Join us as we dive into an enlightening conversation with Kara Tuttle, author of 'Drowning in Timidity.'

Kara shares her journey of writing her book during the pandemic, inspired by a LinkedIn connection. Discussing how women are socialized to be overly polite, she calls for a change in this dynamic by embracing assertiveness. We explore the fine line between assertiveness and aggression, why it's crucial in different aspects of life, and the potential pitfalls of timidity.

From setting boundaries in the workplace to navigating complex social situations, Kara offers actionable advice and relatable anecdotes. The conversation also delves into the importance of understanding and teaching consent, highlighting how assertiveness plays a key role in recognizing and respecting boundaries.

Get ready to rethink how you communicate and stand your ground, all while supporting other women in their journey towards empowerment.

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What's up? Skirts up, squad.

Did you just take my wine? I did.

It's Samantha and Melissa. I'm going to actually tell you guys how it is right now. It was so fun.

We couldn't even make it up. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna wear it in public.

And then she looks at me and she goes, that's what Jesus is for. We are about normalizing things that are.

Hard to talk about.

I was like deer in headlights. Skirts out, but keep your pant. Hey, guys, it's Samantha.

Oh, and Melissa, if you hadn't figured it out.

Yeah.

So we chit chat before we get into our recordings now. And people who pay the subscription get to kind of hear our befores and the chit chat after with our guests. And so that's where we forget sometimes.

To be like, oh, it's Samantha and Melissa.

It's like, oh, now we're live.

We are. Okay.

So we were sitting here going back and forth on like, what's our fail? We never fail. So then something came to me.

One of the things that we did that my family did over the break, it was Labor Day, we didn't have any plans, but like, I just woke up that morning and I was like, I want to do something outside. And our boat hasn't been working, so we haven't been able to go out onto the lake. And I, I love this summer.

And taking the boat out and just getting to float in the middle of the lake and tube and all that stuff. And so I just was like, I need time, water. And so we were like, well, what can we do? And Simon goes, well, we haven't kayaked this year.

And so we decided to take the kids kayaking. So we had Nora, the three year old Amelia, she just turned 10 during break.

And.

And Logan, who he just turned 14. So he. Or yeah, so he was 13 at the time.

And we did. Amelia and Logan both have their own kayak.

Yeah, it was a double. Yeah, no, no, everyone had their own kayak. Logan had a great time.

Amelia struggled for a little bit and she actually got stuck on the top of like one of the like little rapid waterfall things. And that was a little traumatic for her. Yeah. So she ended up actually losing her kayak and she was like stuck on top of the waterfall.

It was, it was stressful. It was very, very stressful.

But when we were getting packed up and getting ready to leave, Simon had the idea, he says, look, like, Ada died, what, like six months ago at this point? And he goes and you haven't been bonding with the puppies at all.

And he was like, and it's time, like you need to start making a connection with them because they're here and they're only two so they're gonna be here for a hot while. I was like, yeah, I guess you're right. Like, I just, I really haven't, like, I haven't spent a lot of time with them.

Like myself personally with them. I just haven't wanted to, which is kind of sad and that sucks for them, but working on it.

So he suggested that I pick one of the puppies and bring them. And I don't know why, but I gravitate towards the boy puppy, Madden. So we have a boy and a girl, Madden and Matea.

And I don't know if like I just maybe subconsciously haven't wanted to bond with another female. I don't, I don't.

Because of Ada.

Yeah, maybe, like, I don't know. But like Madden, he is a snuggle bug. Like he's the one that likes to snuggle and mate doesn't. So maybe that's the other part of it.

Like Madden likes to, to be attached to me.

He makes it easy to love.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, okay, well I guess we can bring Madden.

And so I kayaked with Madden on my kayak and this is like the kind where you sit on top of it so you like kind of have to balance. And so Madden and I balanced together on the kayak and did the rapids and he did great. He loves water. And so watching him swim and stuff.

He used Ada's life jacket and yeah, we spent the whole day with him on the lake and. And I really did bond with him and to where like I have found myself. We went camping. We talked about this in last episode.

We went camping and we were like, oh, we should bring one of the dogs. And we were like, I go, we should probably be bring Matea because I took Madden last time.

And then I like was just like shoulder slumped and I was like, but then Madden will be sad and then like he'll be.

Will you not take both?

We could have, but it was just a lot. Yeah, it was a lot.

The you also had those extra kids for living.

Exactly. And so actually we ended up not taking either of them and we took kya instead, the 13 year old husky.

Which actually makes sense that it might be kind of a little. She's a little laid. More laid back.

Yeah, yeah. She doesn't leave Simon's side. And just was just real chill and. And the puppies have been pretty mean to her.

And so we had the neighbor kids taking care of the dogs that we left at home.

And so it just made us feel a little more comfortable to not leave dogs that don't get along with the kids like because anything could happen and you know, it wouldn't be their fault. It's, you know, that would be traumatizing for everyone. So we ended up taking Kaya so that the puppies who get along, like nothing can happen.

Right.

So. So yeah, I caught myself thinking about Madden and his feelings and like, oh.

And so I was like, oh, I think it worked. I think we're bonding.

I'm changing my fail.

I think that was a long story. Sorry. That was, it was a great story.

It made me change my sale.

Okay. So ultimately, for some reason, on some level I had not connected with any dogs since Ada died.

And you know, Simon pointed it out and I have made an effort and I do feel bonded to Madden and I like his snuggles.

So I think it's beautiful that Simon could. Well, he waited for the right moment to say it too. He didn't say it like right after Ada was gone.

Right.

Unless he did and you just didn't left that part out.

No, I actually tried to. I think we talked about this last season. I actually tried to get rid of the puppies after she died. I was like, I just don't even want these dogs.

Like, yeah, yeah, no.

I think it's beautiful that he could approach you and be like, hey Sam, I think it's time that you kind of open up. Like, yeah, they need you and you need them. Yeah, I really like that. And you did. You heard it. You heard it.

I did. I gave it a try.

Yeah, it's like really hard and important part of a relationship is hearing the hard things and knowing that the person is coming from a place of love.

And yeah, you know what's actually kind of what also helped and it was, you know, we talk about this in our recording sometimes and I actually think it's like during the recordings that are coming out for season four that, that. What's that word? Synchronicity. Synchronicity, like when something is supposed to be like grabbing your attention. Like it pops up multiple times.

