In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary, sits down with Chelly Conley, Director of Global HR and Inclusion at KnowBe4, to discuss the raw reality of the HR industry in 2026. From navigating the toughest job market in over a decade to surviving the "Wild West" of AI adoption, Chelly shares a no-sugarcoat guide to staying resilient and relevant.

Chelly opens up about the "visceral" state of the current HR labor market, where experienced professionals are facing year-long unemployment cycles. The conversation dives deep into HR’s ongoing identity crisis—explaining why rebranding to "People and Culture" fails if the team is still viewed as the "food and fun" department rather than a strategic business partner.

The two also explore the bizarre and high-stakes side of AI in talent acquisition. Chelly shares cautionary tales of "AI Brandon" bot interviews and deepfake candidates, while offering a practical framework for where HR should automate (administrative weeds) and where they must remain human (employment law and empathy).

The episode closes with a masterclass on the J-Curve of change management. Chelly explains how HR leaders can future-proof their teams by "de-centering" themselves to lead employees through the chaos of transformation, ensuring that the eventual gains in productivity are worth the initial dip.

Topics Discussed:

1. The 2026 HR Job Market: Why it’s the toughest environment in 13 years
2. Navigating "Advice Fatigue" and the emotional toll of long-term unemployment
3. The HR Branding Trap: Moving beyond "party planning" to strategic business alignment
4. Why "doing more with less" requires choosing which hills to die on
5. The "Wild West" of AI: Dealing with AI interview bots and deepfake candidates
6. The Legal Guardrails: Why you should never use AI for employment law (ADA, FMLA, etc.)
7. Finding the "Middle Steps": Identifying the right HR tasks for automation
8. The J-Curve of Change Management: Understanding the dip before the breakthrough
9. "De-centering" as a leadership tool to build psychological safety during transitions
10. Future-proofing through adaptability and a growth mindset

If you are an HR leader feeling the weight of burnout, navigating a lean team, or trying to find the balance between human empathy and AI efficiency, this episode offers the grounded, "real-talk" perspective needed to pivot toward a more strategic future.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Chelly Conley on LinkedIn

I think it'll be such an interesting time to be alive, like

2

five to 10 years from now to see like

the data that comes out from like the

3

release of ChatGPT and AI to see all of

this stuff for that has came up from us

4

essentially being in the wild west for

the last few years with all the different

5

things that are coming up with AI.

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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

7

For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

8

be prepared to be decimated.

9

We reject that message.

10

The future of HR won't be handed to us.

11

Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

12

Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

13

what they've learned, and what's next.

14

We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Future

Proof HR podcast where we explore how

17

forward thinking HR leaders are preparing

for disruption and redefining what it

18

means to lead people in a changing world.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Today's guest

is Chelly Conley, the Director of

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Global HR and Inclusion at KnowBe4.

21

With 10 plus years in HR, Chelly

focuses on empowering teams,

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cultivating inclusive cultures,

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and translating fast-moving trends

into practical playbooks for

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leaders and employees.

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She also serves on her local SHRM

board, keeping a pulse on what HR

26

pros are facing on the ground,

from a brutally competitive job

27

market to the rise of AI in hiring

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and L&D.

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We have a lot of ground to cover.

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Chelly, welcome to the podcast.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for having me.

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round to cover.

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Chelly, welcome to the podcast.

35

Chelly: Thank you.

36

Thank you for having me.

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Thomas: Absolutely.

38

So tell me a little bit about the

market for HR professionals today.

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I'm just curious what you think,

because you have a little bit

40

of a pulse on what's going on.

41

You told me it's the toughest

market that you've seen.

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Tell me what's behind that.

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Chelly: Yeah, I hope people didn't hear my

sigh like too loudly that was a visceral

44

reaction that i had to the question about

the current hr job market right now I

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don't even want to sugarcoat it for people

at least from the florida perspective

46

and the tampa florida perspective from

where I'm at it's pretty tough right

47

now we're seeing a lot of layoffs occur

which feel like people are being are

48

able see that even nationwide, a lot is

being affected within white collar sector

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that's being impacted as well, too.

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And specifically within HR,

within support type of roles.

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So you're even seeing it within HR,

finance, marketing, all through there.

52

And so not only are people being

impacted, it is also taking a very

53

long time to find roles as well, too,

because the job market has slowed down.

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So from just qualitative data, from

what I've seen in my local SHRM

55

group and whatnot, it's taking people

upwards of nine months, even some

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people like more towards a year.

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And that's rough.

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I think for speaking for anybody,

unexpected unemployment for a year would

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put anybody under any type of duress.

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I think it's tough right now.

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And not only is it tough for people

impacted by layoffs, it's also tough for

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people who are new grads who are breaking,

trying to break into HR right now.

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And the job market has slowed down.

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So I feel like it's difficult on both

ends, making it difficult as a whole

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in the industry for people right now.

66

Thomas: Yeah, you mean like

across seniority levels.

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So then what do you think is

driving this at the moment?

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Maybe it's a confluence of factors

as you're talking to your peers

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and you're keeping a pulse on your

organization and others like it.

70

There's some obvious factors, I guess.

71

The macroeconomic situation for

there's some like uncertainty

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at the moment, right?

