In this episode, we chatted with freelance food and lifestyle book publicist and Thursday Media founder Kimberly Escobar about the adorable perils of working from home (specifically, Zoom-bombing kittens), how both traditionally and self-published authors can make their publicists’ jobs easier, and how to do your OWN book PR if you can’t afford a pro to do it for you. We also talked about the joys and pains—but mostly joys—of owning your own business, why an Arby’s was actually the perfect place for a book launch party, and how even the shyest of introverts can effectively promote their books without feeling like they need to take a shower afterward.

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It doesn't matter if it's 11 o'clock in the morning,

yeah, dependent on how soon before that you got up. That's

how early it is. That's, that's really true. Your day starts,

you know, within a certain time period of you getting out of

bed, like that's and it's a Sunday too. So, you know, carte

blanche to Yeah, exactly. Yep. Welcome to the hybrid pub Scout

podcast with me, Emily Einolander and me. Corinne

kolasky, hello, we're mapping the frontier between traditional

and indie publishing, and today's guest is Kimberly

Escobar. Kimberly Escobar, hi everyone. Well, hello.

Thank you so much. I'm going to read your bio that you so nicely

sent to us.

Kimberly Escobar, president and founder of Thursday Media Inc,

began her career as publicist at Grand Central publishing, an

imprint of Hachette, before joining the then newly launched

flatiron books, an imprint of Macmillan, to spearhead their

lifestyles publicity. She made a name for the flat iron list with

some of the most discriminating writers in media. And her

campaigns often grace the pages of everything from the New York

Times to Forbes. She regularly booked top tier national

broadcast media such as the Late Show with Stephen Colbert, Good

Morning America, the view and the Today Show. In her

campaigns, she recently launched Isaac Ms. He's instant New York

Times bestseller I am, which included stops at CBS This

Morning, multiple national NPR interviews and a New York Times

by the book interview among other major press. She also led

the recent publicity campaigns for Jamie Oliver and Nigella

Lawson and the James Beard and IACP award winning bottom of the

pot by nazdarabian and between Harlem and heaven by JJ Johnson

and Alexander Smalls. Kimberly has planned executed and

traveled on countless national book tours, with stops in venues

as large as 1500 seat theaters to the most intimate indie

bookstores. She is now president and founder of Thursday Media

Inc, where she continues to craft headlining media campaigns

and attention grabbing events for her clients. Kimberly earned

a BA from Virginia Tech and lives in New York City with her

husband and two well fed cats. Thank you, Kimberly.

Thank you. It sounds great coming out of your mouth. Very,

very distinguished.

I'm jealous. Thank you for kicking it off.

Jealous that you met Nigella. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I am a

lifelong fan. After working with her, I'm totally devoted to her.

So

she's everything that, everything that you hope, that

she'll be and even more than that, she's fantastic. As I

said, totally devoted,

wonderful. It's good to hear sometimes too, that you meet

your heroes, and they're like, still your heroes, you know,

after you meet them. So that's a nice part to me. Kind of a lot.

I find that the people that I really that are like the real

deal, like her, you know, she's like, she's been doing this for

a long time. She's had a million cookbooks like they, they tend

to live up to the, you know, they tend to be what you think

they're going to be like, Oh yeah, no, you're, you are really

good, really smart and empathetic, and you get it. So

anyway, nice that that works out. Yeah, yeah, that's a

pleasant surprise. Yeah, that's good to hear. Yeah, yeah. All

right, so I will ask the first question, because it has to do

with cats. Have your cats zoom bombed? Any of your meetings?

So, so much. First of all, so we have spent the bulk of our

quarantine here in our East Village apartment, which you can

see on the Zoom call. And my husband is also working from

home, you know, as we do these days, and we just have been

running into each other. We're just like, trying to find space.

We're trying to he's like yelling into the phone. I'm

speaking loudly into the phone. We're like, trying to do our

thing. I mean, I'll just tell you the most notable time this

happened, because it was ridiculous. I was having a

potential client meeting on Zoom. So like, no, there were

stakes and and I'm like, you know, he's on the phone at the

same time. I'm scurrying around. I'm trying to find base. I'm on

camera. It's like, supposed to be on Zoom. I was scurrying back

to our bedroom, which is, like, obviously not ideal. So I'm

like, crushing down the pillows so, you like, can't see them in

the bag when I'm, like, actually sitting on my bed and trying to,

like, make it seem as if my headboard is, like, the back of

my chair, which definitely just my bed. And, you know, it's all

going fine. You know, we're having this potential client

meeting. The potential client was, like, definitely a really,

like, straight laced kind of guy, like, not.

Somebody that you might really joke with or laugh off this

thing that happened. And we're like, you know, almost done with

the meeting. And we have a kitten. Well, she's eight months

old now, so I guess she's teenage. She just goes, like,

strolling across the top of the headboard, behind my head, just

like, completely through the shot. And he just goes like, Oh

my God. I was like, did he? Did he notice that? Maybe it

glitched. Maybe he didn't see and I just ignored it. And he

goes, was that

a cat? Yeah, that was like, it's

like, come on,

cats, like,

I'm trying to put a roof over your head. Like, can you can you

work with me here?

