Podcast: TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective

Season: [Season Number]

Episode: "DEI in the Spotlight: Beyond the Black Square"

Author: Tony Franklin (Tony Tidbit) and Les Frye

Link to Episode: [Episode Link]

Join "TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective" as we delve into the effectiveness of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives in today's corporate world. This episode scrutinizes the real-world impact and sustainability of DEI programs post-2020.

Featured Guest: Leslie Drish, VP, Director, Diversity, Equity & Inclusion, Federal Home Loan Bank of Chicago, brings her invaluable expertise to the discussion.

Why This Episode Matters:

• Historical Insights: A look at the origins and evolution of DEI in corporate America.
• Intersectionality in DEI: The crucial role intersectionality plays in successful DEI strategies.
• Challenges vs. Success: An honest examination of the obstacles and achievements in implementing DEI.
• Corporate Culture Impact: Understanding how DEI shapes and influences corporate strategies and environments.

Key Insights: A must-listen for those seeking a deeper understanding of DEI's real impact in the corporate world and strategies for fostering true inclusivity.

Show Notes

[00:00:00] Introduction to the episode's theme - Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in corporate America post-2020.

[00:02:00] Analysis of the historical evolution of DEI in the corporate sector.

[00:10:00] Discussion on intersectionality's role in DEI strategies.

[00:18:00] Exploring effective DEI initiatives and the challenges faced.

[00:26:00] Insights from industry experts: Les Frye and Himalaya Rao-Potlapally.

[00:34:00] Interactive Q&A session addressing listener queries on DEI practices.

[00:42:00] Summary of key points and actionable takeaways for listeners.

[00:50:00] Closing remarks and preview of the next episode.

Listen & Subscribe:

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Join our transformative journey in reshaping discussions about race and diversity in Corporate America. Your voice is essential! 🌟

Podcast: TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective

Season (Not in a season) Episode 110

Episode Title: ep 110. Beyond the Black Square: A Deep Dive into Corporate DEI with Tony Tidbit

Author: TonyTidbit™

Link to Episode https://podcast.ablackexec.com/episode/empowering-change-beyond-the-black-square-a-deep-dive-into-corporate-dei-with-tony-tidbit

