Sustainable Visibility with Mai-kee Tsang

Artwork for podcast Deeply Rested: Anti-Capitalist Conversations for Entrepreneurs

Episode 19 • 15th January 2025 • Deeply Rested: Anti-Capitalist Conversations for Entrepreneurs • Maegan Megginson

Maegan

Welcome back to the Deeply Rested Podcast. Today we're talking about almost nobody's favorite topic, marketing. Whether you're writing blog posts, recording podcast interviews, or attending networking events, allowing yourself to be seen is essential for any small business owner. But for many entrepreneurs, the fear of being seen prevents you from spreading the word about your incredible business.

From the fear of rejection, to the fear of burning out, we avoid visibility while feeling guilty we're not doing more to market our services. Mai-kee Tsang, the Sustainable Visibility Mentor, is here to share her wisdom about overcoming fears and avoiding burnout using her Sustainable Visibility Method.

Mai-kee is an ICF certified trauma conscious leadership coach who helps human first business owners get heard and hired for their work in the world. With the power of sustainable visibility, Mai-kee will help you show up consistently in your business, not constantly, without compromising your capacity, boundaries, or bottom line in the process.

We originally recorded this conversation for my fundraising event, The Rest and Success Code. And I am so excited to be sharing it with you again today. So take a deep breath and enjoy this conversation with Mai-kee Tsang.

Hello, Mai-kee, welcome.

Mai-kee

Hey, again, thanks so much for having me, such an honor to be here for season three.

Maegan

Oh my gosh, it is such an honor to have you here. You and I have connected before. You came into one of my coaching communities and gave a beautiful workshop. And it was so beautiful that I knew I had to have you on the series to talk about Sustainable Visibility with the masses. And before we dive into this conversation, I want to give our listeners a little bit of context because you and I are, we're very similar. And we share a lot of similarities with the people listening into this series as well, in that we are both highly sensitive, and highly ambitious, which means we have big dreams, but like a very limited energetic capacity to realize those dreams. And I love so much that you have created a business that caters specifically to people like us around themes of visibility and marketing and being seen, and doing so with like, consent practices. It's everything that you do Mai-kee speaks to me on such a deep level. And I am really honored to have you here today to share your wisdom with us about sustainable visibility.

Mai-kee

Well, thanks so much for saying all of that, because I think oftentimes, our own ICA, you know, our ideal customer avatar is often a past version of ourselves, you know?

Maegan

100%.

Mai-kee

And when you find that the majority of what you see, quote unquote, out there is catered for people who don't have the same circumstances, identities or lived experiences as you it can, we can often feel a lot of pressure to kind of like chase and try to like follow along and run after those because you don't see anything else. And so those, it's normally situations like that when I find myself thinking, Well, if it's not created yet, or at least not in a way that I want. I'll create it then. You know, why am I waiting for someone else to do it? And I'm so glad that this work has really spoken to you because you know how sometimes we can be so in our heads and wondering, is anything I'm doing making a difference? So for you to actually say that back to me, it really means a lot. So thank you.

Maegan

You're so welcome. And you you said several things right there. We could spend this whole interview talking about understanding that the people you want to serve are often a version of past parts of you, and that you don't have to wait. You don't have to wait for someone else to create the thing that you want. You can create it yourself. I think that is such an important lesson. Now before we dive deep into the sustainability conversation, I want to talk out visibility, I want to talk about what you mean by the word visible. And specifically, when you talk about visibility, what strategies are you referring to?

Mai-kee

So that's such a good question that kind of like breaks into little branches on which which branch do I kind of like target. Because when I think of its visibility, I personally do not synonymize with it with the word exposure, because when I hear the word exposure, which is often positioned as a good thing, when I've been approached before, it's like, oh, you're gonna get this much exposure. And it's normally a numbers game. It's not like, oh, we have x amount of listeners or X amount of subscribers, you will have exposure to all of these people. And I never love that word, because it reminds me of when I used to read tabloid magazines when I was teenager. And it would always be like exposed celebrity X doing this or that, oh, my gosh, they're going to a supermarket like a normal human. And there would always be paparazzi pictures of them being caught off guard. And so I've never personally loved that feeling of exposure. Instead, when I think of visibility, I think about being seen with your own consent,

Maegan

Being seen with your own consent. Okay, that's really important visibility, I'm gonna repeat it again, visibility is being seen with your own consent. So when we talk about visibility today in this interview, and we're talking specifically to entrepreneurs, small business owners, service providers, however you identify yourself, when we talk about visibility, we are talking about anything that you do to allow yourself to be seen, hopefully, by your target market, your ideal clients, but it's the things you're doing to be seen, consensually. You are choosing to show up and to reveal yourself in a particular way, give us some examples of ways that your clients like to show up and be seen with consent.

