What does endurance look like when perfection is no longer the goal?

In this deeply personal episode, host Corrine Malcolm sits down with professional runner and mountain athlete Olivia Amber for a conversation about movement, identity, health, and choosing paths that don’t always make sense on paper but that feel right in the body.

Olivia grew up in a small Nordic ski community in northern Wisconsin, racing at a high level before stepping away from elite skiing after college. What followed was a series of pivots: a career outside sport, a rediscovery of running as a form of exploration, and eventually a return to the mountains — this time on her own terms.

At the center of this episode is Olivia’s recent completion of Norman’s 13, a roughly 105-mile, 40,000-foot link-up of California’s Sierra Nevada 14ers. Olivia became the first woman to establish a known time on the route, claiming the FKT in the process, but this achievement can’t be separated from the years that came before it: shaped by chronic pain, a stage IV endometriosis diagnosis, major surgery, and learning to listen to a body that no longer responded to “push through it.”

This is a conversation about redefining success, navigating health within high-performance sport, and allowing dreams to evolve when the old version no longer fits.

In this episode, we talk about:

1. Growing up in a Nordic ski community and how family shapes athletic identity
2. Walking away from elite skiing — and why it wasn’t a failure
3. Finding running as freedom, not replacement
4. Living and training with stage IV endometriosis
5. Fertility decisions, surgery, and long-term health realities
6. What makes Norman’s 13 such a unique mountain challenge
7. Choosing a harder line because it felt safer — and truer
8. The role of community in big, lonely objectives
9. Letting go of outcomes and committing to the process

This episode is brought to you by rabbit. If you're looking to treat yourself after the holidays or upgrade your winter running kit, head to www.runinrabbit.com and use code TRAILSOCIETYJAN in January for 10% off.

Follow Us:

Join Feisty at the Grand Traverse in Duluth, MN on October 3rd! Use code FEISTY20 for $20 off when you register at https://feisty.co/events/the-grand-traverse/

@feisty_media

@trail.society

Foreign.

Hey hi.

Hello.

Welcome back to Trail Society, produced by our friends over at Feisty Media.

I'm your host Corinne Malcolm and today's episode is brought to you by our favorites over at Rabbit Some Housekeeping to get things kicked off.

As you heard last week, you'll get to still hear from your favorite co hosts with Keely and Hillary joining me for an episode every single month.

It's just like the trail Society you know and love, but we've moved to a weekly podcast format that means more interviews, more running science and more behind the scenes looks into what we've got going on in the trail and alternate community.

As always, slide into our DMs with questions, guest suggestions or anything you'd like to hear on the show.

We'd love to pull those in for future episodes and something that you might have caught at the top of the show.

I mentioned Feisty Media as our producing partner.

We are officially their sixth podcast.

So if you like what we do, there's a ton more incredible content for you over on their website Feisty Co.

There you can subscribe to their newsletters and I would highly suggest you go give them a follow over on Instagram heistymedia.

The podcast I might be the most excited about right now is that Feisty just relaunched their Women's Performance Podcast.

It's hosted this season by the incredible Dr. Ayala.

Again, a lot of superlatives, but it's very, very good.

We're actually going to have her on the podcast as a guest in February.

Their first episode dropped January 12th and it's got Trail Society podcast favorite Dr. Emily Kraus as the featured guest and they tackle the topic of gender gaps in sports performance research.

It's a great deep dive on the topic.

We're very excited to create more great Trail Society and Rabbit apparel for you, running scholarship opportunities and popping up at more events near you, including the newly launched Clubhouse series.

Keep your eyes peeled for more information on that.

For now, you can scoot on over to the runninrabbit.com website and check out their latest and greatest gear where you can use the code TrailsocietyJan for the month of January to receive 10% off again, that's Trail Society Jan to get 10% off.

It's been really chilly here in Seattle, so you'll catch me running to and from the gym and then lounging for the rest of the day in the Easy Joggers.

They're incredibly comfortable.

I've been pairing that with the fan favorite Outrun Mock Neck, which is a wool blend, and it's both warm while remaining incredibly lightweight.

Joining me on the podcast today is someone that we've been wanting to have on the podcast for over a year now.

That is Olivia Amber.

Olivia is a professional runner for the North Face who most recently set the women's FKT on Normans 13 in the high Sierra.

I'm biased.

I have known Olivia since she was.

Probably 8 years old.

She's a former roommate and dear friend of mine.

But I'm really excited today to bring you into her world, a world that has veered off trail.

Olivia makes her home in Bishop, California, and outside of professional sport, works for the Mammoth Lakes Tourism Board at Visit Mammoth.

I had such a great time catching up with Olivia, and I hope that you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Let's dive into that chat now.

Olivia, Amber, welcome to the pod.

How are you?

Better now that I'm seeing you.

Yay.

It makes me so happy to have you on the pod.

It's been a long time in the making and I am glad you are here.

I'm asking everyone this year the same kickoff question, and that is, what is something you wish people knew about you?

I'm going to go first.

I'm the oldest sibling of three, and I worry that if I had been the youngest, I would have become unbearably competitive and potentially a horrible person.

How about you?

Ooh, I love this question.

I mean, I feel like a lot of people know this about me, but not everyone.

But I really just wanted to be my sister, Nicolette.

Basically my whole life goal is still not achieved.

I don't have a law school degree.

I am still not her.

But yeah, still definitely.

Striving to be Nicolette.

Yeah, no, being the younger sibling, I think it's very normal to want to be your older sibling, to follow in those footsteps.

So that is not that surprising.

Also, yeah, clearly similar vein to yours.

So, yeah, it's like siblings, they are siblings shape us into who we are.

I'm going to talk about that a little bit.

Having on the pod was long overdue.

I think we've been talking about it for over a year now.

Like pre Normans, which we're gonna talk about today, but I feel like you're also not on enough podcasts.

Like, I was like, scouring the Internet being Olivia Amber Normand, Olivia Amber podcast nothing.

It's like you disappeared for years, which is there's a reason for all that too.

And we'll talk about it.

But I do think that our audience might not know who you are.

And so I want them to have a little background and as we set this up and spoiler alert, I've known you since you were like 8 years old.

So on that note, I would love for you to tell us a little bit about the community you grew up in and the family you grew up in and how that has led to you becoming the professional runner you are now.

Well, I grew up in a very small town in northern Wisconsin called Lake Nebagamin, the village of Lake Nebagamin, which is actually very close to you, Corinne.

And so I grew up in a very cross country, ski driven culture, was very close to the Berkey Trail.

So I spent a lot of my time cross country skiing and got super into that sport.

Sport and just, you know, with the long winters, spent a ton of time outside training for that and just also got to got to know that community really well.

And that was a huge part of what drove me for my early years is just trying to become the best cross country ski racer I could be and largely was influenced by you, grandma and my older sister Nicolette, two really big inspirations to me growing up.

