Today on Bad Runners Take:

1. Are 200-mile races becoming a distraction or the main attraction in the ultra running community?
2. How do you feel about profitable races existing on volunteer labor?
3. Josh got into the Paris Marathon. Why is it so hard for trail runners to run on the road for a season?

Josh Rosenthal and Brian Peterson dive into these questions as they explore the growing prominence of these long-distance events.

They discuss the implications for elite athletes like Courtney Dauwalter, who is preparing for Cocodona 250, and how such races might shift focus away from traditional 100-mile competitions.

The conversation also touches on the culture of volunteerism in the sport, particularly in relation to profitable races, and the balance between community support and financial gain.

As the two navigate these topics, they reflect on their own running experiences and the evolving landscape of trail and ultra running.

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Devil's Gulch 100 miler, 50 miler, 13.1 miles. Wenatchee, WA - July 13, 2025

Salt Lake Footshills Trail Races. Salt Lake City, UT - May 31, 2025

VKTRY Insoles - I wear these every run, 20% off.

PATH Projects - My favorite running shorts, Borderlands10 for 10% off.

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• The conversation discusses whether 200-mile races distract from the main attraction of ultra running.
• Courtney's participation in Cocodona illustrates the growing popularity of 200-mile races.
• Volunteers play a crucial role in the success of ultra running events, yet compensation raises questions.
• Josh reflects on the conflict between road marathons and his identity as a trail runner.
• The evolution of running shoes from durability to performance models has shifted expectations.
• There's a debate on whether elite runners should focus solely on traditional 100-milers.

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Are 200s becoming a distraction or is it becoming the main attraction?

So, yeah, I take it as a distraction.

Borderland.

Somehow we're still not learning.

Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

I'm a trail runner most of the time, but I'm.

I'm running on the road right now a lot, getting ready for the Paris Marathon next year.

Today my friend Brian from Wolf Runner Brian Peterson joins me and we work through a few things that we offer our bad takes on.

Maybe bad takes, maybe they're good takes, hopefully just thought provoking about the sport we all love.

We looked at the volunteer culture specifically within javelina from a podcast that Brian heard.

He unpacks that.

And we both offer our takes on volunteerism for profitable races within running.

We talk about Courtney.

Brian asks this really great question.

Are 200 milers becoming a distraction or the main attraction?

As she prepares for Cocodona 250 next year, we weigh in on that and then finally we go into detail.

In my getting accepted into the Paris Marathon and what I hope to do there as a trail runner at heart, am I abandoning my trail running community by running a road marathon?

The conclusion is absolutely not, but it still feels that way.

Also, I am stoked to announce that we released today a video about my time at Devil's Gulch, which is a race by Evergreen Trails up in Wenatchee, Washington.

I had the time of my life going with my buddy Ben to shoot this video to offer my take on what I think of this race.

It's a newer race, year one.

Three out of 20 people finished.

Year two wasn't quite that small of a percentage of finishers compared to starters, but it was still up there.

It is a hard race.

It's a still family feeling race.

Even though Evergreen trails has like 25 races in their whole organization that they put on year round up there.

Uh, it was really cool to just be a part of what felt like very familial.

And I think the driver of that is Porter Bratton, who's one of the owners, and Katie Warren, one of the other owners who executed what I thought was just a really beautiful race.

And that registration is open for them starting today, November 5th.

I know that they're putting together some stuff that's going to be really fun when it comes to that race, but if you want to get in on a hundred miler, that's, that's brutal and super challenging, this one is for you.

They also have a 50 miler and they have a half marathon.

And new this year is that their, their hundred miler is no longer, is no longer two 50 mile loops.

It's actually one 100 mile loop which I think is mission critical and going to make that race even better.

But you will love this community of evergreen trails that puts on this race.

I certainly did and hope that you'll sign up.

I'm going to put the link in my show notes so you can go at least check it out.

Also watch that documentary or the mini, mini documentary, the video that my friend Ben and I put out.

I think it'll give you a good taste of just the beauty and the joy that comes from running Devil's Gulch.

And finally, for those of you who've been following me for any amount of time, know that we're developing an app.

It's called Wilder.

It's for run clubs.

I brought on a world class head of product and head of tech for that.

After the betas went really well.

Got great feedback.

I am beyond stoked about it.

We're past the design stage, we're in the development stage and the real version 1.0 is set to come later this year, early next year.

Just want that to stay on your radar.

I have a link in the show notes for that too.

For more information.

It's called Wilder.

All right, here is my discussion with Brian Wolf Runner Peterson.

And this is our Bad Runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

He's the gift of me of running back.

All right, another episode of Bad Runner's Take with my friend Brian Wolf Runner Peterson.

He's in Arizona, I'm in France.

But that doesn't stop us from thinking about maybe controversial, non controversial things that we like to weigh in on.

We've done it several times now.

No end inside, really enjoying it.

Before we get into today's topics, welcome.

Glad that you're here.

Glad we're doing this together again.

Yeah, man, it's another good one.

I think we got some fun topics to unpack and maybe get a little bit on the spicier side this time with some takes and ruffle up the audience.

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think there's some spice today.

But even before that, I've been impressed with some of these runs that you've been posting.

Oh man.

Saw on Instagram, couple back to back long run days, but that's not crazy.

But the speed at which you're moving is pretty crazy to me.

What, are you training for something?

