DESCRIPTION:

In the latest episode in our series celebrating a decade of business at Within People, Jeff Melnyk reconnects with Meriem Bouamrane, an environmental economist and Senior Advisor for Nature-Based Solutions Partnerships at UNESCO. Together, they discuss her transformative work with UNESCO's Man and Biosphere Program and her personal journey as a leader in sustainability. From their shared experiences in the field to stories of resilience, connection, and shared purpose, Meriem shares powerful insights on vulnerability, the importance of community, and the value of leading with authenticity. Tune in to learn about the power of storytelling in environmental work, the evolution of sustainability, and Meriem's hopes for the next generation of leaders.

SHOW NOTES:

Fostering Global Sustainability Through Storytelling and Leadership

In this podcast episode, host Jeff interviews Meriam, an expert in environmental economics and a long-time advocate for the UNESCO Man and Biosphere Program (MAB). They discuss their initial meeting in Sweden, collaborations around the world, and the transformational impact of the MAB program on promoting sustainable development. Meriam shares her career journey, starting from her field research in agroforestry in Indonesia, to her significant contributions within UNESCO. She emphasizes the importance of storytelling and communication in engaging stakeholders and highlights the evolving awareness and actions towards sustainability. The conversation also explores our 8 Essential qualities for 21 century leadership, the significance of vulnerability and authenticity, and the shift in global consciousness regarding environmental issues. Meriam reflects on her future aspirations, focusing on personal growth and continuing her commitment to sustainability through local actions like permaculture.

KEYWORDS:

UNESCO, Man and Biosphere Program, sustainability leadership, biodiversity, environmental advocacy, ecosystem preservation, global community, storytelling, purpose-driven leadership, human connection, cross-cultural collaboration, hope, resilience, vulnerability, authenticity, empowerment, sustainability evolution, climate action, positive impact, legacy, shared purpose

WHAT TO EXPECT

• Insights on how vulnerability and authenticity shape impactful leadership
• The evolution of the UNESCO Man and Biosphere Program and its role in global sustainability
• How storytelling bridges scientific data with public engagement to drive environmental change
• Shifting narratives in sustainability to bring a broader audience into the conversation
• Leadership lessons on staying hopeful and resilient amid challenges
• Meriem’s reflections on cultivating purpose-driven connections within communities worldwide
• Inspiring future leaders to make positive contributions to the planet through shared values

TAKEAWAYS

• Vulnerability as Strength: Meriem emphasizes that showing vulnerability as a leader can build trust, foster connection, and encourage a culture of openness and authenticity.
• Storytelling as a Tool for Change: Meriem and Jeff reflect on the importance of translating scientific knowledge into relatable stories that engage and empower communities to take action on biodiversity and sustainability.
• Sustainability’s Expanding Reach: Over her career, Meriem has seen sustainability discussions move from scientists and activists to include business leaders, finance professionals, and a global audience—creating a wider commitment to environmental action.
• Creating Global Connection through Shared Values: The Man and Biosphere Program unites diverse ecosystems and cultures under a shared purpose of protecting the planet, showing that common values can bridge differences and foster collaboration.
• Hope and Positivity as Drivers of Action: Rather than focusing solely on the urgency of environmental crises, Meriem advocates for an approach that highlights positive solutions and models for change, inspiring a hopeful outlook.
• Embracing a Non-Hierarchical Leadership Approach: By stepping away from conventional power dynamics, Meriem has fostered a collaborative and respectful atmosphere, empowering communities to share their knowledge and experiences freely.
• A Vision for Lasting Change: Meriem believes that true leadership comes from empowering individuals to make choices that align with their values, contributing to a legacy of kindness, respect, and care for each other and the earth.

Meriem Bouamrane Bio:

Meriem Bouamrane is an environmental economist and Senior Advisor for Nature-Based Solutions Partnerships at UNESCO, where she focuses on developing cross-sectoral partnerships to advance climate action and biodiversity conservation. She manages relationships with key partners, including LVMH. Previously, she served as Chief of Section for research and policy on biodiversity within UNESCO's Division of Ecological and Earth Sciences, as part of the MAB Programme, where she worked since 2001. She also coordinated the EuroMAB Network, the oldest and largest network in the World Network of Biosphere Reserves, and led research and training programs on biodiversity access and use, participatory approaches, and collaboration, using biosphere reserves as research and demonstration sites. She has organized numerous workshops applying various participatory techniques and tools and was involved in research programs focused on socio-ecological system resilience. She served as UNESCO's focal point for IPBES and biodiversity and was a member of the International Association for the Study of the Commons (IASC).

Hey, everyone.

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Thank you for taking the

time to listen today.

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I'm Jeff from within people, a partnership

working around the world, helping people

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to find purpose and grow their business.

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10 years ago, we had a vision

of a blueprint for 21st century

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organizations where people love to,

they are and what they do and where

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purpose and values were the foundation

to growing an amazing company.

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We're 10 year anniversary.

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There've been a lot of

learnings along the way.

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And this special edition of our

podcast series invites the leaders

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who've been on our journey to

share their stories with the hope

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that all of us can learn together.

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In this episode, I am so pleased to be

speaking with Miriam Bouamran from UNESCO.

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You may be more familiar with UNESCO

World Heritage Sites, but did you know

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there's another incredible UNESCO program

called the Network of Biosphere Reserves?

