The modern workplace now contains an unprecedented five generations of workers, with very different ideas about leadership and the importance of authenticity.  In the last few years we have experienced The Great Resignation, Quiet Quitting and the rise of employees at all levels leaving their 9 to 5 to start their own business. 

In this episode of ADHD-ish,  I welcome returning guest Ruth Rathblott to discuss these challenges and the need for self-awareness and connection in the workplace. 

Many of us are hiding and others might be sharing too much.  What are the rules and how do we know what to do if what we want is to feel safe, do our best work and experience genuine belonging? 

In this empowering episode, Ruth and I talk about the transformation that occurs when people start "unhiding"—openly sharing their stories and building stronger, more authentic connections. This mutual sharing not only creates a sense of belonging but can also significantly reduce feelings of isolation and burnout, issues all too common in the modern workplace. 

🔑 Key Takeaways:

Generational Leadership:  How younger workers demand for transparency is reshaping traditional leadership styles.

Strategic Hiding: The delicate balance of revealing personal aspects at work while ensuring safety and authenticity.

The Framework of Hiding: Ruth explains her four types of “hiders”, breaking down the different ways we hide, and why we do so

Psychological Safety: We break down the importance of fostering environments where authenticity thrives and human connections deepen.

Mentioned in this episode:  The Big Leap 

Who is Ruth Rathblott? 

Ruth Rathblott is a TedX and keynote speaker, DEI consultant and best selling author and advocate.  Her work is both deeply personal and also universal.  Born with a limb difference, Ruth learned to hide in high school and continued to do so for 25 years, until realizing the true cost of “fitting in” instead of genuinely belonging. 

Ruth and I both have a Masters Degree in social work, love margaritas and Mexican food and travel and share the belief that diversity and inclusivity enriches all of our lives. 

Want to connect with Ruth Rathblott?

Website  - LinkedIn - Instagram - Ruth’s TedX Talk - Ruth’s New Book 

Ruth’s First Interview with me

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H: Ruth, I am so delighted to reconnect with you as a returning guest. The first time you were here, we talked about your first book Single Handedly. And today we're going to be talking about your second book Unhide and Seek. But I would like to start with this because something I know about you and we've talked about in the past is that we are both by experience, education, and licensing social workers and social workers are really all about empowering other people. And I just find it fascinating when I think about your story, how you've become an author, a speaker, a consultant, all about unhiding in order to belong and connect. And yet as a social worker, it's like you had to come full circle from them to you to them.

G: Absolutely. I think social work is one of the most underrated degrees you can get because they really do focus on the whole person. They focus on strength based, resiliency, and they also, Diann, require you to think about yourself in terms of there's a lot of work that you do before you actually see clients. Like, what's the, how are you thinking about your own journey? And yet, when you're deep in hiding, there's a space that you're not really, showing up as your full self for your clients and for your communities that you're working, the missions you're trying to move forward. I think that's the piece of full circle that I came to was, yes, I'm doing all this amazing work advocating on behalf of others, really digging deep, and, yep, what was I not sharing about myself? What was I not understanding about myself? And that's a huge part of social work.

H: For the people that missed our first conversation on this podcast, and I will certainly link to it in the show notes because after you listen to this one, you definitely wanna go back and listen to that one. You were hiding a significant thing about yourself for a great many years and I think to really connect with what we're gonna be talking about today, which is all the different ways that people hide and why it's beneficial to unhide and, how to do so. Can we talk a little bit about your personal story of unhiding?

G: Sure. So my story started when I was going to a new school and, Diann, for some of us, when you start something new, whether it's a new school, a new job, moving to a new community, there's a feeling of wanting to fit in right? The feeling of wanting to make friends, wanting to connect with others. And I think that need to fit in gets magnified when you're in high school, when you're going to a new high school right? Your adolescence is kind of the typical time when you individuate from your parents and you wanna fit in with your family and with your friends and for me, that was true. I was heading to a new high school and someone stared just a little bit too long and noticed my hand.

