Summary:

Political speechwriter and author Simon Lancaster breaks down how leaders and speakers win minds using rhetoric, metaphor and emotional language. We explore why corporate jargon kills trust, how metaphors shape beliefs, and simple persuasion tools speakers can use without sounding manipulative.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

1. What rhetoric is and why it matters for modern speakers
2. Why emotion often persuades more than logic
3. How metaphor shapes perception, behaviour and belief
4. Why corporate language dehumanises and disengages audiences
5. Practical ways to become “metaphor aware” and communicate more humanly
6. The responsibility leaders have when using persuasive language

Memorable ideas and quotes:

1. “Leadership is an emotional contract.”
2. “Metaphor speaks to the subconscious.”
3. The “company as car” metaphor and why it backfires
4. “Rhetoric is morally neutral. Like a pen, it can be used for good or bad.”

Resources mentioned:

1. Simon Lancaster, Winning Minds
2. Simon Lancaster, The Expert’s Guide to Speechwriting
3. Simon Lancaster, You Are Not Human
4. Book recommendation: The Queen of Bloody Everything by Joanna Nadin

Connect with Simon:

1. Website: BespokeSpeeches.com
2. Watch Simon's TEDx Talk: https://youtu.be/bGBamfWasNQ

CHAPTERS:

00:00 Welcome Back: Why This Classic Episode Still Matters

01:14 Meet Simon Lancaster: 20 Years in Political Speechwriting

02:31 From Songwriting to Speeches: Emotion, Metaphor & Simplicity

04:34 What Is Rhetoric? Ancient Persuasion Tools (Rule of Three & More)

07:43 Why Rhetoric Isn’t Taught (and Why That’s Dangerous)

09:15 Rhetoric in Modern Politics: Boris Johnson, Virtues & Moral Neutrality

11:17 What Makes a Bad Speaker? A Critique of Keir Starmer’s Delivery

13:04 Leadership Is a Feeling: Creating Tribe, Trust & Momentum

15:42 Inside a Speechwriter’s World: Process, Voice-Decoding & Client Sessions

19:04 Winning the Instinctive Mind: Making People Feel Safe (Obama vs Trump)

22:01 Different Styles, Same Impact: Barack vs Michelle + Biden & Harris

24:52 Metaphor as the Ultimate Persuasion Tool

25:42 Why Companies Talk Like Cars (and Why It Dehumanises Staff)

27:04 Switching to Human Metaphors: Family, Journeys & Belonging at Work

27:31 Politics as Metaphor: Brexit ‘Family’ vs ‘Prison’ Frames

28:36 COVID Framing Wars: Enemy vs House-on-Fire Metaphors

29:59 Becoming Metaphor-Aware: Listening, Responsibility & Leadership Language

32:32 Trump, ‘Fight’ Rhetoric & the Double Standards of Partisan Interpretation

37:36 Hyperbole, Media Incentives & Rebuilding Connection Through Emotion

39:18 Leadership as an Emotional Contract: Meeting Needs for Hope, Certainty, Belonging

40:59 Inside the Speechwriting Craft: Coaching, Workshops & Real-World Dilemmas

44:31 Books & Dehumanisation: ‘You Are Not Human’ and the Cost of Toxic Metaphors

46:58 Wrap-Up Takeaways: Your Audience Absorbs Metaphors (Plus Subscribe & Next Episode)

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Mentioned in this episode:

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Hello and welcome to Professional Speaking.

2

My name's John Ball.

3

Quick editorial note before we start.

4

This episode is a republished from early

5

downloaded episode in my show's history.

6

Some political and pandemic references

very much reflect that moment, but the

7

principles in the episode are timeless.

8

My promise for you is that today you're

gonna learn how great leaders and speakers

9

use language to move people, and why?

10

Emotion often beats

logic in the real world.

11

Most speakers and leaders still

rely on corporate jargon, flat

12

messaging, and information

dumping that never really lands.

13

Simon Lancaster breaks down rhetoric

metaphor and simple persuasion

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tools that you can use immediately

without sounding manipulative.

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You will leave with clearer language,

stronger emotional impact, and a

16

more credible leadership voice.

17

And I will quickly add this.

18

One great reason for republishing this

show is that audio technology is so much

19

better than it was that I've been able

to clean up the quality of this episode.

20

As well as realign it with

the new branding of the show.

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So let's get into it.

22

It's really exciting to be joined

by a political speech writer.

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He's the author of several amazing books.

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The one I read most recently

is called Winning Minds.

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his name is Simon Lancaster.

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So welcome to the show.

27

Simon Lancaster: Thank you

for having me on, John.

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It's a pleasure.

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John: Listen, I know we haven't even

really covered, um, half of what I

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could have put into an introduction

because you are also a, a professional

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political speech writer and you've worked

with many politicians over the years.

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Simon Lancaster: Yes, that's right.

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That's 20 years.

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It was 20 years ago today, um, that

I started, uh, writing speeches

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and the first person I was writing

for was actually Alan Johnson when

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he was a junior minister at the

Department of Trade and Industry.

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And he was the guy who really sparks

my love and fascination of language.

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He was brilliant with words himself.

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And obviously now he's written loads of.

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Bestselling, uh, books, his autobiography.

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I think he's now out of volume

four or something like that.

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So really, he, he was a great guy to

work with and he inspired me and really

43

got me going 'cause of speech writing.

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John: Fantastic.

45

But when you very first started speech

writing, did you know that that was

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something that you wanted to start doing?

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Or was it something you fell into or just

realized you had a, a bit of a gift for?

48

Simon Lancaster: I, I always

really wanted to be a songwriter.

49

This is where my passion for,

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and I was sending my songs off to

record companies all of the time,

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never got anywhere, never earned

a penny for a difficult song.

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But then all of a sudden I found

that speechwriting is actually, is

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really similar in so many waves.

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You follow your theme, you stick to it.

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Recognized templates.

