Whether you run coaching groups, workshops, leadership programmes or team sessions, facilitation is a skill that goes far beyond delivering content. In this episode, Joanna is joined by facilitation specialist Tom Cleary to explore what really helps people feel safe, engaged and ready to learn. Together they discuss the subtle shifts that can transform the way you hold a room - from embracing silence to creating genuine psychological safety and looking after your own wellbeing as a facilitator.

Timestamps

00:00 - Meet Tom Cleary

03:37 - Coaching to Groups

05:18 - Energy & Recovery

07:18 - Training vs Facilitation

09:18 - Creating Psychological Safety

13:37 - Common Workshop Mistakes

18:05 - Structure, Silence & Confidence

28:11 - The Human Side of Facilitation

Whether you’re leading a workshop, coaching a group or facilitating a team meeting, this episode is a reminder that your presence often matters more than your perfection.

Check out Tom's website

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Tom's Podcast: The Human Side of Facilitation

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Today I am joined by Tom Cleary, who is a group work specialist,

2

wellbeing geek, and host of The

Human Side of Facilitation podcast.

3

Tom has spent over 16 years

working with groups as a teacher,

4

trainer, and facilitator, and

developing others who do this.

5

His work focuses on creating

psychologically safe spaces where

6

people can learn, reflect, and

have conversations that matter.

7

I invited him onto this podcast because

I know many of my audience already

8

facilitate groups, workshops, leadership

trainings, team sessions, or they want to.

9

And I know that there is a real skill

involved in moving from one-to-one

10

coaching into group spaces without losing

the depth, safety, and human connection

11

that make this work so powerful.

12

So today, we're gonna talk about

what makes facilitation work,

13

what newer facilitators often

miss, and how to hold a room with

14

more confidence, care, and skill.

15

So Tom, I'm so excited

for this conversation.

16

I gained loads from our work together,

and even from the conversation

17

we just had before I hit record.

18

It's always super helpful.

19

So do tell me what drew you into

facilitation, and what do you think

20

people misunderstand about it?

21

Tom: Thank you, Jo.

22

It's so nice to be here.

23

I came into it through teaching mostly.

24

And I, I often say it's quite an odd

role for me to have because I have, or

25

maybe had, really high social anxiety,

so talking to strangers or people

26

was an absolute no, even one-to-one.

27

But actually, what I love is seeing

the way that, group dynamics play out

28

and people talking with each other.

29

And we were saying just now, my brain

enjoys a problem, a challenge, and there

30

are many of them within this sort of work.

31

So coming in through teaching,

and then becoming a trainer.

32

And I did lots of mentoring

for teachers, trainers.

33

I was NQT mentor, head of teaching and

learning, so had that background in it.

34

And it's just something I think

is, a really interesting tool.

35

It's often underused.

36

Or people who would be great at

doing it misunderstand bits of it,

37

and therefore we don't get to see

the benefits of them coming into

38

a room and working with a group.

39

So I just find the entire thing

fascinating, to be honest.

40

Jo: Yeah.

41

And I love that because I remember

when I trained as a coach, and I

42

said, "I could never do training or

group facilitation because I'm shy.

43

I would not be able to

do that type of thing."

44

So it's so interesting that you

had a kind of similar experience.

45

And actually, I think it can

be a benefit because you can

46

really feel maybe empathetic.

47

You can really sense what's

going on in the room.

48

You can use those skills that you've

developed, to help that group really bond.

49

Tom: Some people are surprised by

quite how many people who are at the

50

front of a group or on a stage will

score really highly for introversion,

51

neurodivergence, shyness, anxiety.

52

There's someone I met, a couple weeks ago,

and she was saying when people see her

53

on a stage at a conference and talking

and holding a group, very outgoing,

54

extroverted, but the moment there's a

break, she'll disappear and recharge.

55

At end of the day, that's her done.

56

The ability to see what that's like

from somebody who's in that group and

57

to help them feel comfortable, it brings

so many amazing skill sets back in.

58

And this is what I meant by people who

maybe they don't see themselves as being

59

somebody who could do that often make the

best ones out there, from what I've seen

60

Jo: So lots of my audience are great

coaches one-on-one, but they maybe feel

61

nervous or less confident in groups.

62

What changes when you move from one-on-one

coaching to holding a whole room?

63

Tom: It's almost what we just said on

steroids a little bit because coaches

64

have refined this amazing skill set

of being able to really tune in with

65

people, hold that space, notice little

bits of body language or tone of voice.

66

And then when they go into a group,

that's on overload because suddenly

67

they go from one person to everyone's

giving you this enormous information.

