Shownotes
If you're looking to transition from a technical MOPS expert to a leader - or if you're an existing MOPS leader who wants to up their game - Jessica Kao is the person to learn from.
She built a career as an expert MOPS consultant before becoming an enterprise marketing ops leader.
Listen to this conversation and you'll quickly see: she's ridiculously good at the business side of marketing operations. She knows how to plan, how to communicate, and how to lead.
Thanks to Our Sponsor
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You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.
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About Today's Guest
Jessica Kao is Senior Director, Marketing Operations and Martech at Cloudflare. She has 10+ years of experience inspiring a nation of marketers through authenticity.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesskao/
Key Topics
- [00:00] - Introduction
- [01:40] - How Jessica defines the mandate of marketing ops. It is the accelerant to marketing. Everything flows through the pipes of marketing operations.
- [03:02] - How to determine if marketing ops is doing a good job. “Winning” means the CMO views you as a strategic partner and when you’re a bullet point in the board slide deck. But all projects should be aligned to the CMO’s initiatives and marketing KPIs. Marketing ops succeeds when the marketing team reaches its goals.
- [06:03] - Marketing ops shouldn’t just view themselves as the executor of another team’s strategy. Marketing ops can bring clarity, due to their position of visibility, the data we have, to spot trends, to provide feedback, etc. How do we make use of the data that we have to provide clarity to marketing leadership?
- [08:47] - Learning to be an internal advocate for the marketing ops team and navigating reluctance to be “self-promotional. ” The acceleration leap is the ability to translate what we do into something that provides business impact. Promoting the work we do is a by-product of bringing that clarity to the marketing team and focusing on the right things. Winning is not completing your tickets - it’s prioritization, doing the right things, providing clarity.
- [10:43] - The roadmapping process. Using an agile cadence, thinking of marketing technology like a product. Think about how you launch a project and create it. Quarterly planning and monthly sprints. Monthly sprints is the right fit. They have an “above the line / below the line” backlog. In a new company, shifting the balance from ad-hoc to roadmap. Being a consultant is helpful as it gives valuable skills in scoping.
- [13:54] - Learning to communicate incremental value instead of thinking of a project as needing to be 100% done and complete before delivering value. People get discouraged. Think of crawl/walk/run - crawling is still winning. This way people view MOPS as problem-solvers rather than blockers. Continuous delivery of incremental value.
- [15:46] - How to determine what should be prioritized. Jessica knows where they need to go in one, two, and three years, and that is her North Star. If you don’t have a roadmap, others will make one for you. Get buy-in from your boss and their peers.
- [17:23] - Translating features to stakeholder speak - what capabilities are you going to unlock. Quick-wins deliverables roadmap vs. plumbing/architecture/non-sexy roadmap. Jess has an external-facing roadmap of quick wins - these are “shiny objects,” which may seem like table stakes to MOPS. But if you position them in terms of the capabilities they unlock, then they can be positioned as wins. MOPS should communicate multiple wins every quarter. For the non-sexy plumbing, keep this on the internal roadmap - e.g., compliance. These things take a long time. Don’t keep communicating that you’re still working on complex projects quarter after quarter. When the capabilities are released, move them from the internal roadmap to the external roadmap.
- [20:12] - You can’t get money to fix what’s broken. But you CAN get budget to support new capabilities that deliver business value.
- [21:56] - Translating technical priorities into business objectives vs. translating business priorities into technical projects. This process happens bi-directionally all day long. Your job as a marketing operations leader is to translate up to leadership and down to your team - to provide clarity both ways.
- [24:25] - The multi-faceted skillset that a marketing ops leader needs to have. Not every leader has all those skillsets. Those that are missing, you need to hire.
- [26:09] - How to capture the long-term vision. Jess uses a project manager to capture it. She creates a library of “walking decks” for each company - a three-year roadmap, a yearly vision, a quarterly plan, wins. This holds true at every level. You don’t need a director title to be strategic.
- [27:44] - Developing communication skills as a leader. Jess learned and taught public speaking in grad school. Also learning through experience, trial and error, and mistakes. The marketing ops community helps each other out. Having mentorship, advice, and outside perspective is vital. Building a “board of directors” for your career. Find mentors who will challenge who you are and who will give you what you need.
- [33:15] - Overcoming imposter syndrome. Things get easier with repetition. But there’s always a next level and there’s always a new thing. The “freak out” period gets shorter. Emotional regulation is a top skill as a leader. You know how to figure it out.
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Transcripts
You're listening to RebOps
FM with Justin Norris.
2
:welcome to RebOps FM everyone.
3
:Today I am joined by Jessica
Kao, Senior Director of Marketing
4
:Ops and Martech at CloudFlare.
5
:Jessica actually earned her PhD in
Cancer Biology from Stanford, started
6
:her career as an in house marketer
and Marketing Ops Pro before spending
7
:five years in consulting at DigitalPi.
8
:And then she returned in house
to lead MOPS teams for enterprise
9
:companies like F5 and Cloudflare.
10
:And Jessica, one observation I'll
make since we've floated around in
11
:a lot of the same circles over the
past 10 years is I've always been
12
:impressed by your ability to communicate
your knowledge, build a platform.
13
:You know, you were always someone who
spoke at conferences like Marketo Summit
14
:and most recently at Mopsapalooza.
15
:I actually did a whole session
on communicating to the C suite.
