In 2017, officers Daniel Ettinger and Salvador Aguirre were able to close a case that started in 2014. Marleen Puzak avoided investigation for years following complaints of animal neglect at her property. This episode breaks down the details of the case, a review on hoarding disorder, and the importance of mental health evaluations.

Our guest Daniel Ettinger (co-host of the Animal Control Report) shares with us his experience on this case, how he was able to obtain a warrant, his findings, what worked well, what could have worked better, and how him and his partner helped both the animals and quite possibly Ms. Puzak herself. This is an informational episode for anyone interested in learning more about animal hoarding.

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Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host, Dr.

3

G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

Today, repeat guest Dan Ettinger

from the Animal Control Report.

5

Welcome back, Dan.

6

Daniel Ettinger: Well, thanks for

having me and, you know, being

7

part of that podcast network.

8

The, uh, what did we call it?

9

The Keep It Humane Podcast Network?

10

DrG: Keep It Humane Podcast

Network, I believe so.

11

Daniel Ettinger: It's fun to be a

part of, part of the network to have.

12

My, you know, my homies

and homettes, if you will.

13

I don't know if that's a thing,

but it is now it is now it is now.

14

Thanks for having, seriously.

15

Thanks for having, for having me.

16

And, uh, I'm excited to chat about

some of the stuff that we got going on.

17

DrG: Yeah, absolutely.

18

Cause you know, I've been doing a lot

of cases recently or not cases, podcasts

19

recently on animal welfare issues that

are really super important, right?

20

We're talking about one health and the

importance of taking care of animals to

21

decrease the intake of shelters and the

issues with no kill and everything else.

22

But I've been doing so many of those

cases that I have not had a chance to

23

dive into a forensic case, which is

really like one of my biggest passions.

24

So I know that you have a huge case

that you worked on, and I'm super

25

excited to talk to you about it.

26

Daniel Ettinger: All right.

27

Well, I'm excited to talk about it, dude.

28

Um, I'm a little, you know, I'll

tell you what, I, little side note,

29

sometimes we get distracted in life

and I got injured a little while back.

30

I actually got hit by a dog.

31

You can check out that, uh, that

whole conversation on, on our

32

podcast, The Animal Control Report.

33

I hope it was a big dog.

34

Well, I'm not going to give it away.

35

I'm going to lead people to our podcast

if they want to know, uh, what happened,

36

but I've been kind of out of it, Dr.

37

G.

38

Like, I I don't sleep anymore.

39

I'm, you know, doing prehab getting

preparation for having surgery.

40

It's a, it's crazy.

41

Like, I've never experienced

anything like this in my life.

42

So I apologize in advance to the listeners

if I, uh, may seem a little bit out of it.

43

DrG: It's all good.

44

We love you anyway.

45

Daniel Ettinger: No, that's great.

46

DrG: So, yeah.

47

So you want to start talking,

we're going to be talking about

48

a case from Denver, correct?

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, with Marlene Elizabeth Puzak.

50

So do you want to give people the

rundown of what that was about?

51

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah.

52

And so what I'm going to do, I

think probably the proper way to

53

go about this is just to read the

actual affidavit that I wrote.

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In order to obtain a search

warrant for the property.

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We, we got a call in 2017 and I'll kind of

go through all this as I read it about a

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multiple amount of dogs on the property.

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And when we went out there,

me and my partner, Sal, Mr.

58

559 himself, he and I had

some, there were some concerns.

59

Sal, though he was a newer

officer with our department, he

60

had Um, experience quite a bit

of experience in animal welfare.

61

And so it was helpful to have

him on that that call as well.

62

And we, we definitely put our heads

together and got this affidavit.

63

So, if you're good with it, I'll just

start with the affidavit that was written

64

and we can break that down and then go

through any like kind of the process of

65

once we started removing dogs and stuff.

66

So.

67

DrG: Sounds great.

68

And for anybody that's listening that

doesn't know what an affidavit is.

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Can you explain that to them?

70

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah.

71

So I think the best way to say

it's like a legal document or

72

a probable cause statement.

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It's a report written that will basically

cover all the facts of the case that.

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you're working on.

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And so it's the grounds or the

probable cause you are trying

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to articulate to the judge.

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So when I submit an affidavit to

the judge, I submit that along with

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a search warrant telling the judge

this is what we're looking to seize.

79

And then they either approve it

or deny it based on the affidavit

80

based on the facts that support

why you're asking for the warrant.

81

DrG: Fantastic.

82

Well, let's hear it.

83

Let's see what you

84

Daniel Ettinger: got.

85

All right.

86

Here we go.

87

Hoodies up for those that are, well,

I guess this isn't on TV, so they

88

can't see me, but I'm now ready to go.

89

So, oh, the way that I write, uh,

which to me is really important is I,

90

I write in a chronological timeline

because I really want to paint

91

the picture from start to finish.

92

Versus jumping around start like,

because some will start with where

93

their involvement was in the beginning

and then they'll go backwards.

94

I'd like to start from the, the

moment where I feel that contact

95

was made and is important to all

the way to where we pretty much end.

96

So.

97

This is gonna start on April 19th, 2014.

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Denver Animal Protection received a

complaint for a welfare check at South

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Irving Street, Denver, Colorado for 18

French Bulldog type dogs inside the home.

100

Denver Animal Protection Officer

Jay Lapointe met with Miss Marlene

101

Pusek, but was unable to enter the

home due to do a welfare check.

102

Miss Puzak claimed ownership of four

French Bulldogs and stated she was

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watching a fifth dog for a friend.

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The fifth dog was a Dachshund type dog.

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Officer LaPointe issued Administrative

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of rabies vaccination required

and Denver City License required.

107

As of 7 6 2017, that Administrative

Citation was in collections, meaning

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that it wasn't paid or complied with.

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On July 29, 2015, Denver Animal

Protection received another

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complaint for 18 dogs living on the

property in terrible conditions.

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According to the reporting party, Denver

Animal Protection Officer Katie Kirk

112

and Officer Jay Lapointe noted a strong

smell of feces coming from the property.

113

A door hanger was posted for contact.

114

Miss Puzak called and spoke

with Officer Lapointe.

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Miss Puzak stated that she was a

foster home for my fairy dog mother

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to rescue, and there were only 10

dogs on the property at the time.

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Miss Pusek would not allow officers

to do a welfare check on the home,

118

and the case was closed at that time.

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On July 3rd, 2017, Denver Animal

Protection received a complaint

120

for 15 dogs living at 2125 South

Irving Street for a welfare check.

