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The Executive Director of USTA Georgia has some thoughts on tennis, racquet sports, and how the "business of tennis" should adjust in the future.
Episode 86 β€’ 30th October 2024 β€’ Atlanta Tennis Podcast β€’ Shaun Boyce and Bobby Schindler
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Season #24 Episode#:85

Shaun and Bobby talk to Darren Potkey. Darren is the Executive Director of USTA Georgia as well as the Georgia Tennis Foundation.

YouTube Full Video: https://youtu.be/Jz6vSODik_Q

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More about Darren: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darren-potkey-7320411a7

Shaun Boyce USPTA: shaun@tennisforchildren.com

https://tennisforchildren.com/ 🎾

Bobby Schindler USPTA: schindlerb@comcast.net

https://windermerecommunity.net/ 🎾

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Transcripts

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[Music]

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Welcome to the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.

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Every episode is titled "It starts with tennis" and goes from there.

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We talk with coaches, club managers, industry business professionals,

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technology experts, and anyone else we find interesting.

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We want to have a conversation as long as it starts with tennis.

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[Music]

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Hey, hey, this is Shaun with the Atlanta Tennis Podcast, powered by GoTennis.

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Check out our calendar of Metro Atlanta tennis events at LetsGoTennis.com

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and be sure to register for the GoTennis Fall Festival coming up on November 9th at James Creek

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Tennis Center. It's going to be awesome. And now let's get into our recent conversation with Darren

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Potkey. Darren is the executive director of USDA Georgia at the state level as well as executive

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director of the Georgia Tennis Foundation. Have a listen and let us know what you think.

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Who are you and why do we care? Yeah, good question. I asked me the same thing.

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Got the time, but no, I'm Darren Potkey. I'm currently the executive director of USTA Georgia or

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the Georgia Tennis Association where our legal name is. We're the national, we're the governing

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body of the sport in the USTA for the state of Georgia. I'm also the executive director of the

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Georgia Tennis Foundation as well. So I have two hats on this particular job. I wear only

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association side and then on the foundation side trying to stimulate the GTF and

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get money in the hands of folks that are doing some great things to help kids both on and off the court.

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So, but yeah, we're the governing body of tennis for Georgia. We do a lot of things here.

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Obviously we have the biggest league program in the country, basically, particularly in Atlanta.

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You know, we have our state championships and the culmination of that. On the junior side,

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we are we sanctioned a run all the junior tournaments that are in Georgia from the level 5,

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6 and 7, and then we have a bunch others as well. And we have two national championships coming up

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here in our state in a week or two, which we help out with those. And then just all of our community

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outreach, we're a community tennis association state. So we support our 19 community tennis associations,

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all across the state and they're all different. UST Atlanta, which most people know, is the biggest

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one in the country in terms of size and budget and the way they conduct their business. And then

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you have an association like Mitchell County Community Tennis Association down in Camilla that's

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basically one street with four courts, it's a great clay courts. And so it's a big difference with

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those two, you know, how we try to support those two amongst all the others. We've got some great

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CTAs in our state. We actually have three of our CTAs in the last 10 years have won the national CTA,

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the year award with the only state in the country that can save out Savannah, UST Atlanta, and then

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Columbus Regional Tennis Association, which if you played some of their events at Cooper Creek,

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you know, they're a great organization. And they do a fantastic job. So day to day, that's kind of what

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we do here. We're just trying to, you know, constantly, you know, how can we help our players? How can we

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help our captains? Is there a huge part of our growth? How can we help our coordinators? Our volunteer

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base? It's kind of what keeps me up at night. Thank you. Yeah, how do I do more? And that's one of the

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questions we ask a lot because it isn't just a job pull an 11. We're not just completing our day

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at 5 p.m. and going home and being done with it, you know, more to do. And with you being a bit in the

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spotlight as the governing body of tennis in Georgia, there's always Bobby and I hear it all the time.

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There's always complaints. I'm sure. We never do enough. Does it feel like that when you leave the

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office at the end of the day? I mean, like any job, right? I mean, there's you end up doing 75%

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of the things you're not thrilled about doing so you can do the 25% you'd love to do. I mean, that goes

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with anything. It's not just this role. Probably your role, any other role in and out of tennis. So,

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yeah, sure. And, you know, sometimes where we run into problems and it's really no fault of our own,

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it's really no fault of the players is here in specifically Atlanta, the UST landscape tends to be

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modeled and confused. I always say our organization is kind of like the Jan Brady of Georgia,

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Georgia tennis for the middle child because we have, you know, UST Atlanta, which everybody knows of.

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And then we have UST Southern, which is our section, which happens to have their offices here in

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Atlanta. And then us. So a lot of times where we run into problems is when players don't understand,

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well, this is a Southern procedure or Southern tournament or Southern league championship.

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And they come to us. They're upset about it. And certainly we're going to listen and do what we can.