68

And whereas in one-to-one you

can go, "This is really useful.

69

I can adapt to that, hold that, pause,

whatever I need to do with it," you're

70

thinking, "Well, now I've got 15, 20,

30, 40, 50 people throwing it at me.

71

Where on earth do I go?"

72

So I see a lot of coaches who

have this amazing skill set.

73

It- it's almost like the volume's

up too loud when they go into

74

a group for the first time.

75

And my work is often about, how do we

lower that down so that you can be more

76

selective on what you pay attention to?

77

So somebody is, doing something

which is pulling you away, you don't

78

get sidetracked too much with that.

79

But this information

overload is quite big.

80

And I think also there's an ability to

be able to trust the group a lot to do

81

a lot of things for you and with you.

82

And that can feel quite scary, and often

people try and take back a lot of control

83

and hold things quite tightly, and which

they wouldn't normally do one-to-one.

84

And it's about thinking about, how do

you put all those skills in one-to-one

85

back into the group and allow control

back with a larger number of people?

86

Jo: Yeah.

87

Totally.

88

And I always used to be a bit confused

why I was exhausted on a Tuesday

89

afternoon, 'cause I hold pretty much

back-to-back group calls on a Tuesday,

90

and I just didn't realize that you

do need recovery time, 'cause that's-

91

a lot of people's energy and emotions

and maybe just, even just showing up,

92

to hold that many people and having

to be on your A-game and energetic

93

and all of that kind of thing.

94

So I didn't h- really realize, and I

probably still don't, 'cause I still just

95

try and finish my group and carry on with

my life, the emotional toll and energetic

96

toll that group work can have on you.

97

So tell me more about that.

98

Why does that happen, and how are we meant

to recover after these group interactions?

99

Tom: It's something which I learned

the hard way because I came into, I

100

do a lot of work in the wellbeing and

mental health space because I left

101

teaching due to a very severe burnout,

and I now have to be very mindful of

102

that and not giving too much of myself.

103

So I do a few different things here.

104

I will make sure that I get up

into a session so that I'm not

105

being putting my nervous system too

quickly into something uncomfortable.

106

I will move into it bit by bit.

107

I will then make sure that I

take mini recoveries during a

108

working day, and that might be

109

So at a conference recently, I warned

the, team that I was working with, "I'm

110

here to help you, but for at least 20

minutes during the conference, I will

111

walk out, go to my car, hide away, and

speak to nobody, because I need that to

112

be present for you in the afternoon."

113

And then rather than going

straight to the next thing, I

114

will process, I will decompress.

115

I sometimes meditate for just 30 seconds

just to re-regulate what's going on, and

116

I have set things that I'll do with that.

117

I also have colleagues that I will

talk to to help me to process things.

118

Because it's an odd thing, we … A

lot of coaches, therapists, counselors,

119

there's structured supervision that

we have to do this sort of thing.

120

But often with group work, it's putting

things in place for ourselves for whatever

121

we need, talking out loud, reflective kind

of journaling or writing, or just mental

122

processing space, and being quite rigorous

in making sure that's being done as well.

123

Jo: So please answer the, age-old

question of what's the difference between

124

training, facilitation, and coaching?

125

Tom: So this goes into my love and

hate of labels because, labels can be

126

super useful and super restrictive.

127

And I was asking somebody recently

this question 'cause I'm often on

128

the other side of the podcasting,

I'll be asking the questions.

129

But, I said to her, "Of those

different labels, which ones are you?

130

Are you an amalgamation of them?"

131

She went, "I don't really know."

132

And that's fine not to know.

133

If we look at traditional,

definitions, training is normally

134

helping to impart some information

that you know and the group don't.

135

Then you've got coaching normally

focused on the personal development

136

of the person or the group.

137

And facilitation is normally either

task-focused or outcome-focused, or your

138

main focus there is to enable conversation

between the different people in there.

139

In reality, the lines blur massively, and

most trainers I know will also facilitate.

140

They will use coaching questions,

they will mix between the two.

141

And the best thing is thinking more

about, I think, what am I trying to

142

get out of the group at this point

here or enable them to do, and what

143

set of tools do I need to use from

that, rather than what label do I give?

144

That's what I tend to see instead.

145

Jo: Yeah.

146

I love it.

147

And I do think it blends.

148

One minute I'm doing the training, next

minute I'm doing the group coaching,

149

next minute I'm doing facilitation.

150

Yeah, I think- for sure.