Mai-kee

What I find is the biggest difference is that whenever they do show up, it's intentional. It's not forceful, or or pressurized, or for the sake of it. And, and the, the word intentional has been used over and over and over again, by my very respected peers. And my, my clients, they told me, you don't show up, quote, unquote, consistently, and what they mean by that is like, you're not always showing up constantly. I'm not on videos every day, I'm not releasing public, not public, podcast episodes every day, and I'm not writing every day. But whenever I do, they can tell that there's been so much thought that's gone into it, a lot of intention. And so that's what makes them stick. And something like a wonderful piece of feedback I've received from quite a few of my community members is that they, they don't even read my subject lines, sometimes my emails, they just open it or save it, they some of them told me, Hey, we, I have a specific folder, of just your emails, so that I can save them and read them later. And it's because of that trust that was developed over the course of time, because anytime I was visible, it was with so much intention and thought that they feel that and they're okay, not being bombarded with things from me every single day, because they know whenever I do show up, it counts.

Maegan

Right? It doesn't feel like a bombardment when we are hungry to receive.

Mai-kee

Exactly, yeah. And we need to remember that like, yes, of course, it's important to stay top of mind. But frequency doesn't have to be the only way that we do that.

Maegan

Mm hmm.

Mai-kee

You know, it can be intention instead.

Maegan

Right? I love that. Yes, it because frequency in so many ways is arbitrary. Okay, I'm going to do three Instagram reels and one email newsletter and two blog posts and one podcast episode. It's arbitrary, they're numbers that you're making up. But when you're really bringing deep intention to the way that you are being seen and connecting with your audience, your audience can feel it, they can feel that this was an intentional stepping into the spotlight and not just a- I should, you know, I should do this. We can feel the difference. I think that's why people put your emails in a folder because they know oh, this is coming, this is coming from a deep, intentional place. You're sharing right now casually, so many different ways people can be visible and I want us to name them explicitly so that people can really start to imagine into the different ways that one can show up to be visible. You mentioned recording videos for social media, writing email newsletters, recording your own podcast or being a guest on someone else's podcast, getting quoted in media articles. These are all ways that we can show up to be visible. Any other common examples coming to mind for you ways that people can be visible?

Mai-kee

Though, I do want to say that, again, in my opinion, and I've been talking about Sustainable Visibility for three years now at the time of this recording, and like this conversation is still seems so new. And I'm like, not new, at least not to me anyway. But one thing I do want to emphasize as well that being seen doesn't have to be in a group setting, it can actually be on on one on one setting as well, which can probably give a huge sigh of relief for those of you thinking that you have to be on all these like, in real life or digital stages. Like, don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for that. But not all of us have the capacity to sustain that level of visibility for the long term. So in between, it's about finding those pockets, those places where you can again, show up and be very intentional with the things that you're speaking about. And so one way that I do this, in my own business, is, this is a practice I've been doing for nearly four years now at the time of this recording. And actually, when this interview gets released, it would reach the four year anniversary of...

Maegan

Yeah, happy anniversary,

Mai-kee

Thank you. I don't want to call it a strategy. But because it wasn't ever intended to be. So what I do every single month is I set aside just one hour, and I split it into three 20 minute calls, I send an invitation out to my email list, at complete random, every single month. It's never at the same time, it's never on the same day of the week, or it's never the same week of the month, either. It's at complete random. And those calls are simply to connect. There's no hidden sales call, there's no market research agenda. There's no, it's not a brain picking session is literally just to connect. And over the course of time, I've personally connected with over like, nearly 150 of my personal community members, like really deep conversations. And it's the way that I have sustained, being connected, honoring my capacity. And I found that it's become almost like a little game for for my community because it's almost like a little race for those on my email list that like oh, you know, are there any spots left? I just didn't want out yesterday, and all three got booked within 11 minutes. And the fastest record has been three minutes. That's the reason why I'm sharing this with you is because I am being visible to these, these individuals like one at a time that they're really deep connections. And you might want to remind yourself as well that you don't have to reach every single person, by yourself, you can actually reach people by having deep relationships. And when they talk about you, your report of impact spreads like that. So it's like depth over breadth. And I've always been visible like that. And another example would be actually what happened between us when we first connected, you invited me into your space. So doing guest workshops in private communities. That is one of my favorite ways to be visible as well, because there's a lot more intimate. And when there's intimacy, it's often a beautiful space to deepen a relationship because of the amount of trust that's already present.

Maegan

Yeah. I love this. This is actually you call them your monthly cuppas, don't you?

Mai-kee

Cuppa catch ups? Yeah. Cuppa catch ups.

