On this very special episode we're getting back together with two mamas we talked to last year to see how the first year of parenting has gone. We talked about delivery, feeding, raccoons, Home Depot, repetitive use injuries, and Longaberger baskets.

We also started this episode with a chat with "Dairy Carrie" Carrie Mess, recorded live at the World Dairy Expo in Madison, Wisconsin. Carrie was Caite's mentor for starting the podcast, a well known agvocate, dairy farmer, and mother of two.

This ended up being a long episode, but it's one of the best demonstrations of exactly why we started this show. Enjoy!

Thank you for joining us today on Barnyard Language. If you enjoy the show, we encourage you to support us by becoming a patron. Go to Patreon to make a small monthly donation to help cover the cost of making a show. Please rate and review the podcast and follow the show so you never miss an episode.

 You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok as BarnyardLanguage, and on Twitter we are BarnyardPod. If you'd like to connect with other farming families, you can join our private Barnyard Language Facebook group. We're always in search of future guests for the podcast. If you or someone you know would like to chat with us, get in touch.

 We are a proud member of the Positively Farming Media Podcast Network.

Welcome to Barnyard Language.

We are Katie and Arlene, an Iowa sheep farmer and an Ontario dairy

farmer with six kids, two husbands, and a whole lot of chaos between us.

So kick off your boots, reheat your coffee, and join us for some

Barnyard Language, honest talk about running farms and raising

families.

In case your kids haven't already learned all the swears from being in the barn,

it might be a good idea to put on some headphones or turn down the volume.

While many of our guests are professionals, they

aren't your professionals.

If you need personalized advice,

consult your And maybe we'll make this a two part episode

since it's three hours long.

Yeah, maybe.

Or maybe not.

Maybe we'll just invite people to get a beer and get some supper and have a chat.

Yeah, they don't have to listen to it all at once.

Raising babies and electrocuting

raccoons.

Language, and for only the second time in history, Katie and I are actually

in the same place, and we have a guest.

It's the third time in history, Arlene.

Okay, well, second time recording.

In recording history, yeah.

Third time in the, in our life.

And we're back in the place where we kind of met for the first time.

So we're in Madison at Dairy Expo, and we have a guest with us today.

The famous Dairy Carrie, Carrie Mess, is joining

us today, too.

I'm not sure if it's famous or infamous.

Well,

yeah.

Potato patata.

Potato patata.

That's right.

I mean,

I'm cool with either.

Whatever.

So Carrie was one of our, our very first guests, I think, other than each other.

And was Katie's mentor when the podcast idea got started.

So, uh, it happened.

You mentored us right into existence.

I'm sorry.

Hopefully the people listening are happy about it.

No, I really love the community.

That you guys have built through this podcast, you're really filling

a niche that, um, was needed.

Um, on the dairy side, we have the Dairy Girl Network that kind of does

some of the same kind of thing of how we tie as women in the industry, um,

all the roles we're responsible for.

But you guys have taken, you know, some of that idea and made it not

just dairy specific and, and really Connected with a lot of cool people.

I love what you guys are talking about.

Good

job.

Yay!

Yeah, we're enjoying it too.

And there is something about parenting as a separate facet of what we do, right?

Because for so many, for so many of us, the farm becomes central

to our role, but then raising kids and farming at the same time is,

is not an easy job, as we all know.

I always think it's funny when people think that, like, moms

who are farmers are stay at home moms.

And some of them are.

And some of them are.

I am not.

Um, like, am I a work with kids mom?

Is that?

Yeah, working with your children.

Like, working two jobs at the same time.

It's perfect.

Everybody loves it.

Never goes wrong.

But that's a lot of the listeners.

You know, I said women earlier, but that's not true.

You have people of all genders.

Um, as part of the community, and that's why it's so important, because

we gotta talk about this shit.

Yeah.

So everybody knows it's

hard for all of us.

Yeah, that's right.

And when your kids are on the job site with you, or are in daycare,

or wherever they happen to be.

Right.

When the work is happening, and we know that the work doesn't end

even at the end of a daycare day.

Even if you've got your kids in care, then you're still juggling all the things.

All the things, all the time.

That a 24 hour day job can sometimes bring with it.

I think two farm kids are different.

Um, I think with that comes.

I don't want to say an expectation of some of the behavior that we see from

our kids, but there are things that are, um, snuck by my kids that might

be more hammered down with town kids.

But.

You know, in case anyone missed Carrie's kid peeing.

I mean, he got off the bus before he started peeing, I think.

So that was good.

Yeah, he got off the bus and made it like four steps off the side of

the road before he dropped her out.

And had an incredible arc.

That was really quite impressive.

Um,

but, I see.

We live on a quiet country road, but his bus pulled off and he started peeing.

Suddenly there was traffic, like all these cars coming by.

Plus the

whole side of the bus, I'm guessing.

Well, no, that bus

went by.

They were going the other way?

They went, but then the lakeside Lutheran bus came past.

The church school bus came past.

And they got the full view.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm glad he made it off the bus.

Clearly he had to go.

That's an accomplishment in itself.

But I haven't, maybe, done a very good job about, um, furthering,

like, the modesty piece.

So, Ben was born, and he has a birthmark that covers, like, half of his body.

So, when he was born, and we were figuring everything out, the one thing

I said was, like, okay, body positivity.

We're leaning in on that, but we've maybe done a little too good of a job.

Ben has no shame, at

all, about anything on his body.

And, um, doesn't, does not care.

Does not care, at all.

It'll come around eventually.

How old is he?

Five,

but I don't think it's coming.

I really don't.

You've got time.

That one.

Um, not, not, not

kid mooning, mooning people outside the, the, uh, the bus.

If we're

lucky only

that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it'll be fine.

Yeah.

Can't wait for that call.

So given the fact that we are in Wisconsin means that I left the

farm again, which is a wild thing.

And.

And I know that a lot of people, especially in the ag forums,

talk about, you know, like never being able to leave the farm.

And I think that even the fact that we can leave and I have some both like Not

guilt personally, but guilt about the fact that we have the help to be able to do it.

So I just want to say that out loud, that I know that not everyone

gets the opportunity to get away.

But you know, like, if there are times when you can, you know,

that guilt for a second though?

Yeah.

It's not just guilt, it's also fear of being judged.

Yeah, that's true.

Oh, must be nice.

Must be nice.

Yeah, you could leave.

Must be nice.

And then I say the same thing when I see other people doing

things that I want to do.

Must be nice.

Yeah, or even within industries, right?

Like, oh, the crop farmers.

Yeah, they get to go.

What were they

doing this winter

when it was 20 below?

Yeah, in January when all their water bowls are frozen and they,

yeah, they get to go on vacation.

But yeah, I mean, sure.

Must be nice.

It is.

And it is nice.

But we should be happy for

people that they have that opportunity, right?

We're in a place right now where we have older kids and we have good

health and we know that we haven't always been in that place and not

everyone can afford it or not in a, in a physical location where there is,

you know, there isn't good employment, you know, like we, we are lucky that

we've got people that we can depend on.

And my father in law is still healthy enough to be able

to keep an eye on things.

Yeah, that's right.

Feed calves and look out for sick cows, you know, that kind of stuff.

Thank you.

Yeah, we have, you know, we farm with my in laws, but my mother in law's retired

after her farm accident, and my father in law's still out there, so, you know, he's

there, some days he's wrecking more things than, than fixing, but, yeah, it's a body

that, you know, we know will at least Yes.

And we have some really good help and we're only 30 minutes from the expo

grounds here so it's really easy for us to buzz in on this but for Pat

and I we've both realized that it's really important for our relationship

to take one night away, like.

Every six months, if we can, like twice a year, if we can get it, just one night

away from just the two of us.

It's been so important for our marriage.

Well, when one night, two days, like when you're with your kids and your

in laws and your everybody all the time, it feels like a long time.

If you can get away, we, yeah, sometimes, you know, Spring and fall we do try and

often it's like it looks like it's gonna rain for the next two days Do you want

to go somewhere and I mean obviously it's you know, like not ideal weather, but it

doesn't matter like you can Yeah, if you can get away for a little bit of time.

It doesn't mean a lot

One of the things I've we've noticed is like we have to leave leave

Because even though we don't live on the farm our farm in our house are separate

What we find if we're not at the farm doing stuff there and we're just at

home and like trying to relax at home we can't Because we see all the things

that we haven't had time to do at home, and it doesn't work, and we have to

be gone.

Yeah,

that removal from your workplace and your home is kind of critical

for actually being able to fully...

Let your guard

down.