151

So if you are planning a event of some

sort, either online or in person, what's

152

the first thing we should be doing to

prepare ourselves or prepare that group?

153

Tom: I think the preparing ourselves bit

gets missed out quite a lot, I think.

154

And just being able to, where possible,

be in that session online or in person

155

a bit before the group arrives so you

can settle yourself down a little bit.

156

But also so that as people arrive,

the session starts so much earlier

157

than the official start time.

158

And just being able to greet

people, notice what the dynamics

159

are in that room as well.

160

Something I do a lot with online

sessions is I have a resting something

161

face where if I'm concentrating,

I look very unapproachable.

162

And if somebody comes onto the session

with camera off, although I mentally

163

know that they're probably there,

my face doesn't react like that.

164

So I've trained myself to the moment

somebody comes in, to go into my more

165

kind of approachable, smiley, welcoming

mode as I would do in real life, in

166

order to set that sort of thing up.

167

And then monitoring, are

people talking in person?

168

Are they doing it in

chat box if it's online?

169

What's the feeling in that

room at the beginning?

170

Because that tells me so much about

what's gonna happen when we start,

171

and it's something that we often miss.

172

Often we're so busy prepping the content,

we forget to go back into the person mode.

173

Jo: I went on a Zoom yesterday with

somebody else, and they had some sort

174

of holding thing on their Zoom, which

was like a slideshow, and lots of

175

people do amend that, don't they, to

say, "Welcome- and things like that.

176

So yeah, I need to write myself a note

'cause I currently have nothing like that.

177

Tom: There's always something we're

all doing differently all the time,

178

Jo: oh, yeah, exactly.

179

So what helps create psychological

safety within a group without making the

180

session feel too serious or too slow?

181

Tom: It's funny 'cause I associate,

I will call it psych safety, 'cause

182

my speech impediment often trips

on psychological quite a lot.

183

So I link psych safety with warmth

rather than with heaviness, but I also

184

see it go the other direction a lot.

185

And for me, it's the more human we

can be, it creates that, that safety.

186

When you have people who are trying to

be the expert in all things holding a

187

group, and people can pick up on that.

188

If you don't know something

but you claim to know it, that

189

drops it down really quickly.

190

If you state to the room that you're

happy to be challenged, but then you get

191

prickly when you get challenged, it tells

the group a lot about breaking it down.

192

I was running a session for people

recently on, creating psych safety

193

in their teams, and they all focused

on the policies and procedures.

194

It's the interaction step by step.

195

Each time somebody questions something,

how you interact back with them.

196

And the fact that they can know that you

are a human being who is fallible, you

197

will make mistakes with things, as long

as they've bought into your authority as

198

to why they did this in the first place,

people are very forgiving when it comes

199

to you being not, perfect in that room.

200

And that brings the

pressure down off people.

201

If they go, this person can make

mistakes and get things wrong, so can I,

202

Jo: yeah.

203

I love that, that it's not just some

slide you do at the beginning saying,

204

"This is a safe space," but it's

actually in every tiny interaction

205

that you have, even before the event.

206

Before my events, for example, I send

a video saying … Sometimes I try

207

and go to the venue in advance saying,

"This is what it's gonna look like.

208

The building's here.

209

You walk up these stairs.

210

This is what will happen when you

arrive," and try and help people

211

feel comfortable so they know

what's gonna happen in the room-

212

Tom: I can't tell you how few people

do that, and how much it will mean

213

to people attending your sessions.

214

So somebody who has really high social

anxiety, who is neurodivergent, I've

215

done kind of four-hour recce visits

before going to a one-hour session.

216

I want to know what the parking is

like, what the room's gonna be like.

217

And so I try to do that.

218

But it's not often something we get back.

219

So the idea that you care enough about

your kind of, learners and your group

220

to do that probably has much more impact

than you might even realize in terms

221

of people feeling welcome, settled,

being able to be much more fully present

222

because their brains aren't taken up by

logistics and panic and unknown, and they

223

can get much more out of the session.

224

So I love anyone who's

doing that sort of thing.

225

Jo: Yeah, totally.

226

I think it's because I get nervous

about walking into rooms myself,

227

and I always think, "Oh, my gosh,

are we gonna have to do the pitch?

228

Are we gonna have to do this?

229

What's gonna be going on in this room?"

230

So I think I, I basically create

everything that I wish someone

231

would create for me- Yeah

232

but very rarely anybody does.

233

Tom: It is rare.

234

But it's improving, I think, a little bit.

235

Jo: So what are the biggest mistakes

people make when they are doing

236

leadership training or workshops?