Yeah.

So Simon made, you know, said this shortly after I had a one on one conversation with Jennifer that you guys met at the last episode. The founder of Canine Assistant.

I was having a private conversation with her and we were talking about, you know, when the dog that we're really bonded with dies.

And we were talking about how I'm just struggling to bond with the puppies, and she just, you know, like, was very gentle about, like, you know, saying, like, you know, you got to give them a chance. It's not fair, you know, to him to not have that bonding. Because I think I had, you know, at that point feeling like I probably bond with him more.

And she was able to kind of, like, give suggestions on how to, like, connect with him. And I go, okay, so that was two people in, like, a really short period.

Be like, no, let's start spending time with them, and you'll have a connection, and you'll build a bond, and one of them will attach to you. And. Yeah. So it was just one of those things.

That's awesome. That's awesome.

Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah. What's. What. What did you change yours to?

So you being vulnerable and talking about the dogs, and then you brought up Kaya. It made me realize I have a fail of last episode. And actually, you heard it last episode.

But it's something that I struggle with all the time, is I have a discrimination against huskies.

Okay, you did mention that, like, what that is that. That's not the first incident that you've had with a husky.

No.

So the thing is, when I first moved here, Brett had.

Oh, Simon's dogs.

Yeah, well, he and his own. Honestly, Simon's dogs were good. No, they weren't, but they were not.

You're talking about, like, Yume and Falcor.

Yume is Brett's dog, and she's awful.

It was supposed to be his dog, but I feel like Simon took care of her the most.

Oh, Simon didn't live there.

Oh, that's right. He did leave Yume with. With him. That's right.

I. I thought it was always Brett's dog. But anyway, the point is, it was. She was not a good dog.

Waverly, who I had owned for at that point probably, like, 12 or 13 years, had never, ever been attacked by another dog. And then you May attacked her twice.

And the first time, like, she was in so much shock that she was just shaking for, like, probably a good hour afterwards. And she. Which one you May attacked? Waverly.

Waverly. Which.

Which. Which of your dogs was the one.

That ended up hiding in the closet for a long time?

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. Everywhere I moved, he liked to find the closet wherever we lived, and that was his house. He just loved being in a closet. But anyway, so.

And then, yeah, they were just really badly behaved. And here's the thing. I know because, because like I also have a pit bull. Like I know that dogs get bad raps and it's not their fault. It's just not.

And I know huskies have a lot of energy and they need to be with the right family. But I think that's what made me mad at the dog park is I feel like you, you need to know like be educated about the dog you're gonna get.

Yeah.

Like huskies are not bad dogs. They're not bad dogs. And I know that. And so I just wanted to kind of say I'm sorry for being like. And he was a fucking husky.

Wow.

I think we all do that. I like, I don't know. I definitely discriminate against small dogs.

Actually recently I was looking, I don't, I ended up on a apartment website and you know how they list like oh, we love your furry animals, dogs welcome or whatever. But then they have this like long ass list of dogs that aren't accepted. And so I was like, okay, well let's see this list.

And I'm reading through it and of course it's like nothing with pitt or pit mix, nothing with shepherd or shepherd mix.

And then there was like some reasons that I'd never heard of before and then I started cracking up because then it started moving into like smaller dogs and it like specifically.

Really?

Yeah, it specifically mentioned a basinji and I was like, that's a really random dog to decide, like oh, not a basenji. Like one they're like hardly ever owned. And to like, I like, I don't.

Know, I think they are kind. I think they do have like a thing for being very like, what's the word? Aggressive. But more I guess I would call it loyal to my owner.

I don't see a fudgeing Chihuahua on it. And I feel like they attack people more than any big dog. Like I know.

And then see that's the other thing. And I don't really, I do not have an affinity for small dogs.

I like, I don't like small dogs. They got puntable size and I don't.

Like, I, I but I really do 100% believe that it's because they're small. And so the owners who get them, they don't train them because they're like, oh, it's just small. It's not going to, can't really do anything.

It doesn't matter if it's jumping up on so cute a little dog. And so I do think that that's A disservice to the dogs.

And look, I don't own in a small dog and I haven't trained one, so I'm not exactly out there doing the Lord's work, but pea brains.

I'm just kidding. Sorry, guys.

No, they can be really smart. But I do think that people. Yeah, I, I think it's maybe not always their fault. Like, actually, usually it's probably not. Yeah.

Working in the animal hospital, I definitely gained this like dis, like this like dislike and disdain towards small dogs because it's like, you know when you go to go touch someone's small dog to like perform like the exam or whatever, and the dog starts snipping at you and like bites you. Yeah. The owner's like, oh, you're so silly. And it's not silly. Like, if, if a shepherd did this, like, it would not be funny.

Like, why are we like treating the small dogs differently than the big dogs? Like, dog just bit me. Like, it's not cute.

And like, I just still to this day I am more likely to get into a tight, tight space with a shepherd growling at me than like a chihuahua. Like, it's just not gonna happen.

So that's fair.

Yeah.

I grew up hating small dogs because, like, my dad hated them and he's like, they're just stupid. And so I was always like, yeah, they're so stupid and I still don't love them. But there are some small dogs that I love.

Like Michelle has a little tiny dog and her name is Lollipop and she's.

So.

But I do try to remind myself, like, okay, but that's what I did. See, I did the same thing with the huskies, though.

That's.

Yeah.

I have to remember, it's not their fault.

Well, yeah, that's our little TED talk on small little rat dogs that we are learning to love today.

We.

Well, it's October, so.

October.

You know, we usually talk about domestic violence and, and so we, we tried to pull again. I think we talked about this in the last episode. That just people come to us and conversations come to us that just are meant to have.

And so someone who found us on our network, her name's Kara and her background is teaching women how to be assertive.

And it fits perfectly because in her, you know, full time job, what she does is she teaches people what sexual assault is in like college age kids so that they can one prevent it.

One, you know, help men understand what no is and the signs of something not being okay and helps when the girls be more assertive so that they don't end up in situations that.

Yeah.

They don't need to be in. And it just fits perfectly with October.

Yeah. One of my favorite things, and I think I'm pretty sure it was her that said this. She didn't just talk about what no looks like.

She talked about what yes, looks like.

Yes.

