“What do we need to be careful of” was the question I asked the final three members of the expedition. It was a very interesting question to ask Laura Fleming, Aparna Uppaluri and Katrina Webb who almost didn’t join. Laura because she has avoided women only groups all her life. Aparna because she avoids “monolithic definitions of what it is to be a woman”. And Katrina because earlier this year she had “run herself into the ground and didn’t have spare energy for anything.” I am glad they have joined because they will be watching with eagle eyes to make sure we avoid the booby traps.

Introduction 0:01

I'm so glad to be part of this group.

Introduction 0:04

Because women are just more democratic. When even when they lead, they listen. Is silenced by itself. What are you saying about me? If I'm not honest and good to myself. I will speak because that is the only way. Is enough is enough.

Introduction 0:22

This is Women Emerging.

Julia Middleton 0:26

Welcome, welcome, welcome. On Saturday, we met as a group, the 24 women on the expedition met as a group for a number of hours on Saturday. It was our first meeting, all 24 women committed to finding an approach to leadership that resonates with women, so that more women say, if that's leadership, i'm in. The first meeting was glorious. That's all I'm saying. It was glorious. Let me process it and then I'll tell you more. But certainly, I promised you at the beginning of this, that through these podcasts, you would meet all 24 women. And I am delivering on that promise today by interviewing the last three members that you haven't heard from so far, Laura, Katrina, and Aparna. But I thought that the really interesting thing would be to talk to them about what, as they start on the expedition, what are the hurdles that they anticipate, and that we must overcome?

Julia Middleton 1:35

The first woman is Laura, who's an engineer, a serious heavyweight engineer in the energy business. And we almost missed out on Laura for the expedition. Because what she now sees as a hurdle, at one stage, she saw as a real serious obstacle to her even becoming part of it.

Julia Middleton 2:00

So Laura, we're almost off on the expedition. It started, right. And if the truth be told, we almost lost you to the expedition, didn't we? You almost didn't join. And it's because you were worried that we were going to call fall into a trap. And I feel that the great thing about having you on the expedition is that you got to make sure we're not gonna fall into this trap. Is that fair?

Laura 2:28

That's absolutely right, spot on. The reason why I almost didn't join the expedition, is that actually what scared me and maybe concerned me is that it's a women only expedition. And I don't like exclusive clubs, and I really am petrified of professional women only groups, as I am petrified of men only groups. And it was one of the things that that really scared me about the expedition.

Julia Middleton 3:06

First, why petrified?

Laura 3:07

Petrified because I really thrive in a group that is diverse, and where I can see and hear different points of view and different angles coming. And I always struggle to see that in a less diverse group, and also women only groups kind of remind me from from school days, and maybe, you know, elements of girl only groups that I really, really didn't enjoy. And as a result of that I've always veered towards either diverse groups, or maybe even, you know, more male groups.

Julia Middleton 3:11

Why have you joined the expedition then, after all?

Laura 3:54

So after all that, I've joined the expedition, because actually I've realised, through my work, and through the things that I'm doing outside work. Actually, that the views of women are very poorly represented. But not only that, in terms of the views, especially, there are qualities within women and that women bring into the leadership debate, if you like, that actually really benefit organisations and companies. And actually crucial if we look at how societies are changing and that these are incorporated for the greater good and making the world a better place. We need to actually really bring out the female and feminine traits into leadership generally, and actually, that doesn't really matter whether it's feminine or masculine. I also see it as a responsibility for myself to you know, bring these pieces to the leadership debate and actually have this now integrated. And at the same time, I believe that bringing out the feminine traits into leadership or then at the same time also encourage other women to join leadership and actually also step up into leadership roles. So it's a, it's a two pronged approach, and therefore, totally not exclusive.

Julia Middleton 5:23

And I would think that you're going to be on the lookout over the next few months. And what are you going to be on the lookout for. Are you going to be looking out for how do we bring femininity into leadership without making leadership feminine? Does that make sense?

Laura 5:40

Absolutely. So if we look at for example, if I can name a particular trait that sits on the feminine side, which is collaboration. In the world that we're moving into, initially, we already live in, collaboration is key across absolutely everything that we do. Actually, women have a huge amount there to offer where they say, you know, men can learn. But we need to also not have that exclusive to women. So it needs to be brought together, together with the men. And then what are we looking out for during an expedition is that, you know, the type of leadership, I suppose that we we start to develop that resonates with women is not going to be exclusive for women, but we will be fully resonating not just with women, but also with men.

