“Anytime a salesperson is in front of a buyer, that buyer is asking themselves why, based off all the options available to me, should I buy from you? And if we can’t answer that question in a real, meaningful, impactful way, we are driving them to a price decision that we don’t want them to get to anyway. So, you have to be able to answer that question on both sides.”

-- Brian McCauley, Founder of The Sales Guy and Columnist for Pro Sales

Wisdom often comes at the cost of experience and mistakes. Our featured guest for this episode has sales experience in spades and shares it with us through stories and insights from his career.

Brian McCauley, The Sales Guy, has been in construction sales for nearly thirty years. He is happy to deliver some pearls of wisdom he’s picked up, like dealing with a common problem many salespeople face that almost derailed his career, and four lessons from his recent travels.

Topics discussed in this interview:

- How did Brian start in sales?

- Brian’s current responsibilities

- Who does he read/watch/listen to for sales advice?

- Writing and inspiration for content

- Approaching sales teams in B2C and B2B

- The biggest challenge many salespeople face

- Introducing emotion into the sales process

- Scripted vs. prepared presentations

- What does Brian look for in a salesperson?

- Narrowing down potential candidates for a position

- What is the post-COVID sales landscape like?

- Being genuine is key to sales success

- Advice on social media

- The importance of getting out there and actively searching for leads

- Advice for newer salespeople

- Rapid fire questions

Check out Brian’s website, brianthesalesguy.com, email him at brianthesalesguy@gmail.com, or find him on LinkedIn or Facebook.

Titles mentioned: Never Split the Difference

For more Construction Disruption, listen on Apple Podcasts or YouTube

Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn

This episode was produced by Isaiah Industries, Inc.

Intro/Outro: Welcome to the Construction Disruption podcast, where we uncover the future of design, building, and remodeling.

Todd Miller: I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries, a manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building materials. Today, my co-host is Ethan Young. Ethan, how are you today?

Ethan Young: I'm doing pretty good today, how about you?

Todd Miller: I am doing well also. I always ask that question, it's kind of a humdrum question. I should ask something else. I don't know. I'll come up with a different thing for next time.

Ethan Young: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Todd Miller: So I do have a couple questions for you.So, you know. Okay, I'll go ahead and spill the beans. We sometimes open with some dad jokes, and so I've got a couple of dad jokes. And actually these are quizzes because I know that Ethan's heard these before. Well, so we'll see how good his recollection is as to whether he knows the punchline or not. Okay, dad joke number one, what do you call cheese that isn't yours?

Ethan Young: Cheese isn't yours? I don't know. I don't know.

Todd Miller: I got you, I'm impressed. Nacho cheese.

Ethan Young: Oh, that's a good one.

Todd Miller: Okay, never mind. Next one. Now, I knew you when you were in first, second grade. I am certain that this joke came up at some time at Cub Scouts or something.

Ethan Young: Mm hmm.

Todd Miller: How do you make a tissue dance?

Ethan Young: I don't know, I don't know. I'm drawing a blank. You got me.

Todd Miller: Oh, my gosh. You are breaking my heart here, man. You put a little boogie in it.

Ethan Young: Oh, I have heard that one. Yeah, I've definitely heard that one somewhere.

Todd Miller: Okay, let's move forward. Man, that was a dismal failure on my part, I apologize. So, anyway, let our audience know once again, in this episode of Construction Disruption, we are doing challenge words. What that means is each of us and also our guest have been given a word by one of the others that we are challenged to work into the conversation at some point as seamlessly as possible. You, the audience, can be listening for perhaps unusual words or non-sequitur words that we say and wonder if that's the challenge word at the end of the show. So stay tuned. We will reveal our success or lack thereof, with using our challenge words. So you're good with moving ahead, Ethan?

Ethan Young: Yeah, I'm good. Let's get to it.

Todd Miller: Great. So I'm excited about today's show. Having spent my entire career, which is more years than I like to say at this point. One thing I have learned, you know, and I've spent my entire career in sales, one thing I've learned is that the business of selling is very dynamic as part of developing a successful sales system for any business. You really, in my thought, you really never hit a point where you just sort of lock in and things never need any attention ever again. But on the other hand, you know, making quick or haphazard changes for no particular reason in particular, to a sales system can also sink the ship, sometimes literally. So today, our guest is a longtime expert trainer and consultant in sales. He has worked both in B2B, business to business and B2C, business to consumer in particular. He has worked in both those in the construction industry. Our guest today is Mr. Brian McCauley. Brian is founder of The Sales Guy. Heck, as you're going to find out, he is The Sales Guy. He is also a featured columnist in Pro Sales and Remodeling Magazines. Brian's advice is sought after and respected by the entire industry. He has trained and inspired thousands of salespeople across the country. In addition to doing that training, Brian has had sales and leadership roles both at wholesalers, distributors, manufacturers, and also contractors in our industry. Brian knows the construction industry inside and out at all levels, so I encourage you strap in, grab a pen to take some notes and listen closely to this great oracle or sage of sales wisdom, Brian McCauley. Brian, welcome to Construction Disruption. What a pleasure to have you on the show today.