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But I feel like there's been

uncertainty like every quarter

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since COVID, but what are

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the

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unique confluence of factors

that's making, especially

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for HR professionals, right?

78

And becoming a little bit

tougher than ever before.

79

Chelly: I think the fact

is how competitive it is.

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Because when you talk about even from

the perspective of like new grads trying

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to get in, they're not only competing

against other new grads, they're competing

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against people who've been laid off.

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And those people are coming

with years of experience.

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They're coming with the

certifications, the degrees and

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things like that as well, too.

86

So it's putting it in a position

where it's making it more competitive

87

than it's ever been before.

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I've

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been in HR for probably 13 years now.

90

And I can say when I first was

getting into it, it felt difficult.

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So I can't imagine how

difficult it must feel now.

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But the reason why it felt so difficult

13 years ago is HR as an industry

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is also very experienced based.

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You can take into consideration like

getting your MBA or getting your

95

master's and the certifications,

but at the end of the day, it

96

does require a lot of experience.

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And so I think that combined with the

competitiveness, with the slowing job

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market is what makes it so difficult

right now for people to land a job.

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Thomas: This is a core theme, but we

haven't really hit it, don't think, on

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this podcast but we're talking about

future-proofing hr part of it so saying

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hey we need to define for ourselves

right how to future-proof ourselves

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the professionals across all layers of

seniority right and all subspecialties

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but from your perspective if you're like

talking to your experienced friends or

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like out there looking and it's been

a while and things aren't clicking.

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Maybe there's already part of

the background context is in

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the COVID era and the big zip up

and back down and everything in

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between over the last few years.

108

There's been lot of HR professionals

who feel a sense of burnout.

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Then on top of that, if you're laid

off or left role in the last year

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or two and hoping to get back in,

but you've been stuck in limbo for

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some time, it can get disheartening.

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There might be a little

bit of an exodus out.

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But if you're talking to one of

your more experienced colleagues,

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what advice would you have for them?

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Is there anything like you need to change

about either your mindset or approach or

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what should you be doing maximize your

chances in this particular job market?

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Chelly: That's a really good question.

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And when I think on that, I want to

be careful with my words, because I'm

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sure that people who are experienced

and are actively searching and have

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been actively searching for a year, the

only difference between them and me is

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that they were impacted by a layoff.

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And so it's just like when giving

advice, I'm sure it's almost like

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getting advice fatigue, but it's okay.

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Your network is your net worth, but

to make sure to reach out to the

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recruiter, make sure you're doing this.

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I'm sure there's only so much of

that type of advice that they can

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receive within a year on top of

the experience they already have.

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It's not like they were new to this.

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And so it's that I feel like I want

to be very particular with my words,

130

with the type of advice I want to give.

131

And I think what it comes down to,

because it's like you said, we're

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talking about experienced people.

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So they already know that they have the

experience, but and remembering that

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because there will be times when you

go through interview processes where

135

it'll be like the fifth, sixth, whatever

round you're interviewing with AI.

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You're getting lunch with the team

to see if you're a culture fit.

137

I'm putting culture fit in air

quotes for people and stuff and

138

may still get that rejection.

139

And a lot of the times,

especially from the U.S.

140

perspective, we tie our sense of worth

and our identity to our job title.

141

And so I think that it's a lot of emotions

that are raw to navigate during this

142

time that may throw you off in regards

to how you see yourself and your worth.

143

And I feel like my advice, and I'll

put that in quotes as well too, is

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to remember to stay grounded who you

are and what you bring to the table.

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And that just because you are

impacted by a layoff doesn't mean

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you're starting from ground zero.

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You're coming to the table with your

experience and who you are as a person

148

and what you brought to the table

before you still bring to the table now.

149

And I think it's easy to forget

that when you're going through a

150

process of long-term unemployment

and you're being subjected to

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rejection, which is hard for anybody.

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And especially if you hadn't

have been in this cycle in a

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while, that's hard to balance.

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And so I think my advice would just be

to continue to remember exactly who you

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are, and also to continue to connect with

people who will remind you who you are,

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which I know can be difficult, because

like I said, unexpected unemployment

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means that some people may have been

put into survival mode at that point.

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So I know that probably sounds easier

said than done, but trying to stay true

159

to yourself in those moments, because

I think there will be times where

160

your confidence can get skewed or the

experience can start to play tricks on

161

your mind as to where you bring value.

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Thomas: That's sound advice.

163

And from a place of

caution, I appreciate that.

164

Maybe we can get try to, I don't know,

get to a little bit of the other side

165

of this, which is folks who are in HR

today and are in this environment, right?

166

Where there's other side of it as

well, where there's teams being

167

asked to do more with less, headcount

freezes, leaner teams on the HR front.

168

What are you seeing out there amongst

your colleagues in terms of the folks

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who are looking to run programs?

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And then has there become

more of a narrow focus?

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Or how do you still make an

impact if this is the environment?

172

And is what I'm discussing a lot of

what you're seeing at this moment

173

as well, for those who are on the

inside who are actively running

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and looking to execute on programs?

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Chelly: Yeah, I think so.

176

I think that is a lot of what's

happening is a high level of burnout.

177

Because as you mentioned before,

HR was difficult as it is, because

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you're managing humans, you're

managing emotions trying to balance

179

policies while also balancing the

human aspect of things as well, too.