And you know that 2k8 was working your day job from home too, like,

where's the line?

Yeah, the line exists.

The computer's right over there, and you can just walk

over and put in another hour.

Shut the door.

Yeah, my desk is in

my bedroom.

I can't, I can't lay in bed without seeing the computer on, and yeah.

I know,

though, we went away for a couple nights a few weeks ago because

Jim won his concert two weeks ago, and it was amazing just to be Must

be nice.

Must be nice.

I hope it was nice.

It was nice.

No, I'm telling you about all of that.

No,

no.

The concert, everything.

It was amazing just to not have anything we should be doing.

Like, the only thing that was expected of us was to eat.

And show up for a concert and show up for a plane.

Check.

That was it.

And it was so, like, it's really uncomfortable when you

do leave because you're like, What am I supposed to be doing?

You're doing, right.

Where's my calendar?

What's on my schedule?

What's next?

What's happening in ten minutes?

And you're like, Nothing?

Right.

Nothing.

Yeah, whatever I feel like doing.

Or, or I could do nothing.

Right.

What do

you mean I could just take a nap?

Yeah.

And I can actually take a nap without anybody climbing on

top of me and saying, Mommy!

Yeah.

Open my granola bar.

Are your thumbs broken?

Yeah, clearly.

A lot of the times when we've been able to get away, like I was speaking and

so Pat was able to like come with me.

So I still didn't even fully have that, like, total disconnect where

I didn't have to do that, but it was still totally worth it.

Just to not, not be in our zip code.

I think any way you can hack it, get some time away from the farm, we have to.

Keep ourselves sane.

Yeah, and the getting away from the farm and the kids combo is extra stressful.

I mean, I know that.

You know when you've got little people if you're breastfeeding or you

know, like if they're not sleeping through the night It's not like you

can just be like, hey grandma, you like to be up 24 hours a day, right?

So I know that yeah, it's not always that easy But once you're in that place

to be able to do it And a lot of times in farm families too,

like that older generation isn't able

Yeah.

Or they might be in the barn so that you can leave the barn part, right?

Right.

Or they're just, you know, the age where they're not,

they can't keep up with little

kids.

Yeah, that's right.

It is nice, since our kids are getting a little older, that they can go over

to Grandma and Grandpa's a little bit easier, because they don't have to be...

Adults frequently do not think my children have to be picked up and carried nearly

as often as my children still think they need to be picked up and carried.

But they're a little more self sufficient than they were a few years ago.

But, yeah, it's definitely, they're a lot.

That's for sure.

We

have a dinner we're going to tonight as part of Expo.

And so the kids are going to get off the bus at Grandma and

Grandpa's and go to bed there.

We'll pick them up.

I don't know.

Tonight, when we get home, or in the morning, um, but we were packing the stuff

up, like, we're gonna stay overnight, and like, we'd bother putting the

toothbrushes and toothpaste in there, because Grandma's not going to open

the brush

tonight.

Grandma's not gonna remember, and then if they get

taken out of the bag, then you're just not gonna have toothbrushes at

home tomorrow.

Exactly, so, you know, sometimes you just gotta give up.

Yeah, that's right.

And let it happen.

Let some things go.

Well, I think we are going to wrap up and go look at some more pretty cows.

Yes, and maybe do

some, we've got some elite, elite cow areas to sneak into.

So if you don't hear from us, we need bail money.

We're in Madison.

We got busted for sneaking into private areas.

Super expensive cow areas.

Yeah, they're not private.

No, if you have anyone on drink

down there.

If you pretend you want to buy embryos.

Yeah,

I could look real interested.

Yes.

Yeah.

So thank you very much, Carrie, for joining us again

and for the grilled cheese.

Yeah,

you guys have done a great job.

I'm really proud of what you've built.

You guys don't even know what a big deal Carrie is.

She got like fast passes for grilled cheese.

I didn't even know that was a thing.

It's really helpful when

your neighbor works for the company that

That's the lineup for the grilled cheese here is very impressive.

It is good.

We are going to ask you to go back and listen to episodes with Sarah Zastrow.

So she actually got to come on twice.

So she is maybe our most popular guest other than Katie and myself.

She's been here a couple of times and she is joining us from Michigan.

So there was an episode early on with her while she was pregnant with

her first baby and just announced.

And then a second one where we threw her a podcast.

baby shower.

So if you want all the parenting advice before you have a baby,

that's the episode to listen to.

And then we also have...

Arlene,

I'm going to interrupt for our listeners because this is not a video

medium, as Arlene keeps reminding me.

Sarah is currently hiding in a laundry room closet from her baby.

Um, I think there's a lot of dress shirts behind her and it's very quiet

and she said it's cool and nice in there.

Yeah, yeah.

So the baby doesn't know that she's still in there.

Sarah.

Yeah, that's right.

And we're also talking to Kristen Kelderman, who announced her pregnancy

to us on her podcast episode early on in 2021, I believe, or maybe

winter of 21, 2021, 2022 is when we talked to both of these ladies.

And she was actually pregnant with twins.

So it's her first pregnancy, but she got double the money.

So she has Two new babies and Sarah has one.

And so this episode, we're actually talking to both of them about how life

in the first year with baby has gone.

And we have this interesting perspective of being able to go back and listen

to what they thought it was going to be like before they had their babies.

And then the reality of what it was actually like.

So I'm going to start with Sarah, with our usual first question.

Sarah, can you remind our listeners and us what you're growing?

Yes.

Okay.

First off, thank you for having me back for the third time.

I'm glad to be the three peat here.

Um, so I am growing a baby, a toddler, a one year old, which is insane.

Um, and then we grow corn and soybeans in Central Michigan and then we

have kind of what I consider

our hobby farm division as well.

So we've got some chickens and turkeys and ducks and produce, you know, garden

vegetables and that sort of thing.

So, um, we're having a lot of fun right now.

I'm picking strawberries, uh, every day, which has been, uh, really

interesting with a one year old on my hip, but, uh, yeah, we're, we're

having a lot of fun, so that's good.

Growing chaos is, um, the primary crop around here.

Yes, that's right.

And for the people, as Katie said, it's an audio medium.

Can you tell us what's on your shirt today?

Because you dressed on theme for us.

I did.

I was going to dress up and look nice for you guys, but I have a shirt

that said, good moms say bad words.

And I was like, eh, it's on brand.

So I'm wearing it.

That is perfect.

Kristen, can you remind us and our listeners what you're growing?

Hello everyone, yes, good morning.

Um, thanks again to Arlene and Katie for having me back again.

Um, I feel, uh, so blessed to be here and to join, uh, the, uh,

the most frequent podcaster here.

Um, and, uh, yeah, so my life right now, I am growing.

Uh, twin toddlers, which as I can attest to Sarah, the chaos is real and

it is rampant in our house right now.

Um, but in both a frustrating and an incredibly beautiful way, I'm

trying to see both sides of it.

Um, outside of being a mom, I am growing my career.

I have started a new position, uh, that I'm really excited about, um, working

in farm mental health here in Canada.

for a new national organization.

And, um, and that for me is just like really filling my cup these days, uh,

in kind of taking a step back from mom life and getting back to who I would

say, like, is just me, Kristen, myself, um, and taking myself back to, uh,

to pre kid life, which is coming with a little, you know, some challenges.

I'm now trying to balance and, and do mom life and career life at the same time.

Um, but in my, you know, quote unquote spare time, um, I am also

enjoying this summer getting back out into the garden and really.

getting my hands dirty and growing my vegetable garden, doing

some landscaping around here.

So quite literally growing some plants and, and growing some, you know, gardening

for me is kind of a form of therapy.

So growing my therapy, uh, through my garden as well.

It's nice to have you both back.

I can just, uh, picture the, the toys and, uh, debris that's probably around

your house at this stage of life.

I don't have little people in the house anymore, but I definitely remember.

I've been doing a lot of cleaning out my Google Photos and coming across

memories of the kids at different ages and found one the other day of the girl child.

I'll probably use...

14 months old she had dumped an entire box of Cheerios out

on the floor my daughter And

I play this super fun game where she as she eats she throws half of

everything on the floor You know now that she's done with it right so I get her

out of her Uh, high chair and then we race to see if I can sweep it up faster

or if she can scarf it all up faster off of the floor because for some reason

food mixed with dog hair tastes so much better and she was full in the high chair

but now she's starving suddenly as she gets to the floor and I'm like, no, stop

eating stuff off the floor.

That's for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so much better down there.

That's right.

Different flavor profile, I think,

right?

It tastes more like the land.

If you eat it off the floor, it tastes more authentic.