I was for your listeners, I was born with a limb difference. I was born missing my left hand. And I had never really thought about hiding it before, and yet this stare and kind of a mumbling I could see of someone looking at it, I immediately just tucked it into my pocket and I had no idea that that little small act, I think many of us do this right? We have a small act that we do just to cover part of ourselves, would turn into a huge, lifetime of hiding. Because that hiding, that first moment of in my pocket ended up being 25 years of hiding in my pocket, my hand from everyone, from friends, from new acquaintances, from dating relationships, Diann. So I was constantly hiding.

H: You had well, one of the things I know about you, Ruth, is that you're very resourceful, and I can just we could probably do a whole follow-up episode on all the clever ways you can hide something about yourself, even in intimate moments, if you have a mind to do so. But one of the things I think is really fascinating about you and about your story and about your evolution is that it wasn't until you were, like, 14, 15 that you ever even thought that there would be a reason to hide. I think that's really unusual because and maybe it's because you had really good parents, probably had really good parents, really good support that most people intuitively from a very early age think different is bad, different is wrong, different is less than. And it never even occurred to you until high school, which I find really exceptional.

G: Yeah, no, I had great parents. I had parents who encouraged me to do everything, to take every chance, every risk, try different things, whether it was sports or gymnastics or, theater. Like, my parents encouraged me to try everything. I wasn't good at everything, but they encouraged me to try everything and I think that's a piece. One of the pieces though that I've realized in that journey, and I talk with parents about this a lot, Diann, is how do you also open up communication because there it was different right?

And so how do you allow for the challenges that come along with differences, whether it's visible differences like mine, a physical difference, or to your point around neurodiversity and neurodivergence or mental health? How do we allow space for conversations when things aren't so tough? Because part of the journey also, and I'll tell you Diann is, in my hiding in that moment and as a teenager when I started hiding, I thought I was the only one that was different. I thought I was the only one that was hiding. And what's fascinating is most of us, I have found, are hiding something about ourselves. How do we learn to unhide? How do we learn? Because hiding itself is exhausting. It's lonely.

H: It's Alienating.

G: Alienating. It's and you're constantly guarded. You're forecasting how you're gonna be found out because hiding, it comes from a fear. It comes from fear right? Fear of rejection, a fear of judgment, fear of retaliation. And so that hiding is for me, it started out as a safety mechanism like, I did it to protect myself, and that's healthy right? I didn't know about the knowledge that other people were hiding. I didn't know that there was support. I didn't know about some of the skills that you could use to unhide, but so I spent 25 years hiding and it allowed it's exhausting. It takes a mental toll on us, a physical toll, and it also keeps us feeling disconnected from ourselves and from other people.

H: One of the things I learned when I read the book, The Big Leap, which I probably do talk about way too often, is that every single person with very few exceptions believes that they are fundamentally flawed.

G: Yes.

H: In some way, shape, or form and it could be in your case because you have a limb difference, in my case because I'm neurodivergent. It could be sometimes people think they have a fundamental flaw because they're the only one in the family with red hair or they are the they're the less smart one than their siblings. It doesn't matter what it is. They have light skin and everyone in their family has darker skin. It just doesn't matter. Everybody thinks they have a fundamental flaw. They're to this or not enough that regardless of accomplishments, regardless of positive feedback, regardless of awesome parenting.

And when you combine that with the fact that we also think we're the only one who thinks that way, just I refer to it as living life at arm's length. It's like there's a buffer between you and not only every other person, but between you and yourself and the full expression of yourself. And that is the banner that you are waving loud and proud that you're not the only one and it's costing you far more than it's protecting you.

G: A hundred percent and, Diann, I would even add on to it. There are some messages that we get externally, right, about those things that we think are about ourselves that are different. There are messages we get about beauty that this doesn't fit in, whether it's disability, whether it's ethnicity, whether it's gender, whether it's sexual orientation. Like, we get messages about things externally, and then we internalize some of those messages, and we're not what I found is we're not always the most reliable narrators right? Like, so we translate that internally, and then it becomes we are alone in this. Nobody else is feeling different.