Maegan

Yeah. So, so cute. And that's actually I don't think I told you this. It's, it's how I became aware of you because one of my coaching clients told what, you know, came to me one day and was like, Oh, I'm so excited. I got a cuppa catch up with Mai-kee. And I was like, who's Mai-keemaking and what's a cuppa catch up? I had no idea. And, and she told me about you. And I think she had found you through your podcast, she had been on your email list. And she had wanted to grab one of these connections sessions with you for a long time. And she finally got it. And she was so, so happy. And she was telling me more about you and the work that you do. I was like, I just need to I need to know this person and who this person is. I reached out, we connected you came into my community. Now you're here on The Rest & Success Code . So this really is a testament to depth over breadth, right that you went deep with one person and then that one person told me about you and now you are here and what? My mind is blown. It's just a really, it speaks to the magic that happens when we show up intentionally. And when we allow ourselves not just to be seen, like jazz hands. Look at me. I'm you know, I'm smart. I'm fancy. I'm shiny. But we allow ourselves to be known and we allow ourselves to be in community and in relationship with the people that are in our audience. It's like that's where the magic really happens for me in this work.

Okay, wonderful examples of So many different ways that you can be visible. And really what I'm taking away is that you can be visible in any way that feels good to you. And probably, you know, most people with really thriving businesses find ways to be visible in many different places. So there's one on one visibility, there's visi- there's coming and speaking in other people's audiences, there's writing emails to your newsletter list, there are so many different ways of being seen, we do have to be seen, if we want our businesses to thrive, we need our people to know that we exist. And then when we pull those people into our worlds, we need to nurture those relationships in really meaningful and intentional ways exactly as you're describing. And yet may case so many people, especially sensitive entrepreneurs, are really afraid of visibility. I want to hear your thoughts on why people have so much resistance to marketing visibility, nurturing their audience, what's up with that?

Mai-kee

Oh, this could be so many different reasons. And the first two things that come up for me is safety. And fear of being cancelled or fear of any sort of public rejection, I guess I should say, that there's, there's so many words that I can use to spin on this. But there's a big fear of getting things wrong in the public eye. And there's a genuine sense of safety that may not be honored. I mean, to be honest with you, the whole reason why I started talking about Sustainable Visibility in the first place, was because my own safety was compromised when I was listening to someone else's advice, who didn't take into account the lenses that I had. And it was also because I didn't do- I know, I know now when I'm looking in retrospect that I should have listened to my instincts, instead of simply taking someone else's word over my own nervous system, you know? And what had happened was that I was visible in a space that wasn't nurtured for me, or it wasn't the most aligned space, let's just say. And unfortunately, it attracted people to me, that sent me a flurry of inappropriate sexual messages in my DMs, and that really reactivated a trauma wound that was still fairly fresh at that time. And it made me, I could, you know, it made me want to like shrink and hide under a rock and never to be seen again, because that really threatened my own sense of physical, psychological safety. And that's what's made me very conscious about not revealing identifying information of my location, or, you know, sharing faces of my family- that is all been stemmed from this particular incident that happened, let's just say, I think about three or four years ago, now. And so safety is a very genuine reason, you know, for having resistance to being visible, because unless we centralize our safety, and I don't, I'm not equating safety with being small, by the way, I think that's a myth. When people say, Oh, you're playing it safe. And I'm like, Yeah, damn, right. I'm wondering my own nervous system. Then, I personally think you can expand your, your safety zone, the more and more that you do it with your own consent. Again, you know that this feels good. I'm willing to expand here, but I'm not going to force myself to do something if it's at that cost, right, you know?

Maegan

Yes, safety, people are afraid of being visible because they can feel intuitively that their sense of safety is compromised, for whatever reason. It doesn't even matter what the reason is, if you feel unsafe being seen, you are really going to struggle with visibility activities or marketing activities for your business. So safety is one thing that holds people back from from being seen. Talk a little bit more now about this fear of rejection, fear of being canceled.

Mai-kee

There are some folks in my particular community that may have something called, I think it's rejection sensitivity. I can't remember what the third word is, oh, dysphoria, yes, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, I think it's a part of their neuro divergence. And so something anytime they feel a sense of rejection, it is naturally amplified because of the lens that they have. And it's not necessarily something that they, you know, they don't choose to have it. It's just it's just how they see the world how they interpret information. But for even for those without rejection sensitivity dysphoria, it can feel very personal again, especially for sensitive souls. Like I'm not entirely sure or if I identify with having it, but I've always been a sensitive person, and it was always used and weaponized kind of against me.