16
:Which, consistently, you know,
I was looking on LinkedIn,
17
:everybody who attended that
session seemed to be blown away.
18
:And communication is an area where
I think many operators from a
19
:tech background often struggle.
20
:So, really glad you could come on today
and we're going to talk about, you
21
:know, building MOPS teams, roadmapping,
communication, and a whole bunch more.
22
:So, welcome to the show.
23
:Thank you so much for having me.
24
:It is such an important topic.
25
:It's a topic I'm super passionate about.
26
:So, I'm happy to be here and
we're going to have a lot of
27
:fun talking about communication.
28
:Awesome.
29
:So, why don't we just start off, you
know, as somebody who runs MOPS teams,
30
:I often just like to ask the question
about the mandate of marketing ops
31
:generally, because it can kind of
be a bit nebulous around the edges.
32
:How do you think about the
primary mission of your team?
33
:Well, I actually have a mission and vision
statement for my team, and I don't rule
34
:what it is off the top of my head exactly.
35
:But really, we are the
accelerant to all of marketing.
36
:And if you think about anything that
happens within marketing that goes
37
:out, especially the demand gen, the
go to market, most, most everything
38
:will flow through our marketing
operations and technology pipes, right?
39
:If you think about it, what
doesn't not a whole lot.
40
:Doesn't throw through
flow through our pipes.
41
:And so we are the pipes and all
of the data, all of the execution
42
:on the operation flows through it.
43
:So we see all, so we are in a very unique
place to be able to connect the dots.
44
:Between different parts of marketing,
but also marketing operations.
45
:As I said, at mobster Palooza and other
in general, my vision and philosophy is.
46
:You want the cmo to come to marketing
operations and marketing technology
47
:When they have a problem that they're
trying to solve for A lot of the
48
:challenges we can really help out.
49
:We are in a unique position to be
able to solve these challenges and
50
:to accelerate what marketing does.
51
:So talk about acceleration and from
that point of view, how do you evaluate?
52
:If you're doing a good job, if your team
is doing a good job, is it ultimately
53
:boiled down to the success of the
marketing team and achieving their
54
:objectives, or do you have a separate
Northstar set of Northstar KPIs that
55
:you look at as a marketing ops leader?
56
:I mean, our KPIs, I
mean, indirectly, right?
57
:I think there's two parts into
that question, which is how
58
:do I know that we're winning?
59
:And what are the KPIs
that I align my team to?
60
:Well, how do I know that we're winning?
61
:You're winning when the CMO views you
as a strategic right hand partner.
62
:You're winning when you are a bullet
point in the board slide deck.
63
:That's how you know that you're winning.
64
:These are, these are different
than the KPIs that we dock our
65
:roadmap and the things that we do.
66
:Those are two actually very
separate things, right?
67
:Because there's only so much we do.
68
:You can have the perfect marketing
technology systems, the perfect
69
:marketing technology architecture.
70
:We have pipeline goals.
71
:Those are marketing KPIs.
72
:Everything that we are doing are aligned
to the CMO's yearly initiatives, right?
73
:Like, so a lot of times, one of the,
actually the key points that I made
74
:during the session that I gave at
Mopsapalooza about translating GeekSpeak
75
:to C Suite is, Does everyone on the
marketing ops team know how, what they're
76
:doing on an everyday basis ladders
up to the key priorities of the CMO?
77
:But first, in order to do that, you
have to know, does everybody on the
78
:team know what the key priorities are?
79
:Right?
80
:Like usually there's a themes for FY 24,
you know, some companies is like, okay,
81
:we're going to supercharge demand gen or
we're going after the healthcare vertical
82
:or whatever the priorities of the CMO are.
83
:Ultimately, everything is pretty much
docked to coming from a B2B SaaS company.
84
:It's how are we driving more BDR
meetings, SDR meetings, which is
85
:ultimately going to go to pipeline, right?
86
:Like, how are we bringing
more high quality leads?
87
:How are we surfacing more higher quality
leads to the BDR so that they can
88
:create pipeline and they can create?
89
:All of those things, everything that we
do is docked into the priorities, right?
90
:Like, so how do we maximize the
utilization of our technology stack?
91
:At the end of the day, there are
things that are outside our control.
92
:Winning is just a different thing than
the KPIs that were golden measured on.
93
:Two elements to that, if I unpack
it, then there's the success at
94
:the KPI and functional level.
95
:And.
96
:What I'm hearing from you to some
degree, tell me if you agree with
97
:this, is, you know, marketing ops can't
really be succeeding if ultimately
98
:the marketing team is not succeeding.
99
:The business output that the team
is trying to reach, it's one team
100
:and one goal, it sounds like to me.
101
:Because if what you're doing is
laddering up to those goals, ultimately
102
:marketing has to achieve their goals
as well for marketing ops to be
103
:considered successful in that way.
104
:Do you align with that point of view?
105
:Right?
106
:And then I think there's two ways that
in general people interpret it It's like
107
:oh, you know, well, we don't technically
run the demand gen programs, right?
108
:They have a demand gen strategy We're
here just to execute it But actually I
109
:would challenge everyone to flip it the
other way around which is we can bring
110
:clarity We know what is best practices.
111
:There's a better way to let's say, you
know You're hosting a webinar and you want
112
:to understand like did we do the right?
113
:Did we do a good job of
targeting the right people?