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The simplicity of the metaphor, the

ideas, language, and moving people.

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And much of what I do actually is

taking techniques from music and

58

turning, turning into language,

really turn it into spoken word.

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John: One of the things that I, that

really relates up that I got from

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the Winning Minds book was about the,

the fact that you mentioned bands,

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the Beatles and Organized Disney have

used language, emotional language,

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creating emotional language very well.

63

They're really good at it, and you talk.

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Talk in that book about creating these

word clouds from these masters who do

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the language of emotion very well, and

that really we should all be focusing

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much more on the emotion than on things

trying to logically persuade people.

67

Simon Lancaster: Yeah, and absolutely.

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And that's what Disney does so well.

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It's what.

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Bands do so well.

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And if you contrast that with most

corporate speak, we're laying down

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the foundations and driving change.

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And if we use our growth wheel and we

execute that in all of our key markets.

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Play in.

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It's just, what the hell

are you saying here?

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But you contrast most corporate rubbish

with the simplicity of the long and

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winding road or Mountain High River

deep or any of the great songs really.

78

And you just see such

a massive difference.

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And so give me a, a load

of corporate bullshit.

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I would kind turn it into some

Lennon and McCartney sector that

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plants an image in people's minds

that moves them emotionally,

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but takes them on some journey.

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That's what you want to do.

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John: Definitely.

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Well see.

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Super important stuff.

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The first thing that I ever

saw you in was your TEDx talk

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on the language of leadership

and, and I was blown away by it.

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Sometimes there's a, a big gap

in levels between TED and TEDx

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stuff, but not in this case.

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This is one of my, definitely

probably is my favorite TEDx talk

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I've ever watched, and one of the

reasons that is before watching that.

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I think it was a few years back before

watching it, I had never encountered the

94

really, the idea or the understanding

of rhetoric and the the art of ancient

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rhetoric and some, as someone who's done

all public speaker trainings and it's

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read up over an influence and persuasion,

like, wow, there's this whole thing

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that's been there for a thousands of years

and no idea about, and so then I got.

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A little bit, uh, hooked on that and

started reading and learning much more

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about rhetoric for, for the audience

who may, some of the audience may

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never have encountered this before.

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Can you tell us a bit more about

what the Art of Rhetoric is?

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Simon Lancaster: I certainly can, and

thank you for your kind words, John.

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It's well about TEDx.

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I'm glad you it so much.

105

Rhetoric is the art of persuasion

and it's something that actually

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used to be taught in every school.

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It was seen as a core part of the

curriculum back in ancient Rome on the

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basis that people couldn't function

at all really in society unless they

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knew how to persuade other people.

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You couldn't be a politician.

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You couldn't be a lawyer.

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You can work in finance or

business successfully unless

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you knew how to persuade people.

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And this is pretty damn obvious.

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It's, but it's something that

through the years has just slick off

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the curriculum almost completely.

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They now have, they talk about oracy

on the curriculum oracy as much about

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speaking as it is about listening.

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It's still not really the dirty arts

of persuasion of a ancient, ancient

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Romans used to get into, but it's,

yeah, it's basically, it's the art of.

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Persuasion.

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There are all these fabulous little tricks

that you can use very, very simply in

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order to make yourself more persuasive

when you're speaking, when you're writing.

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So, for instance, the very simple

idea that if you put things in

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threes rather than four, which

in ancient Roman rhetoric, they

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called tricolon, which sounds a

weird part of the digestion system.

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But yeah, pocket your

arguments into threes.

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I never learned that at school.

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I learned, oh God, all useless, rubbish

at school when, but stuff how to

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persuade people should be right there.

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It should be in the center of the

curriculum really, not only so we

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understand how to persuade people, but

also so we can understand when other

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people are are, are trying to mislead us.

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So trying to deceive us and

particularly now with everything

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that's gone on in the States in the

last week or so, and also what's gone

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in Britain over the last few years.

137

An ability to properly dissect

arguments and being able to sniff out

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this is a load of bullshit actually

is surely a core skill for citizenship

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John: you, you think it should be.

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And one thing that stood out for me

that you mentioned in in your talk, and

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then there's so many break points in

it and anyone hasn't watched it for the

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replay and for the podcast that goes

out, it'll be a link in the show notes

143

as well, so you can go and check it out.

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But you mentioned that there's

only one school in the UK

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that teaches rhetoric anymore.

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Simon Lancaster: Yeah, well I,

yeah, it's Eton places it slap bang

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in in the center of everything.

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So they've even gotten mock House

of Commons as I understand it.

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There a debating chamber that I think

costs 11 million quid, thereabouts,

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some ludicrous sum of money.

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And of course this prepares people

to then reach the top of public life.

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So you just think of the people who

have serious influence in the Uk.

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Today, well, the Prime Minister went

to Eton, the Archbishop of Canterbury

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went to Eton the second, but one heir

to the throne went to Eton, and they're

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all speaking a language of persuasion

that really your average citizen

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ju just doesn't understand at all.

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And this, I think when you look at people,

Boris Johnson in particular, who uses

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rhetoric really, very, very effectively.

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In order to achieve all sorts of

dubious ends, in my view, I think

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people should be aware of it.

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You look at some of the, the way

that he's played the COVID debate

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where it's a literal matter of life

and death and the way that he'll

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create diversions from the issue,

the way that he'll appeal to things.

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Courage, can't we Britain?

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We should be brave.

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We shouldn't be afraid of going out

and let that precisely demonstrates why

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it's something that should be taught.

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John: Yeah.

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And that it is a bit of a contrast

to how you open winning minds.

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Talking about Boris because you at

the start of that, you talk about

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his talk at the Olympics and that

even you and your wife who aren't

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politically fans of his got swept along

with the emotional of the talk there.

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Simon Lancaster: Yeah.

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Because he really taps into the, the

essence of what drives human behavior,

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I think better than any politician,

literally any politician than I can, that

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I can think of in Britain, going back, be

better than Blair, better than Thatcher.