Brian McCauley: Hey, Todd, thanks for having me. I always get a little nervous when I hear these elaborate introductions about somebody's skillset. Always get me a little nervous even from the jump.

Todd Miller: It's well-deserved. And I have been looking forward to this show because I've been spending a lot of time kind of learning about you and watching some of the things you have, the content you have online already, it's all great stuff. So let's kind of start back a few years ago. I'm kind of curious, tell us what your start was in the construction industry. And, you know, as you got started in this industry, what were some of the things that made you kind of think, wow, this is an industry that I love and would want to make a career in?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, I got started soon out of college. It was in the early nineties. I'm older than that though. It took me, I believe, eight years, nine years to get a four year degree. I wasn't quite locked in in college, you know, so I had some fits and starts to get through. But my mom was dating a gentleman at the time that sold building materials. He actually had retired from Ford, had a pension, didn't really need the job. He just liked to go out, meet, and talk to people. They were opening a new distribution center in Louisville. And so I went ahead and started there, started inside learning products, learned processes, people, that sort of thing, the business. And then after a couple of years, maybe about a year, went out into sales and that was really a start. And I've stayed in building materials distribution up to about seven, eight years ago. Now I'm in the manufacturing realm as well as kind of, you know, running my little my company, The Sales Guy. But I guess what really got me, kept me, hooked me in this business. Number one, the autonomy of sales. It was really nobody standing over your shoulder every single minute of the day, making sure you're doing what you're doing, your'e supposed to be doing. You know, you plan your own day, you plan your own week. And if your numbers are there and the margins there and everybody's happy, it's a good thing. And there's just really, really good people in this business. I mean, all up and down the supply chain, just really good, honest, hardworking, decent people. And you can make a pretty good living at it, too, so. If you told me 30 years ago when I first got started, I'd still be in this business, I probably would tell ya, I don't think that's gonna happen, but it's just kind of something to get into. And stuck's the wrong word, man. You just get into it. It becomes part of who you are. It's just, it's just a great business.

Todd Miller: You know, that's great. And you know, that is a cool thought on sales. You've kinda got control of your own destiny. But you're right, great industry that I know we love as well also. So tell us a little bit. I mean, I know that you've got the consulting side with the Sales Guy. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing also right now on more the manufacturing side and and, you know, even a little bit about the types of companies that you consult and train and work with.

Brian McCauley: Well, right now I am director of sales training for Cornerstone Building Brands. We have a industrial, commercial, and a residential side. I work with our apertures group, which is the windows. So it's the Simonton brand, Atrium brand, Ply Gem and SilverLine, and I'm director of sales training there. So what that entails is, man, I don't have anybody that reports to me. I have before, it's not all it's cracked up to be. I have no program responsibility, no product responsibility. I just fly all over the country and talk to either distribution salespeople or in-home salespeople about how do we get more effective at communicating our message and trying to sell more effectively?

Todd Miller: I'm kind of curious. And one of the things I think our industry is known for is having some great mentors and people to learn from out there. Any particular mentors that you've had over the years that you've learned from? And I'm curious to who do you pay attention to today, either inside or outside of the industry to, you know, kind of keep stretching yourself and iron sharpens iron type thing?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, I would say early on, probably maybe 15 years ago, I crossed paths with a guy named Waldo Waldman, the Wingman, and we hired him to speak at a national meeting when I was with Norandex, and I spoke at that meeting as well, and he was gracious enough with his time to view some video I had. I asked him to check out some video and see what he thought, give me some pointers. He was gracious enough to do so, and then he and I stayed connected and stayed in touch ever since and occasionally ask him for information. He'll ask me for information. So it's become, I wouldn't you know, it's become a kind of a mentor situation. But he's just a really good guy. He's very sharp, really knows his stuff. And then somebody in our industry that I follow and like to follow is Bradley Hartman. Just because he's been in our business, you know, he's been on the builder side and I think he has some really good ideas about how to craft a value message and and look a little differently at what you do and and how to communicate it more effectively. And I guess as far as being able to maybe to continue to dig, continue to get better writing columns really helps me. When I first started writing Pro Sales and Remodeling Magazine, really, I'm not a great writer. I'll be honest with you. I struggle sometimes getting 600 words out of this head on the paper, and all I would take was training content and build me a little 600-word column around it, which was all great for about 12 or 18 months until I ran out of that content and I had to start really digging into my thinking and challenging my thinking and looking for different areas. And that's really helped me because it it forces you to look at what you do kind of under a microscope and can you build a better message? Can you tweak something a little bit differently? And it's actually helped me create a lot more content that I'm able to deliver in front of our customers and some of my customers today.