Yeah, I mean, just had a good 12 weeks where, you know, the schedule with the family has aligned and just gotten a good groove with running more regularly.

So yeah, those are kind of the good like zone three runs or, you know, mixing a little bit of a 5k tempo in the middle of a 10 mile or just to keep it engaged and entertaining.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I mean, that's all good.

I mean, I saw some six minute miles in there.

You know, something with that started with a six.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll see.

There's a Air Viper race here in November past Mountain 50, so yeah, I haven't signed up yet.

So letting the body kind of decide if I want to go sub ultra and let it rip from both ends of the candle or, you know, drag it out to a 50k or 50 mile effort.

So we'll see.

I mean, that sounds fun.

And I guess speaking of rvipa, let's just go, let's go for it.

I mean, if you want the results in our, in our pre discussion, Brian and I were talking.

If you want the results, there's some fantastic podcasts going through the results, fantastic content in our vibe, but we're not here to necessarily talk about the results.

But I think we've got some more to say about the race in general because it did capture everyone's attention and imagination as well it should.

It's interesting race, it's a good race.

But you heard, you heard a podcast, something about that, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So I mean, just to touch on javelina at the high level, it was a hot year.

You know, it was very much, you know, 95 to 100 degrees out here.

And we talked about how the heat was going to be a factor, but didn't have any really impact on, you know, the top times on the podium side for men and women.

Both men and women's winners were second fastest times out there.

That's crazy.

Yeah, crazy, right?

So I think David Roach was just a couple minutes off of actual John Ray's course record.

And yeah, I mean the, the talent out there on that course is incredible.

Yeah.

But yeah, AJW came out with a podcast.

So he had Jerry, the founder of Javelin100, who went on his podcast for about 45 minutes to an hour and kind of talked about her experience.

It's a great listen.

I would recommend anybody to listen to it.

It was.

I learned a lot and was pretty cool to learn about the scene out here in Arizona.

So they touched on javelina because she's the founder and.

And.

Yeah, so basically that the point or the thread that I wanted to pull on was that she made this comment about how, you know, she went to the.

The park system there because it's a closed park, so she had to go get permits.

Pitched the idea.

They were a little lukewarm on it.

And following year or later in that year, a new director was in the role, and he said, hey, know, go for it.

Why not?

Let's see what happens.

So javelin almost didn't even get off of the Runway there.

We might not even have had it if it wasn't for that change in people at that position.

So she gets the green light.

She advertises it with, like, I think, three or four months notice and, you know, gets almost about 100 people out there on the first year.

Yeah.

Surprising.

And, yeah, once she, you know, once she basically, know, paid herself back for all the cost to run the event, she fully donated all proceeds back to the park.

So I think she ended up saying it was close to about a $10,000 check that she laid on the parks and recs test and said, hey, thanks, you know, we had a great year.

And the justification for that was that she just didn't feel right profiting off the volunteers who run the race.

And that's a scab that I've been scratching at for a long time, and the.

The wound has not healed.

And when I heard that, oh, boy, I was like, I gotta run to Josh.

Because this is a good topic to kind of tease a little bit.

Yeah.

When I was early concepting bad runners take this idea where we weigh in on current events and issues, whatever, within running, this was one of my first things I threw out there is, you know, volunteer.

How do we.

How do we think about volunteer?

Because it's.

People want to volunteer.

I mean, people who.

Who make money, who have good day jobs, love the community, and they just want to Volunteer and, but that's interesting to me.

And then there's also people who do it and they're not high net worth individuals but, and, and they still love the community and they just want to do it.

I don't under, I don't entirely understand volunteer culture, to be honest with you.

I mean I'm as someone who's started several businesses, you know, volunteers are not dependable.

They have varying interests.

None of those interests are money.

When you have a organization, at the very least you know that you're aligned on your employees.

Whether it's their most value, highest value, or second or third or fourth.

You know that paycheck is important and it's motivating.

You don't leverage it against them to say, you know, to get something out of them that you don't, that isn't good.

But at the same time there's at least some aligned interest on, you know, my organization will pay you and in return you're going to offer the service.

So volunteer.

Living on volunteers is very difficult.

But when you've got the money to pay volunteers and you don't pay volunteers, that is another thing that I don't understand.

And then volunteers mostly will still happily do it.

Arvipa does really well.

What she's saying at that year that, you know, she sounds like a big hearted person and maybe someone who loves public lands and understands all that.

So she wanted to donate.

Good for her.

I support that.

That was her money to do that with.

She's welcome to do that.

And it didn't sit right with her because volunteers helped, help put all that money in her bank account.

And so she thought, you know what, this is too complex.

I'm putting words in her mouth, but this is what I would say.

You know what?

This, this is too muddy.

I'm going to be above board and just say, hey, I didn't make money off of this.

Thank you for all your help.

Fast forward, what is it, 20 years, 21 years?

There's probably still a lot of volunteers involved and maybe there's some donation going, but it's a for profit entity and they keep the money.

So keep.

So here.

This is me walking down that path and saying arvipa makes a ton of money, lots of volunteers involved.

This is every race in the country.

By the way, I'm not singling Arvipa out, it's just that she's the one who said it.

So after all that, I'm going to reflect back to you as someone who doesn't have their own race yet when you run a race, does this even cross your mind who's getting paid and how they're getting paid?

And if.

Yeah, yeah, answer that part first.

I got some follow up.

It has, yeah.