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He gets gets what motivates

people and so he'll pick a virtue;

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Courage, decency.

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Whatever it is, and then he'll

corral people around that.

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His use of humor, his use of metaphor,

his use of imagery, and of course this

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is the thing that when you can use

rhetoric itself, some pe a lot of people

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view rhetoric in the pejorative way.

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They think it's inherently bad, which

it's not on its own it's morally neutral.

184

It's a pen, you can use it to achieve

good things or you can use it to achieve.

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Bad things.

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And I think that overall when

Boris was mayor, he used his

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extraordinary skill in order to

make the capital feel quite proud.

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And he put it into infrastructure

projects and stuff.

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And so it felt pretty good.

190

And I, I think what he's achieved in

the last few years, Brexit was obviously

191

incredibly divisive here in, in the uk

and also what's happened with, with COVID

192

and it's was he really using, has he

been using Rhetoric for good on those?

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Well, different people on different

sides of the political debate

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will reach different views, but

certainly I think when he was mayor,

195

he was special because he had attract,

actually attracted appeal from more court.

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Now he's more, he's speaking to a

smaller group, I think still very

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substantial, and he's still the

better in the field by a mile.

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John: How, how would you rate,

uh, Sir Kier Starmer then

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in terms of speechmaking?

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Simon Lancaster: Um, well,

frankly, within the privacy of this

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conversation, I think it's hope.

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I think he, he fails on

pretty well every counts.

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I don't think he looks at ease with

himself when he's speaking, which

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I think is a, a critical No-no, you

need to, someone, I think to listen

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to, they might have an infectious

energy about them or something, and

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pure summer, I've really struggled to.

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He doesn't look comfortable.

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I don't, when he speaks, he

certainly, he has a patronizing tone.

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I think there's something about his voice.

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A lot of it is about the body language.

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I think that puts me off.

212

I think his speech is warring.

213

I think they're, they're trying to be

all things to all people, but actually

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being nothing to anyone in the process.

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I, I think good speakers do need to

say what they really, really believe.

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From the bottom of their heart, I'm

not sure I've ever seen Kier Starmer

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speak from the bottom of his heart.

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I'm not sure he can.

219

He looks very uptight individual.

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I'm glad to see him.

221

And he's got red face and stuff and

I've come across a few people that

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have worked with him over the years

and currently, I'm not sure he's

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necessarily an easy guy to work with.

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I'm not sure he's very laid

back in the the office.

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Right.

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You know what, I quite uptight and,

and this is a problem for a leader.

227

You do.

228

He.

229

It's bit more Gordon Brown or something

that you feel a bit uncomfortable

230

when you're listening to them.

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We'll see how he does.

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It's still early days, but bearing in

mind in the year that Boris has had

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to see him still Kier Starmer today

234

John: He's really interesting and I

think you, I just, before speaking

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to you today, I've got a Winning

Minds on audio, but, and then, so

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I thought I'd have a refresher.

237

before we spoke just to make

sure that get to the bits that I.

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Really wanted to get to from that.

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and in that book, this, you talk

exactly about this, the, the language

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of leadership and, and how important

this is and how the facts may not

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matter nearly as much as, as the

emotions that you can actually

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get people to feel when you speak.

243

And I was fortunate enough to have

someone else who I managed to persuade

244

to come and be a guest on my show,

a philosopher, an expert in stoke

245

philosophy called Donald Robertson.

246

And one of the reasons why I was so

keen to speak to him, Other than I

247

love Stoic philosophy was also that he

talked about, uh, the birth of public

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speaking, the early days of the Roman

Senate, and that the senators had to

249

learn oration, they had to learn public

speaking skills and talking about Cicero,

250

especially, we focused on Marcus Aurelius

and that he was expected to learn these

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skills and, and to be able to deliver

passionately, but also to deliver

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competently and confidently and that.

253

That skill is still now just as

relevant, if not more so than it, than

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it ever was even all that time ago.

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Simon Lancaster: Yeah, exactly Right.

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And I, I think that too many, too many

leaders who don't do too well, they think

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that all they need to do is just read

out words and that'll get them through

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that, that's and just being bureaucratic.

259

Leadership is about the

feelings you create in people.

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It's about making people feel

they're part of something bigger.

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It's about making people look

to the future with confidence.

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It's a really exciting thing.

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Leadership is the essence of what

brings people together, how communities

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are created, when it's done well.

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And I think for too many people,

leadership is just a title that

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is slapped on their name badge.

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Well, it says Team leader on my badge.

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Therefore, I lead people, no leadership

about creating strong emotional

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feelings in people where they'll

then go the extra mile for you.

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And I know as a speech writer just

in, in my work, when I'm writing for

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someone that I've got a really strong

emotional connection with, I'll be

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thinking about their speech constantly.

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I won't get it outta my

head until it's done.

274

It's their, their burden that I'm

carrying for them where, whereas

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sometimes it can just be a job.

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And if you are a leader that really

wants to create a strong company or

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a strong political movement, you need

that emotional connection with people.

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They need to see that you are part

of the same tribe as them, that you

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share their values, you value the same

thing, but you are on the same journey.

280

You've got the same world's outlook.

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That's where you want to get to.

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John: Yeah.

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I, I, I guess that must be, I, I think

you mentioned it in your TED Talk, it

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must be one of the challenges of being

a speech writer that once the, once

285

the words have left the page and gone

off to the person delivering them,

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the delivery is out of your control.

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Simon Lancaster: Yeah.

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It is.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And sometimes this can be a grimace

type nostalgia, the back of a room

292

kind of chewing your nails off.

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There was a fab picture that I

shared on Twitter recently of

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Justin Trudeau's speech writer.

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Watching him as he was delivering a

speech and she's, she went through

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that literally the whole range of human

emotions from elation to exasperation

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and for proper head in hands moment.