I would just try to keep up with you guys and it was like the hardest thing ever.

And I still think to this day is the hardest thing ever.

So.

There'S the motivation right there.

Still trying to keep up with you.

We spent a lot of time, I have been carting Olivia and her older sister Nicolette around since they were.

Yeah, probably pre middle school effectively, or my mom would like drop me off to go ski with you guys type of thing.

And then your mom would pick us up and like feed us tasty soup and whatnot.

Um, very wholesome, very Midwest.

And I guess I'm also thinking about just like your family is athletic.

Like we were talking about how like your marathon PR is probably like in utero as your mom was a runner.

Like.

Yep.

I just think it's like, tell us a little bit about your parents too, because your parents are incredible humans and I think have been.

I mean, are.

Are still a huge part of your life as well.

Yes.

So my.

My dad was a collegiate wrestler.

My mom was a collegiate runner.

There was a time, I think, like, way back, because she was actually right as they were shifting, like, to title nine, she couldn't actually race in high school until her sophomore year on a women's team or something like that.

Hopefully I'm getting that right.

But basically, she was early in, like, the women's sports scene, and she was, like, holding some records at the time for, like, her.

I think it was, like, regional, like, mile stuff like that.

And so she.

Yeah, running's kind of in my blood in that capacity.

And so growing up, she just continued to run every morning, basically, and I would beg her to go.

And of course, that was also, like, her time.

So she would let me to a certain extent, but then be like, okay, let me actually go run now.

But, yeah, you know, growing up in such a small town family and just all being together was a.

Just a really big thing.

And so we did a lot as a family.

And so what my parents did, I wanted to do because I wanted to spend time with people.

And they, you know, they were always down to go adventure and take us outside, and we spent the summer.

Since they were both school teachers, we had the summers together, and so they would take us to the mountains and go climb and hike and backpack and run.

And so I just.

I grew to be really passionate about just being outside.

And I also had so much exposure to mountains at a young age.

Even though I don't grow up, I did not grow up in the mountains.

I just really always wanted to be there.

And so every time we would leave, I'd get really sad, like, why don't we just live here?

Why do we have to go back to a flatter place?

But, yeah, I mean, their motivation around just, like, being active and being outdoors, and my mom, specifically with the running, just, like, grew a really big passion for myself.

And my parents, being who they are, just never really pushed it.

They just wanted me and my sister to enjoy it.

And so I never felt like I had to either.

I just kind of could play around.

And so I think that play aspect is what really kind of still drives me today.

And I feel like I can thank my parents a lot for instilling that.

Yeah, your parents are super cool, and they're still getting out there and getting after it, and it's incredibly inspiring.

We grew up in a group of.

Of Nordic skiers that, you know, we were Part of the Junior National, Junior Olympic pipeline.

I found a photo on my computer from Anchorage, Jos, of, like, Jesse Diggins and I with these, like, Alaskan yo yos.

It's a whole.

It's a whole vibe.

We grew up with some pretty impressive skiers, and we raced at a very high level.

I went out to Montana State to ski.

Your sister went off to Middlebury.

You then also make it to the east coast to Colby to go ski.

So tell us a little bit about, you know, leaving home and going out east and skiing being a big part of your collegiate experience.

Yeah.

So me, this is actually a great segue into how we kicked this off.

I wanted to be my sister.

She went to the east coast, so I did too.

Like, legitimately.

That was a lot of the motivation for me at the time.

But in addition to that, when I was looking at all the schools, one thing that I really, really, really wanted to find for a four year home was a coach that I felt like really understood me as an athlete and what drove me.

And I found that in Tracy Cody, who is the college ski coach, the head ski coach for Colby Nordic.

Um, she is incredible.

Um, and yeah, I am so grateful for her, but she was like, she honestly was one of the huge reasons I decided to go to Colby.

Over the other schools I looked at, I just, I really liked her whole philosophy.

I felt like she really understood me as an athlete.

And also I just really liked the team dynamic.

There is, like, a pretty big range, especially for, like, D1 NCAA skiing on the East Coast.

They.

She really cultivated a cool development pipeline through her resources in a way that I felt like as a person, I don't really feel like a very exclusive person.

I like to just get out and be with people.

And so instead of it feeling like this, like, there's only going to be a couple of people and we have to be the best.

It was like, you can be whatever you want to be.

As a cross country ski racer at Colby and all support, that was her sort of stance.

And that resonated with me so much.

And because of that, I. Yeah, I just felt like there was no pressure to, like, have to be the best.

Instead, it could be about what I felt like really resonated with me, which was just loving the sport and loving my team and the people around it.

I think that's super interesting because you would assume that most people, they go to this, like, pressure cooker environment, right?

They're going to like u of you, or they're going to see you and they are, like, they're going to Dartmouth, like, the big.

The Big Three.

They're going to Northern Michigan, and they are, like, going to be the dozen eggs that gets thrown against the wall, and they're not going to break, and they're going to become the next best thing.

They're going to go to the World cup, blah, blah, blah.

They're going to ski post collegiately.

They.

They burn out.

They no longer ski ever again.

You don't.

That doesn't happen to you.

You go to this program that is, like, wholesome, wholesome and holistic, and you get to excel in your own way.

And you do.

Like, you're NCAA All American.

You skied really, really well, and you have the opportunity to ski post collegiately.

And for those who are unaware, in the US you don't.

And really, in Europe, you don't make a ton of money as a professional skier.

But there are these, like, post collegiate programs that kind of allow you to put off real life a little bit and have support in order to pursue World cup teams, World Championship teams, Olympic teams.

You don't do that.

You, like, move to San Francisco and start working your butt off and, like, pay off your student loans, and you, like, skiing's in the rear view, like, you effectively retire.

And I just think that's crazy and interesting because our peers, our contemporaries, are, like, gearing up for Cortina.

People we raced against, people we beat, people we.

Who are our teammates, people who we grew up with.

Like, they're all getting ready to go to their first Games, their second games, their fourth games, whatever.

We're not.

And they were both very happy.

We're both very happy about that.

But, like, just reflect on that a little bit.

Like, you don't pursue.

You could have.

You could have, like, you had offers to pursue skiing post collegiately, and you're like, yeah, no, I think I'm gonna go live in the Bay Area and, like, not get a check.

Get a big, big girl job in tech and, like, become a boss, basically.

Yeah, it was a really.

I have to say, at the time, it felt like an impossible decision, but I really leaned into.

And I have no idea who gave me this advice or where it came from, but it definitely didn't come from me.

This obviously exists in other spaces, but the philosophy of just whatever decision you make, you have the power to make it the right decision.

That was my philosophy.

And so I was really struggling with.

There was a part of me that just wasn't sure if I wanted to go all in with skiing.

I felt a lot of stress around it, just with the financial component and, you know, the.