But, and it can really take a toll on somebody, when when they have that sense, you know, they question themselves, they question their actions, their words. And not everybody can get straight back up right away. And like, you know, keep moving forward, it takes time to really articulate all of those emotions and navigate, you know what to do next. And so it can often feel like a very unsafe place, and a very unforgiving place to make mistakes in public. And so that's why I think underneath all of this, it's so important to show up in spaces that feel incredibly aligned to you where you feel like you have matching values with someone who you're collaborating with. So when I get invitations to speak, you know, on summits, or a podcast or something, and I don't know who they are, I have to do my due diligence. Sometimes I see if we have any mutual connections. And I will actually do something called a safety check. This is something that one of my peers taught me when she did a safety check, asking me about particular someone that we both knew. And, and I did one to one of my other friends, asking about a certain person, just to kind of like, you know, lay of the land. And and we're always so respectful of the fact that we're not asking you to out this person. It's just like, what's your experience been like to whichever degree you're open to sharing?

And so what happened with my most recent safety check? They were like, they were actually pretty nice when I connected with them. But of course you do you. So I reached out to this person, asking if they were open to jumping on and get to know you kind of chat just to kind of make sure that we're on the same page with just the kind of conversation that they were intending for us to have on his podcast. And when I got to know him, I was like, oh, we're actually, yeah, we're wonderful, like potential for friendship here, like we got along straight away, which is wonderful. But I wouldn't have known that had I not done a safety check. So being very mindful of who you associate yourself with, and who you're choosing to collaborate with, that can really help on the safety part. And it will very likely reduce the potential of rejection, because the space that you're about to enter is ready for your ideas.

Maegan

I want to yeah, I would love to just go a little bit deeper into this idea of the safety check. Can you like have you operationalized this in your mind? Is it like the safety check is like, three, I do these three things to, you know, kind of check in, create connection and make sure it's a safe place for me to show up? Or is it something that's a little more nebulous in process?

Mai-kee

I would say it's case by case. So to do you know, for full transparency, I've only had one peer of mine asked me to do a safety check. And I've only done one like, to you ask a peer to do a safety check with me. So I've only done this, like, I've received it once and I've done it once.

Maegan

Okay, it's new.

Mai-kee

Yeah, it's fairly new, but it's a great practice in my back pocket, should I ever feel the need to because of course, I can 100% do my due diligence, right? And I do, of course, I don't just like, leave it to my peer to like, tell me. And I don't just like trust their word for it, not because they're not trustworthy, but because their experiences can very well vary from mine. And so it's just kind of like, another layer. Yeah.

Maegan

So you. So you, let's, I want to, I want to make sure I understand this, and here's why I want to go deeper into this. I think this is a really interesting idea. I think that since COVID, when everybody went virtual, it suddenly became very hard to have actual conversations with other people. You know, it's people are busy, I totally get it. But it has made creating one on one connections with people you want to collaborate with, people you want to support, people you want to get to know, maybe refer clients to, it's made it really quite challenging. And the expectation, especially in the online space is often that you say yes to things without ever having met the person first. So you say yes, and then the very first time you meet them is when you show up to do the interview, or, you know, or the expectation is that you refer people their way before you ever have a conversation with them. And I do think that's, while it requires less time from everyone, which is nice, it actually increases the likelihood that we partner with people who aren't aligned with our values, or we walk into situations that do compromise our safety. So I'm really intrigued right now make a by this idea of a safety check. So let's say you, there's somebody's podcast, you want to, you want to be on their or they invited you. You don't know this person, you haven't met this person before. And you're like, okay, I want to say yes to this invitation. But first, I need to do a safety check to make sure we're values aligned, and to make sure it's a safe space for me. What's the first thing that you do at that point to initiate the safety check?

Mai-kee

So I think I would do two things. One would be the safety check via a peer. And another would be a safety check, by me asking them if they're open to jumping on a call. And to be honest with you, if they're not willing to jump on a call with me, before they're asking me to be on their podcast or their summit, I would actually probably politely decline the invitation. Because to me, I only really want to collaborate with people who are open to taking the time. Because it's not just for me, it's ultimately for them to know that we are a genuine fit. And the things that I could talk about can really help their audience and I always position it that way. I'm always making sure like, hey, I just want to make sure you know, first of all, thank you so much for the invitation, I really love the idea of and I just want to make sure that we're on the same page here. And to ensure that the thing you want me to speak about can really be a fit for your audience. So if you're open, we can, you know, jump on a 15 minute zoom call, if you prefer Voxer, that's also okay, so give them options, you know? And because they may be super busy people, may prefer more asynchronous sort of way of doing things. So, yay for Voxer. And if they say a flat out no to that, that tells me that, I get that it takes more time. I, you know, I personally respect that. I respect that, you know, we're busy people, and then I'll just, then I'll be able to know for myself, Okay, I'm going to take a step back, thank you so much for the opportunity, I'd much rather create space for someone who is willing to do this with you, without needing to do this kind of get to know you kind of call. And, you know, if I know someone who could be a better fit, I'm more than happy to send them a referral, but to me is not worth compromising. Not knowing them. I won't compromise my position, my reputation even, because I have been called in before.