You know, like consensual sex. And I just loved that. I loved that. Like, putting that kind of spin on it.

Yeah. So, yeah, she was like, I'm not teaching the kids to be afraid of sex and not like sex. So she was like, everyone should feel comfortable with sex.

Feels good. It's supposed to be fun. And so she teaches kids and coaches them on sex is.

I say kids like they're young adults, like they're 20, but, you know, teaches them sex is fun.

And.

And that's probably what we. We could use in the school system. It sounds scary to say that, but, you know, we use the scare tactic.

And that doesn't do anything except for create a taboo and then create, like, this interest because, like. Oh, what's that? Like, you know.

Yeah. It's such a hard topic, and I don't really know what the answer is. I'm not going to lie. But I love her approach.

I love what she does, and I try to take her. What she says about assertiveness and try to carry that into my day since we've had that conversation.

So, yeah, I definitely took something out of this.

Yeah. It's great, you guys. So take it away, Kara.

Today we have with us Kara Tuttle. She's the author of Drowning into Timidity. Did I say that word right?

You said yes.

Is it drowning in timidity?

Yes.

Okay.

Okay.

That's like a tricky word, timidity.

I know. I regretted it after I've done it, because when I've had to say it, then I'm like, am I putting extra syllables in there? But. Right.

Well, thanks for joining us, Kara. We're excited to talk about this because, you know, as you have mentioned and talking to you briefly, women are raised to be polite and respect.

Polite to be respectful. And it sounds like you have a way. That's bullshit.

Yes. Yes. That's a great way to put it. I agree. Yeah.

So tell us about it.

Sure. I. I wrote a book during the pandemic. I'm one of the people, you know, who did that.

And that was good for me because I needed to figure out something to do because, you know, my work changed dramatically overnight. They sent us home, and I was like, what am I going to do with myself?

But I was really lucky that this woman who had seen me speak a few years prior reached out on me, reach out to me on LinkedIn. And this is like day three after they started to close things, you know, and. And send people home.

And she really was like, why haven't you written a book? And I was like, oh, gosh, you know, I mean, like, that's great in theory, but when are you going to sit down and do that?

But it was really the perfect time. So we.

The world was like, you're going to sit down and do it now?

Yes. No. She was really perfect for me, too, because I wouldn't have done it otherwise. Right.

Her name's Linda Eastman, and she's helped a lot of women publish books, and she's a really great coach for. But I had connected with her, and she was really trying to do a nice thing, too, because of what was going on in the world.

So she was like, I'm doing these scholarships, and I just think you have a book in you. We've got to figure out what. This is interesting. And I was hoping. Yeah, I know. It was just perfect timing.

Can I ask you real quick, like, what made her. How did she find you? What made her come to you and say, you've got a book in you?

Yeah. What were you posting that caught her attention?

That is a great question. She's in Louisville, Kentucky. I'm in Nashville, Tennessee.

So regionally, I think we had some overlapping conversations, contacts, you know, where she had seen that. But I do the. The career which has had, you know, some different roles, has been focused on empowering women. Okay.

And so I think that was what came to her attention. And, you know, in my day job, I focus on sexual misconduct prevention.

And so that is sexual harassment, sexual assault, stalking, dating, violence, domestic violence, any of the ways that people in broadly. But a lot of women are impacted by that. Okay. But what I often speak on as a speaker might be for a women's luncheon or a breakfast.

Sometimes it's Women's History Month. You know, sometimes it's the Related Domestic Violence Awareness Month or. Or Sexual Assault Awareness Month. I think that we had overlapped in.

In some of those spheres. And she did say, like, what do you want to write about? And I.

And I said, you know, I. I want it to be broader than the work that I do in my day job, because people are really coming to talk to me, like, on the side about assertiveness. Now, they weren't calling it that necessarily.

But it was like, you know, I have this tough conversation that I want my supervisor or boundary setting in a relationship or salary negotiation, something like that. And they were just wanting a minute of my time here and there, and I'm happy to give it.

You know, I mean, it's like the women need to support other women for sure. And I'm thrilled that they think that I am an assertive person. And we had these meetings, but.

But really, what had been kicking around in my mind is the. Sorry, the. That's okay. Is the quick cram session or the. Like. Yeah. I'll give you this. Like, these quick tips or a script is not the best we can do.

Right. Like, it's better than nothing. For sure. Okay. It's not the best we can do. And the reason.

Deeper.

Yes. The reason that people think that I'm assertive is it's. It's a daily practice for me. It's like the way I communicate.

It's actually linked to, you know, increased health outcomes and. And positive, healthier relationships. So the book was where I could talk about that, you know, in.

In a fuller context and touch on assertiveness in the workplace. Assertiveness in your personal relationships, assertiveness in your sexual relationships. And the real pros to embracing it more fully.

Yeah.

Because how do you. I.

How do you differentiate assertiveness from aggressiveness? Because I feel like it does. Commonly, it feels aggressive, at least to me.

Yes. And that's a great question. And the. There are a lot of ways we gender that. Right.

So where people will think if a woman is being assertive, it feels aggressive to them. Because sometimes, like, even still, we're not used to it.

Or for women, being that direct or sometimes forceful or not letting something go can feel aggressive to them. Right. But if you look at male models of leadership, we respect that in men.

We think they're tenacious, that they're, like, hungry or they're ambitious, or that they're strong. And sometimes it is bad behavior, sometimes it's aggressive behavior.

And we, you know, it can be steamrolling or bullying, and we don't want to be there. Like, that's not what I'm recommending. But we don't need to be timid or passive aggressive either, which is on the other side.

So this is about landing in the middle of those. Yeah.

Being present, communicating clearly, not expecting our partners or other, you know, friends or boss to read our mind, but engaging fairly and directly. And that's really what assertive is. That's all. But we have to redefine it because people are thinking that it means aggressive behavior.

And, you know, you can win some short term battles with aggressive behavior, but you won't win the war.

Right.

You know, fair. That will actually teach people not to engage with you, not to want to call you, to match bad behavior with bad behavior.

And we don't want to be in that toxic space either. But we do want you to feel safe, to feel heard, to be seen to be a contributor, you know, in a meeting and engage fairly with other people.

Right. Is there an example that you have where, you know, a person may answer in a traditional way versus how they would answer in a assertive way?