Yeah,

Connor will just come in and cry. It'll be fine until, like,

I start talking. They're like, who else are you talking to? Who

else is even worth talking to? Like, what are you doing? I'm

here. It's

very true. Yeah. So how did you decide that you wanted to pursue

a career in publishing? Was it a pretty direct route or a bit

more circuitous? Totally circuitous. It

was totally circuitous. And I didn't, you know, I feel like,

when you speak with people who had a more circuitous path, like

I did, the older they get, you know, I'm now in my 30s, the

older they get, I feel like the more appreciation you hear from

people. And I definitely feel that way, you know, when I was

in my 20s, when I was in my mid 20s, and I was getting started

in publishing, I mean, I had had other career, you know, I had

done other jobs up until that point, and my co workers had

been interns at Hachette, and then, you know, they started as

assistants, and they were Associates, and I was, like,

for, you know, for it to be so direct, you know, how amazing it

felt to me, like they knew so much, which they did, but like,

you know, they knew how to use, like, the internal systems at

Hachette, which is, like, a really great skill, but Like,

not a super transferable one, and not like, you know, that

doesn't actually help, you know, about the world. And I just, I

didn't understand that, and I didn't put any value in it,

until I got to be like, player in my 20s, and then to my 30s.

And I kind of, I found myself drawing on my previous

experience, like, in really random ways. Like, I graduated

in 2010 which was a really weird time to graduate, especially

with a lit degree, I was like, you know, and I

jumped into some jobs, you know, I worked in the retail buying

industry for a couple years, and, you know, lots of

spreadsheets, but also, like, negotiation, and I learned how

to be hyper communicative in that, in that business, which

has served me well. And I just, you know, I I understand a fair

amount about business now. So I work with, I have worked with,

and I continue to work with brands, and I rep startup

company now, actually, and I hit the ground running with them,

like there's a lot that I already understand. And I'm

like, Oh yeah, it's because I did this thing that seemed, you

know, I felt so pathless at that time. But it wasn't. It was

prospective giving, and now I feel like I am beginning to

really appreciate that, and I'm glad, I'm glad that for me, at

least it was right that, like, that's the way things went.

Yeah? And you never recognize that until you're in a

particular place where you feel good, and then you look back and

you're like, Oh, yeah. Room where, like, you know, or this

happening, happened to me, I would be in the room with a

bunch of publishing people and, like, you know, the the author

or the client, whoever would like say something and I would

understand it, like, didn't have to be explained to me. I was

like, Oh, I get this already, because it's a perfect thing

that I did that like nobody else has done. And I was like, Oh,

that is what we call experience, and

it is valuable. Like, what valuable experience

is, all right, now, what made you want to strike out on your

own and start your own peer for a couple of years before I

actually did it? It was, I don't know if you would call that a

longer term goal. It was, it was something that kind of

percolated for a little while,

and there were a couple of people who were saying things to

me, like, like, oh, like, you know you're, you're good at

this, and you know you could do this. And you know you have you

ever thought about striking out on your own? And like, you know,

when it was first suggested to me, I was like, No, you know,

can you, can you do that? And then I realized that, like, this

is a business that actually really lends itself to doing

that. And you know, you can have a really close measure of

control over your projects that you work on. And you know, these

other things that, like, you know, when you're in the house

you don't control and, you know, maybe you love it, maybe you

don't love it. And I, you know, once it became real to me, I was

like, yeah, actually, yes. Like, that's what I wanted to do.

Also, like, the idea of being a small business owner was, like,

inconceivable to me. And then as I researched more, I learned

more about especially women who are small business owners, I was

like, Yeah, I really want to do that. I want to be that. I want

to pursue that. And so now I'm here, and it's fine. I read so

many, like, scary interviews where people are like, Oh my

god, like, you know, I'm like, I have a CPA and I have a lawyer,

and I'm like, running around and it's crazy, and I'm like, it's

actually not that scary.

It's fine. It's really fine. Like, we've all made.

To charter things than this. So I feel, you know, the the payoff

for me is, you know, having total control over my my

projects and my clients and or who my clients are, is so

valuable to me. Like I would do, I would start, I mean, I would

start other businesses. If there was, like, you know, way in the

future, if there was something else that was interesting to me,

I would totally do it, because I'm having such a good

experience now. Follow these Instagram accounts where it's

definitely, you know that, lol, I'm the worst kind of millennial

like Instagram thing, but it's for, like, business owners. This

one that's like my biz coach says, and it's all just like, I

never leave the house and all I do is eat Fritos all day.

That's not true. I think, I think if you're managing your

time like, you know, it's just not true. It does not have to be

like that connect. It

can be quite nice, awesome.