a black executive perspective look man 

they didn't get a chance to play chess

they had to play Checker Let's talk about it 

t openly and honestly there was a lot of smart

kids there they black executive perspective 

now my story is not unique there's thousands

of Professionals of color who have experiences 

like mine a black executive perspective whether

you're aware of it or not it's a topic that 

is often avoided we'll discuss race and how

it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk 

about this topic cuz we were afraid a black

executive perspective today diversity equity 

and inclusion de and programs are widespread

in Corporate America but there's a problem 

they're often ineffective at creating better

environments for employees these programs allow 

companies to check the dni box but they fail at

their most basic objective of changing changing 

people's mindsets to be more inclusive why is it

so hard to implement effective Dei programs 

more importantly what needs to change to

create more inclusive workplaces in today's 

episode the black square is De working we

will discuss these areas as well as the history 

the goal challenges the push back and possible

solutions welcome to a black executive perspective 

podcast the space where we discuss all matters

related to race especially race in Corporate 

America I'm your host Tony tidbit and I've

been in Corporate America for about 35 years so 

I'm ready to sit down break down these barriers

and address the topic of race in the workplace in 

this episode we will dive deep into the concept

of Dei and the evolving Dei departments within 

black Square on their social media feeds 

to show their support for the injustices

the black community faced and made pledges to be 

more inclusive although Dei departments exist are

companies truly implementing change has changed 

drish vice president director of diversity Equity 

inclusion at Federal Home Loan Bank of Chicago

will help us examine the history of Dei why it's 

needed and is it still working so let me give you

tell you a little bit about lesie as VP director 

of diversity equity and inclusion for federal

Home Loan Bank of Chicago lesie implements and 

monitors programs that Advance diversity inclusion

journey within the bank she is responsible 

for strategically supporting leadership on

Dei focusing on Innovative engaging and Cutting 

Edge initiatives that D drive Dei deeper into the

bank's organizational culture lesie has over 25 

years experience developing Innovative diversity

volunteer and educational programs with proven 

ability to drive performance program Improvement

quality initiatives and quantifiable results 

she has been recognized for community outreach

and development of programs that engage support 

lesie was named as a Chicago Defender woman 

of Excellence she is currently serves as a

board of gads Hill Center and is a mentor for the 

National Association of African-Americans in Human

Resources prior to joining fhlbc lesie was the 

inclusion and diversity manager for Tyson Foods

she was manager of diversity inclusion at the 

YMCA of America and the director of education at

Chicago Urban League in addition she was educator 

at Morgan Park High School in Chicago Illinois I

love that lesie earned her master's educational 

leadership from National Lewis University a master

of public educa administration from University 

of Illinois at Chicago and a Bachelor of Arts in

education from the Paul University lesie Welcome 

to a black executive perspective podcast thank you

so much Tony I appreciate it I mean you're very 

accomplished so you know we're blessed to have

you and especially when it comes to this topic 

because obviously this is a you know especially

over the last three years this has been a huge 

thing there's a lot of things going on positively

negatively so we definitely W to you know uh get 

your expert opinion what's going on I have some

questions for you our audience is obviously they 

all work in Corporate America their companies are

having Dei initiatives so it'll be good to hear 

from you you know how everything is going and your

thoughts in terms of taking it to the next level 

and then what Solutions you see in terms of making

Dei very uh uh efficient and more importantly here 

to stay but before we go to that we love to hear a

little bit of your background tell us a little bit 

about you well um so I am born and raised Chicago

Illinois and so you mentioned that I taught high 

school at Morgan Park High School and I'll be

honest I graduated from that school four years 

prior and I walked right back in as a teacher so

I love it so I I I truly believe that in community 

I believe in um serving and working with children

and providing opportunities for them I uh did 

that for a number of years but then I went to

go work for the Urban League and it's really 

interesting because I started at as a volunteer

for the Chicago Urban League and I became a 

part of their young professionals auxiliary

and so that ke helped me hone my leadership skills 

and it really got me connected into what Corporate

America was doing in Chicago specifically because 

I was able to have a much better understanding of

um the black experience in Corporate America what 

Young professionals were experiencing in Corporate

America and so I went after I volunteered I went 

to go work for the Urban League for several years

years as their director of education so my job 

was primarily to expose young people to Corporate

America and help them understand the pathway to 

get from where they are or where they were into

the sea suite and so we partnered with several um 

companies in the Chicago land area I was able to

work with a number of young people and they're now 

working at Luke Capital they're doing all kinds

of great things um they were working for John 

Rogers here in Chicago so that's been great and

from there I went over to the Y and um I really 

that's when I kind of shifted away from just the

black experience but more into diversity equity 

and inclusion so in that role I traveled from

Maine to Hawaii and I helped wise all across the 

country um think about their Dei strategies and

what they could do to incorporate um diversity 

equity and inclusion into their YMCAs so I made

that transition into Corporate America and so 

now I work for a bank but if you had told my

high school self that I would be working at a bank 

I would have looked at you like you had five heads

because I thought I was going to be a teacher 

for life so well listen number one uh I love

that background I love you know how you know your 

your journey has taking you into different things

different areas and then more importantly um how 

you have helped so many people so I hear you when

you said hey you thought you would just still be 

you know a Chicago teacher but more importantly

I'm glad you're not because you've really touched 

a lot of lives in terms of what you've been able

to do and then I I I I and we'll talk we'll dive 

into it a little bit in terms of when we when we

uh get into the uh discussion but you know for you 

to to work at an organization and then be able to

get a a view of the African-American experience 

and want to be able to to to understand and help

it that is awesome and that's one of the things 

that we definitely want to dive into today to get

more people to to uh you know uh break through the 

Clutter I should say and and be able to see some

of the things that people of color go through 

but before we go to that you seem like a very

talented individual okay you you like multiple 

Talent so I'm gonna this is one of this is our

Icebreaker session okay so I'm gonna ask you this 

question all right what superpower you wish you

had I would suppose the superpower I would want 

to have is to be able to read people's minds um

working in the Dei space A lot of times people 

don't necessarily feel comfortable sharing their

true opinions because they how they are how they 

think they might be perceived and so right but

really until you can understand what people are 

thinking and why they're thinking that and what

experiences that they've had um you really can't 