And it's higher in fiber once it's got dog hair in it.

There you go.

Um, it was a

So I ended up with an emergency c section.

I was six days overdue and they said we're going to induce you on Thursday night.

So, Thursday morning I ended up having a c section, having an emergency c

section and I just, um, didn't really...

I didn't foresee that, you know, because I had everything planned and that was not in

my plan, you know, so, um, anyway, that, I ended up having a super long labor,

prodromal labor for like 11 days, which, um, they used to call that false labor.

But now they say, oh, it's not false.

It is labor.

It's just kind of very slow labor.

So, um, I was in prodromal labor for 11 days, which means I didn't

sleep very well for 11 days.

And so by the time labor came around, I was just absolutely exhausted.

So I was in labor for about 40 hours, like active labor for about 40 hours,

pushed for four and a half, and then I was like, We're done here, folks.

We are done.

Caught me open and get this shit over with.

Like, I have never been so exhausted in my life.

So, um, that was, uh, you know, a surprise.

I had, for a long time she was breached, so I had sort of emotionally

prepared for what would happen if I had to have a c section.

But then she flipped, so I was like, Okay, check that off the list.

We're, we're golden.

We're in the home stretch.

stretch here, boys.

And, um, we were not, in fact, in the home stretch.

So, uh, anyway, that was, um, like, not as difficult of a recovery as

I had expected, uh, physically.

I was more sore from pushing for so long, and I, like, my eyes were

bloodshot, my cheek, like, the hollows of my cheeks were bruised.

It was really...

tough on my body.

Um, but that was more from the pushing than the actual C section.

My C section was great, really easy.

The C section recovery was way easier than 11 days of labor, you know.

So, um, anyway, ended up, um, you know, doing fine with recovery

physically, um, but emotionally, uh, was really just rocked.

So, I, um, I had always thought of like birth trauma as like, oh, people, you

know, people can like die on the table and like people can, you know, hemorrhage

and lose tons of blood and all these like really terrible things that could happen.

Um, but I never thought of like, Oh, your, your body will be emotionally

wrecked for a good solid week and a half.

Um, good luck, you know, so anyway, I kind of, um, that was a little

bit tough for me and then I just had some wild, wild hormones and I, it

ended kind of in the two week period.

So they're like, Oh no, it's, you know, it's fine.

It ended, but just some really scary thoughts and really scary,

like things going through my head.

And, um, my husband was in the field, so we ended up having tons and tons

of family over, which was really great, but also I definitely like.

Put on a front when people were here, and then as soon as people left, it

was a completely different story.

So, I think that it was good that I was sort of prepared for that.

Um, and I had watched some videos and things like that about, like, just

postpartum hormones, and like, you will have some really scary thoughts, and you

will think about some really horrible things, and, you know, like, I just

remember, we're gonna really bring down the mood here, but it's all about reality.

So, I'm gonna say it anyway.

Somebody had told me that, um, like, they...

So they felt like they were like grieving their old life.

They felt like they, um, they kind of felt like they were babysitting

and like, when's this kid's parents going to come pick, pick it up?

Cause I'm tired of this, you know?

And I definitely felt that.

And I remember thinking like, If something happened, I don't even think I would

care, you know, and I was so tired and so exhausted and I like fell asleep

with the baby kind of like in the crook of my arm on the couch and I was kind

of breastfeeding her and like she had fallen asleep and I had fallen asleep

and my husband came out and he was like, Sarah, like, wake up, you know, like, the

baby's not really in a great position, like, this is really scaring me, and I

remember thinking, like, I don't even care if she dies, like, I would grieve

that loss, and I would, um, I would be over it, and I would, and then, and then

I had that thought, and I was like, oh, my, something is wrong, like, this is

really not, not good, um, you know, and so, it ended up, like, I ended up doing

a ton of journaling through that time, and kind of journaling everything that

had happened with my birth, and these crazy thoughts I was having, and, um,

And, and it ended up kind of fading and then after that it was kind of fine.

So, um, that ended like in two weeks after my birth.

Um, and then things got a little bit easier and she

was sleeping better at night.

So, um, yeah, but that first, that first couple of weeks was extremely challenging.

Um, and just really scary.

To, like, think about what your body's been through, what your hormones are

putting you through, that you're getting to know this new alien that's suddenly,

apparently, your responsibility, even though it doesn't feel like that.

Um, and I'm so glad, Katie, you had said in our first, or the last,

uh, podcast interview, like, you're not, you might not feel this way.

Emotional attachment right away, and I did not at all.

And that in itself scared me also, because I was like, what

is wrong with me and this thing?

And there was no bonding.

And we had talked, I wanted this like golden hour so bad.

And I was, Drugged that entire golden hour and I don't know what the baby was

doing and I don't know what I was doing and I Woke up and she was breastfeeding

and they were like, how does it feel?

And I was like, I can't feel anything Like I have no idea, you know, so it

was a complete Uh, completely different from what I had envisioned, and I

think just getting, um, acquainted with, like, the reality of it took,

took me a couple of weeks, you know.

And then after that, it was a lot better, and I started to get out of the house

a little bit, and started to exercise again, and I was doing journaling,

and, um, it got better quickly, but that first, those first couple of weeks

was whiplash, you know, really, really A lot different than I had expected.

I know, Sarah, I was thinking a lot about the Baby Blues this last week as we

were preparing for the show and thinking about, that I feel like we tell women that

They'll experience the baby blues, but it'll be hard because you'll love your

baby so much and everything will just be so beautiful that it'll you Yeah, I,

first of all blues is very understated.

That was not the blues.

That was like, happens to somebody depth, I dunno, anyone

who's

experienced it, something I don't, it, it felt like an Biss, that's for sure.

Um,

and I don't, in theory I loved my baby, but it was not an

overwhelming sense of love and adoration.

At first, you know?

And so I think that kind of caught me off guard as well.

Like I said, I'm really glad that you and a few other people had

warned me of that because then I knew, like, oh, this could happen.

This might be, you know, what happens.

And so at least then I knew, like, I'm not completely alone, you know what I mean?

And so I think that I talk about this not to, like, scare new moms

or anything, but, like, that might happen to you, too, and that's okay,

and it will pass, and you will grow to love your baby, and now I love her

more than anything else in the world.

Um, but it...

It was just so unexpected.

And no, there was no newborn bliss, no overwhelming sense of

this is the best day of my life, nothing remotely close to that.

I feel like for me, that first couple of weeks was a lot like, like if

you see a mother raccoon with her cubs, like if you tried to touch one of her

babies, she'd rip your fucking face off.

Yeah.

But I wouldn't say that she's like, Oh, my precious angel babies, you know?

Yes, exactly.

There's not that emotional connection to them, where she's

like, They're the light of my life.

You know, she's just like, I'll fucking kill you if you touch them.

I don't like them that much, but I will kill you if you touch them.

Like, it's so weird that you guys are all muted and I can see you laughing, but

it's just like, dead silence on my end.

Okay, cool.

Anyway, yes, we're all nodding

along.

Yes.

Yeah, it's it's a weird

feeling.

Yeah, it's hard to do a four way interview.

We're trying not to overlap each other.

But yeah, thank you Sarah for being so honest about that time

because like you said, I mean some people do have that initial bond.

They maybe have the labor they expected but so many of us don't and even if

it's what In theory, what you expect, the experience is still something

you cannot really prepare for there.

There's nothing, there's nothing anybody can really say to tell you

what it's gonna be like for you, because it's unique for every person.

It's unique for every baby.

So yeah, every time it's gonna be completely different and

we really can't anticipate it.

And it's good to be honest about how it is for different people so that all of those

scenarios are at least things that you're.

prepared for or or know that could happen.

So, Kristen, do you want to talk a little bit about your labor and first few

weeks, your initial days of motherhood?

Which probably seems like a long way away now, but it was only a year

ago.

Oh, it does.

You know, it feels like they say like parents, like time is like a

vortex when you become a parent.

It's both the longest, most arduous thing and also just like in a

blink of an eye like passes by you.

I completely feel that sentiment so real in my life today.

Um, and yeah, just to start off, I just want to echo, uh, Sarah.

I feel so many of those same feelings.

Um, you know, motherhood.

In those early days for me, um, was, felt so isolating a lot too, um, because you

are just so encapsulated, um, and probably biologically we're forced to just kind of

put those blinders on and focus on keeping these little humans alive, um, but yeah,

I, I echo so many of, of what you shared.

For me, having, uh, going into having twins, I was very well prepared

with my birthing team and my OB that there was a high likelihood

that I would have a c section.