180

So HR is already difficult as it is.

181

But it seems like from 2020, as you

said, it is not let up because even

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from the beginning of 2020, it was like

navigating everybody working from home.

183

And all of a sudden, remote policies need

to be out, like how teams function in

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remote levels, like getting your managers

upskilled on how to manage teams remotely

185

and seeing those pitfalls within skill or

within skill sets for managers, because

186

there's some managers where they're not

able to, there was gaps that were shown

187

as far as their management level went

versus remote versus in office and stuff.

188

And even from going there, like what you

talked about with the pendulum swing,

189

because there was times even coming out of

the, I think in COVID, where it was like,

190

it was need, it was an employee market.

191

And so navigating what that looks like

and seeing the type of needs and the

192

needs of employees were also changing

because COVID made people see that they

193

wanted to prioritize things that were

important to them, whether it was their

194

family, their children, their health.

195

And so they were coming to the

table with like new requirements.

196

Then it was a pendulum swing back.

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And now it's more of an employer

market and AI and all these things.

198

And also not to mention a new

change in administrations.

199

And so also dealing with rapid

law change, and that's from a

200

federal level and a state level.

201

And there's HR people that

manage all of that and stuff.

202

And so I think it's a high level

of burnout coming from HR right now

203

with trying to manage all the time.

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What you said, doing more with less

and still expected to make an impact.

205

That's really tough.

206

And that's a lot of situations that

people are in and they're having to not

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only take care of themselves, they're

having to also take care of their team,

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which typically comes at the expense

of trying to take care of themselves.

209

So it's, it's tough.

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It's really tough.

211

I think that's like what I see.

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I'm actually, ironically, it's like

funny that you bring this up because

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I'm getting ready to do a session on

recentering yourself with your power,

214

purpose, and connecting because of the

fact that HR, and it's specifically

215

for HR people, because of the fact that

we're always responsible for employees

216

and balancing the organization's

needs and everything else in between.

217

And that gets difficult to do

for any chronic amount of time.

218

And what we talked about, it's been since

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Thomas: Man.

220

So do you think doing more with

less is that the HR teams have

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traditionally always been lean.

222

I would say it's not like the most

over-resourced function within the

223

organization anyway, historically.

224

But how are you personally

or like folks that you know,

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navigating that at this moment.

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Are there like certain types of programs

that you're like investing more in?

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Or basically, are you pushing back and

saying, we're going to do less with less?

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Or we're going to focus on these areas

and this matters and that doesn't matter

229

because we don't have we're not like

properly resourced for it or like how

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do you just think about those trade-offs

in terms of either quarterly planning

231

or day-to-day tactical activities.

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When we say more with less there could

be any number of things you're supposedly

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asked to do more with right like we

it could be anything from onboarding

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offboarding manager training we're

going to go deeper in on compensation

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program or we're going to do an

organizational network we're going to

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go into people analytics we need to

do a new HR system we want to train

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everybody up on a new remote policy.

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There's a million things that you could

be doing but like when the message is

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okay this is a constraint this is where

we're at like how do you like think about

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navigating what to invest in versus not

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Chelly: I think you have to look at

it from the business perspective and

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make sure that what you're doing is

tied for the business goals and where

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they're going because even though

there may be a narrative where do more

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with less or whatever that may be.

245

At the end of the day, a

business is a business.

246

So if you're aligning your stuff with

and you're if you're able to, I'm going

247

to make that caveat, because I know

there's probably a whole bunch of HR

248

people who are listening and they're not

necessarily in a position where HR is

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seen as like a strategic business partner.

250

And so what I'm saying may sound

more like LaLand type of stuff if

251

you're not in that position where

you can make strategic impact.

252

So I want to caveat that so I don't get

eye rolls for what I'm about to say.

253

But when you connect things to

the business, you don't have to

254

worry about whether or not they

will be money because people will.

255

That's one thing about corporate is I

feel like they will pull money out of

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the sky if they think it's something

that's going to make more money.

257

So if you're worried about a program

that you're going to invest in, if

258

you make the business case and you're

in that position to get that type of

259

leadership buy-in to show like, this

is how this directly impacts this.

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And this is how this directly impacts

revenue, money, whatever it may be.

261

Like there will be money

to be found somewhere.

262

And so I feel like you got to almost

pick and choose, especially if you're

263

in that lean stage, you have to

choose what hill you want to die on.

264

You have to choose what

hill is worth investing in.

265

And some stuff is just, I can't get to it

right now and be okay with that and have

266

that type of a balance of pick and choose.

267

So you have to be strategic with your

time and effort when you're in that.

268

And if you do, I smirked when

you said doing less with less.

269

And I'm like, I don't think it

could ever be that because then

270

we'll end up being fired, but

271

definitely doing more with less.

272

Thomas: Well, that's part of

the pushback that's needed.

273

There's only so much that

can be accomplished with

274

a certain amount of time.

275

And yeah, I think expectations could be

unreasonable, but maybe the distinction is

276

kind of what you're talking about, right?

277

The expectations from the

business or your broader set of

278

stakeholders is coming from one lens.

279

But the expectations maybe are

often set from within because

280

there's like a quote, perfect way of

doing HR in people's minds, right?

281

Of all the things that you're supposed

to do, but in reality may not be valued.