move the need and so being able to read people's

minds is definitely something I would I would 

cherish I would you listen so I got to share this

with you somebody asked me that question years ago 

I said the exact same thing I would love because

I'm a deep thinker and I would love to and I 

like to you know relate to people and and be

very empathetic and see their points of view and 

stuff and so I said I would love to read people's

mind then I thought about it it's like could 

I handle what they think what they're thinking

about and I don't think I could so you know you 

probably can but I don't think I could but thanks

for sharing that with you so um who are your 

favorite people that you follow in business if

you have any so I really enjoy following David 

Casey um to be the um Chief diversity officer

for CVS health now he's doing some other things 

but he had I had the opportunity to meet him um

a few years ago and how he was talking about Dei 

and especially with and as I'm sure we'll talk

about later with social media and how CBS Health 

was really experiencing understanding communities

through um social media and understanding 

challenges in different communities um was

really a thoughtful perspective so he's definitely 

someone that I watch all the time awesome you know

what I'm going to look him up because he sounds 

somebody you know um very intriguing and seems

like he's got his foot on the pulse of what's 

going on from a Dei standpoint and then the

last question who had the most influence in your 

life I would say my father um honestly my father

um is black well was black um but he grew up 

both passed when he was very young and so um he 

raised himself from the time he was 12 years old

in Chicago and he really just exemplified what a 

true um generous soul is and what and he always

taught me um it's very important to teach people 

who don't know any better so he went through a lot

of experiences in his life and because of the way 

I look um people have said strange things to me um

not knowing that I'm um black and and so um I have 

always taken that advice that he gave me to teach

people who don't know any better and help them 

um on their Journey so that's that's something

that kind of followed me into my career and that's 

probably why I'm in Dei right now that is awesome

that is awesome thank you for sharing that is 

great and yeah I'm pretty sure he's very proud

of you as well yeah so you ready to talk about it 

I am I'm always ready to talk about Dei all right

let's talk about it let's talk about it always 

what we try to do here on a black executive pers

perspective podcast obviously we talk about a lot 

of topics but we W to you know first start off to

make it real simple so my first question is give 

us some historical background when did Dei start

you know when did it start taking off you know 

because a lot of times people think to be fair

Dei started in 2020 okay after George Floyd right 

because that's when most people heard about Dei

but give us a little background sure so I would 

say you know with the Civil Rights Movement um

Dei really started then because that's when a lot 

of legislation was passed that really impacted

people in the workplace so we had the Equal Pay 

Act of 1964 you have the um Employment Act of 

1967 where people um who were over 40 couldn't

get discriminated against in the workplace so 

it wasn't even then even though it's a part of

the Civil Rights Movement it still was looking at 

women it was still talking and taking into account

all of those other dimensions of diversity that 

aren't really um thought about so from there you

know that's kind of when or a company started 

saying okay well we need to start doing some

things to to put some practices into place to make 

sure that we are obeying the law essentially but

then in the 80s you had kind of a shift and then 

there were more women coming into the workplace

you also had a lot more um people of color coming 

into the workplace so in the 80s that's when a

lot of those employee resource groups started 

to take place and employee resource groups are

just generally groups of individuals that share 

a common dimension of diversity where they talk

about their experience in the workplace they work 

with their companies to help them think through

how they could recruit better and how they could 

make things more um uh equal for people in their

workplace so those that launched in the 19 um 80s 

say hey wait a second um there's a huge Market out 

there for different um people and we can't just

Market to white people we have to be a lot more 

cognizant of you know what we're selling who we're

selling to why we're selling these products how 

they're going to benefit these other communities

and so in the 90s that was that shift I would 

say into really thinking about Multicultural

um Market development and then you know we have 

have the Family Medical Leave Act happening um 

and that allows people to now take unpaid leave

for child care but that happened in the 90s so 

there are all these kind of legislative things

that are happening you know you have uh in 2020 

um discrimination against lgbtq individuals is

introduced so it's been these are topics that 

have been ongoing since right the early 60s so

if I'm hearing you correctly 63 64 civil rights 

want to expand to more diverse people increase 

the talent pool um so I I totally get that and

then obviously you know other laws disa for people 

that are uh you know disabled we want to make sure

that we include them and then you know LTB lgbtq 

we want to you know make sure that you know we're

including everybody under the tree and making sure 

they all have an equal opportunity is that correct

correct okay so I'm gonna I'm going to throw a 

couple of things at you and I want to get your

take on this okay so this is an an article from 

the headline says it could take a hundred years 

for black employees to catch up in Corporate

America this study finds and the study was by 

a corporate counseling firm called McKenzie all

right and what it said is is that and this was 

2021 this is after George Floyd black Americans

represent s % of managers compared to 66% for 

white people okay 15% for asian-americans and 8%

for Hispanics all right the percentage of black 

Americans in senior roles senior vice president

you vice president senior vice president is like 

3.2% and then when you get up to CEO it's .8% yeah

now one of the things I found interesting is when 

I looked at this they even broke down some of the

different you know from the different groups 

right women uh the percentage of women who are

CE CEOs and CFOs is the highest ever okay at in 

2021 it was 6.9% of companies were led by female

CEOs and 15.1 had Fe female CFOs right it did 

say the number of black CFOs nearly doubl from

2020 to 2021 which I don't know I couldn't find 

that number but black CEO stayed stagnant right

six 682 companies in the study uh people of color 

had uh 73 73% was 73 CFO positions which was an

all-time high at 11% so it seems like okay some 

things are working here's where I wanted to get

to latinx and Hispanic people represent the 

largest racial and ethnic minority group in

United States comprising of 18% of the total 

population yet found only 20% 20 Latin and

Hispanic people served as chief executive officers 

the year before while black people make up 133% of 

however asian-americans who comprise of almost 6% 

of the US population had the most representation

at the CEO level where they were 40 during 2021 

not telling you anything that you you you're not 

aware of right but based on that you know and

just going backing up a little bit Dei it didn't 

start fully in this whole uh premise the way it

is now in 1963 1964 but it's been around has been 

evolving okay correct So based on these numbers do

you I mean is it you and again I don't know what 

numbers were uh and probably was was probably uh

Neil back in the early 60s in terms of people of 

color in in Corporate America at high levels but

just hearing those stats what's your thoughts 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on that well I