At the time, it felt like if I wasn't willing to just fully commit to the ultimate goal for that sport, which is the Olympics, you know, what, why?

Why, why?

What is my why?

And I didn't really have a good answer for myself.

And so I looked into other opportunities of what I could do with my life, because I had really focused for most of my life up to that point to be the best cross country skier I could be, as well as good of a student as I could be.

But I didn't really have much exposure into a lot of other things.

That's why I also studied geology.

I was like, I spend a lot of time with the earth and outside, so I'm going to study that.

And somehow, you know, through friends and connections and network I made at Colby, I had some exposure to more of, like, that business world, which was really intriguing, and I kind of just went with that.

And I was curious about what kind of person I could become, what kind of things I could learn if I were to take a different path outside of skiing.

Because it was feeling.

I don't know, my gut at the time was just telling me there was just something not quite right, even though it's the thing I loved the most in the entire world, outside of my family and friends, of course.

But, like, that was the thing that really drove me for.

For my whole life up to that point.

And so I. Yeah, I tried to just figure out what parts of myself I was curious about exploring.

And one of those things was working in a more corporate setting.

That was not something I have any exposure to at the.

So I was curious about it, and I started pursuing that and ended up moving to San Francisco and kind of taking the opposite path in some ways.

You know, there's no snow in San Francisco.

And so I was pretty.

I was pretty freaked out.

I was like, dang, I'm going from this being my entire life to it being something that maybe I'll get to do a couple times a year at best.

And honestly, like, those first couple of years, I basically didn't do it because I was so busy with work and just trying to figure out my place in such a new place.

I experienced a lot of growth in that time, which was really cool.

Like, what other things can I do with my time if I'm not skiing?

And that's when I started running a lot.

You sure did.

And I remember seeing you from afar training for stuff, and I was like, has anyone told her she doesn't have to run a 50k in training to, like, run a 50k in a race?

Enter us.

Us.

Our lives recolliding and becoming roommates.

There's a lot of spoiler alerts in this podcast, but I. I just.

Yeah, I just think it was, like, interesting and brave and a really cool pivot.

And you did.

You grew a lot and you flexed a bunch of new skills and found, I don't know, like, you know, found.

Found a new home and a new way of being.

But obviously being outside was still a thing.

And you were probably an unusual Uber employee in which, you know, you would go for a trail run and then catch an Uber to work, and then you just put on pants over, you know, your dirty running legs.

Probably poison oak riddled.

Poison oak, baby.

Man, that was bad.

So bad.

I'm so glad both of us are further away from poison oak now, but the bane of our existence.

I did see someone roller skiing this morning, by the way.

What?

Yeah, around green.

Are they okay?

I yelled, hiya, hiya.

And he ignored me.

So he's not.

He's not a G, you know?

Yeah, not a G. Not a G.

I'm curious, though, that, like, running becomes this thing.

Obviously, that's your.

In your.

In your intro that you did not hear because I have not recorded it yet.

You know, you are a professional runner for the North Face, so you did, you know, flex your endurance capabilities and talents into professional running.

I'm.

I'm curious a little bit just about finding that within yourself, like a totally different career pivot in that regard before even bigger career pivot.

Obviously, you don't live in San Francisco anymore.

You now live in Bishop.

What were those, like, initial, kind of like discovering running vibes?

Obviously, I saw you pre and post, first ever 50 mile, so I. I have insider trading knowledge as to how good and bad it can be.

But for you, you know, how was that being a thing?

Because it is.

It's being an app that's been your identity basically your entire life or a huge part of your identity.

And in a way, you retired from skiing, but running, being an athlete is still a core tenet of your identity.

Yeah, honestly, I think the.

Yeah, the endurance component, like, why.

Basically, to answer why I want to run as f long as I do, is that kind of the question.

Yeah, like.

Like, how has this identity evolved?

Right, like, yeah, no longer skier, now runner, but still there's this running, there's this athletic identity that's very, very important to your life.

And your, your happiness and your well being.

Yeah, I feel like because the.

Something that grounded me the most as a kid was just being outside and just being in nature and exploring on my own.

That is kind of where I feel the most grounded and the most myself and the most at peace.

And I think the way I go about that can change, and the sport obviously has.

But I think running specifically has always been that backbone of movement for me.

Just like it's so accessible and it can happen despite the elements for the most part, and despite being in like a city in an urban environment or a rural environment, you can kind of do it wherever.

And I think because I just love being outside and moving so much, running is just like the, the sort of happiest and best and most true to me way to, to go about that because I just want to get out and I just want to explore.

And it's.

There's such a.

There's such a quick access and easy activation with, with the sport that obviously, you know, cross country skiing doesn't necessarily have.

You have to figure out which skis and what wax and find your poles and find your boots and make sure the ice is out of your boots.

If you still have SNS bindings and.

You have the whole thing, they're done.

No, those are done.

Thank God.

Yeah.

Except for me, I still have sns.

So Stephen does too.

It's hilarious.

Like, I was like, they don't make binding.

Like, even Salomon stopped using sns.

Like, no one uses this binding system anymore.

Yeah, that tells you just how, just how bad it was.

The fact that the Salomon Nordic system is no longer used by Salomon.

Yeah.

I also just realized how much like, boots cost for like the first time in my entire life because I've never bought a pair of ski boots before.

And we were in our friend's shop in the Methow and I was like picking up boots and touching things and I was like, oh, this carbon cuffed skate boot is $600.

Insane.

But yeah, that's the other component with running too.

Especially as like a college graduate who decided not to ski and had to pay for my own gear and also pay off student loans and just like figure out life.

Running was an amazing mode.

But yeah, I think it doesn't feel as much like a transition to me as it probably appears on the outside, because for me, it really just is about the movement and being outside side.

And running has always just been something I've loved and just gravitated towards.

But you know, as you know, Nordic skiing and northern Wisconsin is like, yeah, there's so much snow and it's so cold.

You might as well just do that in the winter.

It was a natural part.

Yeah, exactly.

It was a natural part of our existence.

And so in the same way, running is a no brainer.

Although I do remember this before we had reconnected in the Bay Area, I think you and Steven ran into each other at the climbing gym and he was like, we should hang out with Olivia.

And we're like, okay.

And then we moved into your backyard.

It was a whole thing.

But before that, you.

I'm just like, picturing you as this, like, new college grad in the Bay Area.

And I swear we'll like, move on to, like, bigger and better topics.

But there's like this story of you, like, going for a run in the accessibility.

Right.

Going for a run in the Marin headlands and like, getting lost and like, not having a headlamp and like, drinking water out of a horse trough and then like, getting a whole, like getting a horrible parasitic infection because she drank out of a horse trough.

It was a whole thing.

Like, you had to learn some lessons in your professional running career.

So, yes, I.

When I first moved to San Francisco, I moved to the duffel bag.

I had.