Nobody else and we don't always talk about that space. So that's the flag that I'm wearing is and waving is this idea of how do we create space so that people can bring their best selves forward? Not even their authentic selves, Diann, but how do they bring their best selves forward so they can ask for support? They can ask for they can rewrite some of the narratives in their head. How do we create that space? Because we're all walking around like this, and yet we often think, again, we're alone in this journey, and we're not. We can't do this single handedly.

H: No, that's why I no you're I mean, I think you are really eloquent, obviously, but you're also very clever. And I think the titles of your books are just chef's kiss and so very clever. I think one of the points that I love about, the second book is that what we've been talking about so far, Ruth, is like, okay. Alright, I get it. You're not broken and you're not alone, and you're missing out, and you're not able to connect with people. You're not able to belong. But you also talk a lot about how it's act the hiding itself is actually inhibiting your performance as well as your potential. It's not only about connecting and it's why this is so important in the workplace.

H: Yes. Yes. It holds us back. It holds us back, and I have so many examples in the second book of this idea of how does it hold you back? Because I had someone who came up to me after one of my speaking opportunities and gigs and said, I don't talk in meetings because and I've heard this several times whether it's a stutter or whether it's an accent, Diann. And they said, I don't talk in meetings. Well, now you've impacted 3 levels right? Because you're worried that someone's gonna find out about that thing that's different about you, your stutter or your accent. So that's you're constantly kind of thinking about that.

You're not actually present for the meeting. So you're not showing up as your best self because you're worried about someone finding out. The team is then making assumptions about you based on you not participating right? So they're thinking, oh, how come this person's not never has any good ideas? How come they always wanna leave the meeting early? How come they don't come to the happy hours after work that we have? They never they're not really a team player. They're not they're not a good culture fit right? We hear that a lot.

H: All the time.

G: And so you're impacting the team and how they're seeing you without even realizing it sometimes because teams we make assumptions about people, right, based on behavior and actions. And then you're also impacting the organization and leadership because leadership maybe isn't seeing you as someone to promote because you don't have those good ideas. You're not you don't have the vision because you're not sharing it because of that concern. And the organization isn't getting the best out of you. They're not getting your innovation. They're not getting your creativity. So it impacts us in the workplace because it keeps us feeling disconnected from our teams and from our peers and from ourselves and from our ideas and so it holds us back. And that's the game that I'm trying to shift is how do we create cultures where people feel safe? Because there is a big piece of psychological safety to this.

H: I'm so glad you said that.

G: Yeah, for people to feel safe. And I will add on, I would argue, it also starts with leadership because we've talked a lot about people bringing their, quote, unquote, authentic selves to work. I'm not totally sure we're set up for that in the workplace because we don't have the supports or the coaches and the therapists that it might require. And leaders need to be willing to go first. It's a two way street. Employees and leaders need to meet each other, but leaders need to model this. They need to share parts of their journey of where it may have been challenging. Or and I learned that to your point around, keeping people at arm's length. I was a leader who sometimes understood the old school mentality of leadership of keeping people at arm's length, needing to have all of the answers, needing to, feel like I couldn't share pieces of myself. And that worked for some people, and for some people, I missed them along the journey.

H: No. This is really, really excellent stuff because, truly, we have to make the decision as individuals to show more of ourselves, to unhide ourselves in order to make the contributions that we're able to make, to not just fit in, which often requires sort of lopping off things about yourself that you don't think will be acceptable or you've been given feedback are not acceptable. But people are not going to do this no matter how much you or I may advocate and even coach and help them, unless our workplace culture and frankly our society evolves to the point where there is psychological safety to do so. So you're absolutely right, it needs to be both individual and systemic. Because you do a lot of consulting and a lot of speaking, and your focus is not strictly on individuals, but on society and culture and workplace culture at large. Where do you think we are at least in the US at this point? Because a lot's changed in just a few years.

