In this episode of the Dementia Research Podcast, host Dr Gemma Lace is joined by guests, Dr Eric Hill from Loughborough University, Kalliopi Mavromati from University of Glasgow, Natalie Wickett from Simon Fraser University and Dr Kate Harris from Newcastle University.

Together they discuss the intersection of ADHD and research, exploring personal experiences, misconceptions, and coping strategies. The conversation highlights the unique challenges faced by researchers with ADHD, the importance of understanding and empathy in academic settings, and the various ways individuals navigate their symptoms. The discussion also touches on the role of medication and the need for tailored approaches to support neurodiverse individuals in academia.

Key takeaways

• ADHD is often misunderstood and is much more than visible hyperactivity.
• People with ADHD do not lack attention, but can struggle to direct it consistently.
• Hyperfocus can lead to intense productivity, followed by emotional or physical crashes.
• Academic culture, with its constant evaluation and rejection, can amplify ADHD challenges.
• Rejection sensitivity can feel physically painful and trigger fight or flight responses.
• Clear expectations and structured communication reduce anxiety and procrastination.
• Breaking work into smaller deadlines can support momentum and reduce overwhelm.
• Medication can be life changing for some, but it is not a complete solution on its own.
• Hormonal shifts can significantly influence ADHD symptoms, particularly for women.
• Curiosity, empathy and flexibility create more supportive research environments for neurodivergent colleagues.

A transcript of this show, links and show notes and profile on all our guests are available on our website at https://www.dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk.

If you prefer to watch rather than listen, you will find a video version of this podcast on YouTube, on our website, and in selected podcast platforms.

Leave us a tip:

https://dementia-researcher.captivate.fm/support

Follow us on social media:

• https://www.instagram.com/dementia_researcher/
• https://www.facebook.com/Dementia.Researcher/
• https://www.twitter.com/demrescommunity
• https://www.linkedin.com/company/dementia-researcher
• https://bsky.app/profile/dementiaresearcher.bsky.social

Download and Register with our Community App:

https://www.onelink.to/dementiaresearcher

We gratefully acknowledge the support of our funders: Alzheimer’s Association, Race Against Dementia, Alzheimer’s Research UK, Alzheimer’s Society, and the National Institute for Health and Care Research.

The views and opinions expressed by guests in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the producers, funders, or sponsors.

Subscribe to our sister show 'Dementia Researcher The Blogs':

https://podfollow.com/dementia-researcher-blogs

- [Voice Over] The Dementia

Researcher Podcast,

talking careers, research,

conference highlights,

and so much more.

- Hello and welcome to the

Dementia Research Podcast.

Today we're talking about life

as a researcher with ADHD.

(bright music)

Hello, I'm Gemma Lace and

I'm a dementia researcher

and associate dean at the

University of Salford.

I'm hosting today's episode

because this is a topic that

feels really personal to me.

ADHD is something that has

shaped my own experience of work

and research, and it's

something I know many people

are navigating quietly.

In this conversation, we

want to better understand

what ADHD looks like in practise,

how we can affect people differently,

and our researchers

have found ways to work

with it at different

stages across their career.

We'll also talk about

what has been challenging,

what has helped, how

people have found ways

to succeed in research environments

that are not always designed

with neurodiversity in mind.

I'm joined today by Dr. Eric

Hill, Kalliopi Mavromati,

Natalie Wickett and Kate Harris.

Say hello everyone.

- Hi.

- Hi.

- Hello.

- Thank you all for joining me.

We've already said this is going to be fun

and chaotic, so we might all break out

into spontaneous laughter.

So I think we just embrace

that from the beginning.

To start us off, could I ask you all

to briefly introduce yourselves?

So Eric, could I start with you?

- Yep, I'm Dr. Eric Hill.

I'm a reader in cellular

and molecular neurobiology

at Loughborough University.

I was diagnosed with ADHD

probably about eight or nine years ago.

- Fabulous, thanks Eric.

Kate, do you wanna go next?

- So, I'm Dr. Kate Harris.

I'm a senior lecturer

in interdisciplinary drug discovery

up at Newcastle University

and I was diagnosed

with ADHD about five months ago.

So it's all very new.

- Fabulous.

Kalliopi, do you wanna go next?

- You can call me Kalli,

but Hh, I'm Kalli.

I'm a researcher at the

University of Glasgow.

I research dementia

and I create scales for

measuring life after stroke.

I was diagnosed with ADHD

about two years ago at 23.

- Fabulous.

- Thanks Kalli, and Natalie.

- Hi, I'm Natalie.

I'm at graduate school at Simon

Fraser University in Canada,

and I got diagnosed with

ADHD about four years ago,

I think when I was 20.

And I'm interested in researching dementia

and strength training

and physical activity.

- Very cool.

I'm already getting imposter syndrome now

because I have been in and out

of the diagnostic procedure

for about seven years

and now I've just abandoned

it and given up all hope.

So I the only one who's

not formally diagnosed.

(bright music)

Okay, to begin, could you

explain what ADHD actually is

for someone who may be

hearing about this properly

for the first time?

Eric, can I come to you first for that?

- Yeah, ADHD is a terrible name.

So it stands for Attention

Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.

And so what we need to understand is

it's a lifelong

neurodevelopmental disorder.

It has a huge genetic component to it

and around about two to 5%

of all adults are suspected

to have ADHD, but only about one in nine

are actually diagnosed with ADHD.

And I think when we think

of ADHD, I was diagnosed

with a combined inattentive

and hyperactive.

And so we think of often

the the hyperactive side

of ADHD and not necessarily

that inattention.

And it's not necessarily

that we lack attention,

it's that maybe our

attention isn't directed

at the right place at the right time.

So you think of people

following a particular task

and maintaining attention,

particularly if it's something they're not

necessarily interested in.

So maybe you're not listening

to someone when you're

being spoken to directly

'cause you've got distracted,

to the kind of more hyperactive side

where you're fidgeting,

you're tapping, squirming,

biting your nails,

leaving your seat when

you'd probably be expected

to stay sitting down

and that kind of feeling of restlessness

and almost like you're driven by a motor.

And those are some of the kind of things

that they look at when they're going

through the diagnostic pathway review.