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These are places around the world where

sustainable development is in action with

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people living in harmony with nature.

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In fact, 275 million people live

in biosphere reserves worldwide.

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You might be in one right

now and not even know it.

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Miriam has been leading change within

the UNESCO network, bringing the network

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closer together through purpose and shared

values, helping Biosphere Reserves to

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tell a more powerful story so that they

can create greater impact around climate

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change, resilience, and biodiversity loss.

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We've worked with Miriam and the

UNESCO team for over a decade.

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She is an incredible leader who's

faced the tough challenges of bringing

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people together to change the world.

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And I hope her story

can inspire you today.

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Jeff Melnyk: Miriam, it has been at

least 15 years that we've known each

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other I think we first met in Sweden.

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at a Euromap.

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Miriem: was it the first time

I met Laurie in Brussels?

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Jeff Melnyk: Yes.

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Miriem: the first time

I met you was in Sweden.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yes, and we arrived very

late to host a conference with you.

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Don't bring

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Miriem: the food.

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Jeff Melnyk: And there was no food.

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And the only place to eat in this remote

tiny town in Sweden was McDonald's.

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Which I still can't believe to

this day was the place in Sweden

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that, we go travel all this way to

Sweden, have a wonderful time, and

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McDonald's was what was offered to us.

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However, that started our relationship of

traveling all around the world to spread

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the message of the purpose and values

of the UNESCO Man and Biosphere Program

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and the importance of storytelling and

engaging All stakeholders around change.

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So I'm really excited to

have you on the podcast.

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I've wanted you on the

podcast for a very long time.

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You're in Paris.

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Our time zones are difficult and I

barely get to speak to you anymore.

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So this is a real privilege.

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thank you for having us today.

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How did you get started in your career?

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Take us back, maybe

beyond your UNESCO time.

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Miriem: I started doing research.

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I was doing environmental

economics at the university.

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I had the chance to meet through

UNESCO, some researchers working

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in Indonesia, in Bogor, in Western

Java, they were doing amazing field

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work on agroforestry in Sumatra.

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I remember that Malcolm Hadley, my

mentor, working on tropical biology

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in UNESCO in the Man on the Biosphere

program, took me to a conference where I

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met researchers looking for my profile.

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to help them do some economic

evaluation on agroforestry.

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And the idea was to show that,

the mainstream was like to do

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plantation monoculture versus

what the farmers were doing.

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these researchers were trying to

show that farmers were very rational,

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despite what people were thinking.

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And so, thanks to UNESCO in a way,

thanks to Malcolm Hadley that I would

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like to pay tribute to also today.

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I managed to get a grant and to

travel all the way to Indonesia

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and to do field work in Sumatra.

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And that was an amazing experience,

including an earthquake that shook

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my foundation and many other things,

but it was, this is how I really

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started and always engaged in, I would

say, nature and always interested

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to contribute or understand.

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the relationship between

us humans and nature.

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And my first, passion, and still now,

is trees and agroforestry and forest.

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So that's how I started.

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Jeff Melnyk: how did you get to

the Man in Biosphere program?

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Miriem: I applied, I think,

for a internship during summer.

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Somebody, again, in my research

circle, said, this is a

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program that is closer to you.

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It's very holistic.

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And also there was somebody

who was more social scientist.

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And since I was an economist, many of

the people at the time working in the

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MAP program were more ecologist or

botanist, or so he said, but there is

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somebody who was doing anthropology.

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So maybe, you know, it's closer to

your fields and you can work together.

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So I met this anthropologist and

he was working on small islands.

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I worked with him and

then gradually stayed.

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I did my PhD field work in Indonesia, but

I was still connected a bit with them.

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And I was having some connection

with the Jakarta office at the time.

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And then I applied for a

job for young professional.

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And I got to a post in Dakar in

Senegal, this is where I first

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officially started to work for the

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Jeff Melnyk: And for the listeners

who aren't familiar with the program,

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the Man in Biosphere program is about

biosphere reserves all around the world.

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I think we're up to 760 now?

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Is that at last count?

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how many were at that time?

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Was there that many designated

sites or have we seen that change

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over the last couple of decades?

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Miriem: So when I started, the first

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when I officially joined, in 1992, I

can't say accurately how many were there.

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we can check, but maybe 200,

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Jeff Melnyk: right.

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Miriem: And so now every year, we

received between 20 to 40 applications.

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And usually half of them get through.

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especially the recent year, since the

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process and the criteria over the years.

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Yeah.

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So that's basically between

20 and 40 application a year.

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─

when

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Jeff Melnyk: we started working together,

the challenge was that nobody really knew

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how to talk about the Biosphere Reserves.

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They didn't know how to express the

values of the Biosphere Reserves.

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these are places that hold a

common purpose and common values.

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Why was that so important for

you to write that down and get

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that crystallized for folks.

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Miriem: Yes, that's true.

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And Jeff, I was thinking

recently, Catherine Sibian

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that you've met has retired.

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she wrote to me an email and said,

one thing that I remember that was

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really for me a breakthrough, and she

was even before me in the MAP program.

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Of course.

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She said, was the communication

and the workshop we did together.

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She said, that was a breakthrough,

what we have done together with you

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and with Ian and Jeff and Laurie.

