the rejection of eight, maybe is a better way to say it well, and it's the term of reactivity. Because like, again, like, I keep mentioning the attachment object, it's like, what is the like? What mechanism are you using with the object? So, like, a one's frustration, you know, is going to be like, it's still like grasping and like choking the object, essentially, which is that kind of like, like frustrated sort of energy, whereas, like an eight, yeah, being rejection, still, but reactive, like, the object I've noticed in nine week eight starts to become this vague thing I'm reacting to, like, I'm, it's strategic, like, and this is all unconscious on both ends, but like, it's, like, here's the object, and I'm gonna make it into this thing that I'm kind of reacting to. It's, it's somehow still causing me to push and reject and whatever, and it becomes an enemy, or it becomes an some, not my problem, or, like, something like that, like it's still reacting to the object to go into, like, rejection mode. You know what I mean? When we other it? Yes, you other it, yeah, exactly, yeah. That's good, cool, because in the not doing that, I mean for me, would kind of feel like a loss of control or a loss of my own personal power, because I would be destabilized then and my goals, yeah, right. And contrasting with frustration like that needs to control in some way, you know, like it. It needs to use the object as a way to feel control.

Well, this has been really good.

Thank you guys. It's 530 so maybe we come to a close.

Any any final words here you guys want to say, or any final thoughts,

this is fine. How to just respect the that's my not my problem. I'm gonna say that's not my problem, trust me. I mean, we get it wrong. Sometimes

it's not a foolproof

Sure, but the night, the one week thing of just like.

Know that the nose needs to be in the shit of wrongness. It's just like such a way well, and that's why it never works. I think we can the nines can all harmonize and learn from each other's wings.

Yeah. Discernment comes in is just like, Okay, what boundaries being violated by what, by who and what tactic is like more appropriate to actually honor my anger, my identity or my sense of self or whatever, and that's just hard. So I think that's why it's really helpful to know the other ways types do things, because it's like there's still an intelligence to each type, like, you know, isolate it and talk about it symbolically or archetypally, and there's such an intelligence to eight and one, and that's why they're they're both needed to kind of get the full spectrum of the body and its language, you know. Yeah, beautiful.

Well, on that note, thank you guys. I was really excited to have this conversation. You guys are all so smart and so in perspective and just articulate and stuff so and this conversation really didn't disappoint. So thank you guys for showing up for this,

making the space for us, yeah, for giving us space.

Thanks for letting us talk about

nines. We love it. Hosting this for you when we all get our Hogwarts letters.

Thanks.

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