- So you mentioned there,

Eric, that there's often

that focus on the hyperactivity element.

So Kate, I'm gonna direct this one at you.

Do you think that ADHD is misunderstood

by the wider population?

- Oh yeah.

Also, I was really loving Eric,

when you were giving your descriptions,

it was properly taking me

back to the questionnaire

that they make you answer.

Like the bit was like, oh,

do you feel like you're driven by a motor?

I'm just like, yep,

that's memory right there.

Yes, I think it really is.

I think that there's a huge amount of

development that's happening

now where people are starting

to understand more, but it's

also a relatively new thing.

It's not new in terms of

people have heard about it,

but for it to become quite

mainstream is quite new.

So we're starting to understand more

and there's obviously kind of

our generation are the ones

that are really sort of learning about it,

but obviously, it's hereditary.

So our parents' generation

and our grandparents' generation are like,

what is this nonsense?

This was just normal.

And then they obviously forget that

what there's normal maybe different to

what is actually normal.

I still find it hilarious

that they go to your parents

to ask them if you were normal

growing up when there's a 70%

or 80% chance that they

were not normal growing up.

But anyway, that's a discussion

for later in the podcast.

I think a lot of the

misunderstanding is about

that hyperactivity and not

necessarily the inattention

and the fact that you

simultaneously be both distracted

and hyperactive and hyperfocused.

It's not intentional.

None of this is intentional.

It's just there's not

enough dopamine for us

to do whatever you want

us to do at any one time.

A huge aspect of it, at least

from perspective people,

myself and people I know is about

internal emotional regulation as well.

People misunderstand that

side of it very much.

And controlling impulse

and controlling the ability

to not speak even though you

really don't wanna speak,

but it just comes out.

So a lot of that, so that can lead

to you being the

disruptive one in the room

or the one that's not serious

or the one that's always late

because they don't care

or poor attention to detail,

which in the sciences does use

such a solid when you can't

pay attention to detail consistently.

So yeah>

- I think

you're absolutely right there

and I think sometimes what

is misunderstood as well is

how it can manifest differently

in different situations

as well as differences

between different individuals as well.

So Kalli, I wanted to to ask

you about, you know, some

of the things that you

just heard there from Eric

and from Kate about how

maybe some of the things

that they had experienced

as part of their ADHD.

What about your kind of

individual experience of ADHD?

- Yeah, I 100% agree with everything

that's been said in case my nodding

hasn't made that clear enough.

I'm a serial nodder, whenever

I agree, you'll see it.

But yeah, I think for me,

because it's difficult for me

to discuss something about my past

before I was diagnosed is

actually quite emotional.

But for me, as someone who has both autism

and ADHD, it has been

even just understanding

what ADHD really means

because it's very tangible

to explain to my family

and my friends and my colleagues

has made a massive difference in my life.

At the same time, I have

experienced ADHD as a true gift

and at the same time, a bit of a burden.

I have, as I probably think many people

with ADHD think, I have many times thought

that there was something to be fixed.

And in fact, even after I got my diagnosis

and started meds for about the first year

and a half, I thought I

had to just fix my ADHD.

And then it's only been recent months,

which is well into the second year of me

using stimulants, short

term and modified release

I should add as well,

I'm finding that I don't

actually want to change it.

Instead I just want to

find a way to regulate it

so that I can continue doing

everything I want to do

and everything that makes me happy.

But that does mean that, for example,

when I'm in hyperfocused mode

and thanks for bringing it up Kate,

I was thinking about this,

as I've been in the

last two days actually.

I need to just let my brain do its thing

and then I will use my

meds after when I'm calm

and I'm struggling to get out

of bed in like a week or so.

So I guess

I've like gone over like

a gazillion faults there,

but for full transparency,

I made the decision

to not take meds before this conversation

so that I could be visibly unmasked

because I never had that

when I was growing up

and I thought it would be

nice to be that person.

- Kalli, thank you so much.

Thank you so much for sharing that.

It's really brave and you

are amongst friends here

and your words are

likely to really hit home

with everyone who's listening.

So thank you so much for

your bravery, kudos to you.

It is quite difficult

to be open, isn't it?

You know, I know when I was growing up,

if you had ADHD you were

kind of a naughty kid.

I know my mom was really

adamant about not being

labelled with anything.

I was described as a butterfly

and I thought that was a much nicer

because I was essentially, yeah,

I don't even have the words to say

what I want a Tasmanian devil running

around interested in everything

and you know, some of the words

that you mentioned, Kalli.

So I just went off on my

first one of whatever.

Kalli, you mentioned that hyper focus.

I wonder if you or anyone else in the room

just wanted to explain

what we mean by hyperfocus

'cause I think we all get

what we mean by hyperfocus

and it might be useful

for the non-ADHD community

to understand what hyperfocus looks like

and also what happens after

a period of hyperfocus.

- As a neuroscientist, I've

been very intrigued by that

because I never was

taught that in my degree.

Not at any point,

but from everything I've understood

in the last couple of years,

hyperfocus is kind of,

it's also hormonally determined,

especially for women.

We wanna make that very clear,

but it's basically, it's not

a state, it's just kind of,

your brain just kind of starts

being a little bit hyper,

but not in the physical hyper

way in the, I have a lot

of thoughts and I want to

do the things I am thinking.

For me, a lot of the

time it's doing science,

like a lot of science very intensely

without wanting to stop.

And if I am interrupted

because I have to eat

or I have to sleep, it actually

feels like uncomfortable.

And sometimes that

hyperfocus can look like me,

like having all-nighters.

It can be stress induced sometimes for me

because I'm no longer

in education formally,

it's not induced by stress,

it's more by creativity.

And whenever that happens

to align with that cycle

of my menstrual phase, but it's,

but yeah, it's that kind of thing.

And then afterwards, it's sort of a,

your brain has used up all of the dopamine

it has to help you initiate tasks

because as Eric said, it's not that

you don't have attention, it's

that you have it spread out

in a lot of places

and there's not quite

enough dopamine for you

to focus in one place and

actually act on what you wanna do.

So once it's all been used up

during your hyperfocus state,

you kind of then tend to

crash in my experience.

