In this Confluence podcast episode, host Randall Stephens talks with Reg Prentice from TonicDM to discuss the development and evolution of architectural, engineering, and construction (AEC) technology. Reg shares his journey from working with Frank Gehry and dabbling in amateur coding, to developing a project management web app called iShare at Gehry's office, which laid the groundwork for TonicDM.

The conversation touches on early experiences with software development, the principles of keeping technology simple and intuitive, and the importance of user feedback in shaping software features. Reg and Randall get into the features and philosophies driving TonicDM, focusing on ease of use, automation, and the significance of supporting a customer's needs without unnecessary complexities.

Additionally, they explore the backend aspects of software development, such as data import facilitation for new customers, data residency preferences, and the future directions TonicDM is heading towards in response to evolving market demands.

Episode Links:

• TonicDM website
• Reg Prentice on LinkedIn

Watch this episode on YouTube or Spotify.

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Welcome everybody to the Confluence podcast.

2

I'm Randall Stephens and I've

got a special guest today, Reg

3

Prentice with us from TonicDM.

4

So welcome Reg.

5

Reg Prentice: Thank you.

6

Randall Stevens: Yes, I was trying to

think back of when we originally met.

7

I'm pretty sure we were introduced by

somebody at Gensler because I know you

8

used to work there, if I'm not mistaken.

9

And it was probably either Mr.

10

Concannon, or I can't

remember who introduced.

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Reg Prentice: Plummer, Robert Plummer.

12

Randall Stevens: may have introduced us.

13

Reg Prentice: Yeah, I remember meeting

you at, uh, at the Avail AU party, suite

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Randall Stevens: yeah.

15

so this probably goes back to

the earliest days of avail is

16

probably when we got introduced.

17

So it's probably, probably

been seven or eight years ago

18

that we've known each other.

19

But, uh, thanks, thanks for coming on.

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Uh, I get to see you, you know, at a lot

of these industry events and we always get

21

to compare notes about what's going on.

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Uh, you actually participated in our

first regional confluence event that we

23

did in Southern California last year.

24

So.

25

Thanks for that.

26

And, uh, yeah, we're always,

uh, interested in, in getting

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out, talking AEC tech.

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Uh, so glad, uh, you're

willing to come on and share.

29

maybe you can just start, give us a

little bit of your background, how

30

you got into building technology

in the AEC industry, and then, uh,

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we can start talking about TonicDM.

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Reg Prentice: Yeah, I, uh, I

went to architecture school.

33

Um, and even at architecture school, I

was kind of the guy in the computer room

34

helping the other students with AutoCAD.

35

after school.

36

I moved to LA and started

working with Frank Gehry.

37

I was always in the tech side of it.

38

So even when I started there, it

was more with a view to me being the

39

CAD manager than it was with a view

to me being a production architect.

40

Um, so I started writing Lisp

routines and things and took over,

41

uh, as CAD manager from one of the

architects who was, uh, You know, who

42

didn't want to do that job anymore.

43

Uh, back in the nineties, it was kind

of architects who got roped into it,

44

uh, sometimes against their will.

45

So she was happy to have me come

in and take over that role so that

46

she could go back, actually, uh,

worked on Disney Concert Hall.

47

was a key person in that, uh, project.

48

And so that kind of, that was my

introduction to kind of tech and

49

coding a bit, like amateur coding.

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So I ended up writing like a whole suite

of, uh, Lisp routines for AutoCAD 12.

51

and then, uh, I also got

into web development.

52

Once, once that came along and I

was looking back through my notes,

53

Randall, and, uh, I actually

built a kind of a tonic DM like

54

app when I was at Frank's office.

55

So, uh, I, I looked up some screenshots,

so it was called, uh, I share.

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so this is.

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Uh, this actually is from 2006.

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These are screenshots I took, uh,

of the kind of final version of it,

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Randall Stevens: That's awesome.

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Reg Prentice: so yeah, you could, um,

you know, log in as a, as a guest to

61

download stuff, or as a Gehry employee,

and then, uh, Set up, you could set

62

up a team if you were one of the Gehry

people, and then, uh, it had a Java

63

plugin that would upload the files.

64

And as I was looking through this, I'm

like, I was like, man, this, there was

65

things that I could do with this that

we don't even do now, because, you know,

66

Java had a lot of access to the machine.

67

So you could do folder uploading, folder

downloading, and, you could do a lot

68

of things that are much harder to do

now because of, uh, browser security.

69

So.

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Randall Stevens: Yeah.

71

There's, it's interesting that, uh,

you know, even with our work that we've

72

done here with avail, you know, we

opted to, build a desktop application,

73

uh, mainly because there is a lot

of, challenges if you're trying to

74

interact with a With something in a

browser and something on your computer.

75

And it's by

76

definition, you want those

two worlds to not talk to each

77

other or have access to each

78

other.

79

So it gets interesting, right?

80

In this whole dilemma about, you

know, web web based apps and all the

81

good things about that, but there's

still something to be said to having

82

access to that local machine, but

it's a huge security challenge.

83

Reg Prentice: Yeah.

84

And so, for, good reason, Java

on the desktop kind of went away.

85

so this was a, this was

like an early, example.

86

I was thinking of where I was creating

a, The web app, it was a pretty simple,

87

use case, basically just moving around

large sets of files and folders and really

88

trying to keep it as simple as possible.

89

This was all coded by me

in notepad, uh, using ASP,

90

over the course of a few years,

you know, adding features to it.

91

And so I, I really enjoyed

working on, on this project.

92

and I think it was good.

93

It served a need.

94

Right.

95

And, you know, it was an opportunity to

work with the architects and look at how

96

they were using it, what they wanted to

do with it, and we kind of solved quite

97

a few problems together about, you know,

how third parties should upload, you know,

98

what rights they should have to upload.

99

Should they be able to upload and

distribute to other third parties without.

100

You know, Gehry's office being involved

because, you know, if you have 2

101

people on the East Coast and they're

using it as their file sharing, you

102

know, for the project, they don't want

to have to wait for the West Coast

103

to come in and, you know, reshare

something that they've uploaded.

104

So it was a good experience.

105

and it, you know, was the tool of

choice for Gehry for maybe, I think

106

about 10 years, like a 10 year run.

107

Randall Stevens: How much, how much

of those, you know, uh, there was

108

obviously the, that early problem of,

not wanting to attach, you know, needing

109

to transfer files, you know, between

people and, and, you know, not wanting

110

to attach those to emails, which the

file, you know, that was, that was

111

always a big challenge.

112

So I would assume that a lot of this that

you were working on was driven by trying

113

to keep this stuff out of the email.

114

But how, what I was going to ask

was how much, how much that same.

115

Same problem set is here.

116

Just, you know, not 25 meg files.

117

It's now 250 megabyte files.

118

And

119

Reg Prentice: right.

120

Yeah, I think that the fundamental, uh,

needs behind it haven't changed at all.

121

one of the, one of the things

is just simple and quick.

122

One problem that we were responding

to is that each project that went

123

into production would get a project

management website, like Buzzsaw,

124

let's say, or Bluebeam, BlueLine Online

was one back then, but that often

125

wouldn't happen for 6 months or 9

months sometimes, because there was a

126

whole, whole process of choosing one,

like, which one is going to be used.