Julia Middleton 6:37

And you've spent your life in the energy world.

Anna 6:40

Yes, I have a very male dominated energy world with still lots and lots of issues around diversity and inclusivity.

Julia Middleton 6:51

And does that mean you've become increasingly radical?

Laura 6:53

I think actually, maybe in the last couple of years, I have. And actually, I can explain why only, I say only in the last couple of years, I think what we're very good as women, maybe as a species, as well as assimilating, so we kind of adapt to our surroundings. And, you know, maybe even as women start behaving a bit like men and start taking over those traits. But actually, what I've come to realise over the last couple of years is that it's only going to get me so far and, and actually need to show up as to who I am, and what I bring in, in order to really come to my full potential. And not just for my benefit, but to the benefit of the company that I work for, and the people I work with, and for what is my long term vision and my long term goal,

Julia Middleton 7:47

Laura, the radical.

Laura 7:48

Radical, who would have thought that?

Julia Middleton 7:51

Has this changed how you lead, Laura?

Laura 7:53

This last week has been so interesting, because I've actually seen the effect of using my voice and actually doing that, what I just said, you know, showing up as myself. And it's been it's been amazing. And just to give you an example, particularly is sketching, basically what it is that we're trying to do, particularly in this hydrogen business, how it gets us toward, to work towards the future, rather than focusing on the here and now in a particular project, and it seemed like no one had really thought about that. And not just keeping it in my head, but actually sharing that with the rest of the team is kind of galvanised the whole team together. And this happened in a matter of an afternoon, I was absolutely astonished how quickly this happened, and also kind of showing the vulnerability and saying, well, I don't know and I don't have all the answers, but I'm asking you to help and share your ideas. And let's put it together and see where we go. And just not the fear of speaking up and sharing and not thinking that you need to have all the answers before you can speak up. This has just been incredible, really.

Julia Middleton 9:16

There are many women who avoid women only groups, and the expedition has to appeal to them as well. So it is absolutely crucial. As you can see that Laura is one of our members. The next person is Katrina. She also almost missed out on the expedition for very different reasons. She was ill and has been ill for some time. She's a Paralympian who are she'll explain to you largely ran herself into the ground. But let's start by unpicking this super woman outfit she once was.

Julia Middleton 9:55

Katrina, if there's a real danger that the expedition becomes a sort of intellectual pursuit and it forgets that we are all physical human beings. You told me once that you once wore, this is years ago I think, wore a superwoman suit. How does someone con you into doing that?

I did, actually, Julia, a friend of mine, a photographer was putting together a series around actually gender issues. And she asked if I could be, you know, her subject. And I did, I wore a Wonder Woman outfit, we took photos in the supermarket of me doing the shopping, we took photos of me at work, we took photos of me holding the baby, hanging in the washing out, lying around the city. And then, you know, coming home and being that sexual goddess to my husband, and you know, talking about women trying to do everything, can be everything with a beautiful smile on my face. And everything was happy, and there was no problems at all. So isn't that interesting? Some 20 years ago, I did that and have things changed? I'm not really too sure.

Not really too sure. I think the thing that's so interesting is that you sort of, with all talk about well being, and it's so strong, what about the sense of, you know, pill it on, I can take it all. Wellbeing, yeah, yeah. And that's what we all do. Yeah, yeah. But piling it on. And, almost, I'll deal with the physical. Does any of that resonate?

Yeah, look, you know, I mean, it's a challenge for all of us. And particularly over my career, coming from high level sport, I certainly realised coming from sport that you couldn't pile everything on because your product was your physical. And so that was a wonderful background to have to know if I keep piling stuff on as an athlete, when I get out there on the track and try and run 400 metres, and run a personal best at a games in front of the world. I'm not going to actually achieve that. And you know what I didn't in Sydney, Julia, I actually lost. I didn't lose gold, because I never had it. But I won silver, and one bronze in Sydney. And the major thing after coming back from those games is I was really disappointed because I actually didn't even run a personal best. So after those games, I actually sat down with my psychologist because I felt like I'd failed in some way. Because I didn't run a personal best and we unpacked you know how my life was then. And this is without kids. This is I was married, but without kids. And I had said yes to every opportunity that had come my way. And you know, I was younger than I was 23 at this point in time. And I really did ignore my physical, I was getting to training, I was getting to work, I was studying. And when my psychologist sat down with me, and we looked at everything that I was doing, everything that I had on my plate leading into the Sydney Paralympic Games, she said to me, Katrina, there is no way you could win a gold medal, there is no way you could do a personal best because you're performing, you know, at a silver level, or, you know, worse level in every aspect of your of your life. Look what you've taken on. And I looked at it and going, like it was such an incredible learning. And from that time, she said, if you want to be known as being a silver medalist, or you know, a bronze medalist, not even a medalist, if you want to be okay at things, then just keep things out there as they are. But I know deep down that you would love to get back to that gold medal level. So you need to make some significant changes.

