In today's episode we talk with Texas based artist, Debbie Carroll about perfectionism and her development as an artist.

Debbie Carroll: https://www.debbiecarrollfineart.com/

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Mentioned in the episode:

Natalie Featherstone

Laguna Gloria @ Austin

Hello, and welcome to cowgirl artist of America's podcast. I'm your host and the founder of cowgirl artist of America. Megan Wimberley. Today, we'll be talking with Debbie Carroll, an artist based out of Texas. We talk about perfectionism and how it has influenced her career as an artist. I hope you get a lot from today's episode and remember, perfection does not exist by the way, it's May 10th, which means that there are only five more days to join CGA as a founding member or a founding plus signature member. Make sure to go to cowgirl artists of america.org, to check out the benefits, submit your dues and application. This is the only opportunity for you to join cowgirl artists of America at the ground level, as a founding member, after May 15th membership will not open back up until August.

Do you have anything on your easel at the moment?

Um, I have a commission that I'm working on that it's, I, I feel kind of bad. I had a lot of stopping and starting. We kind of started it and then I had to go to the show. I did an art fair in San Antonio, came home, worked on that. Then we had a garage sale, you know, just, that's not a, really a work related thing, but it is a lot of work

. Yeah, for sure. And then you were harvesting grapes today, is that right?

Oh, we ended up the, um, they didn't get their plants delivered, so mm-hmm we were gonna plant

Oh, plant. Okay.

That's but we harvest too.

Okay. Do you grow your own grapes?

No. Um, so we moved to this little town it's outside of St. Angelo. So we're in west, Texas and we met this couple. Um, she happens to be a cousin of a friend of mine in Dallas. I've known for 30 years and they have this great little winery and it's literally right across the street from us right across highway. So we've helped them out a couple times, you know, with harvesting and, you know, they try to get some volunteers to come and help it. It's pretty fun. It, and it's interesting to see the whole process, you know?

Yeah. That's cool. So what town do you live in

Christo? We're about an hour and 45 minutes. East of Midland. Odesa.

Okay. Are you, did you grow up in west, Texas?

No. No. I grew up, um, mostly in Washington state in El Illinois. My dad was in the air force, so we moved around a little bit.

Okay.

I, I had to move.

What brought you to west Texas?

Well, when I first moved to Texas back in 81, um, I lived in the Dallas area. Then I lived in Houston. Then I lived in Dallas. Then I lived in Houston and then we lived in Austin for about 25 years. And then we just decided, um, once our kids were out of high school that we really could go anywhere and we wanted to go to a small town. Um, I've always wanted to live in a small town and I think it's really pretty fun. Um, I don't know why I always wanted that, but I did. And it's great. You know, it's a, it's a small community, but we're close to San Angelo, which is about a hundred thousand people. So, you know, we have mostly everything except for a Costco, which I would like to have, but you know, small sacrifice

. Yeah. Are, are you pretty close to a major city?

Well, um, if you call San Angelo major, I mean it's a hundred thousand. That's pretty big. Yeah. But we're about three hours from Austin, three hours from San Antonio. Um, I think it's about four hours from Lubbock. So I would say, you know, I mean we can get to San Antonio in three hours, so that's pretty good.

Yeah. How far are you away from big bend?

Um, I think we're about six, six hours,

Man. That park is just so far from everything .

Oh, but it's so fantastic.

Yeah. I never got to go down to it. I would have trips planned, you know, that I wanted to do, but yeah, it's like it is out there. I figured maybe you would be closer, but that's still quite a drive.

Well, that was one of the areas we looked at when we were moving. We, um, we love New Mexico and that kind of terrain in that area down there really reminded us a lot of New Mexico. It's um, very rugged and beautiful.

Well in your art. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Oh, I was just gonna say there's a really nice art scene here too. Mm.

Yeah, your art is very, uh, feels very New Mexico to me. Were, were you inspired by that, that sort of landscape?

Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, I discovered New Mexico later in life, you know, I think I was in my early thirties the first time I went and I just fell in love with it. And you know, when Mike and I got married, we made many, many trips. I mean, we tried to get over there at least once a year, sometimes twice a year. And, um, it, it's kind of what really got me moving forward to painting because, you know, I would see all of the, the tile school of painters and the, the kind of art that was there was, um, more interpretive. I always got hung up on the perfectionism thing and the realism. Um, so when I saw all of these artists doing these, um, fun interpretations and, you know, using a lot of color that maybe isn't necessarily what you think of when you think of some of these scenes. And, um, that was actually really pretty, um, motivating for me to finally move in that direction and, and finally start painting. I thought talked about it for years and finally got around to it. I wish I had started earlier, but, you know,

So did you, did you grow up or like, I guess when did you start making art? Even if just for like a hobby or just for fun, like

When that start? Oh, I can remember as a little kid, um, you know, in grade school, you know, I was always one of those kids that the teacher would say, oh, look what Debbie did. Or, you know, if there was some sort of little art fair show, they'd always enter one of my pieces. So early on, you know, the teachers would always say, um, to my parents, oh, your, your child's talented, but you know, my parents didn't really, they didn't know art. They didn't really know that that would be something that you could actually do. I never felt like that growing up, um, that it, I just felt like that was beyond my cap on my capabilities, but, um, but I did enjoy, like I remember in high school, you know, being one of those kids where other other kids would say, oh, you draw so well.

And you know, it was nice to be recognized to, you know, that I could do something and do it well. And, um, and it was something that I enjoyed too. And, and I started out my college career in, in art, but, you know, I ended up changing it to fashion merchandising cuz I was worried about, you know, what would I do for a job? I really couldn't picture myself doing anything. But um, you know, I would've liked to have been an artist back then, but I just, just didn't feel like that, um, was possible, which I know it sounds weird, but, but that was just the way I felt. And then I didn't do anything for a number of years. And um, I think when you have that though, you aren't going to be a happy person unless you're exercising that creativity. And finally I just like, okay, I've gotta do something.

So I, I started, you know, taking classes, um, at Laguna, Gloria in Austin, they had a great, um, kind of a, kind of a continuing ed sort of thing going on there and um, to print making and watercolor and all these different things, you know, just kind of trying to see what, what, what I liked and I love print making and I would like to do some of that, but, um, but the painting was something, I always said some I'm going to paint. And then finally I said, okay, well some days here, I'm gonna just do this. And, and I signed up for a workshop and it was really, um, uh, good for me because it was an abstract workshop and it was in watercolor. So it was two things that were outside of my comfort zone. And, um, and what I liked about it, the, the guy that taught the workshop, Stephen Kilburn, he's a Potter and, and a painter in, um, in TAs.

And we had been buying his pottery for years and years and admiring his art. And so when I saw he was doing a workshop, I thought, okay, I'm doing this. And, um, really went into it with an open mind and just tried to really listen to what he had to say about simplifying and, um, just looking at shapes and using color that maybe wasn't native color. And it really was, that was kind of my, my turning point where I said, aha, this is what I, I I'm gonna do. And I'm gonna go in this direction, no more realism, no more agonizing over perfectionism. You know, I was just gonna have fun with it and that's, you know, it was the best thing I could have done.

That's cool. So you said you went into fashion, fashion merchandising with your college career. Is that what you ended up graduating with or did you move it to something different?

Um, I graduated with that, but I never really did much with it. Um, right after I got outta college, I went on a student trip to Europe and I loved it so much. I decided I was gonna work in the travel business so I could travel. And I did do that for a number of years. And then, um, did segue back into doing some retail. I was doing some display. I worked for Creighton barrel doing store display and windows and, um, you know, but it, it was, I kept moving back and forth for a while there between different careers, it was travel, then retail, then back to travel. And actually the last travel job I had, I was a meeting planner and, um, then we had kids and it just became too much with kids and work. And so I stayed home and I stayed home with them.