127

And I'm sure today.

128

A lot of times it's the contractor

that hosts the site, but often

129

the contractor isn't chosen until,

you know, DD or even into CDs.

130

Um, maybe, you know, sometimes even,

you know, they have to bid and it's post

131

bid that you even have a contractor.

132

So the The office had a need like on

day one, we have to start sharing,

133

like, there's no signed contract.

134

All we know is there's a,

a possible project, but we

135

need to start sharing files.

136

So, this was a way that, you know,

with a couple of minutes, we could just

137

add another project and away they go.

138

And, and then there is a central

place for those files to live.

139

And there's also a tool

that people can use to.

140

To share large files.

141

So this particular tool was really just a,

it was called an extranet at the time and

142

it was, it was just sharing large files.

143

Uh, I think there was a team

list element, like you could see

144

people's names and email addresses,

but that need hasn't changed.

145

Like, you could have a proposal

stage project and you need to start

146

sharing files and it needs to be.

147

Yeah.

148

low admin and easy for the

staff to, to find and do.

149

So that, that hasn't changed.

150

Randall Stevens: So how much, how

151

much of this, uh, You know, the

work that early work that you were

152

doing there at Gehry with this,

how much is that still kind of at

153

the core of the, uh, of the theme?

154

You're, you, you kind of

have this lifelong thematic,

155

you know, it's, it's like a

156

lifetime of work.

157

Once you start thinking about

it in some way, it, it's hard to

158

stop.

159

Yeah.

160

Reg Prentice: Cause I, I can remember,

I mean, Frank Gehry's office was the

161

first full time job I had, uh, And

I can, I was thinking back, I can

162

remember being in Jim Glymph's office.

163

He was one of the partners with Dennis

Sheldon and Jim was drawing diagrams

164

of the owner and the contractor and

the, and the design firms and design

165

consultants and the fabricators and how

they share information and, you know,

166

being pretty fresh out of architecture

school, that was pretty much new to me.

167

Right?

168

And so I was looking back thinking,

yeah, Jim kind of I've trained me on

169

this stuff and I was really interested

in it from a data structure point of

170

view, kind of a systems thinking point

of view about how the different parties

171

interact and what their different needs

are and how the needs of each party are

172

quite different and what they want to

get out of a system is quite different

173

and that just because you can do

something doesn't mean you should do it.

174

There's, you know, different.

175

Information exchanges have different

levels of, uh, kind of importance

176

from the contractual point of view.

177

So some it's fine just to flip some

files back and forwards or share

178

them in real time, but other ones,

no, you better have a, a good copy

179

of that one because, because that

one's an important one, right?

180

And so making this, uh, iShare tool

kind of grew out of that a bit.

181

There wasn't a construction

administration component of it.

182

Um, but I was also the person in

the office who was reviewing the

183

different, uh, choices for project

management websites for different teams,

184

helping lead them through the process

of, uh, which one should be used.

185

Pretty quickly, it was clear that

the contractor had the most at stake.

186

They have the most complex workflows.

187

Often they're managing the

finances of the project through it.

188

So even though in some respects, The

architect has control, like often in

189

the spec division one, it'll say, uh,

you know, that you have to use whatever

190

the architect chooses, but in reality,

that's, it's not going to happen.

191

And it's not even a very good choice

because, you know, the contractor

192

using someone else's system is just

not going to be a good, uh, idea,

193

Randall Stevens: Right.

194

Reg Prentice: firm still have needs.

195

Right.

196

And so, so it was really that time

at, at Frank's office, working with

197

Jim Glymph and Randy Jefferson and,

and Dennis, uh, that I kind of got

198

schooled in, in all of this and did some

experiments, made, made some tools myself.

199

Uh, I later went on to, to, uh,

spend about nine years at Gensler.

200

And at Gensler, I wasn't

building anything.

201

Gensler, my role wasn't to start building

202

extranets for them.

203

They had different people doing

that, but at Gensler, I did spend

204

a lot of time with the architects

kind of studying design process.

205

it was very interesting, I have to say.

206

Gensler has a research division.

207

They have some books on Amazon,

which are quite, quite good.

208

If you can, you can buy their research

books, and that, that was very

209

interesting from just what is design?

210

How does, how do design

firms, uh, produce value?

211

Like, what's the value they

provide to their client?

212

And the study of that is really what

That led to me starting Tonic in that,

213

you know, I could see a practical need

for tools to manage information, but

214

there's also a bigger picture about

what is the role of design firms when it

215

comes to information generation and value

generation in the construction industry.

216

So, um,

217

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

218

So, so maybe we can use that as the

kind of transition to, you know, what's

219

the, what is tonic DM, what, and what,

what was the original, um, you know,

220

problem that you kind of set out,

thought that you could solve with it.

221

And then, you know,

ultimately how has it evolved?

222

Reg Prentice: yeah, so even, you

know, I always thought being in

223

the kind of design technology world

that a solution would be imminent.

224

It was like, man, should I create this

iShare product for Gehry's back in,

225

you know, the late 90s, early 2000s?

226

I was like, no, it'd be

a waste of time because,

227

you know, within six months

or a year, there's got to be

228

a product for this, right?

229

And, and I would say today, other than

Tonic, there really isn't, you know,

230

um, because for a product like this

to be effective, it has to be simple.

231

Automated and, larger firms have

IT resources, but typically they're

232

not focused on this kind of thing.

233

so something has to just be, you

know, You know, trivial to spin up.

234

So it got to the point when I was

at Gensler that I was just like,

235

nobody is building this, right?

236

It just doesn't exist in the market.

237

So I decided to, to give it a go,

you know, as a enterprising chap.

238

So,

239

Randall Stevens: If you, yeah, if you

knew better, if, if, for, for those of us

240

that get that, that do this for a living,

it's like, man, if you knew before you

241

started how hard it was going to

be, maybe you wouldn't have ever

242

started, but that's the, that's

243

the life of

244

Reg Prentice: I think in the,

I think in the entrepreneurial

245

journey, there was a time when I was

very concerned that it would fail.

246

Right, that I would build

something, people wouldn't like

247

it, it would not get traction.

248

And then I got to the point where

I was just like, no, I don't

249

really care about that anymore.

250

It's like, obviously I want it to

succeed, but if it doesn't, you

251

know, I'll, I'll get another job.

252

Right.

253

And, uh,

254

Randall Stevens: It's a healthy attitude.

255

I think.

256

Reg Prentice: yeah, and I think for,

you know, most businesses fail, right.

257

It's, uh, it's common.

258

So one has to be prepared for that.

259

And it wasn't until I kind of

thought to myself, you know,

260

I want to try it, even if.

261

I try and fail.

262

I still want to know that I've tried.

263

So, so the initial concept was, it, it

wasn't based on iShare specifically, but

264

it was, it was the same value proposition.

265

Like, it was, it has to be ready day one.

266

Very trivial to spin up a

project to get the thing running.

267

You have to be able to share super easily.

268

You know, no friction.

269

Um, initially, Tonic

didn't do email filing.

270

Um, and, and that was because I didn't

want to create modules that were just

271

the same thing as was already available.