And remind you, right, we've been through COVID, so we know what hiding can look like with turned off cameras and muted microphones and blurred backgrounds and the number is 60%. 60% of people are hiding. So the number hasn't shifted a lot and I still argue with that number because I think it's more like what audiences think, which is that 80, 90, a 100%. Because we're all hiding something, and yet who's brave enough to say they're hiding right? Like, that's part of that study. And so I think where I've seen movement to your point is around employee resource groups being able to be a safe space for some to share their experiences and to find others because I know that was an important step in my journey of unhiding. I think that there's leadership that's now HR and talent management and unconscious bias training are starting to bring up some of this.

My fear is there's been a huge backlash against diversity, equity, and inclusion, and belonging. So I think it we're I'm not sure how to keep navigating some of this with, those pieces being taken away. Like, we're finding different ways right? I do think there's an openness, especially after COVID and the pandemic, to start talking about mental health in different ways that we hadn't seen before so I think there's movement there. So the answer to your question is there's some good news and there's some bad news in this, and we have to keep fighting. There's still a North Star of how do we create a culture where people feel like they're seen and valued and that their different experiences and different perspectives are valued. That's the goal. That's the North Star.

H: I know people are talking about it, but not all the right people are talking to each other about it. And I'm wondering before we start getting into the different types of hiders, because I think your framework is really, really helpful in helping people to identify themselves because no matter how self aware we are, anything that really taps into our vulnerability is sometimes hidden even from us. So couple of thoughts, 1, how much of it do you think is generational? Meaning, you know, older generations in in top leadership making decisions versus younger generations kind of getting promoted up the food chain, but maybe not quite where they are in a position of both responsibility and authority to create these kind of changes.

G: Yes. I think that's an excellent point. I think the generational piece is real. I probably would say 2 things to that. 1 is, I think leaders who've been in positions for a while adopted like I did an old school leadership mentality right? For a lot that's how we were taught. There was not the sense of you need to build connection in the same way or belonging in that same in that part of sharing part of yourself. I think the younger generation that's coming up, the newer to the workforce, leaders are demanding it right? They are wanting the transparency. They're wanting the connection. I think COVID also showed us where some of the gaps of feeling connected were. And it's not just always having to be in person, but how do we really connect with people?

H: This reminds me of years ago when I was in social work administration and I was teaching a bunch of relatively new therapists in a medical center how to observe certain things. And my point in this particular talk was about unconscious bias. And so I presented what they thought was a case study. And I talked about a certain person and their circumstances and their challenges and strengths. And I said, okay, what are your thoughts about this person? What are your thoughts about their level of education? What are your thoughts about their income? What are your thoughts about their lifestyle? Are they gay? Are they straight? Are they married? And so forth. And I heard all these different things. And then I said, how many of you would be surprised to know that the person I've been talking about is me?

I was ready for it then, they were not. And I realized when I go back, okay, maybe I could have framed it a little bit differently, but I was trying to teach about unconscious bias. But I think it would have been better to use someone else as an example because there was a power differential. I was the administrator, they reported to me. And to your point about old school, I think at that point, it was like, I was chafing at the bit with old school, but they had all been brought up in the workplace to expect that from their leaders. So when I breached that, it was like, what's happening here? And now it would probably be much more welcomed at least by some.

G: Well, because they'd see you as vulnerable. They'd see you as human and that's really what this practice is centered around is this idea of human humanity right? Like, how do we show up and share a part of ourselves because that's how we really connect. And I think in some ways, what you're talking about, I guess, it's definitely self acceptance. It's self awareness. It's also the idea of being a little bit self centered right? Like, thinking about yourself, sharing parts of yourself.