121

Officer Daniel Ettinger and Officer

Salvador Aguirre arrived at the home

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on July 6th, 2017 at approximately 2.

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21pm.

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Upon arrival, both officers could smell

feces and urine from approximately eight

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feet from the front door, Officer Ettinger

opened the front screen door and noticed

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a stronger odor of feces and urine.

127

He also saw what appeared to

be dried smear feces on the

128

front steps going into the home.

129

There are approximately

six pairs of women's shoes.

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On the front porch with what

appeared to be feces on them.

131

Officer Daniel Ettinger could hear

what appeared to be a television

132

or radio inside the home.

133

He knocked on the door and heard

multiple dogs barking inside.

134

He was unable to tell how many dogs were

inside the home, but it appeared there

135

were dogs barking from multiple rooms.

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All of the windows in the front of

the home had cardboard type material

137

covering any view inside of the home.

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Officer Ettinger spoke with Ms.

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Nikki Gwynne, who owns My

Fairy Dog Mother Rescue.

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Ms.

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Gwynne stated that she

had not worked with Ms.

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Puzak for approximately two years.

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She claimed that Ms.

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Puzak also worked with three other

dog rescues in the area, but was not

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sure of the names of those rescues.

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On July 7th, 2017, I, officer Daniel

Ettinger spoke to the reporting party, Ms.

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Angela Angeline Lito, who stated she

is friends with the dog owner, Ms.

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Puzak.

149

She stated that she meets Ms.

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Puzak often at the dog park, but Ms.

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Puzak will not let Ms.

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Lito or anyone in the house.

153

Ms.

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Lito stated that she and Ms.

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Puzak bought two French Bulldog puppies

and littermates at the same time.

156

Ms.

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Lito stated that she met with Ms.

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Puzak at a dog park in Englewood

159

Puzak had the French Bulldog puppy,

and a tan, intact male French bulldog.

160

Ms.

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Lito stated that the puppy had red feet

and they were swollen, and she also

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stated the puppy's testicles were bright

red and he smelled of urine and feces.

163

She stated that her puppy

from the SLA same litter, did

164

not have any of those issues.

165

She stated that tan French Bulldog

appeared to be underweight.

166

Ms.

167

Lito stated that she met with Ms.

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Puzak approximately two weeks ago

at the Chatfield Reservoir Dog Park.

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According to Ms.

170

Lito, Ms.

171

Puzak had a nine year old female

French bulldog, brown brindle

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in color, and a ten month old

intact male white French bulldog.

173

Ms.

174

Lito stated both dogs had urine stains on

them and were missing fur on their legs.

175

Ms.

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Lito mentioned every time she met with Ms.

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Puzak, she smelled of urine and feces.

178

She stated that the vehicle she drived,

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drived?

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Vehicle she drove also

smelled of urine and feces.

181

Based on the smell emanating and

the statements made by Ms.

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Leto, I have reason to believe

through my training and experience

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there are multiple animals living in

unsanitary and unhealthy conditions.

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I have investigated multiple cases

with similar evidence and have

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found animals in need of immediate

veterinary treatment due to poor health.

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So that was the statement submitted to

the courts with the request to impound

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and I'll tell you what we put their items

to be seized were any and all animals

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that appeared to be sick, injured, living

in unsanitary conditions or an otherwise

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poor health or any dead or unborn animals.

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Any photographs taken during the

execution of the search of the property.

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And then we searched the

whole the whole house.

192

DrG: That's one of the things that is

really important because I've been talking

193

to ACOs and Humane Officers recently

about what needs to be and what doesn't

194

need to be on a search warrant, right?

195

So I've seen people that do not

include enough things in a search

196

warrant, and then that can have the

The problem of things being eliminated

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from being able to be evidence.

198

So can you talk about, you know, what

should be and shouldn't be included?

199

And why?

200

Daniel Ettinger: So, I mean, it starts

with when we're doing an investigation

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for animals, you want to have dead and

unborn for a multitude of reasons, right?

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If you just put any living animal.

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Right?

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Then it limits your scope to

any animals that is alive.

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So if you find dead animals on

the property, you may not be

206

able to seize them based on how

your search warrant was written.

207

And if you did, that could

jeopardize your case.

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That evidence that was seized could

be dismissed and the whole case

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could potentially even be dismissed.

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So I like to add dead and then unborn

because if you're impounding an animal

211

that is pregnant and they have who will

A litter in your, in your care, right?

212

You, you didn't have the, the

right to seize that animal.

213

So you want to make sure

that you add that as well.

214

And then the, the aspect now, some

people listening may say, like, well,

215

you don't really need to put photographs

or videos taken while on scene or

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while you're executing the warrant.

217

That was.

218

That information was told to me

by our defense attorney, excuse

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me, our district attorney.

220

The district attorney said that it was

important to add that just so there's

221

no complications with any of the photos

that you take while you're on scene

222

or any videos that you take while

you're on scene, though you may wear

223

a body camera, those type of things.

224

It's just important to have

that extra element in there.

225

DrG: Yeah, one of the things

that I have seen as well.

226

I'm currently taking animal law classes

at Lewis and Clark, and we're discussing

227

about the things that kind of need to

be and not to be and and the things

228

that defense attorneys can go after.

229

And it's things as simple

as blood draws, right?

230

Things as simple as being able to take

items from the from the environment,

231

that if you do not include those kind

of things on your warrant, then they

232

can say, well, You know, This animal.

233

Yeah, you took you have a warrant

for this animal, but you don't have

234

a warrant to examine said animal.

235

So then you cannot really do

anything about it because they're

236

considered property and anything

inside of that animal is considered

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the property of the client.

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Daniel Ettinger: And I know there

was a case out of Oregon, and I wish

239

I had had that available where there

was a blood drawn done on a dog,

240

and it was argued that it was, it

was done illegally and then I think

241

it was taken to the Supreme Court,

and maybe it was, it was overturned.

242

It was overturned, right?

243

Yeah.

244

So, um, but it's like, here's the thing

that I say with warrants and affidavits

245

and such, like, you can't really

include you can't over include things.

246

Just put it in there.

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Like, the, the worst case is that

you're just not going to use that

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information that you that you ask.

249

And so, okay.

250

And then some of the areas to

be searched, you have to put

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above and below ground, right?

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Because if there's clandestine graves,

you have to make sure that you have.

253

Okay.

254

The ability to to dig those up

and then exhume the bodies, right?

255

That's really important.

256

And then areas inside the home where

really, if you're looking for the

257

animal itself, like anywhere that

a small dog can be housed, which

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is literally pretty much anywhere.

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Cabinets, cupboards, right?