I've been called in quite firmly by a couple of my community members once, when I did the collaboration with someone who that of course, I'm not going to name names, but I was on a panel with someone who's very well known for what they do. And not for the best reasons, let's just say, but I chose to say yes, not because of that person, but because of who the host was. And I had a great relationship with them. So I did feel like really, I was really juggling my options, then I was like, oh, I really don't know. And it actually, I- when I had the experience and I was called in and I thought you said that you, you know that you don't align with so and so like, why are you on this panel with them? And then, and I was that was a great reminder for me. I was like, yeah, you're right. And I had the experience. Yeah, she wasn't great whatsoever, because of because of the misalignment there. And I don't think it was actually really helpful for those who tuned in. And so it just goes to show that it has to go through several checks, you know, as the, it needs to be through the alignment check. And who else is on this collaboration? And if there's a relevant peer, who I can really trust to do the safety checklist to you know, ask them to do that with me. Yeah, so it's a lot of, there's a lot of choices to make.

Maegan

Yeah, this is great. And and so final question about the safety check. When you are doing the safety check with a peer, and this peer is someone who has connected with this potential partner or collaborator in the past, what questions are you asking them?

Mai-kee

So first of all, I reached out to them, letting them know that this is a unconventional ask. So just like really setting the expectations here, and I and I'm always ensuring that look, I'm not asking you to call out anyone or for any explicit details or anything like that. It's just a general vibe, to whichever degree they are open to sharing with me. And I would tell them why I'm doing it. Normally whenever I tell the why, people are more open, I would say this person has actually invited me to be a part of their summit or be on their podcast. And the thing is, I haven't met them before. And while I'll of course do my due diligence, I see that you're already mutually, you're a mutual connection. And so I was wondering if you'd be open to sharing anything about your experience with them thus far?

Maegan

Beautiful.

Mai-kee

Yeah, and I would, of course, if they if they if they're not comfortable with it, I would never push further because nothing is more important to me than the relationships I have with my parents and with my communities. So yeah, I'd go along something like that. So I was just let them know it's an unconventional ask. I tell them what I'm asking them of them and while I'm doing it, and I'll leave it, you know, put the ball in their court so to speak.

Maegan

No pressure.

Mai-kee

Yeah, no pressure. But I'm asking you, because I trust you sort of thing.

Maegan

Mai-kee this is really so fresh. Like this, oh, this is like a really fresh take on how do we engage in marketing relationships, visibility, relationships, collaborative partnerships? How do we engage in these relationships from a more informed perspective, so that we go into the relationships feeling really safe, and really both parties have had a chance to consent to yes, I agree, I want to step in to this experience together, this feels really powerful. There are two reflections I want to share about this, this idea of the safety check. One is coming back to what you said at the beginning of this conversation about, you know, visibility is being seen, on your own terms, it's being seen with your own consent. And I hear that in the safety check. There is this invitation, every step of the way for you to be practicing consent with yourself. I think we often talk about consent with other people, that we are consenting for another person to do or engage with us in a certain way. But we don't talk as often about the process of consent between me myself, and I, you know, am I really checking in with myself? Do I consent with me to step into this relationship or into this experience, in the safety check feels like this really clear process that allows you to gift yourself consent to step into a visibility opportunity. So there's something about that, that feels really special and important.

And the other thing, reflection, that I want to offer here about the safety check, is I'm just really witnessing the way that you detach from expectation and detach from any sort of scarcity. And what I mean is that many people, especially when your business is smaller, newer, you're growing, you, you feel like any publicity is good publicity. Any visibility is good visibility, you're so desperate to be seen and recognized that you're willing to say yes to any opportunity that comes your way. And in so many ways, I think that default reaction is rooted in scarcity, right? There's not enough, I have to be seen, I have to, I have to take whatever I'm offered, or whatever I'm given. And when I listen to you talk about Sustainable Visibility and doing these safety checks, I'm really, I'm really struck by how confident you are in letting opportunities pass you by. Do you have anything you want to say about that? It's a very different perspective in the marketing visibility arena.

Mai-kee

I mean, I feel like it's really important for me to say right now that I am only, I'm now in a position where I am more selective. And I totally appreciate that anybody who may be listening right now may be thinking, well, good for you Mai-kee because you've got so many coming towards you that you get to pick and choose like that. But I'm not in a position like that. And you're right, you know, we're all in different positions. So please do take everything I'm saying with a pinch of salt. And what I would say here is, it's just really weighing out your costs. So what is the cost of you saying yes, what is the cost for you saying no? And for me, my, my mental well being, my personal sense of safety is the highest cost there is and there is nothing that I will do to compromise that. And that probably does speak to the fact that I am in a in a relatively privileged position where I can be more selective, you know. I am in a very stable, sort of like, you know, home situation. And so even if I earn a bit less into my business, I would still have a roof over my head, I will still have food on the table. And I appreciate not everybody is a position like that. I also don't have any kids right now, aside from my cat children. I have two wonderful cats. But yeah, I feel like it was really important for me to say that, first and foremost.