And I do think we also missed a step in DEI work because I think that unconscious bias, even though some people brought that into trainings, Diann, early, one of the things I noticed that was missing from it is really the self awareness piece right? The acknowledgment of how are you different? How what is your understanding of difference for yourself? Because in order to really understand others, we need to understand ourselves first. We need to understand where we felt different, just to tune into that. And that goes across all lenses of diversity, that's what I where I spend my time.

H: It's also never really been part of any leadership training that I've been great and it's never been an expectation.

G: Right and yet we're expecting leaders to I mean and what's interesting about the Deloitte study is they also share that the higher that you get in leadership, the more hiding shows up, the more covering because there's an overachieving sense right? There's an overcompensating piece. There's a fear of trust, not wanting not trusting what people will do with that information. I had someone, Diann, share with me. At one point, they said, oh, Ruth, I love the work you're doing. I think it's great, and I will never unhide to my team and I said, what? Why? And she's like, I don't trust them and I said, well, isn't that bad? Because, a, we spend so much time in the workspace, and, b, either they have the wrong leader or you have the wrong team because we spend way too much time with our teams. We should be and yet how are they connecting with us, and how come they can't see part of our challenges or flaws or the things where we may have wrestled with so that they do see us, to your point, as being human.

H: Cool. And my curiosity would want me to do a follow-up question with that person of saying, so is that this trust issue exclusively in the workplace? Because reality, it might simply be this individual's perception that their team is not trustworthy when in fact, when you're not willing to test an assumption out, there's absolutely no way to find out.

G: And it goes back to being sometimes unreliable narrators, right, in our own minds. The stories that we've told ourselves about it. And maybe parts of it are true right? There could be team members who aren't trustworthy that will retaliate or use that information against you. It's about that's why it's strategic in terms of how we and strategic on how we hide.

H: I like the intentionality and the skill of that. So we've been talking about hiding, unhiding the impact, the benefits. You've created a framework where there are specific ways that we can recognize, oh, I didn't think this applied to me, but I think I'm this one. Let's talk about the 4 different types of hiders that you have identified.

G: Sure. So it they came from, Diann, this idea when I talk about this globally around this idea of hiding, this concept of hiding. There are 4 reactions I get. The first is, I know exactly what you're talking about, Ruth. You don't need to define hiding for me. I know what hiding is like, I do it in my life right? Whether it's my age, whether it's my religion, whether it's my family background, my education, I hide a part of myself to fit in. It's out of that fear of rejection and judgment. The second type is the person who's curious, who says, you know, I I've never thought about this before. I wonder what I'm hiding, am I hiding anything? So it's curiosity, I call it the wanderer. The third is and maybe Diann, you've met them because I sure have, who says, yeah, I'm not hiding anything.

Like, I'm an open book. If anything, I overshare a part of myself right? That idea of and sometimes it gets me in trouble because I share too much. I probably shouldn't share so much. That person is still hiding because they're curating a narrative of what they want you to hear right? They're not always going deeper with some of the things they might not wanna share. They're sharing what they need you to see. So that's that open book and then the last type is somebody that, while I was writing the book, I actually had the fortune of meeting on an elevator, which I call the fortress. Because it's the person who may come into one of our sessions, Diann, maybe it's part of your audience, though I am not so sure, who's sitting there being like, why is this important to talk about? Why should we unhide at work?

Why do we need to share part of ourselves at work? I'm not I don't get this. I don't wanna get this, this is not important. And they're almost like their arms are folded. The person I met on an elevator said, do you even think that's real like, that people are hiding. Like, why do we need to know this? And there is a reason we need to know this because part of it is how we show up as ourselves right? How we feel connected to our workplaces, how we feel connected to others, the sense of feeling seen, feeling heard, feeling like we belong, and how we connect as a manager to our teams. That those are really important.

So as I look at the 4 types, it's around how much curiosity do you have to be willing to start to think about that self awareness piece and the awareness of others. Because even if it's not you that's hiding, chances are given the statistics, somebody on your team or in your life that you care about is hiding something. So how do we create that space of curiosity about this? And then what are you willing to reveal? It's almost a scale of how much how curious are you and how much are you willing to reveal.