114
:Demand gen will have their strategy,
but we actually have the privilege
115
:and the power and the responsibility
to provide clarity, to provide
116
:clarity on like, Hey, because all
webinars run through our fingertips.
117
:We have a very unique position
to be able to highlight and
118
:provide clarity on trends.
119
:We have the ability to analyze,
like, let's say, the 300 webinars
120
:that we're doing and to spot
the trends that nobody else can.
121
:And so, just because, like,
yeah, do we own webinar strategy?
122
:No.
123
:Do we, are we the ones that are
finding the speakers and doing,
124
:buying the list and doing the target
audiences and doing the partnerships?
125
:No.
126
:And I think people stop there.
127
:It's like, well, I put out the webinar.
128
:Hey, I programmed it.
129
:I put it on the platform, but there
is so much more opportunity to
130
:be viewed as a strategic partner.
131
:It's not even going extra miles.
132
:Like, hey, we have the opportunity.
133
:You just got to take the steps
forward to just go and analyze.
134
:We are sitting on mounds of
data that nobody else has.
135
:We can analyze all 400 of those webinars
and realize we see a trend that says when
136
:you do webinars that kind of look like
this and you're targeting these people,
137
:you're not getting the right engagement.
138
:But When we do this, and we really
showcase making this up, right,
139
:troubleshooting on these widgets, then
we really get engagement and we see
140
:a really high percentage of people.
141
:Well, et cetera, like finding engagement,
whatever that is, or a really high
142
:percentage of people attending on demand.
143
:These are the people who end
up being really engaged with
144
:the BDRs when they reach out.
145
:No one else can really do that analysis
except for marketing operations.
146
:So I challenge, you know, your
listeners out there to really what
147
:can you do that you're not doing
out that you're sitting on this, all
148
:this opportunity, what clarity can
you provide to marketing leadership?
149
:And that's how you become strategic.
150
:That's how you get out of the cycle.
151
:Of being back office cost center
to really providing business value.
152
:It gets a mindset of, of ownership.
153
:So I like to think of it and it's what
sets apart a really strong tactical
154
:team who can execute efficiently,
who's very competent, who knows their
155
:systems, but who still says, tell me
what to do from a team that's really
156
:perceived as that strategic partner.
157
:It's a kind of overused term,
but it really is what it is.
158
:In some ways that ties in then to the
other half of what you said in terms of
159
:what winning looks like, appearing as
a bullet in the board slide, having the
160
:CMO feel like you're the person that
she or he can turn to, I think that's
161
:hard for a lot of people because it
feels self promotional, it feels even a
162
:little political to aspire to that, and
mops people can be very self effacing
163
:and sort of, I'll just be here with my
tools in the background if you need me.
164
:And you don't shy away from that.
165
:Is that second nature to you or
is that just something you've
166
:had to train yourself to do?
167
:Where does that come from for you?
168
:It's a skill set.
169
:As I've come up in my career, as many
of you have been on this journey with me
170
:and seen me actually go up in my career,
it's these really important skill sets
171
:where it's the next milestone, the next
like acceleration leap is the ability
172
:to be able to translate what we do into
something that Provides business impact.
173
:I'm a moms person and a data nerd
at heart, which I'm sure many of,
174
:you know, it's not a bragging,
like, look at what we can do.
175
:We want to solve all your problems.
176
:That is the by product of doing all
the things that I just talked about.
177
:It's we're bringing clarity.
178
:I'm like, this is what's
actually happening.
179
:It's coming from a place of humility
and providing clarity and insight.
180
:It's a mindset, but it's also
a very different approach.
181
:What we do, our work every day
is ticketed, and it's very easy
182
:to get into this habit of like,
okay, how's productivity measured?
183
:Oh, did we complete the
hundred requests that came in?
184
:That's not winning at all.
185
:What it is, is about prioritization and
doing the right things and providing
186
:clarity around what those right things
are, because they're not gonna know.
187
:And so a lot of times I challenge
my team as well as, you know, in
188
:coaching and mentoring others, is have
we done our job to provide clarity?
189
:What the priority is and what the
cost of doing that instead of this.
190
:We have some work to go do before we
put it back on our stakeholders, right?
191
:We still have that responsibility
to provide the clarity.
192
:Prioritization is a constant theme
for me in these discussions about
193
:what makes Ops truly effective.
194
:Is that something that road mapping
process Yearly cycle, quarterly cycle,
195
:monthly cycle, what is the right
cadence from your point of view?
196
:Agile.
197
:Thinking about marketing operations and
marketing technology like a product.
198
:So I have a product manager.
199
:We think of what we do as capabilities.
200
:We do quarterly releases,
monthly releases.
201
:The goal is prioritization of
leads for the BDR so they can know
202
:which leads to focus on first.
203
:That is a capability that
we launch and release.
204
:How are we going to do that?
205
:Yeah, of course we're going to do that by,
you know, standing up, standing up lead
206
:scoring or whatever, you know, whatever
architectural thing that we're doing.
207
:So it first starts with Think about
how would you launch a product
208
:and how do you create a product?
209
:It's a mindset switch.
210
:Think about that.
211
:And then it has to be planned.
212
:So we do quarterly capability planning.
213
:It's all agile, right?
214
:Because stuff changes all the time.
215
:So we do quarterly planning, and
then we do monthly sprint planning,
216
:and then we have our plan of what
we're going to release each month.
217
:Two week sprints is too much for us.