And so, I was very, I kind of went into it very open minded.

I said, you know what, I, I had, you know, kind of a rough idea, a rough plan,

but also, trying my best to just kind of go with the flow at the same time,

uh, which for a type A personality, um, was a little bit difficult for me.

Um, we, uh, we also knew that there was a really real, um, uh, risk of

that the twins would come early too.

So twins generally, um, are, are, can, can come quite early on.

So, leading up to, my due date was supposed to be the beginning of June,

Um, but already, I would say like, late April, May, I was already starting to kind

of be like, Okay, when's the day coming?

When's the day coming?

When's the day coming?

Just kind of like, um, kind of starting to feel some of that anxiety.

And, um, cause I was really uncomfortable.

Like, for me, pregnancy was not a cakewalk.

I don't think that I was truly ready for all of the aches and the pains

and everything that came with that.

Um, and I would consider myself a rather, like, fit person, active person.

I tried to stay, um, you know, throughout my pregnancy moving around and stuff

like that, but I certainly was not what I expected I would be doing.

Um, I was very much less active than I wanted to be, but that month, um,

ahead of time, I was really starting to, uh, anticipate, um, you know, just

wanting it to be over with, honestly, and not the fact that I wanted to

meet my babies that I was so excited.

I was like, I just want this to be done with.

Um, so for us, I went into, uh, one of my OB appointments, and with the twins,

um, they monitor the differences in the weights between the two of them.

Um, and it became pretty apparent pretty quickly that, uh, we had

gone over the allotted discrepancy.

So one baby, um, appeared to be much bigger than the other and so there's

a risk there and, um, the way that my OB explained it was that it's better

for babies to be out of mom's womb at this point and survive, um, in the NICU

than to stay with you and risk that.

So I was induced, um, at 36 weeks, so about a month early, um, and quite

honestly, The worst part of my whole labor was the induction part was that

night before so I went into the hospital Um to be induced and then they sent me

home For that night and said come back in around between six and seven the

next morning and so that was the worst sleep I think of my entire life that

i've ever had and Slept on the couch had a heating pad couldn't get comfortable

turn the tv on like It was just hours of just feeling like really kind of

uncomfortable and crampy and whatnot.

Uh, we went into the um, into the hospital the next day and quite honestly, um,

I was a textbook, um, birthing story.

Um, I had Very little, um, very little pre labor.

I did have an epidural, so once that kind of kicked in, I was like, smooth sailing.

It's like, okay, I can feel this, I'm feeling good.

Um, and almost, you know, I, I am very fortunate.

I know that there are so many stories and birth traumas that are out there.

Um, and I was, I was, Fully expecting worst case scenario.

That's kind of what I went in with and um, the twins they Arrived very well.

We delivered in the or and um, it was almost kind of like This weird calmness

because again, they prepared me that like, you know Baby one comes and if

baby two doesn't come or there's some complications like it can get hectic

and crazy Really fast and there's lots of people and there's lots of stuff.

So I was very much Psychologically and emotionally prepared

for that and going into it.

I was like, okay like, you know, um Ready to experience that.

And then it was just this like weird calmness and I just remember sitting

there with my husband and the team there and we were just laughing.

Like we were literally laughing in the, like baby one had come.

And so, uh, my daughter, Eleanor, she was born first and, um, I was

expecting like, okay, baby two, like, you know, pretty quickly after that.

And it was 45 minutes between the two of them being born and it was, again,

kind of this, like, weird, calm, chatty, like, um, the doctor was making some

jokes and the, um, the anesthetist had come in to check on us and it was

just this, yeah, this kind of, um, almost, like, out of body experience.

And, uh, thankfully my son was then born, uh, Knox, uh, 45 minutes later.

And, um, because they were preemie babies, um, I got to hold both of them for a

very short time period, uh, and then they were both brought into the NICU.

Um, afterwards, my recovery was pretty dicey for a little bit there, um,

I went through some pretty, like, kind of almost like shock symptoms,

I would say, um, in terms of, like, Just like I was like vomiting.

I was like Really hot and cold like kind of hypertensive like just this really

weird feeling and that was something that really quite shocked me because

I did Not expect like afterwards.

I'm like, okay now I go to like my room and I just kind of relax and you know

Wait for them to bring the babies to me And I have no sense of time in terms

of what happened there at the hospital.

Um, but eventually I was brought to go and see my babies and going

into the NICU, that was something that I was not prepared for either.

Um, again, I had, I had held both of my babies, but then.

Going in there, being wheeled in on a wheelchair, um, in kind of,

like Sarah said, this kind of like weird, fuzzy, drugged up state.

And seeing these two tiny, little, like, shriveled potatoes sitting in these,

like, incubation boxes with all of these, you know, lights and beeping and whatnot

going on, it was a little surreal.

And I was like, Those are my babies and similar kind of similar feeling like

that connection was that bonding like, you know, from that point until, you

know, bringing them home and all of that.

It just felt very bizarre to me, um, that, okay, this is my reality.

Now this is what life is like.

And, um, we were very fortunate that, um, our NICU stay, we were there for three

days and then got to bring them home.

Um, which quite honestly, I didn't want to bring them home.

I was like, you're safe here.

I know you're good.

I have all of these nurses helping and, you know, feeding and changing and.

And, you know, all the censors and stuff are telling me that you're, you're good.

Um, when they, when they told us, like, okay, you can go home now.

It was almost like this really intense, like, anxiety, like, holy shit.

I don't think I want to do this.

And, um, but hey, you just kind of have to, have to, they kick you out, right?

You, um, you're not allowed an infinite stay.

And so we got home and I was fortunate.

My husband.

Were

you in there the whole time too, Kristen?

No.

Did you stay in or did you get

discharged and then were coming

back in?

The babies discharged.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I was discharged.

Um, and so that first, the first night I stayed in the hospital.

The second night we got to come home and then go back in.

And then the third night we stayed and like did our test run with the babies.

Um, Where we had to get up and feed them, uh, throughout the

night and they were, like, out of their little, um, incubation boxes.

And, uh, and then the next day, yeah, it was, uh, it was real life.

So, that, uh, Good luck.

Exactly, exactly.

I, I was very fortunate.

Our medical team was incredible and amazing and I just wanted

to, like, package them up and bring them home with me.

Um, the, uh, The recovery period for me, I was pretty thankful that, um, it

was fairly, I think, standard textbook.

Yeah, it was, you know, there were times when I didn't feel great and

whatnot, but, um, myself, it was more the emotional, psychological

side of like, okay, I'm a mom now.

And like, still reminding myself that, hey, these are, these are my babies.

And, and similar to Sarah, like, that connection that, um, That

maternal ness, I didn't feel kick in.

And it kind of started to yeah, kind of sit in my head and be like, I

don't, I don't know if I like this.

I don't, I don't know if I wanna do this.

Can I, can I go back ? Can I, can I return?

Like I don't, I'm not, I'm not really, uh, you know, in it all.

And it was a really.

It was a really difficult summer for me.

Um, so the twins were born in may and throughout that whole summer like it

was really um that grief of my previous life, I didn't anticipate that coming

so Like, becoming so difficult for me.

Um, because I thought, and you know, the advice and what people told me

beforehand was like, Oh yeah, like, you just fit baby into your life.

So you can go out and you can do all these things and you can, you know, you

can garden and you can go out with your friends and you can just, you know, cart

baby along with you wherever you go.

Go to the grocery store.

I was like, yeah, friggin right.

I'm not taking two newborn twins to the grocery store.

Like, as simple as a task as that may have seemed pre baby.

It was monumentous, um, afterwards, and to the fact where it like, it caused me

so much anxiety, and the, I just, I just wanted so desperately to be able to do

some of those things again, um, that it was really difficult for me, um, that

summer, especially because summer, you know, is such a difficult time for me.

Um, yeah.

is the time that I live for.

I, I just, I love it so much and I want to be outside.

And even just, there were days when the only outside time I got was, you

know, standing on our front porch.

And like, that was just, it was so hard to, to kind of feel like myself again.

Um, and I remember I was very fortunate to have the support of our family come, um,

and help look after the twins and my mom was, uh, uh, still to this day comes once

a week to, uh, to help out with the twins and, um, those were the days when I would

just kind of like pile up everything.

Okay, I want to do this, this, this, you know, run errands, do all of that stuff.

And there was one, um, one day that I was like, okay, I'm going to go to the grocery

store and like, you know, Spend some time there and do all that I need and I was

driving home And by our place there is a golf course and um, not that I'm a big

golfer or anything Um, but it's you know, nice to do every once in a while hit some

balls and uh and drink some beers but we I was driving by and I just saw these people

out on the course and like the sense of just like That is so far away from

my reality right now And that all those people out there are enjoying their time.