Again, because I'm, I'm in air viper country.

So, you know, when I go to, whether it's javelina, which is going to have, you know, over a thousand participants, paying participants, or I go to Sinister Night run as an April summer night race, that's, you know, much smaller.

It's not going to pull, you know, from across the country.

It's going to be more local Arizona based runners.

But we're still, we're still showing about, you know, 300 to 450 runners across the distances on these very small local races, which, that's a big event still in participation.

And when you're having, you know, one or two of those races every month, and then Black Canyon and Cocodona and javelina, that's a big operation that's running purely on the backs of volunteers.

And so for me, it's kind of like a scaling issue.

Like you said in the early days, as you're building up a bed.

Yeah.

You are solely dependent on volunteers.

And then at some, at a certain point, I think the revenue switches over and you no longer necessarily are financially dependent on volunteers.

But it's still profitable and a wise business decision to keep the model going if it's not broken, even as you scale up.

Yeah, I mean, I think the profit motive is critical and even to look on it without judgment.

Does this person want profit?

Do they not want profit?

Like it's important for the economy to go forward if we want trail running to grow.

Someone with a profit motive coming in and building something where they could potentially make profit, like a Candice Burt, who's done really well, obviously Jamil Curry, who's done really well, we want that.

Like that's a good thing.

So if I, part of me thinks, okay, as a runner before I had ever owned anything in trail running, I would, I would think, oh, I want this person at the top.

Man or woman, I want them to be really wealthy because of this race.

So I don't mind, you know, I have, I have a ceiling.

I'm not going to pay anything, but I don't mind paying because.

And if they take home a lot of money, I've had a great race experience, they take home a lot of money.

That profit motive, combined with loving the sport, whatever is going to make them want to do it next year.

And if their ambition wants them to make it bigger and better.

That next year I also celebrate that it all, it all collapses at some point, you know, the need to grow year over year.

So as a runner at the time, I would think, okay, yeah, I don't mind that this person makes a lot of money.

Now that I've been on the side where I run an event and think, okay, I really want to be.

This feels different now because I'm got money coming in the door.

I don't have an excess, but I've got money coming in the door.

And I'm got this profit motive as well.

I want to build a race that also allows me to take home some money.

And I've got these people who, because the culture is to volunteer.

It's just like, oh, yeah, great, I'm going to get some volunteers and people want to volunteer.

And so now we're, you know, this is almost circular, but it feels different when you're the one writing the checks and seeing the money coming in and thinking, okay, I've built.

This is perfect.

People are willing to pay 150 bucks for this race.

I just can't pay these 55 people that it takes to put on my 50k.

If I had to, I'd have to raise the prices.

So as a runner, I didn't mind it.

As someone who puts on a race, part of me doesn't want to have this discussion because once I do make a lot of money, I don't want them to have to.

Have to come around and talk about it, to be honest.

Right.

Well, I think it's.

I don't know.

I'm think I'm thinking about out loud.

So, yeah, you, you, you take a stab.

So I think it's just a matter of scaling the investments you're making outside of the race as well, simultaneously as building up the race, keeping that founder spirit as part of the race's identity as well.

Because I, yeah, I mean, maybe there is somewhere some publication or, you know, public communication on what, you know, Aravaipa or Javelina specifically does to give back and the amount that it donates.

But again, the fact that we're maybe asking that question and we don't know it as quickly off the top of our head as what, you know, what time the race the runners have ran recently, you know, we know the race results right off the top of our head and can locate them, but just keep scaling equally with what you're doing outside of the race, you know, or keeps giving back to the volunteers in a greater.

In a Greater way.

Right.

It's race credits that you're getting, so you don't get a free entry as you volunteer, which would be, you know, a 400 to $500 value.

At the 100 mile race, you get maybe $100 race credit.

So something has to scale equally with what you're doing to give back to the community.

And embracing that founder spirit and just the overall trail community that wants to embrace volunteers.

Because I've heard, you know, a lot of people in the community say they don't want paid staff, like at Ironman events, because it doesn't feel as grassroots or if you're being paid to show up there, it's more.

It's more mechanical, like a pit stop, you know, it's not as, you know, embracing people with hugs and cowbells.

So, you know, people don't want paid volunteers.

They want people to want to be there.

And I can understand that.

But somewhere these two things just keep clashing in my mind where I can't.

I can't square the round peg yet.

Yeah, that's.

That's a good perspective.

You know, what do they.

What do the runners want or what?

You know, how do.

How do you maintain that homegrown feel?

I'll tell you this.

Vacation races, my favorite.

I didn't even notice this.

I never really thought about this until you did the episode where you interviewed me.

I've only raced, and I'll put quotes around race.

I've only raced in Utah, and 80% of the races I've done have been vacation races.

And they.

They sold.

They sold in like the last two weeks.

And I'm a little bit pissed because I.

I love those races.

And they, they sold to a company.

I mean, it.

I've.

I've got some off the record intel on it, but the best way to think about it is like some.

Some private equity group in Southeast Asia, I think was the capital behind it.

Because I was just going to talk about the Wonder Project and Salem Stanley, who started it.

No judgment on him, especially if he got paid.

Again, that profit motive.

He built awesome races, and I love those races.

But he started something called the Wonder Project, which was their nonprofit.

And they were very vocal about that for all of their problems, and they have many.

One they did really well was they put their nonprofit partner.

They created their nonprofit and put it very much in the forefront.