218
:We kind of operate a lot more like
IT, kind of like what I call IT like,
219
:because we do agile with monthly sprints.
220
:That's about the right fit for us.
221
:We have a backlog.
222
:We have an above the line, below
the line capability backlog.
223
:So when someone wants to add something
in, It's really that decisioning tree.
224
:Is this an easy no, or maybe, and if
it's one of those, like, Hey, this
225
:comes from the top, we have to go do it.
226
:Then we go right to the, above the
line, below the line, and then that
227
:above the line, below the line is
always published onto our wiki or at
228
:other companies, we always had a slide
deck or a SharePoint site or something.
229
:So that people always knew.
230
:So when we do get those requests and
the conversations, you know, this
231
:sounds really easy, but like, it
has been like a three year journey
232
:across multiple companies for myself
to get down to a system like this.
233
:Typically I've been in organizations where
I come in brand new and we're at about 80
234
:to 90 percent ad hoc, 10 percent roadmap.
235
:Then I have goals around, we want to.
236
:right size that.
237
:So then the next level is
making this up this year.
238
:We want to get to 50 percent
roadmap, 50 percent ad hoc next year.
239
:We want to get to 80 percent
roadmap, 20 percent ad hoc.
240
:Those are internal.
241
:operational goals.
242
:So then we track those, we track, you
can call them story points, you can call
243
:them tracking hours, whatever it is.
244
:And we actually track
those pretty closely.
245
:And I think that actually comes from
my background of being a consultant.
246
:Fortuitously, the skill set that you
kind of gain unintentionally along the
247
:way is to be able to scope projects by
hours, because you spent so many years
248
:tracking a 15 minute increments of your
time, you kind of have a really good
249
:gut feeling of how long something takes.
250
:A skill set that I didn't really
No, that would come in so handy
251
:now, but it really comes in very,
very handy at my level and beyond.
252
:And that's, I think really
differentiated on what you can do.
253
:So for all of those folks that are out
there that are consultants, ex consultants
254
:wanting to go back in house, it's actually
one of your superpowers that you would
255
:be surprised how incredibly useful
it is because you can actually scope.
256
:really well, how long
something is going to take.
257
:And then the other thing about
prioritization, and this is something
258
:like a skillset that takes time to change,
which is some leader or someone would be
259
:asked, Hey, how long does it take to do X?
260
:And you're like, Oh my God, it'll
take like, you know, a year.
261
:And we got to switch our mindset
because we are mops people.
262
:We are pretty much tend to lean on the
perfectionist side of the complete side.
263
:Like, Oh, we got to get it perfect.
264
:Constantly said, she's like,
Oh yeah, I would take a year.
265
:You just kind of like,
okay, just kind of give up.
266
:I'm gonna go find a different way.
267
:Right.
268
:They don't want to really involve
you, but what you really want
269
:is you want them to involve you.
270
:They really want them to be your
stakeholders, to be partners.
271
:And so really thinking about
it's like, what's MVP look like?
272
:How can we communicate?
273
:Like there's a crawl, walk, run,
but let's just talk about crawling.
274
:Crawling is winning.
275
:It's binary.
276
:Did you, were you able to launch a new
capability that we didn't have before?
277
:Yes.
278
:Yes, and we're winning.
279
:That's a thing that happens a lot.
280
:It's a constant uphill battle to struggle
to prove resources, headcount, budget.
281
:But look at the way that we're talking.
282
:Could we say, Yes, and we can get
to 20 percent by next month, 40
283
:percent by the next quarter, 100
percent by the following year.
284
:We're literally saying
the exact same thing.
285
:People are going to be more
willing to view mops as
286
:problem solvers than blockers.
287
:This is powerful because the shift for
me and what you're describing is like
288
:the continuous delivery of incremental
value as opposed to the pursuit of
289
:a massive launch that's perfect.
290
:One of the things I've noticed,
especially, you know, working in a
291
:smaller company than you, and I've
worked in a lot of startups, perfection
292
:is an unobtainable and forever elusive
goal, and you'll torment yourself
293
:just trying to What can we do today
and what's needed most right now?
294
:So from that point of view of
like prioritization and that, or
295
:like that above the line, below
the line framing that you talked
296
:about, what's the methodology,
if any, that you use to determine
297
:what really should be prioritized?
298
:It's strategy and futuristic
vision of where we need to go.
299
:Like I know where we need to go
in one, two, and three years,
300
:and that's my guiding North Star.
301
:I carry a internal roadmap and
an external three facing roadmap.
302
:What that means is the externally
facing road map is quick wins is
303
:not necessarily tied to level of
effort, but I have several sayings
304
:that I try to coach my team on.
305
:And one of the ones is if you don't have
an opinion, they will make one for you.
306
:So if you don't have a road map and a
vision of where you need to go and why.
307
:Then you are going to succumb to all
of the tennis balls from all of your
308
:stakeholders telling you what you should
do One of my mentors said to me You have
309
:to get buy in from your boss and their
peers on your roadmap and i'm like what?
310
:This is my martech roadmap.
311
:Why why like why like they don't
know anything about mobs and martech
312
:Like why do they need to buy in?
313
:And then I'm like, Oh, that's because
if they're bought in on your roadmap,
314
:then that's the alignment to get
you the air cover that you need.
315
:Where do you think all those
requests are coming from?
316
:Just peers.
