Season #24 Episode#:85

Shaun and Bobby talk to Darren Potkey. Darren is the Executive Director of USTA Georgia as well as the Georgia Tennis Foundation.

YouTube Full Video: https://youtu.be/Jz6vSODik_Q

YouTube King of Tennis: https://youtu.be/eJ1jm0wiGH4

More about Darren: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darren-potkey-7320411a7

Shaun Boyce USPTA: shaun@tennisforchildren.com

https://tennisforchildren.com/

Bobby Schindler USPTA: schindlerb@comcast.net

https://windermerecommunity.net/

Geovanna Boyce: geovy@regeovinate.com

https://regeovinate.com/

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Hey, hey, this is Shaun with the Atlanta Tennis Podcast, powered by GoTennis.

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and be sure to register for the GoTennis Fall Festival coming up on November 9th at James Creek

Tennis Center. It's going to be awesome. And now let's get into our recent conversation with Darren

Potkey. Darren is the executive director of USDA Georgia at the state level as well as executive

director of the Georgia Tennis Foundation. Have a listen and let us know what you think.

Who are you and why do we care? Yeah, good question. I asked me the same thing.

Got the time, but no, I'm Darren Potkey. I'm currently the executive director of USTA Georgia or

the Georgia Tennis Association where our legal name is. We're the national, we're the governing

body of the sport in the USTA for the state of Georgia. I'm also the executive director of the

Georgia Tennis Foundation as well. So I have two hats on this particular job. I wear only

association side and then on the foundation side trying to stimulate the GTF and

get money in the hands of folks that are doing some great things to help kids both on and off the court.

So, but yeah, we're the governing body of tennis for Georgia. We do a lot of things here.

Obviously we have the biggest league program in the country, basically, particularly in Atlanta.

You know, we have our state championships and the culmination of that. On the junior side,

we are we sanctioned a run all the junior tournaments that are in Georgia from the level 5,

6 and 7, and then we have a bunch others as well. And we have two national championships coming up

here in our state in a week or two, which we help out with those. And then just all of our community

outreach, we're a community tennis association state. So we support our 19 community tennis associations,

all across the state and they're all different. UST Atlanta, which most people know, is the biggest

one in the country in terms of size and budget and the way they conduct their business. And then

you have an association like Mitchell County Community Tennis Association down in Camilla that's

basically one street with four courts, it's a great clay courts. And so it's a big difference with

those two, you know, how we try to support those two amongst all the others. We've got some great

CTAs in our state. We actually have three of our CTAs in the last 10 years have won the national CTA,

the year award with the only state in the country that can save out Savannah, UST Atlanta, and then

Columbus Regional Tennis Association, which if you played some of their events at Cooper Creek,

you know, they're a great organization. And they do a fantastic job. So day to day, that's kind of what

we do here. We're just trying to, you know, constantly, you know, how can we help our players? How can we

help our captains? Is there a huge part of our growth? How can we help our coordinators? Our volunteer

base? It's kind of what keeps me up at night. Thank you. Yeah, how do I do more? And that's one of the

questions we ask a lot because it isn't just a job pull an 11. We're not just completing our day

at 5 p.m. and going home and being done with it, you know, more to do. And with you being a bit in the

spotlight as the governing body of tennis in Georgia, there's always Bobby and I hear it all the time.

There's always complaints. I'm sure. We never do enough. Does it feel like that when you leave the

office at the end of the day? I mean, like any job, right? I mean, there's you end up doing 75%

of the things you're not thrilled about doing so you can do the 25% you'd love to do. I mean, that goes

with anything. It's not just this role. Probably your role, any other role in and out of tennis. So,

yeah, sure. And, you know, sometimes where we run into problems and it's really no fault of our own,

it's really no fault of the players is here in specifically Atlanta, the UST landscape tends to be

modeled and confused. I always say our organization is kind of like the Jan Brady of Georgia,

Georgia tennis for the middle child because we have, you know, UST Atlanta, which everybody knows of.

And then we have UST Southern, which is our section, which happens to have their offices here in

Atlanta. And then us. So a lot of times where we run into problems is when players don't understand,

well, this is a Southern procedure or Southern tournament or Southern league championship.

And they come to us. They're upset about it. And certainly we're going to listen and do what we can.

But there are some things we truly can't help them with because there aren't our events. Or their

UST Atlanta is, you know, that we give them the autonomy to do make decisions. So that has been a

significant challenge for me. And in the 11 years I've been here, I came here from Southern California,

where we were kind of our own entity. We did everything ourselves. I was directed to your competition

for 15 years in that section before I came here. So definitely was a difference. But that's probably,

you know, one of our biggest challenges is, and I'm not huge on branding and marketing. I mean,

it's important. But nobody, nobody really knows who we are. Right? Nobody really knows what we do.