Todd Miller: That makes a lot of sense. I like that. So imagine this. So you're in front of a sales team for the first time, could be B2B or B2C, your choice. Maybe doesn't make a difference. Kind of curious as you try to get the attention of that sales team and get them to to start thinking a little differently. What do you lead with? What do you lead with to get their attention and kind of draw them in and get them to start paying a little attention to what you have to say?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, there is a different opening in business to business and B2C, but I'll go business to business. Any time I get in front of a group of distribution salespeople, my first question always is why do your customers buy from you? And I hear things like trust, relationships, have to have good products, have to have good service, have to do it all for a fair price, and a myriad of other things. So I let them go, give me four, five, six, seven examples. Andthen I ask them, I said, Look, this is all I do. I fly all over the country, east, west, north to south and in front of folks just like y'all and your competition, to be honest with you. And when I ask that question, do you think I ever hear anything different than the five, six or seven things that you all said and always are saying now? You probably hear the same thing everywhere you go. Think about that for a second. Because if that's how you're communicating what you do in your marketplace, then all the builders and contractors are hearing you and everybody else say the same thing. Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. It kind of becomes some white noise that we're really not able to cut through. So what I want to do over the next couple of hours is let's dig into that a little bit, see how we can more effectively communicate our message. And it tends to be a pretty good attention grabber.

Todd Miller: Man, I love that. Now, that is a great response and get people to realize that, yeah, you got to set yourself apart from everyone else. So, you know, I know that a lot of your career jobs have been in B2B, I mean, working for manufacturers, wholesalers, so forth. But a lot of times you're in front of B2C sales teams training them. Any key differences that you see between B2B and B2C selling?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, I said probably 70% of my time in front of in-home salespeople and the other 30% in front of business to business. But there are some similarities, I believe in the two. You know, in both realms, you have to communicate effectively and you really got to be able to answer that golden question. Anytime a salesperson is in front of a buyer, that buyer is asking themselves why, based off all the options available to me, should I buy from you? And if we can't answer that question in a real, meaningful, impactful way, we are driving them to a price decision that we don't want them to get to anyway. So you have to be able to answer that question on both sides. In business to business, I believe the number one skill you have to have to be effective, truly effective and long-term effective, is your ability to manage your time and your territory. And I've seen so many salespeople suffer needlessly because they can't get their hands around how to manage their time or territory better. And quite frankly, in our industry, not a lot of companies give salespeople good tools to go out and do that. We're kind of left up to our own devices. So that's a big hot -button for me. And I get pretty passionate about it because I struggled with that when I first got started. Had my first year and a half in, to the point where I almost didn't stay in sales and I had no idea where I'd been if I didn't figure it out, but I got challenged or something. I ended up figuring it out and was able to kind of power through it. So that was very helpful. And business to consumer, I believe the number one thing that you got to get on the table in those sales interactions is emotion. There has to be some emotional component to get somebody to want to move in and change their house, add windows, put a new door in, you know, what have you. And I think it was Socrates said persuasion can't happen in the absence of emotion. And we're not ever going to persuade somebody if there's not a little emotional component in there, because there's a big difference between needs and wants, in my opinion, and especially business to consumer. Somebody might need a door, they might need a window, they might need a roof. But what they want to purchase is all driving on their wants and the wants is where the emotions are. So the story I tell is, I don't need the car I drive, I want the car I drive. I don't need a 75-inch TV. A 55-inch TV works fine in 99% of the houses in the United States of America. But we want 75, 85, projection screen TVs. So the want is where the emotions are at. And if you're in the home speaking to a homeowner, you really got to be able to tap into those emotions.

Ethan Young: Yeah, I think that's a great insight. I wanted to chime in, too, and ask you a question that is pretty relevant to our business. But what do you think about prepared presentations for sales for both B2B and B2C? Because we have one that we use. It's kind of a software-based one called Ingage. But do you think a prepared presentation is a really helpful tool or do you think it's not quite always the right way to go? What are your thoughts on it?

Brian McCauley: Well, there's a word you hear often in this industry. It's called scripted. And I think there's a difference between prepared and scripted. I'm not a scripted guy. I mean, I don't give me a list of 100 words that I got to use in order to tell my story. But I do think some guidance on how we want to tell our story and preparation is critical. I don't wing a sales call. I wouldn't suggest anybody wings a sales call. So I think there's a lot to be said for preparation and planning. I just, as long as there's a difference being prepared and scripted. I've talked to quite a few fairly large in-home sales organizations that may buy a scripted program from one of the myriad of consultants that sell them. And what they tell me is that, you know, I buy it for X amount of dollars a month and it ain't cheap. And it turned out I had to change all the words in it, you know, because they're using words that our guys won't use. And I'm thinking, well, if you're buying it, why do you got to change all the words? So I'm less scripted and more prepared now. This makes sense even. But I was always telling sales that customers make bad decisions when they decide who, what, when, where to buy. They decide on the salesperson, the company they represent, the products they're selling, the price of those products, and then whether or not it's time for them to buy or not. And I believe if we follow our presentation to how they're making that decision, our odds of success are going to go up.

Ethan Young: Yeah, I like that for sure.