317
:And so when you need the air cover to be
like, I'm trying to do this over here,
318
:you're asking me to do this over here.
319
:What do I do?
320
:No.
321
:Then you're already aligned at the top.
322
:And then all it is is a
simple conversation around.
323
:This is what we're trying to do.
324
:Can you help us align your team?
325
:Great.
326
:We'll come and visit you on
your team meetings and meet with
327
:y'all to make sure y'all align.
328
:Done and done.
329
:Right?
330
:Because it negates the, oh my god,
the ground level of like, oh well
331
:these, we were getting pulled in
a hundred different directions.
332
:So that's why you have to have an opinion.
333
:But your opinion isn't these
features we're going to do, right?
334
:Like, Hey, we're going to
go integrate this ABM tool.
335
:Hey, we're going to go integrate
this new AI tool, right?
336
:You have to translate
that to stakeholder speak.
337
:What capabilities are we going
to lock for you by doing this?
338
:So then how do I create my roadmap?
339
:So I have an external roadmap.
340
:Every quarter I got to
be producing something.
341
:And actually I want to be producing
multiple things a quarter.
342
:Shiny objects.
343
:That, to you and me, is table stakes.
344
:Campaign structure
hierarchy, like, come on.
345
:But what does that do?
346
:That allows us to have
visibility and to be able to
347
:differentiate X event by Y event.
348
:Is anyone going to disagree with that?
349
:No, no one's going to disagree with that.
350
:Is that a win?
351
:Heck yeah, that's a win.
352
:Was it very hard?
353
:We don't have to tell them that, right?
354
:I keep an external set of roadmap.
355
:If you hear from my team every
quarter, These are the five
356
:wins that we had every quarter.
357
:Different teams are getting their
needs met every single quarter.
358
:That's awesome.
359
:What about the stuff, the
non sexy plumbing stuff?
360
:I keep an internal roadmap.
361
:Because what that does is an
external roadmap buys me the
362
:time to do the internal roadmap.
363
:Have you ever done consent, opt in,
compliance, checkboxes, back end plumbing?
364
:That stuff is not sexy.
365
:That stuff takes a long time to
untangle and to go set and go meet
366
:with legal and deal with lawyers
and all that kind of stuff, right?
367
:Those are usually like
9, 12, 15 month projects.
368
:When I release whatever capability in 9
months, in 12 months, and this is, you
369
:know, what I did in my last company,
We never talked about it until we were
370
:about to release something like we
are Decreasing loss of consent what I
371
:call I made this up like leaky consent
capture Doesn't sound pretty good.
372
:We were accurately capturing it.
373
:We weren't consent loss We
improved consent loss by 80%.
374
:Doesn't that sound good?
375
:I'll plug the talk on Mops the Palooza
where I was speaking with my old
376
:manager, who's now a CMO, basically the
intent of it was you can go into his
377
:brain and actually understand what he's
thinking, but what do I do want to know?
378
:How are the marketers going to feel it?
379
:That's another kind of saying,
and this is what I keep.
380
:Reminding my teams, how are our
stakeholders going to feel it?
381
:And so I want to be cautious.
382
:Like if I talk about, Hey, we're
going to release, you know,
383
:we're working on consent, right?
384
:Like how, how annoying is it when you have
to like working on rebuilding that nurture
385
:architecture, we're still going, right?
386
:It's just like, come on.
387
:You keep saying that you want to
make sure that you're delivering.
388
:So that's the quick wins,
deliverable roadmap versus the.
389
:plumbing, architecture, non sexy stuff.
390
:If you keep them both going,
you can basically time out.
391
:I throw enough shiny objects to
buy me the 15 months time that
392
:I need to like do stuff, right?
393
:And it was really, really
fascinating and interesting to hear.
394
:In talking to, you know, my mentor,
because we're mops people, the roadmap
395
:isn't broken and I gotta go fix it.
396
:And here's what's really interesting,
because he's like, I can't go, I can't
397
:go to the CEO and get budget and say,
hey, it's broken, go fix it, right?
398
:Like, because it's gonna be broken.
399
:Forever, but also like
it's going to be broken.
400
:Like how many times have you gone
into a company as a mob and like,
401
:Oh my God, everything's broken.
402
:Everything's broken.
403
:Everything's broken.
404
:We got to go fix everything.
405
:Yes, that may be true.
406
:And believe me, I am like,
yes, everything's broken.
407
:We got to go fix it all.
408
:Yes, that may be true.
409
:But your CMO can't go get money for that.
410
:What he can't go get money
for is, Hey, we're going to
411
:increase video productivity.
412
:Hey, we're going to get better quality
leads so that our conversion rates go up.
413
:It's essentially the same thing.
414
:The things that we're doing,
you gotta change that language.
415
:Because he's like, I can
go get you money for that.
416
:I can't get you money.
417
:I can maybe go get you money one time.
418
:One time!
419
:To go blow, blow up, you know,
like as a consult, right?
420
:How many migrations have you done?
421
:But also, how many migrations have you
done where like, It's just user error
422
:or like it's lack of strategy or it's
process and the people and like where
423
:you are as a company and tools, a tool,
there's lots of tools that can do the job.
424
:Some tools are better than others, but.
425
:Asides from those very rare things
where you're like moving an instance,
426
:migrating an instance, blowing stuff up.
427
:We got to focus on like,
what's the business outcome.
428
:And most of in marketing is all
tied to revenue and pipeline.