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But there are some things we truly can't help them with because there aren't our events. Or their

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UST Atlanta is, you know, that we give them the autonomy to do make decisions. So that has been a

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significant challenge for me. And in the 11 years I've been here, I came here from Southern California,

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where we were kind of our own entity. We did everything ourselves. I was directed to your competition

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for 15 years in that section before I came here. So definitely was a difference. But that's probably,

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you know, one of our biggest challenges is, and I'm not huge on branding and marketing. I mean,

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it's important. But nobody, nobody really knows who we are. Right? Nobody really knows what we do.

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And sometimes that works in our advantage. But most times it's because we're kind of the middle UST

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entity out there. And people, you know, when you say USTA, everybody in Atlanta, of course, thinks

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of UST Atlanta, which is great. They're a great organization. And we try to help them as best we can.

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But that's been a challenge here, I'd say. Well, interesting you say you're not big on the

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marketing and branding, but you've got some marketing experience as a role in your background, right?

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A little bit, a little bit. I mean, I think especially when the pandemic hit, we had to kind of pivot

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and start doing things differently, just like you did. With, you know, more importance on social media

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and video. We've got two very talented marketing folks on our staff. So, you know, I didn't go to

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school for marketing. Marketing to me is the ultimate amoeba. It's really hard for anyone to define it.

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It's different for everybody. So we've tried to, you know, really improve our social media presence.

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Specifically focusing on Facebook and Instagram and kind of ignoring some of the other platforms to

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be honest, because that's the one thing you learn. You probably know this. You can't, you can't be

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everywhere every time, all the time when you end up diluting yourself. So, so yeah, I've got a little

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little marketing experience, but I don't call myself a marketer. I mean, Lindsay and Reagan do a

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fantastic job here, but everybody's job is marketing. And we have a saying here in our organization where

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if you leave the job of marketing up to the marketing department, we're in trouble.

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Everybody's job to market. Whether you're in the grocery store and, you know, in the frozen

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food aisle, talking spice rack, talk tennis, you do a great job of that. You know, trying to spread

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the good word about what tennis is, how it's so great for kids, the health benefits, and to try to

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keep tennis relevant in the marketplace, which is, you know, as the years go by, hasn't gotten any

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easier, depending on it's gotten harder. Yeah, I think Bobby would jump in and say, are we going to

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make tennis relevant again? Is it that bad? Are we still, Bobby, just trying to make tennis cool again?

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Well, I think it can be cool, but it'd probably be better to be relevant.

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That's true. Yeah, probably true. And so executive director, what does that mean? You walked us through

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kind of what is supposed to happen and all the things, but your role as middle child executive

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director is, is it underneath Southern and a belt, Atlanta, or are you all basically separate

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entities doing separate things? Well, we are, we're together, but we're separate. We're technically

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separate organizations, right? And it causes some issues. However, yeah, I would say, you know,

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yeah, certainly there's a lot of things I help Southern with being a state ED, but ultimately,

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it's to try to make sure organization is functioning the way it should be, both from a fiduciary

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standpoint and a responsibility standpoint. Are we trying, are we fulfilling our mission?

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Are we, are we fulfilling our strategic plan as best we can? We've got a staff of 13 people,

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me being one of the 13 year that I oversee, although we obviously have a structure like any other

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organization, it's not like I oversee, you know, all 12 people at once. When I first got here,

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it was kind of set up that way and I made a few changes to try to not only give some of our staff

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more responsibility to prepare them for their next job, but also, you know, that I can, that I can,

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that I can, you know, make sure I have time for people I need. And then of course, now with the foundation,

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I've taken some of my time as well, I'm trying to get that organization back,

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functioning again and acting like like a true 501C3 and we made a lot of progress over the last few years.

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So, so yeah, there, you know, every time I walk in here every day, it's something different, but

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ultimately, my responsibility is to be the best leader I can to our staff and our volunteers.

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And that's what we try to do. You mentioned mission and Bobby and I have talked a lot about mission and

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I have talked Bobby off the ledge a couple of times when he complains to see a national mission, you know,

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is it this or is it that and are they really doing it and what do they really care about? Yeah, mission

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and I want to talk about the mission of the foundation as well, but starting with where we were just now

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with yours at state, is your mission different from the national mission? How do you separate those

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things? Yeah, boy, your ears must have been burning. Our mission has been different. Well, it's been

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the same for a long time from when developed the growth of tennis and then we add across the heat

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Georgia, right? And Dr. Brian Hayline is the president of the USTA now and he

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dis while he didn't just decide, I mean, obviously the board agreed to change the USTA national

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mission statement to and I don't have it memorized. I'm sorry, it just got changed, but it basically talks

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it off, you know, using tennis to promote and inspire healthier communities everywhere because I think

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Dr. Hayline given his background is a huge proponent of the health benefits, the defined health

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benefits of tennis that have been studied by independent parties, things that we really can't,

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you know, I mean, US, sometimes USTA will commission a study and then oh, this the results are great,

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right? Well, you commissioned it. Well, now we've got some studies that they actually didn't commission

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that have come back and say, you know, tennis adds potentially seven to ten years of your life.