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she wrote to me saying, I'm retiring now.

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I've been serving the MAP program

for, more than 40 years she remembers

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that because for her, it was really

important this program is amazing.

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It's a hidden jewel.

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It's a treasure.

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And for me, still contains all the

solutions or what people are looking for.

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It's holistic, it's interdisciplinary.

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It's a place where people are

living together in different

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ecosystems all around the world.

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there is a commitment and engagement to

live in harmony with nature and experiment

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solutions based on fact, on science.

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On local knowledge, but there was a

gap between how people were coming

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from a scientific background versus

sharing their emotions passion and their

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commitment in words that immediately,

wherever you go, even if you don't speak

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the language, people would understand

why you're so passionate about that.

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And I think that Jeff, you

remember with Lori when we went in

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Peru, in the Congress, sometimes

people don't know each other.

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They don't speak the same languages.

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Even sometimes they were new,

but immediately they were like

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in a part of community or family.

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And they were speaking the

same language because they

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share this passion for nature.

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and trying to be human that are doing

something positive in their surrounding.

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And I always thought that we were

very close to tell this amazing story,

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that we needed help and assistance.

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In communicating about our

values, in communicating about

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our purpose, in communicating

about why we were doing that.

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And I remember Jeff, that this is

exactly what you brought to us,

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because sometimes we do things, we

don't even question why we do it.

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And this is what you brought.

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I remember those workshop of what,

and the why, and the values, and the

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fact that you helped us to Put on

the table, the values that were all

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uniting us despite our diversity or

despite our short term conflicts or

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divergences, we had something in common.

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And this is for me, the

beauty of working in UNESCO.

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And this is the beauty of this program,

very diverse people, very diverse

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ecosystems, very diverse interest

even, but this program is always

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bringing the best out of people.

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and what they have in common.

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And this time our planet, we

forget this, what we have in

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common and why we are here.

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I think this is the key message

of this program that survived

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more than 50 years is that what

is most important is what unite us

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versus what is making us separate.

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And if we forget this, we

are not getting anywhere.

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We are only getting Separated and

in war, separation, war and divide.

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And that's why I think this program

has always been so close to my heart.

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And why this program has attracted so

many quality people all around the world.

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Jeff Melnyk: It really is the

most diverse network, isn't it?

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It is in pretty much every country

in the world operating, In what is

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truly sustainable development from

a place where it's the economy,

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nature and people thriving together

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I mean, it's not a hierarchical network.

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People are doing their own thing.

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They have their own governance models.

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They have to report to the

standards that they have.

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That's needed for the Biosphere

Reserve, but I think you're right.

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Without that common sense of

purpose and values, it could feel

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like they're off on their own.

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And I think we brought that together.

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But then we also saw that once

we had that, we thought, they'll

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be able to tell this story of who

they are and what we learned is

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they needed some help, didn't they?

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The scientists needed

a little bit of help.

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On how to tell that story

in an inspiring way.

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And I think once we'd done the tour of

the continents taking the purpose and

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values out, it was to build the capacity

of the network to tell the story.

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And that's where I thought we

had some really fun experiences

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getting people to get creative.

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Miriem: Yes, that's one

of my best souvenirs.

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And I'm quite proud

about what we have done.

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Because, there is a real need, for

people to be understood and to share

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why they do something and when they

need help, either, you know, financial

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help, which is often the cases in the

sites, or they want support from the

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government the private sector or other

stakeholders that, don't think What

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they do or biodiversity is so important.

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They need to be able to share why

they do things and why it's also

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important for the other people and why

it's better if they do it together.

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And I think this communication

that we have done together

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was not only helping people.

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For me, the first step, the first

lesson was with your help and your

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expertise, We were able to vandalize

them to say, what you're doing is so

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important and it has so much value because

many of them undervalue themselves.

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Many of them think that what they're

doing is not really important because.

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the crisis and the challenges are so big.

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So am I really helping in

my little biosphere or in my

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little corner or my activity?

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So I think that one thing we did

with the different workshops and your

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work was to say, yes, you have value.

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What you do is very important.

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they were not feeling isolated.

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there is this amazing network, and we

highlighted what they had in common so

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they could relate, you know, even I live

in Botswana, but I can relate to what is

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happening in Canada because I know there's

other people like me joining UNESCO and

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trying to do sustainable development.

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there is a skill.

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To tell the story and to inspire people.

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this inspiration was sometimes missing, we

do have passionate people in this network.

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you remember, Jeff, when we were

traveling, those people are so passionate.

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That they made us stand outside in the

rain telling us about all the different

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species of butterfly while we were

soaking wet and he had so many visits

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in the biosphere reserves where people

are so passionate about what they do.

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they can talk for hours, but this is not

telling the story and engaging the other

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person to really want to listen and to

learn more and to be part of your story.

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I think this is the difference

between, you remember to say lots

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of data and facts because there's a

lot of scientific background versus.

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Sharing my personal story why

I'm unique and why I do that

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because I am a unique person.

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Jeff Melnyk: putting people in the

nature story has always been a difficulty

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from a science perspective, there's a

lot of exciting things to talk about.

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these folks are not David Attenborough

to be able to spin the yarn in

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that way often they start with.

