In the second round of our TRB Conversations powered by EX.CO, I spoke to EX.CO CEO Tom Pachys about why the streaming landscape is even more chaotic than online advertising; Manas Mittal from Uber discussed why mobility advertising has become a new category; and Vayner Media executive Andrea Sullivan talked about why Gay Vaynerchuk’s group is expanding into professional development network, Vyve. 

Welcome to a special bonus episode of the Rebooting Show.

I'm Brian Morrisey.

This episode features highlights from, the TRB conversations

at CES that we just held.

it was a live podcast recording that we did in collaboration with EXCO

at their lovely suite in Las Vegas.

Thank you to Exco.

in the first conversation I spoke to Tom Pacas, the CEO of Exco, about how it

is adapting its monetization solutions, that were built for websites, to

the world of streaming and why Tom is skeptical about all the talk at CES

about Ag Agent advertising taking over.

It was good to hear some realism from Tom.

next I sat down with Manas Mittal from Uber, to discuss why mobility ads are,

a completely new context and also how they might change once inevitably ride

sharing, becomes mostly autonomous and finally, Andrea Sullivan of Vayner Media

spinoff vibe joins me to discuss why professional development needs to adapt.

Thank you again to EXCO for its support in making this program possible.

And thank you to everyone who came out for the live recording

and here's the conversations.

welcome to TRB conversations at CES Powered by Xco.

We are here in, the Xco bungalow suite.

I'm joined by Tom Pacas, the CEO of Xco.

Tom, thank you for having us.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you all for joining.

So we wanna talk, we're gonna have a series of of rapid fire conversations.

I wanted to have one with you about, about the year ahead, and I wanna talk about CTV

because you guys are kind of new to CTV.

We talked about a year ago actually.

Yeah.

About this.

And now it's about like 10% of your business, but you're forecasting

it to be quite a bit more.

What is the macro trend that you see happening when you're taking.

Basically what you were doing in on, on pages in the open web and taking to the

other part of the open web, which is CTV.

So first of all, the growth, for us, I'll just, you know,

mention that is, is actually not about, getting more business, right?

I think there is a huge appetite, which, you know, hopefully will touch

on, on the reason, for what EXCO does, you know, improving the efficiency of

yield and, and monetization in general.

I think, you know, we are taking our steps slowly, carefully, you know, making

sure we can deliver on what we promise.

you know, we have many years in online, so, we're not in a rush, you know, to,

take, conquer the market and so on.

We want to do things, right.

I think there is a lot that translate, between, online and CTV.

there are also, significant differences, I would say.

And, you know, what

are the biggest differences that you're seeing?

So I'd say as, almost as a newcomer, it's way more chaotic.

it's, it's,

way more chaotic.

Yeah.

it feels like, you know, the best analogy I can have is, you know, a start.

I don't know, you know, I'm a startup so that these, these are my analogies, but,

A startup company finding product market fit, it all booms, you know, it grows

very quickly, but it's very, very messy.

And the messy in CTV that we're seeing is launching of new apps and channels

and, inventory splits between so many people that you almost lose track.

Everyone is monetizing everyone else's inventory, loss of signals.

Not even loss, I would say just missing, signals or broken signals.

So it really looks like there, there is obviously a huge opportunity.

It's obviously a huge market, but I think you can see that

it's not as mature as online.

Okay.

So, I mean, but it is a, there is a similar story of like walled

gardens versus a, a larger ecosystem.

And the larger ecosystem is trying to compete with the

simplicity of, of walled gardens.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, you know.

It's we're, in a very interesting point in time where we can take the

lessons from online and do things better from the get go to not lose, quote

unquote, that, that competition, you know, on the buyer and, and the user.

Okay.

So this, this year is gonna be the year where people talk,

repeatedly about AgTech advertising.

We did some discussions, yesterday.

You, you came Yeah.

To it.

I, I get the sense that you are a little bearish on the near term potential

for quote unquote agentic advertising.