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And, but as is a speech writer, you're

not trying to mold a public image.

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There's a kind of.

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A misconception, a popular misconception

of the speech writer was Machiavellian

301

puppeteer, almost guiding these

leaders into all dark places.

302

And, and really it's much more

that as a speech writer, you

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are, you are an impressionist.

304

This is what you're trying to do, you

are really trying to get in there.

305

So you're trying to find what's your

passion, what really makes you take,

306

what's the thing that wakes you up?

307

In the middle of the night, forget

all of this bullshit about the

308

corporate strategy and all of that.

309

What's the thing that really upsets you

in the world that you would really love to

310

change if, if you had the power to do it?

311

And that's where, where I wanna get

to some my speech writing sessions

312

with clients, actually probably more a

therapy session than an episode of the,

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the, the thick of it or the west wing.

314

John: Yeah.

315

Do do you think it needs to be the case?

316

I don't know.

317

I've never written a speech really

for, for someone else to deliver.

318

But when you're doing that, I

assume, or imagine at least that you

319

get a brief as to what to deliver

from sounds what you're saying.

320

You have some meetings

with the client as well.

321

Do you ever write speeches that might

be delivered by different people?

322

By maybe the person, maybe not knowing

the person who might be delivering it?

323

Simon Lancaster: Regularly,

I've regularly done.

324

It's different with all of my clients.

325

The more access that I get to

the, the principle, the person

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that's actually delivering the

speech, the better it's gonna be.

327

Otherwise, it can feel a little bit,

you are fumbling around in a dark

328

room trying to find a small key.

329

But nevertheless, so there are times where

I'll just, I'll get no brief whatsoever.

330

I don't get access to the person.

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They just want a speech.

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They want some content.

333

And then because everyone has

quite an internet presence now,

334

particularly public figures, I can do

some good detective work or give me

335

some clues to their style of voice.

336

So you always wanna decode their voice.

337

You want to get an idea

of the buzzwords they use.

338

Are they long word people

or short word people?

339

Long sentences or short sentences.

340

What are their metaphors?

341

What are their interests?

342

And then you'll try and weave some of that

in as much as possible and you can do a

343

fair job with that because people do have

a lot of their own content online now, so

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you can anticipate what they're gonna say.

345

But really there's nothing better than

when I've got a client and we'll do a

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little session on Zoom and we can really

talk about the speech and I'll get them,

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I have a series of fun little exercises

that I'll work through with them to

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really find out what they wanna say.

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John: Excellent.

350

I want to come back to your speech

writing process with people.

351

It's something I could actually to even

ask you about before, before we spoke

352

and should have, but the one thing I

do want to definitely make sure we get

353

to is to, to discuss a bit more the,

the language of leadership because you

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talk particularly in the book about

having to overcome the instinctive mind

355

or or have to win over, I should say,

the instinctive mind and the emotional

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mind much more than the logical mind.

357

Although you do talk about

that in the book as well.

358

What do you mean by having to win over

the instinctive mind and emotional mind,

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Simon Lancaster: but to show people

that you are a good person, you don't

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represent the threat to them, that

you have their interests at heart.

361

You are on their side.

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We all have this little caveman

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brain, which is always trying to guide

us to safety and away from danger.

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And so it's speaking to that.

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So it's the archetypal bad leader for me.

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That is the one that will make people

feel petrified, constantly making people

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feel petrified about whether or not

their job is secure, and that to people,

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instinct, friends, they then, that they

could, they they can't be at their best.

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There's no way you can be at your

best if you're feeling afraid.

370

So it's really about showing people

you're a good person or on their

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side, which you can do in all ways.

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If you just think about, let me pick

someone, not a divisive fickle at Trump

373

or a Boris, but someone Obama that

probably most people would agree, but

374

he's universally admire and you just

look at some of the things about him

375

about, if you think back to when we first

saw Obama on the national stage, what

376

was it that in all our minds said, this

is a good guy we can trust this guy.

377

And most people would give different

answers, but I, I would just point to

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that about the way he holds himself, his

body language, his composure, his sense

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of humor, the historic references that he

would weave into, and Lincoln and Kennedy.

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Dr.

381

Martin Luther King and all of this,

and his breathing was so slow and

382

so steady, just listened to that

voice go on for hours, and you just

383

knew that you were in safe hands,

and you contrast that with Trump.

384

We do.

385

Then

386

we don't win.

387

You know,

388

look at Mexico, look at China.

389

Look at these socialists

ripping up our constitution.

390

All this, and you're not,

you're, you're on edge, and it's

391

about making people feel safe.

392

I think when we're talking

about the instinctive minds that

393

you guys can keep them safe.

394

John: Yeah, I, I think definitely

I agree that Obama is, uh, an

395

incredible speech maker and, uh,

very, just, just incredibly watchable.

396

And he and Michelle Obama, she's

also, uh, in, in my opinion, at least

397

a, a very, a very good speech maker.

398

And she has great delivery too.

399

So I dunno if, if she got coached

by Barraack or if she was already,

400

already, maybe she coached

him, but the other way around.

401

But both of them seem to be

very gifted in that part.

402

Simon Lancaster: Yeah.

403

The difference between the

two is stark and it shows the

404

challenge for the speechwriter.

405

'cause you'd never hear Michelle

Obama deliver a Barrack Obama speech.

406

Barrack Obama is high on rhetoric, and

so he uses things, the rule of three,

407

rhetorical repetition, the breathless

sentences, the grandiose metaphors and

408

imagery, whereas Michelle Obama iss

formal, conversational, colloquial,

409

chatty, all of these kind of just,

410

much more relaxed style of voice.

411

Both have speech writers.

412

I've met speech writers to each of them

and had some insights into their drafting,

413

drafting process, but both of them equally

effective in their own way, which does

414

show that it's not that there's a uniform

way of speaking, but rather instead

415

that you need to be true to yourself.