I didn't bring skis, I didn't bring a bike.

Like, I just brought a duffel bag.

And I was living in a living room and I was like, I have no idea how to live in a city.

I have no idea how to do this corporate thing, but I do know how to live very simply and minimally.

And I also know how to get outside.

And so I to ground myself and find peace in all the chaos.

I just focused on that.

And one thing that I had this.

I had this like, big adventure idea, like, soon, fairly soon after I moved there that I needed to go to Tammy.

But I was like, okay, I don't have really a way of getting there.

I'm not going to.

She did not.

You didn't have a car?

Just FYI, my duffel bag.

No car.

No.

Yeah, I had no car.

I just had.

I literally just had a duffel bag.

And.

Yeah.

And the living room I was renting.

But yeah, I was like, I have to get over to Mount Tam because I'd been on Mount Tam before and I was like, that place is like, where I must be if I'm going to be in a city.

Like, I need this outlet.

I need to just, like, find peace within all of this, like, urban setting.

And that's one way to do it.

But it didn't seem like it'd be that far.

And I didn't really have.

I didn't.

I didn't use like, Strava or anything at the time.

And I, you know, it was like chord headphones and like, the whole thing still.

And so I grabbed her, like, plastic water bottle and my phone and headphones and just started running.

And I had never been in the headlands before, but I had been on Mount Tam.

And so I had, like, a rough idea and I have a pretty good sense of direction, so I was like, we're just gonna go with this.

Also, it's a city.

Like, how hard can it be?

Like, it's gonna be fun.

There's gonna be, like, so many.

Totally.

So I also had, like, my credit card in, like, a pocket just in case I needed to, like, actually, like, pay for a last minute emergency, like, thing.

So anyway, and I had some snacks as well.

But yeah, I made it to Tam.

Was super psyched.

The problem was it was dusk when I made it to the top, and I was like, oh, no, this is really bad.

Maybe I should have started earlier.

But it's fine.

I have my, like, phone, flashlight, but my phone's, you know, definitely not doing great with battery.

So, yeah, I started, like, making my way back.

It got dark, phone died.

So therefore no light.

And I was out of water and food for a while and I just kept going and I had no idea where I was.

Now I'm pretty sure, like, the most lost I was was when I was, like, kind of around.

I think it's the Redwood Trail zone.

Yeah.

Yeah, kind of that zone.

And then, yeah, made it through Tennessee Valley, which at the time was still a dirt lot, but still it was a parking lot.

It looked like a trailhead.

And I was like, there is going to be water here.

I was horribly desperate.

There should be water there.

There should be water there.

The.

The horses have priority.

It's a whole situation.

Yeah, it was okay.

So, yeah, I still, to this day, I've never been as dehydrated as I was at that point.

I definitely hadn't figured out, like, the office how to drink and fuel right in the office yet.

So I definitely was just, like, not drinking water and only drinking coffee and just like, being that person.

So, yeah, I was super dehydrated, like, hallucinating and like, feeling like I was gonna pass out and was, like, very concerned.

Yeah, it was not great.

So out of, like, true desperation, I drank out of the Horse trough in Tennessee Valley, which I did not know Tennessee Valley at the time.

I did look for water for a very long time.

And it.

It was kind of one of those things where I'm like, wondering if I maybe.

I probably would have been fine, but because the trailhead was there and I got it in my head, I had optimism.

I was like, there's probably going to be water here.

And then when there wasn't, I was like, I just need it now because I told myself I was going to get it.

So there's definitely lessons there that I feel like I actually have taken with.

I feel like this is.

People are going to be like, wow, like, this girl ran Norman's 13.

This is crazy.

But, you know, a lot can happen in five or six years.

Yeah.

And I mean, to be fair, I've mapped it out since.

And it was like a 60 mile run that I did, like, roughly.

And I had literally no clue what it would be like or how to, like, pace or fuel for something like that.

I just wanted to go explore.

So my intent wasn't like, I need to go for a 60 mile run.

My intent was like, I want to get to the top of Tam and back because I just want to be outside all day.

And then you gotta obviously figure out everything else in order to do that sustainably and have a good time and it not be like that.

But, yeah, so I ended up getting E. Coli.

Didn't die.

Didn't die.

So dumb.

I still cannot believe I did this.

I cannot believe I'm talking about this right now.

But, yeah, that's what happened.

I am fine.

It honestly like, wrecked me for like two years.

I had, like, really weird gut issues, but that, you know, honestly, probably not that weird because it's probably exactly what you'd expect if you do something like that.

And, yeah, learn my lesson.

Don't drink out of force drops.

I love it so much.

And I just think that it's like, so symbolic of, like, an entry point into sport and also just being like, well, why can't I do this?

And it coming full circle to still going on big, sometimes dumb adventures and being outside not just all day, but sometimes four days.

So that I think is.

I don't know, it's grounding.

It's grounding to know that we've all made some questionable decisions in our lives.

This is going to sound like a harsh pivot, maybe to people, but I think it's important.

Like, we keep hinting at this Normans thing.

We keep hinting at Normans this big project that you did.

I really want to talk about it because I don't feel like people have talked about it enough.

Tbd, though you did get a sick shout out in Killian's year reflection.

Like, not in the main, not in the main body of the piece, but then he put a comment in where he was like, also so and so, so and so.

And Olivia and I was like, yes, yes.

But part of this journey is like this undercurrent of the health journey, a health journey that you're still very much on and will be on for the rest of your life.

And that is, you know, it's impacted greatly the last four to five years of your life in a, in a big way.

It's always, it's always been there, but it progressed immensely in the last four or five years.

And this goes to you being diagnosed with stage four endometriosis and subsequently having a major surgery to like almost two years ago now.

Right.

Are we at the two.

Yeah.

So it'd be two years as a.

Almost two years.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

And so can you just walk?

We've talked about endometriosis on the podcast a little bit previously when we've had an OB GYN on.

But I'm just curious, like, walk us through trying to figure out this like, weird all consuming health thing because people don't realize, I think they think of endometriosis as like a woman's pain condition and not like a.

The chassis of my body, which is how we run, is completely messed up.

And so just like, I don't know, there's no easy way to be like, tell us about your horrific endometriosis journey.

But I do think it's a very interesting story and I think that you have learned so much through the process, though I'm sure you're sick of learning.

You've learned a lot about, about what we do know about endo, what we don't know about endo.

And like, as an athlete, as a high level athlete, how you're impacted by this diagnosis.

Yeah.

So.

Where to.

Honestly, where to begin?

When I was 11, when I got my first period and it didn't stop, it just kept going.

And I was in a lot of pain.

Like, tried to put in tampons, couldn't.

Was like, what's wrong with me?

Like, all the other girls do this and I just couldn't.

And, and so my, my parents brought me in to see an OB gyn.

They basically were just like, oh, it sucks.