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It's a great sport for this reason, this reason, this reason. So that's why they changed the mission

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statement. Organization actually is in the middle of debating whether to change ours and my guess is

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we will by the end of the year to align ourselves because southern change theirs to align with,

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you know, just to try to get us all in the same, you know, the same stair step. And again, it's just,

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on the surface is just a statement, it's just words, but it's also very, very important that

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that's a daily fabric or weekly fabric of what we're doing. Are we promoting our health

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benefits enough? Are we inspiring communities to get better everywhere? Are we, you know,

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exposing the virtues of tennis? I mean, I'm biased and I know I hope you guys agree. I mean, to me,

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the best sport ever for a junior player to play is tennis. Now there are other great sports,

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but you know, tennis they learn to problem solve. They learn to

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stand up for themselves sometimes, right? You know, they don't get pushed over.

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They learn how to conflict resolute without swinging at each other. They also learn a moral and

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ethical sport where every time the ball comes on their side of the net, they have a short term moral

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gain. They can just call it out, right? Whereas what they do is isn't really, isn't going to help them

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there. Steven Enix is one in our Hall of Fame said a lot of times when he's thinking about going into

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business with someone he likes to play tennis with them because he figures if they're a good

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person on the tennis court, chances are they're going to act that way in the business world,

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which I've always, that's an interesting comment he made and it's probably spot on. So it's a great sport.

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We have to do a better job of tuning tennis is horn. You know, we've really never had to advocate

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for our sport very much. And now of course with the landscape, but is now we have to advocate and it's not

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something we're great at because we haven't had to do it before. I'm so thankful for people like you

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guys, Sean and Bobby that are out there and you're doing your part to try to advocate for the sport.

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So long winded answer. Yes, we're very likely going to change our mission statement. So it's interesting

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you ask that question. I say, Bobby, you want to walk through a mission statement conversation for a

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few minutes? Oh boy, you know, I'm locked and loaded here. And I agree with you, Dad, I mean,

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I'm sitting here listening to what you're saying about what a great sport it is from the physical

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capacity. What a from a mental capacity. If it's such a fantastic sport, why are we ranked 26 or

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27th recreationally behind darts? I'm actually not to change. I'm actually the biggest American fan

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of professional darts. Okay, so, but that's a good thing. So you're promoted. But I'm not recreation

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there. Trust me, the people are drinking watching. So that's right. Well, they're drinking tennis too.

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If you go and you know, and again, not to the little because you've put everything about

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USDA in Atlanta, there's another elephant in the room where as a tennis instructor, people don't

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ask me if I teach tennis. They ask me, can I do, do we play out there? Oh, sure. So you have to overcome

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out and I always feel like, do we not want to acknowledge that beast in the room? I mean, you know,

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if we all laugh, it's our best friend in our worst enemy because of the way people and the

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reverence to Alta. But if we have such a great product, why does the USDA struggle to promote it?

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And why, you know, is it a great thing in a world where marketing drives everything, whatever

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that definition like be, that we're just realizing that marketing is important?

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Oh, I agree with you. We've been later to the table than we should have been. I'm talking about

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as a sport. I'm not pointing a finger at us or anybody else, but I think as a group, we've,

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you know, again, we just over the years, there really hasn't been a need to advocate and we need to

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do a better job of that. But specific to Alta, you know, coming from my background, I come in here,

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and obviously, you know, that's, you know, as you mentioned, the elephant in the room, and there's this,

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you know, perception of competition between the two organizations, which there is. Let's, you know,

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let's call us beta-spaid, but I actually argue the reason why UST Atlanta has the largest adult

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league of UST in the country by far is because of Alta. There's no doubt. Alta's actually helped,

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and Alta helps promote the sport. Now, you know, the two organizations are set up differently,

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obviously. I have friends in the Alta leadership. When I first got here, it turned out that the new

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president of Alta was my mother-in-law's doubles partner. So I had a personal connection. We're able to

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sit down and try to partner a little bit with things. You know, we've reached out to Alta a few

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times to try to partner with a few things. We're a little bit of success. You know, I just, I hope,

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sometimes, you know, sometimes maybe they don't see the force through the trees a little bit. They're,

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you know, it's an insular organization, very, you know, Atlanta-based. There's a big world out there

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than just Atlanta guys, but they do a great job with that. But yeah, it is a competitive, there is

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some competition between the organizations, but I think, you know, in some ways, you know, Alta's

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could be, Alta's one of our biggest advocates for the sport. I mean, if you go around, this doesn't

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happen anywhere else in the country because, you know, there have been many places where you go around

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and you see courts and neighborhoods and people are playing and the social element of it and,

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you know, it's been a good thing. It's been, it's been a great thing for tennis in Atlanta, but, you know,

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tennis in Atlanta, I think we know the people like to play, they don't necessarily like to watch very

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much. They're that culture. Nothing wrong with it. It's just the way it is. So, but to circle back to

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your original question, you know, we just, we just need to do a better job of advocating what our

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sport can give to communities and societies, a whole, the, most of the kids that play tennis are

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academically stronger. That's why we try to support our NJTLs as much as we can because there's an

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academic element as well as tennis. We got a long way to go, my friend, where, where as you mentioned,

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where, yeah, I mean, whether I'm not sure, you know, whether we're 23, 24, whatever it is, we're not

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number one, we're not in the top five. I can tell you that for sure. So, I think our parks, you know,

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I learned how to play in the park system. I question whether that's as strong as it used to be.