272

And there are simple email filing

tools available, like, that's not new.

273

So we didn't create email

filing thinking people can just

274

use existing tools for that.

275

But we created some RFI

and submittal tools.

276

And the file sharing tools and

team management, and it was all

277

cloud based, you know, it was

trivial to sign up, create an

278

account, start putting in projects.

279

Um, and, uh, I was looking back

at the timeline because, you know,

280

one forgets, so it was actually

281

And In September 2016, we

had our first user, uh,

282

Randall Stevens: You're about

the same, uh, uh, lineage

283

as, as our work on the avail.

284

We probably started in, or sometime

285

a year and then kind of had something

that we could put in people's hands and

286

then spent another year kind of beta.

287

So

288

that was kind of our, our process too.

289

Reg Prentice: Yeah.

290

Randall Stevens: was going to ask, uh,

before, uh, before I lose this, like with.

291

This, uh, this idea that you

didn't want to reinvent things that

292

were kind of already out there.

293

I, I, I talk about this all the time.

294

It's like, if something is already

out there, I don't want to respend the

295

engineering efforts to reproduce that.

296

I'd rather

297

either support it or

point you towards that.

298

how much do you have to fight that?

299

And then when do you decide to give and

when do you hold your, hold your line

300

when customers are asking you to do this?

301

If you can point to another

solution that's out there, how do

302

you, just as a developer and, and,

you know, kind of product owner,

303

how do you make those decisions?

304

Reg Prentice: So, we do get that a

lot, particularly with field tools,

305

because Tonic doesn't have modules

for, uh, capturing images in the field

306

and putting together field reports

or, or doing punch list reports.

307

and so far, We've pointed customers

to other tools, like Layer.

308

team is one, and we've, I guess, explained

that, you know, for those companies, the

309

field work is their whole worldview, you

know, they, that's what they specialize

310

in, and if Tonic made one, it would

be second best to that, because, you

311

know, we're not specialists in field.

312

Uh, it's possible we would create a

tool like that at, at some point in

313

the future, but at the moment we have

to get what we're doing to be, you

314

know, as close to perfect as we can.

315

We don't want to split that development.

316

So we, we do have some prospective

customers who that's a problem for them,

317

but most customers, I think, understand,

you know, not every tool does everything

318

and you have to draw the boundaries.

319

Randall Stevens: Yeah, I think it's, uh,

I call it, I call it our swim lane and

320

defining that swim lane, you know, as

a company and a product is, uh, is, you

321

know, there's a lot of gray there, right?

322

Cause you can, you can,

323

venture over into a little bit

in this area, but then it's like,

324

um, my fear is always, if you

325

do a little bit, they're

going to want more.

326

And also you may

327

be drug, you know, completely

in a direction that

328

doesn't

329

Reg Prentice: that's natural, right?

330

You know, of course, you

know, that's going to happen.

331

Um, I'm also very concerned about

creating a half built tool that

332

just stays half built, which is, you

know, is a relative of what you were

333

talking about, where you just get

pulled into more and more features.

334

Like, it's possible that we create

a tool, we get it to a usable point,

335

but then we're not Committed enough to

keeping it evolving, and so it becomes

336

a kind of backwater of the software,

337

Randall Stevens: But it's still

code that has to be supported.

338

And

339

Reg Prentice: yeah, and

maintained and trained on.

340

Randall Stevens: big

341

challenge when you're doing, when you're

developing like this, that, um, you know,

342

I always talk about it with our team that

like, as soon as we add that somebody,

343

there's going to be one person who.

344

You know, thinks that it's like live

or die, that that has to be there and

345

nobody else cares that those become the

346

real challenges over time of

maintaining, you know, it's

347

just complexity in your product.

348

And

349

Reg Prentice: Right.

350

And complexity ultimately

kills the product, right?

351

So, uh, so it's, it's easy to get

dragged into that, uh, into that road.

352

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

353

you made that

354

you made the comment earlier, uh,

and I was probably smiling because,

355

uh, actually during our confluence

event last year, or maybe it was

356

year before last, I made a comment.

357

That was, uh, just because you

can, doesn't mean you should.

358

And you said that

359

Reg Prentice: Mm hmm.

360

Randall Stevens: it, it kind of

became a little bit of a mantra

361

during that, uh, during that

confluence, uh, sessions that, uh,

362

Reg Prentice: Mm hmm.

363

Randall Stevens: know, it's true and,

you know, I, I made the comment in

364

that I see it inside of, of firms

where, you know, there, there,

365

there's always problems and you're

always looking to solve that problem.

366

And sometimes it's like.

367

you know, trying to put out that fire like

quickly by either developing something

368

internally or going and buying just even

another product to kind of attack it.

369

But over time, what you end up with

are like, you know, hun, hundreds

370

hundred or 200 different things that

are now in place, and you get this

371

fragility from that and it's like, you

know, my, my perspective was always like.

372

Maybe sometimes you're creating more

problems longer term within the firm,

373

even trying to go put that fire out in

some immediate kind of quick fashion,

374

as opposed to kind of, you know,

375

Reg Prentice: Yeah.

376

We spend a lot of time removing things

from the product, and our goal is to be

377

able to achieve the same outcome and have

the same feature, but with less buttons.

378

So I'm, you know, one of the things that

I enjoy most is figuring out how to remove

379

a button while still keeping the same

380

Randall Stevens: I'm with you.

381

Uh,

382

we've had a couple of cycles where

we'll, we'll do a bunch of work,

383

you know, months, you know, six

months to a year worth of work on

384

a new, you know, set of features.

385

And, uh, my Testament is always like,

if the product actually feels like it

386

got simpler, but I know we just did

a bunch of work, then that's usually

387

like Testament.

388

I think it's exactly what

you're saying, which is

389

simpler is better.

390

And taking things away is hard.

391

Really hard.

392

Reg Prentice: yeah, taking

away a feature is hard,

393

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

394

Reg Prentice: Um, so, so I

often think that, that Tonic

395

sells the lack of features.

396

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

397

Reg Prentice: Right?

398

Like, our goal is to have as few

buttons as possible, um, while obviously

399

still, you know, producing the result.

400

Randall Stevens: Yeah, I think, you

know, it's easy to point at Apple and

401

what they did, but, you know, it's like

402

the success of these devices, right?

403

The, the iPad and the iPhone, obviously,

me, it's like , they were religiously

404

trying to take things away and

405

make it very simple, which, you know, um,

I think it's a form of democratizing this

406

for more people to make it usable for

407

more people, because, you know, we're not,

408

Yeah, we're not all wired

the same way and, you know,

409

Reg Prentice: One of the things that

I observed in InDesign technology and

410

practice was that complex software is used

by, very few people to its full extent.

411

Mm hmm.

412

Or even to half of its extent.

413

And so a company will often buy licenses

for everyone in the firm, but it's

414

possible that two or three people actually

get that value and maybe a hundred

415

people are not using it, or they're

using it badly, which is sometimes.

416

Even worse, because they'll make mistakes

and, you know, let's say, release things

417

that, that shouldn't have been released,

but they just did it because they didn't

418

understand how the software worked.