Like bad periods now, like, maybe you'll grow out of it.

So that was kind of the beginning of it all.

And yeah, after the first, I think it was two years of having truly periods that would not stop and getting just like super iron deficient, you know, exactly what you'd expect.

I finally got a surgery to remove some precancerous cysts from the region and I got just like, you know, a bladder infection, uti, the whole thing from there.

And so you can say there have.

I've been plagued with some issues from the beginning that are likely the beginning of all of this.

And so I think, you know, my situation ended up becoming quite severe with the state of my organs and just the severity of the disease across my body.

But it's not something that necessarily happens just like overnight in that regard.

Just like the scale of disease, it does take some time to.

To propagate, but it also can happen quick too.

So it really depends on the person.

And this is just my experience and what I've experienced with this disease in particular is everyone experiences some things differently and just kind of hearing that, you know, however you feel and whatever your experience is is just valid because it's yours is kind of the only key here.

There is no, like, oh, well, because you experienced this, like, it's probably not that bad, or because it started earlier than, like, it's going to be worse than someone else.

No, all of that is incorrect.

Whatever you're dealing with is just what you're dealing with.

And like, that is valid.

But yeah, anyway, that's kind of how it began for me.

And I, I think as a response to the original sort of doctor situation was just like, oh, it's fine, you know, I just got a deal and it just kept getting worse and worse.

And I just kept using the band aid approach of birth control.

But at the time I was just using it as like, really hormonal medication, which I started right after that original surgery.

And so I just was on birth control from then on.

And after every couple of years it would just basically stop working.

So I'd get on a new one and then I tried something else and I felt like I kind of normalized it and was like, okay, well, they say that, you know, it's fine, so it must be fine.

But I, over the past five years was definitely not fine and I was in a lot of pain and I was on a trip down in South America and was not going to come back for quite some time, but had to come back early from that because I was in so Much pain.

I was like, there was actually is something very wrong with me.

Like, I am gaslighting myself and I know it and I need to go see Dr.

Immediately.

And so I did.

And I think fortunately and I.

This is like definitely a blanket statement.

It is not necessarily fair.

But I think living in San Francisco and having access to just like really big medical institutions and that sort of more research based and like, in that more urban setting, just more resources, actually allowed me to get a pretty quick diagnosis from there and just having connections within the medical field.

But, you know, my experience with rural medicine up to that point, there wasn't a lot of support or help.

And so I definitely am grateful that I was in a position to have that access.

But it also puts into perspective how messed up it is that not everyone gets that.

But I also, I think it's like you're like, I had a quick diagnosis, but at the same time, like, it was a 15 year process.

And so it's like, it's this idea that like we're told as women that like, oh, sometimes your periods are just really bad and sometimes people are just in a lot of pain and it's normal to be in pain when you get your period.

And yes, yes, that like perpetuates this thing.

And then you're also like a frog being boiled slowly in water where it's like, I remember seeing you pre South America trip and then I remember seeing you when you came back from South America and being like, I knew that you had some discomfort.

I knew you had some symptoms.

We weren't really sure what was going on.

We were kind of just being like, I guess it's fine, like it gets worse when I get my period and then it gets better.

And we kind of brushed it off at that.

But I remember seeing you post South America trip and being like, holy cow.

Like, Olivia is in so much pain.

Like, it was so evident how bad it was.

And so I just think it's interesting that like, you're like, yes, I got a quick diagnosis, but only once.

You were like, so symptomatic that.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think also as an athlete, my whole life I was told that, you know, you have a high pain tolerance.

Like, if you're able to do what you do, then things must be fine.

But again, that's not necessarily the case.

I have learned.

And our brains are very powerful and we can push ourselves to do a lot.

And I think a lot of other humans going through real suffering show that all the time with their resilience.

So, yeah, I think if you're feeling.

Yeah, anyway, I was feeling pain.

I didn't understand that I didn't need to be in that much pain.

And that inhibited until I was so inhibited by what I want to do, which was just move outside, that I was like, this is not okay.

And then finally advocated for myself and I was like, I'm going to actually go in there and be like, I need answers now.

And I think the learnings, yeah, they're, they were.

If you feel something, advocate for yourself, but also like find the right doctors and institution who are actually going to listen and if they continue not to like try somewhere else if you can.

But that is also just like a privilege to try that.

And it's hard.

And yeah, anyway, yeah, it, you're right.

It was definitely not like a quick diagnosis.

But once I like really pushed for it and was able to find someone who listened, then it all happened pretty quick.

And so it, yeah, it ended up being, yeah, it's a pretty systemic disease for me.

And I at the time was really struggling with the approach to take because there is no like standard approach to this.

There's only what you think is best for you.

And in my experience, doctors definitely focus a lot for me on especially you know, in my 20s as a woman, they were like, let's focus on preserving fertility.

And I was like, okay, what about also quality of life?

Totally.

But you're right, like the same at like a 25, 26 year old.

They're like, well, like, we want to give you this option down the road to have biological children.

And like, maybe for some people that would work and they would be able to preserve fertility and for others, and it's like you have this like interesting history of having some weird ovarian stuff since you were like, you know, probably like 8, 9, 10, 11.

And so it's like, who knows, right, that the cards that you were working with are also like, so again, everyone's experience is so individual, but they did, they leaned, they leaned in hard to that.

And I, I get that, I see why they did it.

But you're right, like I saw you during that process too of like trying to go through fertility treatments in order to preserve the opportunity to have biological children.

And you were in even more pain.

Like I, I remember you in fetal position on a grocery store floor because you had like bumped the shopping basket against your abdomen.

Like you were in immense pain.

Because endometriosis is like this disease that grows tissue.

Fertility meds love to grow tissue.

And so you did.

You had to go through this.

Like, it had to get so much worse for you before there was a glimmer of it getting better.

And I can't imagine how dark that period of time was.

Yeah, it was really hard, and I felt very confused, and I didn't really know what I wanted, aside from just, like, wanting to feel better and just be able to, like, live my life.

And it.

It.

It made me feel at the time like I couldn't do that, and I didn't know when I would be able to again, and that was really hard.

But I just kept reminding myself that, like, this.

This phase is temporary and I will get through it.

But, yeah, it was.

It was an extremely hard time.

And, yeah, I just, you know, I also, as someone who, like, likes to be a high achiever, I kept seeing these results come back to as, like, failures.

Like the blood panels and the fertility tests and the.

I went through two cycles of ivf and it got, you know, there was.

They were not successful.

And so I was like, I am.

I am a failure is what that was kind of telling me.

And obviously that is not true, but at the time, that's what it felt like, because I was seeing those tests as, you know, like, I would a test in school.

Like, it's a pass or fail, a time failing.

No, but athletes, we've trained ourselves, right?

Like, I was just talking to a friend about this.

Like, I've got friends and athletes who have had recurrent miscarriages.