And on a fluke, I ended up making jewelry. I was making jewelry for myself that ended up having a little thing at my house where I sold jewelry and I sold like $900 worth of very inexpensive jewelry. And I thought, oh, Hey, I could do that work from home. And I think that was probably a good stepping stone because, um, it really got me into that whole environment of, um, creating, uh, creating for a market, um, doing shows and having to talk to people about, um, what I was doing. Um, and then the whole business and marketing end of it. Um, I always say, you know, in this, in doing what we do, you wear a lot of hats, you wear many, many hats and it helps to be good at a lot of different things. And I think that that really was, um, even though it wasn't painting, it still was a good basis for, for moving on into painting. Um, and actually after being in Austin, you know, for after a while there everybody was making jewelry and that's when I said, okay, I'm going to paint now. Then do something that maybe not everybody else is doing. And, um, plus I think, you know, it's, you have more of a voice doing that sort of thing. Maybe painting there's a lot more room for expression.

Yeah. So when you had your travel business, were you making art at all during that time?

No. Um, but it, this is kind of a funny thing. I would take pictures and I would think, oh, I'm gonna take a picture of this. This would make a great painting someday. So I did a lot of that, where it was always sort of there. And, but I just, for whatever reason didn't go there, I, I think it was a confidence thing for me, you know? Um, and also, you know, I, if I started to do something and it was bad, then I didn't wanna do it and that's not good. I mean, you know, that's one thing I've learned through, you know, through painting, you know, there's gotta be some experimentation, um, and you're not gonna have a masterpiece every single time. I've, I've taught a couple workshops and that's something I I've always tried to get across. You know, people will come to a workshop.

And when I know I've been guilty of this myself, um, but wanting to create a masterpiece and it's like, no, no, no, you're, you're here to learn, learn techniques, try things out, see what works, see what doesn't. And, um, and you know, even now with, with painting, you know, um, I've been doing it long enough where generally, if I have an idea in my head, I can pretty much do what, what I'm envisioning, but then there's those times where it doesn't really go the way you think you'd go and you kind of have to let go of that preconceived idea and let the painting take on a life of its own and maybe move in a direction that you didn't really anticipate. Yeah. So

Did, do you think that you grew up with the personality of kind of being more perfectionistic or is that something that you developed?

I think I grew up with that. Um, you know, I went through, um, I, I feel like, you know, growing up, we moved a lot and when I was a young child, I was pretty shy, but I think having to move several times and change schools, you know, you sort of learn to, to get past that. And, and again, I think it it's a confidence thing. So, um, I think with the perfectionism, um, sometimes you just have to give yourself permission to fail and sometimes that's hard to do.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, do you feel like, so when you were in school, like in, in high school, just, you know, kind of making art for fun, do you feel like you felt that need to be perfect when you were getting those compliments? Like, were, were you questioning, uh, you know, it's not that good or did you feel a little more confident when it was just more of a thing that you were doing just for fun?

Uh, I, I think I really, um, felt more confident when I had those affirmations, you know, um, I think going, doing what we do also can like lend itself to, um, what people call the imposter syndrome, where, you know, you really have to, um, it really does have to come from within that affirmation that you like, what you're doing. And that, that is something that I've learned, I think through age and maturity, um, you know, it doesn't really matter if other people, it does matter if other people like it, obviously, cuz you know, otherwise it won't sell, but you have to like what you're doing. Um, that that's the main thing you have to, to, to be proud of your work. And um, in it, it, the more I paint, I, I swear, I think the harder you are on yourself, the more you paint in, you know, obviously the more you paint you're getting better, but at the same time, I, and I don't think I'm alone in this. Um, I think that you become a little more critical of, of what you're doing. So, um, when you do have those things that you're like, oh my God, this really, I just, I hit hit the mark here. Then you feel really, really good. It's, it's a good feeling.

Do you think, so when you say you're critical of your more critical of yourself, like what is the inner dialogue with that? Can you give an example?