And it's a little bit like it's harder

to do the basic things.

Eric, what you think?

- Yeah, I think a lot of

what's not kind of described

in the diagnostic criteria

when you're talking

to professionals

and other people, it's that

the linking all of that

to your executive functions,

that there's things

that I guess most people take for granted,

but kind of your inhibit your

control, your self control,

your ability to hold

information, your working memory

and your cognitive

flexibility are all disrupted.

And those links to kind of

where you get reward from something

and that reward can differ wildly

to doing something

really boring and inane.

And for me, a lot of the time it's,

I love reading about science sometimes

and I'll just go into a rabbit hole

of science and then I'll emerge

and it'll be hours later.

And knowing I'm doing that, having,

I've got maybe tonnes of

marketing to do in the background

and I'm getting reward from

one thing and not from the other.

So I'm just focusing on the thing.

And then having that time

blindness where you don't notice

'cause it's difficult

to shift your attention.

And I think for a lot of people with ADHD,

it's that shift in attention

from that hyperfocus

where you get a reward to

something that's not necessarily

that interesting to you or

that rewarding at that moment

unless there's those other

things like fear of failure

and embarrassment and stuff

driving things forward.

And I think the way people

present the diagnosis rates

between males and females

is very different.

And that's not based on

any biology or genetics.

The occurrence is identical,

but I think the presentation is different

that often women don't often

show that hyperactivity

or it's frowned upon.

Whereas me running and jumping

and throwing myself at trees,

that's fine, that's what boys do.

It's just being in a laugh

and my parents said, you haven't got ADHD,

you're just like your dad, right?

And I was like, hmm, yeah,

like kind think like

there's a reason for that.

He'd get the same score as me I imagine.

So I think that that kind of

how the kinda social

representation like comes to bay

as well, what people are expecting to see

and then that kind of internalisation,

that internal hyperactivity.

People might not see that

but it's still there.

So I think people understanding

there are different ways

it's presented but it's still those

very similar symptoms as well.

- Yeah, cheers Eric.

Natalie, what about you?

We spoke a lot about, you

know, how the symptoms

manifesting in different

people in the room.

So what about you, what's

your experience of ADHD?

- I actually wanted to

touch back on ADHD being

misunderstood and hyperactivity

and what Eric just mentioned

about the differences

in presentation between males and females.

And that as a girl, I find that I have

that more internalised hyperactivity

and I might be completely

still, but my mind is going

and going and going and that

kind of difference there,

which I've spoke about

with many of my friends

who have ADHD as well.

Yeah, and I think that can

make it very misunderstood

for girls.

- Question.

Natalie, I was thinking

recently I was noticing

that when I'm like around

and during my period I find that I, a lot

of my internal hyperactivity is emotional.

So like I tend to kind of

think about not nice things

and things that make me really sad.

But then when, when I'm out of that part

of my cycle like I am now,

it's more about things

that make me actually want to act.

And sometimes I do get a little bit

of physical hyperactivity

but still like the internal

hyperactivity is more like

creative than it is emotional.

Do you find that at all?

- Yeah, I did actually

wanna talk about the like

menstrual cycle as well and

I'm glad you brought that up

because that's where I was

originally gonna go with my point

that before I lost my train of thought

that in my follicular phase

when oestrogen is higher,

I do feel like my focus is much better,

I feel better in myself.

I feel, I mean most women do,

but my ADHD symptoms I feel

like are partially relieved

and they get much worse

in the luteal phase.

I struggle with my mood much more.

I struggle with my focus much more.

Everything feels much worse.

Sometimes it even feels like

my medication just doesn't work

in that part of the cycle.

- That is so true.

It's just, and you can't predict

if it's gonna work or not, right?

- They had to give me an extra booster

for when I'm on my period

'cause nothing works.

My long release stuff doesn't work.

So they literally had to dial up my meds

just for that week.

- Wow.

I tried not taking them when I find

that they're making me a little bit hyper

and actually on those days

just before my period,

actually that seems to work better.

But then it's again a coin toss.

You have to take it one day

and find that it's, oh it's

making me do too much today

and then it's, you can't predict it.

Like those few days are just totally--

- Get in the hang of it.

I've only just finished titration

so I'll let you know in a year's time.

- I think it's important as

well for people that the links

between oestrogen and

menopause, I think a lot

of people getting brain fog, memory loss

and also realising they've

got ADHD at that point

and that again, being

misdiagnosed is quite important.

- So literally, 'cause the two were for,

for girls are often children.

So if you're not found out sooner,

found out, that was the wrong phrase.

It's children or menopause, you're right

'cause I have no idea this

was a total blindside to me,

two years ago, but then I had kids

and my whole like my brain fell apart.

- Yeah, absolutely.

The compensatory mechanisms like

you get them all together

and then children

or menopause, all that shifts

and that blanket of oestrogen

and hormones changes

and then whatever mechanisms

you were using as a bit

of a survival tactic are just

that rug is whipped around

and so it changes.

- Honestly with kids,

do you have time for yoga

to stop you buying a million

things on a random website?

No.

- More about the panic eating

custard creams in secret

so that you can do something.

It happens.

- Yeah, I always used

to eat caramel digestives

when I would study

to like try and help me.

- I have a friend introduced

me to volume eating

and she explained that

basically if you just eat foods

that are very chewy, even

if they don't have a lot

of calories, so think carrots, popcorn,

like it doesn't even

have to be like healthy.

It can literally just be eating popcorn

or like tortilla chips

because you're, you know,

I don't know about you but

I stim with chewing a lot

of the time so that's also why I lost

a little weight once I started meds.

Just chewing, it helps a lot.

So something I tried was,

when I first started I

would like take my meds

during the week and

then not in the weekend.

And I realised that if I

make sure I have popcorn

and like baby tomatoes or carrots

and cucumbers in the house,

I could literally just

like be constantly chewing

while I watch a movie and

I can sit still to watch it

because I'm chewing the whole time

and it doesn't fill me up too much.

But I still kind of feel like

I've eaten, I don't know,

the caramel digestives is a great idea

and I'm gonna try that on my

next office date that I go.