416

You need to bring out your

best self and connect with

417

people emotionally in some way.

418

John: Other than in the political

arena, who is, who else is there that

419

may, you may be able to point to who

is just masterful in, in terms of

420

utilizing rhetoric and, and speechmaking

421

Simon Lancaster: guys?

422

Well, he, he's the man in the moment.

423

He's gonna become president of

the United States next week.

424

Joe Biden actually.

425

I think he's certainly not someone who

anyone could call a natural orator.

426

Most of his career has been characterized

by gaffes when he was speaking and

427

accusations of plagiarism, and yet you

look at his features, now they're stuff

428

to the brim with rhetorical devices.

429

The rule of three, contrast,

metaphor, practically every single

430

line of his speeches utilises

one or other of those devices.

431

John: we'll definitely be seeing a

lot more speeches from Joe Biden and

432

probably from Kamala Harris as well.

433

Simon Lancaster: Yeah.

434

Kamala Harris, I, I, she's someone that

I think has far more of that authentic.

435

Thing, but Biden feels to me

a little bit manufactured.

436

I don't think he can, I don't think it's,

hi, it's his voice that you're hearing.

437

I think he's trying to be a bomber.

438

It doesn't feel very authentic to me.

439

Whereas Kamala Harris, I remember

her speech that she did when she was

440

trying to be president, where she

quoted Bob Marley and talked about

441

her upbringing and what it meant

to come from the, the exotic

442

origins that she came from.

443

And I, I remember being pretty blown

away and thinking, wow, you are special,

444

could see you going all the way.

445

And chances are, I think she'll

become president, won't she?

446

I don't either during this term or,

or if not, I think she'll be very

447

Well they come 20, 24 though, to be

448

prospects of watching another US election

just does more odd in a bit that it

449

was completely by then, who knows?

450

John: One.

451

One of the things that that struck

me the most from learning from you

452

specifically, was about metaphor.

453

And it's not a new concept to me.

454

You know, I've come across metaphor

before, I think most, most of us have,

455

but perhaps not everybody realizes

just how common metaphor is in

456

language and also how persuasive it is.

457

And you really go into some nice detail

in the book about the, how different

458

kinds of metaphor in language elicit

different kinds of emotional feeling.

459

Simon Lancaster: To Metaphor is, I think,

the most powerful form of political

460

communication, but you can do things,

create a rhyme, or put an argument in

461

threes, and it will become more memorable.

462

But if you really want to change the way

that people perceive something, you wanna

463

be changing the metaphors that you use.

464

And so a good example for anyone

who's listening, who's in business.

465

It you, you wanna look at what the

underlying metaphor that is used.

466

When we use a metaphor, we say

something is something which it is not.

467

What you get in a lot of companies

is they will speak about their

468

business as if it's a car.

469

They'll talk about driving change,

accelerating reform, putting turbo

470

charges on having a change of gear.

471

They'll put the components in place.

472

If they're trying to help

staff, they might issue a

473

toolkit, an engagement toolkit.

474

What's an engagement toolkit?

475

A mouth.

476

And so they, they'd speak in using

the metaphor of company as car.

477

And that feels great if you are a

leader or you're in charge of strategy.

478

'cause there would be nothing more

seductive than to imagine that running a

479

company is as easy as driving a car, that

all you need to do is flick the ignition.

480

Put your foot down, change gear.

481

You can go wherever you want to go.

482

It's an illusion, but it's

comforting for the leaders.

483

So they'll use that metaphor.

484

We're driving this through.

485

If you are in that organization, that

metaphor says to you, you are a nut, a

486

bolt, a component, a piece of machinery.

487

You are there, fulfill a function.

488

You're not a human being.

489

You are dehumanized, you are not human.

490

And so for them, they

will reject that metaphor.

491

They will not wanna listen when

you're foot back metaphor going on.

492

So what metaphor?

493

Could be better.

494

Well, metaphors of family for a company.

495

So speaking about all of us together,

where we're going, creating a sense of

496

momentum, the long and winding road,

mountain, high River, deep of the imagery

497

that we were talking about that that

could resonate more, not in a cheesy way,

498

but just stripping out some of the awful

language and introducing it with that.

499

And you'll change the

way that people feel.

500

And this is when you get to, when you

look at a lot of political debates,

501

you see the actual argument which

was is often about no more than

502

a different metaphorical outlook.

503

So with Brexit, if you were a remainder,

the EU was a family in which kept

504

us safe, was our home in which we

were loved with family members.

505

If you didn't the eu, was a prison in

which we were trapped and chained set

506

to the shackles of a big bureaucracy.

507

We needed to take back control,

have a clean break from that prison.

508

And so they're different

metaphorical outlooks.

509

if you can change people's

metaphorical outlook, you can

510

shift the dial on an issue.

511

And I've, I've done.

512

Heaps of different research projects

where I've tested all students.

513

Should we leave the European Union?

514

How much should we give to the European

Union where you just introduce a

515

metaphor or change the metaphor and

you shift people's reactions that

516

by doing nothing more than either

in certain or change a metaphor.

517

So very, very powerful.

518

Of course, with COVID at the moment, a

lot of the con conceptualization in the

519

popular imagination is metaphorical.

520

It's an invisible enemy.

521

We're fighting.

522

We're combating.

523

We've now got the, the vaccine

we've been jabs army with the front

524

page of, of the newspapers today.

525

This is a, a metaphor.

526

It's not the only metaphor that could

have been used to talk about COVID.

527

When COVID first came in, people

were talking about a house on fire.

528

We were walking around a burning

house, which I think is really good

529

'cause fires spread very, very quickly

and they fre lives and you need to

530

quickly get in there and extinguish it.

531

I think that leads you to

very, very decisive action.

532

I think the war metaphor actually

led to everyone just being shocked.

533

What do we do?

534

Froze And it worked for Boris Johnson

and for leaders around the world,

535

'cause it enabled them to take

emergency powers and set the context.