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Unfortunately, we got to do better job with that. So, but, you know, sitting here, it's, you know,

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we're one organization and sometimes we can get overwhelmed like, oh my god, all these things we

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got to do and, and, and we just got to try to, you know, do better every single day to get the message

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of the sport out as best we can. But I'm not, I'm not debating any of your statements. I think you're

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spot on on that. No, and I said, I brought it up because I kind of heard the frustration in your

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voice in just the position that you're in and it goes back to the mission. For better or worse,

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yes, we all look at out and say, God, you could do so much more, but they'll sit there and tell you,

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our mission statement is to run a successful league in Atlanta. Well, they do a darn good job of that.

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If that's their mission statement, they're not going to get out of the park and there's no argument

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there. Yeah, we all look at and say, God, you don't, you're, you're the leader of tennis in this city,

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but this is what they want to do. I get it. So, where does the USDA come in? And that's always been

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my question for the USDA. Is it promoting the game or is it developing players because as being on

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both sides of it, being having been on the business side, put out professional events and being on

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the coaching side, working at facilities, there's a lot of miss messages. We sure. And that makes it

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hard and that of roads confidence in where we're going. Yeah. And like you said, we're at a point

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now where if you look at the sport and you look at the athletes that are playing it, it is a top three

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sport as far as what you have playing the game. And it's disappointing that there's not an American.

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I always felt that we relied on an American great to that's how we grew the game. If we had Jimmy Connors,

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we had John McEnroe, we had Chris Everett, we had Pete Sanfors, we had Andre Agassi,

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we were we were not going to add the park. When we lose those guys, we don't do a great job of selling

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the game. We sell personalities. We don't sell the game. Yeah. Well, a couple things. I don't

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you want to respond. Hang on a second. I want to disagree a little in this space because I think

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those guys at the top were more of a product of the game, not needing to promote itself and being

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so popular. So he and I, we don't completely disagree, but he kind of thinks one begat the other and

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I'm a little bit on the other side and say, if we grow the game, those players emerge as opposed to

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using the famous player of the game, which maybe that's a chicken the egg problem. Yeah. I think both

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could be true. I mean, obviously, I was in Southern California as a player when Pete was growing up

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in Michael and Andre played all all our tournaments. And, you know, in the old days, the USDA

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for better or for worse, kind of forced the players to play locally. There wasn't all this craziness

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going on with all these events. And it was a lot easier for players to get better quickly in certain

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parts of the country because frankly, you don't want to lose to that player, right? It's easy for

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you to go 2,000 miles away and lose in a random level two in which it's all Kansas, then go down the street

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and play your neighbor and lose to them. And, you know, now, they're a good and bad to it, but that,

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you know, our mindset in Southern California is that's what developed champions, right?

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And then we lost that when the optimum schedule got put in. I mean, if you're familiar with that and

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points per round and all this other stuff happens. So, but, you know, from the coaching perspective,

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I mean, I'll put my, I mean, I haven't been directly involved on the competitive side

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for 10 or 11 years now, but I was for a long time. And I'm still, you know, I'm still

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international official and I'm, you know, I'm still involved in it. But I have always felt very

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strongly and Bill Rambo, who is our president of Southern California, always, one of the smartest

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people anyone has ever met, the USDA volunteer used to say that there are four things that make a great

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player. Okay? He says, number one, the player themselves wants to have to be great. Okay? Because if they

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don't want to be great, they're never going to make it. They'll make it to a level and then something

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will happen if they're not playing for the right reasons, it'll eventually show up. A lot of times

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with the kids, it shows up in high school. Sometimes the better players, it shows up the first year of

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college. Hence, while you see all these players going off to school, transferring, you know, whatever.

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Number two, he said they have to come from a stable family environment of a loving environment

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as best they can because this is a hard sport. Things are going to happen and they need to have

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that unconditional love and support at home no matter what happens. They're going to make mistakes.

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Number three, he says at some point in their junior career, they have to get lucky and the right

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coach has to show up at the right time for their development. And a lot of times that's not mom and dad.

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Okay? That's somebody else. And whether it's by luck or by chance, or the parents are smart enough

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to figure that out. And then number four, which Bobby, I think you'll appreciate, he always said

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they need to live in an area that has an association that can provide a structure to develop to show their

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talents. So from the from the federation standpoint, this is just my opinion, right? I'll speak for the

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USDA. I have always been against our significant national coaching programs because to me, the private

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sector does this better. I mean, remember where I used to live, I had landstorped down the street.