419

So, I think, you know, our mantra has

been simplicity has value, that the

420

way for companies to get value from

their software purchases is actually

421

through the simplicity of the software,

because you call it democratizing it.

422

so when we're looking at the software.

423

We're constantly thinking, how

would the average person look at

424

this, like a person who doesn't give

two hoots about a computer, right?

425

They're not into computers, they don't

care about the computer, like how

426

are they going to be a user of it?

427

Because we know that there are two

or three people in each firm who will

428

brute force their way into understanding

any software, just out of curiosity.

429

You know, force of will, but that

doesn't give value to a firm, right?

430

It only has value when the average person

is a competent user of the software.

431

Randall Stevens: I completely agree.

432

And, and I think it mirrors a lot of

our thinking as we, we've developed.

433

do you develop though, uh, advanced

features that are, Available.

434

Like, do you think about in your

development that there's kind of,

435

everybody starts with the basic,

but if they want to go deeper,

436

they can kind of get deeper.

437

How do you all think about that?

438

Reg Prentice: I think there's

always an element of that.

439

so, an example might be

when you're sharing files.

440

this was actually a user request.

441

It used to just say upload.

442

And they were like, but,

but where are my files?

443

Like, oh, and actually

just said send files.

444

Right?

445

And, and they were like,

but what am I going to send?

446

Right?

447

So naming of buttons so that the

names have to be short, but they

448

have to kind of really like much

more than I would have first thought.

449

They have to explain

what they're going to do.

450

So, uh, but if you take one that you've

already sent and the sidebar here,

451

you can add more recipients, right?

452

So it's, it's next to the

recipient list and there's a

453

toggle for add more recipients.

454

And if you click that, you can search for

people and then send to these recipients.

455

So I think that's an example of what

you were mentioning in that the, the

456

key is to put the The feature in the

place where someone might be looking

457

for it, make it descriptive and then

make it just very simple, right?

458

So you add the people you send

to these recipients, you can BCC

459

yourself, and what happens in

the background is pretty complex.

460

And this is something I think you've

talked about too, Randall, is, um, you

461

know, the simpler it appears to the user,

it's inversely proportional to how much

462

work it was to actually make that feature.

463

Randall Stevens: the

464

backend is usually inversely

proportional to the simplicity.

465

Reg Prentice: So when you do send

this, uh, it actually creates a

466

second transmittal so that the fact

that one person got it on one day and

467

the other person didn't get it until

a second day is actually recorded,

468

you know, for the, for the record.

469

and it actually.

470

reactivated the link itself,

added another month to the link.

471

So I, I think you're right.

472

You have to have advanced features

because the world is complicated, right?

473

Uh, but they have to be presented in a way

that doesn't appear like it's an advanced

474

Randall Stevens: Yeah, I think, I

think one thing that, you know, just

475

even the example that you're showing

is I've seen software, um, where.

476

You, the complexity gets put on the front

end and it's like a bunch of decisions

477

are being made as, as opposed to what's

the simplest form of this and then.

478

As a second or third step, give the

option of kind of getting more complex.

479

You

480

need to, I think, I think I would agree.

481

And it looks like that's the,

the way that you all have kind

482

of developed this, but I've,

483

I've seen some software, you know,

we all know complicated software

484

that we've had in our life.

485

And it's like the more options sometimes

that are on the front end of it.

486

I think it's, it, it does create

one, it makes it very hard

487

to learn and then can be very

488

Reg Prentice: Mm hmm.

489

Randall Stevens: think, on the

front end for, for users to kind of

490

understand what you're, you know,

what they're, what they're doing.

491

What the intent of it.

492

Reg Prentice: I think another

trick in that respect is instead of

493

creating project options, we just

wait for the person to do it the

494

first time and then we remember that.

495

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

496

Reg Prentice: So, so

there's no explicit option.

497

It's just taking a cue

from what the user did.

498

And, and.

499

Just saving that behind the scenes.

500

So, so tonic has very few options.

501

We're like, I personally am hugely

resistant to anything which requires

502

a, as you said, pre-setup and

pre-configuration because people

503

just, well, one, they don't do it

504

uh, they'll just use it

without pre configuring it.

505

And, and often you don't need to

pre-configure it because you can just

506

ask the question at the time that

it's first used and then just remember

507

Randall Stevens: remember it, right?

508

So

509

you build a, uh, do you end up building

a profile per user then that's kind

510

of customizing the, those workflows?

511

Reg Prentice: per user,

per project, per firm.

512

Right?

513

Uh, there are obviously some settings,

like, for example, each firm has their

514

own submittal stamp, and as much as I

would like to standardize submittal stamps

515

across the industry, like, you know, we're

not in that position, so we have to allow

516

each firm to type in the choices, and when

we're working with the customer to put

517

in the choices, I can just go, like, you

know, I can say to myself, right, these

518

are stupid choices, right, like, these two

are the same, these ones are meaningless,

519

but that's totally outside Tonics control,

like, that's their legal team has come

520

up with that, um, so those things, sure,

we make an option, but if it's just kind

521

of a, a usage of the software thing, that

doesn't need to be Pre established, right?

522

You don't need to make someone

go through a setup routine.

523

Randall Stevens: Yeah, that makes sense.

524

Yeah, I think about those.

525

Those are those kind of religious

words that you don't, you're

526

not going to fight, right?

527

It's a,

528

Reg Prentice: Yep.

529

Randall Stevens: okay, if that's

the way you're going to do

530

it, I'll just support it and

531

keep going, pick, pick a different

532

fight.

533

Reg Prentice: we do often get

users, I mean, we encourage, like,

534

we, we live off user feedback,

535

Randall Stevens: Sure.

536

Reg Prentice: And, and I would

say, I can't think of anything a

537

user has said, which, Which is just

being like, no, that's a dumb idea.

538

Like, when the users give feedback,

it's always like, wow, you're right.

539

Yep.

540

We can't always execute on it right away.

541

And unfortunately, there's some things

that we're like, that's an awesome idea.

542

It's super important, but it did

take us years to get there just

543

because of the way things happen.

544

But it's always insightful.

545

and I would say users do often

ask for options and answers.

546

They are, they ask for features, but

through discussing it with them, we

547

try to understand, like, how could

you do that without another, you

548

know, In quotes, feature, so that,

so that it just happens, right?

549

And

550

that's what we try to get

551

Randall Stevens: we get very similar.

552

Obviously lots of, lots of, You know,

feedback and comments and requests that

553

come through and, you know, our process

that we try to go through is to, uh,

554

always think about it as it takes a

level of interpretation, so you have to

555

take what people have asked you, they,

they can only ask you what you want

556

Reg Prentice: Right.

557

Randall Stevens: on their, their

knowledge and understanding,

558

which may not be about technology.

559

And it may be a direct response to

something that's already in the software.

560

And it's like our job really

should be to take that, try to

561

empathize with what they're,

562

what they're trying.

563

And a lot of times, as you said, that

takes going back and, you know, a good,

564

the best customers are the ones that are

willing to jump on a call and When you,

565

when you ask and say, Hey, would

you explain this a little bit more?

566

What's the problem?