Yeah.

So, I, I, you know, first, just a disclaimer, I don't want what

I'm saying to be as a reference to what people said yesterday.

Okay.

But I think, you know, I would start with, anyone that says Agentic

needs to explain what Agentic is.

I think, you know, just, well, this

is ad tech, this is how it goes.

Yeah, no, but come up with a term and then debate what it it means for 12 to 18

months.

Yeah.

I think everyone is throwing all their, you know, whims and wishes and, and, and

on a term that they can barely explain.

So I think, you know, AG Agentic is gonna solve.

you know, campaign optimizations and agentic is gonna, so we, we

wouldn't need to talk to each other.

It'll just all work.

And us humans, you know, we'll have time to shine and be creative and so on.

I think you, you know, even technically, let's start with

having the right data in place.

'cause by the way, otherwise, no AI is gonna save that.

And I think the biggest gap between, let's call it.

The open online, the open everything versus the closed garden.

I think the biggest, we're still calling it the open web, I think.

Is it the open web?

I think so, yeah.

Yeah.

We have no other terms.

Okay.

So someone needs to come with that term.

but, but, I think the, the biggest gap is that,

in when you like.

Try to, you know, connect different systems to speak with each other.

Trust is the, is the, and you're not even in control of that, right?

AI and, and prompting.

There is a lot of, black boxing there.

Trust is a key component in that.

And I think, you know, one of the biggest problems in the open web.

Is the lack of trust between supply and demand.

We, we, we could have, or, you know, as an industry, we could

have bridged that gap before ai.

Mm-hmm.

We didn't.

So I just hope that, you know, people don't throw a gentech as a solution

to a much more fundamental problem.

That is really trust between the two sides.

Yeah.

And it's like, it's a business practices problem.

It's a business model issue versus a technical issue.

It seems.

you can associate the, the problem with commercials

and, and incentives I guess.

and the way it was done before, I think, The situation didn't get that worse

for us to really come as a group and, and solve some of the key problems.

So to what I heard yesterday, you know, people talk about

performance and SKUs and so on.

I think the open web with the companies we have today can deliver performance.

I, we, we just need to start working together on that.

So, I mean, I always, I associate EXCO with like the open web, right?

I mean, and, and, you know, historically, you know, helping publishers to, to

monetize, more of your business now.

I mean, the open web has, has expanded the definition, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

more of your business is moving to CTV.

Yeah.

Right?

Like, and you expect probably the majority.

Of your business to be in CTV?

Not in its, I don't wanna say legacy.

I think we'll have to say legacy.

Yeah.

No, don't, let's not say legacy.

I think there is a convergence that is happening.

Okay.

And I think also the definition of CTV is sort of evolving, right?

is out of home.

CTV.

Yes.

No.

You know, when you see, videos and video ads in different

apps, you know, transportation apps and, food delivery apps.

So, you know, what exactly is CTV in From a, from a programmatic standpoint,

is, is becoming a bit more amorphic.

I think Exco vision is to be able to, monetize every screen.

I, I think these differences are internal and in the end of the day,

you know, the, the, the brands, the.

Their, you know, agencies, they, they wanna see results.

And I think, you know, a lot of, of the ways we describe things in different

buckets and so on are, counterproductive to deliver results for the brand.

And we see a more holistic picture where EXCO could be used.

across any digital screen may be CTV online.

Yeah.

And so on.

Well, I would just say this, I think you should

get inventory on the sphere.

I think it's the greatest ad placement around right now in the world.

Yeah.

I would be clamoring to, to, to advertise on the sphere.

I, it is outside of my hotel room and I, I actually turned, a chair around the

other night and was just like watching.

Watching the sphere.

so, you know, the sphere actually can be, seen from space.

So, you know, I think that there's the impress impact, impress, you

know, the absolutely impact is, is, you know, out of this world.

It's literally On

that note, thank you, Tom.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Okay, welcome back to TRB Conversations at CES Powered by xco.