536

For taking emergency powers, it

grabbed everyone's attention.

537

Did it get us all doing everything

that we should have done?

538

Not I do.

539

I dunno.

540

Genuinely, I, I dunno, I've not done

research on COVID metaphors specifically.

541

I've been watching them with

fascination and always curious,

542

oh, I wonder what would've,

543

what the effect would've been

if they'd have shifted to this

544

metaphor or that metaphor.

545

John: Yeah, it's, it's amazing just how

much influence in life a, that can have.

546

And I think one thing she said in the

book is that we, we just don't even notice

547

how much it gets used in conversation.

548

The frequency with which we'll

actually deploy at or hear

549

metaphors in conversation.

550

Most of it, you might notice some

of them, but you certainly don't

551

notice all of it because we're so

used to speaking in that language.

552

But the idea that, metaphor could

potentially be the thing that

553

makes the difference to whether,

whether you act, react positively

554

or negatively to something as well.

555

It's like, well, we should definitely

all be checking in with our

556

metaphors and listening out for that.

557

Do you find as someone who does

this thing professionally, that you

558

are always listening out for that,

or, or do you actually consciously

559

have to tune yourself into it?

560

Simon Lancaster: I notice

metaphors are probably a little

561

bit more often than I should do.

562

I, I try to remove that filter as much

as I can, but it's a bit like a musician

563

listening to music that you might

recognize a particular chord change or a

564

particular genre or, or whatever it is.

565

It doesn't ruin your pleasure

of conversation or anything.

566

I don't go to dinner parties

and say, you are using a war

567

metaphor for your a bad person.

568

John: Of course,

569

Simon Lancaster: I wasn't

gonna ask Pack, I don't think.

570

John: It could create some interesting

situations at the dinner parties

571

where you might have to deploy

some of your own metaphors, uh,

572

to try and so smooth things over.

573

But uh, yeah, in

interesting to notice that.

574

So I love this whole idea of metaphor

and that it gets used so much.

575

What do you think people actually

do to become a bit more aware

576

of that or to try and maybe.

577

Master might not be the wrong word, but

to start developing some competency with,

578

with metaphor and how they deploy them.

579

Especially as a lot of the people who

I in the podcast who are doing either

580

the presentation work, public speaking

work, uh, uh, workshops, trainings,

581

things, things where they are actually

speaking in front of other people.

582

Simon Lancaster: Yeah, I think

awareness is actually the first thing.

583

If you are metaphor aware, then

you've got a hell of an an advantage

584

over a lot of people 'cause

most people are not aware of it.

585

And then taking it forward to recognising

your responsibility as a leader that

586

the language which you use really deeply

affects people's state of mind and the

587

way that they feel You are metaphor,

you are speaking to their subconscious.

588

If you are creating.

589

All of this petrifying war imagery,

which then reinforced day by day you

590

are getting into people's dreams and

that's, it's quite a responsibility that

591

leaders have the language that they use.

592

So just watching out for that and but

behaving a good human being, you know,

593

really, there's a lot of F at the

moment, obviously about Trump and the

594

language which he used his speech on

6th of January was this, a speech that

595

actually incited people to go in riots.

596

Now I've gone through that speech.

597

It wasn't actually to my eyes,

it wasn't too different to all of

598

the other rallies features that

Trump has given over the years.

599

He's always used war metaphor.

600

He's always used fight metaphor.

601

When he launched his.

602

campaigned to become president at

603

he used a fight metaphor for throughout

the introduction he used, as I recall,

604

he used the word beat six times.

605

He used the word kill twice.

606

And the word victory twice, all within

the first 200 words of his speech.

607

So he's always used this fighting

language, but of course the case

608

against Trump now is that he wasn't

using Metaphor when he was speaking.

609

On 6th of January, he was

saying, we've gotta fight.

610

We've gotta fight.

611

I have to say this to me as someone who's

been working in this field and thinking

612

about metaphor writing speeches for

politicians going back years, for me,

613

this was not an appeal to insurrection

what he did on 6th of January.

614

This was a standard bog

standard Trump speech.

615

He was using a war metaphor.

616

We often conceptualize politics as a war.

617

We have done for years,

Joe Biden's whole campaign.

618

When Joe Biden launched his

619

Battle for the Soul of America.

620

I, I don't think he was appealing

to people to get out machine

621

guns and go and start shooting up

the White House or, or whatever.

622

But again, this, it does show why you've

gotta be careful because I think there's

623

a real danger as well that in today's

partisan world, we judge people on the

624

other side of the argument to the one that

we're on very, very differently to the

625

way that we judge people on our own side.

626

A lot of the people that were condemning

Trump's rhetoric on the 6th of

627

January were cheering to the rafters

628

when Arnold Schwartzenegger earlier

this week gave a speech in which he was

629

literally brandishing a sword, right?

630

Yeah.

631

If Trump done that, I think there

there'd have been questions asked, so.

632

We've always just gotta be careful

about the consequences of language

633

and just appreciate and that everyone

looks at things a a different way.

634

I, I have my political views,

I'm not tribal about politics.

635

Some people are, but I

always try to be aware.

636

What do people on the other side think?

637

And I actually have more friends probably

in political parties I disagree with

638

than with my own favored political view.

639

And I think that thing is

really important as well.

640

Just recognize everyone's

viewpoint is valid and it's

641

just different perspectives.

642

John: Yeah.

643

Yeah.

644

I, I have, uh, uh, pea brands in

the US who are Trump Supporters.

645

I, I don't see it.

646

I don't get it.

647

But they're lovely people and well,

they see something that I don't, or they

648

get, they're getting information or,

or news in a way that I don't, and you

649

know, they're acting on their beliefs.

650

Uh, but as people, I'm not gonna turn

them away just because they vote for

651

someone who I have told very much.

652

Uh, and same in the UK as well,

is it's not tribal about politics.