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It would tell you how what he thought of you in two seconds. Dennis Riza, all these guys, some of

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the greatest coaches in the country. These guys can coach these players better than I can. Or somebody

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else, our job is to provide a structure. Our job is to provide as best determined structures we can.

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And then at the pro level, provide enough opportunities at the entry level for those kids, for those

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players to be able to play and move up and not have this extensive, you know, you still have to have

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some national coaches because you got teams and international teams. And Martin's done a pretty good

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job with that. But you know, again, that's been a debate with USDA since, you know, when it was

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whenever the 80s or 90s. I mean, I remember when Greg Patton left college and became, you know, our

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national coach for Southern California, everybody thought, you know, this guy's a joke. He doesn't know

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anything. Honestly, Greg and Wayne Bryan were the two people I've seen that got kids excited about

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playing better than anybody. And we need that in the organization. When the USDA kind of went

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at them a little bit, particularly with Wayne, it actually hurt the sport. I'm 10 off a tangent

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here a little bit. But that's my personal opinion. You know, specific to Georgia, we try to have as

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many, you know, camps as we can for our younger kids with different kind of coaches. So that way,

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they maybe get a different perspective and get to meet who they're going to be playing. I mean,

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they're going to be playing against these players for, you know, maybe 40 years, 60 years. I mean,

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I still, I remember I played Southern Cal, junior tennis and one of the guys I ended up playing UCSB,

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one of the guys I played with, he and I, I mean, hate is a strong word, but we had some not very pleasant

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matches in the juniors. And I remember the first day of practice on my dude, it's over. We're teammates

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now. Let's go have a beer. Oh, wait, we're not 21. Yeah, I mean, it's a debate when the new organization,

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but I've always felt the private sector does it better. I'm not just saying that because you're

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sitting here, I honestly believe that they do it better. He'd be a debate. One of the things, Bobby,

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I think is one of the things you always say is about how many social players we have, the goal is

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often just to get the kid in college because we got, we do have this, the structure here in Georgia.

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We do have a lot of strong families in the areas where tennis is really popular. Yeah. What we also have

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is parents using tennis to get maybe a scholarship or get into school, at least put it on the resume,

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but it isn't really a, my kid's going to go be pro kind of scenario. Bobby, what did you say recently?

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Or it was something about why don't we have the most division one athletes coming out of Georgia

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because of the structure here? Well, you would think we have the most players. Therefore, it lends

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itself just from the market perspective. If we have the most players, then we have the most division

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one. Shouldn't we be producing the most numbers again? And I'll go, I agree with you, Darren,

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about what it takes to go to another level. The outliers are always a different examination.

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And though I would argue about your friend about a stable household because I'm not sure Jimmy Connors

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and the Murray's, there's a lot of unstable deagacies. There's a lot of unstable tennis households that

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are completely familiar with. But I do think there's something that I love the California example.

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Like you said, I say the same thing about myself. People ask me, did you pay tournaments? I said,

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no, I didn't have to play tournaments. I could lose 16 times in my club. I didn't need to drive anywhere

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further than my club to play a tournament. You know, at that time when you're a child, you don't

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realize who you're playing against. And when we get older, that makes you feel a little bit better about

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those losses. And I agree. And I know it's financial, but if our goal is really tried to, I'm amazed.

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We were down at the event last night and we're watching television. They had the tennis channel on

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because it's raining. And we're watching all the tournaments that are being played around the world

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on this particular day. From I'd be six, seven, we have one basketball league. We have one football league.

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Tennis just spreads itself out. I mean, there was an, a tournament in check. I've been progged.

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It looked like they were playing in a high school court. Yeah, you know, you had two rows of

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fans watching, which is great. But I don't think that's helped. I don't know. Like you said, that's

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to me is we're not helping tennis. We should be doing it more together, providing more opportunities

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for the folks, the kids, where they feel like there's a path. I mean, you have 1500 people playing

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football that all make money. We don't have, we barely have a hundred tennis players that make money

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to sustain a career. Well, I mean, in the ATP, I mean, there's some things out there now that

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come through are going to be shocking. But they're, I think they're understanding that whether,

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you know, because if you do make top 100, you can basically, you know, catch for our first round

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losses in the slams and make it because you're getting six figures. That's kind of been always

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the threshold. But, you know, listen, tennis changed when it became an Olympic sport. That was the

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one decision that changed the sport forever because what it did was it basically gave an incentive

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to all these nations across the world, the ability to fund training programs for their young players

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to try to potentially become an Olympic champion. And a lot of the countries actually American coaches

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are the ones that developed their programs for them because I had four or five friends in the 90s

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spend a considerable amount of time in China and Serbia developing their program because the

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government's like, well, it's an Olympic sport now. We got to, we got to get, you know, we got to

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get these things. Now, you know, keep in mind, you mentioned all these events this week. There's

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Kitzbjul, Prague and Umag, you know, the federations are all funding all that basically. I would,

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I would guess I don't have it for a fact. But my guess is, is that the federation is probably

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writing the checks for all those events to keep to keep them going. And that's the difference between

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us and a lot of the other nations. I mean, most of the countries out there that are serious about

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playing tennis, you know, I hate to say it, they're not really that interested in community tennis.