They're in the sunshine.

They're having fun.

They're with their friends They're socializing like I just felt

such a pit in my stomach that I am stuck being a mom right now.

Um, and that I really had a hard time coming around to that.

So it was, yeah, the

idea that someone would have like two or three hours of

spare time to do a hobby like that in, in that stage of life, right?

Like just seems so, yeah.

Like you said, so far from removed from your reality.

Like, like how do you just golf?

Like, how do you How would you even like the logistics of that?

Like, yeah, like if going to the grocery store feels like a vacation,

something like playing golf is just like, yeah, completely out

of what you can even think about.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And feeling like I felt like.

Like, I've never been a jealous person, but I could feel that kind of like

negative jealousy coming at me like, Oh, how dare you go to the golf course?

Like, I, like, I want to go and do that.

And like, that was just, yeah, just really a feeling and an emotion

that I'd never experienced before and something that I really hadn't

anticipated to come along in that, that motherhood journey that's supposed to

be beautiful and amazing and bonding.

Um, which is, as we all know, total bullshit.

I feel like something...

It's

so hard to think about.

Sorry, go.

Something that gave me the jealousy so bad, and I can only imagine with twins

because it's twice as much, is how much I took for granted things like going to

the library and using two hands to pick out books, or not having to wrestle a

stroller out of the back of the car, or God forbid when they get too big for

the bucket seat, and then you have to take the kid out of the car seat to take

them somewhere, and I mean you've got...

You guys are both nodding because you know exactly what I'm talking about.

You see people just waltzing into Walmart like it's nothing and just

like, looking at their shopping list without their baby actually eating it,

which has literally happened to me.

My child ate an entire sheet of paper one time while we were grocery shopping.

You know, and just that irrational rage that people could just be out with

their Having slept, having showered, you know, having socks that match,

whatever, just out in public using both hands and nobody screaming at them.

And nobody judging them for whether their kid has socks.

Wow.

Well, I'm going to go back to therapy because

this

is obviously just opening a whole can of worms.

Yikes.

I think we don't talk enough about and I don't know.

Yeah, I just was going to say I don't know that we talk enough about and yet

I at times don't know how to talk about what you were just saying, Kristen, about

the, the grief of life you had before.

Because sometimes, now when I go to a baby shower, like, I want to warn the person,

but I don't want to be that person either, to be like, soak it up, because you're

never going to be this person again.

But how do you tell someone?

That you're going to turn into a new person and that

everything is going to change.

You're not, like you said, you're not just having a baby and maybe some babies

fit into your life or that's what we tell ourselves, but I didn't have those babies.

And even the babies that do fit into your life, you're still changing everything

to, to make it look like they fit, right?

And you're, yeah, you're not the same person anymore.

And, and it's.

It's okay to feel sad that you're not that person anymore.

It's okay to grieve that loss and to realize that you aren't going back.

It's kind of the same, you know, like you move on from high school or

you move to a new place and you, you grieve the loss of those other things.

But it's, it's hard to talk about when it's your kid because then,

you know, like we always talk about, Katie, then it sounds like you're

saying, I don't love my child because I'm sad that something has changed.

But those two things can be true at the same time.

Well, and I, I think, too, for myself, I've changed so massively

and in so many amazingly good ways.

I am so much happier with the person I am now.

But the growing pains of getting here, and that it doesn't, like the baby

blues or whatever, it's not like it takes three hours and then everything

is great, you know, like, it takes time.

Right,

it was hard for a few minutes, but now I'm all good.

Yeah.

And no matter how good the end result is, it was still painful to get here, and

that's, you know, and I, I feel like for me too, it was kind of like when you get

married and you stop, you know, like you spend however many of your years looking

for potential partners or, you know, Oh, that boy's cute, whatever, you know,

because you're like 13 and then, and then you get married and suddenly you're never

supposed to look at another human again.

And it's like, even if you don't want another person.

You've been doing it for so long, and I feel like having a baby is

a lot the looking was kind of fun.

Yeah, you're supposed to just drop everything and be

like, I am only a mom now.

That is it.

And if you can't just, like, subsume your entire existence into six

or, like, I guess twelve pounds of twins, then it's because you're

a bad person who is never happy.

You know, it's because you're ungrateful.

And not because you've spent 30 years being a person, just by yourself.

Yeah, I

really do need to go into therapy.

I

completely can appreciate those growing pains, Katie, that you mentioned.

Um, identity, I think, is something that we don't talk about in motherhood.

And, um, And in life in general, like who we are and what we were

just so busy constantly just kind of trying to get to the next thing,

trying to get to the next thing.

That we don't take a step back and say, well, how am I feeling

and how am I doing and, and what is this doing to me right now?

To pause and to say, yeah, maybe I do need to go back to therapy because this was,

Not the experience that I thought it was going to be and that it has impacted You

know me as a human being so drastically And it I guess it doesn't even need to

be drastically either like everybody has their own struggles within um within that

and how they cope with that and identity for me has just been such a a theme

throughout my life, I guess, um, that this whole motherhood, like, I almost resisted

it for a lot and Just kind of like not wanting to admit it that like, yeah, I'm

a mom now But also still wanting to crave that community too because I felt so

isolated And not that the people around me or you know, my family and my friends,

you know They were all so very supportive and wanting to you know, see you thrive

and to help out but Not knowing how to ask for what I needed in that time, too.

Um, because I was just in such a haze and in such a, a sleep deprived state, and,

and hormones, and that that feeling of just kind of feeling out of control, but

still having to function, um, to keep, you know, your, your family going and

these, you know, you're, you're self fed and all of those like essential things.

Um, And the smallest little thing can seem so monumentous to

do, like taking the trash out.

Like, I can remember just, you know, we live in a suburban neighborhood, so our

driveway is like maybe 30 feet long.

But it was like, oh my god, I have to get the garbage out today.

Like, how am I going to do that?

And just feeling so...

Overwhelmed in a sense, and, and not, yeah, not really recognizing

that it's not about the garbage.

It's about everything that's happening in my life right now.

Um, and, and really understanding that what we.

How, how to communicate in those instances, um, you're almost

relearning it again, right?

Because now you're doing it, um, as a, as a mom, um, with all of these

hormones coursing through your body and also, yeah, this identity shift

and you're in a very fragile state because sleep deprivation is no joke,

like that can do some really wonky, fucked up things to your brain that you.

I thought I would be, this sounds ridiculous, I

thought I would be better at.

Delegating things that needed to be done to other people and

communicating what I needed.

And it used to not be difficult for me to delegate, to be like,

Hey, can you do these dishes?

Can you, um, do this?

Can you pick me up some things from the grocery store?

No, I didn't think twice about it.

And then all of a sudden it feels like now that I, Can't do things for myself

instead of it being a quick favor.

It's a burden, you know?

And so I didn't expect that things that used to be easy would be so difficult.

Not like including things like getting the dishes done and the laundry done

and taking out the trash and those sorts of things, but also like.

Setting boundaries and communicating and saying, Hey, I really need whatever, three

hours to go golfing or whatever it is.

I, I used to be good at those things and suddenly I'm not.

And I'm like, afraid to even utter those words, you know?

And so, I don't know if that's hormones or the way that motherhood changes the

weight of things or what that is, but I did not foresee Me having an issue with

those things like I was listening back to our old episode and I had talked about how

I was like already planning on delegating making this person do this and this person

do this and I didn't do any of that like I

Had them

hold the baby and I did all that shit, you know, like it's so funny

to me how Like like just how that was and I think now it's getting better

and I'm finding my voice a little bit Again, but it's just so funny,

like, I did not foresee that happening

at all.

I wonder if some of that is that feeling of, and I think that maybe we're kind of

similar in this way, that the feeling of asking for help from someone when you have

no idea when you'd be able to reciprocate.

It's easier for me to delegate and to ask someone to do something for

me when I think, well, when they have a problem, I can drop off muffins or

I can pick up their kid or whatever.

But when you're in that mode of just surviving yourself, and you're like,

I'm asking somebody to do something for me, and there's no way I could, if they

asked me the same question, I'd have to say no, because I've got nothing left.

Like, I'm completely depleted.

So I wonder if that's a little bit of those, the feeling of

the, the early stages when.

you've just got nothing to give back.

So then you, then you do feel like you're a burden because you're

like, well, I, I can't contribute.

I can't, can't do

it.

I think that might be part of it.