I myself am, like, cool, like, probably starting ivf, you know, in the next, like, six months.

Because, like, we're having.

We have, like, undi.

Like, undiagnosed infertility issues.

And it is crazy because we have trained ourselves our entire freaking lives that if we work hard enough and we put our minds to it, we can do anything.

And then you're like, I would like to produce an egg, or, I would like to get pregnant.

And your body's like, nope, so sorry, not for you.

And it's like you're, quote, unquote, doing everything right, but you're right.

Like, it does in the moment, in particular, feel like you're like, oh, cool, I got an F on this test.

Like, how the heck did that happen?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which was, you know, with all of the hormonal swings from all of the medications and all of the treatments, it was just a lot at once and a lot of pain.

And all of that led into bigger surgery where I. Yeah, it was interesting.

It was almost like this weird, like, a la Carte setup, which was like, what organs do you want to keep?

What organs do you want to get rid of?

Which ones are we taking out?

Yeah.

And I was like, this is crazy.

Kind of cool, like, in a way, but also like, I have no idea.

And so for me, I just was like, what makes the most sense for me right now?

Because I don't.

I don't know what the future holds with how my body will respond to any of this.

But what feels right for me right now is just keeping my options open, which feels like keeping more than what might make sense.

And so that's kind of what I chose to do.

And so part of that was keeping ovaries that I have since felt like now I'm ready to get rid of, but not to be cavalier guy, take them all.

But this is my life now, so.

Well, yeah, you know, just get really up.

But yeah, I. Yeah, it was all.

It was confusing and hard and I was in such a challenging position that also making these really big decisions about like, the future of my fertility and my life were like, literally I would, you know, get knocked out for the surgery and wake up with that decision.

And that was crazy.

But yeah, so that was a tough time.

And you know, after the surgery, you have to wait for all like the tissue biopsies and go through all of that and do like other tests, which is just a whole nother, sort of stressful period that you don't really think about, because at least I didn't because I was so focused on just like getting the surgery done and getting it out and just moving forward, that that part was definitely not one that I anticipated.

But it's also difficult to go through.

And for me, there was definitely some additional complications that made it a lot more long winded and a lot more stressful and is definitely interesting.

But I do feel like now two years out, having the knowledge to just kind of have a sense of what I need to be looking for and if I feel a certain way, why has been the biggest benefit to all of it.

I now understand, like, why my body feels the way it does and what's going on and how to respond to it to actually take care of myself instead of being like, why am I in pain?

Oh, it's fine.

Like, pain is like necessary.

Like, oh, I'm in pain.

I'm not running today because I know it's only going to make it worse and I can do a different activity that's going to be actually more productive because I'm not going to keep pushing on my pelvic floor and creating more inflammation, because that's what works for me.

And, like, that's something different for everyone, but that is the outcome for it for me at this stage.

But in the midst of all of it, it was.

It was very dark.

It was.

And I call it your cancer moment.

That's kind of how I described it to people and to.

To, like, that's how I've made sense of it, where it was, like, it was really dark.

Your life was put on pause for a long time, and you've made some big changes to, like, put yourself in the best place possible.

You have moved out of San Francisco.

You're living in Bishop.

You're back in the mountains.

You're doing things that make you really, really happy.

And while endometriosis will still be a part of your athletic journey moving forward, be it more surgeries or different treatments, et cetera, you have also.

There's, like, this interesting juxtaposition now leading into Normans, in which you have been dreaming about Norman's 13 for years.

Since we, like, reconnected in the Bay Area.

You were like, I want to go do this thing.

And I'm like, I don't know what this is, but tell me more.

And at the same time, coming out of this surgery, you have recognized as well that, like, you can move all day long, you can move for multiple days on end, but you, like.

But moving at certain speeds feel better than other speeds at times.

And, like, recovering from the surgery also meant that, like, you can hike like a boss.

You can, you know, be on your feet the whole whole time.

But, like, yeah, bombing a downhill might not feel great.

So you've got this, like, interesting, like, project that you've been scheming and dreaming of for years, and you've got a body that is currently, like, definitely way more capable and suited to this type of effort over, you know, going and running a really fast 5k or like a super cruiser 50k.

Like, you need the slow and the hard right now, and I love that that came together in Normans.

But to set the stage, because people are gonna be like, Nolan's 14, I thought.

No, no, different things.

Like, what.

What is Norman's 13?

And when did you first hear about it?

So Norman's 13 is a link up of all of the California Sierra 14ers.

So there are 15 14ers in the state.

And Norman's 13 is a link up of the 13 and the specific Sierra range.

So the other two that are not included are White Mountain which is across the Owens river valley and Mount Shasta, which is way up north in the southern terminus of the Cascade volcanic belt.

So basically I heard about it through wanting to just do a link up of like some kind of like climbing runny thing in the Sierra and was like, maybe I have to come up with something myself.

And then I found that this actually already existed and was like, that thing already exists.

That's so cool.

I gotta do that someday.

And yeah, I found it through researching something to do in the Sierra like that.

And I kind of thought maybe I would just come up with my own circuit to just go do.

And it ended up being Norman's 13 that Andy Golich, it's his brainchild, he came up with it and it's such a brilliant idea.

I don't think I would have been able to cope with something as cool as what he came up with.

So he should get a lot of kudos for that because it's such a sick idea.

But yeah, I had in my head I really wanted to do it.

And then it was something I was planning on doing.

Kind of right around when the house stuff all blew up, I was like, oh yeah, I'll just go do that as a project next year.

And then all of my house stuff unfolded where I was fully taken out from really doing much of anything for quite some time.

And I could not stop thinking about it.

It became this like obsession and compass during the midst of, you know, all of those health things.

I was just like, I, if I can, if I can even just like get out to one of those trailheads again, I will be so happy.

And so, yeah, it became so, so much bigger for me than just like going and doing it.

And obviously it's like a big route in and of itself.

But in a way I feel like going through all of that really put into perspective what a route like that can, can really mean and, and, and really is.

And I feel like maybe I wouldn't have given it as much appreciation if I hadn't gone through all of this.

And so, yeah, I feel like that was a really big lesson in a lot of ways.

I just was so grateful for the opportunity to try in a way that I haven't felt before.

I feel like I've spent most of my life just always getting to try and it was like the opportunity to win that mattered, you know, like, I gotta win.

But now I'm like at that point and still, honestly, I'm just like, I just want to be able to try and experience these things.

And I genuinely am not attached to an outcome.

I just want the experience and to be in that position and I really just want to follow that.

And I think that's a really beautiful thing to come of something that really sucked.

Yeah, it's like I get to do the thing and that is.

And that like, can be a guiding light moving forward.

What are the stats on Normans?

So because it's an open route, you can kind of figure out your best line, but it's roughly 105 miles.

The way I did it was 105 miles and 40,000ft of vert.