So I did and I put a lot of boundaries in place, and got back to the 2004 Athens Paralympic Games, and did get to a personal bests level with a gold medal, which was extraordinary. And I did learn a lot of things throughout that process as an athlete to really make sure I took care of my physical. I've taken them through now to my life now without being an athlete. However, if I don't have those checks and balances in place, I can, you know, easily go back to that default of having too much on my plate and ignoring, you know, that physical and thinking I can do everything and be that Superwoman. And I just can't.

And there's a danger that if we produce an approach to leadership that resonates with women, it's sort of women who are superhuman, and women who ignore the physical and perversely, earlier this year, there was a real chance you couldn't come on the expedition with us?

Absolutely. Yeah, look, I was, you know, I have some great tools and excellent tools. As I said, as someone that has won gold on numerous occasions, I have a pretty good resource kit. And up until the start of this year, my resources really helped me. You know, I've had storms in my life and my resources that I had, were able to get through those storms, but the start of this year, I had five storms that really just bowled me over. And it was really difficult. There was moments where I couldn't even get off the couch. I was so fatigued and exhausted that, you know, even just surviving was what I had to do each day. And it was difficult and I know Julia, you were sending me messages to tell me about this wonderful expedition. I could hardly respond to those messages. It was a really, really scary situation because I didn't know how long I was going to be there for and how I was going to get out of it. And I did. But I've definitely learned even from that situation, that I've got to put more things in place and someone like me who has been, you know, very successful at it. Now I've got three kids, and I do run my own business and life is extremely busy, that there's more things that I need to put in place to really take care of that physical.

Just going back, it was, of course, in a funny way, if I'm right, and if I'm not interfering too much, and asking too much personal questions. It was sort of multiple storms that all sort of came into a perfect storm, wasn't it? It's funny, it's the sort of boiling frog thing, isn't it? You just become and you don't notice that there's too many coming?

Yes, Julia. Now I've had some time to, you know, to get through it. And my health has come back. I've really reflected on the last two years. And the last two years has been, you know, extremely difficult. There's been so much uncertainty, I worked incredibly hard. You know, for someone that works in an industry that brings people together and to have to, you know, really use that would pivot to change. Even when I put things on that get cancelled, and then just the the amount of uncertainty, I flew to Tokyo to work with Channel Seven at the Paralympic Games, which is amazing. Then I came home to do 29 days of quarantine. So it was like, everything I did in the last two years, I did well, but I came home and my energy was being depleted more and more. And by the time I got to December, last year, I was pretty tired. I was hoping to have really good time rest over the Christmas break, then had a musculoskeletal injury, which did come about from me doing a lot of computer work. And even being a physio, I should have watched out for that, that caused my sleep to be disturbed. I then got Coronavirus on top of that. And one of the most difficult things was getting a diagnosis, a difficult diagnosis of my dear mother, and having to you know, to look at all of that. So it wasn't only the physical, it was emotional and mental that really, you know, took a toll. And I really struggled with that, I really struggled with having to surrender. I'm someone that for my life to date has been able to do do incredible things, I have an amazing amount of energy. And I've got wonderful things in place, that probably what I realised were maintaining my level of energy. And when this perfect storm hit me, there wasn't anything else I could do. In fact, it was probably the universe saying, have a rest, have some time to you know, to rest and recover. And, and come out of this in a different way. I actually use it as a reset. And I'm still in that now. And I'm asking myself, you know, a lot of really good questions around. Well, what does? You know, for me, who's someone that spends a lot of time speaking and consulting, in my own business, you know, i've never asked myself this question is, what is booked out? You know, if I got a certain amount of bookings in a month, I would take them if I could physically get to them, you know, if I could physically, you know, do one after the other, I would take them. And now I'm really asking questions around well, what is booked out? Like, I've never put boundaries in place like this before. And I know if I don't, and I can continue on working in that way. I you know, having that, that crisis at the start of the year, that time to actually, you know, surrender, I know that could happen. And it was a bit of a wake up call to say what are what are those new boundaries? What would I like to do? What what is soul food for me that when I take the time to do those things in a way that could really keep me going at a deeper level, instead of just having those maintenance things like you doing a walk every day or doing some yoga, it's actually really taking the time to go another level and another layer, which I think is incredibly important for women is nurturing our own souls and maybe mothering ourselves.