Maegan

Yes/and- I think that the conversation you're having here is offering an invitation for all of us in business to think about marketing and visibility in a different way. And I think that we're really quick when we're new in business and we don't have stability yet, we're really quick to give away our authority and our boundaries because we think we have to in order to succeed. And sometimes we have to make hard decisions, no doubt about it. But I think you're offering a new perspective here, that, hey, actually, you can create really powerful relationships, collaborative partnerships, with full consent, and you can say no to anything that doesn't feel right to you. It doesn't matter. I mean, this really, it's really about power dynamics.

When we're new in business, we feel like we have no power. And we feel like people who are, quote, more successful than us have all of the power. So we're very quick to do whatever they say, because we just, we just want to succeed. And again, sometimes we have to make hard decisions. But what you're really inspiring me to think about today, Mai-kee, is that actually, I don't have to sacrifice my sense of safety, I don't have to sacrifice my boundaries, in order to be seen as a business owner, as a person who is selling something, or has something to say. I just wonder if we, if we all tried to approach visibility in our businesses through this lens of safety and consent, if there could be a real trickle down effect that could potentially change the way we navigate this landscape across the board, not just for those of us who have privilege and authority? What are your thoughts about that?

Mai-kee

Yeah, I absolutely love that you're talking about this. And, yeah, I mean, we all start from somewhere. And I'll be very honest with you, I- at, at face value, it looks like I turn a lot of things away, and that the cost of not having this visibility, you know, it can feel like that at face value. But the thing is, I know because I've been told many, many, many times how people really respect how I uphold my boundaries, and just like really live out through my values, and they see you as someone with integrity, which is a humongous honor to hear. And I think that's why because I look at my stats for my email list when people join, because, um, you know, only ever showing up in like, super online spaces. When people join, they stay very often for years at a time. And there are people coming out of the woodworks, you know, to work with me, and part of me is like, respectfully, who are you? And then they'll tell me that I've been following you for years and like, have you?Because they don't really show themselves right? That all that to say that they will show up for you when it really counts. You know?

Maegan

Yes, yeah.

Mai-kee

Yeah. And I will have to say that the reason why I'm able to be sustainably visible is because it's very much because of my amazing relationships that I've really taken the time to cultivate with new people. And for people who have already, that I've already connected with, like yourself, for example, the relationship only deepens over time. And, you know, just being very conscious of who, who's spaces I'm going into, doing those safety checks as and when acknowledging the season that I'm in the kind of capacity I have. Because when I'm at extremely low capacity, I call it the three E's, it's the essentials, the enhancements and the embellishments. So when I'm in essentials mode, I know, I'm very unlikely to do things on video, and may do a podcast every now and then. But my default actually is writing. So even though I'm actually a verbal processor, when I'm, when I have very little capacity at all, I default to a lot of writing and it's why my email, my relationship with my email list is very strong, because I email them at least once a week, several times a week, but it's never at the same time. It's just kind of as and when, but I set, I set that expectation as soon as they join my email list is in the welcome emails, like hey, it's like an open face sandwich, the structure at the very beginning. The rest is organic. And so that's the essentials mode, but when I'm in my enhancements, that is when I'm like okay, I have a bit more wiggle room to do a couple things. Maybe I'll do a couple of videos. Maybe I'll do more podcast episodes and guesting and so that's when I'm like doing like a very small number of collaborations. But then when I've got a lot of capacity and I feel very supported in my life as well as my business, then I would go into embellishments mode. It's like oh, what are the things that I've been putting off for a while, like pitching myself to speak on a stage or you know, to finally get around to my TED talk or doing a you know, pitching to the media, those really big things that aren't necessary for me to get by, but it's a nice boost, you know. And so yeah, I feel like you're about to say something.

Maegan

No, go ahead!

Mai-kee

And I just want to say that each and every one of you who's listening right now, I recommend you start looking into your own version of what it means to have your essentials, your enhancements, and your embellishments. So the way I visualize it is like three concentric circles. So if you think of like a bullseye like a target, the very center of the bullseye is your essentials. And then when you go out a ring, then that is the enhancements and you go out to the outer ring, and that is the embellishments. And it's all based on what season you're in, and therefore the capacity you have the way you like expressing yourself. Like, what, what are you like, what's the biggest difference when you have a lot of capacity and minimal capacity? Like what can you do in each of those seasons?