Oh, probably. Well, you know, okay. So like maybe working on a painting and you put a color on and you're like, oh no, no, no, no, no, that's not working. I mean, it, it, there is sort of an inner dialogue, I think, through the whole thing. Um, and it's trying to cut off the, the, the critical inner dialogue is the, is the thing that you wanna do, um, and sort of keep that the positive spin on it. Um, cuz it would be easy to, you know, let that negative voice in there. Um, I, I read the, um, the artist way. I don't know if you've ever read that book by Julia Cameron and she talks about that a lot. Um, another good book is art and fear. Um, talking about, you know, not being afraid to, to just put it out there. Um, and sometimes I, I had a piece last year, this is a good example.

Um, of one of those times when you're talking through it, um, I had this piece, I was doing it for show. So I was sort of on a deadline of, I had to get several pieces done and every week I'd say, okay, I'm gonna work on this. And I had it all plotted out and I had this big piece and I usually, you know, what I do is I, um, I like to work off of either a black canvas or a tone it with a color. I, you know, it's easier than facing a big blank white canvas. And so I block in, I block in, I sketch in my painting and then I block it in and I blocked in this, um, sort of little Ridge of mountains. It was actually big bend. It was the, that, that little wall, that little San canyon leading down to the canyon that, that, that wall there, that's what it looks like to me.

And, um, I kept looking at it. I kept thinking, you know, and cuz I had just taken some blue paint and just, you know, just made these marks to suggest shadow. And I kept looking at, and, and I thought, you know, that looks pretty good, but surely that can't be finished. no, that can't be finished. So I just worked on all of the rest and I went back to that part and I thought, you know, I really like this. And just because it was easy, doesn't mean it was bad. It, but it was easy. So to me somehow it seemed like, well, this certainly couldn't be done. I didn't work hard enough for it. So I left it, I left it and I really loved it. And it was interesting because, um, a couple of my painter friends, when they saw it, they said, oh, that's a little different for you.

And I said, yes, I know. Um, but it, it was good because I think it was kind of letting go of some of that, um, need to feel very controlled and be a little bit more, um, spontaneous and kinda let something live. Cuz I mean, what's the worst thing, you know, if the painting, if nobody else likes it, you can always go back and do more. But once you do that more, you take away that spontaneity and that freshness I think. Yeah. And that's something I've learned from doing. Um, I've been doing a lot of plan air painting and you can really, um, overwork, I mean the thing with that type of painting, I think that the, what I get out of it, I like the imediacy of it, you know, you're there in the moment getting your impressions down and you know, that's what makes it fun and that's what makes it appealing. So I try to carry a little of that over into the studio whenever I can. And I think it's a, yeah, I think it's a healthy approach.

And you started out working more in realism, right?

Well before. Okay. Yeah. Years ago, years ago. And then, um, like I said, I really wasn't doing much of anything. And then I took that workshop and started painting these more, um, uh, simple compositions, um, where I was just really looking at shapes and color and they were representationally you could tell what they were, but they were certainly not realistic. And then the more I painted, I think I probably developed a little bit more of a realistic style within that framework. Uh, still trying to keep it, um, simple. That's always a goal for me is, um, to really kind of simplify it and try to have the essence of it and have it be good. Um, and I feel like that's a pretty hard challenge because, um, to make it interesting and simple, you really have to do it right. And so, you know, I really try to rely on composition a lot in color, uh, to try to make that happen. But, um, but yeah, I think, you know, so I started painting back in 2008, 2009, but I really wasn't doing very much back then. I thought five to 10 paintings in a year was a lot and now I probably paint, you know, a variety of sizes, but probably anywhere from 75 to, to a hundred.

Wow. Yeah. That's a lot of painting.

Well, I, I try to get in there just about every day. It doesn't always happen. Um, but I try and I feel like it's that time at the easel, you know, if I wanna get better, the only way to really get better is just to spend time, spend time painting.

Yeah. And so you said, uh, when we were emailing, you mentioned, you know, that perfectionism was something that you struggled with a whole lot and that ha it had actually prevented you from even creating art for a while. Can you tell us about that?

Oh yeah. Well, that's pretty much why I didn't really do much of anything after I got outta college until in my thirties, because I would maybe pick something up and do something, but then I would think, oh, but this isn't very good and I wanted it to be good. So I just kind of put it off, you know, and I, that, that pretty much kept me from doing things for a long time.

And so did you just completely stop making or you just wouldn't finish pieces?

I pretty much completely stopped for periods of time and then I might pick something up, but then not do anything for like a number of years. And, and I do kind of, I regret that because, you know, I think man, if I had stayed with it and said, Hey, you know, just work and just do it, you know, and not worry about it being perfect. Um, just think where I could be now instead of waiting till later, you know, to, to, to start painting.

Yeah. So I, when you mentioned, you know, feeling more critical, the more you paint, it sounds like to me that the perfectionism that prevented you from painting would be more critical. How do you, um, differentiate between the critical you feel now versus the perfectionist that you felt then?

I think the, the critical I feel now is, um, it doesn't keep me from doing, from doing it, but it does, um, make me try to strive to go to that next level. Um, I just feel like, um, I, and I think most artists probably feel this way. They, they, they do, they want it continue to get better, try new things. And, um, maybe critical is not the right term. I don't know. It's that? Um, um, I mean, I do, you know, you do the best you can do if it it's always there, that it's always there that wanting to strive to, to get to that next level. Mm-hmm so I guess maybe when I say I'm critical of what I'm doing, you know, um,

Although I have to say sometimes, you know, you, you do something and you put it to the side because you're like, okay, I'm not sure I like this. And then you pull it out or you pull something out that you did, you know, a few years ago. And it's often just a really pleasant surprise. Sometimes I'll look at it and go, you know, that was pretty good. You know, even though it was something that was a little bit older, so, um, you know, I say I'm critical, but I mean, it's all in an effort to try to just continue to, to grow and get better.

Yeah. And so that, um, that feeling of like, I wanna make this better, I wanna do my best. How would you describe that actual emotional feeling of having that conversation with yourself? Is there like a way that that feels,

Um,

Holding myself accountable? Um, does it feel stress

Stressful at all?

Well, you know, I, I, I would say no because, I mean, I think it's just part of the painting process and being an artist. I think, um, I wouldn't grow if I, if I just everything I did and said, oh, that's the best thing I ever took it, you know, I would never get any better. So I do have to have some of that. Um, but not to a point where it's crippling and you don't wanna do anything, you know? Um, I, I think it's, it's some, a little bit of that is a healthy thing.

Yeah. And so how, if you look back to how you were feeling whenever you stopped painting, or you really weren't creating, how did that feel to you? Cause it seems to me that those two things are different, different for you and have felt a different way. So can you describe the way that the perfectionism felt as like an emotion or a sensation in your body?

Um,

Well, I don't know. I'm, I'm thinking about that. I was thinking about, um, you know, when I said I didn't create anything for a while when I was doing the jewelry, I, I was actually creating and I did that for about 13 years. I don't do too much of it now because I just don't even have time. But, um, I think that that was, um, a good outlet because

I didn't feel that that perfectionism that I did when I was trying to do realistic art, um, with the jewelry that I, you know, that I did with the painting, um, or the drawing, if that makes any sense. Mm-hmm um, so I think that was like I was saying before, I think that was a good stepping stone to prepare me to move on to the next level of, um, creativity and get back to doing the art mm-hmm I think it was, you know, a slow growing process mm-hmm of, um, getting back to it.

Yeah. So if somebody, um, like say a newer artist was struggling with, you know, sometimes they're feeling like crippling, like perfectionism, and then sometimes they're just, well, I just really wanna do my very best, you know, um, I think sometimes people have a hard time differentiating between the two and they think that the perfectionism is, um, is just, they wanna do their best, but they let it stop them. And so it's not actually helping them to do their best, it's preventing them from doing much of anything. And so is there a way that you would, um, talk to somebody to help them to understand the difference in between like the holding yourself to a high standard and, you know, creating a quality product versus, you know, this way of like talking or feeling about yourself and your art that, that prevents you from doing anything?

I think maybe what I would say would be to, um, tell them, just do maybe, and maybe they don't, if they're feeling that way, maybe they don't wanna invest in expensive materials, but tell them maybe to just every day, spend 30 minutes or an hour just doing stuff, doing stuff, and even thinking, oh, if I don't like this, I can throw it away. Um, I think, you know, with the materials, materials are expensive, maybe that would prevent somebody from feeling free to just kind of crank through and draw this and then, you know, put that down and go onto the next thing. Um, it's practice. And I think you have to practice using a positive voice, turning off the negative voice. Um, maybe get in with a group, um, of other painters meet once a week or a month or once a month, you know, and, and, um, kind of talk to them about what they do to work through their problems.

Um, but I think if, um, I'm trying to think, like if somebody had talked to me back then, I think what I would've benefited from hearing, would've been, um, somebody saying, Hey, just do do it for yourself. And don't worry about what anybody else thinks about it and to just do it and, you know, maybe do as many painting drawings, you know, on a regular basis as possible and kind of work your way through it because once you start seeing some progress too, if you're in that perfectionism mode, um, you can see that, Hey, you know what, um, this isn't perfect, but I am making progress. And that, that would be kind of a building block.

Yeah. That's a big thing that I, I feel like sometimes I, maybe I hope I don't get on people's nerves saying it too much, but I really, with Cal arts of America want to help people to understand that you don't just open your eyes one day and you're a fabulous artist. Um, oh no. You know, like maybe that happens here and there, but that's few and far between, and it really learning how to embrace all levels of where you're at. And so, you know, if you're just beginning or you're more new, you're not gonna be at the level that somebody who's been painting 10 or 20 years, you're just not, and that's okay because they used to be at your level too. And they wouldn't be where they are without all the steps in between. And so embracing art is one of those things. You really, you have to embrace the journey because there's just not a shortcut.

No, there really isn't, it it's, it's, um, learning by practice mm-hmm and, um, it is, um, I love it when, uh, some of these established artists will show some early work and, uh, it's always refreshing, uh, sometimes it's, their early work is really good, but you also see where they have like a level of progression, uh, maybe, um, where they really fine tune their style. I mean, it's their own, um, I don't know. I, I like when some of those established artists also share their early experiences, as far as like getting into shows or exhibitions and where they don't get selected and it, sometimes it's shocking and you think, oh my gosh, they didn't get in. So that's reassuring cuz you know, um, I tell people, um, other artist friends, I say, I think, you know, you have to have a lot of nos before you get yeses, you know, as far as with art shows or getting into galleries and that kind of thing too. Um, but, um, but it's definitely a process. The whole thing is a process mm-hmm

And it's so funny cuz that's come up with every conversation I've had recently about perfectionism is, you know, the, the before and after thing, what do you think it was about the class that you took with a more abstract style that helped you to kind of embrace not the realism, not the perfectionism embrace the shapes and the colors and kind of going with it a little bit more. Do you think it was the class or where you were in life or what do you think it was?

Well, I think it was a couple things. I was really ready to loosen up my style and um, what was interesting, the, a lot of the people in the class were kind of trying to emulate what he was doing and his, uh, shapes were a little bit more, um, straight edge or uh, not hard edged, but um, more, um, geometric mm-hmm and um, the, the, the workshop happens to be, um, Adobe churches. We were painting Adobe churches and I could not for the life of me make that geometric shape because when I look at those, they're so organic and rounded. And so I was painting with sort of curved lines and I remember Steven came around and he's like, uh, is this usually the way you paint? And I'm like, oh no, no, no, this is very different from anything I've ever done. I'm trying to loose enough. I wanna have fun with this. And he said, keep doing what you're doing. And he said, that's, that's a good start. So, um, yeah, I think it was partly kind of almost that giving permission to, um, do something different to learn, to, um, let go of some preconceived ideas of how my art should be. It was, um, it was definitely a convergence it's like, I, I think, you know, um, but that definitely was a turning point for me.

Where do you think your, um, preconceived notions about what your art should be came from?

Oh, I'm sure it was from school. You know, everybody always wanted to do things that looked realistic. I remember drawing things and people saying, oh my God, that looks exactly like it. You know, and thinking, Ooh, you know, that's a cool skill to have. And um, and it is a cool skill to have. I'm very rusty on my drawing now. I like to be able to draw, like I used to, um, that I need to practice a lot more. But, um, yeah, I, I think it comes from school. Um, I know I've talked to like when I did a couple of taught a couple of the workshops that I did. Um, I had a lot of people tell me that when they were in school, they had teachers that told them, oh, you're not an artist, you can't do this. Um, and that was kind of shocking to me. And I think because maybe that was the thing that only real and I'm, I'm not slamming realism. Trust me, I admire realistic painters. Um, Natalie Featherstone is an artist I've been following on Instagram and she's amazing. And I love her attention to detail and her realistic portrayal. But, um, but for me personally, I need to, to let go of that and do something that's more expressive and, um, it just makes me a happier, um, person creatively.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how we develop those ideas and hold onto them. Um, for sure. I definitely grew up the same way, you know, really kind of like the more realistic it could be, the better it was and

Mm-hmm, , there's just so many styles and whatever style you wanna embrace, you know, I mean, that's the thing about being an artist is it's not about somebody else's voice or somebody else's expectation, it's about your voice and what you see and what you're going for. And so it's kind of interesting that art, which is very subjective and open that we've kind of in some ways pigeonholed it. And I think in, in Western art, it can be that way a lot. You probably experience this being a cont more contemporary looking Western painter, that it's almost like it's too, too contemporary for a lot of the Western galleries, but then two Western for the rest. And so it's kind of an interesting, I think it's getting better, but it's kind of an interesting space to be in because I think so many Western art connoisseurs and artists have really valued the more realistic traditional approach as far as, you know, the moving outta perfectionism and like what you're working on now and just the experiences you've had. Um, are there any words of wisdom that you would wanna give to, to artists new, like particularly I think newer artists and then we'll talk about more advanced artists in a second.

Um, I could tell them to just do it, go for it. You know, I wish I had done that and I wasted a lot of time, but, um, yeah, I'll be grandma Moses of painting but uh, no, I would just tell them, just do it if they can afford to do some workshops, those can be very helpful with maybe an artist they really admire, um, get, go out to art shows, meet other artists. I think that having that, um, that network of other artists is very helpful, you know, cuz um, people that are doing what you do, they're gonna understand all the ups and downs, the trials and tribulations. Um, and it gives you somebody to talk to and bounce ideas off of. Um, in, I really, I really love my art friends and I feel like they've been, um, super supportive and, and I hope that they would feel the same way about me and that, um, you know, you really, um, gain a lot of out of those friendships professionally and also personally.

Yeah, I agree too, having a good community of artists and especially trying to get involved in a local group, um, you know, big groups like Cal arts of America is really great and you're getting to expand the reach of where you're meeting people, but also the local groups can be so valuable. Um, for anybody, whether they're getting started or they're established the art community. I, I came out of um, Oklahoma city, their art community is incredible. And I don't think some people maybe wouldn't wouldn't expect that cuz it's not that big of a, I mean it's a big city, you know, for the area, but it's not comparatively and it's not really some, a place that's thought of for like having a art, a big art scene, but it is thriving and people are really wanting to promote the arts in that community is so supportive and just like being able to get involved in that local community is makes it a world of difference.

Yeah. You're what, what you have community wise, I think is, um, super, super important. I guess maybe what I would say to some of the new artists though, if they, um, aren't feeling real secure about their work starting out. I don't know that I would necessarily share it on social media until they felt like if they get some criticism, it's not going to keep them from going forward.

If you've got the type of personality that's going to be totally discouraged. If anyone says an interesting negative when you're starting out, um, you know, being careful who you share that with, but it, you know, if it's not gonna hurt your feelings or whatever, then that's, um, different. But I think that's a skill we all have to develop because I don't think anybody is going to get through their art career and not be, be criticized, you know? And the way that, the way kind of that I think about that is that if somebody doesn't like my work, that's totally fine. It's just, they're my work is not for them. They're not my client and that's okay because I have other people who are, and, and the person who criticized me is going to go buy work that my clients wouldn't buy mm-hmm . And so, you know, people can definitely be kind of harsh or critical, but at the end of the day, they're just not the right people for you and that's okay.

And that is, and that finding your right audience. I mean that, that's also a crucial thing. Um, you know, I've done a few shows where, you know, I quickly learned, oh, this is not my audience and if you try to focus and let those things go and then focus on the things that do work for you.

And what would you say to artists who they are sharing their work? Maybe they're kind of more trying to get started with their business, but they're still feeling a little like insecure.

Um, well I think if you're taking your work to a show, um, just maybe knowing like what you just said that, um, unless you're trying to appeal to the mass audience, you're, you're gonna probably appeal to a certain sector.

Yeah. What about in the actual process of painting?

Thinking back on past successes probably is very helpful and reminding yourself, you know, of the good things and not dwelling on the bad things. I mean, and everybody can have a bad day.

Yeah. But

Yeah. And I think sometimes too, I also have a little trick that I do to get myself sometimes if I'm not really feeling it, but sometimes I'll say, oh, I'm just gonna go in the studio and work for one hour. But I don't feel like doing anything after an hour. I'll do something else. I'll move on, do something else. And it's amazing. Um, cuz you know, people, I heard people say, well, I'm waiting for inspiration. I'm like, eh, no, if I waited for inspiration every time I would never probably do anything. , you know, I think it's, you just have to show up and do the work mm-hmm for sure that and by doing that, you at the end of the day, that's what makes you feel good too, is knowing that you, you showed up, you did the work and you did the best you could do. Well,

Do you have any other thoughts that you would wanna share or anything about your work or your experience that you would wanna share with everyone?

Well, uh, just that I working on some representation, that's always sort of a constant, um, kind of wanting to maybe do fewer art fairs. I just had the best art fair I ever had ever.

Congratulations. That's awesome.

It's pretty amazing. I'm still pinching myself. Um, uh, cuz I never thought that, you know, people would say, oh yeah, I did this art fair and you know, and I sold X, Y, Z, and I think, oh, you know, or, or people that sell out, I, I, I still can't even conceive of selling everything in a booth, but um, it, there are a lot of work. It, the, the upside is, it's a great time to communi to communicate with people, meet people, talk about your art. But, um, it's a lot of time. I mean it took me two days just to wrap and pack up the car, load it, drive their setup. I mean it's days away from the studio and um, I'm in a couple galleries and I'm, it's a good problem to have, I'm having a hard time keeping up with stuff right now.

So I'm really wanting to stay more in the studio at this point. But, um, I, but I went and discourage people from doing the shows, um, especially early on because I think it's a really good way to, um, uh, expand your audience and meet people that you're not gonna meet otherwise. I mean, and, and I like being in the galleries because I can't be everywhere at once. You know, I, I need to have my, my stuff somewhere where other people can see it and um, and, um, and talk about it. So, um, yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to figure out my whole, um, approach right now as far as the business end of it.

Well, Debbie, thank you so much for your time and thank you for, um, agreeing to be on our podcast. I really appreciate it.

Oh, absolutely. And I feel like I finally get to kind of meet you. Not exactly close enough. Maybe we'll get to meet a person in the future.

Yeah, hopefully so. Well, it was so good talking to you.

Thank you, you

Too. Bye.

Bye.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode with artist. Debbie Carol. See the show notes for a link to check out her work and don't forget to join cowgirl artists of America as a founding or founding plus signature member by May 15th, go to www.cowgirlartistsofamerica.org.