- I was gonna mention that it's the key

kind of diagnostic criteria

criteria when you go

through all the questionnaires

and you tick them off

and your doctor looks at

it and says whether you're,

you know, you've hit enough of the points

to go into the diagnosis

but the sides of it

that aren't part of

the diagnostic pathway.

So things like that

emotional dysregulation,

the rejection sensitivity, the sleep,

the time blindness, sensory process

and the fact that they 85% people

with ADHD have something else going on.

Whether that's mental health

issues, autism, dyslexia,

dyspraxia and all of those.

And so people don't think about

that when they're thinking about ADHD.

They're just thinking about these people

that are bouncing about

and uncontrollable.

They're not seeing all those

other things that I think

that are quite important

for people with ADHD

and they think that

maybe they struggle with

that aren't part of the criteria.

- Also, I have been

thinking about this lot

and I would, I was

thinking it would be good

to bring it up in this

Dementia Researcher Podcast.

I've been listening to, you

know, friends and family

and although I can't share their stories

because they're not mine to tell,

I'm seeing that some women in

and around my life are realising

that actually they have

ADHD later in life.

But much later in life that at the point

where other people may worry

that they have dementia.

I distinctly remember the months

before I started meds,

I was really struggling

so much I kept saying

to everyone around me,

I feel like I have dementia.

I find unfinished emails everywhere.

I don't remember starting them.

I don't remember why they're not finished.

There's missing words

in the stuff I write.

I'm confused, I dunno why that's happening

even though I have systems

so I don't forget stuff technically.

And I was thinking as a researcher

that actually this is probably something

that you can find in functional

measures of daily life.

I literally two days ago

wrote up a project proposal

where I'm going to try

and use functional like

functional activities records

from a retrospective cohort

of older adults to try

and see if I can make up

an ADSU diagnosis based on

that functional daily life data.

(bright music)

- Okay, so one thing that

I'm really curious about,

we're all dementia

researchers in the room.

Was there anything specific

around being a dementia researcher

or being in academia

that made your ADHD

maybe a bit more apparent

or triggered it

or made you notice different

sides of your ADHD?

I see Kate is nodding enthusiastically.

Should we go with you first Kate?

- Yes.

I have three words

that maybe people in this

call will identify with,

which is rejection sensitivity dysphoria.

- Please elaborate because

there may be people listening

who have no idea what that is.

- So this is a term used

to describe, I'm trying to

think of a way of saying it.

A phenomenon.

Oh my goodness, I sound so jargony.

Essentially one of the

hallmarks of having ADHD can be

that you are incredibly

sensitive to perceived rejection

and perceived is a really

important word here.

So two things I wanna clarify there are

sensitive does not mean

it's uncomfortable.

It means there is a visceral

pain in the very centre

of your being that makes

you feel evolutionarily like

you're being chased by a lion.

Now I haven't actually

been chased by a lion,

but I have been in fear

for my life in the past

and the feeling is the same.

The second is the perception of rejection.

So for me, unless feedback

or comments are genuinely positive,

my brain will interpret that as rejection.

Which means anytime any feedback

or any conversation does not lead

with someone saying something

outwardly positive about me

as a human being or a researcher,

my fight or flight kicks

in and as an academic,

rejection, genuine rejection

comes thick and fast

and perceived rejection

is pretty much constant.

So I'm not gonna lie.

Yes, okay.

I'm not having any

structure during my job.

Becoming an independent leader was bad,

but realising that I couldn't navigate

even being in meetings,

the differences of opinion

or every time I asked

something, someone saying no

'cause bureaucracy said

no was basically me

in a constant state of panic attacks.

And that was when I realised

maybe I was a bit more

than just bubbly and

like to run around a lot.

- And I think that that is

something that is crucial

if you are a PI or a supervisor

or you are working with someone with ADHD,

if you are not aware of that

and the impact of your words

that can literally send

someone into a spiral

of anxiety

and catastrophizing, that is

something really important

that you know, if you're

listening to this,

if you're watching this

and you aren't aware of

that, you've been mindful of

how you articulate

feedback and being mindful

and being able to read the room knowing

that not everyone will be able

to be able to read that room.

It's so important isn't it?

- So I'm laughing.

That was actually probably pretty bad.

- It is very uncomfortable.

I've seen some interesting

memes about this of people

kind of laying in foetal positions

after getting paper rejections

and it is that bad, isn't it?

It is absolutely horrific.

- Well if you just present a research idea

and someone just goes,

yeah, I don't really believe

in your field of research

and you're like, right,

I just need to jump off something.

Like there's no point in me being here.

I'm gonna move like, and

you can't control it.

It's not drama.

Like I would love not to behave like this.

And it's not like I

kick off in the meeting,

I go and I just sob on my own.

But the fact of the matter

is, is it takes time away

from writing grants.

- Yeah.

What about some of the positive elements

of ADHD then, you know, how

have you kind of embraced

some of your ADHD to make progress?

Everyone in this room is successful

and if you're thinking no I'm not

that's your imposter syndrome,

that is absolutely your imposter syndrome.

So what do you feel have you been able

to take advantage of with

respect to your ADHD?

- I think I'm really careful

'cause I know some people

say that ADHD is a superpower

and I don't believe that,

it wouldn't be a disability

or seen like that if it was.

And I think if you could bottle

that hyperfocus, yeah, amazing.

But you can't, so it's

the worst superpower ever.

If you could like, if you can't

actually use it when you need it.

So for me though, at certain times,

that kind of interest in something

and for me, it's always been

science since I was a child.

I think my nan used to know that she came

to science museum and that's carried on.

And so for certain things in science that

I would just be buried in

and really be obsessive

and I think that energy that that brings

that people are like, oh my

god, Eric's really excited,

jumping up and down that

you've got a result in lab.

Kind of that infectious

enthusiasm for certain things.

I think that's been great

at maintaining focus

in certain things and

which is great in science

'cause you're constantly chipping away

and you're in interesting stuff.

I think it's when you can't do that

and you're having to do admin

and other things in your

job and the boring stuff.

And especially I think

as your career develops,

your role gets bigger.

You're doing other things.