653

I, I have my political beliefs,

uh, whatever they may be.

654

And they tend to be fairly

left of center, I guess.

655

But that's a healthy debate, and we

should be able to have conversations

656

with people we don't agree with

and, and have civil conversations

657

with people who we don't agree with

because we just might learn something.

658

This idea that we're always right

or we can't change our minds

659

about something is, is dangerous.

660

In my opinion.

661

We, we should always be able to

change our minds about things.

662

We should always be

open to new information.

663

Yeah, I, i with you that

664

Simon Lancaster: well can be

really helpful here, John.

665

'cause metaphor can give you

the clues into someone else.

666

It's suspected when you analyze them.

667

You, you, when you, if you have a

remainer saying this is suicide,

668

we're committing suicide, leaving

the European Union as many remainder

669

said, and then you have someone else.

670

No, we are breaking free each,

have these wholly fictitious

671

narratives running in their heads.

672

In actual fact, leaving the European

Union, it's, it's definitely not suicide

673

and it's definitely not leaving a prison.

674

Both sides are hugely exaggerating

and distorting the real position.

675

Chances are we'll leave

the European Union.

676

Life will go on as ever it did, you know?

677

And no one much will really notice,

apart from a few people that may

678

be worked in the European Union

representing the uk, government

679

John: life will go

680

Simon Lancaster: on.

681

But if we have things, these powerful

narrative running in our head.

682

It then I was saying it

gets into our subconscious.

683

It wakes us up in the middle of the

night, and so hence the responsibility

684

that leaders have to speak carefully.

685

John: That's really interesting that,

that you say that and I idea of listening

686

to that and, and sometimes maybe

pulling apart some of that, metaphor

687

that people are using and saying,

you know, the hyperbole is, is used

688

so commonly now and, and really it.

689

To some degree now.

690

Great, great exaggerations of

hyperbole and I think that's maybe

691

one of the, the things that is behind

the extreme levels of divisiveness.

692

But we are bombarded

with that all the time.

693

I think, in fact, I think a lot of media.

694

So I think if they don't use that

grand hyperbolic metaphor that

695

they won't get eyes, they won't get

clicks, they won't get audience.

696

Uh, and so we see it all the time

and maybe people think that have

697

to go bigger and bigger and always

over exaggerating something that may

698

not actually be important at all.

699

Simon Lancaster: Yeah, absolutely.

700

And it culminates in Trump where

it culminates in, in Brexit.

701

But you have this, I'm gonna outdo you.

702

You get, it's a wall

for rhetoric, isn't it?

703

John: Yeah, what what's been interesting

to, to me over the last year years is

704

how much more people want to connect now.

705

People really want to feel more, you

know, I work in the world where I have

706

to do a lot of marketing and promotion

and work and things like that, and

707

people really want to feel connected.

708

They really want to have relationship with

people perhaps much more than ever before.

709

I think things were already heading

that way, and maybe COVID stuff has

710

accelerated that and you much, many more

people focusing much more now on, on

711

marketing stuff with relationship getting.

712

Getting known, actually having some

connection with people and all the things

713

that you talk about here, I think are

super important in being able to do that.

714

Uh, if you're not, if you're not

using the right kinds of metaphors,

715

if you're not delivering and uh, and

really grabbing people by the emotions,

716

then you're not gonna be nearly as

impactful as someone who can do that.

717

Simon Lancaster: Yeah, absolutely.

718

Yeah.

719

That need for connection brings us back.

720

Like to what, when we were talking about

music to start off with, music brings

721

people together, it creates this sense of.

722

In action.

723

It meets within us some, some spiritual

need, an emotional need, and a desire

724

to feel connected with other people.

725

The people do love the same bands.

726

They're part of a clock, and they'll

show their members of that club by

727

the fashions that they take on the way

they dress, the way they behave, and,

728

and I think that's what leaders even

in, in companies should be looking

729

to create that sense of connection.

730

Leaders are there, leadership

is an emotional contract.

731

You recognize what people's emotional

needs are, and then you meet those needs.

732

So at the moment, people are

feeling alienated, isolated.

733

So the leaders that offer them a sense

of connection are the ones that are gonna

734

win, the ones that are gonna be heard,

735

'cause they're meeting

people's emotional needs.

736

People are feeling

afraid about the future.

737

So they'll look for leaders who

make them feel hopeful, optimistic.

738

People are feeling confused, so they'll

look for leaders that provide a sense of

739

stability and certainty when they speak.

740

And it's this sense, the idea that

leadership is an emotional contracts,

741

basically where the leader meets people's

emotional needs and in return for that,

742

they then get people's support, is is I

think, quite a useful one when leaders are

743

thinking about how to position themselves.

744

So, okay, what do people need here?

745

What do you really, really, and then.

746

Thinking about their

communication from that way round.

747

John: Yeah, definitely.

748

Uh, I, I wanted to, to come back.

749

I, I know we haven't gone forever,

Chang here as much as that.

750

I'm loving speaking to you.

751

I did wanna come back to that.

752

You do work privately with people, uh,

and you also run workshops on teaching

753

speech writing, which I think, uh, I

haven't really seen anyone else has much.

754

There's too much competition

in that field, right.

755

Simon Lancaster: No, there's not really.

756

I think within the cabinet, most cabinet

members of the cabinet have their

757

own speech writer, and I think I've

probably trained about 80% of cabinet

758

speech writers going back even today.

759

So there's not an awful lot

of competition out there.

760

But I think the thing is, is that people

want to learn from a speech writer who

761

does it and who has done it at that level.

762

That I think speech writing,

because it's creative, you, you.

763

You need that, the awareness

of what it's really to do.

764

Otherwise it's learning cello from

someone who doesn't play the cello,

765

who's never played the cello.

766

That fine might have read the books,

but if you haven't faced that horror

767

of the blank screen or, or indeed the

clients whose read your piece of work

768

that you slaved over for a whole weekend

and they just sent you a curt text

769

message saying, what a load of shit.