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how many kilometers square the biosphere

reserve is and count the species

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instead of here's why this place exists.

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This is why this place is special.

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And this is why you care about it.

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And this is why I'm here.

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for many of them to see themselves

and the humans around them

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in connection with nature.

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I think that had.

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been for me a breakthrough working in

sustainability for so long to be able to

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work with the real people on the ground

to get them to share their story about

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why they were doing it because they

really are change makers they're really

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doing the work and when you know this to

be true it kind of makes you feel better

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about the challenges in the world if i

just read the paper every day i think

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the crisis is like, there's no way we're

going to get around this, but having met

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the people on the ground doing amazing

little things, it's, it's remarkable.

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do you think sustainability has changed

quite a bit in your career, Miriam?

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Have you seen a shift in either

the actions or the consciousness

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around people with sustainability?

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Miriem: Definitely, what is really,

for me, a source of hope is that when I

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started, we were talking to each other

and we were talking to a few, scientists

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or researchers that were absolutely

convinced that the future was how we were

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treating nature and each other and that

there were solutions, that there were good

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practices like the biosphere reserves and

all the work at UNESCO the key was the

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engagement of the people and the choices

they were going to be able to make.

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And the breakthrough for me is over

the years since when I started in

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this field and now is to see the

ownership of those issues by a

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wider and wider audience and sector.

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So starting from scientists.

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My field, talking to each other on

biodiversity and being in a bubble,

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feeling isolated to opening to other

disciplines in the science community,

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then opening to practitioners

and now opening to business.

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to private sector, to finance,

to people that when I started,

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I had no contact with.

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even they were seen as the bad

guys, we are in a polarized world.

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And now sustainability is the

debate on what we want to achieve,

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to stop the loss of biodiversity.

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And.

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the effects of climate change,

everybody is at least, aware of it.

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Even if not enough

people are acting on it.

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Although there are some, people who don't

care, or don't want to change anything.

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The change of consciousness and

the awareness Has completely

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changed from when I started first.

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So that's for me, very positive.

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Even if we are in a kind of

urgency and some people, including

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scientists, are really tired to.

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Repeat and repeat the same recommendation

and alert, you know, like Cassandra that

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you are saying, Hey, if you continue like

that, this is what's going to happen.

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And nobody cares about

what Cassandra said.

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She's right, but she's doomed

because she's right before everybody.

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And it's never good to be

right before too many people.

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The difference is that people

can feel it in their daily life

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and we can feel it in our body.

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We can feel it with the climate change

the weather and dramatic events.

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this is the sad news about the

evolution of sustainability.

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it's sad that humans don't change.

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until there is a real drama happening.

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we don't learn from the past or

from each other because some people

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are facing droughts, some people

are facing fires, some people

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are facing a difficult situation.

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We should not wait that there is a

fire in Paris or a flood to say, ah,

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this could happen because of that.

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this is the sad side of it.

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Awareness, rising awareness.

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But why is it so difficult to act for

this needed change and transformation?

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This is the key why humans

are so reluctant to change.

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Jeff Melnyk: What have

you learned about that?

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The urgency message wasn't

working 10, 20 years ago, was it?

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And now we're in a place where

you can feel the urgency.

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What have you learned from that?

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Miriem: Is really interesting because

this is something we've done with you.

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my experience, even in my personal life

in my relationship with my friends or

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at work is that if you make people feel

guilty, if you blame people, even as a

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child or colleague you don't feel good

about yourself and you are less open to

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lesson or to act Unless you are forced to,

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And you're forced because you are in

a system of hierarchy or even worse.

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People, in my experience and

myself and my colleagues and my

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relatives, you want to have joy.

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You want to have fun.

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You want to have pleasure.

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I think that the narrative about

diversity loss or the climate was at

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a point, where it was too negative.

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So people felt powerless, felt like

maybe it's so big, it's so complex,

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it's too late, what can I do?

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And even if they really were

doing something, if they were

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recycling or, taking care

about the seasons for the food.

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or less traveling They were feeling

that it was useless or that, if they

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do that and somebody else is continuing

to do all extraction what's the point?

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So what we want with you, and I think

that also the spirit of the mob and

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UNESCO is to lift up, to elevate, to

inspire by the positive, to have models,

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And examples that this is possible, and

this is positive, and this is something

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that is going to make you happier.

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It's something that is going

to make you feel prouder.

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It's something that is going

to make you a better human.

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Not that you are bad, but

that you're going to grow.

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You're going to thrive.

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And I think this is what we've tried

to do together, is to show all these

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positive solutions that were existing

in the biosphere, all these humans that

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had difficulties and were not perfect.

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By being part of this movement, by

being part of this biosphere reserves,

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by being part of this community, they

were feeling better, they were acting

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better, and they were together better.

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and I think this is still, for me, today,

the key message that UNESCO and, and

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that our different programs, including

the MAD program, It's, it's sharing is

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that in this world that we can see where

we polarize and if you're not with me,

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you're against me, it's black and white.

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It's not like reality is black and white.

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I am not black or white.

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I am a human person with, positive

aspects and sometimes negative

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thoughts I am angry or sad or whatever.

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But.

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The sadness or the angriness,

or it's not defining who I am.

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And so I think that every little gesture

counts and we can see that we are

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connected together as human species.

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What is happening in those

world countries is affecting us.