Joined by Manas Mital, senior Director of Product Management at Uber Ads.

give us a sense of the scale of, of Uber Ads.

Yeah, so our ads business today is about one and a half billion dollars

is what we, announced, in Q3 last year.

It's also growing tremendously fast.

So 60% growth year on year.

Yeah.

And, you know, again, like the business metrics is one angle of it.

the other aspect in terms of the consumer, et cetera, like our consumer

base is also growing very fast, trip volumes, et cetera, growing.

And the ads business is a layer on top of that, which is growing

faster than even that core part.

the core business is growing

and most of that is showing is, is showing ads to people while

they're being matched to drivers who are within as during their ride.

Yeah, so we have, so I see ads in a few different ways from Uber.

Yeah,

we have multiple kind of ad placements and products.

So I think overall Uber has the Eats business, which is our,

you know, marketplace, food, grocery, retail oriented business.

We do have ads there, which is a substantial part of our business.

And then we have the rides business where we show ads, you know, while

you're on the trip, et cetera.

is the other part of the, IS business, and this

is kind of like a new category in some way.

It's like mobility ads, right?

Yeah.

So what are the unique data assets that you're bringing?

Because I'm like, a lot of times if I'm in, like, I remember one time I

was like in an Uber and I was getting just a completely contextual ad and

like the, the, there was a screen like on the, like right in front of

me and I was just thinking to myself.

Oh man, publishers can't compete with this.

because you guys have a ton of data and it's a, it's a unique,

coming from the air, you know, I'm coming from the airport.

Yeah.

In Miami, you've got like all this data, but what, what are the

data sources are you're using?

Yeah,

so you know, there's We have obviously a lot of relevant

information about the user.

So I think if you look at this example of travel, I know that you

took a flight to, you took an Uber from your home in New York Yeah.

To the airport.

Then I know that you got to Vegas.

I know you went to the airport.

You, went from the Vegas airport to your hotel.

I have a lot of, I I know now that you are, you know, a CES aficionado, right?

I have some context around that.

I know you are staying at a high-end hotel, so I know more things.

Well, it's

the MGM grant.

I wouldn't go that far.

so, you know, so there's like, based on places where you've been,

obviously we have information now.

the, you know, it's also, you know, the, the other opportunity here is.

In addition to the data, the placements of the app, et cetera, allow for kind

of contextual, real time advertising That's hard for other, partners.

Like that's, you kind of have a captive audience in a car, for example.

And so those, assets become quite, important as well as

you look at the a portfolio.

Yeah.

How do you balance the user experience?

I mean, you're, you, you have experience working for very user-focused, you

know, companies like Facebook, right?

Yeah.

And balancing that is, is difficult.

Like there are some retail media executions I don't love.

Yeah.

Instacart, my friends at Instacart, I'm sorry.

I don't love that, that that ad experience because it, it does.

I'm putting in what I want and they're telling me like, here's something else.

And I didn't, I don't think that, that it's, it's completely well executed.

How do you end up.

Balancing that.

I was like joking with you before asking.

Yeah.

If you delay matching me with a driver so I can, I can see an ad for the record.

We don't and we don't intend to.

Yeah.

Q4, you're gonna be waiting five minutes for, for your batch.

Go on.

Yeah, no, I think, look, you know these, Uber is a very

user first company, right?

So you'll see that in all kind of the ethos that we follow around ads as well.

On the rides product.

The ads, first of all, the ads in general, right?

In our business, they only work if they're relevant for the user.

If they're not annoying and inter interruptive to the user, they

don't work otherwise, right?

It leads to erosion of the user experience in, in this case, we don't want, you take

you to take less Uber trips or less Uber place, less Uber Eats orders because of,

the erosion that adds cost causes, right?

So as a principle, it's, it's not just good.

Philosophical standard.

It's also good for business to ensure that the ads are high quality.

managing that, I think in the, there are two contexts, the rides context, which is,

you know, tends to be brand advertising.