And sometimes that works in our advantage. But most times it's because we're kind of the middle UST

entity out there. And people, you know, when you say USTA, everybody in Atlanta, of course, thinks

of UST Atlanta, which is great. They're a great organization. And we try to help them as best we can.

But that's been a challenge here, I'd say. Well, interesting you say you're not big on the

marketing and branding, but you've got some marketing experience as a role in your background, right?

A little bit, a little bit. I mean, I think especially when the pandemic hit, we had to kind of pivot

and start doing things differently, just like you did. With, you know, more importance on social media

and video. We've got two very talented marketing folks on our staff. So, you know, I didn't go to

school for marketing. Marketing to me is the ultimate amoeba. It's really hard for anyone to define it.

It's different for everybody. So we've tried to, you know, really improve our social media presence.

Specifically focusing on Facebook and Instagram and kind of ignoring some of the other platforms to

be honest, because that's the one thing you learn. You probably know this. You can't, you can't be

everywhere every time, all the time when you end up diluting yourself. So, so yeah, I've got a little

little marketing experience, but I don't call myself a marketer. I mean, Lindsay and Reagan do a

fantastic job here, but everybody's job is marketing. And we have a saying here in our organization where

if you leave the job of marketing up to the marketing department, we're in trouble.

Everybody's job to market. Whether you're in the grocery store and, you know, in the frozen

food aisle, talking spice rack, talk tennis, you do a great job of that. You know, trying to spread

the good word about what tennis is, how it's so great for kids, the health benefits, and to try to

keep tennis relevant in the marketplace, which is, you know, as the years go by, hasn't gotten any

easier, depending on it's gotten harder. Yeah, I think Bobby would jump in and say, are we going to

make tennis relevant again? Is it that bad? Are we still, Bobby, just trying to make tennis cool again?

Well, I think it can be cool, but it'd probably be better to be relevant.

That's true. Yeah, probably true. And so executive director, what does that mean? You walked us through

kind of what is supposed to happen and all the things, but your role as middle child executive

director is, is it underneath Southern and a belt, Atlanta, or are you all basically separate

entities doing separate things? Well, we are, we're together, but we're separate. We're technically

separate organizations, right? And it causes some issues. However, yeah, I would say, you know,

yeah, certainly there's a lot of things I help Southern with being a state ED, but ultimately,

it's to try to make sure organization is functioning the way it should be, both from a fiduciary

standpoint and a responsibility standpoint. Are we trying, are we fulfilling our mission?

Are we, are we fulfilling our strategic plan as best we can? We've got a staff of 13 people,

me being one of the 13 year that I oversee, although we obviously have a structure like any other

organization, it's not like I oversee, you know, all 12 people at once. When I first got here,

it was kind of set up that way and I made a few changes to try to not only give some of our staff

more responsibility to prepare them for their next job, but also, you know, that I can, that I can,

that I can, you know, make sure I have time for people I need. And then of course, now with the foundation,

I've taken some of my time as well, I'm trying to get that organization back,

functioning again and acting like like a true 501C3 and we made a lot of progress over the last few years.

So, so yeah, there, you know, every time I walk in here every day, it's something different, but

ultimately, my responsibility is to be the best leader I can to our staff and our volunteers.

And that's what we try to do. You mentioned mission and Bobby and I have talked a lot about mission and

I have talked Bobby off the ledge a couple of times when he complains to see a national mission, you know,

is it this or is it that and are they really doing it and what do they really care about? Yeah, mission

and I want to talk about the mission of the foundation as well, but starting with where we were just now

with yours at state, is your mission different from the national mission? How do you separate those

things? Yeah, boy, your ears must have been burning. Our mission has been different. Well, it's been

the same for a long time from when developed the growth of tennis and then we add across the heat

Georgia, right? And Dr. Brian Hayline is the president of the USTA now and he

dis while he didn't just decide, I mean, obviously the board agreed to change the USTA national

mission statement to and I don't have it memorized. I'm sorry, it just got changed, but it basically talks

it off, you know, using tennis to promote and inspire healthier communities everywhere because I think

Dr. Hayline given his background is a huge proponent of the health benefits, the defined health

benefits of tennis that have been studied by independent parties, things that we really can't,

you know, I mean, US, sometimes USTA will commission a study and then oh, this the results are great,

right? Well, you commissioned it. Well, now we've got some studies that they actually didn't commission

that have come back and say, you know, tennis adds potentially seven to ten years of your life.