Todd Miller: That is a great distinction. I love the way you drew that out, very interesting. So kind of thinking a little bit about how you recruit and put together a sales team, you know, kind of like picking players on a football team or something. But what do you look for in terms of of a prospective salesperson? Any particular personality profile, any skills, passions, experiences that you're really looking for when you're out there recruiting and choosing sales team members?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, well, as you know, if you've been, if you've done it enough, it's sort of it's a crapshoot. I mean, you can look for certain, you can look for certain attributes, certain personality skills that sometimes man, there's just not fit. It's really tough. I look for curiosity, how curious a person is about the role, about the company, the culture, how they see themselves fitting into it. Because if you're interviewing sales folks, they're gonna spend a lot of time telling you how good they are, how much they sold last year, what was the margin, how much they've grown territory, and they're going to spin it and manufacture it the way they're going to look the best. And they well should. But I'm looking for curiosity, I'm looking for sincerity. You almost got to have sort of a servant's heart. I think you really got to want to help people in this business in order to be effective. And there is a tip or a tactic that I've talked about before, especially from a manager's perspective, when they're hiring. If you get down to your final one or two candidates, I'll say two or three candidates, and those are who you're you're mulling over. I would invite both of them separately out to lunch with you and somebody else on your staff that they will probably work in level with or a little bit above and just watch how they interact. Watch how they interact with you as a person. Watch how they interact with you. Watch how they interact with the waitstaff. Are they talking to this person about the job, the role of the company, their role in it? How I can help make your life easier? Or are they just gonna continue to buffalo through about how great they are and how much they sell? You get them on that. They're not really thinking that you're looking at them in that way, but it can give you some keen insights into them and how they may conduct themselves if they come on board.

Todd Miller: You know I love that. Those curiosity, sincerity, servant's heart. I love the lunch thing too, and have done that a number of times. But it was kind of interesting, I was talking yesterday with a couple of our folks from operations and, you know, they interview folks for positions in manufacturing. And, you know, one of the comments they made to me was, you know, it seems like lately we've been interviewing people who are professional interviewees. They really know how to interview well, but then the rubber doesn't really ever hit the road. And so you get some great advice there on kind of ways to to sort through that. That's good stuff. So, you know, here we are, 2023, the end of it, man the years fly by. But, you know, we're kind of in this hopefully post-COVID world. Curious during that whole COVID phase and the last couple of years, have you seen anything change in sales? And obviously, then, you know what things have stayed the same and likely will never change?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, I think number one is I mean, I remember what. Heck, everybody's in the same boat. You know, when I shut down like March 14th of 2020, I think that was my last trip. I came back home and everybody's thinking, you know, get your head down for two weeks, take a little vacation. This thing all be over with. And it turned into two months, six months, eight months, a year. And we really didn't know what to do. But what you started hearing really early in that is, the face-to-face sales call is dead. Everything's going to be virtual. Buyers don't want to see people face-to-face. Sales will never go back to the way it was before, and that couldn't be further from the truth. As soon as things leveled off and you could safely begin to get back out there again, everybody wanted to get back out there again. I remember one of the first things that we did coming out of October was a big show for a buying group. And usually you're working these shows, you're standing at your booth and everybody is twiddling their thumbs. Can't wait for the day to be over with. But it was actually fun. You're grabbing people and they want to be grabbed, you're engaging. It was really kind of cool. One of the things I found, though, during COVID, I would say it spoiled us because it did. And it was a really tough couple of years, is that sales people didn't really have to go sell anymore. Whoever had the product was making the sale and salespeople were just trying to keep their head above water. There was more requests coming in than you could feel, and that's changed. You know, we really need to get back out and do some more prospecting, some more picking up new business and some more selling. And we hadn't been used to that for, you know, 18, 24 months. And that's a tough part of the business. It's tough to be out there prospecting, looking for new business. And I think it's going to be a tougher pivot for salespeople to make that transition. I think that's one of the negatives that's come out of COVID.

Todd Miller: Man, I tell you, you're just a fountain, a fountain of wisdom there. Great observations on the things that have happened. And, you know, you're right. I mean, we have, many people didn't have to sell there for a while, but now things are kind of going back to more of a normal situation. We got to relearn some stuff.

Brian McCauley: Yeah, absolutely.

Todd Miller: So, you know, salespeople sometimes get a bad rap, and you just mentioned salesperson, and it conjures up images of, okay, I'm dating myself, but Herb Tarlek from the WKRP in Cincinnati show. But you know, what steps do you think a professional salesperson can take to really immediately differentiate themselves from any of those negative stereotypes out there and, you know, immediately show the prospect that I'm not going to be the same experience that you might be expecting?

Brian McCauley: Well, unlike Ethan, I'm old enough to remember WKRP in Cincinnati and Herb Tartek, I know exactly who you're talking about. And that's the kind of salesperson that's just trying to sell something. I just want to sell something, put something in somebody's hands and get paid for it. And sales can seem to be a complex career. I mean, there's a myriad of products, there's a myriad of features and benefits attached. Each product you gotta be able to manage your time and territory, your industry, understand the application of it, the services you deliver. But I believe sales can be really, really simple. I believe, number one, you got to be sincere and you can't be fake and be who you are. People read through fakes. You have to be sincere and try to be something that you're not. Number two, find problems to solve and you're not trying to sell product, you're trying to find problems. And then once you find problems that you can solve, be confident in your price to solve those problems. And I believe you can really you can break sales down into those three buckets. And you have a lot to chew on there.