mean you're not you're not saying anything um that 

most people don't know so I'm not um but what but

what I will say is um you know you're right I mean 

the challenge for people of color in um Corporate

America is is great and I would say there's some 

really interesting research that came out I want

to say in 2020 2021 from um porn fairy and it 

really talks about black and brown people of

color in um Corporate America and why they were so 

behind and so what they found is that um people of

color have to prove themselves more than other 

groups do in Corporate America absolutely so

what happens is a lot of times people of color 

especially black people they have to take a lot

more risk on than other um people in their um 

companies do in order to prove that they have

the capability of earning those titles so what we 

what that research found is that fewer than 10% %

of black p&l leaders I mean 10% of p&l leaders 

are black because a lot of times they're not

taking those profit and loss um jobs they have 

more jobs that are in like um it or they're in

human resources or those types of things and 

really when you want someone that's going to

be a CEO you want them in that p&l uh place 

the other thing is um when black leaders take

on those roles they're a lot of times being put in 

situations where they're not NE necessarily giving

the given the same support or resources in order 

to be um successful and so the other thing is they

don't have that Network that's built in for them 

necessarily that other their white counterparts

do and so that's what makes it so much more 

challenging and then we can talk a lot about like

sponsorship you know who knows your name how they 

know that you work you can talk a lot about bias

you can say you know I want someone that went to 

the same school I did that had the same manager I

did so there are a number of factors besides just 

doing these Dei programs that impact how and where

um black leaders get into those seite positions 

so number one thank you actually you kind of I

love you because you you know those were some 

of the questions I was going to get to and you

got right to it so I love it right I love it so 

let me ask you this so if that's the case uh and

and and and and correct me if I'm wrong um I know 

based on what you just got finished telling us Dei

you know officially started in the early 6s and 

evolved but it kind of took off after the George

Floyd thing yeah where you saw like I what like in 

my monologue where I said a lot of companies said

hey we're going to you know restructure stuff 

we're going to make sure that our company is

inclusive we saw companies take out ads you know 

on television uh you know you have companies you

know have signs in their Windows we're inclusive 

we're this we're that we're this and that right

now over the last year or so we've seen a lot 

of companies let their dni officer um go we've

seen a lot of companies cut back on Dei right the 

numbers that I read earlier and then the the the

the stats that you just got finished articulating 

in terms of the you know the issues why so if

that's the ca why are these companies not really 

100% behind making a change because it seems like

they're saying what people want they think 

people want to hear but when the numbers come

out we don't we see if we see any progress It's 

marginal and a lot of times we see a step a step

back I have to do we have enough time for you 

to answer that because you're now talking about

my job so yeah um so no I mean I will say I 

a reckoning there there are certain things that I 

have learned just in my experience about whether

or not companies are truly invested in Dei so um 

and so yeah people can take out some ads they can

say hey we're going to do this we're you know they 

can hold hands and sing Kumbaya and you know say

oh this is terrible you know I mean and and and 

that's that's fine because that's what's expected

of them in the moment but that doesn't necessarily 

mean that that is what is taking priority for them

in those organizations so really when you're 

looking at and this is what I counsel you know

I have a lot of people that reach out and they 

say hey Leslie I'm interested in getting into

the Dei space and I'm like okay you have to be 

very thoughtful about where you go um if you want

to be in the Dei space And so there's certain 

things that you have to look for when you are

um seeing if a company is really committed to 

Dei one you want to see if the leadership has

the wherewithal to talk about where they are 

publicly and they are transparent with their

information and with their data because if they're 

not telling you what their company looks like and

who's in their company and what they're trying to 

do and that's not coming from the CEO then they'll

let you know that they're not that invested two a 

lot of organizations kind of embed Dei into their

HR department and so you have to look at where the 

Dei person falls so you want to find out like who

the Dei person is reporting to are they reporting 

directly to the CEO are they reporting to the chro

are they reporting to someone who reports to the 

chro so those are all things that are very telling

about how committed a company is to Dei um in 

my organization one of the reasons I joined was

because I had a conversation with my CEO at the 

time and he was very clear about where he stood

with Dei and he gave me some specific examples 

the other thing that really intrigued me about

my particular bank is that we have a separate 

office of diversity equity and inclusion and

my I report into the chief diversity officer who 

reports into the CDO but my entire job is not HR

it's a separate from HR but then I also get 

involved in things like we do a lot of work

with our members we're a cooperative bank so we do 

things for members so I do a lot of Education of

our members but we also do a lot of work around 

Supplier Diversity so if a company is truly

committed to Dei it's not just an HR involvement 

but it's across the company and then lastly you

want to look at what resources um those companies 

are putting into Dei are they putting in money to

you know put those ads out or are they putting in 

money to um put people into leadership development

programs are they supporting pipeline programs 

are they supporting training programs for their

employees and so you want to take a broad look 

at what is that com what's important for that

company and I will say a lot of companies they 

don't you know it's it's smoking mirrors you

know right so when I saw you know during 2020 you 

know all of a sudden everybody was was jumping on

this bandwagon but you really have to go a 

lot deeper into companies to see where they

are around Dei got it got it this you know number 

one thank you for that you know one of the things

I struggle with you know and and maybe I drank 

was gonna see a reckoning um and everybody was 

saying the same thing but I want to back up to

what you said a minute ago about a company being 

100% committed because what I've seen at a lot of

company they're not they yes they'll hire they'll 

hire a chief diversity officer but not everybody

within the leadership uh uh uh uh Suite is on 

the same page corre right and when you don't

have everybody on the same page then eventually 

it falls by the wayside and then you know the

Dei person or that group is is frustrated yeah 

because they're trying to make change that's why

they're there but they can't get the Buy in all 

right now I want to Pivot to this most company

not most all companies care about one thing 

Revenue okay they care about the bottom line

and I've seen you know stuff and we're g to talk 

about it I've seen stuff that says hey having a

more diverse organization having people who brings 