H: And like you said before, you're not gonna do this overnight. You can start with something that feels safer, easier, and you can ratchet up. Let's talk about the things that really are in nobody's best interest for us to unhide because there are some people that will just go from one extreme to another, and some people, frankly, and I know we both met them, you just wish they would hide a little bit more because it's like, oh, TMI right?

G: Yes. Yes. I think, not an advocate for sharing what people should hide or not hide because I think it's so personal. So I think that's a piece of who do you because there's also a framework that I created, which is are the steps to unhide. So part of it is that first step is acknowledging what it is right? So that's being aware of why are you hiding, how is it holding you back from connecting and thriving, how is it holding you back from belonging. Thinking about that piece. And the second step is then sharing it with one person so it's not broadcast it to the world. They don't need to go on your podcast, Diann, and share their big unhiding secrets, right, with everyone though they could but that's not always feeling safe.

And then the third step is how do you build your community so you're finding others like you with your shared experiences and shared perspectives? And then the last piece is sharing out your story. And when I think about that, Diann, and your question about what should what can people share and not share because sometimes we don't wanna know everything, one of the challenges that I'm still wrestling with is this idea of politics. We share our politics and have it feel safe right? Because sometimes I don't know if you've ever been in a party and people start talking and you don't necessarily share their politics right? And you have a different opinion, but you may hide that for fear of feeling being alienated or judged or rejected if you share that. How do we start just to have conversation around politics? And I'm finding it that's why I'm wrestling with it, I'm finding it really hard right now because I feel that we're so divided. It's so divisive.

H: It's actually really timely because I, live in a community of mostly people my age and, I suspect they're very divided politically, and I suspect we're probably evenly divided. And sometimes people make assumptions about I remember when I was still a therapist, and I had people because I'm white, middle class, middle age, cis, straight, like and they just took one look at me and I look conventionally attractive and relatively conservative in the way I dress and groom myself. And I think this person just thought it was a first session. They just assumed that I was leaning one direction just based on the how I presented and sort of thinking, oh, this person's like me because this is how I present.

And we were on completely different sides of the fence. And they started going into literally, like, stuff that I found really offensive, which first thought was, why is this showing up in a therapy session? And the second thing is because they weren't talking about trauma from their politics or conflict because of their politics. I think they were just sort of maybe they thought they were just doing a little rapport building. And I found myself going, why is this happening here? And what is it about me that's signaling to them that we are more alike than we are? What would you say in a situation like that?

G: I would say it's such a no. It's such a juicy one because I feel like that's hiding right? That's still hiding because you're hiding behind politics. You're hiding behind the facade of what you want someone to see rather than really going into exploring what else is going on inside of you right? Because that's really what therapy is and sometimes we come in, right, with, oh, my life is this way, this way, this way. What's the real issue of what's really and it may have been trying to bond with you because of an assumption that that person made. And it also may be, in addition to it, is the idea of wanting to talk about that surface level stuff rather than actually go deeper right? And understand what's really happening and what you've been doing. No, I had to unhide recently around politics with the idea of being wanting to understand both sides of the equation, wanting to tune in to both conventions and think about how I was making up my own mind and not just following whatever celebrity on either side was saying, I don't actually care.

H: Yeah.

G: I want to understand and hear for myself and make my own decisions about that. But when I shared that I was going to watch both conventions, the feedback from some people was, oh, good, you don't you can watch it for me. I don't wanna watch it, or I can't believe you're watching that. And I'm like, where are you getting your information from? Because for me, I wanna make the decisions myself. I wanna have that and that was a very purposeful unhiding because there were definitely people, like you're saying, that make assumptions about who you are based on what you look like, where you live, how you act, what you've done in your life. And they're making those assumptions based on just surface level information without actually creating curiosity and without thinking about being kind and supportive. So that's a huge piece of hiding is curiosity.