You've got a group,

you've got all these deadlines

and that's when I had my diagnosis

because asked like why

can't I mark 60 exams

in a day like other people?

But I did 20 other things

and it was another

academic that said, yeah

because you've got ADHD Eric.

And I was like, everyone used

to joke about that when I was a child

and they went that kind of thing

and I thought, oh, I

went speak to my doctor

and they went, have you ever done a test?

And they went, wow,

you've got a high score.

And I think, so for me

there were certain things

that worked really well with

being a PhD student postdoc

apart with some of the boring stuff.

It was later on that it

became a massive problem.

And I think that academia

is that constant environment

of being peer assessed, peer reviewed.

And just asking for rejection

and then how do you deal with that?

You can either spiral

or I just get, oh, I'm gonna

prove you wrong kind of thing.

Like I get angry and like it almost,

and then I'm gonna be tenacious,

I'm gonna actually might prove you wrong.

And that emotional dysregulation can

send people in a different direction.

I think those around you

might, my god, they got angry

about that or really upset

really quickly what was all that?

And next section you're like,

I don't really care about it.

I'm going to have some food, it's gone.

So I think people might

not understand around you

that dysregulation, that lack of control

is because you're not able to control it.

It's part of the ADHD and and

for us maybe accepting that

and understanding why we do that

and not beating ourselves up is important.

But the people around you

might think, oh my god,

don't really understand that.

One of my PhD students said

I had an abrasive enthusiasm

for science sometimes.

In a good way I think.

But I could see what

I do jump up and down.

I do get excited about stuff

if I'm really excited

about part of science.

That's all I'll talk about for ages.

So I can understand

that from other people.

But yeah, for me, it's been great

because my interest is science

and it's my job so it's like my hobby.

- It's really great to hear that

'cause I know that having

special interest and that passion

and enthusiasm, it's great

if you've got somewhere

to channel it and many

people don't have somewhere

to channel it and that can exacerbate

the symptoms even more.

Natalie, what about you?

You know, how has ADHD

influenced your career

and how you've, you know, navigated your,

maybe your student years and your choices?

- Yeah, I think the two things

that I would definitely say

I managed to, I struggled

to navigate the most is

the lack of structure

and the fact that I would

call myself a perfectionist.

But really it's more like if

I can't get something right

the first time, I don't

wanna do it at all.

That's something I really struggle with.

Probably linking back to

the rejection sensitivity.

But if I, yeah, if I can't do

it perfectly the first time,

I don't wanna keep trying,

I wanna call it a day.

But I think the lack of structure

is probably the biggest one.

Going into university,

when I went and did my

undergraduate, I went to Exeter,

did neuroscience and it

was almost like the rug

had been pulled out from under my feet.

Whereas before I had this

environment that I'd created

to support myself and I had

my family to look after me

and help me

and remind me, like my mom would say, Nat,

have you done your homework?

Nat, have you packed your lunch?

Nat, you know, everything

really got your PE kit.

And if I hadn't, she'd pick me up on it

and she'd drop me my lunch to

school or something like that.

But then all of a sudden

when I went to university

and I had all of that taken away

and it required a lot

more executive function

to navigate daily life and daily tasks.

And that was really difficult

in a new environment like that.

And yeah,

all of a sudden I went

from forgetting my lunchbox

to locking myself out of my

flat multiple times a week

and forgetting my keys

or missing doctor's

appointments, missing lectures,

not being able to get through

lectures, things like that.

And the lack of structure from

university compared to school

and having to regulate my

own schedule, my own timing.

That was something that was

really difficult for me.

- It's a real big shift

isn't it, from going from

that really structured kind of environment

to the research environment is

completely lacking structure.

I'm gonna ask something that

might expose myself here.

Has anyone, has anyone else

as a compensation mechanism for that

discomfort with the lack of

structure gone the other way

and had to really over

structure everything

to feel kind of safe and secure, right?

Maybe lists everywhere of things.

Is that a me thing?

Is that my ADHD does

anyone else, you know,

for certain things have to,

right like, Kalli's nodding.

- Yeah, I've been, this is like,

there's so much overlap between what you

and Eric have been saying about you know,

and also not, sorry oh my

gosh, I had like six tabs open

and I'm trying to just

stick to one thought.

I was trying to answer what you said about

the compensator mechanisms.

I use the office, going to the office,

which I don't like doing

because I hate the commute.

I use it to force myself to do

things that I don't wanna do.

So I say yeah, wait, wait, wait.

It works, it works.

If I say, okay, I'm gonna

treat, I'm gonna get myself,

I got myself a nice coffee machine

and so I will make myself

a really nice coffee

and I will enjoy my coffee

on the way to the office.

And then when I get to the

office, I will just do the thing

I don't wanna do and I'll just do it

and it'll be out of my head.

Also what I've started

doing to kind of give myself

a little bit of structure. and oh.

and I don't allow myself

to think about those things

I'm avoiding when I'm not at the office.

That has solved a lot of issues for me.

It works so well.

It's compartmentalization,

it's kind of like,

like enclosed cognition

but instead it's just about where you are.

It's conditioning yourself.

You just have to stick to it.

It's hard at first

and then it starts working a lot.

It works.

But after the other thing I

do is I actually work nights.

So whenever I have to

write, I can't do that

when there's people around.

And I'm finding it that if I'm home alone,

unless I'm in hyperfocus

mode, I can't get myself

to do things when I'm alone.

So I go to the office later like one

00 PM, I do the things I don't wanna do while

there's people around, you

know, I'm the office jester,

I bother them all the time.

And then when they're gone

then I turn the lights off

'cause I don't like the big light

and I just work away until

like eight or 9:00 PM

and that's me finished.

And I don't carry stuff home.

And I don't allow myself to do things

outside of my designated,

you know, structure

that has absolutely no meaning

because you could

literally just say Kalli,

couldn't you just do the exact same things

but in your home at your desk?

No I can't, I don't know what to tell you.

It's about that change of environment.

It's about telling myself

it's actual do things

that are annoying time,

but that structure really has been

working really well for me.

- So you've got some really

good compensation mechanisms

there about that building

your own structure,

setting some clear boundaries,

understanding when you work

best and how you work best.