282

And maybe that's something that you need

to like on an individual organizational

283

basis kind of come to a conclusion on

and like where do you like invest in.

284

Maybe the more aspect of doing more

with less is more self-imposed in

285

some ways in some organizations

than imposed by the organization.

286

Just a thought.

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Chelly: It's funny you say that about

how people have expectations around

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HR and what they're supposed to do.

289

And this is from what I hear from

just different colleagues and

290

stuff like that and being in the

HR field for as long as I have.

291

And the issue is that what HR is

supposed to do and what they actually...

292

actually do.

293

There's definitely a gap in between

that because so many people have

294

their different versions and

definitions of what HR does.

295

But you could go out and like

survey, I guarantee you 100 people

296

and you will get like a different

response as to what HR does.

297

And a lot of that is going to be based

off of their most likely either what

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they've heard word of mouth or their

lived experience that they had with HR.

299

And I feel like a lot of the times the

people who speak about it are ones that

300

probably had negative experience with HR.

301

So if they only saw their HR team

when they were being hired and fired,

302

that's going to be their definition

of like HR is just there just to

303

hire, fire and stuff like that.

304

If they worked at an organization

that really focused on culture and

305

implementing different programs,

different engagement programs,

306

upskilling and stuff, that's how they'll

remember HR and their interactions.

307

And so it's tough because that's another

thing that HR is having to go up against

308

is people's different viewpoints as to

what HR should be doing and what they're

309

actually doing and their definitions.

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Thomas: Yeah, great point.

311

And it's almost like a

branding exercise, right?

312

There's been the movement

of rebranding it.

313

There's arguably more than just a

branding, but from the human, it went

314

from benefits department to human

resources, like many decades ago,

315

but now a rebranding into people

operations or the people team, as

316

opposed to like Human Resources,

because it's more people centric and

317

culture and that we're investing in

that major resource as a way to try to

318

train and educate the market almost.

319

And I think you're right, it's both

because your examples resonate for both

320

what an employee, a disgruntled employee

might search for and think about on Reddit

321

or glassdoor and what we think about with

HR, but also crucially what a CEO or a

322

CFO or a hiring committee or a board in

terms of what their expectations are,

323

that also can be all over the map, right?

324

Chelly: Yeah.

325

And you find out as soon as you get

in there or either maybe somewhat

326

in your interview process, but then

you really find out once you start

327

working in the day-to-day as to

where the priorities are and whatnot.

328

And it's interesting trying to

navigate like those different areas.

329

And you made me smirk when you said

Reddit, because that's exactly the point.

330

HR gets lit up in Reddit

a lot of the times.

331

I'll be honest, it's sometimes it's

difficult to defend even from an HR

332

perspective, because it's like, you

can't deny someone's lived experience.

333

Like the way that people are being handled

in their layoffs and stuff and things

334

like that, which can be like insensitive.

335

And how do you

336

really argue that?

337

Like maybe like those things

like probably should have been

338

handled better and whatnot.

339

And so it's hard going up

against that narrative.

340

And it's exactly like what you talked

about with the people and culture rebrand.

341

That's that was always interesting to me.

342

And can appreciate it if it's

actually what it is at face value.

343

The issue is that there's organizations

that are rebranding to people in

344

culture, but they're still focused

on the party planning, the admin

345

aspect and things like that.

346

The name, it won't matter if you change

it, because if you're still showing up

347

looking like you're not strategically

involved and you're just here for

348

food, fun, in activities, you're still

going to be fighting the same battle

349

no matter what tag you put on it.

350

You know what I mean?

351

Thomas: Yeah, that's a great point.

352

The rebranding is only as successful

as the activities that follow it on.

353

But if you're just doing the same

things, which often is the case,

354

it doesn't really change much.

355

So I guess that's like yet another battle.

356

I guess what I heard is

the definitions of what

357

HR really should be doing is so variant.

358

And I guess my perspective is that's

probably only increased in the last

359

five years because the variants across

organizations, like of what are the actual

360

things this department does, because in

some places you hear about it being like

361

combined with like workplace and even the

CFO's office and IT and others you hear

362

it's, yeah, it's fully administration

and that's the hiring and firing and

363

compliance and that's it, but it's all

some format of the same function at the

364

highest level in terms of like branding.

365

We like to think about the future, right?

366

But it's useful to understand where

we are at this moment, Chelley.

367

But where do you think it's all

headed from your perspective, what

368

should a solid and productive, useful,

aligned HR department look like?

369

What should they be doing

that maybe they aren't today?

370

Or what things should we not

be doing maybe that we are?

371

Or like, how would you think about the gap

between what you often see and like what

372

you think where we should really get to?

373

Chelly: It's really tough because it's

like when the first came to mind was

374

like the balance between business and

human beings and where to strike that

375

balance I feel is always where especially

this is speaking from a perspective of

376

HR is seen as a strategic like partner

within the organization because if

377

you're a strategic partner, that means

that is the tight rope that you walk

378

is trying to balance those things.

379

And so I think in a perfect world and

in the future, especially with how

380

much things are changing with I know we

talked about a little bit earlier with

381

coming into play as well, too, which in

theory should relieve some of those admin

382

duties at some point, which means that

it should be evolving into HR being more

383

from that strategic side and connecting

to the business side as well too.