H: I'm wondering what your thoughts are about a situation where people are like, okay, I see the benefits. I understand what you're saying and you know what, I am exhausted. I am tired of hiding the fact that I'm gay, or I have a physical difference, or I have ADHD, or whatever it is. And I am tired and I do feel like I'm missing out on belonging and genuine connection and finding my people and letting people know who I really am instead of saying and doing whatever I think will help me get along and go along. And when they start going through your steps of unhiding, they're met with either confusion, rejection, hostility.

A lot of people who are neurodivergent are very, very sensitive to rejection. And, you know, to your point about hiding, well, it's one of the reasons why we don't share so much because not only we're hiding along with everybody else, but because when we attempt to unhide and get rejected, that can be felt in a really profound and destabilizing way. How would you encourage people? How do you encourage people to deal with the fact that even if they're going baby stepping and they're just ratcheting up and they're following the steps, but they get a real rejection response? What would you tell them?

G: Yep, that I hear them because that's real. The rejection can feel real and it is sometimes not just feel real, it is real, because that's part of people our humanity right? That people have different reactions to things, and we can't control them, and that's the hard part. So that feeling of rejection is real. I would say though, keep going because there are other people that are not going to reject you. And it's why I also encourage Diann, and I didn't understand this until I was really working through the steps, is the feeling of a pause. Creating an intentional pause because what may feel like rejection may also just be questions.

Needing to understand information. And somebody shared with me something about their lives recently, and I needed to ask questions because I didn't understand enough. I didn't have knowledge about what they were sharing. And what was beautiful about the interaction is they created that space that I could ask questions. Some send information about whether it's our mental health, our neurodivergence, our religion, or whatever that list is, right, of things. And yet, we're ready to share it, and yet someone that we're sharing it with may not have all the information, may not know or wanna ask questions. And so sometimes that rejection feels like, oh, well, they don't just accept it. Well, no, it took us a long time to accept it right?

In our own lives, how do we allow for space for someone else and questions and curiosity. And that's why I keep going back to that word curiosity and circling it because I do think it allows for space and pause to slow some of this down because it is not an overnight process and it does take steps to get there. And I can tell you the payoff, like we've been talking about, is so amazing on the other side of it that it's worth some of that feeling of somebody doesn't understand me or someone's rejecting me because there are people out there who won't. So keep going is part of my message.

H: I would love to wrap up this conversation with both of us sharing kind of what's changed for us over the last several years since we've known each other, since you've gone from your first book to your second book, because it's very it's like a parallel process of everything that you're teaching, everything that you're speaking about, everything that you're consulting with companies about, having individual conversations about is mirrored by what's happening and has been happening in your own life. Same with me. I first suspected I had ADHD when I was still in grad school in the nineties. In fact, I wrote my thesis on it, and I had a little disclaimer that, you know, there may be unconscious bias in this research because I identify with these traits. I didn't get officially diagnosed until 8 years ago. I was proud of the fact that I could hide it or so I thought. I was proud of the fact that I was passing for neurotypical, at least in my own mind.

And now it's really what I talk about all the time. For me, the benefit is that I do feel lighter. I don't burden myself with wondering if I should say this or if I should share this or not. I do get the reactions. I have people say, wow, it really took you that long to figure out? I could have told you were, like, decades ago. Or are you sure? Are you sure? And I think that's okay because it took me a long time, so I need to create space for them. What's also happened is that I have conversations all the time where people say, I've never felt so seen, so understood, so appreciated, so respected. I never had to explain myself with you. That's priceless to me.

G: Yeah. Yeah. No, it allows people in right? When you're willing to share a part of yourself and understand the journey and allow people to see pieces of it, it's almost like their shoulders relax right? And they can take a deep breath and exhale with you and say, oh, well, this is what I'm going through. Like, Diann is not, quote, unquote, perfect right? But she is perfect because this this is all pieces of her, but I can actually share with her parts of what's going on with me too like, I can connect with her. That's the real goal of unhiding is this connection. How do we build connection to others? And that's it allows for others to see us and allows for others to share their stories and see themselves in us. We share and it's beautiful.