237

Tom: There's two main things that

I see when people who are maybe

238

new to it or less confident do.

239

One of it is, the use or lack of silence.

240

So there's a rush to fill

gaps quite a lot, and that's a

241

whole topic in its own right.

242

But the one I think is probably worth

mentioning today is often there's so

243

much, focus on the materials, and they

really think about that, almost over-plan

244

materials, content, fit too much into it,

but they don't plan the relational stuff.

245

So they don't think,

"Well, what will happen?

246

I've got these beautiful slides.

247

What will happen if nobody speaks?

248

What will happen if they really

disagree with what's going on?

249

What happens if there's an

argument in the room that happens

250

while we're delivering this?

251

What happens if I suddenly forget

what I'm doing mid-session,

252

or if something breaks down?"

253

Or, something that's human.

254

And the people who have been doing it

for quite a long time, while we do prep

255

the content and we want things to look

really nice, we spend quite a lot of

256

time thinking about, again, that, it's

the human side, the relational side.

257

What happens if this goes

wrong, this doesn't go to plan?

258

I had this recently, in fact this week,

when a group, we asked in advance, "How

259

comfortable do you feel being open and

honest and discussing quite heavy topics?"

260

And they all scored themselves

really highly, but when it came

261

to it, there was absolute silence.

262

So I was able to pivot into,

"Well, this might happen.

263

I knew it could happen, so let's

move away from what I had planned

264

to do, to something else instead."

265

So focusing on the relational stuff,

but also giving silence and space

266

for people to think, to process, and-

Allowing yourself to feel uncomfortable

267

as well, because often we jump to the

rescue of a group and it means that

268

they lose out on things quite a lot

269

Jo: And in my group I've had to train

myself to be silent after you ask a

270

question, because everybody obviously

looks at each other "Are you gonna speak?

271

Are you gonna speak?"

272

So I now manage to pause for 10 seconds,

which feels like eternity in the moment.

273

And you desperately go, "Don't

worry then if there's no questions."

274

you're desperate to move on, and

it takes so much courage to be

275

able to be silent in that moment.

276

Tom: And also, it's really inclusive to

use silence, because what tends to happen

277

is people who process out loud will jump

very quickly to fill that gap, which means

278

the people who are processing internally

don't get a chance to do that, and

279

then the entire room pivots to what the

other people who think out loud go into.

280

So we lose out on a lot of things.

281

But sometimes I will say to people,

"I actually don't want anyone to

282

speak for the first 30 seconds."

283

And I put a time bond on that so

people don't feel like it's gonna

284

stretch out for ever and ever and ever.

285

But I want to give everyone a chance

to really think and process, and then

286

we think about how we share that.

287

Do we go straight to the group?

288

Do we go straight into

pair talk or small groups?

289

So it's using a range of tools so that

everybody's thinking style, learning

290

style, processing style gets a chance.

291

But silence is normally the

most useful element within

292

those different parts as well.

293

Jo: Yeah.

294

Gosh, I love that idea, and I've never

really thought about it like that before,

295

that, lots of people are reflectors and

they like to think quietly themselves

296

before sharing, whereas other people

definitely think out loud, I think.

297

Which one am I?

298

I have no idea.

299

I think I mix and match.

300

Sometimes I love, I learn a lot by

actually speaking, but I would be

301

nervous to do that, straight away

within a group environment if I haven't

302

had some time to think beforehand.

303

Tom: I tend to ask groups in advance what

their preferences are, and I'll do a kind

304

of a vote on whether they prefer to do

reflection or prefer to talk out loud,

305

and I can adapt the group based on that.

306

But I also point out while there's

a preference, that might shift

307

throughout the day or the session.

308

So even if you said, "I prefer

to reflect," if you want to jump

309

into a chatty group, that's fine.

310

I'll often on, online sessions give

people an option to do you want to

311

join breakout rooms, or do you want

to stay and just reflect first of all?

312

And if partway through you change your

mind and you're in a chatty group and

313

it's too much, you wanna jump out of that

back into the quiet zone, you can do that.

314

If you're in the quiet zone and you've

done your reflecting and you've got

315

five minutes left, jump into a group.

316

So the ability for people to

self-regulate throughout the day

317

I think is also really important.

318

Jo: So let's talk about the content

now, because I know most of us

319

overfill our- Yes … workshops.

320

So how much structure does a good workshop

need, and how much space do you allow

321

for things to emerge in the moment?

322

Tom: So when I was , a NQT, my first year

teaching, I was told quite clearly, "You'd

323

be an outstanding teacher if you stopped

trying to fit so much into a lesson."