384

And once again, I want to be very specific

with my words because there are a lot

385

of HR professionals who do have that

business mindset as well, but they do

386

miss the boat on the human aspect and

being able to handle things with empathy

387

and being able to balance business

continuity, but also understanding like

388

human experience and what's happening.

389

And so it's like trying to blend

most of those things, which I think

390

is exactly where HR needs to go.

391

Because if anything, like when we

talked about the last four years,

392

especially within just from the

US side, life is not letting up.

393

And it's not going to.

394

If anything, the last five years have

shown us from just the rapid changes

395

in administration, the pandemic,

unemployment, all these things and

396

stuff like life is not going to stop.

397

And people need to be able, they

can't leave all of that at the door.

398

They can't leave whatever it is that there

needs to be a balance and a flexibility

399

there where people can do both.

400

They can balance the needs of their

life and also the needs of the

401

business, whether that's you being a

parent, a caregiver, you're navigating

402

your own health issues and whatnot.

403

There needs to be able to strike

a balance to where you're able to

404

maintain business continuity, but

still have that respect for employees

405

and that empathy for the things that

so many people are going through.

406

This has been a fantastic

conversation so far.

407

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

408

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

409

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

410

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

411

can all thrive in the age of ai.

412

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

413

community.

414

Now back to the show.

415

Thomas: I love that you brought the

example on the other side of the pendulum,

416

because that is a reality too, right?

417

Which is, it's like, we're so business

focused that actually is detrimental

418

eventually to the business, but like

where, if you're not treating employees

419

like people, because you're just like

focused on the numbers, ultimately

420

that will have an eroding impact on

your culture and your talent density

421

and ability to attract as an employer

brand of a place, a destination

422

for top talent, which will impact

business just a long lead time.

423

So it's important to

balance that aspect as well.

424

I hear you loud and clear on that.

425

But you also mentioned, okay, like

maybe these things will evolve so we can

426

focus more on that and get rid of some

of the administrative levels of things.

427

But let's talk about AI a

little bit more because first

428

there's promise, there's peril.

429

But when we're talking earlier, Chelly

you're talking about just sometimes

430

it's Kafka-esque comes to mind.

431

And then you were telling me about

your experience of AI bots for people.

432

And obviously it's put in place from a

talent acquisition standpoint by other

433

colleagues of ours in HR itself, right?

434

And the talent acquisition side

and other kind of companies.

435

Tell me about what overall with bots

and first round interviews and just the

436

interview processes and how it's evolving,

maybe with both these elements, right?

437

You're like the human in this case, an

HR professional looking to get their

438

next role, but as well as like on the

talent acquisition HR side, why or

439

why would you not use these tools?

440

Chelly: Oh, man.

441

And that's a tough balance as well, too.

442

Because we were talking before, like I

had a friend who she's been actively job

443

searching, I think for since January.

444

So it's almost been like 10 months now.

445

And she called me as soon as she got

off the phone or texted me and was

446

like, I just interviewed with an AI bot.

447

And I thought she was joking.

448

Like I literally, I think wrote

back laughing emojis and was

449

just like, but how did it go?

450

And she was like, no, like

his name was AI Brandon.

451

And I interviewed with an AI bot.

452

And I was like that, I was literally

that emoji where like the brain explodes.

453

Like for me, like I can't grasp that.

454

I would have to learn about that more

as to what the company is like seeking

455

to get out of that or what, yeah, what

information do they think they're going

456

to get from somebody like having them go

through an AI bot like interview round?

457

Because to me that from an employee

perspective or from a user perspective

458

and a candidate perspective, it seems

like that would be a turnoff because of.

459

The lack of human connection and

it's like you're asking somebody to

460

dedicate their time to come interview

with your company and you send an AI.

461

But I almost equate it to say right

now when we were talking about me

462

coming on the podcast and all of

a sudden I came on and it was like

463

you and like your firefly notes.

464

Thomas: Sometimes people accuse me of

that anyway and they're not sure but

465

i'd like to think it's pretty clear.

466

Hope you can hear it in the voices

coming out, but that's going to that

467

same trade-off, like you said, because

whatever the company and whatever

468

industry, wherever they're at, there's

got to be a talent acquisition or HR

469

leader, a professional who is like

trying to do more with less and saying,

470

oh gosh, we got to fix this pipeline.

471

We've got to oh, look, here's a solution

that can get us more efficient and we

472

can get to like our stage three of our

interview pipeline more efficiently.

473

So let's try this out.

474

Chelly: Yeah.

475

You were supposed to have a

hundred people hired yesterday.

476

So let's do, so it's like you get

the both sides and it's like, where

477

is that middle to where people,

because in the recruiting process,

478

that's the first part of the employee

life cycle is the candidate process.

479

That's your first experience and

interaction with that company.

480

So it's pretty important.

481

Like I said, I feel like from my

opinion, I would have to understand

482

more of what that company would, what

they were looking to get out of it.

483

Like, what are they hoping to

achieve in order to be like, okay,

484

I got information here in order

to move them to the next round.

485

But from face value, it just looks

like it lacks like a human touch.

486

And I think that's also something to

point out as well is with AI being

487

implemented into all these different HR

functions, there still needs to be an

488

element of human oversight or human touch.