Yeah, because there, there's no reciprocation for those

first several months.

And even now, like, it's kind of shitty reciprocation, and it's

probably going to be half assed.

So sorry about it, you know, but I think that that's a really good point because,

um, Yeah, I, I don't, I don't know.

I think that's a really good point.

One thing I didn't include in our list of, sorry, Katie, I just

wanted to talk about something else.

I was wondering, we hadn't, haven't, I didn't put it in our list of questions,

but one thing that, that ends up taking up a lot of our time in those first few

months is feeding, which is something we didn't talk about, and there's a lot of...

We can, as mothers, put a lot of stress on ourselves about a cold point for a lot

of, uh, a lot of medical and, um, society.

Ladies both willing to talk about how your babies ate in the first

year, or the first six months, which seems to be a critical pressure.

Sarah, do you want to go

first?

Yeah, I can go first.

I ended up breastfeeding, um, Scout for the whole first year and she had, um,

some dairy allergies and then, um, we had really bad shortages in our area.

Um, and I am not, I didn't think that I would breastfeed for the whole

first year, but it ended up being, so it was like 44 for a can of, um,

formula and it was the little can.

So that was like a day, it was like about a day.

A little over a day and a half for 44 and I'm like, I cannot afford this

and she didn't tolerate it super well.

And so I was like, well, I guess I'll just keep breastfeeding, you know, um,

but it was a, it was not an easy journey.

I was a just enough for, I constantly was having to power pump.

I would usually like power pump twice a week just to make sure that my supply

was like staying up enough and it seemed like it would, I would get it.

To where it was good and then it would dip and then I would get it back up

and dip and get it back up and dip and so it was a constant constant battle.

Um, and I had mastitis and clogs and she, um, at four months decided

that toys were more fun than eating.

And so I pretty much, um, pumped during the day.

She would eat at night if it was dark or if it was if it was

just her and I at home alone.

So, Sometimes she would eat, um, but I have a really slow let down.

So then she would get really frustrated.

And so, um, we ended up breastfeeding and struggled through it.

And there was a lot of pumping and dishes involved.

Um, but it was, I didn't envision that for myself, you know?

And so, um, yeah, that's, uh, I'm really glad to be weaned.

So really, really.

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of pressure.

What about you, Kristen, with two babies to

feed?

Yeah, so I, I decided, um, pre delivery that I was going

to formula feed the twins.

Um, I had done a lot of research and talked to a lot of other moms about

their experiences and whatnot, and certainly I, I kind of came at it from

my own mental health standpoint, knowing my own, um, stress levels and whatnot.

And I just, in my mind, I couldn't logistically understand how to feed two

babies and survive at the same time.

And certainly, I know there are women that do it, and that is absolutely incredible.

I am in awe of them.

Um, but for me, I chose to formula feed, uh, pre babies.

Um, Would I have chosen the same thing knowing the struggles that

we had through the last year?

Um, probably not.

Like Sarah said, um, we had extreme shortages in our area and it was so

stressful because I just assumed, oh, you need formula, you go to

the store, you get the formula, you feed the baby, whatever, done.

And And

like we said, going to the store is already

That is so true.

Exactly.

Absolutely.

And so We, we struggled.

Um, we started off the twins, um, on the formula that they had at the hospital,

um, which was a, like a pre mix stuff, so it was great, it was just like ready

feed, um, which was fantastic, and so, um, they, we, as a recommendation from

our, from the, from Public Health, uh, we fed that to them for two, two ish

months, um, before we went to powdered formula, and that stuff is Friggin

expensive like when you find it you we bought it and I can remember going

to walmart over and over again and Talking about asking people for favors.

My number one favor was if you see formula buy it.

I will e transfer you immediately um, and so I had like all of my family, friends,

scouring, looking out, um, on any store.

My mom would go to multiple stores and ask, and then they started to put limits

on, you know, how many you can take.

And it didn't matter that I had two babies to feed.

I was one, I was one parent, and so they would only let me take one, um, container,

which would just, you know, be eaten up within, like, a matter of, Hours, if not

a day, um, so that was extremely stressful and something that I never anticipated.

I don't think any parents did, um, but thankfully we, we were able to still

continue feeding the twins because, um, I, I didn't nurse at all, so my supply like

very quickly, um, dried up, um, and so.

I was like, well, what, how, like, I don't even have an option here.

Um, so, on top of that, having two babies with two different needs,

um, our daughter, she had some very significant reflux issues pretty early on.

And being a first time mom, I had no idea.

I knew babies spit up.

I knew they were fussy.

I knew they cried.

Um, but something just seemed off with Ellie.

Like, she was just not comfortable.

Really, like, Feeding was a challenge for her and afterwards she was always

just so just, yeah, frustrated it seemed.

And, um, so through a series of trial and error and finally, you know, getting, um,

getting to the doctor and talking to them about it, we tried all kinds of different

formulas, uh, to see what fit well with her, her tummy and her reflux and whatnot

and went to go and see a pediatrician.

Thankfully, she wasn't, uh, she didn't have, um, what they would classify as

a cow's milk protein allergy, but she just had a really sensitive stomach.

And so, not only feeding formula to two babies, but feeding two different formulas

to two babies, um, that was, again, a challenge that I didn't anticipate,

and something that brought me so much anxiety, that, like, I would keep, like,

Stock like we would have our stockpile of each formula and down to the day.

I knew how much we had, um, and how much I needed to get.

And so, you know, I tried not to get into that.

Like, um, you know.

fear buying and like stockpiling mode.

But as a parent, when that's your only option to feed your infant,

like you can't help but, but do that.

So whenever we would find it, I, you know, I would try to get as much as I could.

And so, yeah, that was our feeding journey.

I am so thankful.

They're on solid foods now and we are, um, way past that, but.

Certainly, I feel for all the parents out there right now who, who do and are

continuing to experience these shortages because you are literally have no control.

Seems

like a basic, and it is, it's a basic need this.

Yeah, it's been such a wild time for anyone who is, yeah, like you

said, it seems this is something that our infants need to survive

and that that was not available.

When people needed it, it was such a, such a scary situation, and I don't

think that there were so many people who, I mean, if you're not in it,

you didn't have to think about it, or it wasn't even on the radar, right?

Like, it, yeah, you didn't have someone in your life who was feeding, it was

in the news once in a while, but if you weren't in the mom and baby groups on,

you know, on social media, baby during that time, probably lots of people didn't

even know it was an issue, but it was such a huge thing for so many people.

Mm hmm.

So, in both of your original episodes, we ended up talking

about stress and mental health.

So, Sarah, you talked a bit about the course of the past year, the

first few weeks, but how do you feel like your mental health and your

stress level has been kind of over?

So,

overall, I think it's been pretty good.

I have Um, a lot of help, you know, and so that helps too.

Um, Scout goes to my mom's once a week and Zach's mom's once a week, so

I have enough time to get some self care in and run my errands and do a

few fun things and stuff like that.

And I'm good about, like, carving out minutes during nap time and after

bedtime and stuff like that to make sure that I'm like, um, doing the

things I need to do to fill my cup.

I'm a big person, like I need.

some quiet time.

I need some me time.

And so just knowing that I have to prioritize that I think has helped.

Um, and so also I went to therapy and that helped a ton to just

like have somebody to talk to.

And I feel like there's so much judgment in parenthood.

Like, I don't, I just need to get this stuff off of my chest.

I really can't have a friend or a family member being like, well, Why don't you

just or why isn't this happening or whatever like I don't have time for

that shit and also I can't tell somebody something and then like Fear that they're

gonna bring it up again against me.

You know what I mean?

And so I was like, okay therapy it is which has been great and I've done

therapy lots and lots and lots of times And so I just, I think I did it for like

two months and it was great just to get some stuff off of my shoulders, off of

my chest, and there's a ton of other stuff happening with family right now.

And, um, so I think that that has helped tremendously.

I'm just, mental health is always just a slow roll for me.

Like, something I have to stay up on.

It's something that has to be a priority.

Um, or else.

Things get out of control really quickly, both with depression and anxiety.

And so I think that, um, I have after the first little bit.

So, so the first two weeks were really hard and then things got pretty easy.

And then the four months sleep regression wrecked my world.

Um, and then that lasted for a long time in that.

So at the four months sleep regression.

was when I went back to work, which was a clusterfuck beyond imaginable.

And then we went into the field.

So then we were super busy and I was like, well, I can't really like, like

I knew I needed to sleep train her.

I knew that, that for, I wanted to do Ferber.

I knew that she's a kid who needed that and not that everybody does.

And I know there's lots of opinions on that and that's fantastic.