324

And he unpicked it bit by bit.

325

He went, "Everything that

you're finding hard is because

326

you're overfilling the time."

327

And that was a massive changing point in

my w- teaching work and my group work.

328

It went from, okay to outstanding,

and then even now I have to…

329

I'll write a session and go,

"I'm gonna dump half of that

330

because I've overfilled it."

331

I tend to think of sessions

as being, like a room.

332

So whether it's from me or the group

or the clients I'm working for,

333

what are the absolute boundaries?

334

What do we have to get out

of this session, and what

335

are we not going to go into?

336

And then within that

room, it's very flexible.

337

So if I build the room in terms of the

hard boundaries and the must-haves,

338

where we move in that room can be

very flexible, and I will very happily

339

create a basic structure, but dump

it really quickly if I need to, as

340

long as I know what the framework is.

341

So often the structure is something which

can get in the way, so I have it available

342

to me, but I'm not scared to dump it.

343

But yeah, that container is there, and

allowing enough space for things to

344

breathe, for there to be reflection

time and time for people to disagree

345

or go off track, that becomes really

hard if we have lots of objectives we

346

have to meet in a certain timeframe.

347

So reality doesn't always allow us to

do that, but even then, there are tools

348

we can use to allow, thoughts to be

captured and done outside of session too.

349

So I think, yeah, as a framework

or a room is how I tend to think

350

about structure of a session.

351

Jo: I'm planning my next

event, and I always overrun.

352

So tell me more about what

a framework looks like.

353

Tom: So I would want to know what are

the absolute essentials that this group

354

achieves or walks out with or feels

when we finish this session or this day?

355

And it might be very few.

356

It might be just two or

three absolute things.

357

I think if I go home tonight and they

haven't done one of those things, I will

358

be upset or uncomfortable, unhappy with

things, and make those really minimal.

359

And what do we need to do in

order for us to get there?

360

And I'll plan a basic idea.

361

So I think we're going to have this first,

and then we'll do this, and then we'll

362

get here, and we'll end up over here.

363

So I'll know where I'm likely to go

with it, and the group may well do that.

364

But I also think, okay, if someone

has something they want to bring

365

into the session which is something

unplanned for, I'm happy to ditch that

366

as long as I know I'm still gonna end

up with those outcomes at the end.

367

I'll then have secondary outcomes,

which are, if we all go to plan and it,

368

we have that structure in place, and

we have a bit more time, I'd like to

369

also get a few more things done here,

but I keep the outcomes as simple and

370

small as possible so that I know that

whichever direction the group takes,

371

whether it's a really straightforward

route from opening to closing, and we

372

have more time, or they go the most

roundabout, convoluted, reflective,

373

discursive one possible, we still have

time to end up at that last point.

374

So I think really carefully about,

normally for me, it's three main

375

things I want them to think, feel,

and do by the end of it, and then the

376

rest of it is, preferable, but I'm

happy to throw it out if I need to

377

Jo: And so if somebody is destructive

or maybe talks too much and

378

takes over the group, what should

we do in those circumstances?

379

Tom: I think that, separating the actions

from the person's really important,

380

because sometimes we villainize the person

who's doing that, and then it becomes

381

very personal, and then our reaction

becomes one that's not as helpful with it.

382

But questioning what's causing that

behavior, and nine times out of 10, when

383

I ask people, at a break or lunchtime,

"What is it you need right now that's

384

causing you to, act in a certain way?"

385

It comes down to, "I don't feel I'm

being heard or listened to, so I'm

386

having to repeat myself or be louder."

387

And so making sure we acknowledge

points people are making, even if we

388

disagree with them, they go against

the group, and allowing outlets.

389

So I always use, I call

them question car parks.

390

So if someone goes off tangent or

there's not time, "You're very welcome to

391

write that down so we capture something

that is gonna be really valuable.

392

It can go up on the wall over there.

393

If you get a chance to

go to it, I will do."

394

But even the act of writing it and

parking it somewhere often allows

395

people to feel heard and valued.

396

And then breaking down things into pair

talk, to group work, to smaller groups.

397

Getting people to build

or, refute people's ideas.

398

"It's an interesting point, I wanna

find out what people think about that.

399

Who thinks that is

something we could build on?

400

Who has a counterpoint to that?"

401

So you invite people in.

402

But it's … The biggest thing for me

was I used to villainize people too

403

much and go, "Why are you doing this?"

404

It's oh, it's interesting.

405

And sometimes the person who's being

loudest is a symptom of the group.