260

I mean, that's reasonable that

some hoarder may put a dead body in

261

there or something in that nature.

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And in fact, we had dead

bodies in that house.

263

And then the other part of it, too, is

if you're if you're looking for records

264

to establish ownership, then you might

expand that area to be searched to

265

filing cabinets, or even documents on

computers to verify ownership and such.

266

So, you kind of have to think

large scale in that aspect.

267

DrG: Yeah, absolutely.

268

Yeah, that case.

269

Where the blood evidence was trying to

be excluded and and it was excluded from

270

the regular trial and it had to go to

a higher court, but it was because they

271

were saying about how, you know, yeah,

you can have a warrant for somebody's

272

purse, but it doesn't mean that

you can open the purse so they were

273

thinking about the animals property.

274

So it's like, well, you have a warrant

for the animal, but you don't have an a

275

warrant for what's inside of the animal.

276

But realistically, the way that they

that they won to start, as I understand,

277

is that they they proved that the

blood tests on the animal were done.

278

to provide medical care for the dog.

279

So they were not doing it just to search.

280

They were doing it as part of

normal veterinary routine care.

281

And then by doing so, they found

out that yes, in fact, this

282

animal was being neglected and

was suffering from malnutrition.

283

So just word to anybody that's listening

that could potentially be in animal

284

control and humane officers, you know, you

just got to be really, really inclusive

285

in everything that you put in on a

warrant to make sure that you're covering

286

your butt and everything that you are

potentially going to take from the scene.

287

Daniel Ettinger: And then if you don't

have it, yeah, if you don't have it

288

included and there's something that

pops up while you're on scene, you

289

can always write an addendum and re

basically re, uh, get the warrant

290

reissued with the new, new information.

291

So that's important.

292

DrG: Yeah, it's just, you know, we're

there to protect all the evidence

293

and make sure that we have everything

that we need to provide a strong case.

294

So, it's, it starts with, with everything

that's in writing, all the permissions

295

that we have to go into, into a situation.

296

So, you write the warrant

and you take it to the court.

297

So, what did the judge, how

did it proceed from there?

298

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah, so it's, you

know, when, if you've never written

299

a warrant or been in that situation,

I think there's a stigma because

300

of like movies or television shows.

301

Like, the warrant just makes you seem

like you have all this power where sure,

302

like, you get to violate somebody's

4th amendment legally and go into

303

their property, but it's a big deal.

304

Like, there's.

305

A level of, you know, meeting with the our

city attorney or the district attorney,

306

whoever it may be discussing the facts

of the case, making sure that what we

307

put in the affidavit is accurate and we

have the experience and training that go

308

along with the statements that we make.

309

And then once the city attorney

approves it, or your district attorney,

310

then it's off to the judge and we.

311

You know, we talked to the judge, we,

we, you basically give the judge your

312

affidavit and then you're just quiet.

313

While the judge reads it, and then the

judge typically either asks 1 or 2 follow

314

up questions and then just basically

says, raise your raise your right hand.

315

And then you do swear under oath that what

you're saying is firm and true, et cetera.

316

And then once you get the warrant,

you coordinate with the police

317

department and say, hey, we're

going to go execute this warrant.

318

Now, you may have to schedule a

time where the police department's

319

available in this case.

320

I can't recall.

321

We might have just went

and then we called PD.

322

We're like, hey, we're going

to execute this warrant.

323

We get to the property knock on the door.

324

There's no answer.

325

And at the time.

326

Instead of like, busting down

the door, we thought it was more

327

appropriate to just call the owner

and say, hey, we're at your property.

328

We have a search warrant.

329

Are you able to come home and let us in?

330

So we don't ruin your property.

331

And she did agree to meet us.

332

It probably took her 20 minutes or so.

333

And that's when it just went bonkers.

334

DrG: When, when you get a warrant,

do you have a timeframe that you

335

have to execute said warrant?

336

Daniel Ettinger: There's a 10 day

period from when you obtain the

337

warrant to when it has to be issued.

338

And so you have that 10 day period from

the moment it's signed, uh, to execute.

339

DrG: So you get PD and you

show up, so, and she, she meets

340

you, so what happened then?

341

Daniel Ettinger: So she opens the door

and I have actually showed this video

342

in a class that I do for hoarding.

343

I still have some of the video of it

and greeted by about 6 or 7 French

344

bulldog types in the, in the living

room, just bark in, you know, there's

345

the overwhelming smell of what is feces.

346

You're in and just the initial thing is

to go in, document the scene as basically

347

as natural as it was before we entered.

348

So video and photograph

upon entry is essential.

349

So go in and start our video rolling as

we're taking photos and just basically

350

do a walk through and try to get a count.

351

So we have a better idea

of what we're dealing with.

352

And so.

353

The main room, the living room had

loose dogs and then a couple of

354

dogs in kennels off of the main

room to the south of the house.

355

Like, if you're, if we're doing

direction wise, the south side of the

356

house had like a laundry room with

kennels on a table, double stacked.

357

So there were probably 8 kennels in that

room with, I would say, 10 to 12 dogs

358

because there were multiple dogs in some

of the kennels, they were wire kennels.

359

And then to, uh, to, like, chest

freezers in that room as well, which

360

obviously I'm bringing it up for a

reason, but we'll come back to that.

361

Leaving that room, walking to

the north side of the property,

362

there was a room, a kitchen.

363

To the kitchen to the West,

and then like a kind of like

364

a mud room also to the West.

365

And so there were a few candles

in that mud room off of the

366

kitchen and not to mention this.

367

The floors are pretty much covered

in feces and the dogs have diarrhea

368

throughout all of their kennels.

369

It's pretty egregious

as far as all that goes.

370

So walk back towards the living room

and then there's a bathroom on the.

371

North side of the property.

372

And then from there, there's a bedroom

and then another there's two bedrooms.

373

One bedroom had multiple kennels in

there probably over 10 or 15, maybe

374

even closer to 20 dogs in that room.

375

And then there was one other bedroom

that appeared to be the primary.

376

And that had loose dogs in there.

377

There were probably four loose

or so, uh, in that room as well.

378

And so we, we, we gather our thoughts,

we go back outside, uh, we coordinate

379

with our other officers that were

on duty that day, and, and then we

380

started the impoundment process, uh,

after our first initial walkthrough.

381

DrG: So a little bit over 30 dogs or

so that you guys found altogether,

382

does that sound about right?

383

Daniel Ettinger: So the live dogs, there

were 37 total, and I believe there were

384

37, and then there were 12 deceased dogs,

uh, in the freezers inside the property.