Todd Miller: I've heard you talk a little bit on some other podcasts about social media and how kind of your thoughts on social media changed at one point and you told a story about your family. It involved John Calipari and the Today Show. But maybe you have other stories as well. But can you tell us, you know, what role you think social media plays for businesses and also individual salespeople?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, I think social media, if you, and I don't think you have to be very complex in your thinking. I believe you can be very, very, very simple with social media. Call it more of a grassroots campaign. I post multiple times a week to LinkedIn and Facebook, just merely sharing where I'm at. What am I doing? Who am I with? The tips I may have learned today. I throw all my columns out on social media and I do that to to maintain a brand of who I am or what I do. Not only for Cornerstone Building Brands, but just in general. And I believe everybody in your network needs to know what it is you do and who you do it for, and not one post a month man, but two or three a week. You got to be very patient because it takes a while for that to build. So don't do it for a couple of weeks, and think "I ain't getting anywhere." You got to continue to do it. And you know, I've had in-home salespeople that'll tell me to get more leads, they ask a homeowner, "Are you happy with this project?" "Yeah, we are." "Let me ask you, ma'am, do you have a Facebook account?" "Why, yes, I do." "Would you mind going on your Facebook account, making a post about the work we did and how satisfied you are and tag me in it?" "Oh, honey, I'd be happy to do that." Now, everybody in your network sees it, and it's a continuation of, you know, this must be a good guy and the people have used him. There's also a guy named Eric Gibson, he's in Dayton, Ohio. Squirrelz, with a Z, Home Improvement is his company name. And this cat gets like 30 to 50 leads a month on Facebook. Not during the winter, but spring, summer, and fall based on his his Facebook posts. Guys, he's humorous, he's consistent, but he does things like before and after videos. He'll walk a jobsite and explain to his customers, his viewership you know, what he's going to do on his house. He actually took, he took a video at one of the supply houses at one time and said, So if I'm buying this product to install in your house, this is the guy who loads it up in the truck. This is the guy who's going to be delivering it. So he does all kinds of different stuff, but he's very consistent, very patient in it. He's a little humorous, doesn't take himself too seriously, but he does a really, really good job.

Todd Miller: I'm going to check that out. I do not know him despite the fact I'm about 20 miles away from him, so I need to check that out. So I have no doubt, you know, over your years you've collected some pretty good boots-on-the-ground sales stories, maybe people you've coached to better performance or people you've learned from. Perhaps a story or two you can share with us?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, sure. I'll tell you, the first one, you know, when you work in a corporate role, especially distribution, they want you to go around the country and spend time with a salesperson. It's usually not for the right reasons. It's usually because somebody's struggling and needs some help, that sort of thing. I was able to encourage leadership at the time, "Hey, let's look at this a little differently. Why don't I spend a little time going around the country and spending time with our folks that are really good at what they do and been good for a long time? See if we can't learn some things that they do and add it to our communication to folks that are struggling." So one of those visits was down in Charlotte, North Carolina. A gentleman named Austin Crawford. Austin now works with, I believe, it's at Westlake Building Products.

Todd Miller: Oh, sure.

Brian McCauley: On the vinyl siding side of the business and we were going to visit a customer. And he said this guy bought four by eight sheets of plain white siding from us by the pallet. My first thought is this cat could get four by sheets by the pallet a lot of other places other than us for a lot cheaper. We just weren't set up to do business that way. So I'm thinking this is kind of weird. I'm gonna keep my eyes open. So we go visit this guy. They're not there, they're at lunch. But what he was doing was buying this in four by eight sheets. He would cut it up. It was basically creating a very early rendition of a virtually maintenance-free column. He was wrapping wood columns, and he was selling them to builders in his area. So we looked at the guy's operation a little bit, they're not there, so me and Austin get in the car and we're driving to lunch. And I asked, said, "Austin, this has been bugging me since we left the branch man. I said, this guy could buy this two or three other places by the pallet for probably $1, $1.25 a sheet cheaper than we can sell it to him. Why in the world is he buying it from you?" Austin said, "I ask myself the same question before I ever went in to talk to the guy. Because I knew if I couldn't answer that question, it was going to come down to $1.25 a sheet and I was never going to get an opportunity." So what I did at that point, I said, "Look, here's what I'll do. You buy a pallet from me at X, which is $1, $1.25 more than what you're paying now. And I'll come into this market one day a week till you sell through that pallet, selling your columns to builders in this market". Now, that was really the only product that guy was selling in the market. Austin's selling roofing, siding, windows, doors, other things. Austin was there anyway. So he continued to go in, help this guy sell, goes to him after he runs through the first pallet. And his turns were good, margins were still good. The guy stayed a customer for three or four years. So he just and I call that the why me principle. And I think if salespeople will ask, why me?, before you go in and talk to people, it helps you look at things more strategically and not just transactionally. Like that would be one. Anpther one that comes to mind. Champaign, Illinois, I had a sales guy that worked for me that lived in the Decateur area and we didn't get a lot of business out of Champaign. He said, "Well, look, there's nobody there. I know everybody in Champaign, everybody there. I know what little is there, you know, buys from us or there's a reason why we don't do business." And it just didn't make sense to me. You know, we didn't have a lot of business there. Champaign's a college town, they have their own public transportation; it's a pretty good-sized market. I said, "Why don't you humor me tomorrow? Let's block off your day, move your calendar stuff around. Let's go over there in the morning and just drive around. I call it trolling. Going up and down streets very systematically. See if we can see anybody working." He goes, "It's going to be a waste of time," I said, "Well, it might, but it's on me. I'll buy your lunch anyway." So we get there. We're running around. We saw 11 people working before lunch, 11 people. He had no idea who they were when we started the day. And so we get to lunch and he goes, I am a believer. We don't have to do this any more. I'll start doing this in this market and some other markets. It really opened his eyes up. You know, you think you've got a pretty good penetration in an area, but there are so many people that buy the products that we sell, we have no idea who they are. And a lot of these folks you're not gonna find unless you just happen to ride up on them because they're not advertised in anywhere. You'll ride up on them and you'll see them. And so that's two stories that I think could be useful to salespeople.