It's a great sport for this reason, this reason, this reason. So that's why they changed the mission

statement. Organization actually is in the middle of debating whether to change ours and my guess is

we will by the end of the year to align ourselves because southern change theirs to align with,

you know, just to try to get us all in the same, you know, the same stair step. And again, it's just,

on the surface is just a statement, it's just words, but it's also very, very important that

that's a daily fabric or weekly fabric of what we're doing. Are we promoting our health

benefits enough? Are we inspiring communities to get better everywhere? Are we, you know,

exposing the virtues of tennis? I mean, I'm biased and I know I hope you guys agree. I mean, to me,

the best sport ever for a junior player to play is tennis. Now there are other great sports,

but you know, tennis they learn to problem solve. They learn to

stand up for themselves sometimes, right? You know, they don't get pushed over.

They learn how to conflict resolute without swinging at each other. They also learn a moral and

ethical sport where every time the ball comes on their side of the net, they have a short term moral

gain. They can just call it out, right? Whereas what they do is isn't really, isn't going to help them

there. Steven Enix is one in our Hall of Fame said a lot of times when he's thinking about going into

business with someone he likes to play tennis with them because he figures if they're a good

person on the tennis court, chances are they're going to act that way in the business world,

which I've always, that's an interesting comment he made and it's probably spot on. So it's a great sport.

We have to do a better job of tuning tennis is horn. You know, we've really never had to advocate

for our sport very much. And now of course with the landscape, but is now we have to advocate and it's not

something we're great at because we haven't had to do it before. I'm so thankful for people like you

guys, Sean and Bobby that are out there and you're doing your part to try to advocate for the sport.

So long winded answer. Yes, we're very likely going to change our mission statement. So it's interesting

you ask that question. I say, Bobby, you want to walk through a mission statement conversation for a

few minutes? Oh boy, you know, I'm locked and loaded here. And I agree with you, Dad, I mean,

I'm sitting here listening to what you're saying about what a great sport it is from the physical

capacity. What a from a mental capacity. If it's such a fantastic sport, why are we ranked 26 or

27th recreationally behind darts? I'm actually not to change. I'm actually the biggest American fan

of professional darts. Okay, so, but that's a good thing. So you're promoted. But I'm not recreation

there. Trust me, the people are drinking watching. So that's right. Well, they're drinking tennis too.

If you go and you know, and again, not to the little because you've put everything about

USDA in Atlanta, there's another elephant in the room where as a tennis instructor, people don't

ask me if I teach tennis. They ask me, can I do, do we play out there? Oh, sure. So you have to overcome

out and I always feel like, do we not want to acknowledge that beast in the room? I mean, you know,

if we all laugh, it's our best friend in our worst enemy because of the way people and the

reverence to Alta. But if we have such a great product, why does the USDA struggle to promote it?

And why, you know, is it a great thing in a world where marketing drives everything, whatever

that definition like be, that we're just realizing that marketing is important?

Oh, I agree with you. We've been later to the table than we should have been. I'm talking about

as a sport. I'm not pointing a finger at us or anybody else, but I think as a group, we've,

you know, again, we just over the years, there really hasn't been a need to advocate and we need to

do a better job of that. But specific to Alta, you know, coming from my background, I come in here,

and obviously, you know, that's, you know, as you mentioned, the elephant in the room, and there's this,

you know, perception of competition between the two organizations, which there is. Let's, you know,

let's call us beta-spaid, but I actually argue the reason why UST Atlanta has the largest adult

league of UST in the country by far is because of Alta. There's no doubt. Alta's actually helped,

and Alta helps promote the sport. Now, you know, the two organizations are set up differently,

obviously. I have friends in the Alta leadership. When I first got here, it turned out that the new

president of Alta was my mother-in-law's doubles partner. So I had a personal connection. We're able to

sit down and try to partner a little bit with things. You know, we've reached out to Alta a few

times to try to partner with a few things. We're a little bit of success. You know, I just, I hope,

sometimes, you know, sometimes maybe they don't see the force through the trees a little bit. They're,

you know, it's an insular organization, very, you know, Atlanta-based. There's a big world out there

than just Atlanta guys, but they do a great job with that. But yeah, it is a competitive, there is

some competition between the organizations, but I think, you know, in some ways, you know, Alta's

could be, Alta's one of our biggest advocates for the sport. I mean, if you go around, this doesn't

happen anywhere else in the country because, you know, there have been many places where you go around

and you see courts and neighborhoods and people are playing and the social element of it and,

you know, it's been a good thing. It's been, it's been a great thing for tennis in Atlanta, but, you know,

tennis in Atlanta, I think we know the people like to play, they don't necessarily like to watch very

much. They're that culture. Nothing wrong with it. It's just the way it is. So, but to circle back to

your original question, you know, we just, we just need to do a better job of advocating what our

sport can give to communities and societies, a whole, the, most of the kids that play tennis are

academically stronger. That's why we try to support our NJTLs as much as we can because there's an

academic element as well as tennis. We got a long way to go, my friend, where, where as you mentioned,

where, yeah, I mean, whether I'm not sure, you know, whether we're 23, 24, whatever it is, we're not

number one, we're not in the top five. I can tell you that for sure. So, I think our parks, you know,

I learned how to play in the park system. I question whether that's as strong as it used to be.