385

DrG: One of the things that I try

to tell when I'm, when I'm talking

386

about how to proceed into crime

scenes is about the importance of,

387

um, Of planning and staging, right?

388

So we go in and as you said, you know,

you do a walkthrough and you check

389

everything out and you cannot take

animals, even if you think that they're

390

in danger, they're in hurt or whatever.

391

We have to think about the

fact that they are evidence.

392

So you have to go out and then figure

out from there where you're going to go.

393

So, so you go out, you talk about it.

394

How did it proceed from that point?

395

Daniel Ettinger: Well, and I think, as

you say, like, as you know, earlier in

396

my career, I think I'm fueled by, like,

excitement and fueled by anxiety and just

397

wanting to get those animals out of there.

398

And so we didn't go about it the

right way, though, we were pretty

399

successful with what we did.

400

I think the better approach would

have been once we got the search

401

warrant to reconvene with leadership.

402

To have a discussion, basically

brief ourselves on the case and come

403

up with a coordinated game plan.

404

And we did not do that.

405

That was an oversight on my

behalf and, you know, I learned

406

from it in some aspects.

407

And I think that, like, as we coordinate

future activities, it was, it was a,

408

you know, a good, a good planning or

a good opportunity to plan around.

409

Around this.

410

So basically, we called the

other officer that was on duty.

411

So there were 3 of us total.

412

Um, and then 1 person covering

dispatch for the night.

413

That was also an officer helping

us with some of the clerical

414

and administrative work.

415

But again, like, we talked about earlier,

there were 10 days to really execute

416

this, and she had no idea it was coming.

417

And so I think hindsight

418

I would have loved to have.

419

Gone about it differently, just because

it would have made our process smoother.

420

It was pretty easy as a process.

421

We, we were able to, uh, basically

start with the loose dogs and

422

just load those on the trucks.

423

Right?

424

We were able to get Marlene to

actually identify each dog, which was

425

really impressive on a hoarding case

that she knew each animal's names.

426

There were maybe one, two or so that

she kind of struggled with at first.

427

And then she's like, no, that one is.

428

Whatever, whatever the name was,

that was pretty impressive by her.

429

And so we started with the loose ones,

uh, you know, got account for those

430

and then started with the ones we would

just go room by room were the ones that

431

were in kennels and just bring those

out and try to document each each 1.

432

And we, you know, we would document.

433

So once we started to clear rooms

and finally cleared the house, we

434

went back in and then documented

the house post post impoundment to

435

just show kind of the aftermath.

436

And you have to think too.

437

I talked about there

being feces everywhere.

438

The dogs tested positive

for Giardia, right?

439

So now you have a zoonotic that we

could be, uh, we didn't know at the time

440

that it was Giardia, but we found out

later, and thankfully none of us got it.

441

DrG: And was she pretty cooperative during

the whole thing, or was she, um, you

442

know, resentful or aggressive about the

fact that you were there for the dogs?

443

Daniel Ettinger: You know, she was not

aggressive, she was More just in a state

444

of like shock more in a state of like,

she can't believe that it was happening.

445

There was a moment where we were

running dogs back to the shelter.

446

And thankfully, it was

only like a 15 minutes.

447

Drive, um, so as we were transferring

animals back, the cop that there was only

448

1 police officer assigned to it and he

was sitting there with her, you know,

449

holding the scene, and there was a moment

where she wanted to go use the restroom.

450

And he asked, he called me like,

hey, can she go use the restroom?

451

And I was like, she can, I was like,

just I'd be mindful of her mental state.

452

Like, if you think that she's a

threat to herself, you know, the.

453

That might not be the best idea.

454

Like she might have something

in her bathroom that she could

455

take or she could do to herself.

456

Like if, you know, the police department

was really close, so I, I offered that

457

as an option, like, Hey, you know, if

she really does have to go, maybe offer

458

her that instead of, um, putting her

in a room by herself, because if you

459

think about it, like her whole life.

460

Is just crashing down, right?

461

Like everything that was her normal and

her reality, um, just came to a halt.

462

And that's tough.

463

Like, we, we definitely, we

sometimes lose sight that we

464

have that much impact on people.

465

Um, good and bad.

466

And in that situation for her, I

mean, obviously it was good for

467

the animals, but it was probably

bad for her to normalcy right now.

468

Thankfully, I think she got some

of the help that was required and

469

we can get into some of that later.

470

But it can be difficult for people.

471

DrG: Yeah, one of my big interest in

forensic psychology is hoarding, because

472

I think that, you know, there's, there

are different types of hoarders, and there

473

are people that kind of fall into hoarding

because they can't help themselves, and

474

there are people that fall into hoarding

for the wrong reasons, like Like,

475

puppy millers and that kind of stuff.

476

But, we have to go into these

situations for the animals, but

477

we have to also be a little open

minded about the human side of it.

478

Because not all of these hoarders

are criminals, um, per se.

479

Like, I mean, they're committing a crime.

480

They're committing animal

cruelty and neglect.

481

But, they're, you know, some of

them need help, need mental health.

482

And yeah, I wanna, I wanna get into that.

483

Once we get through all of this stuff,

because I think that's really, really

484

important to this case, but you had

mentioned something about some freezers.

485

So what did you find in said freezers?

486

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah, and before

I lose sight of it, we'll talk

487

of, like you mentioned, there are,

there are 3 types of hoarders.

488

Um, you have your exploiter, your

rescuer, and your overwhelmed

489

caregiver as we break them down.

490

Um, but you can be more than 1, and

I think she was more than 1, and so

491

we'll get into that here in a bit.

492

Uh, in the freezers, there

were 12 deceased dogs, uh,

493

packaged in plastic bags.

494

And she At first, when I asked her

what was in the freezers before even

495

opening them, uh, she claimed that she

didn't know or no, that's not true.

496

I opened the freezer and I saw

the dogs and I went out there and

497

asked her how many are in there.

498

And, uh, I think she said like eight

at first and there ended up being 12.

499

So that was the moment for me that it

kind of clicked that this situation,

500

like Granted, the situation was bad

from the get go, but once the, once

501

the deceased dogs were discovered,

that was really like that whoa moment.

502

DrG: And were they, were they puppies?

503

Were they adults?

504

Was that a combination of?

505

Daniel Ettinger: When we, when we, I

remember when we opened them up and

506

documented them at the shelter, they

all look to be adult, adult type dogs.

507

So they may have, you know,

died of natural causes.

508

How hard is it to do a

necropsy on a frozen dog?

509

DrG: One of the problems with, with

having a frozen dog is the fact that

510

you cannot tell time of death, right?

511

Because you are stopping all

of the changes that happen

512

once time of death occurs.