Maegan

Amazing. I love the image of the bullseye. The concentric circles, essential, enhancement embellishments. And I love that we are rounding out our interview with with this topic, because my my last question for you was to, to see if you would talk about how people can work with their fear of being overwhelmed, as why are people afraid of being visible? Well, they don't feel safe, right, they're afraid of being wounded or being hurt, they have fear of rejection, they're afraid of being canceled, or of there being negative social consequences around being seen in the wrong way. And the other one that I think is the most common in, in my world, and my work with clients is the fear of overwhelm and burnout. I'm just already so taxed from delivering services, from tending to my life, like the thought of having to market, having to be visible, it just drains me. And I think you are providing such a beautiful, a beautiful solution to the problem of overwhelm of like, let's really think about the way that you're showing up and being seen in relation to your energetic capacity, and allowing that to be really organic.

I really appreciate that too, Mai-kee, that, you know, some days, all you can do are the essentials. But some days you're actually feeling so resourced and supported. Like I can just jump right up to embellishments, I can, I can do something like really special and extra because I have the capacity to do so. But this only works when you get clearer in your strategy, about what activities belong in which category for you think that's something I'm really noticing in our conversation today is the beautiful way that you balance systems and strategy, like pencil to paper, here's what we're doing, let's write it down. It's very, very clear with organic evolution that we can like grow and shift and change. We don't have to anticipate it, we can meet ourselves exactly where we're at. But it's the dance between these two. It's the dance between the systematic and the organic, that really creates sustainable visibility for you in your work as a business owner. Am I understanding that correctly, do you think?

Mai-kee

Yeah, it's something that requires knowing yourself so well. And it takes time like before I started compartmentalizing all of this into you know, the 3E model, or there's actually an analogy or metaphor. I always, I always mix them up.

Maegan

No worries, we know what you're doing.

Mai-kee

But I think it may be helpful in this conversation about capacity. I know that we're starting to wrap up soon, but may I share with you?

Maegan

Please? I'm here for it.

Mai-kee

All right. So if I were to tell you, hey, so I'm gonna go to Hong Kong to meet up with my grandmother. And Hong Kong is about 14 hours away. Okay. Would I would I be able to see her in 14 hours from now? Yes or no.

Maegan

Yes.

Mai-kee

Well, technically no, because if I'm still in the UK, and it takes me 14 hours by plane to get there, would be with her in 14 hours from now?

Maegan

Okay, no, I mean, that travel time, you'd have packing time, you'd have to drive to her. Okay, no.

Mai-kee

Exactly. Right. So here's the thing, when most folks actually start doing a lot of visibility activities, they only think of the time it takes to do the activity, but not what happens before and after. So I call this the three A's. The first A is anticipation. So before you go onto a plane, you would have to pack your bags, you'd have to go to the airport to go to security, all of that jazz, right. And that can take quite a couple of hours. And then is the actual plane ride itself. And then after that, sometimes we're not always the most energetic after we leave the plane and so you know, we need to collect our luggage we need to go to the hotel or Airbnb, probably chill out just to really get over some jetlag and probably get a nap in, if it's ideal to have a nap, sometimes you got to stay up. Point is that there's very minimal consideration for what happens before and after. So the first A is the anticipation, how you're actually feeling before you do the thing. And then the action is the plane ride, like how long it's taking to actually get to the place you want to go. But then there's the aftermath. So you said about the overwhelm you said about the burnout. And it's because there's very minimal allocation of capacity to deal with the aftermath of something. So you and I were speaking about how summits are a huge amount of work but it can be worth it to do it. But it's probably going to take some, you know, downtime to recharge, and rejuvenate, to kind of come back from after that, because it's such a big task. But if you don't plan that in, if you don't plan that time in, then you're very likely to go into burnout mode, because you haven't taken to account the aftermath. So that's why each and every person, I would recommend and suggest that you take into account, when you look at a visibility strategy, don't just think about how long it's gonna take you to write that blog post, or to do the actual interview, or to deliver your keynote speech, whatever it is, like, don't just think about that, but think of the prep is going to take you, and what you need to do for yourself afterwards, just to kind of get back up to speed. And that's gonna require you to rest. This is all about The Rest & Success Code , right? So it's essential, it's not optional, is essential. So it's kind of like making sure that you have some space in your calendar, and mental space as well, just to kind of like, come down from the, from the plane ride, and let yourself like get through the quote unquote, jetlag of the visibility.

Maegan

What was the second A?

Mai-kee

Action

Maegan

Action, right, okay. I'm writing that down, it's so good.

Mai-kee

The action is when you're doing the thing. So if we use this current interview, that we are doing right now, the restaurant success, so the action is the hour or so that you and I are taking out of our time to do the interview. Right? But before then, you ask, your team asked me to fill out in some forms, then a headshot, you know, so to speak, or agreement. So that would be considered, considered the anticipation, right? And then the aftermath would be after we do this interview, I'm going to think about promotional angles, especially when, of course, this interview goes live. And in preparation for the rest of The Rest & Success Code , you know, conversations that you kind of have, and the time I needed to allocate in my calendar for these promotions. So this is one visibility strategy that's happening right now. But can you see that I already know what it takes for me to say, yes, because I know the prep that happened before. And what happens after the interview for me to really do my part for you?