Todd Miller: So when you were out doing the trolling, you're just driving neighborhoods looking for people who are installing and doing jobs.

Brian McCauley: Yeah, absolutely.

Todd Miller: That is awesome. I love it. And I love too, what you said. And I got to admit, when I'm, I'm pretty selfish in this respect. If I have the opportunity to go out and be with a salesperson, I want to be with the good guy that I could learn from. But I realize the importance of you got to build into others as well. Well, so I think we're all going to agree. I mean, this is really, construction is a great industry and we do think a lot of our audience members here on the show are folks who are fairly new to design or building or remodeling. And, you know, we really want to inspire them. Any words of advice you have for folks who are fairly new in this industry?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, I wrote a column in Pro Sales magazine several months ago, and it got some really good feedback from some of the subscribers. And I actually created a training presentation built off of that off. And the the article was titled Lessons from the Road: Four Sales Truths Learned on the Front Lines. Well, actually, I think in the magazine it was Four Sales Truths You Won't Learn in College, but it's more four sales lessons I learned from the road. It's just like, Hey, just listen to a cat that's been doing it a long time. Here are four things that I've learned. Number one, not everybody appreciates a good value proposition. Some of them don't care. Now, if I can save a buck, I'm saving a buck. But that should not let the salesperson off the hook for trying to identify, craft, and communicate a better value message. So we should always be looking to craft and communicate a better message. The second truth is a lack of time and territory management skills will sink a sales career. We've already spoke about that before, but if you can't get a handle on that, you're going to struggle. And it seems simple, but it's not. A lot of these sales folks, they may have 150, 200 customers that they're supposed to be managing. And you're never going to remember all this stuff unless you have some sort of system you can put everybody into and be able to create weekly plans so you're seeing who you should be seeing, so things don't fall through the cracks. The third sales truth is focus, effort and attitude will take you a long way and not only in this business, but in life in general. Folks, being able to focus on what's important, having the correct attitude that when things go wrong that you just don't, you know, sink into a great depression, but you focus on what you can change and change what you can. And then the fourth truth that I really like is, every month starts at zero. So no matter how good last month was or how bad last month was, you have a chance to make up for it, for a chance to try to build on it. And a part of that last truth, though, it comes from a story I was at one time when I worked for a company that was owned by Owens Corning, and our business unit was a pretty small part of that, but they had a pretty all-encompassing training and onboarding program. So they found these 10, 12, 14 college kids, hire them. They all come into Toledo for 12, 13 weeks. They put them up in these little apartments. It's almost like college life for these, these folks still, you know. And so they go to a 12 or 13-week training program. One day I happened to be there and the person putting on the program said, "Hey Brian, you want to come down since you're in town and just listen to our day today?" I said, "Sure, I'll come down." So I sat through the session, they were doing time and territory management and it was all about maximize your time, make more calls, work, work, work, dig, dig, dig. And so at the very end she asked me, she said, "Brian, you've been doing this a while. Any pieces of advice for our young salespeople here." I said, "Yeah, maybe you shouldn't have asked me that." I told her, I said, "There is, there is." And I said, "I'm gonna tell you all one thing. Ya'll have yalked about maximizing your time. You've talked about working hard. You've talked about a lot of product. And I agree with all that. I really do, I work hard. I'm all over this country. I don't think anybody works any harder than me, but I'll tell you all this. Unfortunately, I've walked through quite a few cemeteries in my time, and when you go through there and you read headstones, you read things like beloved dad, beloved grandpa, beloved grandmother, I ain't never seen a tombstone that said, worked real hard and made a lot of money. I just haven't seen it. So I would I would suggest this. If you go home at night and I don't care how much you sell, I don't care how much money you make. I don't care how rich you are. If you go home at night and you put your hand on your front door handle, if things aren't right on the other side of that door, they ain't right. And so we need to work to live, not live to work. So I'll go. I suggest all you cats work hard, take a little time, smell roses, and work-life balance is incredibly great."