So what do you miss most about working for a big five

publisher, and what do you miss the email address? I miss having

that like, you know, at so and so, I mean immediate responses

in some corners of the media world. I have a friend who went

from we were former coworkers and we're close friends, and she

went from where we worked together to another place that

was, like, even a little bit more prestigious. And she was

like, it's like, shooting fish in a barrel. She's like, I just

send emails from this email address. It can have, like, the

barest modicum of a pitch. And they're like, Yeah, okay, let's

do it. And I'm like, oh my, you know, I've experienced a little

bit of that, you know, and going from that, you know, having a

couple of big five email addresses as a publicist, and

then going to your own business and having an email address that

nobody's ever heard of. And I have worked with all of these

folks, all of these media contacts for years, like, they

know who I am, but even that was, like, it took a while.

There was, like, a bit of a hurdle where I had to

reintroduce myself, and it's like, hey, remember me? Like, I

booked a Jamie Oliver with you, and I felt awesome that like, oh

yeah. And, but it's still, you know, it was a bit of a hump. So

I missed that email address. That was great. I didn't know, I

didn't know what I had until I didn't have it

anymore. You don't know what you have till you lose it, right?

Yeah,

exactly. And then the thing that I misbelieve is definitely

meeting, I mean, and that's not a public thing. I think it's any

you know, at this point, I've worked for a number of big

corporations, and it's just, it's like, I don't know what it

is. It just corporations have so many useless meetings, and they

just, no matter how many initiatives are launched, to

like, you know, no meeting Friday and etc. It just never

works. There's just too many meetings. So I don't miss that.

Now, if I have a meeting, it's like, either one on one between

me and a client or whoever, or it's like, strictly because,

like, my presence is needed, and like, I'm either leading it or

I'm, like, consulting, and it's like, you know, it's, it's very

directly related to me. And it's not something where I'm sitting

in a room with 100 people and, you know, three people speak. So

you know that if you have to have an initiative to

having way too many meetings,

that was an unexpected consequence of starting my own

business. I was like, oh, you know what self you only when you

need to, and it's great.

Imagine that.

All right, so how does a PR campaign for a self published

book look different from one for a traditionally published has

surprised me to discover is that self published campaigns are

very nimble. They're quite nimble. They're scrappy. They

can be very scrappy. And I have, I've been really pleasantly

surprised to find out that when something makes sense to do, you

can just do it. There's no bureaucratic reason to not do

it. I mean, I, prior to this, I only ever worked at big

companies, and there would always be, like, some really

obscure, odd, like, systemic reason why you couldn't do a

thing that seemed like it really clearly made sense, and that

just doesn't exist in self publishing. You know, if a thing

makes sense, it's like, okay, I asked this question of myself

and of my clients all the time, when we're trying to figure out

something, it's like, okay, what is the right thing to do here?

You know? Because sometimes it's so easy to get mired and like,

you know, what's the easiest thing, or, you know, what's the

most obvious thing? And like, Alright, everybody, slow down,

stop, what is the right thing to do? And then you just go do

that. There's, there's nothing stopping you. I really

appreciate being to do that, being able to do that. And it's

like a pleasant surprise that being said. So publishing

campaigns, because they are scrappier, they can be, like,

quite disorganized. So the plus is at the same time the minus. I

mean, as I'm saying this so I'm like, I mean a campaign at a big

five publisher can be just as disorganized. It really has to

do with, like, the author and their team and and how on board

they are. You know, how good of a partner they are with you. You

know, the publicist and the editor and the marketer and all

the other people that work on the

book. Yeah. So did you have a particular interest in food and

lifestyle books before you began working on them, or was it just

a happy accident? So I have a lifelong interest in food and

lifestyle topics. So it's no accident that it became an idea.

Write in books I have loved to cook for. I mean, since I was,

like, really little, I have, this is, like, just in trivia. I

have like, a little scar on my forehead from where I was, like,

I was making flan when I was, like, still too little, like,

you know, I could technically stand at the stove, but, like, I

was caramelizing the sugar and, but I was like, low, you know,

like, and, like, a little bit sat out. And I have, like, a

little cooking scar. And I'm like, You know what? That makes

sense? What? That makes sense? That's like on brand for me as

an adult.

But that, I mean, I've just always liked to get in the

kitchen, and, you know, I like the mechanics of it. I like the

I mean, I like cooking for the same reasons that people who

like cooking, they say that they like this tangible thing,

miscreation. I mean, also for people, I don't know about you,

I don't want to speak for you guys, but like, for people like

us that are behind computers all day, and we we write emails, and

it's like, very much like an information job. It's nice to

build something with your hands, and, you know, be able to look

at it. I like baking, too, for that reason, because, like, you

can build a cake it takes all day, or take multiple days, or

whatever, and then you look at it and it's done, and it's done,

and it's just standing there on its own. So I like it. I like a

lot of physical things. I mean, I'm a big subscriber, like DIY

magazine and HDTV, like I all of those topics are just really

magnolia. So they're just really attractive to me. They've always

been that way. And then, of course, I feel like so many

people who work in a book industry, they have the same,

like, sort of lame reason for wanting to work in books, which

I share. It's that we all really like books. So we're like,

always like, although it's funny because like, like, actually,

really doesn't have very much to do with it, I think, in the end.