There.

We put our placements in non interruptive kind of place, right?

So we definitely don't delay your trip matching.

you know, we, I appreciate that, you know, but we do see a high attention.

Once the driver is matched, so we'll show you an ad, then we show

you an ad when, you know, while the trip is, on route, et cetera.

And that's like, you know, that's again, the user is in the car at that time.

We also now have, ads in, tablets, journey tv, right?

And so those, if you just experience that, you will see how delightful it is.

It's just a larger screen experience.

Very, very user.

user first, right.

But we run, I can

turn the sound off on like taxi tv.

Yeah.

It's off by default actually, but, you know, but I think the, the key there is,

there's a lot of algorithmic optimizations to determine which ad to show to which

user to maximize relevance to the user.

Right?

And in fact, for a small percentage of users, we don't

show ads and we see the impact.

We always evaluate the impact that ads is having.

On that user base so we can tweak and adjust our algorithms

to ensure maximal user outcomes.

So

when you think about self-driving, right?

that's clearly the direction these things are going.

Like I see, you know, the, the waymo's are, are like around Miami learning

and, and they'll launch there.

you guys are gonna partner with, with a lot of people, but I think the, the

ride share experience is, is going.

To be increasingly self-driving in, in five years, it's evolving

years or something that's clear.

Right.

How does that change the ad business?

Yeah, because I think it, it, it does make it a slightly different context.

I haven't been in a Waymo yet, or any of, any of them.

I've seen Zoox is around here.

I don't know if you've seen those little crazy little things.

Yeah.

We, we do have them in sf and by the way, Uber, just in this ces, we

announced, one of the partnerships with.

Nvidia and, lucid and we'll have cars out, Uber cars out by end of this year in sf.

So the Uber is going to be partnering with very, very diverse set of

kind of third party, and, you know, third party autonomy providers.

in terms of how the ads business will evolve, I think again, going back to the

notion of user experience, Uber is going to, we first to be optimizing kind of the

base experience in the car for you, right?

So ads will actually come later for autonomous once we get the base

experience being done really well.

Then there's a notion of like both in app while you're on the trip as

well as, you know, with when the 16 screens that you might have in one

of these devices, one of these smart cars will be figuring out like where

is the right ad placement, et cetera.

Yeah.

To, to show.

But what I wonder is, is I can see a big screen experience making sense

in, in a car that you're in by yourself.

Yeah.

Versus like, I would never put on like a big screen with like

sound on while someone is driving.

Like that would be.

Obnoxious.

There is definitely the social contracts as they evolve with this.

Right.

Will you be, you know, will you feel more comfortable just like even

shopping more, you know, or, you know, transparently, will you be,

how will the user behavior evolve?

I think is how we will, we will build around those rather than necessarily

build a ags product to trying to, change that experience first.

Right.

Okay.

Cool.

Manas, thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Welcome to TRB conversations at CES powered by exco.

Andrea, thank you for joining, to talk a little bit about vibe

and also I think one of the macro trends of 2026 to me is people who

are going to smaller communities.

Like I think that is a big trend.

So tell us a little bit about, about vibe.

Yeah.

Well, it's interesting also being here at CES, right where everybody's

looking know it's the opposite.

It's big.

It's the opposite.

Big ideas.

They're trying to plan their futures, but at the same time, I think

we're all having conversations with ourselves and with others about,

you know, what am I doing here?

What is my next chapter?

You know, there's a lot of like Vegas is a good

place to have those conversations with yourself.

That's right.

So I, what we do is we try to help people in really identifying how can they build

and live their best life, both from a business standpoint but also personally.

And so we have everything from leadership and a mastermind where we

bring together founders as well as C-Suites to help them really do the work.

In arriving at that state, we also run something called the CMO Podcast.

Sure.

With Jim Gel, former chief marketing officer of Proctor and Gamble, who really

lives that kind of full life and has a lot of stories and we bring together

different communities to be able to tell those stories and be inspirational.