H: What are some of the biggest changes you've experienced in these last few years as you have been progressively unhiding yourself more and more and as you're doing that, really encouraging other people to do the same. Have there been any surprising changes or things you've realized or experienced?

G: I love this question. I think probably one of the biggest changes is the willingness of people to join me in unhiding right? Because when I started on this journey and I shared the reason my first book was my journey, it was my journey from hiding to unhiding. And, you know, I thought maybe it would resonate with some people. I wrote it really for my 12 year old self who would have loved to know, like, hey, it's not gonna be that bad. Like, you're gonna go through some people hiding. This is what it looks like on the other side.

This is why you're doing it for the all that joy and that relief and being able to take risks again. Like, you're gonna go through this, this is for you. And I realized there's a whole audience of people who have felt I didn't realize the universality of this identity, and how many people have felt like this. Because when I talk about it now, people immediately say, oh my god, everyone's hiding something. And so that feeling of, hey, you're not alone, is just magnified. Like, all those years of feeling alone, now I feel less alone.

And it's actually why I was put on this earth, Diann, to talk. Why I went through the journey and the exhaustion and the loneliness of hiding is to be able to share that and make it just a little bit less for someone else. Like, hey if we can just start stop this piece of your life of hiding so much, there's relief on the other side. And so I think the universality of it I think the other piece that's been amazing is just the connection that it builds with people of being able to be yourself. There is freedom. There is relief in it and so you're I love the metaphor that you're talking about because I hadn't thought about it that way of it's really it is my metamorphosis.

It's like a butterfly right? That I'm kind of like being able to unhide and go through all of that to get to this other side, and I'm still going through it. And listen, it's a journey and I talk about unhiding and hiding as a continuum because there are certain parts of my life that I'm still working through. Just because you're unhide one part doesn't mean that everything needs to be shared or everything needs to still be hidden. How do you work through things? And that's I think it starts to bring up other pieces of your life when you unhide one part.

H: Am I catching that there might actually be a third book in the works?

G: Oh, Diann, you know, it's funny. When I wrote the second book was released in August at the end of August. And from some people, they said, so what's the third book? I'm like, did you read the second book like, I just came out. What do you mean the third book? I would love to do a third book. I mean, I think once you start writing, there's so much it's funny. After the first book, my father said to me, why are you writing another book? And I said, because I have to say, and I had learned so much from people. My first book was about me.

The second book, Unhide and Seek turns the tables to you. What are you hiding? How is it showing up in your life? How is it holding you back? And so the third book, I would love to write a children's book. I think that's calling at my heart, around difference and how do we understand difference and how do we because it's the book that I think a lot of kids would understand or parents would be able to talk about difference.

H: I'm just getting all the feels right now because why I do what I do is I tell people, I don't share things about my story because I want you to be impressed or I want you to feel any sort of way. It's that I share what I share because I want you to get further faster. I don't want it to take you as long as it took me to find this out, to find the benefits of on sight, unhiding, and finding my people and finding my voice and realizing even if people don't like me when I unhide, it's totally okay. But to be able to know that as a child would literally change the trajectory of their entire life.

G: Right. Right. And they're still gonna go through things right? Because we go through things, and yet if it can be a little bit shorter, I like that idea of further and faster. I'm actually that down because that is truly the gift right? If you can get through something without having it take so long. And not going through the process, but to not have to feel so exhausted and so alone for so long. Yeah, I would have done anything for that.

H: Well, you gotta promise me when you write that third book because I have a feeling you will. You're gonna come back here, and we're gonna talk again.

G: And once you say it out loud, it's like it's now in the universe. It's along with that one woman show that I wanna do also, so I'm putting that out there so yeah.