Based on the route metrics, could be plus or minus a couple miles.

Plus or minus like a couple thousand feet of vert.

But yeah, it's kind of within that range.

So 105 miles, 40,000ft is kind of a good way of, of.

Framing it.

No, but I think that's what makes it really special.

And we're going to define this kind of like open route idea because you actually did it in the opposite direction of the men who had done it because no woman had done it before you or at least hadn't finished it.

I don't know if someone's attempted it, but there's no woman's time on the route and the men all went in the opposite direction.

And so one, we're gonna talk about why maybe you went the direction you did.

But two, that's interesting because it's like you have nothing to compare it to because no one's gone that direction.

And then I guess, you know what makes Normans so special is that one, it isn't a trail.

There's a lot of off trail, there's a lot of overlanding and scrambling.

But it also makes it really unique because you have to source information and spend time on the route.

So tell us a little bit about like, what makes Normans special in that regard, because I think that's, that's very different than maybe most, not all, but many fkts and any trail running.

Yeah, I would say the thing, the thing that makes Normans special is you can't just be a trail runner and you can't just be a rock climber.

You have to be able to, you have to be able to have the right head for moving and really exposed terrain for a very long time without gear, as well as the endurance and the ability to like move quickly through off trail, trail type terrain without getting so fatigued that you have to stop.

So it's interesting in that way because you have to, you kind of have to have both in order to do it.

And what I think really is special about the route that Andy came up with, which is why I like to make the point that I don't know if I could have come up with something like that myself because so it's so brilliant, is that it combines the sort of gem aspects of the Sierra, which is this pristine granite for rock climbing.

The just like beautiful solid, not chassis rock and knife edge ridgelines that can come of it, as well as the seas of talus that also are classic and the JMT miles on the John Deere trail.

It combines all of those things.

And you get the high alpine moments and you get the summits and you get the deep valleys in the rivers and the lakes.

It literally goes through ray lakes.

Like you get everything in this route that I think is what makes the Sierra so incredible.

And really the only thing it's missing as far as like the sort of bigger alpine objectives is concerned is that like glacier travel and ice and mixed climbing component.

Like you're generally not getting that unless you do it in the winter or something, but still you're not getting glacier travel in this era.

But it's really cool in that way.

You get a lot of it.

Outside of that.

Did you fuel your inner rock nerd?

Yeah, so much.

I was like, where are the crystals?

Remember, Olivia did study rocks basically for her undergraduate degree because she likes nature.

So she got a lot of rock time and still likes rocks, which I think is really, really important.

I guess what made it special being the first woman to establish a time on it.

Because it's like, that's really the unknown.

And then again, I also want to touch again, like, touch specifically on like your choice to do it in the opposite direction than the people who had completed it before you.

Yeah, I, gosh, I honestly, my dream was to find another woman to do it with.

I thought that would be so much fun.

But just with the timing of it all and just everything, it ended up being really difficult to do.

And so I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna do this experience that I, I want.

And, but you also couldn't find any singular dude that could do the whole thing with you, like you were gonna break them all.

So that was also very special.

Yeah, I, I, that, yeah.

But yeah, I, I guess for me it was more just about doing it and less about being like, I get to be the first woman, though that is definitely a first time, at least in my understanding that I've ever done something as like the it so that, that does feel pretty cool.

Like, I really appreciate that maybe my time and the just fact that I did it can be an inspiration for other super badass women to go and crush it.

Because I know that that time can get brought down so much.

And I just like really hope that someone goes out and just like rages and does it because I know it's possible.

And so if, if I'm an influencing factor in any way for other women to go out and do it, that is really cool.

And so I guess that's kind of what means the most to me about being the first is maybe having a little bit of that influence.

But I think that's also the cool thing about being the first to do something is it doesn't even matter that it was me.

It just matters that someone did it.

And so if that's me, cool.

But yeah, I don't know.

That's, I guess, kind of how I feel about that.

Oh, and I guess the reason why I went the other direction, a lot of the other guys, they were kind of thinking or did do the full California 14ers as a part of the project because it in many ways doing Normans is kind of the best way to also get the California's California 14ers FKT.

It's just a really quick and efficient way to do it.

Quick is all relative, but I.

In projecting different segments of the route, I've spent a lot of time out there.

I just really like the flow of going north to south because the way the Palisade traverse, the flow of that thunderbolt to sill and that whole section goes, there is one chimney around like the U notch that I just.

It's so much faster for me to just wrap it than try to shimmy up this chassis chimney without being able to place any pro and just feel really insecure.

And that alone, I was like, that's kind of one of the great reasons for me to do it the other direction and so tired on the jmt.

But, but.

And the other part that I know could maybe make my direction slower is there is more vertical gain going the direction I did on the JMT than the other direction.

So I don't know about maybe, maybe that makes a difference, but I don't know.

I just really like the flow of, of that.

And I also just really liked the idea of doing my favorite section, which is that Palisade traverse and that technical crux first.

It just felt safer.

It felt more interesting.

It felt like I could be more engaged and part of the like Journey and landscape in a section where that really matters versus doing it at the very end where my brain is like not going to be as acute.

And it is the first time I've done a project like that.

So I was like, I don't know how I'm going to respond.

So if I'm like totally delulu out there and I'm doing the, the crux at the end, like, maybe I shouldn't do that just in case.

So also just like, yeah, mitigating risk, which I now know I feel incredibly comfortable and I was definitely being overly cautious in that way.

But lastly, there is something about the just vibe and energy of Cottonwood Lakes area where I ended that is like, it feels so comforting and welcoming.

And I have always felt that going into that zone.

And so there's something that I felt like was really going to draw me to just like get there.

And I feel that in a lot of parts of the Sierra.

But there's just something about like that particular spot where I was like, if I get to end down there, like, that's pretty cool.

And I got to, you know, sleep in my own bed and wake up and go start.

Because I started on the trailhead, that's like out of Bishop.

So it's also kind of nice.

That is a added benefit.

How long were you out there?

I mean I watched your dot for a long time.

Kaylee Blevins and I were refreshing things like psychopaths and like texting Matt and texting Kim and we were insane.

And then your like tracker would stop working and we're like, ah, panicking.

So it was a whole.

I had, I experienced Norman's this early on my end as well.

But what was the total accumulative time, Start to finish?

3 days, 17 hours and some number of minutes that I don't remember.

You know, we won't hold that.

We won't hold you to it, I guess.

I mean so it's hard to do a play by play of like almost four days of movement.

And so I'm just, I'm curious, you know, just like if there's anything that surprised you about being out there or if you had any specific highs or lows.

I mean, I know it was cold.

I know your stomach, your tum, your tum tum was not happy.

But you had an amazing support system.

So like what were the highs and lows and if anything surprised you about the whole journey?

Yeah, so honestly I was pretty set for a while and doing it unsupported because I just wanted to go out and have it.