And it held up the scrutiny really well.

And I had seen.

I always thought it was interesting because occasionally I would see Aravaipa partner with the Wonder Project and they had something to do with national parks and distributing capital to National Park Foundation.

I'm going to be off on it.

But what's funny is that from a consumer perspective, I just thought, oh, it's nice to see they're doing something like you're saying, because vacation races, if I just look at it and try and think in their full scope, are they a $10 million company and they have their own nonprofit and they're putting their money where their mouth is.

That's.

That's what money where their mouth is.

They're putting forward.

We don't know that where their heart is.

They're putting forward the right visual.

And Aravaipa, who's probably, in my estimation, and this is purely back of the envelope, guess they're probably two and a half times larger than that.

I'm just going to guess they're $25 million enterprise.

Someone could be laughing.

Jamil could hear this.

Someone could send us to him and he could be rolling on the ground laughing.

But if so, it's because there may be.

There are 15 million.

Maybe I'm off by 10 million.

Point being is that he outsourced his 501c3 participation to vacation races in those scenarios.

Also hope that I'm wrong, that there's something else going on there.

And the unfortunate reality is that sometimes this is also all just greenwashing anyway.

This is all just virtue washing in order for people to be a little bit happier.

So to come back to the volunteer thing.

So long as the volunteers know, I think so long as they know that this is a for profit company, they're making money, you volunteer, you need some race credits.

There's value to that.

But just so long as, you know, like.

And then let, let them.

Let everybody make their own decision.

I think that's perfectly fine too.

Yeah.

And I mean, at the end of it, just to put a bow on it, javelina, this was the first year in the 20 plus years they ran it where they were not able to clear the wait list.

And that tells you clearly there's a product with a high demand and they can't even, you know, fulfill all the order requests that they're receiving.

So if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You know, we're.

We're clearly not saying there's anything fundamentally wrong with how the races ran and the experience that you get.

I will still participate fully in narrow viper races.

You know, yeah, much.

Because there's not much competition out here.

It's my only option.

But they do they do put on a great event and these are just fun topics to rift through and kind of.

Yeah.

Voice out loud.

And, and when you're on the top, like ARVIPA is on the top.

The, the seminal organization in the country.

This level of observation is important because everyone in the country would follow any change that they make.

Like the doping thing and all that screening and you know, wada, the testing of like, they're, they're trendsetters.

And so a close eye on the biggest in our sport is good for the whole sport.

And so the key takeaway here could be like, yeah, all.

Every volunteer's like, yeah, we knew this.

We're fine.

We just love the sport.

We don't care.

We want them to make money.

That's fine.

Just.

It's interesting.

It's good to know.

It's.

I think it's just really good to know.

So as you make your decision as a volunteer that you go into it aware.

All right, you put this on my radar.

Courtney is running Cocodona and I love how you worded this to me in the text.

Are two hundreds becoming a distraction for our great runners or are they the main attraction?

Well, well worded because Leah Yangling, a favorite of mine out of Salt Lake City, she chose Cocodona next year too.

So answer, I want you to answer the question and you asked me, is it a distraction or is it becoming the main attraction?

So, yeah, I take, I take it as a distraction.

Yep.

Why?

I think because it's, it's, it's.

We're barely getting the hundred mile distance into a consistent depth of competition on both men and women's side.

And it's still a struggle to have, you know, who are identified as the top five, you know, from each men and women's field at the same start line on the same year.

So we haven't perfected that piece of the pie yet and we're now distracted with this, you know, this little shiny object over here that is getting equal attention from the media.

Cocodona week is probably, you know, bigger than, you know, javelina for sure.

It's bigger than Black Canyon for sure.

So we're talking golden ticket races, you know, that are within the series for western states.

And Cocodona probably exceeds the just spectator and hype fanfare of those races.

So athletes are getting positive, you know, feedbacks.

Brands and sponsors are getting good eyes.

So it's kind of a justification for more to go into that, that event.

Okay, here's an interesting follow up.

If it's A distraction.

And I'll give my answer later.

So I'm not agreeing or disagreeing.

I'm saying for you, if it's a distraction, what is?

As a fan of the sport, knowing that when Courtney competes in a.

In an event that it's.

You want to watch it, you at least want to pay attention to the results.

Something similar to, you know, when she triple crowned it, minus one.

You know, I would throw hard rock out and just, you know, Western states, utmb, something else internationally that, you know, shows big depths of field.

Follow, you know, again, follow where the best are lining up at.

Much like the Golden Trail Series, you know, like you.

You know, you're going to have, you know, a lot of the same group, you know, within that series because they've got to get their best four results.

So it creates.

It creates a forced, you know, depth of competition where you get the same names racing against each other.

So that's what I want to see.

Yeah, that's cool.

I like that too.

For me, it's just so hard for me to put it into either one.

I think, okay.

From a fan's perspective, just because of the coverage, it gives more, you know, I get to watch her do her thing over the course of three days with coverage that's getting better and better every year.

And so as a fan, that's fun.

I get to see her, you know, in the throes of it for.

I don't know what she'll do it in.

It's 60.

I don't even know what to guess, but 60 hours.

But I.

So as a fan think, oh, that's cool.

I get to see her more.

But when I think about, like, the bigger picture of the.

Of the sport and the whole year and I first am curious what the trade off is like, what is she not gonna do now because she's doing cocodone Western states.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I'm not gonna put anything past Courtney.