567

you know, even your example there earlier

that you showed of the, uh, being more

568

explicit about the, the, verbiage on

the, on the buttons, you know, or on

569

those tabs, you know, that's a, That's

a challenge because you can imagine

570

wanting to be like, I want that to be

very simple and I don't want that to

571

Reg Prentice: Uh huh.

572

Randall Stevens: long anymore.

573

But, uh, you know, that's a, uh,

that's a great example because we, we

574

have those same kinds of challenges.

575

It's like things that we would think are

just like completely obvious is like, no,

576

maybe difference in nomenclature and, um,

577

Reg Prentice: when I'm doing feature mock

ups, I usually start with a lot of text,

578

like a lot of things

written out very explicitly.

579

And then Deb, who's my co founder,

like I'll, I'll run her through it.

580

And she's just like.

581

It's way too much text.

582

Randall Stevens: right, right.

583

Reg Prentice: So it's usually through,

well, initially a back and forth

584

with Deb, where we just try to trim

and trim and trim down to something

585

which is visually simple, right?

586

And then, and then go to users

as well, show them, you know,

587

we do as much as possible.

588

We'll just bring up Figma and

just go through things with

589

users and get their feedback.

590

Uh, just trying to understand how.

591

Different people will look at it

and what they will see, you know,

592

when we, when, when a screen comes

593

Randall Stevens: Yeah,

we do, we do the same.

594

We've got a feature that we're

developing about to release right now.

595

And, you know, this one is allowing

you to create PDFs, uh, from, you

596

know, content that's, you know,

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's Images,

597

putting images like on a canvas.

598

And so anyway, the, the internally, you

know, this is going on right now, but

599

there's been this little internal name

and sometimes you try to be kind of

600

clever, like you're trying to come up with

601

a, a cool name for this thing.

602

And, you know, my feedback the other

day with, uh, Eric on our team was

603

like, why don't we just call it PDF

export Like exactly what it is, right?

604

Like , you know.

605

And you know,

606

that's a, it's a good example because

it's primary use case is going to

607

be to create PDFs, but we've also

creating the export of like JPEG or PNG.

608

There's other choices.

609

So now the question is, is like, do

you try to step all the way back?

610

Or are you making this way more

complicated than it needs to be?

611

Just call it PDF export.

612

But if you want to do a JPEG or

PNG, it's in there too, right?

613

It's like, yeah,

614

yeah, yeah.

615

Export.

616

but these are the kinds of things I think

617

from a dev standpoint that, uh, you know,

it's what we try to do on this podcast.

618

We're trying to get people that

are building these tools to come

619

on and talk about, you know,

this is the behind the scenes.

620

This is the kinds of stuff that we

have to think about and, and, uh,

621

the way the sausage is actually made.

622

Reg Prentice: And naming is so hard

and naming a company is the hardest.

623

Randall Stevens: So,

624

So,

625

so give us that.

626

What's the backstory?

627

Reg Prentice: I used to kind of

laugh at people's company names.

628

And now I'm just like, man, like you

629

Randall Stevens: It's hard.

630

Reg Prentice: like, yeah, I

can just imagine them trying

631

to think of a company name.

632

Yeah.

633

So Tonic, we went through

many, or several names.

634

One, we came up with Copper, which

I thought was a great name because

635

it's like a high quality material.

636

It has a patina,

637

Randall Stevens: Ages well,

looks better over time.

638

Okay.

639

Reg Prentice: project management system.

640

It's for the film industry.

641

It's not for AEC, but I was just

like, man, too close, right?

642

Too close.

643

So, uh, So Tonic ended up just being like,

Well, we've got to call it something,

644

and it sounds kind of refreshing, tonic,

645

Randall Stevens: Who doesn't like a

646

good gin and tonic?

647

Reg Prentice: yep, it's, it's the same

word in all languages, so anywhere

648

in the world, it's going to mean the

same thing, which is always a problem

649

with, with words that have different

meanings and different cultures.

650

And then the DM is just,

well, you can't buy tonic.

651

com, right?

652

Uh,

653

and so, uh, uh, you just have

to add some letters to it.

654

Randall Stevens: Should have been RP.

655

Why wasn't it RP?

656

Tonic RP.

657

Reg Prentice: Well, DM was for

document management, right?

658

So, and, and again, it's like, I'm

not sure anyone really knows that, but

659

in the end, it doesn't really matter.

660

I think the biggest downside of

the word tonic is that sometimes

661

people get mistakenly called toxic.

662

but, uh, you know, I don't know.

663

Maybe that's a

664

Randall Stevens: No, I kind of,

uh, you know, there's not that many

665

times in my career that I can kind

of can remember epiphany little

666

moment, you know, like a moment.

667

It's usually a made up story in hindsight

that it happened kind of in a moment.

668

But, uh, when we were working on

what became Avail, I do remember the

669

day that I was like, I ran around

the corner to the team and I'm like,

670

we're going to call this thing AVAIL.

671

I can remember that day, I

was like, it just came to me.

672

I'm like, this is what

it's going to be called.

673

it

674

wasn't, you know, it's like for

us, it was like the, uh, you know,

675

most people think it's like the

word Available but to avail your,

676

to avail yourself, right.

677

As a, as a word on its own.

678

And you know, that was

679

really the kind of intent around it.

680

So it just kind of was one of

those that's like, this is what

681

we're trying to do, you know,

682

avail all this

683

information to to, to your, so anyway,

684

Reg Prentice: Yeah.

685

so I can show you a Figma if you

686

Randall Stevens: yeah.

687

I would love to, love to see.

688

Reg Prentice: Let's see if I can

689

Randall Stevens: Yeah, it sounds

like you're using, we're probably

690

all using some of the same

kinds of tools today, right?

691

Figma is a great one for

laying these things out.

692

We do, we do walkthroughs as well,

and that allows us to mock this

693

stuff up and go talk to customers

well before we've written code.

694

Reg Prentice: Yeah.

695

So, Figma for me is a great way to think

through systems, um, so the way that

696

Figmas are built is as components, so,

uh, you drill down into UI components,

697

but the way that it is componentized in

Figma is also instructive to how the team

698

will build it and how a user will use it.

699

So, this is actually our new Outlook

sidebar, it's already being built, this

700

part of it is already built, it's built

on a new platform for us, so it's kind

701

of a, a ground up rebuild of our existing

stuff, um, I like Figma because it's, It's

702

very visual, obviously, and you just lay

out all the screens next to each other.

703

You can move around

and, and work on things.

704

The way that Figma componentizes,

um, is super helpful, and the

705

way that components get reused.

706

so I usually do a lot of

work here, uh, every day.

707

Um, particularly talking with customers

and then immediately jumping into

708

Figma and trying out a few things

and seeing how, how it would look.

709

Randall Stevens: do you

all, um, do you like create?

710

Like a story.

711

Is there a problem statement?

712

Like how, uh, how much do you do that

before you start kind of laying this out?

713

Reg Prentice: I think we have

several parallel tracks, I would say.

714

So we use JIRA and

Confluence from Atlassian.

715

Um, so our library, I'd call it

a library of Confluence and JIRA

716

materials has grown over eight years,

but originally I used just Google Docs

717

and had a template that I would use to

fill things in again, the earlier in

718

the process, I would say we wrote up.