different perspectives different thoughts can help

Drive business outcomes better if it was just 

a linear organization can you because to me I

think and again you tell me but I always thought 

that would be the key if you could show a company

that they're going to drive more Revenue by being 

more inclusive they should jump on board you know

both feed on so what's your thoughts on that I 

mean in theory yes but the the the the challenge

with being um inclusive is that it's hard it 

is um it takes a lot of time it takes a lot

of conflict resolution it takes a lot of empathy 

and um companies in my experience time is money

and so they um are looking to Dev develop and do 

things very quickly so they can drive you know

Drive sales and right but when you're really 

being an inclusive organization you have to do

a lot more work to get to that spot where people 

feel comfortable sharing their ideas and sharing

their thoughts and sharing those perspectives 

so a lot of times you know companies will say

okay we're going to bring some people in and 

we're going to hire all these people but then

they're not doing the work to get people to stay 

and they're not getting they're not doing the work

to educate people on how different cultures or 

different communities communicate how they view

the world how perspectives kind of see things 

and so because everyone's kind of looking for

that quick fix and inclusion is not a quick fix it 

just isn't and it comes with a lot of time effort

and empathy that a lot of companies they're not 

necessarily willing to to give So based on that

you know for my audience and for any person that 

works in Corporate America and for anybody who

has a Dei organization how is it being measured 

How would how would the average person who works

who's an entry level a mid manager know that 

their Dei program is working um really it's

about um the attrition rates um who's who's 

staying and who's um going it's also looking

at who's being promoted and um who's not being 

promoted so those are very key tangible types

of things that tell you that they're doing work um 

at my company we do a lot of work around Supplier

Diversity um so we measure how we are on boarding 

venders how we're supporting diverse businesses

so for example what we did um we have a very 

thoughtful Supplier Diversity Program and in

Chicago during the pandemic ironically we moved 

offices and so we built a brand new office and

what my company said they they said okay we're 

GNA have 50% of the vendors that are associated

with our move and that construction project 

are going to be diverse vendors and so they

were thoughtful they did a lot of research they 

did a lot of um relationship building and so as

a result of that 81% of our vendors that were 

associated with our um office move were diverse

vendors so it's really about looking at where 

your organization is and what it is that you're

kind of going to work at and how you're going 

to improve those things because that's another

thing that a lot of Dei um programs do they kind 

of boil the ocean they say okay we want to do this

we want to do that we want to do everything and 

and you can't and and you have to be thoughtful

and you have to look at Dei as a business and 

you have to say okay these are some goals this

is what I want to have this is where we are this 

is where I'm trying to be and then actively work

and create initiatives that are going to get you 

there that is outstanding and and and I just want

to back up a little bit because I want to make 

sure everybody's on the same page with what you

said right so first your company is 100% committed 

to Dei now let's be clear a lot of companies say

that but here's the to my question the employees 

can see that you're 100% committed because you

said we're g 50% of our vendors are going to be 

people of col people can see that so they can

see that you're actually doing what you're said 

you're going to do which I would imagine when you

talked about that one of the measure measuring 

sticks was attrition I would imagine when people

see that the company is actually 100% committed 

and then they can see some of the results they're

probably staying at your organization as well is 

that correct correct yes exactly exactly we know

that a lot of companies have Dei organ uh Dei 

departments we know they still struggle to be

able to to be effective because most of them 

are not 100% committed most of them to your

point of looking at the short putt so you know 

hey we gota you know we gotta drive Revenue now

they're not looking at the whole 18 whole whole 

course right the question I have is then why is

Dei under attack because out in the media sphere 

right you have everybody calling their woke or

you know they uh I'm GNA lose my job or you know 

there you know uh uh um these diverse we don't

want diversity and incl usion you know people are 

having uh political campaigns not talking about

you know we're going to save you from foreign 

enemies or we're going to make the economy better

or you know we're gonna build out infrastructure 

it's woke it's we don't want diversity inclusion

so if it ain't working the way it's supposed 

to but why are people attacking it you

know so I don't know if we 

have enough time to go into

I mean you know people don't like it when their 

environment is changing and they like things

to stay the way they are and our country is is 

Shifting and is changing and um and people are

nervous so we KN you know I mean statistics say 

count you know blah you know all these things 

so so for so for people that this is Shifting

for that is very um it's a challenge for them 

because they don't know how to do that and so

and that's part of what's making and this is just 

my opinion making our country just so polarized

is the fact that people aren't willing to give 

up what they think they have and um oh can you

just back hold it for one second so you I just 

want to you said people are not willing to give

up what they think they have what did you mean 

by that I mean that there's a book and I can't

remember who wrote it but it's called the sum of 

all fears and basically what that book talks about

are all of these proposals that could have gone 

through government so they're talking about like

the unions they're talking about different Housing 

Programs different things that weren't necessarily

racially based but because of the context in which 

it was framed for people by certain people that

they were um talking about how they were going 

to lose something if this legislation went went

through and so as a result of that you know we 

have people that have been um influenced by the

media influenced by our government influenced by a 

lot of different people that aren't truly educated

on what are those things that could potentially 

benefit people to make things a little bit more

Equitable across the Spectrum and so I think that 

um because our country it's it's so racially based

um people are so it's such a a a difficult topic 

and finally um people you know especially black

people are are saying you know what this has been 

going on for years and they can give very specific

tangible examples but people are just saying well 

no that's not true I mean in Florida they're just

saying this slavery um benefited black people I 

mean so I mean people are just kind of uh spearing

you know this kind of rhetoric around because 

they're trying to make people think that they're

going to lose something if they aren't given you 

know if things shift or if things change and I

think that has a lot to do and so fear-mongering 

corre Zero Sum game and the strategy divide and

conquer absolutely right if we can separate them 

and they fight amongst themselves we can stay in