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Even if physically I'm safe now

in Paris, it's affecting me to

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be part of a planet where you see

so much suffering and violence.

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It's affecting me as a person working

in UNESCO, working for peace, and it's

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affecting me because I think there

are solutions if we work together

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and if we change the narrative and

remember what we have in common.

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Jeff Melnyk: It's easy for folks to feel

like there isn't any hope, When they have

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all of that negativity coming towards

them, what we did with the MAB was two

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values the positivity value and model

solutions, the demonstrating action value.

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to show that things can happen,

we can change things, gives the

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element of hope, doesn't it?

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It's not a message of positivity

just for the sake of it.

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It's because we can do this.

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We can get there.

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Do you think your leadership

perspective has shifted over the years?

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Because I see you as a leader

who really drives action through

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inspiration and positivity,

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Sometimes when things are not great and

you're not happy and you are very in

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check with your emotions, your feelings,

but you're still driving your leadership

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forward through inspiration and hope.

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Miriem: I think that leadership for

me is something that I discovered with

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feedback or when you see a change in,

the persons you're working with or

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in the community you're working with.

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So it's really important as a

leader to have feedbacks, positive

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or negative, but that you know,

again, that we are in interaction.

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So your ideas, your vision, Can

inspire, but also can scare people.

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Also, some people, including in my team,

didn't share my vision, or understood

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where, we could go, as a leader, it's

very important to identify the diversity

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of talents, in the world network.

381

That you have a different

type of ecosystems, different

382

characters, different, skills.

383

And so when you have this diversity

of skills and opinions in your team,

384

it's very important to communicate

your vision where you want to

385

go why and how you get there.

386

And I think this is, this is where

I, for me, a good leadership is.

387

Is that you are able to share your clear

vision and that people want to be part

388

of it Sometimes it worked amazingly.

389

even people I thought,

were not interested joined.

390

you remember Jeff, we had this amazing

workshop and this is what I like most.

391

It's not to talk to the people

who are convinced or people

392

who are already with you.

393

Is without convincing, but inspiring

the skeptics, people who are skeptics,

394

or even against you in a way.

395

That thing, okay, I'm going to

attend this workshop because I

396

have to, my boss told me to, and

I'm not going to learn anything.

397

And I'm going to waste my time.

398

How many of us, even myself, sometimes

I go to meetings and this is my mood.

399

And this is how I sit but remember

Jeff, when we were in some countries

400

and we had this type of characters, you

know, the enthusiastic, the talkers.

401

I always remember this kind of interaction

where people at the beginning were not

402

at all enthusiastic and thinking this

is not going to get me anywhere, this is

403

not going to help me to find my solution.

404

Because of our workshop, Jeff, at the

end they said, Oh my God, Not only

405

I have the solution for my problems

and I find it myself with the team,

406

with the people there, but also I

am enthusiastic and I'm going to act

407

and change, which was not the case.

408

for me, that's the two big shifts that

the leader can make without convincing,

409

but just your attitude, your genuinity.

410

I don't know if you say that in

English, but you are genuine.

411

You say, this is who I am.

412

This is why I'm here, this is my

expectation, what are your expectations,

413

and that I cannot do, that I can

do, and then that the person that

414

didn't have an expectation still

has learned something and is giving

415

you that feedback, that's pretty

rewarding, and that's a gift of life.

416

we had the chance with Jeff and

Lori to have that several times.

417

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, it wasn't about,

I don't, we never went out to

418

convince people that they needed

to do something in a certain way.

419

Yes, we wanted to show them frameworks and

ways to maybe tell their story differently

420

or to engage stakeholders differently.

421

But there was the skeptics in the room.

422

And I remember being in

a small town in Israel.

423

We were having falafel because we were

going to have a meeting to help bring the

424

rest of the stakeholders to the table.

425

I remember being in many workshops

around the world where there was the

426

skeptic in the room and, and your

ability to walk over to them and

427

speak with them without convincing.

428

That's remarkable.

429

Because I think the leader's tendency

is to want to give someone the facts

430

or to give them the direction to tell

them they must follow a certain path.

431

But you definitely

inspired them to follow.

432

I'm curious, what is it that

you've learned about that?

433

what is it that you must do

in order to get those folks to

434

follow on that journey with you?

435

Miriem: Yes, I think that's exactly the

difference between flower and flower.

436

And being powerful in the sense that

you can be in a kind of, power function.

437

And because you are the boss, if you

say something, people will do it.

438

Even if they don't want to do it

just because they want to please

439

you because you're their boss,

whatever the difference is when

440

there is no power game in the room.

441

in these local communities or

traditions you are in a circle.

442

everybody speaks one after

another and you are just heard

443

and respected as a human being.

444

in my experience, all the time where

there were kind of, even projections

445

about power situation, that they

were giving me too much power, not

446

enough power, or projecting their

fears about me having power over them,

447

It doesn't work that well, there are,

some, filters that are not working.

448

When you are in a situation where

there is respect, there is trust,

449

and that you are really in a circle

for sharing and that you are genuine.

450

For me, in my experience, even

if people don't follow you, even

451

if you don't inspire people, even

if people say, no, your idea is

452

crap and I'm not going to do it.

453

If you are genuine with yourself and with

your ideas, you're okay, you're safe.