719

Uh, detailed specs a lot more because

we were building from scratch.

720

Now we have this library of content.

721

So most of the features are

really, uh, It's just building on

722

something that's already there.

723

I, I actually find that very few

people will read somebody else's notes.

724

And I found that in, in, when I was

in practice as well, like I would

725

write up a lot of documentation,

the CAD manual, all of that stuff,

726

but no one ever reads it right.

727

It's, I'm really writing it for

728

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

729

I was going to say, it's kind of

cathartic though, uh, to, to even clear

730

your own head and to get it on paper.

731

Reg Prentice: Right.

732

And to understand what you're

going to tell someone to make

733

sure that you have it right.

734

So Figma and Confluence, For me, uh,

are really just me making sure that I

735

know what I'm going to tell someone.

736

But most of the time, uh, you know,

we have a stand up meeting every day.

737

Um, and then we have meetings as needed.

738

So most of it is, it's

just conversational.

739

So I'll explain to someone and show them,

walk them through what they need to build.

740

Uh, and then there's a level of

understanding and then they build it.

741

And often it's a little bit different,

but often it's also better than what I had

742

originally thought was going to be built.

743

But it, I would say it's,

it's only semi formal at best.

744

Randall Stevens: what does the

team look like, Reg, that's, that's

745

actually building the product?

746

Reg Prentice: So there are

15 people at Tonic now.

747

and, there are 8 coders, 8, 8 engineers.

748

So, uh, I don't know if it's, uh, for

me, it's kind of important that more

749

than half the company is an engineer, are

actually engineers who build products,

750

you know, I'd like it to be, as

we get bigger, maybe 80 percent

751

of the company are software

engineers building the product, um,

752

Randall Stevens: it's usually,

753

it's usually though, um,

kind of the opposite, right?

754

The, as the org grows or the

product is, you know, more popular.

755

I think the, Probably norm is

like 25 percent ends up kind

756

of dev, you know, as opposed to

757

half.

758

But, you know, I think when you're, are

kind of sizes, right, we're about the

759

same size as what you're describing.

760

And I think it is, you know, you're

usually about half and half, right?

761

You got half the house that's

762

selling and maintaining and

the other half is building.

763

So

764

Reg Prentice: yeah, I would like to

think that as Tonic grows, the Number

765

of software engineer or the percent of

software engineers also grows rather

766

than shrinks because my understanding is

that at the very large firms, it might

767

be 10 percent is engineering, like the

sales and marketing departments are

768

Randall Stevens: It's own beast.

769

Yeah.

770

Reg Prentice: yeah, and I, I'd like

to think that could be avoided.

771

Uh, I mean, we, we're able to achieve

the level that we do just through,

772

through several forms of efficiency.

773

So one is backend, you know, overhead

systems like accounting and HR and stuff.

774

I just, Practically automated,

right, which is possible now.

775

in the digital age, uh, you can

outsource and automate just so

776

much of the overhead, uh, stuff.

777

And, you know, if you build a great

product that has word of mouth.

778

I mean, that's the best

marketing you can have.

779

Right?

780

Um, so we actually just hired our first

marketing person, um, which is awesome.

781

but it's interesting to think we've got

to eight years in without marketing.

782

Um, and you know, one salesperson.

783

And so again, if you, if

we keep sales simple and.

784

Chris, who's our salesperson,

works autonomously, right?

785

Like, he doesn't need sign off to do

anything, which, I think it, uh, Maybe

786

more established companies, you end up

with sales organizations where the sales

787

people are battling their own organization

as much as they are trying to make sales.

788

But if you streamline all that,

I think, you know, so far, at

789

least we've been able to minimize

expenditure in overhead and just focus

790

everything on software development.

791

And that's our goal as we move

forward is to is to keep that culture.

792

Randall Stevens: Yeah, I agree.

793

The more resources you can keep

towards, uh, what the customer is

794

going to end up seeing and using every

day, the, the better, um, you know

795

Reg Prentice: I think it's more fun.

796

You know, it's like hopefully working

at Tonic is is fun and all of that

797

fun comes from the fact that people

are empowered like software engineers.

798

We, as I was saying, we, I kind of

explained to them what we need and

799

show them and we talk about it.

800

Right.

801

But.

802

They go off and they do it, and that's

possible because we've hired people who

803

work independently and are smart, right?

804

And so we don't have to oversee them in

a traditional kind of hierarchical sense.

805

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

806

I was going to make a comment too about

the sales and keeping your sales simple.

807

You know, I think that's probably a

Testament of, or a reflection of, you

808

know, you're not making up a new price

for every, there's not a new negotiation.

809

It's like a lot of transparency and

things that used to be, you know, kind

810

of this more complicated processes.

811

you know, I think there's been just a

big movement over the last, you know,

812

10, 15 years for make this simple.

813

Uh, you know, subscription models have

made that somewhat simpler, right?

814

It's like,

815

Reg Prentice: Yeah.

816

Randall Stevens: so it's just

817

not even as complicated on the

front end on the sales, which I

818

think then reduces your

need for, you know, That

819

Reg Prentice: Yeah.

820

I mean, we don't have discounts.

821

We only have two products, so, uh,

it's super simple and, and Chris,

822

I don't need to, to monitor Chris,

like, he, he does everything to do

823

with sales and it's fine with me.

824

Yeah,

825

Randall Stevens: what's

kind of on the plate?

826

What's new that you guys are working on

that, uh, people can look forward to?

827

Reg Prentice: a lot of what we're

doing is on the platform level.

828

Um, we want to be able to offer.

829

Data residency, particularly while

still maintaining like a single Tonic

830

system, which is a complex back end

and kind of data structure undertaking.

831

So we're working on that so that

customers will be able to choose.

832

The country that their company data

and separately each project data is

833

hosted in, um, you know, our Canadian

customers, you know, so far, they've

834

been generous with us, like, yeah, it'd

be better if it was hosted in Canada.

835

Uh, in the same with UK

and Australia customers.

836

So we want to be able

to offer that to them.

837

So that's an example of

just platform development.

838

Randall Stevens: do y'all build in, um,

Azure, AWS or Google or where are you?

839

Reg Prentice: it's actually 100 percent

AWS and we're really doubling down on

840

AWS because again, if you simplify.

841

and say, we're just going

to use AWS for everything.

842

You can radically simplify the,

it's called DevOps, you know, the

843

management of the backend of the

844

Randall Stevens: We've

done the same thing.

845

Yep.

846

We've done the same thing.

847

Reg Prentice: yeah, so we have

really efficient deploying, so we

848

can deploy and pull back deployments,

you know, just with buttons.

849

Infrastructure as code is a, is something

that we're now, Getting pretty good at,

850

um, some of our engineers have cracked

that one, so we can spin up services,

851

take down services, uh, through scripts,

basically, well, in, in AWS, you can

852

run it as buttons, and, it's a security

and platform maturity play as well,

853

in that you want The platform to be

managed through code so that everything

854

is automatically audited, uh, so that

we can, we, we develop in one AWS

855

account and, and production is another,

so that only very, very few people

856

have access to the production account.

857

But with infrastructure as

code, it's, it's easy to.

858

practice and different AWS accounts, you

know, run simulations, and then finally

859

you deploy it into the production account.

860

Um, also on that platform side, uh, single

tenanting is something that we'll have

861

probably in the not too distant future.

862

And again, the same infrastructure

is code so that you can spin up AWS

863

accounts for individual customers.

864

so that's kind of a, a lot of

platform work, which is, you know,

865

the customer sees very little of that.

866

You know, you know, maybe there

becomes a brochure or bullet point.

867

Oh, we can now host your

data in different countries.

868

Right.

869

Uh,

870

which looks simple,

871

Randall Stevens: it seems like

these, uh, you know, I'll just

872

say either requirements or

what's interesting to people.

873

You know, comes in waves.

874

We can kind of see it like, it seems

like about every six months, there's

875

something different, you know, if we

were joking about the other day, it's

876

like, things will ripple through.

877

And all of a sudden that's all you

hear, or you'll hear it several times

878

for six months when it goes away.

879

Like the, the, the data, um, actually

just security as a whole, uh, you

880

know, right, or was it right before

the pandemic or right around that time?

881

It seemed like we were getting all

of these, like we would get RFPs

882

and, and, uh, And some, you know,

100 page technical document that they

883

were wanting us to, you know, and

then they just kind of went away.

884

It's like, okay, so I'm not sure what was

causing that, but it seems like a lot of

885

these kind of themes, come and go, right?

886

I don't know if you have

the same experience or not.

887

Reg Prentice: Yeah, I think so.

888

And I think the trick as the product

manager is to know which ones have true

889

importance and which ones are fads.

890

I think for me, perhaps growing

up, uh, outside of the U S.

891

is useful in the sense that, uh, I

think, well, I hope I'm attuned to the

892

kind of cultural differences that, uh,

particularly the, the colonies, you know,

893

Australia, New Zealand, UK, uh, Canada,

kind of, and, and how people do really

894

value the, Some things differently and,

uh, data residency, like is actually

895

like important for them, right?

896

So sometimes you'll get away with it,

like some companies that maybe are

897

closer to the US in terms of their, uh,

culture, but for a lot of companies,

898

it's a non starter, you know, if, if, if

you, if you can't host in, in their geo.

899

so that's something that we've thought

about from the very beginning of Tonic.

900

It's taken this long to.

901

To get to the maturity stage where

we can start to offer it though.

902

Randall Stevens: many regions

do you support in AWS?

903

Reg Prentice: Uh, well, currently

it's, it's all just, uh, U.

904

S.

905

East, U.

906

S.

907

East 1.

908

so that's the goal of the new platform

Rebuild is that it'll be designed

909

to, to be able to host in any, AWS

region, but just running the basic

910

infrastructure is quite expensive in

a region, so it's not like we're to

911

spin up in all regions simultaneously.

912

It'll be based on customer

913

Randall Stevens: Yeah, we,

uh, we host in US East and we

914

also have servers in Sydney.

915

And, you

916

know, between those kind of, you know,

you know, the Sydney will serve really

917

just Australia and New Zealand for us.

918

Um, what we'll do is when we have a

customer anywhere in the world, some of

919

the first stuff we try to do is just to

make sure that, you know, the latency.

920

of talking to either the USD

servers or those Sydney servers.

921

We just kind of measure that.

922

And then, you know, there's probably a

need coming up soon for us to maybe drop

923

some in, in Europe, uh, just to get a

924

little closer.

925

But for the most part, you know,

the internet speeds are enough and

926

being, you know, the, the latency is

low enough for what we've been doing

927

that, uh, hadn't been a huge problem.

928

Reg Prentice: Yeah, another thing

we're putting quite a bit of

929

work into is data import when a

customer first comes on board.

930

again, that's something that it's

not part of the core product, like an

931

existing customer doesn't value that,

but, we have put an enormous amount of

932

effort into it, years of development,

which is, and development, which is

933

ongoing and, and that's because for new

customers, it's critical, right, to be

934

able to bring all their data with them.

935

Um, so we have super high fidelity import.

936

of data.

937

So a customer spinning up,

it's pretty much seamless now.

938

Randall Stevens: kind of systems

or is that data coming out of Reg?

939

Reg Prentice: So that's

primarily Newforma.

940

We also have many customers

that come from public folders

941

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

942

Reg Prentice: and some

from no system at all.

943

So they still have data

they need to import.

944

So we have a variety of tools that

we use in different circumstances.

945

that will rebuild that data in

Tonic, you know, including all its

946

linked emails, uh, notes, you know,

all of that comes across settings.

947

Um, so that's been a, yeah, like

a, a four year effort or something,

948

and we're still going on it, but

it's just because, you know, it's,

949

it's par for the course, right?

950

You've got to be able to do

that if you want to, uh, if

951

you want to win a customer.

952

So, on the user facing side,

we're expanding our CA tools.

953

So we now have the first

version of change orders.

954

again, it was something where.

955

we created a, what I would call a

complete change order system that would

956

work for different, AEC users, with

a high level of functionality, but

957

it turns out most, of the customers

actually only use part of it.

958

So we're initially launching

a kind of change order light,

959

which is really simple.

960

And also very powerful.

961

It's based on spreadsheets that

customers gave us of how they do it now.

962

Right.

963

And so we looked at, okay, what are they

doing in the spreadsheet and how do we

964

make it as close to that as possible?

965

Randall Stevens: is that where they were

actually doing that work or tracking

966

it was in a spreadsheet typically?

967

yeah,

968

Reg Prentice: and so we were able

to come up with something which I

969

think is going to be very fast to

use because it's simple, right?

970

And that's what people value.

971

And then we have the full backend running.

972

We're just not going

to expose it initially.

973

We actually have quite a lot of Tonic

like that, that you only get access if you

974

ask for it, and it's not like people pay.

975

It's just that we don't turn it on

unless you ask for it because it keeps

976

everything simpler if you don't need it.

977

so I think we'll, we'll then

look at how to start to.

978

work with other customers that want

the more sophisticated change order

979

functionality and start to refine that

so that there'll be, you can operate at

980

different levels of complexity, let's

say, depending on what you need and that

981

the, the UI will scale appropriately.

982

Randall Stevens: That makes sense.

983

You bring up point that I'm not clear

about, or just because I'm not as intimate

984

with your platform, but, um, do you buy,

when you buy Tonic, are you buying access

985

to everything, or do you all break it

up into modules and you can decide which

986

modules you want to, and pay different?

987

How have you thought

about going about that?

988

Reg Prentice: yeah, and just like

with company names, you know, every

989

company goes through a million

different, uh, ways to sell the product.

990

what we've come to is that there

are just two levels, what we call

991

standard and standard plus CA.

992

So, if a company doesn't use the CA

tools at all, then they would typically

993

just buy, uh, enterprise standard.

994

So they would buy a license of

standard for each person that uses

995

email, which is typically everybody.

996

then for companies that want to

use CA, those users will pay the

997

higher price for standard plus CA.

998

So if you had a hundred people.

999

You could have a hundred

standard or you might have 80

00:57:19,919 --> 00:57:22,379

standard and 20 standard plus CA.

00:57:22,439 --> 00:57:26,909

So you're only paying for the CA upgrade

for the people who you think will use it,

00:57:27,619 --> 00:57:30,119

but we don't, we don't actually limit it.

00:57:30,399 --> 00:57:32,859

Every company gets unlimited access.

00:57:33,639 --> 00:57:40,119

the billing or the sales part of it is

just a negotiation between two businesses.

00:57:40,586 --> 00:57:43,726

you know, in, in the eighties,

you know, people pirated software.

00:57:43,766 --> 00:57:48,174

And so The software companies didn't

know who was using their software,

00:57:48,782 --> 00:57:52,372

but now with cloud tools, it's

like, we know what they're doing.

00:57:52,482 --> 00:57:52,572

Right?

00:57:53,482 --> 00:57:57,112

so we want them to think that

they're getting great value.

00:57:57,932 --> 00:57:58,282

Right?

00:57:58,492 --> 00:58:02,282

And we want us to think, like,

we're getting properly remunerated

00:58:02,312 --> 00:58:04,362

for, for providing the software.

00:58:04,792 --> 00:58:07,822

And as long as both those things

are true, then we're happy.

00:58:08,410 --> 00:58:09,750

Randall Stevens: I call it being gracious.

00:58:10,210 --> 00:58:10,620

I want our,

00:58:10,850 --> 00:58:12,760

I want our licensing to be gracious.

00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:17,160

And, uh, and, uh, don't, you know,

the other way to think about it is

00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,425

I don't want, I don't want friction.

00:58:19,455 --> 00:58:21,475

I don't want to attack,

attack, whatever word

00:58:21,475 --> 00:58:24,245

you want to use on you using the product.

00:58:24,245 --> 00:58:25,935

I want you to get value out of it.

00:58:26,365 --> 00:58:27,175

And then we'll just agree

00:58:27,205 --> 00:58:30,325

from a business standpoint, if you got

value, you're going to pay, pay us for it.

00:58:30,335 --> 00:58:30,505

So,

00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:31,820

Reg Prentice: Exactly.

00:58:31,820 --> 00:58:32,090

Yeah.

00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,590

And, and it's an admin thing as well.

00:58:34,620 --> 00:58:38,300

Like Tonic is, is practically zero admin.

00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:39,130

Right.

00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:43,110

And, and, and part of that is you

don't have to name users or turn

00:58:43,110 --> 00:58:47,040

people on or off or worry about

people not getting access to the tool

00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:48,420

they need at the time they need it.

00:58:48,877 --> 00:58:50,387

It's a huge time saver.

00:58:50,707 --> 00:58:52,097

And again, simplicity, right?

00:58:52,307 --> 00:58:53,987

It simplifies administration.

00:58:53,987 --> 00:58:55,187

It simplifies our life.

00:58:55,197 --> 00:58:56,877

We don't have to chase after people.

00:58:57,187 --> 00:58:59,377

We don't have to cut license

keys or anything like that.

00:59:00,307 --> 00:59:03,097

Uh, which helps us keep

our team small, right?

00:59:03,137 --> 00:59:03,357

and

00:59:03,457 --> 00:59:03,817

Randall Stevens: focused.

00:59:03,817 --> 00:59:06,037

on product, not licensing

00:59:06,097 --> 00:59:07,047

and, uh, you know,

00:59:07,157 --> 00:59:07,457

Reg Prentice: Yep.

00:59:07,557 --> 00:59:08,147

Exactly.

00:59:08,287 --> 00:59:08,687

Randall Stevens: of that.

00:59:08,687 --> 00:59:09,047

Right.

00:59:09,057 --> 00:59:09,467

So that's,

00:59:09,767 --> 00:59:10,157

Reg Prentice: Yep.

00:59:10,767 --> 00:59:11,407

Randall Stevens: well, good.

00:59:11,777 --> 00:59:16,407

Well, uh, Reg, I know, Evan, you know,

couldn't be on here today with us,

00:59:16,407 --> 00:59:20,637

but I know he was, uh, he was looking

forward to it, but, um, glad that,

00:59:20,857 --> 00:59:25,788

uh, you could join me, and thanks for

being able to share, you know, some of

00:59:25,788 --> 00:59:29,298

the, a glimpse into what the backend

process looks like, it's always,

00:59:29,453 --> 00:59:32,743

interesting to see and hear, and what

we hope is those that are watching,

00:59:32,911 --> 00:59:35,801

that are tuning into the podcast

are finding it interesting too, it's

00:59:35,801 --> 00:59:39,201

kind of like the, Peek behind the

curtain of how all this is done.

00:59:39,201 --> 00:59:41,571

So, uh, I appreciate your coming on.

00:59:41,888 --> 00:59:44,768

Reg Prentice: appreciate it, Randall

and, and Evan and, and absentia.

00:59:45,218 --> 00:59:48,668

And I think it's, it's, it's great to

share this stuff because there's so much

00:59:48,668 --> 00:59:51,608

room for innovation and opportunity.

00:59:51,718 --> 00:59:54,478

And we're seeing that, like, I

can't believe how many companies

00:59:54,528 --> 00:59:56,758

there are now producing stuff.

00:59:56,818 --> 00:59:58,938

And, you know, the more, the merrier.

00:59:58,938 --> 01:00:04,808

It's, uh, it's, it's a part of, uh,

society and technology that needs as

01:00:04,808 --> 01:00:07,128

much innovation as we can, we can drive.

01:00:07,798 --> 01:00:09,808

Randall Stevens: Yeah, no,

I was also gonna say thanks.

01:00:09,868 --> 01:00:10,798

Um, you know.

01:00:11,372 --> 01:00:16,272

Last year when you came to the regional

confluence event and presented there,

01:00:16,842 --> 01:00:19,552

you know, that's part of this too, is

that we're, uh, we're trying to have

01:00:19,552 --> 01:00:24,062

these, we're doing, um, I don't know when

this episode will, we'll end up getting,

01:00:24,072 --> 01:00:27,082

it'll probably be post our New York,

but we're doing an event next weekend.

01:00:27,722 --> 01:00:31,892

New York City around AI and machine

learning, um, and, you know, bringing

01:00:32,512 --> 01:00:35,722

the practitioners and the people

building these tools into the same room.

01:00:35,782 --> 01:00:38,342

Um, you know, we like to

promote everything that

01:00:38,342 --> 01:00:39,572

we're doing with confluences.

01:00:39,572 --> 01:00:41,292

You know, nobody's trying

to sell anybody anything.

01:00:41,292 --> 01:00:44,248

We're just trying to Understand what's

going on, what we should be thinking

01:00:44,248 --> 01:00:49,968

about, and it really does take, um, it

takes this, uh, sharing and, and being

01:00:49,968 --> 01:00:54,188

able to have these open conversations to,

I think, progress the industry and learn,

01:00:54,658 --> 01:00:59,507

um, so I really appreciate your coming on

and, and also participating in our, live

01:00:59,507 --> 01:01:01,227

Confluence events that we've had as well.

01:01:01,443 --> 01:01:01,813

Reg Prentice: Well, thanks

01:01:02,108 --> 01:01:02,538

Randall Stevens: All right.