Maegan

Yeah, yes. First of all, you are the queen of alliterations.

Mai-kee

Thank you. Haha, yes you'll see that across all of my work.

Maegan

The three A's I'm here for it. You know, in all seriousness, this is so incredibly wise, it took me years to figure this out as a business owner that I was really bad at anticipating the aftermath. And probably anticipating the anticipation as well that it is so easy to just think about the fun thing you know, which is like the showing up and doing it, recording the interview. But yeah, it takes it takes time to prep, it takes time to do the the after tasks, as well as the rest and the recharge that has to come after being visible as well. Because no matter what type of visibility you are experimenting with, if it's writing, speaking, connecting one on one, it drains the battery. And if you don't have a strategy for recharging that battery after being seen and visible, you are going to burn yourself out and then that old narrative gets reinforced that I don't have enough energy, I can't do this, it's going to overwhelm me, it's not going to feel safe. We don't bring any of this baggage with us into our businesses. It comes from societal conditioning, capitalism, capitalistic conditioning, family of origin conditioning, but we do a really good job of reinforcing the baggage that we bring into our businesses with us. And I think what you are doing in your work, and in all of the wisdom that you've shared with us today is you're giving us strategies that we can use to stop that cycle. So that we can start to create a new relationship with visibility within ourselves. Looking at defining how it is that you want to be visible, really understanding the fears that hold you back from being visible, creating safety checks and safety strategies that make being visible really feel so safe that you can consent to showing up and being seen. And then looking at the three E's or the three A's, all strategies to help you match your visibility strategies with your energetic capacity.

Mai-kee, we covered a ton of ground today and you have shared a generous amount of wisdom with us. So deep, deep gratitude to you for the work that you're doing and for everything that you shared here with this audience today. Before we wrap up, I have one fun little bonus question, if, if you're down for it.

Mai-kee

Okay. Yeah, let's go for it.

Maegan

Well, I'm asking everyone on The Rest & Success Code this season the same question. A theme that I'm coming back to in a lot of these interviews, is really looking at how our businesses can pay us in more than just money. Right, because hopefully, we are all creating businesses that really serve us and our lives first. I want to help people create wealthy lives, in all of the ways that matter. And real wealth is about a lot more than just money. So I'm really curious to know what is one way your business pays you and something other than money?

Mai-kee

Relationships, by far.

Maegan

Oh my gosh, say more about that, please.

Mai-kee

When I think of an alternative life, when I, if I didn't have a business, I can't even begin to imagine all of the people who actually wouldn't be in my life, who I have today. It breaks my heart to think that I wouldn't have met all of these incredible people who have become such dear friends. And I'm so happy. And honestly, I feel honored to know all of these people who are doing such amazing things. And it's just like, how they're going about it. Because when when I speak to my friends, and they tell me about their corporate woes, and the kind of stuff they have to handle with their co workers or stuff that I think to myself, wow, I honestly forget how much of a privilege it is to be able to be a lot more selective of the kind of people who kind of come into my world, especially as a highly sensitive person, to be able to have choice over who you let in is, is incredible. And so my business, by far pays me by helping me meet people that I honestly can't imagine my life without them.

Maegan

Wow. I feel that so deeply in my own heart as well. That some of the most important players in my life right now, dearest friends, are people that I met through my work. And yet I hadn't named that in my own list of ways my business is paying me and other than money. So more gratitude to you for sharing that reflection. Your business pays you in really rich relationships. That is so special and so important. And Mai-kee, the work you're doing in the world is incredible. It's such a gift. Thank you so much for being here. I am so happy to know you.

Mai-kee

Thank you so much as well for how we were able to, because we both said like hey, let's see where this conversation can go and look where it did go because of the beauty, your curiosity, your inquisitiveness, and just your willingness to hear this way of approaching visibility. I thank- I can't thank you enough. And yes, you are one of the people that I'm talking about in terms of the you know, these rich friendships that are truly wonderful. So thank you so much for having me here.

Maegan

You are welcome. I will talk to you again very soon.

Maegan

I really hope this conversation with Mai-kee has helped you rethink your relationship with marketing and visibility. I love Mai-kee's ideas, and I think she may hold the key many of us need to be visible and deeply rested. If you want to learn more from Mai-kee, subscribe to her Inside Insights newsletter at maikeetsang.com/insideinsights.

Or get her $9 cup of Ketchups mini workshop. This is an example of her sustainable visibility strategy. You can find that at maikeetsang.com/cuppa. I will put all of these links in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening to the Deeply Rested podcast. I'll talk to you again next week.

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