There are lots of examples of timidity. Right. So I think that one day when I was venting, I was like, we're drowning in timidity and people. That needs to be your book.

And I was like, write that down. Write that down somewhere, you know, and so that's actually what that came from is when you put it that way.

I can literally see myself in those situations where it's like, this is really uncomfortable, so I'm just gonna walk away.

Yes. And there are times when that might be the best strategy, but we don't want to like default to that, you know, so. Yes. So a lot of.

Because I work on a college campus, so I talk to like a lot of young women students and we have a lot of young entry level employees, and they're the ones who are.

I, I found myself giving like repeat advice where I'm, I'm starting to them and I'm saying, like, when you go into a meeting, are you sitting at the table or are you choosing the seat that's like along the wall? And why. Sometimes that's appropriate if you're the lowest ranked and there's too many people.

But sometimes that's choosing passivity and not positioning yourself for influence. Or that's a, A quick tip that I give. Talk to some women, like audiences that are like over 50 or they're retired. And so I'm like, talk to them.

And I'm like, if you're on a plane, do you ever claim the armrest or do you fold yourself in and you do. Oh my goodness, you don't think that's for you? And listen, if, you know, or on the subway, you know, are you standing or giving a seat?

If on a sidewalk, are you always moving out of the way? And I mean, I don't want you to play chicken and run people off the road.

That's not the advice either, but that's going to tell you a little bit about who you are in a situation and whether or not you feel entitled to take up an appropriate amount of space or the same space in the world as other people. And a lot of times women have been really socialized to be pleasant as a priority. Right.

Like, to maintain the peace rather than to advocate for their own needs or their safety. And so it depends what we're asking for. Right.

But so for women who are trying to advance their careers, I need them to sit at the table, I need them to talk in the meeting, you know, and with less pause and hemming and hawing also, you know, you need to, like, own your ideas. And so that's the type of mindset that I talked to them about, about shifting from passivity to assertiveness, like in the workplace.

So there's an example and those. And start small. It's like anything else. Go ahead and start small.

We want you to, like, build comfort and think of this as muscle or strength building, you know, and so you're just going to say one thing, one thing in the meeting. You're going to contribute one idea, you know, and then I, like, try to make them laugh, too, because humor is great, but I'm.

But we all know the people who take up too much space in any conversation, too much space in a meeting. And so I'm like, are their ideas amazing? And everybody's like, like, usually no, you know, we're, like, talking a lot.

And I'm like, yeah, you have one good idea. There's a reason we hired you. There's a reason that your voice, your identity is really useful here.

But if you don't talk, it's, you know, it's not being heard. But. And. And I try to charge, like, the people who work for me.

I'm like, I need you to represent our office in this meeting, you know, and not be invisible or be quiet or not talk about what our perspective might be. And so we can't let the very assertive or aggressive people dominate the world. Then it's not serving the rest of us. Yeah.

I feel as you explain that, like, what I envision and, you know, has happened in the past is it's the male boss and we're having a meeting, and then you do contribute a little bit of an offering of an idea, and it's meh. Yeah. And then brushed off and continue the conversation.

So, like, what do you say when it's just brushed off and you're like, tend to be brushed off stuff.

Yes. And what can also happen is then like, you know, brother Bob says the same idea two minutes later and then, oh my gosh.

So the stuff like that happens. And, and there's solid research on this. Right.

So sometimes people think that like I'm a grumpy feminist and I'm like, look, there's all the research in the world, all this. Okay, read Harvard Business Review if you need it. People observe meetings. We still see a lot of these things play out in sexist ways.

And yeah, we have had like women as a whole have made a lot of gains in a lot of profess in over the past few decades. But this, it's often described as low level sexism still happens day in and day out.

I think, if you don't mind, I think a lot of people get confused with like. And it's the same, I see it with people being with racism too.

It's like, well, just because it's not on a conscious level, they think, well, I'm not being sexist, I'm not being racist, I don't do it on purpose. Well, that's not what we're saying. We're just saying that there is a level of, of racism or sexism going on because it's great in our society.

It is. And so it's like I. The harm still happens. Or like this is the difference between intent and impact. Right, right. I know.

They're like, there are people with great intentions who are just used to the usual patterns of things who either don't know they're doing it or don't think it's that big of a deal. Yeah. And it, it does help to confront them with evidence. Right.

So not just like Cara's opinions, you know, I'll like walk around talking about things, but it help when I show them a graph, you know, or they say things like, well, I don't know why all the women of color are leaving the company. And I'm like, well, things like that meeting where they get brushed off, that adds up over time. They don't feel seen and valued.

They don't feel like they're able to do the work we hired them to do. They're, you know, eventually going to go where they, the work feels more meaningful to them.

And so the small stuff, you know, which is the privileged person's way of thinking about it, the small stuff absolutely adds up.

Oh yeah, it's not so small anymore.

It's not so small. It's.

And it's actually like the, there's an iceberg graphic I use when I'm talking about sex harassment in particular, there's this iceberg graphic, which is, like, below the waterline is a very broad based of behaviors that people think they don't need to address because they don't want to overreact, they don't want to report those. They don't want to get anyone into trouble over what they're deciding is one comment or they didn't really mean it. You know, something like that.

So we're really good at talking ourselves into not overreacting or minding our own business. You know, that's where everybody's like, you know, I did hear it, but I'm just going to mind my own business. Then nothing changes.

That's why I won't let my kids work in the restaurant, because it's so common for, like, everyone to be touchy. And, like, if one of the guys, like, slaps your butt and you, like, turn on your, like, excuse me.

Then, you know, everyone around be like, he does that to everyone.

Prude. Yeah.

Right. So we've really minimized. I mean, in the law, by the way, these things could be sexual assault contact.

You know, it could be, like, forcible fondling. You know, that's. I mean, that creepy term still around in the law, but that's like, it's no in. In different state statutes.

Like, we've decided those things are wrong, but we've told people, and particularly young adults, it's normal behavior. And. And that, like, if you. If you voice your discomfort, you're the problem. So. Right.

My book is trying to correct some of that, actually, and be like, no, you have a right not to have, you know, your ass slapped in the restaurant. Exactly. No one should be grabbing your butt. That's not actually fine.

Yeah. So actually, since we. I feel like we can all picture this scenario in this. Yeah. This scenario. So let's say that that is what happened.