454

and it happened to me in my career

to speak in two different audiences.

455

And one of them recently was banks, people

from banks, certain age, certain culture.

456

Talking about biodiversity

and living, they looked at

457

me like I was Greta Thunberg,

458

Jeff Melnyk: was

459

Miriem: just a scientist background

and speaking how it was important

460

by diversity as, you know, source of

wealth and, and, and, and richness.

461

You can see that you go to this

kind of audience sometimes.

462

people are looking at you like, we

don't care, even a bit aggressive or

463

negative you can see that the agency

is not at all in tune with you.

464

You can see that you are even

disturbing them or they are not happy.

465

And the boss said to the

guy who was animating the

466

moderator cut, that's it, stop.

467

I left and the moderator who

invited me was feeling sorry.

468

I could see it's because they didn't

want to have this discussion about how to

469

choose an investment that is respectful

of the living versus other investment.

470

Just this question was

difficult for them too.

471

And I remember that when I was out, went

out of this audience, there were three

472

women, rather young, that came to me

and said to me, thank you for coming.

473

they are not ready.

474

Yet, but we were very interested

and would like to have some

475

guidance or reports from you.

476

How can we identify some criteria

to select investment that are not

477

going to destroy biodiversity?

478

And sometimes you have to accept

as a leader that you don't inspire

479

people automatically, that you can go

to a room and that maybe one person

480

only is going to be interested.

481

But this person, you never know,

482

Jeff Melnyk: it

483

Miriem: might be Gandhi, it might

be the person who is going to change

484

the whole bank system in 10 years.

485

So you never know.

486

But if you are genuine, if you are coming

from your perspective, being humble

487

and saying, okay, this is why I do it.

488

This is what I've learned.

489

And this is what I'm sharing with you.

490

I respect you because you are investing

and you are part of the solution.

491

You are ready to listen to me

or not, but I respect you and

492

I want you to be part of this.

493

Sometimes you will be lessened and

sometimes you will be even rejected.

494

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

495

Miriem: And this happened to me.

496

rejection is not something that we

should be afraid of and failures is not

497

something that we should be afraid of.

498

I've learned more from my failures

and from this moment than going to

499

rooms where people were so happy

that I spoke what they were thinking.

500

I think this is important as a

leader also to be ready sometimes.

501

To make people reject you or Christian you

or not support you, this is where you find

502

your true strengths as a leader for me,

503

I learned it the tough way sometimes,

but I know who I am now and I

504

know who I am not, and I know what

I can do and what I cannot do.

505

nobody can take that from me.

506

Nobody.

507

Jeff Melnyk: So we have our eight

qualities of human centered leadership

508

that we developed a few years ago, and

through research around the world with

509

different leaders like yourselves,

identified these eight qualities as

510

being common and accessible to all.

511

I'm curious, out of the eight, which

would you say is your strength?

512

Miriem: If you had asked me

this question a few months ago,

513

I wouldn't have said the same.

514

maybe today, I would say, I talked

a lot about my authenticity, but I

515

would say today, my vulnerability.

516

Jeff Melnyk: what's coming

up for you on vulnerability?

517

Why is that one today showing up for you?

518

Miriem: Because as a leader, and because

of your background and your history,

519

I've seen that sometimes you hide your

treasure, and I can share something

520

that I would have never said before.

521

my intuition, my vision is

linked to my sensibility.

522

I can go into a room and feel if

the atmosphere is heavy or not.

523

The exchanges I've told you under

the souvenir of those workshop where

524

you go into a room and you know

immediately that the people in the

525

room are not ready or they don't want

to listen or they are making noise,

526

Very sensitive to that.

527

So you can use that as a strength or

a weakness for many years, possibly

528

also being a woman leader or very

difficult to have many role models.

529

When I started my career,

530

showing your vulnerability for me

was like, they're going to see I'm

531

sensitive, I'm emotional and, I'm weak.

532

And I don't want them to see that

because I want to make sure that,

533

you know, a leader should be.

534

strong and not sure that sometimes

you have doubts and not sure that

535

sometimes you're not sure and not

sure that sometimes you're, insecure.

536

And of course you are.

537

I don't think that there are many

humans, and for me, there are not humans

538

that are not doubting, not feeling

insecure, not saying, Oh my God, did

539

I did right or whatever, you know?

540

So you're hiding that, but I discovered

by experience and by what I told

541

you, the rejection, and also how

you touch people without sometimes

542

wanting to touch them, just because

you're a genuine people can feel that.

543

So we are all very feeling people.

544

We talk a lot with the brain, but

we have a body, we feel there is a

545

body language, there are emotions.

546

being vulnerable means you do mistakes

sometimes that you can hurt people,

547

even if you don't want to, that you can

be hurt, that sometimes you want to do

548

the best, but it's bigger failure and

sometimes, you know, you really wanted

549

something to work out and it doesn't

550

And this is part of the journey of

being a human and being a leader.

551

And so being sensitive now for me

is something that is my strengths.

552

Being even oversensitive

is a gift I can feel.

553

If this person is ready to listen, or

if the audience is ready and I adapt

554

my speeches or with the person and

also accepting that the other person's

555

also is going to be vulnerable and that

maybe they are reacting this way because

556

they are scared to fail, scared to

look not enough, scared to disappoint.