Yeah.

But we're talking about like Ker has what is the sort of, and, and you'd

worked with Gary Vaynerchuk for a while and like he, he catches onto trends.

Like pretty early and Yeah.

Tracking this.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, I mean that's what we, we gave birth to Vibe.

and this was inspired by Gary Vaynerchuk in part because I think what we were

seeing, and this was about two years ago, is that people were really having

a crisis of confidence in terms of what did their, what's next look

like and who did they wanna become?

And a lot of leaders act.

Everything's okay.

And they, on paper, everything looks great, but at the same time,

they feel like they have a crisis of confidence in themselves.

a lot of people are going through different kinds of identity

shifts, questions around, you know, who do I wanna be?

what's my legacy?

All of that kind of thing.

Gary didn't have a place where you could go and actually do the work around that.

And so two years ago we launched, at the time Vibe by Vayner, to really help.

Executives and founders address those kinds of big, big questions.

Right.

And so it's like, I mean, it's, it's sort of, I don't wanna say piggybacking,

but it's, it's playing off of like, you know, Gary's got like an unbelievable

following, particularly among the.

The sort of entrepreneurial, I would call it the hustle hustler class.

I don't mean in a bad way.

Yeah.

You know, he hates that word.

The hustle now does, I think he loves it, but he hates it at the same time.

I mean, he wrote it on the way off, so he's gonna That's right.

Yeah.

No, I think, you know, what is it like 50 million plus followers and

Yeah, he's got a lot of people.

I don't think it's

a negative thing.

Like I think you have to, like, I think if there's like a word of

the year for 2026, I think it's.

Gonna be, maybe it's like a hyphenated word, but it's like

high agency, like high agency is basically a rebranding of hustling.

Yeah.

I think that everybody's trying to figure out how are they

hacking their lives, right?

And how are they living into something that, and if they can,

you know, just sort of muscle their way through into happiness.

That, that would be ideal because that's with stuff that we can control.

I think the problem is there's so much that we can't control now that how do

we, back to your earlier point, have intimate communities where we can

be ourselves, have a safe place to really explore what that is and, you

know, deal with all kinds of stuff.

All the crisis of confidence, but also build the tools that allow us yeah, to

live into our best and happiest selves.

But I think also these.

When I think about like macro trends like this, like plays into more of the like.

Smaller and private communities that are, I mean, look in New York, I

mean, Gary like has one I went there.

Yep, he has

is on the, the Fly Fish Club.

Yeah.

Yeah.

was it on Halston?

yeah, it is.

It's, and you know, but I I, and you see it all over New York, and

maybe this is part of like, you know, the inequality story, but like,

there's so many of these like private restaurants, private clubs and whatnot.

But I do think that there, there is something happening where people are going

into smaller spaces where they can be more, I guess, authentically themselves.

Yeah.

I think people are looking for their tribe.

Right.

Right.

And that, you know, we're going out into this big world of AI and

we're, you know, the, the, you know, the stakes are, are big out there.

And so we, I think the more that folks can feel like they can be surrounded by.

People who inspire them, but also they connect with in a way that's truly human.

I feel like there is gonna be more of that drive to something that's,

you know, that's very, very personal.

and so there, yeah, we see there's no shortage of different communities

out there and opportunities for connection and it's.

Interesting to see CES this year and just the frenzy of, you know, interest in

connecting and all those kind of things.

And yet people are pretty worn out.

It's today's Wednesday, it looks like people have been here for three

weeks if you're, you know, kind of walking by them at this moment.

36 hours in Vegas.

That's right.

It's enough.

Yeah.

Let's, let's pack it in.

But yeah.

But I think that we all have to do the work in order to really.

You know, sort of reach for the stars.

And so that's, we try to bring together everything from, you know, members

of Shark Tank, like Damon John and Bobby Brown to talk about the rise

and sometimes fall of that journey around, especially being an entrepreneur

or a c sweeter that's on the climb.