But I Yeah, that's true. You know, I really like books, and

so that is how I found my way.

Yeah, well, I have to say too, as someone who actually like,

hates to cook because I'm just terrible at it and I don't have

the patience for it, I really admire people who like to cook

and like, put the time and dedication into it to, like,

learn how to do it, right. But I also feel like people who love

to cook, like they do it as, like, a way to show love and a

way to show that they care about you, and a way to show you, know

what I mean. Like, to me, it's a very generous thing to do. I,

like I said, I just really admire that about people who

cook, because I think it's just, it comes from this place of

just, you know, like, I just wanting to show people that you

love. I say this all the time, like, I think to my husband, my

love language is cooking, right? Like, like, it's like, that

sense of, like, caring for people and taking care of them.

And it's not performative, actually. It's like, I really,

and I feel like I share this with people who cook you. You

want to see people be well and be taken care of, and like, you

want to be the one to do that. And I really strongly build a

love language, at least in myself, I feel like, you know, I

don't, maybe I don't express love well in other ways, but

like, this is the way I express it. So, like, if I spend six

hours making a meal for somebody, like, that's love,

what else is that?

Yeah, yeah, exactly, well. And if you think about things, like,

you know, when tragic things happen and like, somebody passes

away, like, what's the first thing you do, like, you bring

them, yeah, you know, like you bake something for them, or you

like bring them a casserole, or you like just to make their life

easier, you know. So it's just, it's very much, much covers from

this place, yeah, right. Like, I mean, there's so much, I mean,

there's just so much discussion about how, you know, across

cultures. I mean, especially now, because we're talking about

so much about how to connect and how to get groups that don't

understand each other to connect, and we talk about food

a lot you mentioned when you're reading off my bio about NASDAQ

and her she is, she is a refugee from Iran. She came here when

she was seven in the 1970s and she's never been able to go

back. They were, her family were political refugees, and she

wrote bottom of pot, which was nominated for a James Beard

Award, and she won an ICP award. We had an amazing year. It's

really fun going to all the award shows and and picking up

awards too. That was, that was great. But she recently,

recently appeared on Padma Lakshmi's taste the nation. Have

you seen it yet? On Hulu?

I haven't watched it yet. I haven't really sitting down and,

like, looking for something to watch Definitely. And it's like

very much about that. It's like very much about, I mean, look,

this is not a new topic. Like we talk about trying to connect

cultures through food, because every culture has, like, a food

and a care element in it. And we're like, okay, look, if we

can eat each other's cuisines and we can understand each other

through that. Through that is that, you know, the first open

door into, you know, having a deeper understanding. So NAS

appeared on that show. And of course, like, you know, for her

segment of the episode that she's in, of course, crying,

it's so moving. She Her story is incredible, her recipe story,

and you know, the care and the love that she puts into her

food, but, and of course, like padmas, like, she does the most

incredible interview too. She just sits down and, like, ask

all the right questions, and then just, like, listens. And

I'm like, ladies, like you guys are just both of you really

pressing it right now. Like, you're just really, I'm like,

anyway, highly recommend, of course, when it went live on

Hulu, I'm like, live texting my experience to not.

She's in LA, I'm in New York, and I'm like, Oh, my God,

that's, like, your story, every time I hear it. So,

no, that's really cool. Yeah, God, now I'll have to, like,

definitely put it on my list, because I keep, like, every time

I scroll by it, I'm like, Oh, that looks interesting. And

then, you know, inevitably, I go into something else, but that's

smooth, yeah, I will check it out for sure, my husband loves

to cook, so that's that's probably going to be a very soon

thing

goes a little over my head sometimes. I will admit I'm a

gardener, but it I appreciate especially the love language

side of things, because I benefit from it sometimes. So

it's like,

everybody's got, yeah, it's true. I feel like we're, we're

all especially confronted with that right now. Everybody's got

to eat for a while there. We're like, what do we do? You know,

like, I was reading that, like recipes and food content and

Google searches for recipes were just exploding, you know, when

we were in the early, earlier shutdown stage of covid. And

it's like, okay, yeah. I mean, for people who eat out, or, you

know, get lunch at their, you know, order lunch to their desk

every day, or go out, you know, to be cooking day in and day

out. And, you know, maybe you know how to make a couple of

recipes for yourself, but that's it, and to be feeding yourself

and your family every night. So somebody told me, a distributor

that I work with, with one of my self published authors, told me

that he saw a huge uptick in cookbook sales too. And I was

like, hooray.