Todd Miller: That is some great advice, man. I just wanna follow you around and sit in on all of your sales trainings. Good stuff. It's been a great episode and we've covered a lot of ground and you shared a lot of great stuff, but we are getting close to the end of what we call sort of the business end of things. But is there anything we haven't covered today? I know we've covered a lot, but is there anything we haven't covered you'd like to cover?

Brian McCauley: Well, we talked about sales and you know, why we like it. And it's been a great industry, a great career for me and really can't see me. Probably the favorite thing I've ever done. It's kind of like my favorite pizza, pepperoni pizza. And sales is kind of like that. So I'd say let's go ahead and end there that, you know, it really is important to us. We love it. Stick with your favorites.

Todd Miller: Well, good stuff. Well, so before we close out, in a moment, we're going to get your contact information, too. But I do have to ask if you're willing to participate in something we call our rapid fire questions. So rapid fire consists of seven questions we ask you. Brian has no idea what we might ask him, but some of these may be serious, some may be silly. All you have to do is give a response to each of them. Are you up to the challenge of rapid fire?

Brian McCauley: I feel like taking a risk today, Todd, so I'm good with it.

Ethan Young: Good.

Todd Miller: Good deal. Well, Ethan and I will alternate asking questions. Ethan, I'll let you ask the first one.

Ethan Young: Alrighty, question one. Let's say you're trying to survive a zombie apocalypse. What is that, or who is that one person that you definitely want to have on your team?

Brian McCauley: That's a really good question. I would say, and I'm not sure of his name, but he is the Navy SEAL Team six commander. That was the commander during the Captain Phillips deal. But they all had that. He had to pick the right time to take that shot when both boats were going up and down. Dude had a lot of a lot of courage, and that's the kind of cat I want in my corner. I want someone who won't give up.

Todd Miller: We had someone once said their grandmother, that was a good answer, too, but that's great. Question number two: at the end of your days, what do you want to be remembered for?

Brian McCauley: A good husband, a good dad, somebody that left something behind that mattered to people and somebody that was willing to help people, even when it may not have been in their best interest.

Todd Miller: Good answer, good stuff.

Brian McCauley: Now I'm counting these questions too, so you don't slip another one in on me by the way. Just so you all know.

Todd Miller: Okay. We seem to have some technical difficulties, so I'm going to step in with the next question. I'm glad you're keeping track, Brian. We might try to sneak an extra one in, you never know. But I have to ask you. Okay, this question I like too. Which do you prefer, the top or bottom half of the bagel?

Brian McCauley: I'm not a big bagel guy. I can't tell you I've ever ate a bagel, to be quite honest with you. But I can, I can characterize. I'll compare it to muffins. I'm a muffin top guy, so I got to imagine I'd probably be a bagel top guy.

Todd Miller: Probably some similarities there. I think that makes sense. Well, let me ask the next question then. We'll see if we can't get Ethan back. This question we like asking because we're kind of you know, we kind of try to focus on new stuff and big stuff that's happening in the industry and in our lives. But can you think of a product or service that you've purchased, you know, maybe in recent memory that was a real game-changer for you, sort of a where have you been all my life-type product?

Brian McCauley: I can't because I haven't purchased it yet, but I've seen something here in the last couple of months that I think would be a really, really good tool for me. I've got to imagine for other people as well. We talked about time and territory management, you know, and that breaks down into a calendar task list and your calendar. And your notes, I'm sorry. And I'm very, I'm an Outlook guy for my calendar or my task list, but I'm still old fashioned with notes. I want to put pen to paper. And I came across the product called Rocketbook, and it's a paper notebook with reusable pages, a special ink pen, that you can write off of it and QR code at the bottom. So you make whatever note you want, you scan that code and your notes, your actual notes show up as a PDF in your phone. And I've wanted to try that because I think it's kind of cool. The only, my only hesitation is I'm left handed and left handed people in your audience already know what I'm going to say, we tend to smudge ink as we write. We go right across with our palm what we just wrote, and a lady let me try her Rocketbook and I smudged the ink a little bit so if I could find a fine tooth Rocketbook pen, I'll be a locked and loaded cat. That seemed like a really cool tool.

Todd Miller: They are pretty neat. I've got one and I'm right handed, so I don't fight that issue. But yeah, it is very useful. And I found it really helpful for, you know, if I have to draw a drawing, maybe a detailed drawing or something, it just works really well for that. And you immediately get a PDF you can send to somebody and yeah, it's pretty cool stuff.

Ethan Young: Alright, next question. I guess, last one you know, we're kind of going breakfast food with bagels and all that pop tarts and all that. But here's another food question. What's your favorite meal?