406

Sometimes they are trying to rescue

you as their kind of group lead.

407

They think, "Oh, it's really quiet,

and Tom might be uncomfortable.

408

I'm gonna jump in and help him."

409

I always said to people, "I

don't need to be rescued.

410

I'm happy with silence.

411

If no answers the question,

absolutely fine, so there's no

412

need to rescue me at any point."

413

But just what's underneath the behavior

is normally the biggest thing for me

414

Jo: Oh, love it.

415

And while we're on that then, what happens

if very few people speak, and we've

416

created this, and we're trying to get

engagement, and no one's really engaging?

417

Tom: I really like those sessions because,

again, it tells me a lot about it because

418

there's an actor I work with who uses

the phrase, "Silence is rarely silent."

419

what, what is going on?

420

What are people thinking?

421

What is being avoided?

422

But that, then having tools to do that.

423

So I had this, a few days ago actually,

where we had a group who were very

424

quiet, and, I planned to do breakout

rooms and thought that's not gonna

425

work 'cause you will all sit there

in absolute silence with each other.

426

So I moved into a backup plan, which

was a guided reflection on thinking

427

about your day step by step, and

some kind of prompting questions

428

to go through, and then allowing an

anonymous form for people to use to

429

feed into instead, which was completely

anonymous for them, and suddenly that

430

went completely bonkers, and we had

all this information coming through.

431

But looking at the silence, what's

underneath it, looking at the

432

tools, normally stepping back a

little bit to, okay, so what's the

433

discomfort that's going on here?

434

And how do we use that, and how

do we make the most of that?

435

And sometimes even doing things

like, stepping back a lot from group

436

conversations to pair, just pair work,

and mixing up pairs quite a lot, and just

437

lots of written time to do things as well.

438

That tends to move a quiet group

to a much more engaged group.

439

Jo: Yeah, for sure.

440

I do tons of that in my in-person

workshops, where they write a lot to begin

441

with before, so they've had some chance to

reflect and think about where they're at.

442

And so what about those occasions, if I'm

thinking back to when I was an employee,

443

when you used to basically get forced to

go on some sort of training or other, and,

444

as now I'm looking back, the poor trainer

or facilitator, I feel bad for them now.

445

But at the time, you don't

even really think about it.

446

You just think, "I've gotta be here.

447

Let's get this done."

448

Tell us more about how we can

engage people in those moments when

449

they've been forced to go along.

450

Tom: So I'm weird.

451

I really like those people and those

groups who don't wanna be there.

452

I had a group, a few months ago

who I always ask the question,

453

"Who has chosen to be here?"

454

There were no hands up.

455

"Who's been told they have to be here?"

456

Every hand went up in the room.

457

Went, "Oh, great.

458

Love that."

459

Because it tells me that if I can

get something out of this for you,

460

that's gonna be even more beneficial.

461

So I will acknowledge it with people,

and I will say, "You may not have had

462

much choice in being here, but given that

you are, I wonder what we can do so it

463

does feel valuable in some way for you."

464

I have one session I do where I

say, "Does anybody feel like this?"

465

And it's a, an image of somebody doing

a massive eye roll, and then putting

466

on a smiley face over the top because

they don't wanna be there at all.

467

But acknowledging that, and then

thinking about, "Okay, because you are

468

here, what would you find valuable?"

469

And I had somebody week before

last who told me in the first few

470

minutes, "I don't wanna be here.

471

My boss has told me to be here.

472

I think it's a little bit

rubbish, to be honest."

473

Said, "Absolutely fine.

474

I'd love to know what that is, 'cause

I can guarantee if you're thinking

475

that, somebody else also is."

476

And he made a really good point about the

language and the people he works with,

477

and we talked about that as a group.

478

He's now booked me to come onto

his sites later on, because he's

479

"Actually, I thought it was rubbish,

but now I realize that maybe it

480

was just the positioning of it."

481

But resistant people are not a bad thing.

482

They're normally the braver ones

who will admit to stuff out there.

483

And sometimes people who volunteer

for sessions, are not always the ones

484

who have thought as much about it.

485

They might be there because

maybe they think less.

486

So it's not always as black or white,

I think, as people imagine it to be.

487

I think both groups have got

benefits we can tap into.

488

Jo: Yeah.

489

I love that you enjoy

all of these challenges.

490

Tom: It can crush me, but it's not

like I don't get affected by it.

491

I can come home and go, "Oh my

goodness, what on earth was that?

492

I'm completely exhausted by it."

493

But then kicks in and goes, "Oh, okay."