513

But freezing animals actually helps

preserve the cause of death.

514

So if, if they died and she

froze them immediately, that

515

actually can help the pathologist.

516

evaluate the likely causes of death for

those animals as opposed to if they had

517

been buried, if they had been allowed to

go through a whole decomposition stage.

518

Daniel Ettinger: Got it.

519

Okay.

520

Good info.

521

DrG: So what happened, uh, after that

point, like, so you have her, did she,

522

was she taken into custody at that

time or how did that process work out?

523

Daniel Ettinger: She was, I'm

pretty sure they took her in to

524

do a mental health hold so police

officers can make that determination.

525

And she was, she was taken

into custody and charges were

526

later filed for the hoarding.

527

It wasn't filed immediately.

528

Uh, it was filed later

on by a police detective.

529

That's just how the Denver city operates.

530

And so any, any type of felony or

misdemeanor had to be written by

531

a sworn police officer in Denver

532

DrG: Did anybody evaluate the dead

dogs and figure out what they died of.

533

Daniel Ettinger: We did, we said,

I don't think we sent all 12.

534

I don't think we sent all 12 for

necropsies, but we did send a few

535

to the state laboratory, Colorado

state actually has a necropsy lab.

536

We sent them there.

537

And I can't recall the cause

of death, but it may have been

538

just, you know, due to age.

539

DrG: What were the conditions of

the dogs that were alive as far

540

as, you know, their overall health?

541

Daniel Ettinger: You know, outside of

their coats being extremely unkempt,

542

they were actually in pretty good shape.

543

Like, Body condition

score was pretty good.

544

I don't recall having a dog that was

anything lower than probably a four.

545

I mean, there may have been a three.

546

Nothing sticks out to me that

there was in the case, though, I

547

think they were all outside of the

Giardia and outside of their coats.

548

In that condition, they were okay.

549

I think they did find some things

when they did some exploratory

550

surgery, but nothing that was,

like, pretty apparent to us.

551

DrG: So what was she

ultimately charged with?

552

Daniel Ettinger: So she was

charged initially with felony

553

animal cruelty due to the dead

dogs being found in the freezer.

554

And then the case was reduced down

to some misdemeanor animal cruelty.

555

DrG: And that would be just for the, the,

the live dogs that were living in filth?

556

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah, and I

think, like, ultimately too

557

is, like, showing some grace.

558

Or mercy in these situations,

like, do we really need to charge

559

her for 35 counts or 37 counts?

560

Whatever it may be.

561

Right?

562

Like, the idea you kind of talked about

it understanding the psyche of animal

563

hoarders, like, we want to make sure that

we're getting the right type of justice.

564

So, if this goes to goes to a

jury trial, and the jury sees

565

that, okay, there were 35 dogs.

566

But we only charged six

counts of misdemeanor cruelty.

567

And then are, you know,

like, that looks reasonable.

568

And we can explain why we only

charge six counts in that case.

569

Right?

570

So, like, we're not overdoing it though.

571

I would argue that 35 counts would

have been appropriate because all

572

those dogs were being neglected.

573

DrG: People get really worked up

because this are emotional cases, right?

574

There are animals that are suffering

and people start getting like, you

575

know Eye for an eye and let's burn

them and let's starve them and let's

576

do to them what they did to these dogs

And a lot of people don't realize that

577

this is a mental health disease like

true hoarding Is actually in the DSM

578

manual for mental health disorders.

579

Uh, so we can, I guess, talk a little bit

about the, like you brought up already

580

about the different types of hoarders.

581

Do you want to go ahead and talk

about the different types of

582

hoarders and kind of where, um, Ms.

583

Puzak falls in inside of that?

584

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah, I mean, when you

look at we'll start with the exploiter.

585

So typically an exploiter

hoarder, I like to say, like.

586

The easiest way to describe an exploiter

would be like, maybe a puppy mill, right?

587

Somebody who has an abundance of animals,

the living conditions are not great.

588

Right?

589

And their whole goal is to really use

that animal to, you know, make money

590

from and in that situation, right?

591

An exploiter may be really difficult

to work with in the aspects of, like.

592

Of getting them to comply and I

don't think this is my personally

593

personal professional opinion.

594

I don't think we should be giving

any hoarder a break and being like,

595

just clean it up because the reality

is they're just going to reoffend.

596

Like, that is, that is science, I guess,

or data, data supported hoarders will

597

reoffend without any intervention.

598

And so you start with

your exploiters, right?

599

And then you're the overwhelmed

caregiver may be like.

600

They didn't intend to have all

these puppies or cats, right?

601

Maybe they had 2 cats, 2 or 3 cats or

2 or 3 dogs and never got them fixed.

602

And then they started to reproduce

in the home and they don't want

603

to give them away or just don't

have the ability to to understand

604

that they need to give them away.

605

And they just start accruing do

through, like, through their own.

606

Inability to spay or neuter.

607

So over a longer period of time, they

become overwhelmed with all these animals.

608

And then you have your

rescue hoarders that really.

609

Look for animals in certain ways,

because they don't think that

610

anybody else can care for them.

611

That's the way that they can and they

don't trust animal shelters or they don't

612

trust other other rescues because they

believe that again, they're the only ones

613

that can provide the care that they need.

614

And so, as you look at those 3 kind

of from an overview perspective,

615

it was in my opinion that Marlene.

616

Was kind of all three in some aspects.

617

If you understand the case, she was

an exploiter from the aspects of,

618

uh, people entrusted her with these

French bulldogs to show at AKC dog show

619

events so they could earn, you know,

Earn awards placements in order to

620

sell their puppies at a higher cost.

621

Right?

622

So when you have that now, I don't

have any evidence of that there.

623

We didn't dig that deep.

624

But from what I understood of the

case, I knew that she did have

625

some dogs from known breeders

and then you have your rescuer,

626

which I think was her main Avenue.

627

I think she.

628

Truly felt like she was the only one that

could care for these French bulldogs.

629

And in fact, she was infatuated with

French bulldogs, every single photo.

630

And there were multiple pieces

of artwork and photos throughout

631

her house were French bulldogs.

632

So that was really interesting.

633

And, and then she was overwhelmed.

634

She wasn't able to provide

the care necessary.

635

to one person care for 35 live animals.

636

It's almost impossible.

637

Live dogs with Giardia.

638

So I actually think in some cases you

can have someone that is just one.

639

But I really think the main two

were overwhelmed and rescuer.

640

And then she had a little

element of the exploiter as well.

641

DrG: And I have seen cases

that that do cross over.