Brian McCauley: It's changed over the last couple of years. I'm a real big grilled, fresh fish guy right now. So I would have told you pizza a couple years ago. But now I'm going to have to tell you, down in Panama City Beach at Schooner's, their grilled or blackened grouper tacos. If you have a chance, dude, and you go down to Schooner's, do try them blackened grouper tacos. You don't get any better grouper than you do down in Florida.

Ethan Young: Sounds great, yeah.

Todd Miller: Amen, good stuff.

Brian McCauley: And occasionally, if you can get you a grouper taco, put a pepperoni or two in it, it helps to add a little flavor to it as well.

Todd Miller: Hey, that'll add flavor. Pepperoni will add flavor to anything. I love it. Next to last question, what is a book you've read that had a significant impact on you?

Brian McCauley: I like, I really like the book by Chris Voss, V-O-S-S, Never Split the Difference. If you haven't read it, I would highly encourage you to get it. He was a hostage negotiator for the FBI and actually the lead negotiator for the FBI at one time. Once he retired, he asked himself, I wonder if there's any correlation to negotiating a hostage release and negotiating a business deal. And so, there is. So he'll tell a story about a hostage negotiation release and then tie it into a business case. It's a really, really good book. There's a lot of good information to take outta there. I see it on my shelf right there. I probably get 45 little Post-it notes sticking out the top of it because that's how I do my thing. I'll write something, stick a Post-it note, go back and either reread it or build into a presentation. And it's a really, really good book.

Todd Miller: I will check that out.

Ethan Young: Yeah.

Brian McCauley: Thank you.

Ethan Young: Alrighty, last question. Do you have a skill or a hidden talent that people don't know about? And if you do, what is it?

Brian McCauley: I don't know if it's either a skill or a talent, but I used to play drums when I was a younger man and I don't anymore. And not a lot of people know that. I actually thought about buying a drum set during COVID because I wasn't doing anything, weren't going anywhere. Might as well pick up the drums again, but maybe in a little band or two, you know, nothing real serious. But my hair was a lot longer then. But you could tell I wasn't a serious drummer because in college I needed money to go to Fort Lauderdale on spring break. So I sold my drum set and I got the money to go down to Fort Lauderdale and I haven't picked up a drum stick since. You know, I had my priorities. Maybe they were jacked up, I don't know.

Todd Miller: Good stuff. Well, a few episodes ago, our guest was Jared Ribble, who was a professional drummer for a lot of years with a lot of bands and stuff.

Brian McCauley: Cool.

Todd Miller: So, good guy. Well, Brian, thank you again. This has been great. And I do encourage folks to check out your articles in Pro Sales and Remodeling Magazine. You always have great stuff. Just the other day I shared one with our entire sales team. But for folks who may want to get in touch with you, how can they most easily do that?

Brian McCauley: Yeah, I feel really bad that we've been talking about preparation and planning all morning and I was going to hold up the piece of paper with the QR code for my LinkedIn and Facebook, and I never printed it out this morning. So, dagnabit. I didn't think about it until 10 minutes ago when you said that. I said, Can I act like my camera's broke or something and go off scrambling around? I'll say, you can go to my website, it's brianthesalesguy.com. Brian with an I, thesalesguy.com. Email address is brianthesalesguy@gmail.com. And you can look me up on Facebook or LinkedIn. You may want to put Brian McCauley and Louisville, Kentucky after it and if I pop up there too, but I'd love to connect with anybody. I throw all my articles on social media, you know, what am I doing? Where am I at? So, yeah, I'd love to connect. They might want connect with me.

Todd Miller: Good stuff. And we will put your contact information in the show notes as well.

Brian McCauley: Cool cool.

Todd Miller: So I do have to report we were all successful on our challenge words. Good job, guys. I had the word football, which I managed to work in. Ethan, you had?

Ethan Young: I had Pop-Tart, which was a little clumsy, but I feel like that was the best spot to put it in, so.

Todd Miller: And Brian was our overachiever. He worked his word in a couple times. Your word was?

Brian McCauley: Pepperoni.

Todd Miller: Good job.

Ethan Young: Yeah.

Todd Miller: Hey, fun time, guys. This has been great. Brian, thank you so much for your time. I enjoyed this.

Brian McCauley: Hey, I appreciate it, guys. Thanks for having me.

Ethan Young: Yeah, absolutely.

Todd Miller: And I want to thank our audience for tuning in to this very special episode of Construction Disruption with Brian McCauley, the Sales Guy. Please watch for future episodes of our podcast. We always have great guests. Don't forget to leave a review, please, on Apple Podcasts or YouTube. Till next time we're together, keep on disrupting, keep on challenging, looking for better ways of doing things. And don't forget to have a positive impact on everyone you encounter. Make them smile, encourage them. Simple, yet powerful things we can all do. So God bless and take care, this is Isaiah Industries signing off.

Intro/Outro: This podcast is produced by Isaiah Industries, a manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building products.