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Right. They don't care. They figure somebody else is going to do that. Our job is to all of our

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resources go to player development and high-levelite juniors and professional tennis and try to

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get our players as quickly as we can up to that. Now, you know, has it worked for them? Maybe

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because I don't know the, you know, you don't see the other side of that, the casualty of whether

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or not the sport is thriving in there. I mean, I think I would say in Serbia, it certainly is because

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of Novak. Right. So, you know, that, that model, I think what you are arguing is the players

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grow the game. That, that certainly probably has worked in, in, in Serbia. Maybe some of the other

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countries, not so much, but it's just a different mindset, you know, and obviously in Europe, it's

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much easier to travel and, you know, country to country and it's, and it's easier. It's, you know,

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it's not an excuse. It's just the way it is. So, it's just kind of a culture of our country. So,

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I don't have, and we don't propose to have the answers. What all we are asking for is like you said,

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let's get it, come up with a statement saying, this is what we're going to be, what we're going to

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be, or we're going to try to be, stick to it and then let other entities be comfortable taking the

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ball and run with it. I don't care. Again, whatever everybody decides, but let's make a decision. Let's

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stick to it and then let's continue to let everybody else contribute and help out without feeling like,

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all right, am I overstepping my bounds? Is this the, because to me, there's a, there's a huge

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difference between growing the game and developing players. Like you said, developing, big, big

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difference. I want, you know, 10 players, like you said, fame was unbelievably successful in the 90s

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and the early 2000s. They had a lot of people that you'd see semi-finals plus. How many people were

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playing in Spain? We don't know that. And then they slipped for a while and now they're back. You

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know, and the Spanish Federation had a, had a philosophy where they did not feel any of, they did,

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if you watched all their players, never played the junior grand slams of the high level IT

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of juniors. That was their philosophy. We're going to, we're going to flood our country with

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pro-circuit, 15 and 25 K events. That's where they're going to learn to develop. And for a while,

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it was working for them, all of a sudden, a different. Last year, the US Open Boys champion was from Spain

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for the first time in, Martin Landeluse, first time in quite many years, because they're like, you know,

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what? That isn't working. We got to pivot. There's a, there's a development model here. So I've always

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felt very strongly from a, if you're specifically talking about developing players, you know, we need more

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low-level professional events in this country. And we started flooding the market for a long time.

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And as a result, I think, you know, we started getting a lot more players in the top 200 and 100

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that we never used to. Now, have we had anybody break through yet? No, and that's, you know, on, you

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know, that's something that frustrates all of us. All three of us on this column sure frustrated by it.

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But then, then the financial side of it hits. It's like, you know, at some point, these events

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are costly. And, you know, that if you, you know, it's all a debate, do all of it. Who does it? Who does it?

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You know, the USTA's perspective now, this year is like, we got to support our bigger events more.

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That's where the points are. We got to get these kids. We got to get these guys from 100 to 200 into

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the top 100 as quickly as we can. Well, you can't do that by spending all your budget money by

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funding a whole bunch of 15Ks. Right. So that's why they're helping the challenge level. And the 15Ks

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are kind of on their own. That's why this year, you saw a whole bunch of them disappear around the country.

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Now, they've started to pick back up again. But we, I mean, you know, we can talk about this all day. It's

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just a different philosophy. They'll know right wrong. I believe what I believe, I believe that it's

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that the player will learn what it's like to be a trooper, a professional on the pro circuit.

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That's what I believe based on all my experience. I'm not saying I'm right. Some other people

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believe, believe differently, you know, and think things change. You know, when the Olympics came in,

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and then when the ITF for the junior grand slam decided to get rid of country quotas and all the

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players all of a sudden how to get down their own, well, guess what? If you're a junior and you want to

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get into the US open on your own, you're probably never going to play US T junior event ever again.

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Because you got to go chase points. You know, it used to be that the US, the ITF would give the US

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like 10 spots. And the US would come up with a procedure how they would come up with the 10 now.

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That went away, you know, 10, 15 years ago. And so that player behavior changed.

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And not for the better, in my opinion. Yeah. Well, I completely agree with you as far as

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historically the way to grow the, you know, if you wanted that player, they had to learn how to compete.

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The only way they're going to learn how to compete is to play at the highest level. I'm interested

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to see 10 years from now, this conversation with now with with the colleges and the N I L money.

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That's that's a whole nother variable that's getting thrown into this equation that, yeah, we don't

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even know yet. We're seeing it have it in the sports that are seemingly organized with basketball

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and football. What is it going to do to tennis? I mean, you could schools could literally just decide,

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hey, we're going to be a tennis powerhouse. This is going to be our gig. We're going to put our money

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into this and you know, change the landscape completely. So there's even more that's going on.