489

Because AI also brings in everything

from the internet and search, which means

490

it's going to bring in bias as well, too.

491

So there's some things where I think some

people may be jumping the gun and trying

492

to use AI as a complete like replacement,

where it just needs to be used as a tool.

493

And so making sure to actually go

through whatever it is, like Six Sigma

494

process planning, all that type of

stuff, and finding those checkpoints

495

where that human oversight can be while

still saving yourself time, maybe from

496

the actual manual labor of it there.

497

But there needs to be those guardrails up.

498

Thomas: Yeah.

499

And depending on the market,

you'll get some signal quickly.

500

So if this particular company is turning

off a lot of seasoned professionals

501

through their hiring process, they're

going to find that it's harder to

502

convert and others will find that it's

actually, it weirdly, it could be a

503

competitive advantage if someone is

talking to a great candidate and it's

504

like a real person, especially like a

few years from now, it's, whoa, okay.

505

You're like serious about me.

506

And I already, you're like set up to

convert better, like from day one,

507

if this becomes more of the norm.

508

Similar to how I think some remote

and hybrid companies are able to

509

have a competitive advantage by

offering that as a flexibility

510

for their employees versus others.

511

It's just like a, it's just like a

leg up in that recruiting funnel.

512

Chelly: You know,

something else as well too.

513

So this is something that my organization

went through and like it was actually

514

they had published and wrote about it

and stuff is that also it's another side

515

of the balance of human oversight and

navigating this new world is that there's

516

also people doing deep fakes to interview.

517

And there's people who are getting

like hired on as deep fakes.

518

They're going through

rounds with human people.

519

So it's even, are getting

like hired on as deepfaked.

520

They're going through

rounds with human people.

521

So it's even, they're still having

that human checkpoint and they're doing

522

like AI deepfakes in order to make

it through certain interview rounds.

523

My organization had posted about

it because they actually had hired

524

somebody named, I think Kyle, who

had deepfaked as a different person.

525

And it actually ended up being

like, I think like a hacker or

526

something like that as well too.

527

And so that's another thing that,

you know, yeah, that I feel like laws

528

haven't caught up with AI that we're

still out in like the wild west, which

529

also makes me feel like, I feel like

it'll be such a, I use fun loosely,

530

but I feel like it'll be actually,

I'll change the word to interesting.

531

I think it'll be such an interesting

time to be alive, like five to 10

532

years from now to see like the data

that comes out from like the release

533

of ChatGPT and AI to see all of this

stuff for that has came up from us

534

essentially being in the wild west for

the last few years with all the different

535

things that are coming up with AI.

536

Thomas: Absolutely.

537

It's interesting times, right?

538

So you mentioned that, hey, probably

there's going to be this evolution of HR

539

where you're going to be less focused on

maybe administrative elements of the role

540

and other aspects which can level you up

to being more strategic as a function,

541

which is really what you're imagining

most people and most functions should be

542

moving towards, assuming that you have

the buy-in and that's both the branding

543

and the expectations that have been

set with the rest of the organization.

544

So we talked about that and how

AI could potentially play a role.

545

And then we went into this one example

where it's, that's something theoretically

546

around interviewing, but it's probably

an example, at least from your

547

perspective of not a good balance, right?

548

Not actually going in there.

549

So I wanted to ask you, what do you

think are good use cases across the

550

various things that you're working

on in an HR department that could be

551

good use cases of AI coming in and

trying to relieve the load in the

552

right way with the right balance?

553

Chelly: Oh, I feel like there's so

many administrative aspects to HR

554

that could be like used for that.

555

I know for me, when I think

back to my days, because I used

556

to be like an HR coordinator,

557

HR admin, like all those

things as well, too.

558

Like definitely the benefits side I

could see being used because you're

559

having to do a lot of stuff related

to billing, things related to payroll,

560

stuff where you're having to make sure

things that balance out as well too.

561

Also being able to use it as a tool,

even for like strategic communication.

562

HR always, I feel like plays a tiny role,

especially in internal communication as

563

well, which is, and I say that loosely.

564

I feel like the communications department

is probably being hit even worse with AI

565

right now, with people probably thinking

that they could go into ChatGPT and draft

566

something that is appropriate and not

have gone through communication schools.

567

I say that loosely of how it could help

without pissing off my communications.

568

Thomas: I think from an internal

communication standpoint, what I'm seeing

569

is like that is it's shifting to be a

skill set versus a role, specifically

570

internal communication I'm talking about.

571

That might be something that is

part of the remit for the HR team.

572

Sometimes it's with comms for most

organizations seem to be part of the

573

HR team and it's just the HR generalist

or somebody along with tools is more

574

responsible for that versus it's

becoming more relative luxury to have

575

a trained communications, internal

communications professional on the team.

576

And it's like one of the many

doing more with less things

577

that HR has taken on, right?

578

Chelly: No, exactly.

579

And that's difficult because I know just

from having one of my best friends is

580

in communications and like she's able

to see things through a different lens

581

and I'm not because it's like they go

through the psychology of writing and

582

how people will interpret like even

down to certain words and stuff so it's

583

I can see how their area is struggling

as well too because what you said doing

584

more with less so it's let's put it

with HR give them ChatGPT or whatever

585

and see how it goes but I guarantee you

some organizations that probably I can't

586

think of any off the top of my head but

I'm sure if we were to Google it they

587

probably ended up in the news because of

it with some type of misstep, some type of

588

misword and things like that as well too.