And it also sounds like

you've snuck in a little bit

of reward there with linking

to your favourite coffee.

So there's some really cool

lessons to be learned there.

Sorry Eric, did you want to say something?

- Yeah, so I really benefited

from coaching later on

after diagnosed, meds really helped.

But then coaching was really great

and then I trained to

become a coach later on

and kind of like when we

were talking about things

my coach said, Eric, you're

weird for someone with ADHD

because you've got so

many organised things

to make sure you look organised.

That's really unusual and I

didn't really understand those

and my part of it might

be fear of failure,

that rejection sensitivity.

I don't appear normal in academia

'cause I have so many electric reminders.

Even time you've got 15

minutes start meeting,

you've got 10, you've got

five because I know I'll

carry on talking to someone.

And those things there

I've got two whiteboards

with multiple notes on,

'cause I know I'll be blind

to both of them at different points

and I'll have things

popping from my computer.

My watch will start to

vibrate if I'm doing a lecture

to say, Eric stop, you're

gonna go over the time.

And that there's so many

things I've put in place

and then a few people have also suggested

because I have so many rules I've created

and then maybe they've become

more apparent of medication

that maybe I've got autism and ADHD.

And when I thought I didn't,

lots of people just laughed

and said, why do you think you don't?

All the light sensitivity,

noise sensitivity.

The things I do in the same order,

my bag is in the same position.

All my meds are in certain

places in the kitchen

that I know I will have to pass and go to.

My bag is in front of the door

so I cannot forget it before I leave.

There are so many things to put in place

to make sure that that happens.

And I think a lot of

people would just do that,

but I have to have them there.

If I'm on the train, my bag

is wrapped around my leg

so I don't leave it.

So there's just lots of things

that you've done to appear normal.

But all these reminders I have to have

and that's kind of really

helped to have those.

But I think like Kalli said is it's,

it's having those rewards built in.

So if I let myself make myself

do this bit that I hate,

then I will get to have

lunch or that snack

or I'm gonna go for a walk

now or do something else

and compartmentalise it.

So maybe some people

describe it as golden time.

I'm gonna do the really

boring things in the morning

when my meds are at the highest.

So by the afternoon I can do other stuff.

And I always work best at night

and for ages I tried not to,

'cause I thought that's really bad for me

but I don't work very well

when other people are around.

If I haven't got my

playlist or whatever it is

or my noise cancelling headphones

depending on where I am,

I can't do that extended writing.

So having those rewards built in,

but just sometimes when

you are in that moment,

I have to just let it go.

Now I might, I'll spend hours writing

or doing something else

because if I try not,

if I try to force myself to

do it at a different time,

it's just never gonna happen.

- That was such a hard

lesson for me to learn.

I have, I went my entire

education and career

before meds by just having

multiple jobs, multiple things.

I did Greek exams to get here

and I was using one

to productively procrastinate

the other because that works.

I didn't have much free time

but I was avoiding one by doing the other.

So I was actually so productive

and I did that throughout uni

but then at some point

everybody was like, you need

to go slow and steady

with your dissertation.

And everybody kept trying

to force me to work in a way

that I am not capable of working

and I never will be able to do,

slow, steady and slow and steady.

No, never, can't do that.

- There's such a strong

restage in that for people who

aren't living with ADHD.

It's having a bit of empathy

of the different ways

of working and acknowledgement

that, you know,

it was a big deal when I

was in the lab of who was in

at what time and how many

hours people were doing.

And that research culture of acceptance

of different ways of

working different patterns.

Many of you have mentioned

using different states

of your energy to do different tasks.

Is that getting the

worst thing done first?

It's, you know, it's

called eating the frog

in the coaching world.

It's like get that worst

thing done and out of the way

and then reward yourself afterwards.

So there's loads of really

useful insights for people

who may be looking at this.

(bright music)

So Natalie, have you got anything that you

want to add to that?

- Yeah, I feel like I've tried

a million different things

to help with ADHD symptoms.

I've done all the planners,

I'm sure we all have and it's nothing new.

But I have a few kind of what

I call little hacks for myself

to set myself up for a good day

and set myself up to be

productive because otherwise,

I will just hyperfocus

on scrolling on my phone.

So mainly diet and exercise.

I find it really important for me.

If I move, I feel a hundred times better.

So I tend to wake up and go

to the gym straight away,

have a high protein breakfast

to help kickstart my day,

get that dopamine production going.

I think the high protein

breakfast is really important.

I have blue light glasses

even though I don't have

prescription glasses,

blue light glasses make

me feel like I'm smarter

and make me feel more productive.

So for whatever reason I put

my glasses on, I'm in my zone.

It's kind of like when you

don't wanna go for a run,

if you put your shoes on and do them up,

you're ready to go for the run.

Same kind of concept for me.

And another rule I have is

don't put it down, put it away.

If I put something down,

I never pick it back up.

I know I won't.

So put it away, don't put it down.

Alarms, I have a million

different alarms on my phone

because I know that I'm

gonna forget my appointment.

So I set an alarm an hour before,

get ready for my appointment, get ready

for my meeting, get ready for my lecture.

I know that's done and

body doubling as well.

Super important for me.

Half the stuff I get done

I can't get done on my own.

If I need to tidy my room

or if I need to do some work,

I'm gonna call my friend

and I'm gonna do it

whilst I'm on the phone or if

they can come sit even better.

And lastly, if I have a day

where I don't take my medication

or something, obviously

do your own research

before taking anything

but L-tyrosine is, I find

incredible supplement.

I think it's supposed

to boost your dopamine.

I can't quite remember how it

works off the top of my head

but definitely something

to look into if anyone out

there like doesn't work

with medication or thinks

they might have ADHD

and they don't wanna take

medication or they can't yet

because they've not got a

diagnosis, look into L-tyrosine

and see if it helps.

- Fabulous, thanks Natalie

and we will come back

to medications in a moment as well.

But first I just wanted

to make sure that Kate,

what do you think about coping mechanisms?

What works for you?

- Cheers, I was just gonna say that yes,

'cause L-tyrosine is the

precursor to dopamine chemically,

which is why the high protein breakfast

works so well as well.