557

Thank you very much.

558

Now, I think that there

is a power in softness.

559

There is a power in being gentle.

560

There is a power in being vulnerable.

561

You just have to do that with

the right persons, of course.

562

Jeff Melnyk: which of the qualities

do you think has been your stretch?

563

Miriem: Self doubt.

564

Jeff Melnyk: Tell me more.

565

Miriem: Self doubt.

566

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

567

Miriem: You know, it's amazing.

568

Sometimes you're so demanding on yourself.

569

that you always think that

you're not good enough.

570

it's cultural, it's education,

it's your psychological, it's your

571

parents, it's your background.

572

It's many things.

573

I think there is a good

level of self doubt.

574

Like there is a good level

of cup of coffee every day.

575

If you take too many,

this is becoming a poison.

576

You see, there is a good balance.

577

It's good to have self doubt because

you cannot be right all the time

578

or you have to question yourself.

579

But if systematically You're

not sure or you underestimate or

580

there is this voice in your head

that is always criticizing you.

581

You don't need an enemy.

582

I don't need an enemy in my office.

583

I've had my own little person in my

head saying, Hey, what are you doing?

584

And we all have this person, I think.

585

sometimes you just have to say

to this person, Hey, shut up.

586

Or just go and take a walk.

587

Here I'm working, or here I'm busy,

or here I'm going to be happy.

588

So you just go and do a jogging or a

marathon and come back when you are ready.

589

Jeff Melnyk: But the flip

of self doubt is conviction.

590

And I know you've had that

conviction as a leader to take

591

people forward with your vision.

592

Is it The self doubt creeping

in to say, we shouldn't go

593

there, I shouldn't do that.

594

Where does the self doubt come from?

595

Miriem: Two aspects of it.

596

The self doubt is, are

we going to make it?

597

Are we going to really make it?

598

Because I think it's very good to have

a leader that has a positive vision.

599

And I think I've played a lot this role.

600

Also, for me, it makes me feel better.

601

To say, yes, we can, yes, it's possible,

and I have a tendency when it's too Black

602

or people are too negative to say, but

look at what has been possible and that

603

people thought they were not possible.

604

And look how these people did it,

without, being violent, arrogant or mean.

605

So, they did it, and we have

the chance in this planet Earth

606

to have some models like that.

607

You know, the ones I'm

referring to, Nelson Mandela

608

or Gandhi I'm built like that.

609

I'm built like always to look at the

bright side of life, not to think

610

about the movie that everybody's

going to think about now, to

611

look on the bright side of life.

612

even if it's dark, I will

always spot that there is this.

613

This is my strengths, but the self

doubt is I am like that, but I can

614

see that people are not like me.

615

So it's very easy for many

people to give up on the path.

616

When you climb Everest,

you don't do it once.

617

That's why you have different, stop overs.

618

That's why you do the body.

619

And that's why when you think that

this is it, you cannot continue.

620

You can still continue.

621

And there are many stories like that.

622

But sometimes, it doesn't work.

623

the self taught was about getting

colleagues, to share my vision until

624

the end, and to be self confident

that they could do it until the end.

625

And when you don't succeed to, to raise

your colleagues or your friends to the

626

best part of themselves, you have a

feeling of failure because you think

627

did I do enough for them to feel self

confident or that they could do it?

628

Or was I wrong in getting them this

is where sometimes I have self doubt,

629

but my capacity to share my vision and

to bring along people to implement it.

630

Jeff Melnyk: We're almost out of time,

but I have two more questions for you.

631

If you could go back 10 years, what

would be the advice you'd give yourself?

632

Miriem: You're only

responsible of yourself.

633

You're not responsible of the other

people's story, emotions, understanding,

634

interpretation of what you say.

635

So I would say to myself,

you've done the best you could.

636

You had the best intentions, you've

tried your best, but you're not supposed

637

as a leader or as a person to carry

on your shoulders all those people's

638

drama or failures or self doubts.

639

You're yours, manage them, and your

life is going to be your message.

640

And I take for me what Gandhi said.

641

My life is my message.

642

Jeff Melnyk: Do you think ten years

ago you were taking everyone else's

643

self doubt disheartenment negativity

and lack of hope as part of your

644

sense of achievement back then?

645

Miriem: Yes.

646

I thought that if I was enough

inspiring, enthusiastic.

647

If I could share the way I see life

with my glasses, with my eyes, then they

648

could see like me that it's possible.

649

They could see like me

that we can get there.

650

the most sadness I had in my career

and personal life is when I'm

651

not understood in my intention.

652

And

653

When I couldn't be able to be

understood and sharing, as I say,

654

my vision, because my vision

was always to take people

655

higher to elevate, to go higher.

656

there is an effort to

be made to go higher.

657

You can see in this fear and hate.

658

It's so easy to fall into fear and hate.

659

And to hate somebody or to blame somebody,

there is nothing easier than that.

660

But to find the strength inside of you

to love, to forgive, to try to understand

661

even somebody who has been treating

you badly this is taking an effort.

662

And this is the real courage

and strength for me now.

663

I think I'm working in UNESCO because

I am absolutely convinced that we need

664

this kind of institution and programs

that make people understand each other

665

despite their diversity we need ways,

666

To go beyond the fear and to show

people that fear is not going to get you

667

anywhere than to wars and to suffering.