Sure.

It doesn't look like, you know, yeah, she's, you know, registered for it.

So I don't think she's got a qualifier.

So she would have had to have ran something to.

To get entry into it.

Yeah.

And here's what I think.

I know what people are thinking is like, hey, Courtney can.

Why can't she just do whatever she wants?

Let her have fun.

Stop it.

Stop doing this.

And I.

On that level, I just don't think that.

I just don't see the world that way, I don't think for her it's as simple as let her just do what she wants because I don't think that she really legitimately just gets to do what she wants.

And I think maybe the Venn diagram over what she is contractually bound to do from her sponsors compared to what she wants.

I bet there is a lot of overlap.

She seems like a authentically happy person.

So the good news is that the circle of what she's contractually bound to do and what she wants to do, it almost maybe just looks like one circle, maybe just a little bit off.

But I do think that she is bound to do things that put her brand, Solomon, all of her brands, Kodiak, go through the list.

They've got to be on display.

And Cocodona is a really good place to put all of her brands on display.

So maybe, I'm sure she meets with the team of Spot with her marquee sponsor, her title sponsor and they plan, I would guess that they plan out their year together and she says, hey, I want to do a 200 this next year.

And they say, well, hey, Cocodona is where that's going to be.

This is all speculation, but I think that to me she's, there's an element where she's, maybe she just wants to run a 200 again and 200 plus and then, but there's also pressure from sponsors and so on that level is coca.

Then the question becomes for her, is Coco Dona a sponsor driven thing or is it a Courtney driven thing?

And maybe it's a little bit of both.

Leah.

It also has a full time job.

I don't even know how to explain what it is.

She had told me once and it was so far over my head that I don't understand it.

But she's not full time, so that's different.

She probably is more flexible to do just whatever she wants.

Is it a distraction?

So I'm, I think I'm going to come in and say, yes, it's a distraction.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think, you know, again, these are conversations that are just fun to have in the sport.

And you know, if Courtney wasn't signed up for Cocodona, we wouldn't be here.

What would be talking exactly?

I mean, Jamil keeps benefiting from all of our discussions because our viper is the trendsetter.

That's why he needs scrutiny to that point as well.

Let me get some of the dole then.

I need to get some, I need to get some sponsorship money for all these ad placements.

We're dropping.

So get me on the dole.

That's what I'm saying now.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, Courtney's fascinating because what I started thinking about is these two hundreds, like outside of the trail running world.

So think mainstream, like, you know, Joe Rogan or, you know, the guy at the office.

Right.

Like, that's what got her kind of the, you know, the orbit.

It took her name into an orbit that she transcended the sport.

When she did the Moab event, people were fascinated with the distance.

They were fascinated by the time in which she beat the nearest competitor.

They were just fascinated with the audacity of everything as a newspaper headline.

Right.

But like within the sport, we know, like back then, like, what was that?

I mean, the competitive nature of 200 was nothing of what it is today.

I don't think so.

I think it was just the timing of it and the fact that she got picked up on Hogan's podcast that really built her, her name.

And now she's benefiting from it to where it doesn't matter what she does, she'll always ride that.

So, you know, again, the buckets aren't totally filled where I think she's done writing her legacy.

And I'm.

My, my, my, my thirst for more Courtney is quenched at these big races.

Like, I want more.

Like those, those aren't Scott Jerich numbers.

Those aren't, you know, and tracing numbers, you know, and.

Yeah.

And I, I'll throw this at you now.

If Jim Walmsley signed up for Cocodona next year, how much more radical of a response or pushback do you think people would be having to Jim, if Jim decided he's running Cocodona?

Wouldn't.

Would they?

I feel like they'd be a little bit more annoyed than Courtney.

Courtney gets a pass.

I mean, I had a.

I, when you asked that, I had a somewhat of a visceral response to that.

My initial thing was absolute disappointment.

Right.

Like, why, why would he be doing that?

He doesn't you know, he doesn't need to do that.

There's so much more left for him to do.

He's better.

I want to, I want to still see him at West.

Yes.

I want to see him at Western States again.

I want to see him at UTMB again.

I just want to see him do those over and over.

Yeah.

Like, I feel like he's better than the Cocodona 250.

Yeah.

And I feel like.

Yes.

Yeah, I'm, I, you know, I'm with you on that.

And that's where I go back to the Venn diagram thing was like, okay, is it just what she wanted?

Well, fortunately there's eyes and ears to this other point though, is that when a brand, let's just say it's Solomon, chooses to pay her just because I don't know the numbers, I'm just going to use the number 100.

They're going to pay her $100 all year.

She's sponsored.

Well, when that rises up to the decision makers of whether or not they're going to allocate that money to her, it arrives on their desk as a number with a plan attached to that number.

This hundred dollars is going to get the company and it's going to be a couple of different things, but maybe this hundred dollars is going to get the company $1,000 in sales.

All the people who are making decisions about these sponsored athletes and people often act like sponsored athletes are like that.

They're entitled to these contracts when these contracts are only worth anything because that's the tactic that that company thinks will work for them.

So Courtney, she, the part of the reason that she can't just go do whatever she wants is because there's this very real thing with her contractor when she's up for renewal.

It's like, well, hey, you only did the Salt Lake foothills 50K, you know, no visibility on that thing.