And, you know, the individual is like, yeah, I don't. I don't like that. Everyone's like, oh, he does that to everyone. Like, what? How would I respond if that were me?

So you have more time than you think. Okay, So I have a lot of. Of people who, when they start thinking about this, they're like, oh, you know, they think I'm so quick.

They're like, oh, you're so quick and you're so feisty.

Right.

Two or three days to think of what I should have said. Right. And that's okay.

How we all are. I feel that's how I am.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, like, listen, I do that too, where I'm like, oh, you know, days later, I'm like, only I crafted my whole argument where I'm gonna tell him how it is. No, you know, like. But you do get better with practice, you know, So I have really practiced this. First of all, it was, like, just for my own self.

Like, I. I wanted to be, like, I had, like, girl power, you know, thoughts in.

In junior high and high school, but I didn't have a voice to those, you know, now later on, because I'm a nerd, you know, then I'm like, I got, you know, got my degree in women's studies. So I've, like, really got the, like, academic credentials behind it now, but I had to do the work myself.

And law school will help, you know, I mean, it really teaches you to. To jump in there, but. But I had to do that. So I'm like, yeah, I've got years of practice, you know, I've got, like, years of practice doing this.

So it seems like I'm really quick, but I am having those same pauses, you know, like, getting turned off. Like, did they just say what I thought they said? And not wanting to overreact, but I've learned to.

To jump in and clarify, you know, so now I'll be like, I'm sorry, what? You know, and. Or you can just start with not laughing at the joke. That's a great place to start.

It's such a hate place to start is better yet, make them explain it.

That's what I was just about to say.

So you would stop and be like, did you just touch my butt?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Why is that okay?

It's not okay, you know, right? Like, yeah, that's not okay. So that's a yeah. If. Now if you push the person and be like, you touched my back.

And what is very sad is society then will say, you overreacted. But if you can have the, like, wait, what is happening? Moment, that is a little less aggressive.

Although I will defend your right to be aggressive in that situation. I really will. You need your anger validated. You need your bodily autonomy valid. Validated.

I'm happy to do that, but that feels risky because people do then shift focus to the person who is outraged, you know, about what happened to them in a way that's unfair. So a great tactic is simply being like, did you just touch my butt?

Or not laughing at the joke or saying like, I don't get it, and just kind of staring. This is so good.

I Mean, it's actually a great tactic because then it just kind of falls flat, and then they're like, the truth of the joke, which might be their racism.

Right.

Sexism is just hanging out there. But you didn't actually say. You shouldn't have said that that joke was racist, which you can again.

But if that doesn't feel safe and sometimes the problem's our boss, or sometimes, you know, the. The person's stronger. You know, like, if they're safety concerns, then you might want to try a different tactic to address the behaviors.

But can I share a quick. A quick little.

So I remember one time I was working at a quilt shop, and one of the reps came to show me some fabrics, and it was a guy who'd been in the business forever, and he says, after you, and I'm going up the stairs. And he said, what are you. He said something? Yeah. This is a job where.

Or this is a moment where it's, like, polite of me to get to see the behind of a woman because I'm walking up something really rude and inappropriate. And I. And I was just like, whoa. I turned around, I said, wow. And he goes, oh, well, I can get away with that because I'm an old man.

And I said, can you, though? And then.

That's great.

He got so uncomfortable because he knew, because then it was on him to answer and to have a reason, like. And he realized there's nothing I can say because, no, that's not cool. He knew it.

And so he immediately goes, so, yeah, it was so funny because he goes, so this. What's the state part of Georgia again? And he totally just pivoted to something that made no sense.

That's great. And, like, it was. You didn't risk your job, but you reacted. You disrupted the moment. You prompted some further reflection on his part.

You know, like, I think that's, like, a. An excellent way, and a lot of us aren't doing that, so that. That's the way, you know, to, like, they think.

A lot of the old men do think that, like, the world's now overreacting and oversensitive, and it's all been fine. And I'm like. But it's. It's not fine. It's.

It's not fine, and we don't want you to continue doing it, and we shouldn't have to do the work to make them change, but nobody else is. Is the sad.

There you go. Yeah, unfortunately.

Yeah.

It's like, it's not our fault, but at the same time, by not speaking up and being like taking it more seriously. Like it's not going to get any better or change.

It's really not. And like the. If you're the target or the victim in a situation, you know, frankly, I expect less from you.

Just survive it, you know, like just, yeah, do what you can to hopefully minimize your risk and get out. But if you're the bystander, then I expect more. You know, let me just tell you.

The types of things that I experienced and heard in the restaurant. Again, why my kids will never work in the restaurant. I need this day off because I have to take my 3 year old to the doctor.

You can have that off if you suck my dick.

Right.

And then, you know, everyone around is like, oh, and I'm the. And he was serious. That's the sad part.

He was serious. Yes.

What else did I hear? Like, it's just stuff like that, it's.

Very explicit like, like the service industry.

So, you know, the women in particular who work in restaurants also, you know, like LGBTQ people who work in restaurants also are experienced so much harassment.

Right.

Bartenders, servers, hostesses, you know, I mean, like when MeToo was happening a few years ago and there was a lot of talk, the.

We saw a lot of policies, changes in corporate workplaces respond in some ways, but there are, there are whole industries and this is a perfect one that were left behind. Right. Where we know the behavior is rampant and tolerated, it becomes just part of the conversation. Yes, it is. It is widely accepted in hotels also.

You know, people who are doing cleaning or janitorial services, you know, a lot of risk and don't have a lot of workplace protections. So where their shifts, where the work is hourly.

We have so much work to do in addressing sexual harassment because you know, the boss can means it till, till he's called on it and then it's joke.

Right, Right, exactly.

And. But you know, like if they'll get the blow job, then fine, you know. Right. But.

And sometimes, honestly even then he'll probably still say, oh, it was just a joke, but she went for it. And who might have turn it. You know what I mean?

Right. It's always. He's going to say it's consensual. He's going to say like, yeah, we liked each other, it was fine.

And we're not addressing the like power differentials in that. Like you need to take your kid to the doctor, you know, like that's a real need.

And we don't have workplace protections or sufficient time off for you know, healthcare, childcare, and so those are ripe for abuse in the workplace.