642

Um, I worked a case in Athens County

where the woman was a rescue hoarder.

643

She did not want to give the animals

to anybody because she thought that she

644

was the best to care for them, but she

was also breeding them and selling them.

645

So she had a little bit of that

exploiter hoarder and that she

646

was selling them to make money.

647

However, she also, the, the adults,

she did not want to relinquish them

648

because she thought that she was the

only one to, to take care of them.

649

So, you know, I think that there's a lot

of, of research and studies still needed.

650

For hoarders, because as I mentioned,

I mean, they, they will, they will

651

reoffend because currently I don't

know how, you know, exactly how the

652

laws are in other states, but here in

Ohio, it's not, it's not very strong.

653

So mental health evaluations

are not required.

654

They're up to the judge if they want

to do it or not, and I don't think that

655

they're even followed very properly.

656

So, you take somebody like that, and you

give them fees and fines, and maybe you

657

give them 30 days in jail or whatever,

which usually gets suspended anyway,

658

and There, there's nothing being done

to keep them from doing it again, right?

659

It's, it's a mental health disease.

660

You don't take somebody that has any

other kind of mental health disease and

661

you, you know, lock them up for 30 days

and then say, okay, you're schizophrenic.

662

We're going to put you in jail for

30 days and then you're going to

663

come out and you're not going to

be schizophrenic anymore, right?

664

That's not how that works.

665

It's like, we have to, we have to figure

out how to, how to work with this.

666

So, in, in her case, she was mandated

mental health evaluation though, right?

667

And, uh, what, what came

about from all of that?

668

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah, so in Colorado,

upon sentencing, so upon any guilty or

669

plea agreement for animal cruelty or

neglect, The mental health evaluation is

670

it's actually required per state statute.

671

However, though it's required, it doesn't

mean that it's actually getting done.

672

Right?

673

Which is interesting.

674

I actually was an expert witness on a

case and I mentioned that to the defense.

675

That they, you know, because

of X, Y, and Z, uh, mental

676

health evaluation was required.

677

And that was, uh, it was, it just

was interesting how that all went.

678

I'll just leave that there.

679

But, um, with Marlene, what

I believe the outcome was.

680

If I can recall correctly,

she took a plea agreement.

681

For 2 years of, I think, probation with

mental health treatment and evaluate

682

or evaluation and treatment and then no

animal ownership for that 2 year period.

683

And then she also was required to

allow for and basically what we

684

would call a 4th amendment waiver.

685

So she allowed animal control or law

enforcement to enter her house during

686

any normal kind of timeframe, like,

not 2 in the morning, but maybe, you

687

know, 4 in the afternoon on a Saturday.

688

She wouldn't know, but we would come

and do an inspection to ensure that

689

she did not have any animals or she

was not violating the court order.

690

DrG: And that's, I mean, I just think

that that is super important, right?

691

Because, again, it's kind of, we

want to, we already took care of

692

the animals that were suffering.

693

And that we're trying to prevent issues

with future animals, but in the end,

694

also, we're trying to help her because

that's where, where it all lies.

695

If we don't help her with her

condition, with her potential possible

696

mental health condition, then we're

not really doing anything, right?

697

Daniel Ettinger: Correct.

698

Correct.

699

DrG: So, um, I have been, I have

been creeping on her, and from what

700

I have seen, it looks like she has

been somewhat staying out of trouble.

701

It doesn't look like she's

been having any issues.

702

So it makes me feel hopeful about the

fact that mental health evaluations

703

and treatments can be the, the answer

to recidivism in hoarding cases.

704

Daniel Ettinger: So, I'll

take it 1 step forward.

705

I actually reached out to Marlene,

probably 3 months ago, 2 months

706

ago, and I said, hey, like, 1st, I,

you know, I kind of really took a,

707

I think a compassionate approach.

708

I mean, she was very, polite to

her responses, but I just said,

709

Hey, Marlene, my name is Daniel.

710

I was the officer who, um,

711

took your dog that day.

712

I don't know how I said it, but,

you know, um, but I was wondering if

713

you'd be open or willing to tell your

side of the story on our podcast.

714

And we went back and forth with a

few, you know, Q and a, uh, and she

715

basically said she'd think about it.

716

And I just, I dropped it there.

717

I didn't, um, I haven't, I

haven't heard from her since.

718

And I haven't, I'm not

going to reach back out.

719

I'm going to, you know, if

she's interested, she'll tell

720

us that she's interested.

721

But I think that would be such a neat case

study to hear it from her view viewpoint

722

and not that we want to make fun of her

or exploit her or anything like that.

723

I just want her to have an opportunity

to tell her side of the story because

724

I'm sure it's going to be different

from from our side of the story

725

and to give her that that platform.

726

So that was that was

interesting to do that.

727

I thought about it for a while

before I even messaged her.

728

To be honest, I thought about it.

729

And then I said, you know, let

me see if she's on social media.

730

She was and she responded pretty

quickly and everything was,

731

was pretty cool in that regard.

732

But as I mentioned, we left it at that.

733

DrG: Yeah, I'm sure that

it's I mean, it's got to be.

734

a dark time for her, especially if

she has moved on and been able to,

735

to get her life together and stuff.

736

It's gotta be somewhat difficult to

go back to that, but I think it would

737

be great for her to tell her story,

especially if she, if she is no longer

738

finding that urge to hoard animals,

because so much can be learned from that.

739

You know, again, I'm a,

I'm a big proponent of.

740

Uh, I say fees and fines in jail if

somebody is actually committing animal

741

cruelty, if somebody is an animal.

742

However, in these cases of animal

hoarding, there's so much to be

743

done to help these individuals.

744

Because I just see case after case

after case that three months, six

745

months later, they're back to hoarding.

746

And having a case where we can say,

you know, this person was in this

747

trouble, this is what happened.

748

This is how it was addressed and look

where she's at, like she's the 1%.

749

If she is rehabilitated, she's

the 1 percent because from the

750

statistics, it's 99 percent recidivism.

751

It would be amazing to

hear from her, kind of

752

how things worked out.

753

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah, maybe she

can be also like a mentor for

754

others who are dealing with that.

755

And she, you know, she

can potentially help them.

756

.

DrG: Another kind of side thing of this is you mentioned about the, you know,

757

she was training and that kind of stuff.

758

So I know that there were some

individuals that came up and said that.

759

Some of those dogs were not hers, that

they actually gave her the dogs for her

760

to board and train and show for them.

761

So what was the, what

was the deal with those?

762

Daniel Ettinger: Before we even get to

that, I think it's important to know that

763

like it was, it was an interesting thing.

764

So we elected to do an adoption event

of these dogs in the same city and

765

community where we took them from,

and that was an extreme just mistake.

766

A huge mistake.

767

Uh, I'm all for getting animals out

of a bad situation, and I'm all for

768

trying to get animals from a bad

situation into a good situation, but

769

I think there's a level of compassion

and courtesy to not turn around

770

and push somebody's face into it.

771

While you're like, basically saying,

you can't have these animals, but

772

we're going to give them to all these

other people and then promote it.

773

I think the appropriate thing

to do there would have been to,

774

they're French bulldogs, bro.

775

Like, you could have worked with any

rescue group throughout the country

776

and they would have taken them, right?

777

Right.

778

And so, I thought that was a

little greedy and selfish of us.

779

At that time to do that, and it backfired.

780

It backfired because now once we

promoted it, all these alleged owners

781

came out of everywhere saying, well,

wait, we only gave her that dog to show.

782

We didn't give her that dog to keep right.

783

And so unfortunately for us at that time.

784

We already did some exploratory

surgeries and spaying and

785

neutering and people were livid.

786

DrG: Yeah.

787

That's what I saw is that some

of these people were complaining.

788

There were from what, from the

news that I saw that I read, it

789

said that there were four owners.

790

uh, suing over about 10 dogs saying

that they were spayed and neutered.

791

And then, so those dogs were no

longer valuable to them because

792

they were supposed to be shown and

bred and, you know, puppies sold.

793

And then they said that there were

unnecessary and experimental quote

794

unquote procedures, which some of

the procedures, as I looked at it, it

795

was nares resection for some of these

dogs, which It is a known problem with

796

French bulldogs that they can't breathe

because their nose are just shut down.

797

Um, so it's not really

unnecessary and experimental.

798

That seemed to be a little bit of

a reach by the defense attorneys.

799

But just overall, the fact that

they were, they were complaining

800

about, you know, yeah, these are

our dogs, these are our proof of

801

ownership, and we want our dogs back.

802

And then that kind of held these

poor dogs in some legal limbo.

803

Daniel Ettinger: It did.

804

And, you know, I wish I had

more information on that case.

805

Once it went to a lawsuit against the

department that really resided with

806

the director and then some of the

executives within the Department of

807

Public Health and some of the attorneys.

808

So we weren't privy to what

was going on at that point.

809

Uh, we just, you know, pretty

much once the case was brought

810

back and we brought the animals in

and did all of our documentation

811

in case prep, the case was then.

812

We were done with it.

813

So

814

DrG: Yeah, just really important,

you know, to for for everybody,

815

including shelters and rescues to

understand kind of what the laws are.

816

And then what, what due process is trying

to figure out who these animals belong to

817

and everything because I saw, you know,

from, from you guys standpoint, it looked

818

like everything that was done properly.

819

As far as the animals were taken from her

house, she surrendered all the animals.

820

So everything up to that

point was done correctly.

821

So after that, it was just, it was just

kind of paperwork, a paperwork disaster.

822

It looks like that held these dogs

from being able to find their homes.

823

Daniel Ettinger: It was and, if there

was ever a point where ownership

824

was questioned, like she just, let's

say like when we were talking to

825

her and establishing ownership, I

mean, like as mentioned, she knew

826

every single name of those dogs,

but if she knew it at one point said

827

like, you know, this one belongs to.

828

Whoever Luann Strickland, and that's

actually another hoarding case.

829

That's crazy that I brought that up.

830

We can talk about that one day.

831

She had over 400 animals.

832

It's a wild case in Colorado.

833

Um, anyway, um, yeah, you

can Google Luann Strickland.

834

That's a, but let's say

she did say that they.

835

Belong to somebody else.

836

We would have paused, right?

837

We would have said like,

okay, let's investigate that.

838

No.

839

Oh, here's here's what's crazy, too.

840

I remember this.

841

So some of those animals had microchips

and when we, when we ran them, none

842

of them are registered and then after

they made these allegations that

843

they were theirs, they went back in

and changed the microchip to match

844

the owner or the alleged owner.

845

So it's kind of kind of sneaky

stuff that they were doing.

846

DrG: Yeah, I saw that because I

thought, you know, they were saying

847

like, Oh yeah, it was her microchips.

848

Clearly it's our dogs and no, we

didn't, we didn't register until

849

after the fact because we forgot.

850

No, like most breeders like

that will microchip their dogs.

851

As soon as, you know, they're

old enough to get microchip.

852

So, just the fact that they

were microchip doesn't mean

853

that they were their property.

854

It just means that they were a dog.

855

That one of the, one of the people also

said, Yeah, we have genetic testing that

856

can show that that dog is from our litter.

857

Right, but you could have sold the dog.

858

You could have given the dog away.

859

That doesn't really mean

that you own these dogs.

860

Right.

861

I like, uh, something about possession

being nine tenths of the law.

862

These people are saying, uh, this

is my dog and I love my dog and I.

863

You know, cared for my dog but from what I

read, a lot of these people said, well, I

864

met her but I never saw where she was at.

865

Like, they did not do their due

diligence in making sure where

866

these dogs were gonna be kept at.

867

Like, they were just looking at the

dogs being trained and shown and then

868

Making profit off them and their babies.

869

Daniel Ettinger: Yeah, so, I mean,

I was, it was a really interesting

870

case from the aspects of, like, all

the different elements that it met.

871

It was, um, it was a great learning

experience, something that I value

872

and, you know, I, I really think that

as we continue to move forward in this

873

profession, that we can share some

of these things and learn from it for

874

other, other officers and other agencies

throughout the country or world.

875

DrG: Nothing ever, ever

truly goes exactly to plan.

876

Uh, a lot of the cases that I work

with, especially with like national

877

organizations and stuff, they're like,

this is our plan A, and then this is

878

our plan B, C, D, E, and F, right?

879

Because you just never know what exactly

you're going to, you're going to find out.

880

Uh, but as long as we do

our best and learn from it.

881

then I think that there's,

there's something to be gained.

882

Daniel Ettinger: Absolutely.

883

Absolutely.

884

I would completely agree with that.

885

DrG: Is there anything else about

this case that you think that

886

we've missed or that we need to

bring up to educate our listeners?

887

Daniel Ettinger: I think it's

just important to, for me,

888

and to reiterate where I'm at.

889

Hindsight, obviously being 2020, like I

would not have Gone about it as quickly

890

as I did now, like, as I'm sitting now,

if I got a case presented that way, I

891

would do my due diligence and try to

really figure out the best approach.

892

Um, not that we did anything with you.

893

Yeah, yeah, I mean, absolutely.