Mothering ourselves is a good and useful expression. Without doubt the expedition must avoid this hurdle of the super, the super woman. None of us want to be anything to do with it. Now, I think sit back and listen to Aparna and Pamela, whose hurdle is that she's demanding that the expedition does not just focus on external issues of leadership, but that it looks hard for the tools of leadership that women have within themselves. She explains this much better than I do. But I started by reminding her I have an expression of something that she had said to me when we first met. And asked her to explain it, she said, we have to avoid the monolithic definitions of what it is to be a woman. I'll say that, again, we have to avoid the monolithic definitions of what it is to be a woman. What does she mean?

When we hear the phrase women's leadership, the focus ends up on leadership rather than woman half the time, right? We see that all the time, right? The focus is on what it is that she's going to do, but they forget who the she is. And I think this is a universal experience, because leadership is such a coveted quality. It is a quality that is put on a pedestal, but we don't actually really know what it means. And then everybody is enamoured by that quality. Everyone aspires to have that quality, and then woman and women's leadership, it just becomes, you know, this little suffix. There is an assumption that there is a universal idea of leadership and that women's leadership is a subset of that universal idea. And what I would really like for us to challenge is can we put the woman first in leadership, and and recognise that when a woman leads, she can lead very differently than what the world has assumed leadership ought to be. Because there are tropes. I mean, between management schools and management education and political leadership, and the forms of muscular masculine ideas of success that have overcome this world. And I've led it to the place where we find ourselves, you know, falling between cracks and caught in fractures and in, you know, in our own fragmented selves. The idea of who a woman is just get so flattened out. And a woman is not a monolith. I mean, this is not to say that men are monoliths, they're not either. But given the structure of power relations between the genders and in societies across the world, I think it is worth wedging open and really taking apart this idea of what it means to be a woman to find the source of power inside it. And let leadership emerge from that, rather than let women be a subset of this great universal idea of leadership. And with that I wanted to sort of place before you, you know, something that we often do when we talk about, when you say something like, you know, when women are not monolith, you know, a woman, the idea of a woman is not a monolith. What we hear now in popular discourse is the idea of intersectionality, right? That our experience based on our identity, our gender, falls at the intersection of multiple identities, multiple forms of marginalisation, multiple forms of oppression, and I think it's a very valuable framing, a very valuable framing for social justice to help us recognise that at the intersection of multiple forms of marginality and oppression can lie, you know, a varied set of ways in which women can identify themselves. But I would also, you know, urge us to, you know, to flip that around a little bit. Because, you know, do we always have to arrive at our power from powerlessness, from marginalisation and from oppression? Could we arrive at our power, from what we all draw upon, which is what sits inside of us, right? Most of us become leaders not because we draw on from what we find in the world, but what we dig very deep inside ourselves to find, you know. This conversation, to me is an invitation for all of us to think about, you know, what would the reverse of intersectionality look like when we when we think about power? You know, how can we find intersections of power inside ourselves? How is it that when women come together, that coming together and the sisterhood that it generates, across cultures, across identities, beings were mothers, because we menstruate every month, because we are tied to cycles of the moon and the earth and the stars and to nature in ways that you can never reject. How much we're part of nature because we're women. The cartesian mind body fracture is something that there is an embodied rejection when you're a woman of the mind body divided, right? There is, you know, and I think when we give into men, the idea of leadership as being a universal idea as defined by the male, but if we can start with our body, and the truths that our bodies talents, I think there's a different source of power that you begin to generate. You know, it's a black body or brown body. I mean, of course, my experience is a brown woman and experience with my sister as a black woman, we will be different than your experience as a white woman, who we're all connected to our nature of womanliness, womanliness in a way that, you know, we find limited space for that conversation about how can leadership emerge from that, rather than from an idea that leadership is about resting, it's about control, it's about being directive.

Aparna, where does faith play into this?