power right right you know obviously we have a 

lot of um you know white listeners to a black

executive perspective podcast and what you just 

got from understanding the majority of of of that

fear the majority of the Zero Sum game I'm G to 

lose out is coming from the white population what

would you say to our audience that are white 

um and calm their fears that University Equity

inclusion within their organization is a good 

thing and then more importantly is not to replace

them so I would love to hear your thoughts on 

that yeah I mean I think that what people have to

really recognize is that as Americans and really 

just for people in general in the world people

want the same thing they want to feel happy they 

want their children to be successful they want to

be able to um live and work most people want to 

work you know all they want everybody wants the

same things and so I think what you have to do is 

people have different experiences and perspectives

and so it's really about taking that time to 

listen to understand where people are coming from

and what it is that they want for themselves and 

really try to find a a way way to blend the values

and the things that they want together so I think 

that that's something that's extremely important

and what we found like at my bank especially and 

I think this has worked pretty well is um white

people assume that they're not diverse because 

a lot of times you know I'll go into a room and

they'll say I'm not diverse and I'm like uh 

everybody diversity means difference it's not

you know it's not I'm black so I'm not you know 

that's not what diversity is so so basically what

you're saying is they're they're thinking it from 

a color standpoint corre Bas got you color or age

or you know whatever you throw that dimension in 

there but but they're looking at it you know I am

not diverse and so what I always try to explain 

to people is that no person is the same and that

everybody has different perspectives and different 

ways of doing things and to your point earlier

that you talked about if you're willing to do that 

work then you can make more money for your company

and then more opportunities will follow and so 

and I'm still doing it now is we've just created 

um places for conversation so I started right

in 2020 and we were very in my opinion pretty 

courageous because we did three panel discussions

um if we called them getting real about race 

so the first one we had black people sharing

their feelings after George Floyd then after some 

convincing um I had found four white people and

I said I want you to share what you have learned 

about race and what you were taught about race and

they shared their experiences and then we did a 

program for Baby Boomers and Millennials and what

they were taught about race and how that kind of 

influenced their perspective and then after that

I did a lot of self small group conversations to 

react to what they heard during those panels but

what we've managed to do at my company is kind 

of let people tell their own diversity or their

own inclusion story and so from that people are 

getting to know each other from very different

perspectives and so as a result so once I can 

connect with you emotionally then it's much easier

for me to have an understanding of where you're 

coming from and then that's why we can drive we're

we're having a lot of success at my company I 

would say is because we're we're facilitating

these conversations where people feel safe enough 

to share with each other I love it leslee I love

it I love it I love it and that's why we started 

this podcast because at the end of the day for

whatever reason we don't talk about race we avoid 

it like the plague and the reason we avoid it it

doesn't bring people together it further pushes 

them apart but if you can get people together and

put get them in a safe space and let them talk 

and let them ask questions without them being

judged or anything like that it's amazing that we 

start coming together and more importantly we see

the other person's perspective right no matter 

what color so that's awesome one of the things

you know and I know I'm just thinking of things 

that my audience will probably want to dive into

how did as as an individual and I I've you know 

I had a friend of mine tell me that um you know

his friend was going for a job and he had talked 

and you had talked earlier about networking okay

and typically people hire who they already know 

all right so he was going for J white guy right

uh guy said yep I like you give me a couple days 

I think I'm gon bring you in right and then when

he followed up with him uh the hiring manager 

said uh unfortunately man that job is filled

we had to give it to a diverse candidate right 

so then this yeah see how your head goes down

and then so now this guy walks away saying that 

was my job all right but they had to give it to

a diverse candidate which basically in his mind 

this person wasn't qualified they only hired

them because they're black or woman or whatever 

the case may be so so speak to that a little bit

because that's one of the things going back to 

your some of all fears type thing right or what

you think you have right so I would love to hear 

your thoughts on that because that's something

that we're seeing a lot and a lot of people I chat 

with and they're frustrated because the the person

comes into the company with two hands tied behind 

their back because now they're they're denoted

they're noted as a diverse not not the the the 

companies not saying but the people around them

saying you only here because you're a diverse uh 

hire yeah and I mean a lot of that just comes from

um education um you know everyone will always 

say well we couldn't we couldn't find anybody

and um and but I you know I I know thousands of 

people that have degrees and that are experienced

and that have um wonderful characteristics and 

I and I I could call one you know right now or

20 right now if you needed me to but the problem 

is we're not looking and and it's a a lot of it

is just the perpetuation to your point again of 

like just media and how um people always talk

about these things and so rather than saying so 

sometimes people are trying to make others like

them feel better and so they'll things like oh it 

went to the diverse candidate so instead of saying

oh we gave it to this woman who um is from MIT 

has you know this degree she she has this type of

background correct and she brings this and she's a 

perfect fit for the job right so instead of I mean

so we really have to change how we are talking 

about what is required for these jobs and so we're

you have to kind of shift that conversation into 

like what is the experience what is it the skills

that these people are possessing and not about the 

diversity and that that's the biggest challenge

but not there isn't enough education around hiring 

managers because you know if we all can put our

HR hats on and say okay you know HR I'm I know 

because I'm in nhr that this is how we we talk

about things but we're not educating those hiring 

managers that are making those hiring and that's

really where that kind of uh is is the hiccup 

there's no question and I always said you know

I I always came come back to this if you really 

want to diversify your organization you will

because if you don't any excuse will do right okay 

so that that's a atic you know one of the one of

the areas that I've heard uh you know my audience 

probably heard when they're trying you and that's

why I want to jump into it because you spoke to 

it well it's hard to find somebody we don't know

nobody and this is my opinion and and look I've 

been in Corporate America for over 35 years I've

seen a lot okay I've been a hiring manager at the 