Was was thrilled. Yeah, that makes sense, yeah, yeah. All

right. So what are some of the most unusual campaigns? I have a

favorite campaign. I mean, I've worked, I feel like I at this

point, I've worked on campaigns that just like, run the gamut,

but I I worked on one in the past. Actually, we just passed

the one year mark. I worked on this book called drive through

dreams by Adam Chandler, who I adore and is brilliant. And the

book is, it's like a history of fast food. He's like, a really

great writer. He did really in depth research. He's traveled

the world actually, for years researching this book. And he

made some, like, really great contacts at the corporate

headquarters of, like, various fast food brands. So when it

came time to do the campaign for the book, we, like, reached into

those contacts that he had kind of developed for for the

research, and, you know, we sent them copies of the book. And

like, you know, we, we, like, sat in my office and like, page

flagged all of the mentions of like, McDonald's and incentives

and McDonald's rep, and then the same thing for like, Arby's,

etc, like, and we, we did the, we ended up partnering with

Arby's corporate to do the launch party at Arby's on 23rd

Street here in Manhattan. And it was, it was so fun. Just, like,

really turns a hole, and he's, like, so smart, and he used to

write at the Atlantic, and he his work regularly appears like

Washington Post, and every, like, really classy, brilliant

writer. And we just had this blowout at Arby's. It was, there

were curly fries, there were sliders. It was, you know, we

had writers from like, all over the place, like, he was inviting

friends from, like, The New Yorker, and they were like,

there's an army from Manhattan. And we're like, yeah, come on

over. Like, there's gonna be curly fries. And

then he did a really fascinating conversation with Lizzie

O'Leary, just like, a really smart conversation about fast

food and like, what it means culturally to us and to

different people around the country, you know, the Coast

versus the interior of the country and and to old people

versus young people, just a really smart conversation. And

then we gave, we made branded book, branded wet nap to give

away as favors. It

was perfect. And then also, like, he went on, I mean, that

campaign was amazing. Like, he had like, multiple stops at NPR

to talk about this book about fast food, and he was on, like,

the BBC, World News America. He appeared on TV, and, you know,

he wrote an op ed for The Washington Post. It's just like,

for a book about fast food, it was, like, fantastic. It was, it

was really good. And really good and really unique. And I think

it like came to the moment that worked. So that was an unusual

campaign.

Oh, I love it, no, with all the problems of, like, you know,

factoring farming and all that stuff aside, like, it's really

nice to see people are looking at the cultural side of fast

food right now. Like we had, we interviewed Danny Kane from the

Raven bookstore. And he wrote, like, a whole book of poetry

about all of the different Midwestern, like, fast food

places that he went to. And it's like a few poems for each one.

And it's, it's, it's nice not to see people being shamed for,

like, being interested and, you know, doing these things every

day, kind of like, you know, the early 2000s where it was like,

You're gonna die, yeah, that's like, at this point, like,

definitely well drawn territory. Like, you know, we read Michael

Pollan, like, you know, it's bad for us, but especially for a

huge loss of the country. It's like, really important

culturally, you know, it deserves, it deserves the space

to be talked about. It's just, it's another part of culture and

history.

Be, I mean, yeah, you can talk about, I mean, factory farming,

and, yes, that's bad. And you know, the impact on people's

diets, like, is that bad? And people who feed their kids

McDonald's every single day, just because it's easier and

cheaper than not feeding them McDonald's? Like, yes, that has

its place. But, you know, I really appreciated this, like,

other perspective, and I think the media did too, because we he

really got amazing, we got amazing placement for that book.

And it was, it was quite different. I love it. Yeah,

that's very cool, yeah. Oh, man, oh, it's me. Okay, yeah, all

right, sorry. We're like, switching back and forth between

the questions, and then we get confused and yeah, but anyway,

because we're having such a fun flow of it, and you just forget.

All right, so what do you look for in the self published

authors that you take on as clients? Or I look for authors

who I think are going to be really good partners. And, like,

when I say a good partner, I mean, especially now that I'm

able to choose, I feel like I am choosy, because it's really not.