770

Get Bill to write unless look that

you have that lived experience of

771

what it really means to be a speech

writer, then you, you can't get it.

772

So I now do coaching sessions

on, on Zoom with speech writers.

773

Very, very personal and we work

through dilemmas together every

774

day speech writer dilemmas.

775

You've got this really boring text,

how can we make this more lively?

776

You have an audience that feels,

what imagery could we give them

777

to make them feel, and we do

all of this stuff together.

778

And I've done a couple today actually.

779

They're great fun.

780

They're, I love them.

781

And because they're wonders with Zoom

is that, the before I used to run my

782

workshops in London and people would

travel in from around the world for

783

them, and now it's no trouble at all.

784

So every week we'll start with

the, like, how, how did it

785

go last week and every week

786

They're coming in and they're, oh my

God, I did this thing for my boss.

787

She said it was fantastic.

788

Absolutely fantastic.

789

And then we'll talk

about how to develop it.

790

So it is really cool and I love doing it.

791

Actually.

792

I think I've been writing

speeches now for 20 years.

793

And it's lovely to help the next

generation along 'cause I was

794

in my like mid twenties or so

when I started and it's lovely.

795

I really love it when you've got

people who are just trying to find

796

their way in the, the speech writing

world and being able to show them this

797

wonderful treasure chest of techniques,

which is so once you get into it

798

is so enlightening and it doesn't

just concern speech writing as well.

799

It's so much about our modern life,

not just politics for business and

800

our personal relationships, Richard.

801

Rhetoric where rhetoric plays a role

and so it, yeah, I love it Anyway.

802

John: Fantastic.

803

Now I, that sounds for something I

do myself, but if, if someone thinks,

804

oh yeah, that sounds really good.

805

I'm either thinking, maybe Simon would

write a speech for me, or maybe I can

806

come and learn speech writing from Simon.

807

How, how can they find out more about,

808

Simon Lancaster: you can go to my

website, it's www dot bespoke speeches.

809

Com bespoke speeches.

810

You see what I did there?

811

I and you?

812

Yeah.

813

I can find my number, my email

address, and this is what I do.

814

It's what I love doing.

815

If you've got a speech that you are really

struggling to get going with, or you

816

professionalize and insight over it at the

last stage, then it's, it's what I do and

817

it's written what I love doing as well.

818

John: what has been the, the last great

thing you read that made an impact on you?

819

Simon Lancaster: The last great thing I

read that made an impact on me, I did.

820

I, I just, I, oh my goodness.

821

I just read an amazing book, actually

called The Queen of Bloody Everything

822

by a writer here, a British writer

who's a friend called Joanna Nadin.

823

She used to write speeches for

Tony Blair Downing Street, back in

824

the early naughties, and she since

started writing fiction and it

825

was, it's such a moving book that.

826

It touches all of your

emotional buttons to it.

827

For someone of my, me and Joe are

similar ages and she captures the

828

seventies growing up in the seventies

and eighties and coming through the

829

present day so well in that book, and

so I'm recommending that to everyone

830

now, I'm not gonna re think he.

831

Book I I, apart from my own, which

832

John: well, yeah, indeed.

833

Apart from your own, I'll

also include links to, to your

834

recommendation and to your books.

835

I have yet to read.

836

you are Not human.

837

I What is the, the essence

of that book, just quickly.

838

Simon Lancaster: That's all actually about

the power of metaphor and dehumanization.

839

I was motivated to write that

book after Trump's ascendancy.

840

When he was talking about some of

the foul language that he was using,

841

call it his derogatory talk about

the women that I won't use here.

842

That's that thing.

843

But also here in, in the uk some of the

debate that we had about, immigrants

844

as cockroaches, Katie Hopkins,

David Cameron talking about a swarm.

845

So I was looking about at, at metaphors,

ways that groups of people within society.

846

Dehumanized.

847

And so we have a hierarchical

structure of humanity, which had sick

848

people as vegetables, poor people as

scum, women as bitches, and so on.

849

And I track about the history of

the, the metaphor and then talks

850

about the consequences, use and

consequences of the present day.

851

So it's quite a dark walk, but really

one that anyone who's worried about

852

the state of the world now and the

responsibility that politicians have to

853

speak carefully with the metaphors they

use should really have a look at it.

854

And with all the stuff about Trump, was

he using metaphor when he said fight

855

or literal puts it right into focus.

856

John: Yeah.

857

Yeah.

858

Well, uh, I now whetted my appetite

to, so I'm definitely gonna have

859

to go and read more of that.

860

Simon, thank you so much

for all of your time today.

861

It's been a real pleasure speaking

to you and I hope that we do get to,

862

to chat again in the future and I'm

certainly gonna be looking forward

863

to reading more of your books and

and looking out for future works

864

and speeches from you as well.

865

Simon Lancaster, thank you so much.

866

Simon Lancaster: Lovely.

867

Thanks a lot John.

868

It's been a pleasure.

869

John: Well, that was Simon Lancaster.

870

I'm very happy to say that I had

the honor of hosting Simon's very

871

first podcast, guest appearance.

872

It's easy to see why this episode

became one of the most downloaded

873

in the history of the show.

874

And I have cleaned up some of the

elements of this as well to make it

875

an easier, cleaner listen for you too.

876

And if you want a simple

takeaway, it's this.

877

Your audience doesn't

just process your words.

878

They absorb your metaphors and your

emotional signals and your certainty,

879

whether you earned it or not.

880

If you found this valuable,

please do two things.

881

Firstly, make sure you're subscribed to

the show so you don't miss what's coming

882

next, which is gonna be my interview

with one of the most downloaded Ted Talk

883

speakers ever, Julian Treasure, and share

the episode with one speaker or leader

884

who you know would value being able

to improve their communication skills.

885

Thanks for listening.

886

My name's John Ball.

887

I'll see you next time.