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That's going to change the way this is this whole works out. Hey, if N I L exists to when I play it,

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I'm confident I would have gotten like 20 bucks and a couple pizzas. It's the all. Mama's pizza handshake.

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Exactly. Yeah, but no, the whole college landscape's changing. You know, now a lot of the players,

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you know, Bobby, your member years ago was taboo to go to college if you dare want to play professional

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tennis. And that's what the USDA was saying, not saying, but their actions were showing that. Now,

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you'd be stupid not to go play. I agree. You got to hold your mouth. You got to go. You should

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go to the men's side. There's no way you're going to be ready at 18. I mean, such an outward.

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And again, and again, and I appreciate everything you're saying. Why doesn't somebody come out and say,

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rather just put it all in the coach. Look, as a guys, as a 17, 18 year old boy,

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you're that you're a boy still. You're going to need a couple years physicality to get to that level.

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So, hey, either be prepared and be prepared to lose or like you said, college should be a viable option.

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Let yourself grow up, then put your time into it. And I think that to me is the only thing that I ask

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of when we talk about these things is that there seems to me is a leadership vacuum in tennis.

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And that's unfortunate at a point where the sport is so good. You know, it shouldn't be

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three guys in, you know, talking about it, hitting our head against the wall. This is something that

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we should be able to just say, look what just happened at Wimbledon. Look what's going to happen

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in French. I mean, we play on different surfaces, different times of the year. You have temperature.

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You have, I mean, it's unbelievable what these guys do. And it's just unfortunate. It seems that

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these, they don't get enough credit and and sell the game that way too. Look, why is pickleball taking off?

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It's easier. It's a lot easier. You don't have to be a skilled. Well, that's not debated.

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I mean, it's not a big knowledge. We should use pickleballs and entry to tennis. Look, you enjoy pickleball.

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You got fairly proficient on it. I have the sport that's even going to challenge you more.

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Yeah, rather than look at as a rival, they could hurt the game.

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Yeah. And there's been a lot of mixed messaging in our own organization about how we,

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you know, treat pickleball. I'm 10 more on your side. I mean, my only issue with the pickleball folks

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sometimes is sometimes their facts aren't quite spot on in terms of, but you know what they've done,

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a really good job of, I mean, the one thing we can learn from the pickleball group is boy,

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they're great advocates. Yeah. They do a great job. And so can we learn from them a little bit? And

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can we transition some of those people? But you know, a lot of them don't really want to because I

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hate to say it off the record. They don't really want to move very much. Right? So maybe there's a

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maybe there's a red ball, adult red ball potential where you're actually hitting a tennis ball.

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The sports can coexist, right? It's not, you know, plus the pickleball folks are starting to get upset

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because all the best tennis players are coming over to pickleball and kicking their, you know, what's,

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right? Yes. Page of the game. I'm not racing was telling me that the director of tennis and

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Anselies like man, the people, people aren't fans of theirs because they just go into pickleball

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and destroy everybody. I watched a jack sock highlight on the pickleball court. He crushed a

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forehand on one point. Next point, he crushed a forehand, came in crushed a volley and did the

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point to start. So there's no more dinking and dinking in and pickleball with these guys. Donnell

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Young and jack sock are not going to dinking doing too much. They're going to grip and rip. And it's

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going to change the whole perspective of the game. So yeah, they're about to go through a little bit

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of a chance to which will be interesting. But we're not rivals. Yeah, we're not. I mean,

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they've got they've got a ways to go that, you know, somebody will take them on. Someone will

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go, you know, I can do this better than you can. And you know, it's competitions like some of the USDA

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and some of the other leagues and stuff. I mean, it's ultimately though it's people playing, right? I

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mean, that's what we have to, you know, if we didn't care who got the credit, it's amazing. We'll

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be in a week and accomplish, right? So, you know, ultimately, it's people on the court enjoying the sport.

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Okay? Yes. Amen. We can. The problem is is when our

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parent organization puts stipulations on how things have to be and we have to kind of fit into their box

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and not criticizing because I mean, that's just that's just life. I mean, everybody has everybody has a

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boss. I mean, Bob, you have one, Sean. Yes. You have one. I mean, you know, for me, it's not just my

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wife, it's them. So, you know, ultimately, you can't just quote, do whatever you want. But you

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would hope that, you know, you'd get some flexibility to really promote the sport rather than, you know,

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fit into our own little box here. And, you know, we could we could spend hours talking about that. But that

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that's always kind of been our, you know, last couple of years, our goal is, you know, yes, our CTAs

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are important, but you know, other people are out there delivering tennis as well. What have we done

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for those people? For example, like the teaching professionals in the, you know, in the in the Metro

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and Lanare, we have some great fantastic and we have we have such a great organization with GPTA.