end of the day to your point when you just want to

feel the job and you and you you say hey lesie I 

know Lesley let's get Lesley in here here but if

you don't have a network of individuals that's 

outside of the people that you know then you

say it's hard and then not only that I want this 

where I want to dive into this because when you

we're talking about senior leadership I'm talking 

you know SVP I'm talking seite right at the end

of the day it's always hard to find a person of 

color a black person to be you know C or CFO and

and I and I get a sense and that's why I want 

to hear your thoughts is the uh the process of

that of finding that individual in other words if 

somebody's white and we're just looking at their

background and we're like oh who do you know and 

we we vet them a little bit but if they're black

they have to be unique they have to be like an 

astronaut they have to be the one one of one%

to get the job versus everybody else didn't have 

to be vetted that way they're regular individuals

right and they're just and they got the and look 

they probably got it because they deserve it I'm

not knocking it but when it comes to vetting 

highlevel black individuals it's a it's a it's

a different vetting game let me hear your thoughts 

on that yeah I mean I mean you spoke to it um it's

it's who you know and um the the challenge is 

you have to work with those leaders to help them

expand their networks and so there are several 

things that you can do to get people to expand

their networks if people are willing to do that 

and that is part of the challenge you have to

get people willing to do that and that comes from 

again conversation engagement and empathy but one

of the things like we do at our bank is so we have 

ergs but and I I had a I'm we're starting a pride

ERG at the moment so okay um and My Philosophy 

is every ERG has an executive sponsor and I work

with those executive sponsors and I say okay 

this is what your role is and I give them their

education I say here are some articles here are 

some podcasts here are some things if you are

going to be working with this ERG I need really 

need you to understand this community but we want

I have a rule that if you identify with that ERG 

for my executive sponsors so I can't have my black

um Executives representing our African-American 

ERG are I have to have someone who's white um so

they can understand what some of those challenges 

are and what people are saying on the ground to

help grow their networks and so you have to put 

people into situations where if they're not going

to do it on their own you have to create those 

opportunities for for you to do it for them and

so it's important to make sure that um those 

SE Suite those SVP leaders have some kind of

access to different employees across all different 

backgrounds so they can really start to understand

that everyone is at the company because we hired 

them into the company because they brought some

value to the company and so we have to give them 

the opportunity to share how they are contributing

and how they're adding value and do it in a 

way that's not being judged by something that

they said or something that they did but really 

um giving our senior leaders that exposure to

this is how these communities communicate this is 

how they work this is how things happen in those

communities that's awesome are you guys do you 

get any push back from within the organization

it seems like you guys you got a lot of good stuff 

going on so I'm you know i' never seen nobody 100%

of anybody of anything be so what do you what 

do you how do you deal with the push back that

happens in the organization you know I mean really 

what we're trying to do so thankfully I work for

an organization that's based in community um 

and so our mission is really to help communities

Thrive and so we give Capital to Community Banks 

Credit Unions those types of things so they can

make home loans and they can make small business 

loans in their communities and so really um what

we do whenever I get some pushback it's really 

about you know do you understand what community

means and what it means in these particular areas 

and so like I don't know last year I got a letter

a very long email from someone that was um very 

interested in why we decided to call out juneth

um and celebrate it as a part of the company's 

kind of celebratory things but we didn't do

Fourth of July and you know and the the person 

was very you know upset because we didn't call

out Fourth of July and I said we've been calling 

out Fourth of July for you know years but um and

we've talked about but we this is the first time 

that juneth is a holiday in our country and a lot

of people don't understand what that means and so 

my job is to educate you about different things

that impact different individuals that aren't 

like you and so that's kind of how I keep all

of that going so wow I mean listen you know 

unfortunately you're not gonna get everybody

but I love the way you yeah it's just not going to 

happen but still you guys are 100% committed you

know earlier we talked about intersectionality 

right and so you know you have you know we all

are not just singular individuals right you have 

African-Americans that's gay you have you know

LBG you have a whole Litany of different people 

but also who intersect into different things so

tell me a little bit in terms of how de the the 

influence for how it's needed for Dei I mean the

importance I should say I mean intersectionality 

um I mean you just said it best we we are not just

one thing you know I am a woman and I experience 

things as a woman I am biracial I experiencing

things being um I'm genx and so my view of the 

world keep going down the roll and but but see

and what's really interesting for me you know 

especially me being biracial you know I get a

lot of people are like well what's it like to be 

mixed I'm like I don't know you know what's it

like to be BL you know I don't know and so and I 

can't answer you know because even my experience

as a biracial person um is very different from my 

brother's experience as a biracial person you know

my brother looks different from me my brother 

is a man and so how I can navigate through the

world is very different how he has to navigate 

through the world and when you think about that

intersectionality um there are lots of multiple 

lenses that people View and experience the world

and so you can't lump people into just one 

bucket and so that's really what diversity

equity and that key word is inclusion inclusion 

really talking about it's like making people

understand things from a variety of experiences 

and perspectives not just putting people into a

bucket and that's what's really important that is 

awesome and I love that answer because it is so

important and at the end of the day if we can all 

come together and more importantly stop worrying

about you know what about me right and really 

you know say hey let's what can we do together

you know our our our our our companies our country 

would be going in a lot of different uh PL better

places absolutely you know a couple of weeks about 

a month or two ago the Supreme Court came down and

said that you can't use race for admissions 

um to for for college admissions do you think

that's gonna have any effect in terms of corporate 

America from a Dei standpoint I mean I think it

already has you know I mean you had the GOP you 

know they had the was it the State's Attorneys

or attorney generals sending letters um putting 

people on notice and exactly had um you had the

Democrats um putting other people on notice you 

know that you can't yes and so I think that you

know again it's really about you know who you are 

as a company and as an organization and what it is