So she's got to be doing these things because when it goes up to the so on the financial reporting, it goes and says, hey, you spent this much on marketing on your athletes and this is our revenue.

Like this isn't quite working.

That percentage is off.

And then second to that, there's like the managerial reports that said when we invested in athletes, we think athletes are directly responsible for X of the revenue.

If those numbers are out of, out of whack, I mean, there are no sponsored athletes.

So it's a distraction for me as a fan.

I want to see Courtney like his and Jim.

I want to see them at the big, the big Marquee one hundreds right now.

But the two, I think this, I think ultimately, and here's my conclusion on this, is that this speaks to Cocodona's numbers.

They're the eyes that they've got.

I think this speaks to that.

Yeah, I think so.

And again, I think, I think there's different types of athlete profiles in the sport, which is, you know, fascinating and fun where there's, you know, there's people who have natural speed.

Like Courtney is fast, you know, like she's ran fast, a hundred ks fast 50 ks.

Like we.

She has speed, you know, that is real.

But she feels at home in the mountains.

Like she, you know, clearly wants to go train and prepare and enjoy long days in the mountains.

And that's what this event calls for when you prepare for it.

So, yeah, no knock on her doing the thing that she loves the most.

I just think again, because the sport is providing this distraction, then it allows her to justify doing what she wants to do and enjoys the most.

If it wasn't there, she would have to kind of sacrifice some of her joy to go play in the mountains and prepare for 100 milers.

But the sport's giving her this and all good for her to take it.

Okay, so here's what I'm going to tell people is that Wolf Runner said it is a distraction, but it's Jameel Curry's fault.

I'm really stoked.

I mean.

Okay, then just put this on.

I'm, I'm always.

I like Cocodona week and I like watching it.

So regardless, that's going to be a good week.

Yeah, totally.

I mean, the fascinating thing is that Dan Green, who just came in third place at Javelina and ran a sub 13 hour Javelina is in the field at Cocodona.

I mean, it's just radical that you've got, you know, just such a spread in talent.

Yeah, that fine.

Yeah.

Again.

But I think he's a mountain guy who loves mountain training and, you know, coming off the javelina and not getting the golden ticket, maybe he's just, you know, ready to hit the reset button with a nice 250 miler in the.

Arizona man for, for Dan.

And I know he runs for Roman Run Company.

They've sponsored a few things.

He does.

Yeah, he, he.

That's got to hurt to get that time and not lead to a golden ticket.

Yeah, that's just where the sports at now.

It's, you know.

Yeah, it's crazy, especially at these races that are fast like that and don't Present, you know, technical challenges other than maybe the weather and fueling strategy.

But yeah, I mean they're going out there and ripping sub, sub 7 minute miles for the first 23 mile loop and dealing with the 90 degree heat in the middle of the day and still just dropping these sub 13 hour.

So on a mild temperature day at javelina, I mean eventually you might start seeing this drop down into the low twelves.

It doesn't even make sense, doesn't even register.

So what do you got going on?

Because of my talking about my training.

A little bit early at the start of the podcast, you were telling me you might be signed up for something as well.

Yeah, you know, it's.

So this is where it's funny because I think about what you just said and then I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm signed up for the Paris marathon.

I had got, I, I signed up a little while ago and I got in, I thought I got in.

And then I was talking with Joe Corcion, he's like, I, he said, I think 800,000 people try and sign up for that thing.

There's no way that you're in.

I'm like, I think I'm in, I don't know.

And I couldn't find the email and this is typical me.

So I was like, I don't know, I think I'm in.

And I got an email yesterday that said, congratulations, you are definitely one of the ones who are in.

And get ready, it's April, whatever.

And my takeaway is like, okay, can I get sub 4 hours?

And compared to what we're talking about with javelina, but you know, I'm going to put some number on it because in ultras I never run for speed and that's part of the fun.

Like it's, it's because we've learned my intensity surrounding business and sort of my idealism as a father and husband and family man.

Like for me, mountain, ultra trail and desert Ultra trail is a moment where I can just turn everything off and just be very, very present.

And so time hasn't mattered.

Now I'm going to run the Paris marathon and I'm, I feel, it feels very bizarre to me to be thinking, okay, I'm thinking time again.

I'm thinking all this sort of stuff.

It's like, it feels like I'm clocking in for work all of a sudden to do it and I'm a little overwhelmed because I'm so out of shape right now.

But on the, on the other hand, I looked at the course and it's, it's a, I mean, if you like Paris even a little bit, it's just a unbelievable course.

So I don't know.

Do you have road marathon experience?

No.

No.

Because yeah, I mean I, I went straight from like running in high school and you know that regimented all about seconds and splits and, and such.

And so when I went back into running I was like, man, like it doesn't sound fun to chase splits and 5k and half in marathon time.

So I just got straight into the trails where like you said, you, yeah, you get away from it a little bit.

But like, I don't think, I don't think you should ever totally lose track of fitness and.

Yeah.

And form and doing the things that make you a faster, more efficient runner.

And so I think you'll benefit tremendously from this block and hopefully you'll, you'll learn something and you'll, you'll use it going forward.

I think that's the biggest mistake.

You know, some of the people who get into ultra running for the, the soul of it and just turning things off and running, that's one of the ones that they make is because you still have to be aware and do the things as a runner, you know, that builds the right fitness and economy to be successful at 100 mile distance.

So yeah, I was always surprised as I was building borderlands and just getting to know more and more trail runners that way.