Unfortunately, we got to do better job with that. So, but, you know, sitting here, it's, you know,

we're one organization and sometimes we can get overwhelmed like, oh my god, all these things we

got to do and, and, and we just got to try to, you know, do better every single day to get the message

of the sport out as best we can. But I'm not, I'm not debating any of your statements. I think you're

spot on on that. No, and I said, I brought it up because I kind of heard the frustration in your

voice in just the position that you're in and it goes back to the mission. For better or worse,

yes, we all look at out and say, God, you could do so much more, but they'll sit there and tell you,

our mission statement is to run a successful league in Atlanta. Well, they do a darn good job of that.

If that's their mission statement, they're not going to get out of the park and there's no argument

there. Yeah, we all look at and say, God, you don't, you're, you're the leader of tennis in this city,

but this is what they want to do. I get it. So, where does the USDA come in? And that's always been

my question for the USDA. Is it promoting the game or is it developing players because as being on

both sides of it, being having been on the business side, put out professional events and being on

the coaching side, working at facilities, there's a lot of miss messages. We sure. And that makes it

hard and that of roads confidence in where we're going. Yeah. And like you said, we're at a point

now where if you look at the sport and you look at the athletes that are playing it, it is a top three

sport as far as what you have playing the game. And it's disappointing that there's not an American.

I always felt that we relied on an American great to that's how we grew the game. If we had Jimmy Connors,

we had John McEnroe, we had Chris Everett, we had Pete Sanfors, we had Andre Agassi,

we were we were not going to add the park. When we lose those guys, we don't do a great job of selling

the game. We sell personalities. We don't sell the game. Yeah. Well, a couple things. I don't

you want to respond. Hang on a second. I want to disagree a little in this space because I think

those guys at the top were more of a product of the game, not needing to promote itself and being

so popular. So he and I, we don't completely disagree, but he kind of thinks one begat the other and

I'm a little bit on the other side and say, if we grow the game, those players emerge as opposed to

using the famous player of the game, which maybe that's a chicken the egg problem. Yeah. I think both

could be true. I mean, obviously, I was in Southern California as a player when Pete was growing up

in Michael and Andre played all all our tournaments. And, you know, in the old days, the USDA

for better or for worse, kind of forced the players to play locally. There wasn't all this craziness

going on with all these events. And it was a lot easier for players to get better quickly in certain

parts of the country because frankly, you don't want to lose to that player, right? It's easy for

you to go 2,000 miles away and lose in a random level two in which it's all Kansas, then go down the street

and play your neighbor and lose to them. And, you know, now, they're a good and bad to it, but that,

you know, our mindset in Southern California is that's what developed champions, right?

And then we lost that when the optimum schedule got put in. I mean, if you're familiar with that and

points per round and all this other stuff happens. So, but, you know, from the coaching perspective,

I mean, I'll put my, I mean, I haven't been directly involved on the competitive side

for 10 or 11 years now, but I was for a long time. And I'm still, you know, I'm still

international official and I'm, you know, I'm still involved in it. But I have always felt very

strongly and Bill Rambo, who is our president of Southern California, always, one of the smartest

people anyone has ever met, the USDA volunteer used to say that there are four things that make a great

player. Okay? He says, number one, the player themselves wants to have to be great. Okay? Because if they

don't want to be great, they're never going to make it. They'll make it to a level and then something

will happen if they're not playing for the right reasons, it'll eventually show up. A lot of times

with the kids, it shows up in high school. Sometimes the better players, it shows up the first year of

college. Hence, while you see all these players going off to school, transferring, you know, whatever.

Number two, he said they have to come from a stable family environment of a loving environment

as best they can because this is a hard sport. Things are going to happen and they need to have

that unconditional love and support at home no matter what happens. They're going to make mistakes.

Number three, he says at some point in their junior career, they have to get lucky and the right

coach has to show up at the right time for their development. And a lot of times that's not mom and dad.

Okay? That's somebody else. And whether it's by luck or by chance, or the parents are smart enough

to figure that out. And then number four, which Bobby, I think you'll appreciate, he always said

they need to live in an area that has an association that can provide a structure to develop to show their

talents. So from the from the federation standpoint, this is just my opinion, right? I'll speak for the

USDA. I have always been against our significant national coaching programs because to me, the private

sector does this better. I mean, remember where I used to live, I had landstorped down the street.

It would tell you how what he thought of you in two seconds. Dennis Riza, all these guys, some of

the greatest coaches in the country. These guys can coach these players better than I can. Or somebody

else, our job is to provide a structure. Our job is to provide as best determined structures we can.