668

Jeff Melnyk: what does the

next ten years look like then?

669

That sounds like a life's work.

670

Miriam.

671

You've already made amazing

change in our planet.

672

It sounds like there's another

mission there to take the fear away.

673

What's the next 10 years

going to look like?

674

Miriem: I think I'm going

to cultivate my own garden.

675

I'm going next year to do a training

on permaculture as a gift to myself.

676

And also as a kind of consistency

about my career, I've been blessed to

677

work in UNESCO for that many years.

678

I've been blessed to care and to support

people who care about the planet and

679

are doing amazing things everywhere.

680

It's a blessing.

681

It's a very good karma, if some of my

friends would say, to have been traveling

682

and seeing all this beauty everywhere.

683

I've really been blessed.

684

Beautiful Earth.

685

beautiful places, beautiful people.

686

And those people are in my heart, and

they're going to be with me all my life.

687

some of them that were

colleagues became friends.

688

I will continue to support them just

by being who I am and sharing my

689

message like I am with you today.

690

Now I need to put my hands and to grow

my own gardens and my own vegetable and

691

this is going to be my contribution also.

692

It's my own little biosphere reserve.

693

I've been supporting this network through

different activities and different

694

levels and I'm going to be myself.

695

Doing the biosphere reserve work in

my garden and growing some vegetables

696

and showing to people in my community

and surrounding that being in contact

697

with earth and building a community

like in the biosphere reserve

698

where people support each other and

share the best of their talents.

699

I would be happy to share whatever I can.

700

Maybe I'm very gifted to grow basil.

701

And whatever I'm good at, I would be happy

to share and to cook because I love food.

702

I love to celebrate life.

703

I see myself, in the next 10

years, continuing to support the

704

community and working in UNESCO,

but also supporting more locally, my

705

friends, my family, and the earth.

706

In my garden with my tree and,

flowers and eating my vegetables.

707

Jeff Melnyk: Yes.

708

Back to me now.

709

But is there, something about

that that sounds like it's coming

710

back, like you said, closing the

loop in, your love of nature, your

711

love of agriculture, but also.

712

Getting your hands in the soil

versus just talking about the

713

biodiversity becoming with it again.

714

Are you hopeful for the next decade?

715

Do you think we're on a shift?

716

Miriem: Yes, I think that we are at the

crossroad, if I have one message linked

717

to leadership, we are all leaders.

718

We are leading our own life.

719

I hope the people listening to

this podcast feel empowered you

720

are leading your own life we

have choices to make every day.

721

And I think that humanity is at the

crossroads today and nothing is doomed,

722

there is always a to Go higher to choose

maybe the most difficult path one that

723

requires more efforts, but the one that

makes you feel consistent with yourself.

724

even if you're isolated, even

if you are not the majority,

725

I really want to be in peace with myself.

726

being in peace with myself

is not to do any harm.

727

It's not to hurt anybody.

728

It's not to hurt the earth.

729

when you have the choice to be nice

to somebody, choose to be nice.

730

even if somebody is hurting you, be kind.

731

This is the choice we can make.

732

And this is something we can really make.

733

Take the most difficult path because

when you get there, you go higher and

734

when you go higher, you can help others

and be a model for others people can see

735

that even if they were in jail for 27

years, they go out of jail and they are

736

forgiving the people who put them in jail

for 27 years for no good reasons at all.

737

They are still very relevant today.

738

And this is the choice we

have individually to make.

739

So be your leader, choose.

740

Who you want to be, choose

what you want people to see.

741

Jeff Melnyk: Well, you've inspired us,

Miriam, and we couldn't have been on

742

this journey without you, so thank you.

743

And I have so many great experiences

working with you, but I've had so many

744

learnings from you as a leader, it's

been awesome having you on the podcast.

745

We could talk forever about

stories of things that we've

746

learned around the world.

747

But I think the messages of hope

and kindness and connection and

748

vulnerability are something that

I'm going to take from today.

749

So thank you so much.

750

Miriem: thank you It was very

nice to do that with you today.

751

Jeff conveyed that message

to Laurie and the team.

752

It's been a breakthrough to work with you.

753

I will share some of the emails.

754

People remember that.

755

workshop and the doubt I had when

we did that at the beginning?

756

Yes.

757

Because every big change, you

doubt, you're scared, you're

758

not sure it's going to work.

759

And I didn't know where we were getting.

760

Yes or no?

761

I didn't know.

762

I told you, let's try.

763

And I didn't know if we were

going to be successful and we

764

were successful in that sense.

765

And I say now 20 years or 15

years after people remember

766

the workshop we did together.

767

People remember the product to share.

768

People remember the narrative.

769

People remember that.

770

So I think let's be proud.

771

Jeff Melnyk: It's made the difference.

772

Miriem: So much for supporting me all

these years I'm very proud and very

773

glad about what we've done together.

774

That was really worth it and

really part of my career.

775

I'm very glad we did that.

776

Thanks for listening, everyone.

777

You can find out more about UNESCO

Biosphere Reserves at unesco.

778

org.

779

This special edition of the podcast will

continue with a featured leader from

780

our community sharing their story in

a new episode coming every other week.

781

Reimagining Work From Within is available

wherever you listen to podcasts.