429
:So you just got to do some back
of the envelope calculations.
430
:How much conversion is
this going to increase?
431
:What percentage of quality leads?
432
:And it's a total swag.
433
:By the time you've done it enough
times, like, you basically can
434
:gut feel what this feels like.
435
:And that's a really
valuable skill to have.
436
:I love the passion and the point
of view that you have on this.
437
:And do you find that you are taking a
set of technical objectives that you
438
:know are right for the business and
then translating those upwards to the
439
:C suite, or do you find, or decision
makers, let's say, in the business
440
:side, or do you find that you're
taking a set of business priorities,
441
:bringing them down, translating
them into technical objectives, and
442
:then retelling that story upwards?
443
:Where's the initiating point,
or is it a mixture of both ways?
444
:All day long, bi directional.
445
:I'm an architect at heart, I see
architecture of systems in my brain,
446
:I'm sure lots of us nerd out like
that, but I know what a best practices
447
:architecture looks like and it's
pretty much, I mean, it's generally
448
:the, following the same principles.
449
:It needs to be scalable, it needs to
be global, it needs to have a fewest
450
:amounts of, um, failure points,
you know, just the common things.
451
:That is my North Star principle
as a MOPS and a MOPS architect.
452
:Carries with me the same,
wherever company I go to.
453
:And I think that comes from
my consulting background.
454
:It goes back to, what
is the CMO's key themes?
455
:Because that's what
he's promised the board.
456
:That's what he's promised
his boss, what they are.
457
:It's your standard tops down
and bottoms up approach, and
458
:you gotta meet in the middle.
459
:This is where we're at.
460
:This is what the key, um, are, right?
461
:Like, we're a big Adobe tech stack.
462
:Okay, where is it at?
463
:This is what we gotta do, and it's a of
where we're gonna meet in the middle.
464
:And translating back down because I still
have to translate back down to my team.
465
:I still have to direct my team
on where their priorities are.
466
:And like, it's not that the priorities
change every day, but it is agile.
467
:It's we got to move this up.
468
:We're going to move up
our X, Y, Z feature.
469
:This is bubbled up in Q1.
470
:We thought it was Q2.
471
:based on this conversation.
472
:My job.
473
:As a marketing operations leader, it's a
literally be that translate up and down.
474
:I'm sitting in some meeting.
475
:Oh, I hear the words.
476
:I'm like, Oh, I can project
where they want to go.
477
:And it goes back down to my team
into a technical and tactical way.
478
:Assess audit wherever we are,
bubble it and translate it back
479
:up to executive leadership to
provide clarity on where we're at.
480
:This is the tech debt.
481
:That we have, this is how
we're going to solve for it.
482
:I need this much money.
483
:If you want it in this timeframe,
my job is just to provide
484
:clarity, translating both ways.
485
:That's really my job.
486
:And that's how Marketing Operations
becomes that strategic partner.
487
:My other mentors used to say,
like, We're doing strategery.
488
:Whatever that means.
489
:Right?
490
:You know, that's the crazy thing about
being a Marketing Ops leader, and
491
:I'm not sure who else in marketing
or even in the business has to deal
492
:with this, but like, you have to
collaborate with the CMO to some degree
493
:on strategy, have input there, ideally.
494
:You need to then do the translation that
you just mentioned on a technical level.
495
:You need to be an expert
project manager and scoper.
496
:And then you need to break that
down for your team of whatever size.
497
:And help them envision
where they need to go.
498
:And that's a pretty deep stack of
abilities and talents that you need to
499
:always have switched on all the time.
500
:And I think you did a really nice job
just hitting all of the highlights
501
:of the key skill sets that you need.
502
:Every leader isn't going to
have all those skill sets.
503
:That's the inventory of skill sets
that you need to have on your team.
504
:So then you got to figure out which
ones you have and then which you got
505
:to go higher into to build that team.
506
:So that's why I have a
product manager on my team.
507
:Who can help me keep the things running?
508
:I myself can do a lot of
the scoping because of my
509
:consulting background, right?
510
:I can feel about how many hours this
is going to take or what skill sets we
511
:need or, you know, scope, like this is
in scope, out of scope, scope, creep,
512
:all of those things, like if you've been
a consultant and you've had that, but
513
:you need those skill sets as a leader.
514
:So you can direct the team
to where they need to go.
515
:I'm a big fan of
CliftonStrengths, that profile.
516
:And so mine is strategic and
futuristic, which is having that
517
:one to three year plan, having
that vision and being strategic.
518
:So I'm constantly in there, like moving
everything around like Tetris in my head.
519
:I am a terrible project manager.
520
:Absolutely awful.
521
:Everything lives in my head, so I need
someone to extract it out of my brain.
522
:So I hire other people who can do that.
523
:So you say literally in your head,
but do you have a whiteboard?
524
:Do you have a chart somewhere, a diagram?
525
:Like, or is it really this
one to three year vision?
526
:Like, do you document it in any way?
527
:Yes.
528
:It is in my head, and my product manager
pulls it out of me, and he makes it.
529
:At a smaller company, When I, when you
don't have the luxury of having that,
530
:then it should absolutely be documented.
531
:And I don't know if it was just at
one of my companies, a term, but we
532
:had this term called a walking deck.
533
:When I come into a new company,
I have a library of my walking
534
:decks that I need to go make.
535
:So there's my library of
things I need to go pull.
536
:For example, what is
the three year roadmap?
537
:What is my quarterly?
538
:What is my yearly plan?
539
:And this is going to hold true for
whatever level you are actually.
540
:So you might as well start learning
this now, because it'll take you
541
:10 years to go polish the skillset.
542
:You have to present what you're doing.
543
:You don't have to have a director
title, a VP title to be strategic.
544
:But like, I always have a walking
deck instead of saying like,
545
:Jess, what's your one year plan?
546
:Hey, what are we delivering next month?
547
:Hey, what are we delivering this quarter?
548
:Oh, what are your wins?
549
:Think about it for even if an
individual, think about how many
550
:meetings you have with your stakeholders.
551
:I want to do this.
552
:No, here's my plan.
553
:I start with what's the library
of decks that I need to have.
554
:I try to have like my yearly vision
plan deck, my quarterly planning deck.
555
:What are the wins quarter?
556
:What are we planning to do next quarter?
557
:Right?
558
:Look back, look forward.
559
:What about for like a brag blog when
you want to talk about annual reviews?
560
:What about promotions?
561
:You got to go present at
an all hands or an offsite.
562
:Those are all the same decks.
563
:If you think about it, change
in mindset, flip it around.
564
:It's less work, right?
565
:Cause you don't have to go make five
different decks and you're always ready.
566
:To hear you talk about these things,
a, the way that you communicate.
567
:You're going to have to be able
to express yourself around it.
568
:There's a confidence there.
569
:There's a charisma there.
570
:Is that something that That's just
how you communicate, or have you
571
:had to make yourself develop that?
572
:Because I had to push myself to do that.
573
:I'm comfortable, like, deep in the guts
of the machine, like, putting wires,
574
:switching them around, banging things
with a hammer, to be able to come up,
575
:talk about something that's a shiny
object that is useful to people, but it's
576
:like, oh, I know it only takes X minutes.
577
:We don't consider it a big deal.
578
:And managing that translation into
your brain constantly around how other
579
:people are going to perceive things,
and how you perceive them, and just
580
:having that form of self expression.
581
:How have you managed to cultivate them?
582
:I think that's a fantastic question.
583
:I'll split those into two parts.
584
:There is, I love presenting.
585
:I have been an oral presentation
consultant when I was in grad school.
586
:I went through a course where it was
actually teaching oral presentation.
587
:So it's just something
that I'm passionate about.
588
:I'm in the minority of the people where
public speaking is a phobia that's
589
:actually higher than fear of death.
590
:So there's that piece.
591
:But that's completely separate
than things like imposter syndrome.
592
:And I think those are
two very separate things.
593
:All these things that I've talked about
are basically learned through experience.
594
:A lot of experience.
595
:There are a lot of mistakes.
596
:A lot of trying and trial and error.
597
:And this is where it's about the
community that you're a part of,
598
:this community that you're fostering.
599
:It's about the really amazing tight
knit marketing operations community
600
:that you and I have been a part
of, that we help each other out.
601
:How many times have I said,
well, my mentor taught me
602
:this, my mentor taught me that.
603
:Every company has a board of directors.
604
:They're there to give guidance, hold
accountability, and to give advice.
605
:Outside perspective, and that
is no different in your career.
606
:So the same philosophy of you
really need to build a board of
607
:directors for you and your career.
608
:Getting a mentor is good.
609
:CMOs go take classes.
610
:You don't just all of a sudden
wake up and like, Oh, I'm so
611
:knowledgeable about that X, Y, and Z.
612
:Just like anything else, it's a continual
learning and growing opportunity.
613
:It's being very thoughtful about
building a set of mentors for you.
614
:It's a mentor that's going to champion
for you and who you are in your career
615
:and challenge you to think differently.
616
:All right, like one of my
mentors said, like, when you're
617
:interviewing for the job, what is
your next next job going to be?
618
:I'm like, I don't understand.
619
:I'm trying to figure out what I'm going
to do, like, in the next couple weeks.
620
:If you're asking me what my next next
job is, if you know what your next
621
:next job is going to be, Then you can
identify what's the skill set that you
622
:got to pick up along the way to get you
there So then that will inform you what
623
:your next job is and then you walk me
through like different scenarios, right?
624
:And this is when I was coming out of
consulting and back to in house and i'm
625
:like, I don't know what I want to do
and so Your set of mentors is going to
626
:challenge you to think differently, right?
627
:Like, a mentor isn't just here
like, Hey, let me give you advice.
628
:Let me tell you how I did it.
629
:So you can hear a bunch
of different stories.
630
:Cause that's typically
what happens, right?
631
:Justin, I want to hear about
how you were successful.
632
:And then you'll go and talk to them.
633
:Don't come and talk to me.
634
:I'm like, Hey, I want to hear
just how you were successful.
635
:And we're trying to collect
stories to data points.
636
:Well, if I collect red,
orange, yellow, blue, green.
637
:Then I can like figure
out what my choices are.
638
:I'm like actually let's flip that on its
head You want to find mentors that are
639
:going to challenge who you are and to
help you grow and give you exactly what
640
:you need And being intentional about
creating that board of directors and
641
:your board of director mentors are going
to change as your career grows You're
642
:going to add some you're going to drop
some Some of them will stay with you,
643
:some of them are going to be the right
mentor at that time, the right person
644
:during the right season, there's always
a season, and it's constantly evolving
645
:and changing, but that's one of the
key things, and, and you know what, the
646
:experience is going to teach you a lot,
because you're not going to go there
647
:knowing everything, and I remember, you
know, in the Marketo Fearless 50, we got
648
:mentorship and stuff like that, right?
649
:Like, and I always was like, how
do you get executive experience?
650
:How do you get the skill to become, like,
an executive presence, and like, how do
651
:I Be more strategic, like an executive.
652
:We've all been there.
653
:And I asked that question and again,
one of my mentors just kind of do it.
654
:And I'm like, what do you mean?
655
:You just kind of do it.
656
:I don't know how to do it.
657
:Three years later, I was
like, Oh, I understand.
658
:You just kind of do it.
659
:You just figure it out.
660
:Okay.
661
:All right.
662
:Now I understand.
663
:It didn't really make
a whole lot of sense.
664
:Cause I want to tell you, you just
kind of do it and you're going to.
665
:Listen and look at me like I don't
understand what you're saying.
666
:So you just kind of do it
because that is a byproduct.
667
:And I use the same analogy.
668
:I live in the Bay Area, Half Moon Bay.
669
:They have a pumpkin festival, right?
670
:Like whoever grows the biggest pumpkin.
671
:So if you're a pumpkin farmer and
you're trying to grow the biggest
672
:pumpkin, are you staring at the pumpkin
and trying to will it to grow bigger?
673
:No, you're not trying to do that.
674
:Data points.
675
:You're trying to like make sure the
soil has the right amount of nutrients.
676
:You're trying to make sure
it has the right sunlight.
677
:You're trying to make sure it
has the right water, whatever
678
:to make a pumpkin grow bigger.
679
:I'm not a farmer and I
don't have a green thumb.
680
:I killed all my tomato plants.
681
:So please don't ask me to grow anything.
682
:But you're not trying to
will it to grow bigger.
683
:You're trying to do all the things,
the byproduct is for it to grow bigger.
684
:So how do you get executive presence and
strategy of doing all the things that
685
:I just talked about and it will come.
686
:Do you, with the experience you've had,
the frameworks you've developed, the
687
:methodology, you know, someone listening
to this be like, all right, Jess.
688
:She's got to figure it out.
689
:And if she went and started at a
new company tomorrow, she comes in,
690
:she's got her walking deck, she's
got her system, like, she's on lock.
691
:Do you still feel imposter syndrome
going into a new, you know, first
692
:day on the job at Cloudflare?
693
:Do you feel that?
694
:Or does it dissipate with the frameworks
and the experiences that you've developed?
695
:Think about anything.
696
:If you've done something five, six, seven
times, it always gets easier, right?
697
:I'm a yoga teacher.
698
:I try to remind myself.
699
:If I go and take a Orange Theory
class, You're back to beginner.
700
:So great!
701
:As what I do, and the things
that I've done, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
702
:times, yeah, I feel pretty good.
703
:Guess what?
704
:The next level?
705
:Oooh!
706
:I don't know how to run a
cross company wide initiative,
707
:or whatever the new thing is.
708
:We're always going to
encounter new things.
709
:We're always going to be
a beginner at something.
710
:The time duration of like the
freak out period gets shorter.
711
:I don't have all the answers today.
712
:I got friends, I got this
amazing network of people.
713
:I'll go call y'all up and be
like, I've never done this
714
:before, can someone help me?
715
:Of course!
716
:I think you were the one that
gave me the Wokato ticket.
717
:The free ticket to Wokato.
718
:I don't know anything about that.
719
:Thank you so much!
720
:I went to the conference and I
learned all kinds of new things.
721
:Things that were completely over my head.
722
:If I had to go dive deeper to build a
roadmap, do I know how to do it today?
723
:Do I know who to go call?
724
:I'm going to call you and be like,
Hey, who can you put me in touch
725
:with that can help me learn this?
726
:What it does is it
teaches you how to learn.
727
:And do I still get
freaked out about stuff?
728
:It's like, deep breath, deep breath.
729
:Emotional regulation is one of
the top skills that you're going
730
:to need to have as a leader.
731
:Deep breath.
732
:Do I know how to figure it out?
733
:I know how to figure this out.
734
:I know who to go call.
735
:I know who to get people to
go introduce me to people.
736
:I don't have any problems
asking the dumb questions.
737
:I'm like, Hi, I don't
know anything about this.
738
:Can you help me and explain
to me like how this works?
739
:I'm taking on web ops
and ad operations now.
740
:That's new.
741
:First time I'll figure it out because
I have this amazing community.
742
:So It's a beautiful place to end it.
743
:Jess, you're amazing.
744
:I love hearing about this.
745
:I want to chat more in the
future, but thank you so much for
746
:coming on and sharing all this.
747
:Thank you so much for having me.
748
:It's my pleasure.
749
:I hope I have changed one life
today, and that's success.
750
:Speak again soon.
751
:Hey everyone, I want to
invite you over to the RebOps.
752
:fm Substack community, where
you can sign up to get rough
753
:transcripts, show notes, longer form
articles, and other bonus content.
754
:Just head over to RebOps.
755
:fm slash subscribe to get free access.
756
:I'd also love to know what you thought
of the episode, and to hear suggestions
757
:for topics you want to learn about.
758
:Feel free to leave a comment on Substack.
759
:Or send me an email at justinatrevops.
760
:fm.
761
:Thanks for listening.