And then at the pro level, provide enough opportunities at the entry level for those kids, for those

players to be able to play and move up and not have this extensive, you know, you still have to have

some national coaches because you got teams and international teams. And Martin's done a pretty good

job with that. But you know, again, that's been a debate with USDA since, you know, when it was

whenever the 80s or 90s. I mean, I remember when Greg Patton left college and became, you know, our

national coach for Southern California, everybody thought, you know, this guy's a joke. He doesn't know

anything. Honestly, Greg and Wayne Bryan were the two people I've seen that got kids excited about

playing better than anybody. And we need that in the organization. When the USDA kind of went

at them a little bit, particularly with Wayne, it actually hurt the sport. I'm 10 off a tangent

here a little bit. But that's my personal opinion. You know, specific to Georgia, we try to have as

many, you know, camps as we can for our younger kids with different kind of coaches. So that way,

they maybe get a different perspective and get to meet who they're going to be playing. I mean,

they're going to be playing against these players for, you know, maybe 40 years, 60 years. I mean,

I still, I remember I played Southern Cal, junior tennis and one of the guys I ended up playing UCSB,

one of the guys I played with, he and I, I mean, hate is a strong word, but we had some not very pleasant

matches in the juniors. And I remember the first day of practice on my dude, it's over. We're teammates

now. Let's go have a beer. Oh, wait, we're not 21. Yeah, I mean, it's a debate when the new organization,

but I've always felt the private sector does it better. I'm not just saying that because you're

sitting here, I honestly believe that they do it better. He'd be a debate. One of the things, Bobby,

I think is one of the things you always say is about how many social players we have, the goal is

often just to get the kid in college because we got, we do have this, the structure here in Georgia.

We do have a lot of strong families in the areas where tennis is really popular. Yeah. What we also have

is parents using tennis to get maybe a scholarship or get into school, at least put it on the resume,

but it isn't really a, my kid's going to go be pro kind of scenario. Bobby, what did you say recently?

Or it was something about why don't we have the most division one athletes coming out of Georgia

because of the structure here? Well, you would think we have the most players. Therefore, it lends

itself just from the market perspective. If we have the most players, then we have the most division

one. Shouldn't we be producing the most numbers again? And I'll go, I agree with you, Darren,

about what it takes to go to another level. The outliers are always a different examination.

And though I would argue about your friend about a stable household because I'm not sure Jimmy Connors

and the Murray's, there's a lot of unstable deagacies. There's a lot of unstable tennis households that

are completely familiar with. But I do think there's something that I love the California example.

Like you said, I say the same thing about myself. People ask me, did you pay tournaments? I said,

no, I didn't have to play tournaments. I could lose 16 times in my club. I didn't need to drive anywhere

further than my club to play a tournament. You know, at that time when you're a child, you don't

realize who you're playing against. And when we get older, that makes you feel a little bit better about

those losses. And I agree. And I know it's financial, but if our goal is really tried to, I'm amazed.

We were down at the event last night and we're watching television. They had the tennis channel on

because it's raining. And we're watching all the tournaments that are being played around the world

on this particular day. From I'd be six, seven, we have one basketball league. We have one football league.

Tennis just spreads itself out. I mean, there was an, a tournament in check. I've been progged.

It looked like they were playing in a high school court. Yeah, you know, you had two rows of

fans watching, which is great. But I don't think that's helped. I don't know. Like you said, that's

to me is we're not helping tennis. We should be doing it more together, providing more opportunities

for the folks, the kids, where they feel like there's a path. I mean, you have 1500 people playing

football that all make money. We don't have, we barely have a hundred tennis players that make money

to sustain a career. Well, I mean, in the ATP, I mean, there's some things out there now that

come through are going to be shocking. But they're, I think they're understanding that whether,

you know, because if you do make top 100, you can basically, you know, catch for our first round

losses in the slams and make it because you're getting six figures. That's kind of been always

the threshold. But, you know, listen, tennis changed when it became an Olympic sport. That was the

one decision that changed the sport forever because what it did was it basically gave an incentive

to all these nations across the world, the ability to fund training programs for their young players

to try to potentially become an Olympic champion. And a lot of the countries actually American coaches

are the ones that developed their programs for them because I had four or five friends in the 90s

spend a considerable amount of time in China and Serbia developing their program because the

government's like, well, it's an Olympic sport now. We got to, we got to get, you know, we got to

get these things. Now, you know, keep in mind, you mentioned all these events this week. There's

Kitzbjul, Prague and Umag, you know, the federations are all funding all that basically. I would,

I would guess I don't have it for a fact. But my guess is, is that the federation is probably

writing the checks for all those events to keep to keep them going. And that's the difference between

us and a lot of the other nations. I mean, most of the countries out there that are serious about

playing tennis, you know, I hate to say it, they're not really that interested in community tennis.