I mean, first of all, I really want to enjoy the book that is

important. You know, I like while any I think good publicist

can publicize something that, even if they don't love it like,

now that I have kind of created this space for myself to choose,

I'm like, I want to love it like, that's just more pleasant

for me. So that's first and foremost. And then the author is

like, I mean, I, they have to be good to work with. Like, I have

to be, be the kind of person who, like, responds to their

emails. And if I ask them, you know, for work or for book

assets, you know, I'm like, Hey, write an op ed please, you know,

and they agree to it. And, you know, we all think it's a good

idea. And then, you know, if I need, if I need book assets,

like, I just, I mean, journalists and writers work on

deadline, and thusly, like soda publicist. So like, when I need

stuff, I usually need it, like, right now, and it's really hard

when you have somebody who's like, not a good partner,

somebody who's like, too busy to, like, engage with you, and

it's like, okay, well, you hired me, and I I really want to

please you. Like, I want this to be good work. Like, this is also

I'm putting my name on this, and I want it to be good. So it's

like, meet me there. Like, help me make it good. So I really

look for that. I'm like, Really, I try to be really careful. I

mean, you don't have a crystal ball about everybody, and that's

always disappointing when, when you bring somebody on and you

connect with them, and then you get to the work, and it's like,

clearly not as invested as you are. And I'm like, Look, if far

more invested than you are, I think though, also there's a

misnomer. I think sometimes folks will hire a publicist and

think that they're and I actually think that this runs

across the board. I think it's same for editors. I think the

same for marketers too. They bring, they hire a person, and

they're like, Okay, you go off and do everything. You just do

it for me. And it's actually much more of a two way street.

And I think that that is surprising to people. And I

don't know. I don't know, like, at what point in the chain you

fix that? You know, I don't know if it's like, I mean, in the

case of more traditionally published books, I don't know if

it's like, the agent that kind of, like, clears it up, and it's

like, hey, no, he looks you have to bring, you know, you have to

come to the table, like, you have to pitch in and like, this

is, this is the way it works. But I think sometimes people are

like, I already published. Like, that's it. Campaign will happen.

It's like, no, I need some input from you. Still, right? It makes

it better if I have input, yeah, yeah. So what are those kind of

concrete, important things that an author can do to make any job

easier?

Really pumped on email and also, just like, turning around

anything that their publicist asked for, like, if their

publicist is asking for it, they can just assume that it's

urgent. Everything feels urgent. It's like, if we're being asked

for something, we really, typically don't have very long

to get it to whoever is asking for it before that hit is, like,

past deadline. Or, you know, it just dries up in some way. Also,

like, losing momentum is a real thing. Somebody can be really

excited about a pitch, and then, you know, I'm like, dragging,

you know, whatever it is that I need from the author, and then

the person loses interest, or they get a different pitch

that's more exciting to them, and they put that in their

column the next time it goes. So being really prompt important,

and then a good person to work with is important. You know, I

don't know. I feel like,

yeah, nice, yeah. Nice goes a long way, a handful of different

industries. And I'm like, how do we, like, teach this in college?

Like, how do we establish, like, what it means to be, like, a

good, solid, decent person to work with? You know, I don't, I

don't know what that is, but

feel like a lot of that is supposed to happen in

childhood.

How to play nicely with others like that is helpful. And here's

the thing, like, when an author like, and I think I spend a lot

of time thinking about this, because I it's important for an

author to have trust in their publicist. Like, if you've done,

if you're an author and you've done your due diligence, and you

hired a publicist that was, like, recommended to you, and

you had a really great call with them, and you really connected.

And you felt like, you know, you feel that they are excited about

your project if you've done all that, and you know, and that

person is, is reputable, if you can trust them. And it's

actually, it's really counterintuitive for somebody

who has shown the initiative to go ahead and write whole book,

to like to let.

Go like, that is a really hard thing to expect of people who

really, actually have a ton of initiative inside them. You

know, I'm like, Okay, here's my advice on this topic. Like, you

should just take it and there. It's hard for some people, and

it's really hard for people, like, not to micromanage, and

hard for them to understand, like, why that's actually

hurtful to a campaign. It's like, if you're if you're

running your publicist off their feet responding to your emails,

because you just feel so insecure. They aren't pitching

your book. They're responding to your emails. You're just Well, I

mean, they are pitching your book, but you know what? I mean?

It's like their focus is divided, whereas you really want

their focus to be on the pitches and on the campaign and doing

the smartest, best thing for you and your book. And I've, like,

had this conversation so many times with people. I mean,

interestingly, more in house than when I worked with self

published authors, because maybe, maybe there is a feeling

of control the self published authors. They're like, Okay, I

picked this person. I am paying this person directly and but

it's like, you have this conversation when you're like,

hey, like, you brought me on, and I'm an expert in this, and

you can trust and when, when they do, it's magical. Like, I

have an amazing client right now who I really love, and I hope

that she just keeps publishing books so I can keep working with

her. But she, she just really, like, she asked me my opinion,

and I give it, you know, she has questions, she asked them, and

then she just, like, takes the advice, and she is flying, she's

she's published, she doesn't have, you know, these things

that we like traditionally look for, like a platform or social

media, like she doesn't have any of those things. She's done

morning TV in her, in her, in her, her local morning TV. She's

had national media, print media, like she's just, she's flying,

having an amazing campaign, even in this challenging cycle, news

cycle. So she's just one of these people who's really smart.

She trusts and anyway, I hope all my clients are

like this. I hope so.