So you mentioned that you do or did work on a campus, and I feel like I heard that in the first few months of school, starting on campus is like, pretty high in sexual assault and sexual harassment.

Yes, it is. So, like, 20 years of my career have been on college campuses. So that's like really the. The day job. But yeah, so the risk is high.

We call this the red zone, actually, like, it has a term like this time frame. It is. There's a real seasonal nature to the risk of sexual assault for college students, and it goes along with the academic calendar.

So for students, if you think of like the first year student, same for sophomores. They have a heightened risk, too. They're moving to a new place. They need to make new friends.

They might have an absence of parental supervision for the first time. They might experience increased availability to alcohol or drugs, sometimes for the first time. And it's very exciting for them. It's very fun.

But there's also a lot of social activity. And sometimes this. Sometimes this is connected to the athletic season because we have social activities related to that.

You know, so anytime there's going to be increased drinking, we're going to have an increased risk of sexual assault. And so this is why the students face this risk. Right. In August, September and October on most campuses. That's if they follow the semester schedule.

That's the period of heightened risk. And it's because we're just kind of throwing them into this new social situation.

And so we do try to do a lot of prevention education and like, bystander training with students at that time, because we know that. That most sexual assaults that occur on a college campus are happening in that time frame.

That's so interesting because you're. I can see how education's important. I re. I kind of, as you were talking, remembered being that age. I was actually a little younger.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

And I remember, like, you go into a situation where you're in college and it's like, here I am. I don't really know the rules of this game. So I'm gonna sit back and I'm just gonna let things happen and watch. And that must be pretty normal.

And you're kind of, like, trying to, like, build a new. New boundary system almost.

Yes.

And I think that the education is really important because you can have someone tell you, hey, no, that's not normal.

This is.

It's okay to react this way and have these boundaries up and don't let anybody tell you. Oh, you just don't know the, the thing. You just don't know how it goes because you're so young or naive or whatever.

Yes. I mean, that is, that is exactly what we're trying to do. You know, the.

There is no consistency in the sexual education that young adults, really globally.

But, you know, like, I'm more focused on the U.S. so I know, and I know more about the U.S. but there is no consistency yet in what, if any, sex ed they're getting. Right? They're. They're getting to college from all these different places.

And some of them have had experience, like in person experience, but a lot of them haven't actually. So if we look at Generation Z, if we look at like today's young adult, young college, I remember you saying.

That, that the kids, the students lie.

Oh, yeah, well, like, that's true for us, that's true for them. You know what I mean? They're, they're saying they're doing way more than they're doing the same way that like, you know, boys in particular did.

When, oh, we're talking about how much sex they do have.

Okay. Oh, yeah. You know, so they, they do to each other, especially because it is new norms, new world. Who am I in this environment? You know?

And listen, I thank God I'm not in it. I don't want to be that age. I'm not being this. I need new friends, you know, I got plenty of friends. I know who I am. I got boundaries.

But this is like really hard for really the 16 to 24 year olds. That's a real age range of heightened risk for them. And I think we can just do better than them learning the hard way, you know, I mean, like, I.

Surely we can then give them accurate information. And if we do have sex ed, I would love for it to include consent education and boundary setting. And some. And boundary setting is assertiveness.

You know, like that's what this is and bystander intervention. So what do I do if I see something and my friend is in trouble? You have to be assertive to, to be a good active bystander. Right?

So for me, these things are, are all connected.

And we have in the US had an expectation that schools will offer, if not require, what we call bystander intervention training for about 10 years now. So there's some good news in this story, right, Is that they're in college, more education on these topics than ever before.

So the bystander interventions that I remember are confront, delegate, Distraction, document and delay. It sounds like the example that you just gave is distract.

Distract and check in. I mean, it can be a combo. So like, like you're acting like you need her to go to the bathroom with you.

Is that a delay?

Delays also? Yeah, you know, like whatever works. We'll take whatever works.

You know, if you think your friends are the problem, which sometimes they are, you know, it's not. We don't only know the right victim.

We also know the friend who gets or too drunk or what, you know, so you can go up to him and be like, hey, I think your car is getting towed. That creates disrupts at the moment. You know, you can separate the parties, you can check in with the person.

But I also teach, you know, so like in the fraternities, if they're hosting the parties, somebody's responsible for party patrol. Okay. They call it different things. So they have sober monitors, right? The person who's not supposed to drink, who is somewhat responsible for safety.

So if you're a new member and you see a problem, but you don't know what to do, or you think they're going to get mad if I talk about like the senior who's doing something inappropriate, they should be able to go to party patrol or the sober monitor who should not be a new member if they're doing this correctly, you know, and say like, hey, I don't know about that situation over there. Or I saw, you know, some like a really, really drunk girl being led to, you know, a bedroom. And I'm not sure that that's fine. Right?

You don't have to know what you're seeing. You don't have to over respond.

You know, we're telling them, like, we're not expecting them to call the police, except when you need to call the police, then please call the police. But you can delegate to that person to go look into the situation, you.

Know, So I never heard of a sober monitor. Do they, I mean, like, obviously I didn't go to college.

Well, yeah, fair.

But I was never in any fraternities or sororities. I mean, but is that like a thing, like they have to have at every party? Is that a real thing or is.

It like, oh, the look on her face.

Yeah, I'm like, it depends. So I'm like, my answer, like, it is a real thing.

That many teams, student organizations, sororities, fraternities, like we try to cover all of them is a real thing because they get, they get additional training. So they might get like some sexual misconduct prevention. Training or bystander intervention training.

They should also get host responsibility training or like, you know, party host training. And schools have, have different policies, but they definitely have like alcohol policies. Some schools say you can't have alcohol at any event.

You know, some schools say you can have alcohol with certain branders. Right. Some schools say you can have beer only but not liquor, you know, like. And so it's, there's no one rule. And some counties are dry.

Counties were like, you know, so it depends where the school is. It depends on if it's public or private. It depends on if it's religious affiliated.

But lots of schools have lots of policies about the social event, you know, and if the organizations follow the policies, those events should be safer. Okay, but they are young adults. Okay? So.

Right.

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. And actually the organizations or the schools like that have more money often are able to have safer events.

So sometimes the schools are able to hire bartenders to come in and host, like to be a licensed bartender at.

The party because they have to monitor the.

I feel better about that, you know, or sometimes the students can bring their alcohol.