494

So this happened in a three-day

conference recently where it felt

495

really heavy the first day, and I

was a little bit squashed by it.

496

And then I went, "So how

do I turn that around?

497

How do we make day two go better?"

498

But yeah, I love a

challenge weirdly, I think.

499

Jo: So your podcast is called

The Human Side of Facilitation.

500

Tell us more about what

that means for you.

501

Tom: A lot of training I see when it

comes to facilitation, group coaching,

502

training, focuses on the logistics.

503

It's on the content, it's on the delivery,

it's on the timing and the framework.

504

Which are all really important,

but sometimes we forget

505

the humans in that room.

506

So every single person in every single

group, meeting, coaching session,

507

whatever it might be, is bringing

everything else in their life with them.

508

But also, you as a group leader,

whether that is a manager,

509

whether that's a leadership coach,

whatever it might be, you're also

510

bringing your own stuff into that.

511

So it's thinking about what's

behind everything that's going on.

512

And when people are,

struggling, what's behind that?

513

If they are quiet, what's behind that?

514

If they are resistant or

disruptive, what's behind all

515

of those different things?

516

If I'm feeling really overwhelmed, or

it's a topic where … I had one recently

517

where I had to do quite a heavy topic, and

it had hit me personally the day before.

518

I had to be really mindful of what do

I need to put in place in order to be

519

the best person I can be in that group,

but also for it not to squash me.

520

So I put in place, I was gonna

talk to somebody who was a peer

521

of mine at lunchtime so I could

process things a little bit with it.

522

But we so often try to be

almost non-human, both as group,

523

people coming into a group,

and the person running a group.

524

It doesn't work.

525

The human being side is probably

the most important part.

526

So when I talk to people about that,

we go down that pathway quite a lot.

527

Jo: Yeah, for sure.

528

And if we're therefore thinking about

activities, exercises, things we do to

529

try and help the group bond, when is that

a good idea, and when is that too forced?

530

Tom: When it serves a genuine purpose.

531

And again, what sometimes happens is you

can go to sessions where it's like all

532

the top 50 ice breakers, and okay, great

to have those ideas, but some people just

533

throw them in because they think they

need to have them, or they- they've heard

534

that we need to have variety in a session,

and therefore I would put them wherever.

535

Now, variety is really useful, but

there has to be a reason, and the reason

536

has to be bought into by the group.

537

So I think if I can't articulate why I'm

doing a certain exercise, explain to the

538

group as well, then I'd get rid of it.

539

But also, I- I'm calling it opting out

to opt in, where the more freedom we

540

give to people in, "You don't have to

do this, but I'd love it if you could,"

541

the more likely people are actually to

step forward and enjoy it quite a lot.

542

This happens a lot with creative stuff.

543

I was doing one recently which involved

quite a lot of drawing and people

544

kind of building models and things,

and I saw the group go, "Oh, no, I

545

don't, I couldn't possibly do that."

546

But you don't have to.

547

If you just want to write or to,

type something, absolutely fine.

548

Went, "Oh, I don't have to.

549

I'll give it a go then."

550

The pressure came off,

and they stepped forward.

551

So I think the opt out to opt in

wherever possible, but also is

552

there a genuine purpose that you are

aware of and the group can buy into?

553

Jo: Yeah.

554

For sure, especially drawing and

things, 'cause I'm probably that

555

person with drawing or Lego, and I'm

like, "Oh, God, I'm rubbish at this."

556

I- But as soon as someone would put me

at ease and say, "Don't worry, you don't

557

have to do it," I'd probably have a go.

558

So I know you have facilitated

lots of sessions on mental health

559

and maybe more challenging topics.

560

How best can we facilitate those type

of topics without it feeling too heavy?

561

Tom: I did an episode on this recently,

and, I find it really interesting that

562

there's an assumption we make as a group

leader that respect equals heaviness,

563

and often it doesn't at all, and it

can squash that humanity out of it.

564

So I was doing a session on

bereavement recently, and you would

565

think that had to be really heavy.

566

it doesn't at all.

567

and someone said, "I was grateful it

wasn't a heavy session because I wanted

568

to celebrate something of somebody

that I'd lost, and I wouldn't have

569

been able to if it weren't for that."

570

So I use, I can't swim, so this is

just a metaphor, but, I use a kind of

571

diving idea where it's a heavy topic.

572

We can go down there, explore, and

then come back up again and sit on

573

the beach for a little bit, and then

think about what that feels like.

574

And how did it feel to go into that

topic and then come back out of it again?

