The multi-billion dollar AUKUS defence deal between the US, UK and Australia is one of the most significant in our modern history.

The three countries wanted to curb China’s growing military presence in the Indo-Pacific. To do it, Australia was going to get new nuclear-powered submarines.

But in the five years since the agreement was first announced, it’s been anything but smooth sailing.

In this week's episode of The Conversation Weekly, we speak with Hugh White, a security and defence analyst at the Australian National University, to explore how the secretive deal was struck and why it's proving so controversial.

Read more from Hugh White and his take on the AUKUS debate here.

This episode was written by Justin Bergman and Isabella Podwinski was the executive producer. Sound mixing by Dan Semo and our theme music by Neeta Sarl. Gemma Ware is our Head of Audio and Ashlynne McGhee is our Head of Editorial Innovation. Misha Ketchell and Stephen Khan are our editors in chief. You can sign up here for a free daily newsletter from The Conversation.

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