589

I think being able to use AI to whether

or not it's for communications, even

590

in process alignment as well too.

591

I've seen people, I have like friends

who are starting organizations who

592

are using AI for even compensation.

593

Like they built out a whole

compensation tool and figuring out

594

performance management feedback,

595

like using some type of AI prompt

and practice to go through there.

596

I've seen some of those where basically

it's almost like a guide where you can

597

give like people managers like certain

prompts they can walk through for

598

performance management to help them have

those conversations and even for training

599

as well, too, using some AI for training.

600

And like I said, there needs to be

human-centric oversight over any

601

of those things and touch points.

602

But I do see that's how AI would help

some of those areas and functions.

603

Thomas: You went through so

many different conversations.

604

Chelly: Let's do that real quick, Thomas.

605

My bad.

606

Thomas: No, that's great.

607

But I guess that's the thing.

608

Once you get going, you can imagine

there's a lot of use cases and ways

609

to apply it into the day to day.

610

But I think the perspective I'm hearing

is like caution around how you do it.

611

Right.

612

And just it seems like the no brainer

is all the middle steps where you're

613

actually getting efficiency around what

you're doing, but then the end user

614

experience or the next step, whether

it's a PowerPoint presentation or like

615

a meeting with internal stakeholders or

an email back with, here's the answer

616

to the specific process for an employee.

617

That part is maybe specific.

618

Still, you're still getting to that

with human oversight, but all the

619

middle steps in between, you can look

at like a bunch of efficiencies, right?

620

A compensation, you're not

going to like to finance it.

621

This is exactly what our compensation

plan should be based on the output

622

directly of aI, but you might have

that as one of the steps, right?

623

As you analyze and figure

out what you want to do next.

624

So if you have...

625

Chelly: We'll say though real quick

on top of that because something just

626

came to my mind as like a disclaimer

out of all the hr functions and stuff

627

as we were like recapping that is do

not use AI at all for employment law.

628

Do not use AI for talking about

ADA, for talking about FMLA or

629

talking about any type of employee

relations laws that could be broken.

630

Employment law lawyers

should not be replaced.

631

You need to go talk to somebody

because a lot of the times AI doesn't

632

have the up-to-date things or they'll

even advise things that are illegal.

633

And so that still needs to guard rail.

634

So that's the one section of HR.

635

Do not use AI for employment law.

636

Thomas: Yeah, fair.

637

And we also, at least from

your perspective, uncovered

638

the interviewing, right?

639

Although that's in talent

acquisition, it is significantly

640

used, arguably abused, right?

641

In the talent acquisition funnel.

642

But there's a couple of good examples.

643

But I would argue even there, you

644

could be doing your own research and

coming to the table with specific

645

questions for a lawyer that could make

that conversation more efficient, but

646

you're still like referring to them.

647

And, but then you're saying, is it, or

is this law like outdated with a link

648

that can actually maybe reduce the

hours for that expensive hourly rate?

649

Chelly: That is expensive.

650

Thomas: To be fair.

651

Yeah.

652

There is like that kind of like we were

talking about with internal comms, right?

653

There's that, there's almost that urge

to let's just cut this out entirely

654

and let's just go with the tool and

it's cheaper and this person can do it.

655

But you really should be thoughtful about

which what you're like having the tool as

656

part of the process to enable the expert

right for the sub area, whether it's

657

benefits or payroll or whatever it is,

obviously, employee relations or whatever

658

it is, obviously, employee relations.

659

Let me just ask you to dream a little bit.

660

We talk about so many different areas

where there's potential for shifts.

661

As you look ahead, where do

you see just a ton of friction?

662

What comes to mind where you feel

like, okay, this has to be, and we

663

would all welcome it, taken over

and made automated, efficient, done

664

without us needing to spend the time?

665

What comes to mind?

666

Chelly: Man, it has to be taken over.

667

I'm trying to think of like the, I

feel like this will only be like lingo

668

translated to people in the weeds, but

I'm like anything related to box 12, like

669

benefits, like filling that stuff out

at the end of the year for people's W.

670

Like four W-2 all those type of things

and just those like heavy lifting I feel

671

like of those ai aspects don't i feel

like a lot of those like repetitive tasks

672

as well too like when i think of like

repetitive i think of having to do like

673

I-9 forms and stuff like that as well.

674

But once again, I don't I

think you still need human

675

oversight for an element of that.

676

You're verifying someone's ID and whatnot.

677

But I think just those type of

like really in the weed type.

678

And when I think of those, I

think of the benefits aspect.

679

Because that's like how much

admin is involved in that.

680

Or even the HRIS aspect, like figuring

out how that helps with reporting

681

and being able to use it as a tool.

682

I stand tall on stuff not being

completely overhauled by AI, but

683

maybe I just need to get there.

684

But...

685

Thomas: wouldn't say that you seem like

open it, but you're just like mapping,

686

calling out the trade-offs, right?

687

There's always trade-offs

with any kind of technology.

688

So then

689

Chelly: I'm like, Hey

guys, it's a reminder.

690

Humans need to be here.

691

Thomas: Yeah.

692

Don't forget us.