I needed that and she needed that, but also how can you sleep train a kid when

they're sleeping in a tractor three naps a day and bedtime isn't consistent?

Wake time isn't consistent, you know, so I felt like I had to

wait till after harvest was over.

So I ended up sleep training or closer to six months, um, which was a saving grace.

It was, oh my gosh, I, if you have a kid who's not a good sleeper.

Ferber it up, baby.

Like, it, it, it was a lifesaver for us.

Literally a lifesaver.

Um, and so I counted one day.

I was, I, in one day, I spent seven and a half hours trying

to get her to fall asleep.

In one day.

And I was like, This is why I'm crazy!

Right?

You know?

Um, and so.

Exactly.

You can't, you can't.

Oh, and you're working full time right now, you know, so, um, that was insane.

And so, um, after so kind of the first couple of weeks were tough and

then it got easier and then four to six months was rocky and I blocked

most of that out of my memory.

I don't remember a lot of it.

I know that going back to work was really rough.

I know the harvest was really rough.

I know that I was waking up a lot and then Ferber came along and things

have been smooth sailing since then.

Not that she hasn't regressed or we haven't done little

resets or things like that.

But, um, that has.

Sleep makes the world, world of difference.

And when you have sleep, then other things fall into place, you know?

And so, um, that has made, I think, the biggest difference for me.

So, just knowing that I need to prioritize that and stuff has been really key.

And my husband has a lot of health issues.

So, part of it also is like, he can't really have not a lot of sleep either.

You know what I mean?

And so...

Um, there's a tremendous amount of like, uh, like, like saying they

like, why doesn't your husband get up

with them?

Like,

I don't have time for that.

He doesn't have time for that.

That I'd still have to get up and pump, like

shut up.

You know what I mean?

And not that he's not helpful and not that he not that men shouldn't

get up at night with their babies, but in our situation, it just.

That would have been way more difficult for you know, so anyway, I think that

um overall we're doing good now We're we we hit our stride after six months And I

also think that like there's something to be said when babies can reciprocate love

You know what I mean and for so long.

They're just like Sitting there like a bump on a log and then they can hug

you and run up to you and say mama and like that Warms your heart there is

there is something to be said for that in terms of like not only filling your

cup But just like that human connection, you know, and so I feel like now that

we're in that stage It's so much easier than it was in the first little bit.

Yeah,

that all makes a lot of sense I know with the the dad Waking up with

the babies, like I breastfed all of mine for the year and sometimes a little bit

more and it was like, so if he gets up, then the baby screams harder because they

just want to eat and I had to probably wake him up to go and say, could you

go and see if you can get the baby?

Also, I'm going to have to

wake him up three or four times for him to actually get his ass out of bed.

So then I'm going to be mad, he's going to be mad, the baby's mad, and

now I have to pump and do dishes.

And, yeah.

This is so helpful, yeah, for everyone.

Well, and as with, as someone with two littles close in age, and I'm sure

Kristen's in the same spot, that if one wakes up and then you have to wake your

husband up three times, then the other kid is up, the dogs are up, the cats are

up, neighbors five miles away are up.

And then I'm pissed at my husband, and the baby, and myself.

And the universe, and it, not being able to, yeah, everything, like it's easier,

and it's really easy to fall back asleep,

and after all, that's what I was just going

to say, and when I'm that mad,

falling back asleep is not really an option.

Now I've got to fight with my

husband for an hour.

I mean, it's just not worth it.

Even if he's gone back to sleep, I'm fighting in my head.

Your field of.

Education and expertise is also in mental health.

Do you think that impacted you differently, kind of

knowing what to expect?

Yeah, now I'm googling

divorce lawyers.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Googling that.

So, Kristen, are you willing to talk a little bit?

I mean, I know you're, did that impact at all how you felt about your stress level

and your mental health over the last year?

I would say yes and no.

Um, and in a sense, my, my mental health journey postpartum,

um, was really up and down.

And, um, I certainly had some seasons and some time sprints

that were easier than others.

And so with, um, with me being, I was still, uh, trying to complete my

master's, uh, when the twins arrived.

So, What we had planned was that I would take a four month maternity leave.

Um, and, uh, And, uh, focus on the kids for those four months.

And then we were very thankful that, um, my husband's work has parental leave.

And so he would take the following four months, I would finish up school, um, and

then we would figure it out from there.

Which did go to plan, um, in some ways and not in others.

And so those first four months, um, of me, Uh, kind of being the primary

parent, uh, during the day and my husband does work at home as well, which a

lot of people are like, Oh, that must be so great and so nice, which it's

great to have an extra set of hands, but also knowing that he has other,

he's there, but he can't always help.

Uh, he hears the screams, but he can't always grab a baby, uh, cause

he's in a meeting or he's, you know, running to, uh, to do the next thing.

And so, um, that was that those first four months, um, you

know, it was just a lot of.

Trying to unders like, to figure out motherhood on my own, and I really

struggled with being that kind of self critical person and, you know, thinking

about, like, well, why isn't this going the way that I think it should be going?

And why are they doing this?

And why?

Like, I was always questioning, well, why is this happening?

And why is this?

And so many times people would be like, well, they're just a baby.

That's what happens.

And to me, that was not a good enough answer I needed to know.

To know which now thinking about it.

It's like well there that is the only answer really Um, but for me in that

that mindset that I was in Um, it was just so all encompassing, well

why aren't these sleeping and why are they crying and what is going on

and why aren't they eating right now?

And I always just had to like, you know, really, I had kind of this

like tight feeling around like I need to control everything, um,

because I want it to go this way.

And we would hit a good day and it'd be like, oh, awesome!

Finally we're hitting our stride.

We're doing great.

And then the next day would absolutely go to shit Like there was no question

about it And I don't know if it was just like the cadence of our days or whatnot

But mondays for us were like absolute shit shows I was just kind of like every

monday and I came to a point where like I would almost like Feel that tension and

anxiety leading up to a monday and being like, oh my god, this is horrible Like

i'm i'm not working so I don't have that like work stress of uh of a monday But

for some reason the kids were just like a nightmare that day and I was just like

absolutely spent at the end of the day So we, you know, kind of, we get through the

summer, we get to the fall and I'm like, okay, great, awesome, I'm going to get

back to school, I'm going to, you know, focus on that, and Tony's going to be,

you know, taking care of the kids, and that'll be awesome because I don't have to

do any of that, and we start transitioning through the fall and it's just like, I

had such a hard time letting go after being the primary parent, um, and And it

kind of created a little bit of tension between us, I would say, um, because

he Seeing it now from his perspective.

He was like, well, why don't you trust me to take care of our kids?

He's like I'm the dad like I have the time I can this is what I'm supposed to

be doing And I was just kind of like well Have you you know when the if the I was

in my office, you know doing stuff and I could hear the kids in In the house for

instance, and I was just like I would come out and be like, oh, have you tried this?

Or what about that or you know has have you changed their diaper?

Have they had a poop today like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and I

would just like start like ranting and going off and he's just like He would

look at it and be like, you, you know, like, I, I don't have the confidence

in him as a parent and it wasn't that.

It was like my own.

I was like, why aren't these kids like, why aren't they acting how we, we, we

think they should be acting and how, how I want them to be and controlling them.

And so that was, um.

That was right around, like, the fall, the four month mark, and so we certainly

went through the hellish four, four month sleep regression too, and with

two babies, like, oh my god, like, it was, we went right into sleep training.

As soon as I felt like they were ready for it, we firboarded up, and it, also, Sarah,

yeah, like, I can't, I don't think I would be, um, a functioning human without that.

Uh, we sleep trained the babies, and they, they both were, Um,

had the right personality for that and we, we got through that.

Um, but then we kind of got into this phase where the kids were

sleeping and things were going well.

Um, and then I started to have, um, some personal challenges,

uh, with my mental health.

And it was, you know, looking back at it now, it's easy to look back and see all

the red flags and the signs and whatnot.

Um, but in the moment I.

Really was having a hard time, um, with a lot of my personal anxiety issues, um,

that I had struggled with pre partum and like, you know, before becoming a mom.

Um, but this was at a level that I wasn't, um, I hadn't really experienced before.

And so, I was really struggling, um, with kind of racing thoughts and

ruminating thoughts and not really being able to shut my brain off.

Um, and, you know, that's, I think most moms can attest to

kind of feeling that a lot.

Your brain just like, you know, clicks on and it's always popping

off about to do lists and this and that and on the farm and whatnot.

Um, but for me it was, to a point where it was really starting to affect

my sleep and I was not sleeping.