Yeah, those are some pretty clear directions. Yeah, they

are. I mean, my mic, so I used to be as a publicist at Harper,

like many, many moons ago, but I kind of had the same experience

with authors who are it was like the ones who were constantly

being like, why am I not on the Today Show, why am I not on

Oprah? Like, why am I not you know, it's like you asking me

this all day long. Is, first of all, yes, taking away from my

ability to answer other emails and, like, pitch people who

might be interested in you, but also it makes me not really be

super motivated to help you, because it's so clear that,

like, you don't trust no to do my job, you know? So anyway, I

totally feel what you're saying, because I remember that

personality type, right? And like, now I try to screen for

it, but it's like, for it. But like, I've gotten a dumbass for

long enough now that, like, I can kind of spot that, you know,

I get one funny email or one funny text, and I'm like, Oh,

I've got your number. Yeah, I know. Like, I know what you're

about. And it's like, you know, it's not. People are not helping

themselves with this, and they don't get it. Like, somebody

who's like, in that place to begin with, they just don't get

it. So

to all of your listeners who might be tempted to do something

like this, just just, you know, meditate, take CBD. Like, do

whatever you need to do, to not do it.

Have

you tried CBD

to resist the temptation to email your public 1000 times a

day, and, you know, divide their attention away from things that

are more important, just

don't do it. Yeah, and we were talking to another book mark.

They were a book marketing coach, and that was the core of

their message was, like, we are all on the same team, like that.

You need to assume that we're all working for the same end,

which is to sell your book to as many people who will love it as

possible. You know, like we're not enemies, we're not at cross

purposes that, like sometimes needs to be pointed out, but it

does. It's like we're all in this together. We all really

want to reach the same goal, like we all really wanted this

book to do well, otherwise we wouldn't be doing this. You

know, we would go do something else for work.

Yeah, that's true. All right. So what advice do you have for

authors who are more introverted and maybe not really comfortable

putting themselves out there? This is another conversation

that I that I have because, like, I was saying, somebody

who's like, has the initiative to go ahead and write a whole

book is like somebody who has a lot of, you know, get up and go

and so to tell them to, like, chill out is is tough. It's not

intuitive for them. The same thing, there are a lot of

introverts. They like books. And I hear this all the time.

Authors say to me, like, you know, oh, how can I how can I go

out and email, you know, this person that I maybe met a couple

of times, or this person who's like a friend, but like, also

could be helpful, you know, to the campaign, or what have you.

They're like, How can I do that? How can I just this is, and I

hear these words all the time, shameless self promotion, and it

is a big hurdle to get over. And what I what I do like for my

clients, first of all, I will offer to write a lot of

communications for them, because sometimes it's just like they

cannot get over that hump of like putting the words down. And

I have just written so many emails and communications as a

start.

Starting point, and then I send it to them, and they're like,

oh, you know what? Like that actually, like that looks really

reasonable. Like that doesn't look like I'm asking for the

moon like that. It's that that just reads like, Oh, I'm excited

about this book that I've written and am now launching,

and I want to share it with you. And I'm like, yes, because

that's all it is. And here's the thing, like your friends and

contacts and whoever else, like people want to help each other.

It's just inside us. So it's not shameless and it's not negative.

And I do have this conversation all the time, like explaining to

people, and then what really feels the deal is when they

start, you know, whether they just send my email exactly as it

is, but from their email address, or, you know, if they

change a couple of words to like, make it more their own.

When they start getting positive responses, it seals it in. It's

like, okay, this isn't negative, this isn't shameless. People

want to help me. People are excited for me, and it kind of

like changes it around. So by the time we like, actually get

to pub, or even post pub, like, people get far more comfortable

with it. But I think it's important for a publicist or a

marketer to be really cognizant of it and just handhold a

little. It's fine. You know, it's fine.

I have a question that's actually not on the list, and

if, and if it's weird, you can cut it, or we can cut it later.

But like, I know that not every author who is self published can

necessarily afford a PR company to to work for them the same way

that another one might. But do you have, like, any suggestions

for someone who maybe needs to do their own PR when they're

first starting out? About my response to that, because

PR is one of those things that I think, if it's done well, it

looks easy and it's actually, it's, I mean, it's a couple of

things, it's a it's a tremendous amount of work. It's such a time

investment. I remember, you know, when I first started in

publicity, way back when I I was, like, shocked by how many

hours I spent on a single campaign. And then the other

thing is that actually, it does take a fair amount of

experience, so it's tough. It's tough to distill it down.

So maybe see if there's like someone you can reach out to for

advice.