The students of legal drinking age can bring their alcohol and like check it in, you know, and the bartender is distributing a certain number of drinks. But there's interesting.

Yeah, you know, like different than when I was young.

It is very different.

I think we're probably like similar to the same age, but. Yeah, like it's 20 years.

Wow.

It shouldn't be a free for all to, to address some of the risks of yesteryear, you know, but some, you know, sometimes they, they don't follow the rules and then aren't as safe as they could be. And so for us too, we really want the young people to know that like, like it's.

The alcohol policy is actually connected to sexual misconduct prevention, you know, because it's. Because overwhelmingly what we're seeing on a college campus is alcohol facilitated sexual assault. It makes sense.

It's not the only way it can happen, for sure. You know, like nobody has to be drinking for sexual assault to happen. No, but like when you're impaired, yes, it's going to go up.

The risk goes up of both being victimized and perpetrating, you know, because like if you consume and to the point of intoxication or certainly incapacitation, you are not going to be good at reading the other's behavior, you know. Yeah. You're not going to be good at knowing how much they've had to drink or assessing how intoxicated they are.

Oh, so do you. Are you able to teach the young men how to assess that even if they're the ones drinking? Like, do they even worry about that?

Good question.

If you talk to, like, young men today, they will tell you that their fear of being accused of sexual assault is very, you know, like their, their fear of being accused. Being accused is not matching up with reality.

Now I know that, like, they could be accused, they could commit sexual assault, but they're really, really worried about that. So I try to be like, then you really need to be clear about obtaining consent, you know, so like, how do I use that fear to reach them then?

You know, Because I don't want them to be like, you just never know. And it's like the game of roulette. I want to be like, no, there are ways we can reduce the risk of you being accused, you know? Right.

There's research on that and there is research that shows that men over. Back to assertiveness. The men overestimate women's sexual interest in them. Ah.

And women say, oh, I was just being polite so that I don't get harassed best. Right. So we have like this, this disconnect happening. And this is for women and men of all ages. This is not just college students.

Yeah.

You know, that women think we're being polite so that we can navigate the world safely. And men are being like, she smiled at me.

She must, you know, and so, and sometimes people get really annoyed, but it's not my research, you know, I mean, again. Right. You want the citations? I'm happy to share it. You know, there's plenty of studies on this.

And so yes, the answer is yes, that we do talk to the young men. And they're like, okay.

And I have really sincerely engaged young men who want to learn and who are worried about what goes on in their student organizations and who come. The world has changed because they don't just want to meet with like, me and my team because they have to. They.

They want more of our time than like, you know, I'm like, I can't meet with you every week, you know, like, because they're, they're really, they really do care. They don't want to tolerate that kind of harm in their midst. But they don't always know what to do. They're young, you know, so it's. It.

It's really fun to work with them because they, there is sincere interest and they're curious. And so we do teach them things to say, ways to not kill the vibe.

You Know, because they, because they're like, well, I don't, you know, I don't want to. Do you consent?

And then yeah, you know, like.

Or they're like, we filmed video. And I'm like, oh yeah, not going to work, you know, for so many reasons.

But, but like, I'm like, listen, nobody's going to be mad at you if you pause and say like, is this okay? Do you like this? Like, nobody's going to be mad the next day when they're talking about it to their friends.

They're just going to say, you're considerate, you're going to get a good reputation. Actually, this is going fine. You know, this is going to be fine. So the laws, the policies often don't require a verbal yes.

You know, like, like I'm 100% fine if they get the verbal yes. I like words. Words are great words. But most of the policies are saying that consent can be conveyed through words and, or actions.

But that's where students sometimes say it's gray area. And so we try to teach them like, look, if it feels gray area, you got to clarify though, you know, you don't get to just like keep going. Right.

So a person shouldn't have to fight you off. You know, I think of what we were taught. We were taught to like me, the attacker in the groin and yell no.

Or they thought we were going to like blow the rape whistle, you know. Right. These ideas that it's not really. Yeah, but it's not what most people do.

Like I have never in 20 years had anyone be like, well, he tried to attack me and I blew my rape. Yeah. And, and, and the, if you have a whistle, blow the whistle in their face.

I mean, again, I'm not against any of the tools, you know, like, try what can do to fight off the harm. But we can't rely upon that because then I'll have people who are like, I was digging through my bag and I couldn't find my whistle.

You know, I mean like, this is not going to work. We've got to really deal with the moments that are these, like human to human interpersonal communication. And sometimes it's not going to work.

I want to be clear, you know, it's like some people are just trying to harm you and cross your boundaries and all the different tactics. And no amount of assertiveness is going to be able to stop that.

So we just want to be clear that we're not blaming anyone in any way for what they were or were not able to do. You know, some people freeze, some people find, some people fawn, which is actually. Or appease. That's. That's rational.

That is you trying to minimize the harm in the moment. Get out, you know, fight, flight, freeze, or like a piece are things that we typically see as a.

If you're being targeted, you know, or harmed as the, as the human reaction.

So what about the situations where. Where the boy keeps, like, you know, trying. You're like, no, I don't want to. And they try again, no, I don't want to.

So eventually you're like, fine, like, and you just cave in because, like, they're not going to leave you alone until you just say fine. So, like, is that considered consensual? Or like, what is that?

The, the answer. The, you know, the, the legal answer, the lawyer answer is always, it depends. And so the answer is, it depends.

We do, a lot of schools do address coercion, and so that repeat pressure or threats or intimidation is often called coercion in our policies. And so we do address that. We do teach about that. And I think societally we've made some progress on that.

So I do tell them, like, if, if someone says no or seems ambivalent, you don't get to keep pressuring them.

And that repeat pressure can amount to coercion, which, you know, at the institutions I've worked at in the past has also been considered a policy violation. So you shouldn't do that. But they're getting. Excuse me.

Young people are often getting bad advice from TV and film or problematic people in their lives that, like, oh, if you just keep trying, eventually, you know, she'll cave. Like, you know. Right. They still tell us that they hear that from people.

Yeah, but we tell them that that's not what consent looks like because, again, the people should want to be there. It should be happening at the same pace. It should be mutual.

And you don't want to be in the gray area or you don't want to be defending this behavior afterwards. Right. That's not going to look good if they're. If what we agree on is that you did keep pressuring over and over.