I had to get my chem head in there

somewhere was gonna say.

So I'm very new to all of this

so I'm learning a lot from all of you.

Thank you because I said

this kind of came out

of nowhere in the past couple of years

and I don't really know what's going on.

But what I do know is

that normal time management

methods do not work.

So we hear a lot of eat that frog

and blah blah blah blah blah and I can't,

the frog is irrelevant to me

'cause I'm interested in

the zebra in the corner.

So I have to build up in

a slightly different way.

I was also gonna say, sorry.

I know but you know what I mean?

Randomly, I want to just tell Eric yes,

I'm trained as a coach

too and it's amazing.

Anyway, so,

and that's been really

helpful for me actually

as a coping mechanism.

Didn't realise it at the time

but I think it was deliberate

'cause I wanted to understand

how other people behaved

and the ways other people behaved.

I think that has become

something of a special interest.

But it really helped me understand

the responses of others.

And so if someone's

very direct, but that's

because they're a very direct personality,

it makes me less likely

to spiral, et cetera.

But in terms of getting stuff

done, I have to build up

almost like build up dopamine.

I need quick wins in the

morning to get started.

If I just go for the hardest things first,

I'll just end up rocking in a corner.

But I just go right, what is

the smallest, easiest thing

that frankly is gonna take me nothing

and I have to just build up the momentum

and then I can tackle that big thing,

which is the exact opposite

of what all the common

Task management tells you to do.

It's something I really wanna

bring in to our institution.

We're all facing efficiency

drives across the sector

and any efficiency drive has got

to take the neurodivergent

mind into accounts.

There will need to be separate

advice on task management

for people who cannot

just, you know, people go,

oh just block out your day.

Great, my outlook says

I'm not doing anything

but I can assure you that

that is not what is happening.

So yeah, so I think

that's the bit I'm learning

And then I just wanna thank

the rest of you for all of your advice

because I've taken much of it on.

- That's brilliant Kate.

Again, it's coming back to

that thing of appreciate

we've got people in the room

that have got that same diagnosis

but that there's still

variations in how we need

to do things in our way for us in relation

to our fluctuations and our experiences.

And I was also laughing

'cause I'm a coach as well.

It's like, and you know

and I've met so many people

in that coaching space

of people like, oh yeah maybe.

And I think it's about

that you know that some

of those other parts, elements.

- How I actually started

looking into it was

'cause I was on a training accelerator.

I train with the coaching academy

and they do these big accelerators.

- Oh hello.

- I literally, I got onto

one of the calls on one

of those breakout rooms that they do

and someone went, well

you're in your own space.

And I went, no I'm not.

I was literally honest to God.

And then a few months

later when everything

started falling apart, I was

like, maybe she was right.

I've been trying to find her,

I can't remember her name obviously like,

but I wanna find her

and be like, cheers fam.

She was like, no, there's

something about you,

you're spacey.

- ADHDers need to help

others and support others.

Okay, so let's just,

so we've spoke about a lot

of the coping mechanisms,

which is really around how

we kind of manage ourselves

and use tricks and tools

to manage ourselves.

But what about medications then?

Are they any good?

Do they really help?

Eric, do you wanna kick us off?

- Yep, I think linked to

people's coping mechanisms,

if you've met one person with ADHD,

you've met one person with ADHD.

It's a great like phrase

that I've learned from one

of my friends with ADHD.

And I think the same with medication.

People have to find what works with them

and it can also be what brand.

So I've been quite lucky.

I've found medication

straight away that worked

and went through different

stages of titration.

So I'm on one of the

stimulant medications.

I must say that there's different types.

There's a stimulant medication,

things like methylphenidate,

which is kind of like weak speed,

some people might describe it as.

And then there's a non

stimulant medications

and that carries with it a stigma.

And because you go go to get collected,

it's a controlled drug, you

have to sign extra things.

It's in a bag with an

orange sticker on in the UK

to say controlled drugs, they have to go

and count it out as well at the same time,

you have to constantly go in

and drop the prescription

off and be checked.

So there's those kind of

things that come along

with medication but people have to find

the different things.

My sister has a diagnosis,

she's tried multiple medications

to try and find the right one

and sometimes they just

don't work for people.

I think we have to be careful

they don't do everything

to fix your ADHD

and they can help control

some of the symptoms

to help you to focus.

But I think you also need

to develop other skills.

And I think for me,

coaching was the big thing

that went alongside the medication

to understand my brain

better and how I do things,

but also to challenge people around me

to have those difficult conversations.

To have some tools to

use and to understand.

One of my biggest issues is if people

aren't clear in their directions.

So like, you know, that will

lead me to procrastination.

I'll waste loads of time

doing too many things.

So having this kind of clean setup

where I'm gonna work in a particular way

'cause it works for me and

explain that to other people.

But I think everyone needs

to understand the differences

between the medications

that they may try then they

may work some of the time

and not all of the time that

your diet might be important.

The exercise, how much

sleep you're getting

and if you're ill and

whether they're gonna work.

And so I think some people

get really disappointed

quite quickly with them 'cause they're not

doing things straight away.

And it took maybe for me three months

before I noticed that suddenly

I was doing loads of stuff

that usually I struggle with.

And also I was like, wow, I've just done

loads of marking in one go.

And I thought, oh is this

what other people are like?

All that noise wasn't coming in.

I wouldn't like to say they're not voices,

but you know, the like not

quite being tuned into the radio

properly that there was

too many other things

and then all of a sudden, I was productive

and I could get that done.

I was like, oh wow, that was weird.

And then in the afternoon,

yeah, I'm bouncing

around all over the place

and maybe for some

people they have top-ups

so there are medications that are instant,

other ones kind of slow release.

So you get that early kind of

rise and then slow decline.

And some people they

break that down quickly

and need topped up in the afternoon

and then there might be a bit

of a spike in their focus.

And then that also relates

to maybe their behaviour

and their emotional state.

And so I think for having

people around you with

that understand, oh, it's the

afternoon, Eric's medications

gonna be running out, these metres

are gonna go on a bit longer.

Let's do this at nine o'clock

and put something right after it.

So we have to finish on time,

but at least he's gonna

focus the most then.