To me I just thought, you know, if you're a trail runner and the way that we describe it and you, I think you've described it better.

This mindset of a, of a trail runner and how we think.

I was surprised at how many people were.

While they were like, we are, we were this trail running group and doing stuff together as trail runners went off and ran.

We're running road marathons also.

Like they're there, there's.

There's a constituency of people who will never run on the road and will talk shit about the road.

And then there's this other group that is all in with the community because they have the, they have the mind of a trail runner, even though they'll still go out and have a blast on the road.

And that, that's.

I'm trying to summon that energy where it's like, I'm not gonna, I can't abandon my trail runners.

And to me that feels like the same thing as like if I'm a punk rocker, but I have to wear a suit and tie to work.

Like I'm still, I'M not, I'm not abandoning that part of who I am.

But maybe my question to you is this because I think you've articulated better.

I don't have to be, I mean, a trail runner.

I can still be a trail runner while I'm running the Paris Marathon.

What do you think of that statement?

Absolutely.

100.

Yeah, yeah.

No matter where.

What does it mean to be a trail runner if not 100?

Running on the trails?

Because I'm not running on the trails.

But what, so what, how, what does it mean to be a trail runner?

I think like you said, it's kind of that not embracing typical running stereotypes.

You know, it's that, is that excitement and you know, desire to want to wander, you know, a little bit, you know, to hear the sounds of the trail crunching.

Right.

Like to long for that type of experience.

Like, it's just, it's a guttural thing.

Like you're not going to feel necessarily in your environment, you know, in a 50,000 participant road marathon.

Right.

But you, but you are still going to be surrounded by people who love running.

And I think you're going to be surprised, surprised with how much you're going to connect with the experience.

You're not going to feel like a fish out of water because yeah, you're, you're a trail runner, but you're a runner first.

Yeah.

It's not the other way around.

Like it would be like if you were in a, you know, some sort of like seminar with musicians and.

Yeah.

Just because you're talking to somebody who doesn't play music the same genre you do, you're still gonna feel like they're in my community more so than anybody else when it comes to music and talking about things.

Like you're gonna, you guys are probably gonna be inspired by similar things, but you're just gonna express that inspiration in a different, you know, basically, or a different lyric.

Same thing with the running marathon.

They're runners just like you.

They just express their.

Yeah, they're running in the pursuit of a road marathon.

Yeah, that's really good that, that analogy.

I lived it recently within music.

There's.

There's a guy here that I met from Israel and he's a professional, like really interesting, like free form jazz saxophone player.

And you know, I could never comp that on a guitar.

I could never play along with that on a guitar.

But there was still a shared like language around music that you can keep going up higher until eventually it's like, okay, maybe the only thing we have in Common is that these are these, this is music.

Then our specialties go way off.

And so, yeah, to your point, I mean marathon's not that far away from what I love.

But you know, I've just always just loved the 100 miler.

And so some, maybe on some levels my, I'm a fierce monogamist.

That's how I talk about my fandom of Texas Tech football.

Like, I just can't.

Even though I paid tuition at the University of Utah, my loyalty was to Texas Tech football.

So with this it feels like, you know, it feels like I'm being disloyal to the.

It's, you know, so done.

But you're right.

Like you're still surrounded by.

We still got that running thing in common regardless of how we express it.

I think that's interesting and philosophical.

Yeah.

And I mean and you've got tattoos, you've got a beard you're probably going to wear, you know, path projects or some other, you know, trail running brand.

So you're going to look like I'm gonna still be.

Yeah.

Make sure they still know.

Exactly.

They're gonna know.

But definitely.

Yeah, yeah.

Surrender to the process.

You know, you've got to go into a road marathon training differently than going into a hundred miler.

Like that's what I was listening to David Roach about or people talking about him is like the way he approaches these things is all about specificity, you know, like he won't, you know, if he's got a treadmill workout because he needs to hit certain paces and the weather outside sucks.

He' getting on the treadmill and he's hitting the paces.

That the body needs adaptation.

He's not, he's going to sacrifice fun and pleasure for fitness and the science of what he's trying to build his body to do.

Whereas there's other in the trail running sport who they don't want to make that sacrifice.

You know, they'll go out and do, you know, a six hour day in the mountains which is still building fitness, but it may not have been building the specificity that they needed at that top end.

Right.

So there's that balance and trail in road marathon.

There's, there's like zero balance.

You've got to just commit to the training plan, the process, show up on race day and let it rip.

Yeah.

And I was inspired by the conversation I had with Jacob Pusey.

I've mentioned it a lot and I've started to find it.

But he just talks about.

Because he's got experience in both trail and ultra.

Ultra trail, sub.

Ultra trail marathons.

And just talking about finding that there's just a.

There's a unique rhythm that's only available to road runners that we don't have on trail trail.

We have a unique rhythm that's only available to trail, not available to road, but this redundant.

One foot in front of the other, absent minded running.

I don't know how else to think about.

That's what I'm celebrating with it is that I can get into the rhythm on the road.

The terrain is the same.

I can really like uh.

It feels almost like a meditation opportunity.

Like I can really just settle in, feel my body, find this spot and then just where the ultra trail person in me comes out, I can just do the work.

And that to me does sound like fun.

Oh, it's.

Yeah, I love it.

I mean I long for that trail that I can still run with my mind shut off because you know, I.

Yeah, like, like my.

Yeah.

I don't really run a lot of trails I'm not familiar with because it's so annoying to have to like be glancing at my phone or my watch or trying to remember where the turn is.

Like I love a route that I have memorized and I love a route that has that ability to just like turn the mind off and still just run, you know, on autopilot.

I hate over technical trails where I've just got to have my head just like hunched down and every step is a intentional step and you've got to react to a rolled ankle and off camber land.

Like that's, that's.

I don't like that.

So I am still very much that road runner that likes that metronome pace where you just lock in and go and then, you know, I've got to adapt to being more open to power hiking and technical trails.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Only reason I like the.

In the middle of the race, like having to find every flag is because it forces you to walk with an excuse.

If you run too fast where you run too fast in those sections, you just, you could get lost so easy.

So you like have to get to one flag, stop, wait till you see the next flag and then go.

Road running.

There's no excuse.

I mean it's just like if, if you've got it, unless you just have to stop, there's no excuse to stop.

Yep.

So what's your plan?

Are you going to get a coach, you think for this build up or.

I, I have been kicking that around.

Um.

Cause I do feel like I'm in the place where I can do marathon training, not in the place where I can do ultra.

I want to do ultra road eventually.

So yeah, I'm, I'm contemplating that because if I am going to set a goal time, I do need help to get the goal time.

Finishing feels like no problem.

I could, you know, walk the thing and you know, get it done in six hours.

But yeah, probably going to get a coach.

I'm going to probably tap, believe in the run.

Just help me find the right gear.

Oh, you got to get a super.

Because if it's up to me, yeah, if it's up to me, I would just choose the best looking shoe.

But I need to find a shoe that actually, you know, works with who I am and how I run.

On that point the other day I went to the Adidas store and I held their.

It doesn't even feel real.

They have like a super, super light shoe where the upper is like translucent.

You can see through it.

It's so light.

It's lighter than my iPhone.

Wow.

It's unbelievable.

But yeah, and it's so when they talk about those being like a single use or a hundred mile use if it felt so fragile.

But yeah, I want to, I want to shop around and find the right shoes for it all.

That kind of sounds like fun.

I've never, I've never, I've never been in that space.

So it's crazy how the.

Not to get too off track here, but it's crazy how the road running shoe has come 360 to the initial.

Like waffle iron Nike that Bowerman made for Prefontaine.

Like he would, he would.

The first Nikes, they, they would disintegrate after like you know, one mile on the track.

And now they're like, hey, that's actually a good business model.

Let's go back to that.

Let's make a $500 shoe that they can run one marathon in.

And then they're basically, you know, they're trophies.

Good point.

You just put them on the wall with the time and the date and that's exactly right.

That's what they are.

They hang with the.

Because you can't ever wear them again.

That is, that's a great observation that we, we've regressed.

I wonder if it is.

That's a business model or if that's like as engineers, can't you make it last longer?

I don't know.

I'm not an engineer.

I don't know how hard that is.

But couldn't you make it last?

5 times longer.

Same weight.

Sure.

I mean, there's somewhere there's a French engineer with his accent, like, oh, we cannot make it more.

You know, the performance of it would be sacrificed if it lasts one mile longer than 26.2.

You know, like.

Yes.

A purist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I do.

So the gear stuff is fun.

Like, you know, I've been doing those episodes with Believe in the Run, and I've never been a big gear guy.

Like, I.

Even to this day.

And, you know, I've owned dozens of guitars.

I could never tell you the model number of any single one of them.

I could tell you the main brand, but I've just never drilled down.

Always not guitars, but shoes.

Always shows how they look.

So I'm excited to do this.

It gives me.

Gives me some purpose in my running right now.

I haven't had purpose in my running in a while, so I haven't been running as much.

So, you know, I'm what, seven months out at this point?

Six months out.

Is that true?

Yep.

So it's something to do.

Yeah.

And I need that and fueling, too.

You know, you're going to have a whole different fueling strategy.

You're going to have to learn, you know, how to be fueling at a faster pace than you're probably ever used to, which takes, you know, takes practice, both the gut and just the mechanics of it.

Like, it's pretty tough.

You know, you're running at your, you know, you're going to go probably like, what, 8, 8:30 pace?

If you're trying to go around four.

Hours, that'd be a dream.

Yeah.

So if you're going.

If you're running an 8:30 pace, like it's.

It's a little bit harder with one hand to rip that gel out and eat it than walking or.

Yeah, good point.

That's interesting.

And breathing, I feel like breathing while trying to eat, while trying to run, breathing while eating and running quickly.

That causes some major problems for me currently.

Yeah, I'm excited for you.

Yeah.

I mean, I.

Yeah, we'll see.

Yeah.

Yeah, we'll talk about it as it develops, too.

It'll be fun to talk about what shoes end up going with and, you know, just the whole story.

So I think we came full circle.

We talked a little bit about how Cocodona, you know, distraction or the main attraction, and, you know, I mean, road marathons and things like that could also be in that same bucket.

Yeah, there's a lot of ways to get out there and go run, so whatever way you choose.

Just make sure you keep tuning into.

Yeah, keep.

Keep listening to our two whack job takes.

All right, man, let's do this again.

All right, buddy.

See you.

It's too real cold, too.

Oh, hey, don't forget, episode 100 is coming up next week, and it's going to be super special.

I've been working on it for about two and a half months.

Stay tuned.