Right. They don't care. They figure somebody else is going to do that. Our job is to all of our

resources go to player development and high-levelite juniors and professional tennis and try to

get our players as quickly as we can up to that. Now, you know, has it worked for them? Maybe

because I don't know the, you know, you don't see the other side of that, the casualty of whether

or not the sport is thriving in there. I mean, I think I would say in Serbia, it certainly is because

of Novak. Right. So, you know, that, that model, I think what you are arguing is the players

grow the game. That, that certainly probably has worked in, in, in Serbia. Maybe some of the other

countries, not so much, but it's just a different mindset, you know, and obviously in Europe, it's

much easier to travel and, you know, country to country and it's, and it's easier. It's, you know,

it's not an excuse. It's just the way it is. So, it's just kind of a culture of our country. So,

I don't have, and we don't propose to have the answers. What all we are asking for is like you said,

let's get it, come up with a statement saying, this is what we're going to be, what we're going to

be, or we're going to try to be, stick to it and then let other entities be comfortable taking the

ball and run with it. I don't care. Again, whatever everybody decides, but let's make a decision. Let's

stick to it and then let's continue to let everybody else contribute and help out without feeling like,

all right, am I overstepping my bounds? Is this the, because to me, there's a, there's a huge

difference between growing the game and developing players. Like you said, developing, big, big

difference. I want, you know, 10 players, like you said, fame was unbelievably successful in the 90s

and the early 2000s. They had a lot of people that you'd see semi-finals plus. How many people were

playing in Spain? We don't know that. And then they slipped for a while and now they're back. You

know, and the Spanish Federation had a, had a philosophy where they did not feel any of, they did,

if you watched all their players, never played the junior grand slams of the high level IT

of juniors. That was their philosophy. We're going to, we're going to flood our country with

pro-circuit, 15 and 25 K events. That's where they're going to learn to develop. And for a while,

it was working for them, all of a sudden, a different. Last year, the US Open Boys champion was from Spain

for the first time in, Martin Landeluse, first time in quite many years, because they're like, you know,

what? That isn't working. We got to pivot. There's a, there's a development model here. So I've always

felt very strongly from a, if you're specifically talking about developing players, you know, we need more

low-level professional events in this country. And we started flooding the market for a long time.

And as a result, I think, you know, we started getting a lot more players in the top 200 and 100

that we never used to. Now, have we had anybody break through yet? No, and that's, you know, on, you

know, that's something that frustrates all of us. All three of us on this column sure frustrated by it.

But then, then the financial side of it hits. It's like, you know, at some point, these events

are costly. And, you know, that if you, you know, it's all a debate, do all of it. Who does it? Who does it?

You know, the USTA's perspective now, this year is like, we got to support our bigger events more.

That's where the points are. We got to get these kids. We got to get these guys from 100 to 200 into

the top 100 as quickly as we can. Well, you can't do that by spending all your budget money by

funding a whole bunch of 15Ks. Right. So that's why they're helping the challenge level. And the 15Ks

are kind of on their own. That's why this year, you saw a whole bunch of them disappear around the country.

Now, they've started to pick back up again. But we, I mean, you know, we can talk about this all day. It's

just a different philosophy. They'll know right wrong. I believe what I believe, I believe that it's

that the player will learn what it's like to be a trooper, a professional on the pro circuit.

That's what I believe based on all my experience. I'm not saying I'm right. Some other people

believe, believe differently, you know, and think things change. You know, when the Olympics came in,

and then when the ITF for the junior grand slam decided to get rid of country quotas and all the

players all of a sudden how to get down their own, well, guess what? If you're a junior and you want to

get into the US open on your own, you're probably never going to play US T junior event ever again.

Because you got to go chase points. You know, it used to be that the US, the ITF would give the US

like 10 spots. And the US would come up with a procedure how they would come up with the 10 now.

That went away, you know, 10, 15 years ago. And so that player behavior changed.

And not for the better, in my opinion. Yeah. Well, I completely agree with you as far as

historically the way to grow the, you know, if you wanted that player, they had to learn how to compete.

The only way they're going to learn how to compete is to play at the highest level. I'm interested

to see 10 years from now, this conversation with now with with the colleges and the N I L money.

That's that's a whole nother variable that's getting thrown into this equation that, yeah, we don't

even know yet. We're seeing it have it in the sports that are seemingly organized with basketball

and football. What is it going to do to tennis? I mean, you could schools could literally just decide,

hey, we're going to be a tennis powerhouse. This is going to be our gig. We're going to put our money

into this and you know, change the landscape completely. So there's even more that's going on.

That's going to change the way this is this whole works out. Hey, if N I L exists to when I play it,

I'm confident I would have gotten like 20 bucks and a couple pizzas. It's the all. Mama's pizza handshake.