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So we were really, really lucky to, you know, be a part of keeping them alive when they were struggling

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a little bit and they're flourishing now and it's a it's a great thing, you know, it's a great thing

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for for our community to have that doesn't happen everywhere. That is true. And we're we're

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thankfully for your support of the GPTA. We've been working with them a lot over the last couple

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of years and they're doing good things here and we we support all the things that they don't have

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the band with the handle. You talk about doing which makes me want to ask you our King of Tennis

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question before we run out of time. Sure. Obviously, you're over here. Bobby. Where am I? You know,

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it's for Darin before I hit him with King of Tennis. No, Darin, I appreciate and I appreciate your

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honesty, sir. Yeah, let's let's let's grab a lunch some time and keep the conversation going.

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Absolutely. Love to. Yeah. Nice shades too, by the way. I have old age band two thousand.

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They look great. You look messed up for the podcast. It holds it hides the crow's feet around the

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eyes too. You know, being the oldest man in the room, I got to hide it a little bit. I'm getting there.

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So we have what I always call my favorite question and we ask at the end, if you were King of Tennis,

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whether it's USDA, the world, professional, social, at any level, if you were King of Tennis for

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however long it takes, is there anything you would do or change?

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We're a good question. I really think it's time for a commissioner.

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Ooh, I mean, I know there was. I know I like this man. I know I like that.

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I'm not just saying that just to, you know, but I knew there were rumors, you know, years ago that

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Mackinar was going to do it. And, you know, he certainly would be an interesting person.

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You know, there are so many entities right now in tennis. There's no way everyone's going to be on

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the same page on everything. And, you know, it would be nice to have a respected figure that the public,

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that the person walking on the street here and like in Thurbera Racing, you know, everybody know,

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everybody knew Wayne Lucas. I might not know what the sport is, but they know who that is. It would

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be the same in tennis of anyone. Pick up all, you know, it would be someone that every

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person in this country would at least have some name recognition to give the sport some more stature

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amongst, you know, the general public. That would be my, I'm not, you know, I mean, John obviously

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would make some sense because he's done a lot for the sport. I mean, you know, listen, everybody has

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skeletons. I do, everybody does. He's gotten as well. But I would love to, I would love to see that. And,

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and, you know, and then the organization's truly not just saying it truly wanting to, you know,

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they can stay autonomous, but they're going to have to agree on certain things for the good of the

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sport. And I think that's where the commissioner could come help and try to get, you know, they're not

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able to move a mountain, but at least, you know, start moving the hill and flatten the hill out because,

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you know, it's a climb, right? I mean, we're climbing. And unfortunately, our force is against us. So,

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so yeah, there's a lot of other things, but I think that'd be the first thing. I think it's, I think

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it's time in the, in the media age that we're in now, someone that is recognizable with experience

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there, experience with marketing the sport. I mean, you mentioned Darts. I mean, Barry Hurne,

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the guy, the guy was absolutely amazing how he turned Darts into the second biggest spectator sport in

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Europe in two years. Okay. And he just, you know, and he just didn't do that overnight. He, he had a

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plan and a strategy. We need somebody like that in tennis that can sell the sport, tell the stories of

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the players, make these players at the top of the game, you know, recognizable to, you know, you know,

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ESPN types, those types of folks. So I think, I think it's time, but certainly not me or, or, you know,

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wouldn't be me, of course, but somebody's, I don't know, I can't know or somebody. Well, I don't know

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why it wouldn't be you. Well, but this is one, and this is one argument I would have with tennis right

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away. And we're all guilty of it. I'm fairly confident, David Stern never played basketball.

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The strong fairly confident Gary Betman never played hockey. I don't understand why we think these,

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like you said, the majority of the problems we have in the sport of business decisions. Yeah.

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It's okay to find a businessman who has an affinity for tennis and has an understanding of the game.

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Just because we always laugh about even at the lowest levels just because you're a good head pro,

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doesn't mean you're a good director. It's two different job skills attached. Your top sales guy

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should not necessarily become your sales manager because there's two different skills that are

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involved in reaching those levels. And I agree with you. I think tennis defaults too quickly to,

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we need a new commitment. Oh, what was the last head of Wilson doing? Let's go higher him. Right.

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You know, I'd be interested as I said, I want to go with higher the guy from NASCAR who markets only

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less earns or the guy from WWE who markets something where we all know there's a pre-decided ending to it.

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But yet people come in and are entertained by it. I think we limit ourselves if we look to the

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usual suspects. I said, David Stern probably arguably the greatest commissioner grew a sport.

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You hear this great today with all the podcasts. You hear all the behind-the-scenes stories and how

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the players were shocked that he would bring him into the office in Yellowdum. And big, grown,

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egotistical men would sit there and say, and listen because he put so much money in their pocket

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if there was no argument. Right. That's true. I mean, Mark Ein is someone I know that has tremendous

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business acumen that loves tennis. That'd be a potential person or somebody like a Mark Cuban.

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We could figure out a Mark Cuban to get interest in tennis. So it doesn't have to be a player.

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I'm looking for somebody that either exactly what you just said has that background or if not,

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someone that every single person on the street has heard. Well, there you have it. We want to thank

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reGeovinate.com for use of the studio and be sure to hit that follow button. For more tennis-related

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