It be my experience.

And then it quickly became like, there's so many people that have been such a big part of this idea and me talking about it and planning it.

Let's just make it like a sort of just bigger thing and just like anyone who wants to come, like, come by.

And it was.

I don't know if I'll ever have the opportunity and if I do, great.

But to have had the opportunity to experience my favorite place in the world with some of my favorite people all meeting me at different points along the way, whether it be the start, the finish, during whatever, was truly insane.

To just like, be way the heck out there and just like also be a part of the community and the people, I just.

That really resonated with me and it was really special.

I feel like it just made me.

It.

It really just like kind of put into perspective how much these people really have meant to me.

And over the past few years of just needing a lot of support, going through all the health stuff.

And so in a way, it just like, it felt like a coming together of all of that, which is.

Are really amazing.

And I got emotional out there so much.

I was just like, I can't believe this, like, which is so funny.

And you made them work.

They had big, long days making it happen out there.

I was thinking about, you know, I got to have you out there during Tahoe Rim Trail, and it's like, it is super special.

But you guys had it easy.

I didn't make you guys, you know, rock 20 extra miles to get in and out to see me.

You guys got to drive to trailheads.

I know, but, yeah, I feel like it's.

I just.

It really surprised me how much having people around was a huge component to it.

I. Yeah, I'm just so used to, like, being way the heck out in the Sierra on my own, maybe with one other person or just kind of like doing my thing that I was like, that's the experience for this.

And I'm like, that was actually really cool.

I'm glad I did it that way.

I do think that a really cool style for it though, is going unsupported.

I think because the access is so freaking hard for this route.

A really cool style is just doing it with your stuff and like, maybe self supported and setting up some caches and, you know, whatever.

But.

But yeah, that it actually really surprised me.

And gosh, I guess it also surprised me how quickly I did, like the first day.

But in many ways, I think that kind of bit me in the butt a little bit because I wasn't focused on the feeling.

I had never done a multi day thing like this so I was like I'll just you know like send it.

And it was.

I should have focused more on like really dialing and feeling.

But it was also hard.

It was really cold, like unseasonably cold and like all the tar and lakes were just fully frozen over which was insane and it was crazy windy.

But I did choose that weather window.

Like I had a choice and I chose it because I watching like all the prevailing weather systems knew that there would be absolutely no smoke with basically 100% certainty because of the prevailing wind system and the strength of the prevailing wind at the time.

And so for me, because it was during a time where there was smoke and fires nearby, it was more important to me to save my lungs and just know that I wasn't going to have smoke and deal with the other conditions than look for like the perfect window.

So like eh, whatever.

It's never going to be perfect.

So I know that I'll be fine in the wind.

It's honestly better than being wet and trying to scramble over the the like potential snow or rain.

Enter Killian choosing to do that anyway.

Crazy.

So impressive.

But yeah, so that that was.

Yeah, I don't know that.

I don't know why what tangent I'm on right now.

But no, no, it's great, it's great.

And we're not going to.

We don't.

We won't go down too many wormholes.

I do have two final questions for you before I let you go for the evening.

Assuming all of our files upload and my bosses don't yell at us.

Okay.

So I read the outside piece that came out.

It was really cool that you had an outside piece post Norman's.

It was beautiful because they did it in a way which.

Where it allowed it allowed it to be in first person which I think was very special.

And there's a quote at the end or near the end that says normally when I finish a big objective I'm elated.

But here I felt a surreal and overwhelming sense of nostalgia.

Not nostalgia for the experience, but for the dream that came before it.

Because before I knew this route existed I'd always hoped to do something like it.

And so I'm curious about nostalgia and the dream of the unknown and how this experience is going to shape you moving forward when it comes to dreams and pursuing big scary goals.

Yeah, I, I feel like for me because so much of it ended up being about really and truly the process and the journey and the just act of doing Norman's 13, not finishing it, not being like, I, I completed it, I did it.

But literally doing it was so.

It was like the driving factor in so many ways.

And now that I did it and I have that experience and I have that confidence to know that so many things in my life do not need to be set up or perfect or like, my health doesn't need to be perfect, my training doesn't need to be perfect, the weather doesn't need to be.

Perfect.

But I can just like go and try and do it anyway because if I want to, that's enough.

That really resonated with me and I think the nostalgia, specifically with Normans, was just how much of a compass it was for me for so many years through a really hard time to have been able to just like look back and be like immediately and be like, wow, I did that.

And that anticipation and that dream, that real motivating component to all of this is now gone.

What's going to fill that void?

And I think that was a part of where that like bittersweet nostalgia feeling was coming from, was like, I did it.

Which meant there was like this shift in what I was going to be like thinking about and focusing on next, which is beautiful and great and a point of a lot of growth.

Like instead now I am coming up with my own dreams and my own sort of things to focus on that.

I don't necessarily need to become this like multi year thing because I'm dealing with health stuff, but hopefully I can just go like try them out and see what happens and that will be enough in a way that I didn't necessarily understand before.

I love that.

That's incredibly special and I can't wait to see what you do next.

I end every interview with the same question.

And that is, what is something you know now that you wish you could tell your younger self?

And maybe for you, that's the middle school skier trying to keep up with the bigger kids.

Like, what, what do you know now coming out of this past year, coming out of Normans that you wish you could tell your younger self?

Oh, that's even prepped me for.

It's a lot.

I think, honestly, I think there was for most of my life, just like I definitely had a high focus on, like I must be dealing with certainty.

Like I would force certainty and I think I would tell her my young self now that I can just move forward with curiosity and that's enough.

Things don't have to be certain for it to be okay to move forward.

And outcomes definitely matter less than how you listen to yourself along the way.

And yeah, I think that's what I'd probably tell my younger self.

Yeah.

And we can be happy not going to Milan.

Yeah, we live in our.

We can be happier.

Yeah, we're fine.

We're fine.

We can watch it from our.

Our couches.

She's pretty great.

Some brownies?

Yeah.

Oh, I'm.

I'm coming.

I'm coming to Bishop.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

This was amazing.

Thank you.

I could have stayed and chatted with Olivia for a lot longer.

In fact, we hit pause and done on the record button and then caught up for another 30 minutes, some of which was very juicy.

So maybe we'll get her back on the podcast soon in the future to catch up on some more things.

But I hope you enjoyed that hour that we got to spend with Olivia today.

I want to thank Rabbit again for being our official apparel partner and the presenting sponsor of this episode.

You can go over to RunAndRabbit.com and use the code Trailsocietyjan for the month of January to receive 10% off your order.

Again, that's Trailsocietyjan.

A huge thank you and shout out to our producing partners over at Feisty Media.

Give them a follow over on Instagram @FeistyMedia and go over to their website, Feisty Co to see what they've got cooking up.

Have a snack.

We'll catch you next week.

Or until then, we'll see you out on the trail.