And so it's important to understand

how they change over the day.

But there are, so I think

for me there were lots of advantages.

Medication changed my

life, no doubt about it.

I think you probably

would've stopped me having

some kind of nervous breakdown.

But I think after that, after dealing with

that initial change, it was,

what else do I need to change?

And it was the way I was

working to suit other people,

not to suit the way my brain worked

and almost that period of mourning

and then understanding I'll fight my brain

and other people need to understand

that I will just go along.

I am a people pleaser and

actually be better for me

to work in a different way.

And so that's been really

useful to have the tools to do

that alongside the medication.

- Yeah and that people pleasing

is exhausting isn't it,

when you're trying to do

it everyone else's way.

And I think once there's an acceptance

of your ADHD of I can just do it my way

and I can articulate to others

what would be useful for me.

And I think given that we're

really nearly out of time,

I'm really keen that we have

a strong roundup message

for the audience.

(bright music)

So if someone was listening to this

and they thought that they had ADHD

or maybe it's someone who is

working closely with someone

who does have ADHD or

maybe you're a supervisor

and you've got a student with ADHD, team,

what do we want them to take

away from this discussion?

So Natalie, could I come to you first?

What do we want people to

take away from this chat?

- From the perspective

of a student with ADHD,

I think it's very important,

as Eric was saying,

to have clear instructions

because if they're not clear,

obviously procrastinate.

But more than that I think it just

makes your life so much

easier to follow step by step

and have everything clear.

And secondly, lots of small deadlines.

If I have one big deadline,

I'm not gonna do anything

until you know, it's urgent.

And the urgency is a big driving factor

for people with ADHD.

But if I have lots of small deadlines,

the urgency is gonna

come at different points

and it'll force me to make

sure I get things done

when they need to be done

and keep me on track.

And that's probably the

biggest factor that helps me.

- Yeah, really good tips there.

Kalli, what about you?

- I mean it's like I said,

Eric said no two people

with ADHD will be the same.

I wish my supervisors,

if I could have told them

one thing, I would've said,

please don't give me deadlines

and be patient with me.

Help me understand what I need to do

and I will find a way

to work, make it part

of my system instead of making myself fit

a plan you think will

work but probably won't

because I don't work

in the same way as you

and I do say the same thing

to my colleagues also.

I ask them to wash my mugs

because I cannot wash

my mugs at the office.

They're very nice about it.

I bring coffee and then

just they wash my mug

as a thank you.

So I really appreciate them.

So that's my message.

- Thanks Kalli.

Kate, what about you?

- I dunno how I can follow that.

Do you know what, I'm sorry to be soppy.

Normally I like to be

the Bantersaurus Rex,

but what I'm gonna say is that

the one thing I want someone

to take away, whether they

have it, think they have ADHD

or they have a colleague

with ADHD is compassion

for yourself, for your colleague

with that is curiosity.

You know, we're taught in coaching

that no behaviour is a problem behaviour.

And I said that oddly like the parent

of a toddler, apologies.

But what I mean is a lot,

it's about curiosity and understanding.

You can look at someone and

go, oh, they're different.

They're annoying, or you

could get curious about it.

And that includes with yourself.

So rather than going, oh,

why can't I shut up in this meeting?

I went in determined not to say a word,

and then I couldn't, get curious.

Or if you're wondering why a colleague,

sometimes I think one

person wants to describe me

as schizophrenic because,

you know, one second, I was,

it's not okay to say, I know, one second,

I was all confident, the

next second I was hiding.

And actually, rather than

saying as a judgement ,

maybe go for why, why might

that be kind of thing.

So just ask a person the question.

Ask yourself the question

and be compassionate about

whatever the response is.

- Beautifully put, Kate.

Beautifully put.

Cheers, Eric.

- I think, yeah, I think

just being educated

to understand what ADHD

is and what it isn't,

and understanding that

person that you work with.

They might have these highs and lows.

They might be working

really hard all the time

and just to help look out for them.

That be very clear about boundaries

and enable them to have structures

so that they can work within,

within a particular way

that's helpful to them.

And trying to understand that,

but also to understand that

to, in order to people please,

they may burn themselves out

unless the instructions are clear

and because the medications

are often stimulants,

we don't necessarily get tired

while we're burning ourselves out.

And so I think it's important

to realise that, you know,

to sometimes give people clear boundaries

and tell them exactly

what you want from them,

and understand that it may

take more time for them

to do that, or they may need

to work in a particular way,

but to just really

understand for their ADHD,

what they're like and

what works best for them

and what doesn't.

- So hopefully those

tuning in will now have

a much better understanding

of what ADHD is

and how it affects people differently.

We have spoke about so

much in this session.

It has been really interesting

and really exciting.

We've gone from various tips and hacks

and things that have worked

well for people living

with ADHD to some advice

for those working with ADHD.

But I think what we've done

importantly is maybe quash

some of those misconceptions

around what ADHD might be.

And maybe we've encouraged

some empathy in the fact

that it looks very different

in different individuals

and even in the same individual.

It can look different at

different times of the day

or depending on the cycle of the month

or what has been eaten

for breakfast and so on.

So this has been a brilliant discussion

and I can't wait to

meet you all in person.

That is gonna be fun.

Thank you so much, Dr. Eric Hill,

Kalli Mavromati, Natalie Wickett

and Kate Harris for sharing

really authentic, genuine,

honest, brave stories

today and great advice.

The links to relevant

resources will be included

in the show notes along

with a full transcript,

which will be available at

dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk.

Don't forget, we do have

the Dementia Researcher Community app

where you can share your own experiences

and talk about this topic more.

Thank you so much for listening.

I'm Dr. Gemma Lace and

you've been listening

to the Dementia Researcher Podcast.

Goodbye.

Say goodbye everyone.

- Bye.

- [Voice Over] The

Dementia Researcher Podcast

was brought to you by

University College London

with generous funding from

the UK National Institute

for Health Research,

Alzheimer's Research UK,

Alzheimer's Society,

Alzheimer's Association

and Race Against Dementia.

Please subscribe, leave us a review

and register on our

website for full access

to all our great resources.

Dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk.