Dare to Go Big with Casey Lowery at Applied Innovation
Episode 13815th December 2023 • Total Michigan • Cliff Duvernois
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In this episode of Total Michigan, host Cliff Duvernois sits down with Casey Lowery, the President of Applied Innovation, a technology company based out of Grand Rapids, Michigan. They discuss the company's journey from a startup in the copier and printer industry to its explosive growth into a tech giant with a strong presence in various states. As part of a family-run business, Casey discusses his experiences stepping into different roles within the company and his transition into his current position as President. The discussion provides unique insights into how Applied Innovation maintained its customer-focused ethos while growing and diversifying their services. The company's unique culture, transition into the IT space, and their approach to customer service are all discussed, revealing a story of perseverance, strategic growth, and the power of a service-centric approach.

Links from this Interview:

Applied Innovation Website: https://www.appliedinnovation.com/

Children's Healing Center: https://childrenshealing.org/

Simon Sinek Start with Why Ted Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZoJKF_VuA

Atomic Habits Book: https://a.co/d/9TQiYwE

Transcripts

Cliff Duvernois:

Today's episode is brought to you by the Stevens Center

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for Family Business, whose mission

is to support the success of family

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businesses through the generations with

education, networking and collaboration.

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Casey Lowery: Another mentor of mine

always says is that a lot of companies

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that, that are successful stop doing

the things that got them where they are.

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So for me, my number one thing is

to make sure that I stay true to

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the foundation that my dad's built.

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And make sure that customers have

awareness of all the different things

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that we do and make sure that we're

staying relevant for the next 35 years.

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One

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Cliff Duvernois: Hello, everyone, and

welcome back to Total Michigan, where

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we interview ordinary Michiganders

doing some pretty extraordinary things.

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I'm your host, Cliff DuVernois.

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So, Michigan over the years has

been changing, and I knew at some

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point in time I was going to be

talking to somebody running a

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technology company here in Michigan.

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If you've been paying attention to

the news, you will see that, uh, you

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know, our governor, our legislator is

working really hard to try to bring

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more tech business into Michigan.

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And I'm happy today because we

actually have a company that was

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actually founded in Michigan that is

doing some pretty amazing things over

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the last 35 plus years that they've

been in business in the IT space.

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With that being said, today we are

joined by Casey Lowery, President of

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Applied Innovation out of Grand Rapids.

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Casey, how are you?

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Casey Lowery: I'm doing great, Cliff.

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I really appreciate you having me

on the show and just excited to

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spend some time with you today.

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Cliff Duvernois: your story.

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Where are you from?

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Where did you grow up?

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Casey Lowery: So, born and

raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

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Moved around a little bit.

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But I'm, probably about a

mile from where I grew up.

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So, really close to Burton and

Breton here in, in Grand Rapids.

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Like I said, born and raised,

went to high school downtown.

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And then, after I graduated

from high school, uh, moved

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away for, moved away for school.

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Where did you go to school?

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I went to Indiana University,

Kelly School of Business.

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So, moved down there.

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It was about six hours away at the time.

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Now, there's faster ways to get

there than there used to be.

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But, uh, yeah, wanted to get

away, but knew I wanted to,

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go to business school, so.

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Cliff Duvernois: the decide to go there?

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Casey Lowery: at the time, I, I

think for me it was a lot about

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getting away from Grand Rapids and

you know, seeing what I was made of.

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I knew that it was a good school.

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And I knew I wanted to go to a big school.

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So I think those couple of things

and, uh, when I went and visited, I

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just fell in love with the campus.

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Cliff Duvernois: Now what

did you get your degree in?

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Casey Lowery: So, I was, business.

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I was operations, and marketing.

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Cliff Duvernois: Now your father

started Applied Innovations when?

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Casey Lowery: It was, April Fool's Day of

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Cliff Duvernois: Now the

company is going in full swing.

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At some point after you graduated

from college, did you come and join

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your father's company at the time?

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Or did you go off and get some

experience someplace else?

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Casey Lowery: Yeah, so after I

graduated from IU, I decided that I

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wanted to get some sales experience.

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I felt like I, you know, my goal even

when I went to IU was to hopefully

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someday end up in the family business.

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But, I knew I wanted to go out and

get some additional experience.

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So, I actually went to work for, Rico,

Direct Operation out of the Detroit

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area and did that for two years.

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And then at the time, my wife, we weren't

married at the time, but my wife was

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looking to, to go to nursing school.

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And she transferred to Grand Valley

and felt like if we were going to move

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back to Grand Rapids, that it would

be a great time to hopefully join the

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business and see if I could help grow it.

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Cliff Duvernois: Now your father John

started Applied Innovation in '87

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So the question I got is why technology?

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Why get into that space

in the first place?

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Casey Lowery: I think entrepreneur,

entrepreneurs in general, I think they

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start businesses for a few reasons.

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One is, often they're high in control.

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I would say that he's

pretty high in control.

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And, if you go back, you know, the story

that he always tells me is that, he

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watched my grandpa lose his job after

he had been someplace for 33 years.

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For him, it was a sense of

security and really being able to

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kind of control his own destiny.

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The reason I think that he ended up

in the technology space, believe it

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or not, tech, you know, facsimile back

in the day in the 80s was technology.

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That was a space that he knew.

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He had worked for a place, that

ended up becoming a competitor.

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But that kind of goes back to,

really around the time when he

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left the, brass business, which

is where my grandpa was in.

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That was a, late seventies

that he got into that space.

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And, always, like I said, knew that

he wanted to have some control and

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be able to do something of his own.

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So

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Cliff Duvernois: Now your location

you started off with one location.

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Now you're up to 11?

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Casey Lowery: I 14.

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Cliff Duvernois: OK.

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I can count, by the way.

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Casey Lowery: Yeah, I

should, I should know that.

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I feel like off the top of my head.

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Cliff Duvernois: Okay, so

you're up to 14 locations.

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So first off, that's incredible.

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That really is.

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The second off, my question to you

is, is that when you came back to

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the company, how many locations

were you up to at that point?

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Casey Lowery: I believe we

had one sales rep in Lansing.

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Uh, We had a Kalamazoo location.

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And then we had a sales

office in Muskegon.

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So it was really three, I

say, but potentially four.

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You could call it four.

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We had one, like I said, one sales

rep, out of the Lansing area,

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Cliff Duvernois: So you started off

with, you had one location, you had

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a couple of small satellite offices.

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And then you come along

and join the company.

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But now here we are, you're

at 14 locations, you're

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across multiple states, right?

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You got Michigan, you got

Indiana, you've got Florida.

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The only word that comes to

mind is explosive growth, right?

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You guys are growing rapidly.

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What do you attribute that growth to?

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Casey Lowery: When you look at it, so I

started in:

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has you know, has been since then.

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But I, I think oftentimes people don't

look at the kind of the foundation

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of the things that were leading up

to some of that explosive growth.

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So I think that was always at our core.

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Actually, if you look back, there's

an article in my dad's office,

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and in 1997, he said, I think

we could be a hundred million in

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sales 17 offices across the state.

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So, so I think you, you know,

you kind of throw that out there.

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And I, I feel like even when I started,

a hundred million was kind of always

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our goal, and I, I don't know if I

even truly believed it, but then you

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hear it enough times, and you feel

like, everybody starts to buy in.

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so, and I think, we got

lucky along the way.

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We had right things

happen in the industry.

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So we, we've done quite a few

acquisitions over the years.

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And I think one thing that, other

people, like my dad, who are maybe

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looking to sell their business and

don't have an exit plan, a lot of

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times, we're a great option for them.

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Because they know that we

care about their people.

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And we're going to continue

to deliver great service.

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And we're going to take

care of their customers.

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So, I think when you put a few

of the acquisitions together.

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And then you look at some of our

strategies for organic growth, I just

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think it's kind of been a perfect storm.

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Cliff Duvernois: You made the comment

how you joined the company in:

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2008, you know, the economy

is melting down, and basically

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the whole country froze.

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what has kind of surprised you

the most about getting through

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those really tough times?

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Casey Lowery: When we look at like 2008

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I think it was 19 million in sales.

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And we did it the same the next year.

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And we felt like staying flat was

growth in the Great Recession.

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We did do one acquisition that I

feel like was super key back then.

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That really helped, catapult

us over that 20 million.

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And we always felt like there was

these hurdles that you had to get past.

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And that's something that we've

talked about over the years.

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But, I think specifically, again,

looking at that one, I remember one

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thing that we did back at that time.

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Because I, in 2006, I came

on and I was a sales rep.

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And I would go knock on doors.

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And, I still remember people not

knowing who Applied Innovation was.

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And at the time we were Applied Imaging.

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So I would go out and I would cold call.

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And I would, I would talk about

Applied and everything we had to offer.

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And I had to, teach people

who Applied even was.

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And, you know, You just get a little

bit of momentum with acquisition and,

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and, I wouldn't say the rest is history.

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But that really helped

catapult us through that time.

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Cliff Duvernois: So when you join

the company why Tell us about some

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of the things that really surprised

you when you joined the business.

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You joined business.

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Casey Lowery: Well, I would say we're,

as I mentioned, very entrepreneurial.

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So I would say we shoot

from the hip a little bit.

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So, know, I came from, uh, from Rico

Direct and it was very structured.

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Like I knew exactly what my territory was.

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I knew exactly what my quota was.

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I knew all of these things.

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And when I came on board here, I was

given a territory that someone else

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shared and I would go cold call.

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And, I had to come back and I

would try to put it in our CRM.

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And I'm like, I actually

can't call on that account.

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So for me, it was the lack of organization

made it very difficult for me.

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Although, I think in a lot of ways, being

able to shoot from the hip and being

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able to be flexible is also the reason

that we've been able to be so successful.

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Because we can react quickly to customer

requests and really take care of people

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the way they need to be taken care of.

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But yeah, certainly the lack

of some of that structure.

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And, you know, even today when we

look at it, we want to add structure

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to make sure that we can sustain.

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And we can continue to grow.

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But at the same time we want to make

sure there's not too much red tape.

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It's certainly a balance, so.

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Cliff Duvernois: One of the things I

know is it seems like It seems like the

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people that start a business are not

the same people that grow the business.

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What would be some of the things maybe

that he was thinking of along the way

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as far as managing that growth goes?

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That was like, okay, maybe this

worked when we were a startup.

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But it's not working today.

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Casey Lowery: I moved

back from Detroit in:

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We had about 65 people.

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It was sometime in between, 2009.

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That's when the Great Recession hit.

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Again, we're just trying

to kind of stay flat.

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It was about 2011.

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Because I've been saying to my dad, it'd

be great if we could go over to Detroit.

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We've got some great customers that

have locations over there that were

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having someone else service for us.

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And I think when we added that, so looking

at new geographies for us has always

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been a way to really ignite some growth.

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So we went from being very small

in, in, in Detroit to being able

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to now having multiple teams.

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And all the way up to the

Saginaw, the Clio areas where

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our closest offices up there.

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But for us, it's been

adding those locations.

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And I think as tough as it is for my dad

to let go of some of that, some of the

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control, I think he has done a pretty good

job for an entrepreneur of being able to

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let people go and do what they need to do.

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And move into more of an

organizational, stage company.

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And I would say too, you know, even

when we, started to grow, for us,

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a big part of it was the culture.

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you know that each office is going to

have a little bit of its own subculture.

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But we wanted to have that

foundation really at the core

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of everything that we do.

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And so, I think by being you

know, back in:

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culture was as popular as it, back

then, as it is to talk about now.

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But, kind of having some of that foresight

to, to make sure that we codify who we

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are so that way people know what they're

getting into when they come on board.

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Cliff Duvernois: So I spent

some time on your LinkedIn page.

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And I see casino night.

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You know a lot of employees rolling dice

and I saw knights fighting in armor.

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Is this all part of your culture?

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Casey Lowery: Yes, for, for sure.

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Um, You know, I think it's one of those

things that really, I feel like when

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people come on board, they kind of

latch on to, and they make it their own.

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We always say, at the time, uh, from

his perspective, he's kind of always

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setting the, the values and the vision.

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But really when it comes down to how

we, How that kind of gets implemented.

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It may not be 100 percent him.

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So, but the casino night was

something that he always envisioned.

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I think he's done a great

job of really trying to theme

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as many things as possible.

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Cliff Duvernois: a great fundraiser.

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Casey Lowery: Oh, it

was a great fundraiser.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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For the Children's Healing Center.

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They do a great job here in Grand Rapids.

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And they're looking to add,

additional locations as well.

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Yeah, they do a great job.

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and really trying to think, really try

to find things that are super close to

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things that we believe in here at Applied.

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And kids and families and, and

everything along those lines, those

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are super important to us here.

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Cliff Duvernois: At what point in

time did you say to yourself, you know

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what, I really do want to be a part

of the family business and I think

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I'm ready for more responsibility.

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What was that tipping point for you?

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Casey Lowery: You Even as far back as I

can remember, I think probably I was 13

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when I, this is all I ever wanted to do.

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So I don't know if there's a ton

of other people that wanted, again,

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were, we were a copier dealer at

heart transitioning into, you know,

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more technology and things like that.

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I always looked up to

my dad as a role model.

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And so that was always

what I wanted to do.

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Basically after I realized I

wasn't going to be in the NBA.

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So, um, and that was

pretty early on in life.

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I think.

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when I was selling,

back from:

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again, another mentor of mine is our Vice

President of Sales, John Konynenbelt.

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sits in the office right next to me.

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I think he kind of nudged me.

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So I had sold for two years at

Ricoh, sold for two more years

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here, two to three years here.

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We had somebody that left the business.

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And he felt like it was a good time for

me to kind of step into sales management.

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So I did that for four years.

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And I would say he definitely

nudged me and, and kind of

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pushed me out of my comfort zone.

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But at some point, kind of in my journey

throughout the different roles that I had

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here, I realized that if at some point

I was going to be the CEO or president,

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that I had to have all the experiences.

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So I kind of had to just own the fact

that I was going to be uncomfortable in

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a certain role and, and figure it out.

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Cliff Duvernois: quick break and

thank our sponsors when we come back.

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Uh, we're going to dive a little bit more

into the growth of Applied Innovation.

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And we'll see you after the break.

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Michiganders doing some

pretty extraordinary things.

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I'm your host, Cliff Duvernois.

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Today, we're talking with Casey Lowery.

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President of Applied

Innovation out of Grand Rapids.

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One of the things that I would like to

talk about is in some of the research

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that I was doing is this I guess eight

year journey, so to speak, for you to

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become president of the company, right?

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What did that look like?

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What did that entail?

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Casey Lowery: Sure yeah that's a question.

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Um, so I think, even going back to the

question you asked before the break,

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which was, you know, what are some of the

things that my dad did to help us grow?

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One of the things that, and I don't know

if it was his idea or somebody forced

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the idea upon him, but, I really feel

like he has thought about succession

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planning more than a lot of people.

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First gens typically do.

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OK

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I Went got into sales management got as

we grew I became a director of sales.

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And then the plan was

always to put me in as COO.

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Because the idea was never to transition

the business to me individually.

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It was to transition

to the leadership team.

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So it was all about building that team

and making sure that we were prepared

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for the future and given us that

experience And a lot of that started

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back, so you had mentioned eight

years, so yes, it was about eight years

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ago that I would say I first started

to attend our leadership meetings.

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And at first it was probably, three

years of me just listening and

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just trying to observe what the

leadership team was working on and

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being aware of the ins and outs.

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And then over the course of those eight

years really started to get more engaged.

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So I've been president since

October 1st and was COO for

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the three years prior to that.

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But certainly, uh, he had the

foresight to be able to really try

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to help me get exposed to a lot of

the different parts of the business.

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Cliff Duvernois: And I know that

exposure to the business and all these

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different elements thats a part of it.

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But I'm also thinking to that

there's the leadership part,

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there is the vision part, right?

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And this is almost another

skillset that is required.

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So why don't you talk to us a little

bit about thinking about just like

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taking care of we have one customer

versus now taking care of a company.

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I've got employees.

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I've got payroll I've got all these

customers that we're taking care of.

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So talk to us about

that shift in thinking.

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Casey Lowery: I would say that shift

even happened probably eight years ago.

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My dad always encouraged me.

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He said, Hey, yes, this is your role.

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But you need to also be

thinking about it from this hat.

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And put this hat on from time to time.

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I would say, you know, he's always

So it's the hat of the owner, right?

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He's always encouraged me to

Yes, that is your role right now.

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Um, but think, yeah, but think bigger.

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And I'd say even, going back for

years, he's talked about, actively

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about, Hey, every family has, on

average, two and a half people in it.

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So you're responsible for, at

the time, it was 250 people to

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put food on the plate for dinner.

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It's just something that we, I would

say, we've always talked about.

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I still felt like, as I mentioned,

as I stepped into different roles,

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maybe I wasn't prepared at the time.

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But, I, I feel like hearing it enough

times over the years, hopefully

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prepared me to, to be ready.

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And I think, some advice that I got

from a mentor of mine years ago was

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to just be the type of person that

somebody would want to work for.

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And to me that's kind of what it comes

down to is just be a good person.

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Create a great place to come to work every

day, and the rest will figure itself out.

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Part of that culture we

were talking about earlier.

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Certainly.

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Definitely.

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Cliff Duvernois: One of the things that

really surprised me when I'm doing my

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research and prepping for this particular

interview, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

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First off, billion dollar brand.

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What surprised me in reading the press

release for this, they sought you out.

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You did not go and bid on them.

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They actually came to you and

said, hey, this is a problem.

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Can you help us solve it?

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Sweet Moses, that's awesome.

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Casey Lowery: That was,

that was pretty good.

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Cliff Duvernois: Okay, so I'm

kind of fanboying right now.

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So talk to us, talk to us about that.

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What was that like to have them

just, like, call out of the blue

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one day, like, hey, can you help us?

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Casey Lowery: know, we talked about

being lucky and having good timing.

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:

So what's funny is, actually we

saw a demographer at the Econ

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Club in downtown Grand Rapids.

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And that's actually the

reason that we're in Tampa.

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So we knew that there was this

deal, we had been contacted about a

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acquisition, a potential acquisition

down in, in the Tampa area.

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We kind of were, I would say,

hemming and hawing about it.

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We saw a demographer.

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They were saying, you know,

Michigan's staying fairly

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:

flat over the next 20 years.

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demographer?

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Just that talked about demographics.

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So, so he, you're just looking

at populations and shifts in ages

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:

and, all sorts of different things.

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So, they were talking about

Florida over the next 25 years

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was supposed to double in size.

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I think it was 21 million to 42

million or something like that.

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And so we thought, hey, let's try to

see what we can do in a growth economy.

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So we had that going on in the

background and kind of tie it back

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into your Tampa Bay Bucks question.

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So we had been doing business with the

Detroit Lions for a handful of years.

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We had a contact move down there and

it was like, we love working with you,

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at the Lions, I'm now at the Bucks.

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Do you know anybody down here who could

help build a similar relationship?

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And we were just like, hold on.

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And within the next six

months we were in Tampa.

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And again, it stars aligned and,

and uh, we were able to make that

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deal, put that deal together.

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Cliff Duvernois: and one of the questions

I have to ask too even as a small business

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:

owner, when you go up and you're going

for somebody big, like I said, Tampa

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Bay Buccaneers, this is a billion dollar

brand, I sometimes have to ask this,

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:

like, wait, what made you think that

you could actually get them as a client?

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Casey Lowery: Yeah, I guess even going

back, I've always kind of thought as

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Applied as, the, it was one of kind of our

jokes forever as a little guy across town.

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So for me, it's always had

a chip on our shoulder.

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:

We're always trying to

punch above our weight.

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uh, I think even with that,

what all customers are looking

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for is partnership, right?

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And especially somebody like that.

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If we can, potentially

bring customers for them.

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And they, and, they can bring

customers to us, and for us, it's,

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:

that's what we did with the Lions.

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And I think that that's what they

hoped that we would bring to the Bucs.

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:

And it, both have been

a great partnership.

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:

I'd say the other thing that all customers

are looking for is just great service.

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They knew that they rely on us for that.

439

:

One of the things that we've talked

about for years here is to not just fix

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:

the problem, but to fix the customer.

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So it's not about, putting in a

different part that fixes the issue

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:

and quit getting out of the office.

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It's about making sure the customer

feels like the problem is solved.

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:

So that's something that

we've always focused on.

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:

And that's why I feel like

customers like Tampa would

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potentially, you know, seek us out.

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:

Cliff Duvernois: So when we talk about

technology, What is it that Applied

448

:

Innovation does for your customers?

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:

Casey Lowery: Sure.

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:

So I would say, the backbone of what we've

always done has been the hardware piece.

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So that's been copiers, printers.

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:

our joke was always, IT folks are, you

know, who pulled the short straw that has

453

:

to deal with the copiers and printers.

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So for us, that's kind of the backbone,

the bread and butter of what we do.

455

:

And what we want to do is try

to make that something that

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:

they don't have to think about.

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So if they don't have to think

about that, they can focus on other

458

:

things that are more pressing.

459

:

you know, that was the

core of our business.

460

:

And about 2001 was when we got into

the automation space, where we're

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:

taking paper based process and trying

to help people automate process.

462

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I would say, probably about, 10 years ago

is when we got into the traditional I.

463

:

T.

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:

space.

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:

So the managed I.

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:

T.

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:

space where we'll

basically manage anything.

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:

So help desk to server to, you

know, anything in the cloud.

469

:

So we can help customers basically

completely go third party with their I.

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:

T.

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:

Or if they want to do partial, we

could help them with that as well.

472

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And I would say for us too.

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:

So kind of that transition

from Applied Imaging.

474

:

We were Applied Imaging until last July.

475

:

I believe it was, when we officially

became Applied Innovation.

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And for us, it was really

that transition, right?

477

:

It was, we're not an

imaging company anymore.

478

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We've been in the IT

space for almost 10 years.

479

:

And, we're a lot more than that.

480

:

And we see ourselves as, as I

mentioned, we, we want to build a

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:

great place to come to work every day.

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:

Passionate people take really

good care of customers.

483

:

We just happen to sell copiers and

printers, and now IT, and now shredding.

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And now telephony and, and for

us, you know, I feel like, again,

485

:

if you can create an environment

where people really take care of

486

:

customers and really care, then it

really doesn't matter what we sell.

487

:

That just happens to be what we do.

488

:

So if you go back to, uh,

Simon Sinek, Start with Why.

489

:

This was around the same time when

we, uh, You know, you're a book guy,

490

:

so, same time when we saw that TED

Talk was around the time when we

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:

started to codify some of our culture.

492

:

And, for us it was a passion for

service, for people, for business.

493

:

So, again, people first, because

we feel like if we're at service

494

:

to one another, and if we're at

service to one another here in the

495

:

office, that's where it starts.

496

:

And then, from there, you can go out and

deliver great service to the customer.

497

:

Cliff Duvernois: Cause you talk about

great customer service:

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:

year closed, 98.9% Customer Rentation.

499

:

Casey Lowery: Yep.

500

:

There's some happy people

out there with you.

501

:

There's some really happy people.

502

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Um and I feel like, uh, our Customer

Loyalty Center is a good example.

503

:

If you go back probably 2012

ish, we looked at all the calls

504

:

that were coming into Applied.

505

:

They were primarily

service or supply calls.

506

:

So we cross trained those two teams

and made our Customer Loyalty Center.

507

:

And our goal was to really have every

call come in and under three rings

508

:

be able to pick it up and be able

to take care of them right there.

509

:

So again, it's all, comes down

to, how can we deliver service

510

:

even just a little bit better?

511

:

You know, one of the things my dad

kind of always talked about was maybe

512

:

we're never going to invent the iPhone,

but if we can come up with a way to

513

:

deliver service 1 percent better.

514

:

We're going back to the

Atomic Habits, right?

515

:

Can we get 1 percent better every day?

516

:

Then think about the gap that

you'll have in between you and

517

:

your competition over time.

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:

Cliff Duvernois: Now

that you're president.

519

:

What is kind of what?

520

:

It's kind of like the vision that you.

521

:

see down the road for Applied Innovation?

522

:

Casey Lowery: Another mentor of

mine always says is that a lot of

523

:

companies that, you know, that,

that are successful stop doing the

524

:

things that got them where they are.

525

:

So for me, my number one thing is

to make sure that I stay true to

526

:

the foundation that my dad's built.

527

:

It's things like employee breakfasts or

Imagepalooza where we bring everybody

528

:

together and that's something that,

that we've themed for years now and

529

:

that was the, the Knights, the medieval

party that we had with the, with the

530

:

customers or with all of our, uh, with

all of our employees over the summer.

531

:

So I think for me, it's staying

true to a lot of those roots.

532

:

But potentially expanding on that.

533

:

One thing that I'm passionate

about is, um, is trying to continue

534

:

to cross sell across all the

different functions of what we do.

535

:

What we find oftentimes is that.

536

:

Customers that find out that we are in

the IT space are like, I didn't know that.

537

:

We would have definitely gone

with you had we had the chance.

538

:

So, I think for us it's about how

do we continue to cross sell and

539

:

make sure that customers are, have

awareness of all the different things

540

:

that we do and make sure that we're

staying relevant for the next 35 years.

541

:

One

542

:

Cliff Duvernois: Casey, if somebody's

listening to this interview, and they

543

:

want to check out Applied Innovations,

maybe read up on you, because I know

544

:

you're all over the social, you're all

over the place, where can people find you?

545

:

Casey Lowery: I would say the best

place is probably AppliedInnovation.

546

:

com.

547

:

Certainly, you can check us

out on, on any social platform.

548

:

LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram.

549

:

But, probably our website would

be the best place to contact us.

550

:

Cliff Duvernois: Casey, thank you so much

for taking time to chat with us today.

551

:

I really do appreciate it.

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:

Casey Lowery: Cliff.

553

:

I appreciate it.

554

:

Cliff Duvernois: And for our audience, you

can always roll on over to TotalMichigan.

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:

com.

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:

Click on Casey's interview and get

the links that he mentioned above.

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:

We'll see you next week when we

talk to another Michigander doing

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:

some pretty extraordinary things.

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:

We'll see you then.

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