894

Like, not that we did

anything wrong on day 1.

895

I mean, we were able to really document

the scene and get the animals and do

896

all the things, but I think we could

have just gone about it in a better way.

897

I mean, we still got the outcome that we.

898

Desired and that was the mental

health eval and treatment and you

899

know, the no animal ownership for a

period of time and certain things.

900

So, I mean, at the end, like the outcome

was still beneficial to the animals

901

and I think beneficial to miss Puzak

really, but I would have liked to have

902

gone into the case a little differently.

903

DrG: It's so important to, to plan

everything, um, you know, thoroughly

904

and from a, from a veterinarian

standpoint, I get so many cases that I

905

am asked to consult way after the fact

and it's like, well, if we had done

906

this different, that different, then

that would have built a better case.

907

And this case, you know, I, I

think that it was beneficial, the

908

fact that she was cooperative.

909

Because it could have gone

really, really wrong potentially.

910

Um, so, you know, just taking, taking

your time, you have 10 days, figuring

911

it out and, and taking your time.

912

Daniel Ettinger: Absolutely.

913

And one thing that I forgot to mention,

which is, well, it's specific to

914

Colorado, and it may be in other states

is Colorado has what's called a cost of

915

care statute, the cost of care paperwork.

916

So, the statute is part of the

animal cruelty, animal neglect

917

law, and it actually can extend

to dangerous animals as well.

918

I believe, wait a second, that

might be on the city level.

919

So don't quote me on

that on the state level.

920

It's a, it's part of the animal

cruelty or neglect on the city level.

921

Ours also went to any animal involved

in dangerous dog behavior too.

922

But the point of it is this, this

paperwork that's partly law basically

923

says that you, as the pet owner.

924

Animal owner have 10 days from the

impoundment to appeal the impoundment.

925

Or if you don't appeal the impoundment,

you have 10 days to pay what's

926

called the cost of care for 30 days.

927

So you have to pay that first 30 days

within 10 days if you fail to do either.

928

So if you fail to do the cost of

care, paperwork, or you fail to

929

do the appeal or pay the the fee.

930

The animal then becomes a property of

the city and I think she surrendered

931

all of them though, if I'm not mistaken.

932

So I don't think she even did the

paperwork, she just surrendered ownership.

933

DrG: Yeah, from what I read, it looks like

she surrendered them almost immediately.

934

Yeah.

935

And it makes you wonder what part

of that is the overwhelmed caregiver

936

thinking that I finally have some, you

know, I, it's no longer my problem.

937

It's not, it's no longer my issue, right?

938

Whereas a rescuer hoarder, I've

worked with, uh, in cases with

939

rescuer hoarders that they do not

give up ownership of those dogs

940

all the way up to the court date.

941

Because again, they think that they're the

only ones that take care of those dogs.

942

Whereas the overwhelmed

caregivers are, are like, Hey,

943

you have a place for them to go.

944

Fantastic.

945

Let's, let's get them out of here because

I can't take care of this anymore.

946

Daniel Ettinger: Totally.

947

Totally.

948

Also, I'm glad the listeners

can't see my face because my

949

knee, man, it's so much pain.

950

Um, I'm like rocking back and

forth and making weird faces.

951

So I appreciate you being

patient with me on this episode.

952

And I probably don't sound like my normal

self just because I've been so tired

953

lately, but I'm glad we could have.

954

I'm glad we could get this

this information out there.

955

DrG: No, I'm, I'm really glad that

you had this case to share with us

956

because again, I'm, I'm really into

animal hoarding and I think that we

957

need to do so much better for the

animals and for the, and for the people.

958

So thank you so very

much for sharing this.

959

And uh, I mean, before we leave,

how about you plug your cast, man?

960

Daniel Ettinger: So we are

myself and Ashley Bishop.

961

They are the hosts of the

animal control report.

962

The animal control report podcast

is available everywhere and

963

anywhere you listen to podcasts.

964

It's also some of the episodes,

not all, we're trying to get

965

more and more up on YouTube.

966

So we're doing video casts as well.

967

Uh, you can go to our

website, keep it humane.

968

com.

969

What else do we got going on?

970

The socials, the animal

control report on Facebook.

971

Keep it humane on Facebook

and Instagram as well.

972

So that's a good one to follow.

973

And yeah, that's kind of it.

974

DrG: Cool.

975

And we're all part of the

keep it humane network.

976

So even better,

977

Daniel Ettinger: even better.

978

Cool.

979

Thanks Dr.

980

G.

981

No

982

DrG: problem.

983

Thank you so much for,

for being here and for.

984

Uh, sharing this case again, I think that

it's a really great case forensic wise

985

from from all different perspectives.

986

So I really appreciate you and we'll

have to talk about that other hoarding

987

case with 400 plus animals at some point.

988

Daniel Ettinger: Well, let's

before you go, let's just tease it

989

because Lou Ann Strickland was the

wife of a Colorado state senator.

990

I believe he was either a senator or

representative and she was actually

991

very impactful in a couple of things

in legislation when it came to animals

992

in Colorado, but the, the dark side of

her is she had property out probably

993

about 45 minutes to an hour east of

Denver and this place was just, it was.

994

A nightmare and if you when you read about

it, when you Google it, you'll see they

995

eventually after years of dealing with

her, they eventually were able to get a

996

search warrant in conjunction with, like,

the state of Colorado, some of those

997

agencies and start to remove the dog.

998

So she since past, um, they were

both kind of elderly towards,

999

you know, towards some of the.

00:57:28,601 --> 00:57:33,111

I guess larger numbers of animals,

but that was a, that was definitely a

00:57:33,121 --> 00:57:36,261

rescuer and overwhelm caregiver for sure.

00:57:36,784 --> 00:57:40,714

DrG: Well, yeah, I definitely want to

talk about that in a future episode

00:57:40,794 --> 00:57:42,194

because that sounds , pretty wild.

00:57:42,954 --> 00:57:43,584

Oh, it's wild.

00:57:44,584 --> 00:57:44,894

Yeah.

00:57:45,794 --> 00:57:47,244

Well, thank you so much.

00:57:47,394 --> 00:57:48,454

Take care.

00:57:48,744 --> 00:57:49,544

Take care of that knee.

00:57:50,254 --> 00:57:51,374

And we appreciate you.

00:57:51,954 --> 00:57:54,564

And for everybody that's

listening, thank you for listening.

00:57:54,564 --> 00:57:55,334

Thank you for caring.

00:57:56,864 --> 00:57:57,714

Keep it humane, main.

00:57:59,014 --> 00:57:59,634

That's right.