693

Just to close out here then, if you look

ahead, Chelly, what do you think are

694

the, and kind of we're circling back to

teams, like the current job market, but

695

if you kind of look ahead into the future.

696

What do you think are the skills

that will separate resilient HR

697

teams from the rest going forward?

698

How can in other words, we

future-proof our HR function?

699

Chelly: Oh, know this is probably going

to sound generic, but this is always what

700

comes with and what's needed with change.

701

That's the number one rule in life

is that there always will be change.

702

So that's probably why what I'm about

to say does sound generic, but it's

703

like, you need to be able to adapt.

704

You need to be able to get through,

like in change management, there's

705

something called like the J-curve.

706

You need to be able to ride that straight

out and keep navigating the different

707

change that comes with it and have the

adaptability, but also like the growth

708

mindset aspect that comes with it.

709

Like being able to navigate

the chaos that will ensue.

710

And the thing of it is chaos will ensue

because that's what happens is that

711

you're always going, especially within HR,

where you're managing people and people

712

emotions, there's always going to be

people on different sides of the scale.

713

There's going to be people who

are like, I hate this change.

714

I don't want to ever do this

change be stagnant in the change.

715

There's going to be people who

are like, I've been waiting for

716

this change since yesterday.

717

Where have you been with this?

718

And then there's going to

be people in the middle.

719

And you have to be able to navigate

all aspects of those people.

720

You have to be able to de-center yourself.

721

And that's one of my number one rules

in HR is especially when you're dealing

722

with diverse employee population and just

different personalities at the table is

723

that you need to de-center yourself and

understand where other people are coming

724

from and how they may react and yeah, how

they may receive change and how they may

725

react to change and be able to anticipate

like some of those behaviors to help

726

people feel safe enough, psychologically

safe enough to take that lead.

727

Because if you don't change, you'll

end up getting left behind and

728

especially from a business perspective.

729

And so what is it that you need to do

or organization needs to do in order to

730

make people feel safe taking that leap?

731

And that's, like I said, decentering

yourself, understanding the

732

human aspect and the fear and the

uncertainty that comes with change.

733

And being able to make that and having

the growth mindset to be able to adapt

734

to whatever's occurring around you.

735

Thomas: Could you help educate me on

the J-curve with change management?

736

Because I feel like it sounds

like it's very much central

737

to what you're talking about.

738

And you're, I think, talking about

on a dual basis, change for the HR

739

leader who is going to be experiencing

new processes, technologies, demands

740

from the organization, but also to

enable change and meet people where

741

they're at or in different parts of

their journey and being able to be

742

sensitive to that as opposed to that.

743

I think that's what you're talking

about with the de-centering,

744

but tell me about the J-curve.

745

Chelly: So with the J-curve,

it's just a standard, like I've

746

changed management, like picture.

747

So literally as I'm drawing it out,

it's like you're picturing almost

748

a J and it's like where people

start out with change and then the

749

people and like businesses as well.

750

So it's like, they'll start out with the

change and because they're navigating the

751

change, like business, like productivity,

whatever it is, it will end up going down

752

because people are navigating the change.

753

They're trying to learn something new.

754

They're trying to get used to

whatever this new system, this

755

new product, this new process.

756

So it's going to take time because

there's going to be a learning curve.

757

Everybody can't sit through one

webinar, sit through one training

758

and then be like, I'm a pro in this.

759

For me, I know that I learn best when

I'm physically doing something, when

760

I'm in the weeds, figuring it out.

761

That's how I remember, but you're not

going to get it right the first time.

762

So that's why as an organization,

as a group of people, you're going

763

to go in that downward curve first

because not everyone's going to get it.

764

But then once people start getting

it and start getting on the same

765

page, that's when productivity

can like resume and starts.

766

You're going to see, was

this change worth it?

767

Basically, did we make it to

the other side and productivity

768

surpassed what we were doing before?

769

If that makes sense.

770

Thomas: Absolutely.

771

It's the concept that you're

investing and you're in a negative

772

territory for some time because

you're investing in that change.

773

But then if it's done right and

you've made the right bet, then you're

774

going to be coming out exponentially

better than where you started.

775

Okay.

776

Thank you for going through that with me.

777

That's like a transformation that can

apply to so many different aspects

778

in this case with both taking on a

new skillset within the HR realm or

779

enabling an entire organization where,

you know, everyone is doing a lot more

780

change management these days than the

usage is becoming much more central

781

to the value that an HR team can add.

782

But thank you, Chelly, for

this awesome conversation.

783

I think there's so much ground we covered,

starting with just the reality of the

784

labor market for HR talent at this moment.

785

And I think you had some

wise yet restrained words

786

of advice and encouragement.

787

And it's often about your own mindset,

which is, I think, an important nod to the

788

reality that people are facing out there.

789

But then it was interesting to go

through a lot of the potential and the

790

peril with AI and how lot of us are

navigating that in our organizations.

791

thank you for sharing this conversation.

792

And for everyone out there who is

looking to future-proof their own

793

organizations and their own HR functions.

794

Hope you found some value in

this conversation as I did.

795

And this is me signing

off with Future Proof HR.

796

See ya.

797

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

798

If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

799

review on the platform you're

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800

Or share this with a friend or colleague

who may find value in the message.

801

See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age on AI.