that your company truly values and so I think 

that you know if you do um things like based

on race that makes people nervous because they're 

looking at okay am I gonna be sued and so what you

have to think about is what are what am I doing 

for all of my employees and what experiences am

I giving to all of my employees and what do they 

need and what conversations do they have to have

because not everybody walks into a space at the 

same level with the same Viewpoint and so maybe

providing employees with things that they hadn't 

considered prior is the way to do that without

necessarily calling out race specifically but you 

can call out different experiences you can call

out different ideas and perspectives based on um 

what is happening in the world so so Bas based on

that and I hear you how do so if I'm hearing that 

and you know things like they don't want to be

sued so when a company says that hey I want and go 

back to what you said earlier about hey 50% of our

vendors are going to be you know diverse right 

so how do you now um are are able to increase

your diversity but not you know say race or come 

up with percentages in terms of what you want to

do from a from a A diversity standpoint I mean 

I I think you you want to always keep in mind

your numbers and you you want to always kind of 

look at like what's happening and but I do think

you know even when we were very targeted around 

finding our vendors um those diverse vendors to

work on that project we didn't hire those diverse 

vendors because they were black they were diverse

we hired those vendors because we intentionally we 

looked for people that could give us the services

and products that we needed and they had the best 

service that was available and so we went out to

find and so we didn't say okay well we're not 

going to take any bids from any white company

we we didn't do that you know we took bids from 

everybody but then we made decisions based on our

price points what they're what they were offering 

and that's how those DEC decisions were made but

it was because we were being very thoughtful in 

making sure that we had a wide array of people

that were responding and we went outside of our 

networks um to find different vendors that could

compete for those bids and for those projects 

that's how we were able to do it so we weren't

doing it just to say Hey you know we got to put 

some black people in to build our chairs or you

know whatever we we didn't do it that way we 

did it um we went through our normal process

process but then we expanded our Network to make 

sure that we were finding the best vendors that

could meet our needs awesome awesome you know I 

got two final questions for you it seems like you

know your bank you know number one they hired the 

the right person right you you have the passion

and you you're 100% behind it you're making sure 

you're trying to include everyone outside of you

know your organization what other organization 

you have seen that's doing a really good job

from a diversity Equity inclusion standpoint so 

I would say I mean and I am biased um the YMCA

um okay they do some great set that up before you 

left I mean they do but see one of the things that

the Y does is they they take their communities 

through like um there's a there's a inventory

it's called the Intercultural development in 

inventory that kind of just kind of bases your

cultural awareness so they take their leaders 

through that they have a lot of conversations

around race so they're very bold um I would 

also say you know I always speak to um Nike

I mean honestly I mean I think that just with 

how they stood behind Colin Kaepernick during

that whole I I don't I'm not a I don't follow 

football yeah yeah yeah no no no I know when he

took the knee and stuff like that yeah but they 

you know they said this is Who We Are are and

this is what we are about and they did not waver 

from that and so I think that you know you have

to take a stand on who you are and so and for me 

Nike kind of represents they have always been not

always but you know I mean in the last you know 20 

years they have been very inclusive they've been

very thoughtful about how they could you know 

work with different um abilities um I love they

have new shoe designs for people that you know 

have you know uh Developmental and uh they're

physically um challenged and those of things and 

so I mean but they're always being they're at the

Forefront of how they can be more inclusive 

I would also say that hayatt um International

they do an exceptional job um Tyron stud Meer he 

does some fantastic work with hayatt in terms of

thinking about their employees and thinking 

about how they can grow that Pipeline and

they're very intentional about who's coming into 

into the company and how they're being successful

so those are two I would watch for sure that's 

awesome thank you for that feedback and then the

final thought is what do you want to leave to our 

listeners today what's your final thought for our

listeners I mean my final thought is inclusion 

matters it it's it's just it's important and I

will say that you know our country at the moment 

is very divisive um it's very polarized but you

know knowing who you are and knowing what it's 

about and how you want to serve all people and

all customers is really important and you can only 

do that by bringing a variety of people together

and being intentional about being inclusive I love 

it be intentional about being inclusive I love it

I love it how can a black executive perspective 

podcast help you lesli you know um I appreciate

this conversation and what is what I am definitely 

going to do is share this with my Executives and

I'm going to share it with um a lot of people that 

are asking questions about how we can do this work

better and so um I do think that bringing in very 

relevant topics and bringing in speakers and one

of the things I would love to hear more about 

is the polarization that's happening and so if

you have someone coming up to talk about that 

especially with these elections that are coming

that would that would be a fantastic thing for 

me to learn from well guess what we do and I'm

going to circle back with you after and I'll let 

you know as soon as we book the time because we

already chatted with a couple individuals we just 

got to scheduled it so we'll definitely let you

on know on that you know I want to thank you for 

your passion your intellect you know you you you

you bring a level of not just expertise but I'll 

use your word very intentional um and at the end

of the day to make things you know there's an 

old saying nothing grows in a comfort zone and

you know most people and we're all human beings 

we want to be comfortable however you grow when

you're uncomfortable correct right and that's 

where we need to get a lot of these organizations

to it's okay to be uncomfortable and not try to 

play for the short putt but be uncomfortable so

then you can win you know the the 18 hole game 

versus the first two holes so you helped us with

that today you gave us a lot to think uh things 

to think about so my tidbit for the day is this

and is by Allan Joyce we have a very diverse 

environment and a very inclusive culture and

those characteristics got us through the tough 

times diversity generates better strategy better

risk management better debates debates and better 

outcomes and that's by Allan enjoice so hopefully

you enjoy today's uh session is DUI working love 

as I said love to to hear your feedback give us

feedback and for my guest Leslie I'm Tony tidbit 

we're out thank you for tuning in to this episode

of Tony tidbit a black executive perspective 

and for joining in today's conversation with

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