People who write books tend to know other people who write

books, right, like, if that's a fairly small world. So, I mean,

that's a place to start. You can reach out to a friend who's

published or self published. I think that you know good

publicity, a publicist worth having is, is expensive. I think

it's, you know, it's true. And the same goes for like,

freelance editors and stuff like that. You know, unfortunately,

it is what it is, but, but, yeah, you know, I think you know

what. You know it's actually, I should make it sound like such a

scary thing. There are a lot of materials just out there in the

public domain about how to write a pitch. Like, yes, in part, you

hire a publicist because you want access to who they have

access to. That's important. But there are a lot of email

addresses and contact information that's like, also

out in the public domain. And you can reach out to people

whose work you read and you think is relevant to what you

were you're working on, and you think that they would be

interested in a copy of your book. And then, and I do think

it's very important to look up standards for pitching, because

when if somebody gets a pitch that's insane, insane sounding

like it hurts the book more than you can even know it's just like

that, that writer will like that you've pitched will be like,

Okay, this is crazy. I would never cover this now, because my

first impression is just so off. Like, even if you did that and

you put the message about out about your book in a really,

like, insane way, and then you it didn't work, and then you

later on hired a publicist, like, you really would have shot

yourself in the foot. It would be hard for that publicist to go

back and fix it, so do the research in advance. Like,

pitching is a pretty structured thing, and luckily, it's easy to

find out how to do it. Hyperlink. Don't put your bury

your hyperlinks, don't, you know, stuff like that. That

makes me mess like, I get stuff and it's

like, oh my god. Like, just very

like,

it's not you can find out how to write a really cohesive pitch. I

think that's what I would say to somebody who doesn't have the

resources to hire a publicist. I would say, do that. There's a

lot of information that can be found in the public domain about

how to do this, and then you can find contact information some I

think that's good advice. Yeah, okay, so how does the media

landscape look different now from how it did when you began

your career, and how have the tools you used to do your job

changed in that time? The media landscape,

obviously, downsizing happens all of the time. You know, when

I first started, we, we did pitch regional newspapers. I

mean, I still pitch them, but it doesn't really yield what it

used to yield. You know, they used to have, you know, there

used to be art stuff that, you know, every in every region, and

they had book coverage. And that was the thing that we did. It's

like, not really, as you know, if I have any coverage in a

regional newspaper now, it's usually because it got picked up

from the wire. That's just kind of the way it goes now. So

that's changed.

There's definitely a smaller pool of people available to

pitch, and it changes constantly. I mean, I'm sure you

guys have talked to other publicists, and it's just like,

you know, you with every pitch that you send out, you get, you

know, with every campaign, you get, like, so many responses

that are like, hey, like, you know, we've cut this position.

It's moved on. So, you know, that is a thing of changing

constantly. I mean, I even have to say, like, in the since the

beginning of covid, things have changed rapidly. And, you know,

we call our new style of living due to covid, you know,

temporary. But like, it's not it's going to be like this for a

long time. So, like, I don't do media mailings anymore, which

was, like, a huge part of my job. You know, every time I

signed up a client, it's like, okay, I need 250 galley copies,

and I'm going to send them out unsolicited to all these

newsrooms around the country. And we can't do that now. I

mean, it just, it wouldn't make any sense. There's nobody there

so and, and I would never pitch or send a book unsolicited to

somebody's home. Like, yeah, if it's somebody I know, and I've

worked with a lot and I have their home address. Like, under

no circumstances would I just send a book to their house.

Like, just, would not do it. So, you know, it's changed in the

past couple months. You know, I pitch first, and I'm really

careful about asking, like, do you want to receive this? Like,

would you prefer, you know, an E version? I'm now having all my

clients line up e versions with their books, you know, which is

its own challenge with the tech. But, you know, I'm definitely

proceeding a lot more gently. I mean, we always proceeded gently

with care, but, like, really gently and with a lot of care.

Now, people are home. They have kids. It's like, you know,

there's a lot of fear in the air still, and it's, you know,

we're, we're just all trying to figure this out. So,

yeah, I remember when we first started with all of this, when I

would send business emails like, if I was supposed to be like,

nudging a client for something, I just wouldn't I would just,

like, send a preliminary How you doing email. Like, let's see how

you're feeling right now before I ask you, like, for your

feedback. Now, inquiring after like health and like, there's

their family's health. And like, you would, I mean, we normally

would never, but now it's like, hey, like, I hope you all are

feeling really well and doing well. And you know, if

everyone's safe, you know, we're, like, discussing safety

with our work contacts. It's just like, not the thing that

we're ever doing. But,

yeah, true, very true. Do we have any more questions, I think

that's it. Do you do I have any more questions? I don't think

so. No, not that I can think of. No. All right, I'm Kimberly. Do

you have anything that you want to plug? No, not particularly,

actually, which I know is a little off brand for a

publicist. But I think if there's anybody,

like, if there, if there are any of your listeners that want to

find out a little bit more about me, my website is Thursday,

hyphen media.com, and there's just like, you know, my bio

again, and some information about my clients and and contact

information for me there as well. Since there's anybody who

wants to dig a little deeper, that's where I can be found. But

that's it,

all right. You can find us on Facebook at hybrid pub Scout, on

Twitter at hybrid pub scout and Instagram at hybrid pub Scout

pod. Please visit our website, hybrid pubscout.com and while

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HPS guide to picking your publishing path. And thanks for

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