Exactly. Yeah, but no, the whole college landscape's changing. You know, now a lot of the players,

you know, Bobby, your member years ago was taboo to go to college if you dare want to play professional

tennis. And that's what the USDA was saying, not saying, but their actions were showing that. Now,

you'd be stupid not to go play. I agree. You got to hold your mouth. You got to go. You should

go to the men's side. There's no way you're going to be ready at 18. I mean, such an outward.

And again, and again, and I appreciate everything you're saying. Why doesn't somebody come out and say,

rather just put it all in the coach. Look, as a guys, as a 17, 18 year old boy,

you're that you're a boy still. You're going to need a couple years physicality to get to that level.

So, hey, either be prepared and be prepared to lose or like you said, college should be a viable option.

Let yourself grow up, then put your time into it. And I think that to me is the only thing that I ask

of when we talk about these things is that there seems to me is a leadership vacuum in tennis.

And that's unfortunate at a point where the sport is so good. You know, it shouldn't be

three guys in, you know, talking about it, hitting our head against the wall. This is something that

we should be able to just say, look what just happened at Wimbledon. Look what's going to happen

in French. I mean, we play on different surfaces, different times of the year. You have temperature.

You have, I mean, it's unbelievable what these guys do. And it's just unfortunate. It seems that

these, they don't get enough credit and and sell the game that way too. Look, why is pickleball taking off?

It's easier. It's a lot easier. You don't have to be a skilled. Well, that's not debated.

I mean, it's not a big knowledge. We should use pickleballs and entry to tennis. Look, you enjoy pickleball.

You got fairly proficient on it. I have the sport that's even going to challenge you more.

Yeah, rather than look at as a rival, they could hurt the game.

Yeah. And there's been a lot of mixed messaging in our own organization about how we,

you know, treat pickleball. I'm 10 more on your side. I mean, my only issue with the pickleball folks

sometimes is sometimes their facts aren't quite spot on in terms of, but you know what they've done,

a really good job of, I mean, the one thing we can learn from the pickleball group is boy,

they're great advocates. Yeah. They do a great job. And so can we learn from them a little bit? And

can we transition some of those people? But you know, a lot of them don't really want to because I

hate to say it off the record. They don't really want to move very much. Right? So maybe there's a

maybe there's a red ball, adult red ball potential where you're actually hitting a tennis ball.

The sports can coexist, right? It's not, you know, plus the pickleball folks are starting to get upset

because all the best tennis players are coming over to pickleball and kicking their, you know, what's,

right? Yes. Page of the game. I'm not racing was telling me that the director of tennis and

Anselies like man, the people, people aren't fans of theirs because they just go into pickleball

and destroy everybody. I watched a jack sock highlight on the pickleball court. He crushed a

forehand on one point. Next point, he crushed a forehand, came in crushed a volley and did the

point to start. So there's no more dinking and dinking in and pickleball with these guys. Donnell

Young and jack sock are not going to dinking doing too much. They're going to grip and rip. And it's

going to change the whole perspective of the game. So yeah, they're about to go through a little bit

of a chance to which will be interesting. But we're not rivals. Yeah, we're not. I mean,

they've got they've got a ways to go that, you know, somebody will take them on. Someone will

go, you know, I can do this better than you can. And you know, it's competitions like some of the USDA

and some of the other leagues and stuff. I mean, it's ultimately though it's people playing, right? I

mean, that's what we have to, you know, if we didn't care who got the credit, it's amazing. We'll

be in a week and accomplish, right? So, you know, ultimately, it's people on the court enjoying the sport.

Okay? Yes. Amen. We can. The problem is is when our

parent organization puts stipulations on how things have to be and we have to kind of fit into their box

and not criticizing because I mean, that's just that's just life. I mean, everybody has everybody has a

boss. I mean, Bob, you have one, Sean. Yes. You have one. I mean, you know, for me, it's not just my

wife, it's them. So, you know, ultimately, you can't just quote, do whatever you want. But you

would hope that, you know, you'd get some flexibility to really promote the sport rather than, you know,

fit into our own little box here. And, you know, we could we could spend hours talking about that. But that

that's always kind of been our, you know, last couple of years, our goal is, you know, yes, our CTAs

are important, but you know, other people are out there delivering tennis as well. What have we done

for those people? For example, like the teaching professionals in the, you know, in the in the Metro

and Lanare, we have some great fantastic and we have we have such a great organization with GPTA.

So we were really, really lucky to, you know, be a part of keeping them alive when they were struggling

a little bit and they're flourishing now and it's a it's a great thing, you know, it's a great thing

for for our community to have that doesn't happen everywhere. That is true. And we're we're

thankfully for your support of the GPTA. We've been working with them a lot over the last couple

of years and they're doing good things here and we we support all the things that they don't have

the band with the handle. You talk about doing which makes me want to ask you our King of Tennis

question before we run out of time. Sure. Obviously, you're over here. Bobby. Where am I? You know,

it's for Darin before I hit him with King of Tennis. No, Darin, I appreciate and I appreciate your

honesty, sir. Yeah, let's let's let's grab a lunch some time and keep the conversation going.

Absolutely. Love to. Yeah. Nice shades too, by the way. I have old age band two thousand.

They look great. You look messed up for the podcast. It holds it hides the crow's feet around the

eyes too. You know, being the oldest man in the room, I got to hide it a little bit. I'm getting there.

So we have what I always call my favorite question and we ask at the end, if you were King of Tennis,

whether it's USDA, the world, professional, social, at any level, if you were King of Tennis for

however long it takes, is there anything you would do or change?

We're a good question. I really think it's time for a commissioner.

Ooh, I mean, I know there was. I know I like this man. I know I like that.

I'm not just saying that just to, you know, but I knew there were rumors, you know, years ago that

Mackinar was going to do it. And, you know, he certainly would be an interesting person.

You know, there are so many entities right now in tennis. There's no way everyone's going to be on

the same page on everything. And, you know, it would be nice to have a respected figure that the public,

that the person walking on the street here and like in Thurbera Racing, you know, everybody know,

everybody knew Wayne Lucas. I might not know what the sport is, but they know who that is. It would

be the same in tennis of anyone. Pick up all, you know, it would be someone that every

person in this country would at least have some name recognition to give the sport some more stature

amongst, you know, the general public. That would be my, I'm not, you know, I mean, John obviously

would make some sense because he's done a lot for the sport. I mean, you know, listen, everybody has

skeletons. I do, everybody does. He's gotten as well. But I would love to, I would love to see that. And,

and, you know, and then the organization's truly not just saying it truly wanting to, you know,

they can stay autonomous, but they're going to have to agree on certain things for the good of the

sport. And I think that's where the commissioner could come help and try to get, you know, they're not

able to move a mountain, but at least, you know, start moving the hill and flatten the hill out because,

you know, it's a climb, right? I mean, we're climbing. And unfortunately, our force is against us. So,

so yeah, there's a lot of other things, but I think that'd be the first thing. I think it's, I think

it's time in the, in the media age that we're in now, someone that is recognizable with experience

there, experience with marketing the sport. I mean, you mentioned Darts. I mean, Barry Hurne,

the guy, the guy was absolutely amazing how he turned Darts into the second biggest spectator sport in

Europe in two years. Okay. And he just, you know, and he just didn't do that overnight. He, he had a

plan and a strategy. We need somebody like that in tennis that can sell the sport, tell the stories of

the players, make these players at the top of the game, you know, recognizable to, you know, you know,

ESPN types, those types of folks. So I think, I think it's time, but certainly not me or, or, you know,

wouldn't be me, of course, but somebody's, I don't know, I can't know or somebody. Well, I don't know

why it wouldn't be you. Well, but this is one, and this is one argument I would have with tennis right

away. And we're all guilty of it. I'm fairly confident, David Stern never played basketball.

The strong fairly confident Gary Betman never played hockey. I don't understand why we think these,

like you said, the majority of the problems we have in the sport of business decisions. Yeah.

It's okay to find a businessman who has an affinity for tennis and has an understanding of the game.

Just because we always laugh about even at the lowest levels just because you're a good head pro,

doesn't mean you're a good director. It's two different job skills attached. Your top sales guy

should not necessarily become your sales manager because there's two different skills that are

involved in reaching those levels. And I agree with you. I think tennis defaults too quickly to,

we need a new commitment. Oh, what was the last head of Wilson doing? Let's go higher him. Right.

You know, I'd be interested as I said, I want to go with higher the guy from NASCAR who markets only

less earns or the guy from WWE who markets something where we all know there's a pre-decided ending to it.

But yet people come in and are entertained by it. I think we limit ourselves if we look to the

usual suspects. I said, David Stern probably arguably the greatest commissioner grew a sport.

You hear this great today with all the podcasts. You hear all the behind-the-scenes stories and how

the players were shocked that he would bring him into the office in Yellowdum. And big, grown,

egotistical men would sit there and say, and listen because he put so much money in their pocket

if there was no argument. Right. That's true. I mean, Mark Ein is someone I know that has tremendous

business acumen that loves tennis. That'd be a potential person or somebody like a Mark Cuban.

We could figure out a Mark Cuban to get interest in tennis. So it doesn't have to be a player.

I'm looking for somebody that either exactly what you just said has that background or if not,

someone that every single person on the street has heard. Well, there you have it. We want to thank

reGeovinate.com for use of the studio and be sure to hit that follow button. For more tennis-related

content, you can go to AtlantaTennisPodcast.com. And while you're there, check out our calendar of

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