To be really honest about what, what does that, what did that journey look like?

Yeah.

And then, you know, what is the, what is the stuff that's not, it's not

just a matter of me having my aura ring and my, you know, doing that.

We've sometimes have to do a little bit deeper work in order to recognize how

we can become, become our better selves.

And those things don't happen in big, in big groups, you know?

'cause then particularly people like believe in, in, you know,

your target They're gonna be more,

it doesn't happen on social media.

They're

gonna be more manicured.

That's right.

Like, I mean, I think where it's being, it's funny 'cause like Gary has seen this,

like, you know, I think he really took off for being like authentic in social media.

Right.

And, where the social media went.

I believe it became more just like a manicured.

version sometimes based on a true story, sometimes not, that you put out there

in the world and the algorithms, you know, basically incentivized you to be.

I think they have and they continue to to be inauthentic in some ways.

Yeah, I think that's right.

But I think the other thing that's interesting is to see that different

trends, even in social media where now it's not necessarily just about the

number of followers, but it's, you know, the algorithms are supporting engagement

and that oftentimes it's better to have more engagement with the select group.

Almost deprioritize, just having big numbers and seeing the, you know, kind

of the authentic exchange that you're having and that a lot of the, you know,

the platforms are incentivizing that.

I think the other thing, you know, back to your point about having

intimate groups of communities.

Research shows that people tend to be able to make more of habitual changes

in their lives that are meaningful and impactful in groups of about 12 people.

That anything more than that Yeah.

Is, you know, is something where it's not a true, you're not creating

lifelines and you know Yeah.

Kind of long term, you know, friendships and supportive constructs.

So people have to like apply to be part of this, right?

That's right, absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, that's the most important thing is that we're not only

identifying people that are ambitious.

But they're, incredibly devoted to curiosity, but also generosity.

And we can't run the risk that we're bringing people on for the wrong reasons.

Right?

Because you, as, as you know, if you've got, you know, 12

people and one person is sort of.

Abusing the, you know, kind of the value system of the group that, that Right.

That's kind of the, the death of the, you know, the vibe if you will Yeah.

Of the vibe community.

I

got it.

I got that.

yeah.

'cause I think this is a macro trend, right?

Like, whether that's like, you know, invitation, only invitation newsletters

are gonna be good thing in 2026.

Mm-hmm.

I think for a lot of people.

A WhatsApp group or a group text is probably their most

valuable form of media.

And I think it's, it's instructive to like, think about, that I'm

doing, I have like a small text group that, you know, relative, it's a

few hundred people, that I'm doing like from these events and whatnot.

And I think it's just, that's smaller.

Those smaller spaces are going to become.

It's ironic to be saying this at CES where there's surrounded

by 140,000 people keep it.

but these, those smaller spaces are gonna be more valuable for sure.

Yeah.

And isn't it funny that Yeah.

Just these WhatsApps where you can actually say help, you know.

Yeah.

9 1 1, I need help.

I'm looking for, you know, talent.

I, you know, here's a challenge that I haven't.

You know, sort of been able to crack and to have an ability to be able to

connect in, in a second with those people because you already have that trust.

Right.

And I think that's the most important thing is, you know, we've

gotta have trust with one another.

and then you can have all kinds of technological overlays that allow

you to facilitate something quickly.

But if you don't have the trust, then you don't have anything.

Yeah.

Excellent.

I know I'm gonna need a group to like text the the help to when I'm like at my

gate at Vegas airport tomorrow we are here for you and I hear those slot machines.

Oh, that's the moment I really need help.

Andrea, thank you so much.

Thank you so much for joining.

I'm there with you 'cause I'm the one that's always getting lost in

the casinos as we're going out.

Exactly.

And I have my Judy over here who pulls me aside intention

and is promises to get me home.

So thank you so much for this conversation.

All right.

Thanks.