Um, but the babies were sleeping, which then frustrated me because

I was like, why can't I sleep?

My kids are sleeping.

I finally got to this stage.

What is wrong with me?

Why am I not sleeping?

You know, what's going on with me?

And it was just kind of like, start to cycle.

And this really, um, I would say went on for about six months, um, where I was on

again, off again, um, mostly not sleeping through the night, um, just really having,

and the, the rest that I did have wasn't, um, you know, restorative and good for me.

So then the days were hard, um, and I was trying to finish school and

also be a mom on the side and be a partner and, you know, do some self

care for myself because I knew.

Um, you know, being in mental health and, and studying it and knowing all the good

things that I should be doing for myself.

I knew what I should be doing, but I did not have the capacity

to be able to do that for myself.

Um, which was also a frustration for me because I'm like, why can't I do this?

I know this would help me if I could get to it or if I could find the time or if I

could find, you know, quiet myself down.

long enough to just be able to do that, to, you know, to go for a walk

or to, um, to, you know, eat a healthy meal or something along those lines.

Um, so for me, um, those, the red flag really was like my sleep.

That was something that I, I can't function without sleep.

I've always been the type of person that I need my eight hours.

Otherwise I just can't get through the day.

And so, you know, after months of experiencing this, I was like, okay,

I need, I need to do something.

This can't go on.

This is not sustainable.

This is not good for anyone, including.

myself the most.

And so, um, I met with my, my doctor, my GP, um, who, at first,

we started with a sleeping pill, um, just because I was like, that

at least will give me some rest.

And so, after, um, about a couple months of, um, of using that, which was kind of

working here and there, but then I would go through going a really difficult, you

know, just kind of worrying anxiety spell, um, then the sleeping pill wouldn't work.

I would wake up, um, I would go to bed, have no problem falling asleep because

I was exhausted throughout the day.

Like, you know, just dealing with the kids and all of the just life stuff

every day, um, at the end of the day.

I was exhausted, so falling asleep was not an issue for me.

It was staying asleep, and so I would wake up multiple times throughout

the night and again, not be restful.

I would move to the spare room, I would go to the couch, I would turn the TV on.

I would, you know, try to read a book.

I would listen to a sleep meditation, like all over the things.

I would just kind of like go through and eventually, At some point, I would sort of

doze off, but then by that point, it was time to wake up and feed the kids again.

And so, um, the sleeping pill kind of helped for a little bit, but

then, um, it wasn't really a, a a sustainable long term option for me.

And so I was like, okay, well, what's next?

What can I be doing?

And so throughout that process, I did, um, I was, I was journaling.

I was trying to do regular meditations and some of that stuff

was, was helping, um, and was.

Um, you know, good for me.

Um, but it still wasn't getting to the point where I knew I needed to be.

Um, in terms of like, healthy me and like, really showing up as my full self.

And so, I went back to my doctor again and I said, Look, um,

you know, this isn't working.

And I should also add as well that I did

Um, and so that was something also that I, I knew I needed to do for my

self care, um, and thankfully with my mom, she would come once a week.

So I knew I would have, you know, an hour every Thursday that I could talk to my

therapist, similar to like what Sarah said, and just kind of like unload and,

um, And this was something, you know, the, the postpartum anxiety was something that

I, um, I spoke with her quite a lot about.

Um, and so once I got to that point where the sleeping pill wasn't really working,

I knew I needed something else, I, I had kind of struggled with the idea of

turning to um, an anti anxiety medication.

Um, and For me, I know, um, being in the field of mental health,

all of the good things that can come with taking medication.

Um, and that it is something that I encourage others, that if it is something

that you want to consider for your mental health, I encourage people and I know

that they can be very valuable, uh, tools for people to use in coordination with.

a lot of other self care practices, and so when it came for time for me to consider

that for myself, I had a hard time just kind of processing that and being

like, well, why do I need medication?

I should know better.

I should know how to, you know, get myself healthy again, um,

without the help of this, and so.

So, through a lot of talking with my therapist about this, and um, one of the

things that really kind of clicked for me, um, was she, she enlightened me and said,

you know, you're, you're taking a sleeping pill every day, so how different is it

than taking an anti anxiety medication?

She's like, the sleeping pill's not working for you, but you still take, like,

but you're still, you know, using it.

Why, what's your hesitation in taking, um, taking a different form of medication?

And so, So, that kind of shifted my mindset a little bit to say, yeah, you

know what, why, why do I, um, have this kind of internal bias, um, and the, this

thought pattern, and so I, I took some time to really sort of understand my,

my internal hesitation around that, um, and ultimately came to the decision that

it was time for me to consider and start taking, um, an anti anxiety medication,

and I knew that It is a process to kind of get yourself on to, um, the, the right

medication for you at the right dosage.

So there's many different options and there's different side effects that you

do need to, uh, consider and understand.

Um, and how your body reacts to that.

Um, it can be a bit of a trial and error process.

So I was a little...

Kind of concerned about that, being like, I know I'm gonna feel

like crap for about two weeks, um, while I take this new medication.

Um, and I was almost, I think, worried that I would get worse, that I, but I

was already in such a bad state of, like, no sleep and, um, you know, very little

patience for everything in life that anything was gonna be better than this.

And so, um, I started taking my medication, um, that the doctor

prescribed to me and, um, it was honestly the best decision that I've

made for myself in the last year.

And it is something that I never thought I would need or

never thought I would consider.

Um, because I do work in mental health and I do have good self care practices and I

know what I need to be doing for myself.

But as a new mom with two young babies that have so many needs and we always put

everybody before ourselves, those things, it almost seemed to me like I could...

see everything that I needed to do.

It was behind a glass wall and I could not access it.

And now having my medication, um, I can open up that glass wall and

I can access everything again.

And I am so thankful that I am sleeping, that I am healthy, that I am able to, you

know, start new things like a new job.

Um, be a functioning parent, um, and be a partner to my husband

that's not, you know, completely at my wits end all the time.

So that's really been my mental health journey over the last year and it's been

extremely eye opening, very challenging, um, but I'm really happy to say that

I am in a healthy place right now.

Thank you for sharing that with us.

I think it's really important to recognize that even Someone who knows

as much about mental health as you do, that you still had that bias

even kind of against yourself, right?

Like, that it was, it was fine for, for other people, but you

know, I'll be okay without it.

But, but yeah, it's interesting to know that even that.

That lots of people can, you can, we can all talk about mental health, but,

but sometimes it's harder to, to self reflect and realize that, that the help

that we think other people can access, we also need to be kind to ourselves

and, and do the same things for us.

All right.

So Arlene, I'm going to steal your question.

Um, Sarah, one of the big surprises that I had as a new parent was how hard it

was on my body to care for an infant.

Um, you know, I ended up with tendinitis in both knees from standing up from

the couch while holding a baby post C section, like, just that sort of random.

Ended up with tennis elbow from carrying around a huge baby, and then ended

up with tennis elbow in both elbows from carrying around two huge babies.

Um, so knowing that your background is in exercise physiology, how have you...

dealt with this bullshit.

Did anybody warn anybody about any of this?

Cause, I feel like, this seems to be a common thing, but nobody

ever seems to be warned about anything to do with my body other than

taking care of your hoo ha after you tear.

That's, that's all there was.

Yeah.

Like, oh yeah, don't use toilet paper.

Good luck.

You

know, and so I think that, um, uh, You had said in our first episode

that there are so many repetitive motion injuries from carrying around babies and

stuff like that and that was the first time I'd really ever heard anything.

I know that like, Oh, your back can hurt if you carry them around too much.

And, of course, my pregnant self was like, Well, I'm gonna teach my kid to

be content on their own, so I don't have to carry them around too much.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Yeah, like shit.

How's that working out for you, Sarah?

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

It worked out

real good.

So, I think that in the first, um, Like, little bit.

Super, super post C section.

I was like, okay, I need to make sure that my pelvic floor is, um, is strengthening.

That my, I had a pretty severe diastasis recti.

So, like, I was making sure that I was doing my, um, you know, my, uh, dead bugs

and my clamshells and all that stuff.

And I had a little bit of pubic symphysis issues.

So, I was doing my exercises and making sure that my body was getting

back to where I was able to...

Walk around and carry a baby and get up and down off the floor and

um, you know, not shit my pants in Home Depot but I think that

It sounds like an oddly specific

So,

okay.

I did not shit my pants in Home Depot and I really debated on making this

a tick tock But I feel like this is a safer place than tick tock.

So I'm gonna I'm gonna say it here Okay, so there are

few things that men will never

have to deal with.