Faith? Well, you're bringing me to the most difficult if not the most, I think, relevant thing for us to think about in today's world when we live. There is a fear that is generated for those of us who consider ourselves to be liberal minded and progressive and who believe in human rights that favours divisive with leads to fundamentalist thinking is regressive. Because when I think at some level, the idea of the secular has been co opted, in ways that has stripped both individual and collective means for us to access our inner power. And in you know, faith, to me is really the mechanism through which we access our inner power and not just the label that we give, to the religious tradition that one might be born into, or the one might choose to adapt. Because I think to allow the word faith to be co opted by the idea of religion or organised religion has done women a lot of disservice, because, you know, we know how deep forms of patriarchy and misogyny have embedded themselves into and generated a lot of power, through structured forms of religion.

But women all over the world and through time, have been holders of the secrets of faith. They've been hunted down and punished for the power that they've been able to generate. Because of their ability to reach deep down inside, and access their inner resources of power. And that, to me, is faith and by allowing the idea of the religious and the secular to co opt, the power that faith is, faith offers, all of us, men and women. I think we also ended up in in a place where those of us who are parts of, you know, deep movement building within the feminist movement, for example, or other forms of movements, have also lost the connection with so many people for whom faith is their central source of power.

Absolutely.

And to tell someone that your faith, you know, is something that makes you regressive and it shuts you out from the idea of a modern idea of individual individualism and individuality, which is where you must experience power and defining for them where they must experience power, I think has led us to a place where those fractures have now become toe holes for majoritarian populist forms of a toxic and muscular masculinity to grow, which, you know, how do we resist that with faith?

I do identify myself as a progressive, liberal, modern woman. But at the same time, I also want to be able to identify myself as a woman with deep indigenous roots in my culture that I had drawn, not just from my identity, but also as a source of my power. And I recognise that, for example, within the social justice world, where, you know, the human rights framework is such a fundamental tool on which we build our work. You know, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights was drafted when the country that I live in was still a colony, when most of the countries that most of the world was, you know, we're still under imperial power. And the voices from these countries, from these regions, from these cultures did not get to contribute, to frame, to shape, the way in which we think about rights.

There are, as we set off on this expedition, huge hurdles aren't they? There are such huge hurdles. I hope that the fact that all the women on the expedition are from all over the world, and from very different faiths, and backgrounds and beliefs, and traditions and professions means that we've got a chance of climbing over those hurdles. But there are there are plenty in our way. And the danger is that we slide back into thinking of the world as it is rather than as it could be. But the prize of overcoming these hurdles is quite considerable, isn't it Aparna?

I would think so. I would think so. I think sometimes I find myself almost sort of skirting the edge of these hurdles, that I almost feel like we've fenced ourselves in with hurdles. And every once in a while you get to climb that fence and look at what the world might look like.

When we spoke last time you use the expression cradle of power a lot. Why do you use that expression so much?

Well, because, you know, to me, the cradle has been a symbol of you know, the cradle is to be like a womb, that we carry inside ourselves and the cradle of power for me if it doesn't happen, it's not a symbol of motherhood, so much the symbol of my feminine power. And, faith to me is the access to that feminine power, which doesn't have anything to do with the outer world. It has to do with me and what I carry inside of me, just because I exist.

As you say this, you are serenaded by the birds that are around you that I can hear.

Yes, I'm very fortunate to be in this beautiful garden, the Lodi Garden in New Delhi. And we have thousands of trees and hundreds of birds. And to me just you know that cradle is also my place where I reconcile the outer world with my inner power. It's also the space where I prepare myself to, claim my rights as a woman in the public sphere. Which is where power plays out in the world. But I really believe that playing out of that power is something that needs to find ways, mechanism, tactics, structures, resources, forms of resilience, that really recognise that women's power comes from inside of that. And it's the oppression that sits on the outside, that when we push against those structures of power, we're pushing from some deep wellspring of power that sits inside of us. This is not to minimise in any way the horrendous forms of oppression, that history and culture and civilization have imposed on us women. But to think that the tools are also only to be found in the external world, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice.

We in this podcast with the birds in my garden, thousands of miles away from those that Aparna can here in Delhi. They are beautiful sounds. But certainly in my case, the wind is blowing in the background. And it seems fit because as we start this expedition, the world is a pretty frightening place. And I certainly feel the fear.

Thank you for listening to the podcast. Your voice and perspectives are crucial to the success of the expedition and we would love you to become a partner to Women Emerging. You can do this by subscribing to this podcast and joining the Women Emerging group on LinkedIn.