575

So the ability to step in and out, to, be

okay with having laughter and joy, even

576

heavy sessions, is really important to,

to include creativity in those sessions.

577

And I think sometimes we squash out

the joy and the human side because

578

we're trying to be respectful,

but they don't mean the same thing

579

Jo: And then we touched on this earlier,

but in case there's anything further on

580

this, what should we do after a session

to look after ourselves as the group lead?

581

Tom: I think physically

moving is important.

582

Where that might be that you

leave that space for a bit.

583

That if you're gonna be driving

home from a session, maybe do a walk

584

around the car park first of all.

585

But something where you're physically

able to move and shake things off,

586

because the way our systems often work

is we're in quite a high adrenaline

587

state when we're in these kind of

situations, and then we go straight

588

into the next thing, or we drive…

589

one of mine was four hours back home

recently, and I was like, "I'm glad I

590

did a lap first of all," because I needed

to burn off a little bit beforehand.

591

And I'm a big believer in,

there's some really useful kind

592

of one, two, or three-minute long,

meditations or reflective exercises

593

you can do and you can listen to.

594

There's one by Mark Williams called

the Three Minute Breathing Space,

595

and I got the script of that, made

my own recording of it, and would

596

listen to it after a session to

completely decompress from that.

597

And even if I've got something

coming up really quickly, there's

598

30-second ones you can do as well.

599

But I have to build them in,

practice them, and they have to be

600

non-negotiable in order to do that.

601

Jo: Yeah.

602

That's super interesting.

603

I notice after my in-person event

especially, that I have the huge

604

crash afterwards, 'cause I think, like

you say, it is the adrenaline- you

605

know, the lead up, being there on the

day, and then suddenly you're, like,

606

completely exhausted the next day.

607

So it's good to think about

ways of decompressing.

608

Anything in particular that's on your mind

that you feel like we haven't covered yet?

609

Tom: The one thing people could

do to change in the next session

610

is, if you can do, arrive earlier

and do less with that time.

611

Because we often, we arrive and

we use that time to check slides,

612

check notes, rehearse things.

613

Instead, sit where your group's gonna sit.

614

How does it feel to sit in those

other seats around the room?

615

What does the room feel like?

616

What are people like

who are arriving early?

617

Chatting to those people, and just

again, allowing yourself to settle

618

into that space, and seeing it from

the other people's point of view, quite

619

literally, rather than being so set

on, "I must know my notes, I must know

620

the structure, I must know the slides."

621

So again, being human in that early

bit of time rather than trying to

622

know everything in the content.

623

Jo: Oh, love it.

624

Thank you so much, Tom.

625

And where can we find you, and

how can you help listeners?

626

Tom: LinkedIn is the best place to,

to find me, which I will, drop into

627

your notes later, Jo, if that's okay.

628

And my website, which

again, tom-cleary.co.uk.

629

But I'll send it across to you so you can

pop them into the notes if that's okay.

630

But always happy to

have a chat with people.

631

I do a lot of, group mentoring with

people, one-to-one coaching with

632

people, but also some just reflective

practice when people want to just

633

reflect on things, chat things

through, decompress, have some

634

supervision sometimes with it too.

635

So I try to adapt what I

do to what people need.

636

And what I do is very collaborative.

637

I never want to talk down

to people or lecture people.

638

It's what is it you're doing really

well, and how can I help you to

639

build on your existing strengths?"

640

So people are well welcome to reach

out, pick my brains on things.

641

I'm hopefully quite approachable.

642

But also the podcast that

I've got, you can see what my

643

style is through that as well.

644

But thank you, Jo.

645

I really appreciate you

bringing me on today.

646

I hope it's something that's

useful to your listeners as well.

647

Jo: Oh, I'm sure it will be.

648

So Tom Cleary on LinkedIn, The

Human Side of Facilitation podcast.

649

And like I say, I worked with

Tom one on one and loved it.

650

Now, want to work with

him on every group I run.

651

So thank you so much, Tom, and it's been

great to hear your experience today.

652

Microphone (Samson Q2U Microphone):

Thank you so much for listening to this

653

episode of Women in the Coaching Arena.

654

I have a mess of free resources on

my website joannalottcoaching.com.

655

That's Joanna with an A

and Lott with two T's.

656

joannalottcoaching.com.

657

And I'll also put links in the show notes.

658

Let me know if you found

this episode useful.

659

Share it with a friend and

leave me a review, and I will

660

personally thank you for that.

661

Remember to trust yourself, believe

in yourself and be the wise Gardner

662

who keeps on watering the seed.

663

Get into the arena dare, greatly and try.