It'S probably safe to say, if you're.

Not sure, I tell them to opt out. There's always tomorrow. There's things you can do, you know, that there will be somewhat. There'll be another opportunity in their future, you know.

Yeah, just see yourself out if there's any sort of reluctance. But then I could see that that goes into, like, the real. The like, oh, I, I Didn't mean that. I'm sorry. Go ahead, continue.

If, If.

If the boys or men are being taught that, like, oh, if they say anything along the lines of, I don't. Not that, and then they're just like, okay, abort mission. Like, the girl likely will be like, oh, it's okay, it's okay. Go ahead.

There is a lot of that. Yeah, there's a lot of that.

And you know, in the, in the US we see that behavior of, like, making it okay and making people feel better and making the moment less awkward to be really gendered. But it's also like, we see it with.

With international students too, about different cultures who engage with people very respectfully and civilly, which usually is a great thing. Yeah. But is this, like, making it okay? And that can be cover for people to get away with a lot of bad behavior. Right.

Is if they then act like it's a joke or then act like. Because we do have.

I do have, you know, stories where people are like, they stopped for a minute and they said they were sorry, but then they did it again, you know.

Right.

So then there's this back and and forth that is really.

It's really confusing for person afterwards too, because they were like, well, they weren't rude the whole time, but then they assaulted me, you know, which, like, can be a perpetrator's technique actually to do it and get away with it, which gets us into a whole other conversation. But. But yes, you know, so, like, it's all fraught with risk.

And so the more we can talk about them being really clear communicators, like wanting clear communication, but giving clear communication or asking for it, you know, can. Can make this much safer.

But if it is enthusiastic and it's mutual, you know, then it's like, then it's that, like, again, that's a safer place to be. Right. Like the. Not legally required, but such a great sign.

Right, Right.

It really should be the goal. Yeah. Wow.

So I was just kind of thinking about how you're talking because, like you said, this all circles back to assertiveness women. And like you said, Sam, you're saying a girl will sometimes want to make the person feel better.

We're like, oh, well, it's okay.

Sorry, I didn't really. You know.

Yeah.

And it's like, we do have kind of like, a lot of pressure on us, or at least even if it's just pressure we put on ourselves because of what we were taught growing up. But yeah, like, to make the people around us feel Comfortable. So what can you say about assertiveness and how assertive?

Well, you already kind of did talk about assertive is different than aggressive.

Yeah.

And I just want to, like, kind.

Of go back to that.

I just think it's really interesting. I don't know if you had any more.

Yeah, I. I mean, I think I. I think if we transition a little bit from what we were talking about, I think if someone's trying to cross your boundaries, you can aggressively defend your boundaries, you know, Like, I. You don't have to be pleasant about that. Right. Um, but just to be clear, aggressive.

We're saying don't touch me.

Right.

Or are we, like, there might be.

A moment where that is a totally valid response, you know? Oh, right.

Okay.

But in the workplace, you know, in a meeting, like, if you come up with that kind of intensity, that's going to be aggression. That's not going to serve you well, you know, and. Or if you're like the.

If you're navigating sexual harassment across a power differential, you know, I. Again, I'll totally defend your right to be safe and free from that, but a lot of people won't feel able to summon that kind of.

Of like, firm response, nor should you have to, you know. Okay.

And so there might be times when aggressive behavior can match the aggressive behavior, you know, like, I think like a boundary violation, that a sexual assault is aggressive behavior, you know, and you don't have to be polite in the face of that, but because we've tolerated differences in behavior. So, you know, parents, like, parents really have a role here.

If you expect your daughters to be better behaved than your sons, you're contributing to the problem here. Yeah. So if you are like, boys will be boys, and boys are allowed to be physical and loud and rambunctious and take a up space, and the.

The girls in your life are not allowed to do that. That's the breeding ground for a whole host of bad behaviors here and socialization to. For women to be pleasant and not assert their boundaries. Yeah.

So I have a chapter in my book, but I'm a believer that, like, we should raise angry girls. We should allow women and girls to be angry. And actually, people are much more comfortable talking about their daughters.

Hypothetical or hypothetical daughters or real daughters. If I say, like, like, let them be angry, a lot of women are like, yeah. And then I'm like, you too, can be angry them to each other.

They're like, yes, I am angry, but they don't feel like this need to. They don't Feel as validated in expressing their anger. And I don't want you to be angry in a way that's like bitter and ruining your life.

But I do guess that's. Yeah. Because that's kind of angry about. That's.

Yeah, I agree. I think that's kind of like you as you've been talking, because I don't think I really gave you a real question earlier.

Earlier, but it kind of started forming. It's like, how do you, when you're in a situation where you're like, hey, I need you to back off, but you don't.

So you don't want to hurt their feelings either. How do you come back and say, hey, wasn't trying to hurt your feelings. I just wanted to establish like these boundaries.

Yeah.

Without looking like you're trying to flip flop. That's. I guess that's kind of where.

It really depends on the relationship. Right. And if you want to do that repair or not, you know, Like, I, I do think for women in particular, you know, you are not causing the problem.

Remember that. Right. And naming the pro. The person who names the problem is not actually causing the problem.

Okay.

And I think we forget that ourselves. And I think we forget that in the workplace, you know, because then it's like they think, oh, like who's stirring up trouble?

And they think it's the reporting party. It's not the reporting party. The person who tells us about what's going on that should not be going on is not actually the problem.

But we, we, we sit in this space of like, keep the peace, mind my own business, and then we get confused about who's actually causing the problem. The person violating the boundary, engaging in the bad behavior is the problem. And we got to keep our focus there.

And then for you, you know, like, you have every right to protect your boundaries. You get these boundaries, they get those boundaries. They need to stay over there unless you invite them over here, you know, and. Right.

But it, but it does.

Like, the, the reason I get talk invitations on this is because we are so used to having very teeny, tiny, narrow boundaries, you know, that we're used to being violated. And so we do have to do the work of thinking like, oh, no, wait, I have a right to a egalitarian relationship, to a healthy relationship.

I have the right to set some expectations for my mother in law about what she's allowed to do in my life or not, or come over or not, or expect from my husband or not. You know, but because we think we have to Be nice and pleasant. We let those boundary violations happen all the time, and then it can be done.

But it's. It's tough to reassert them. It's. It's easier to build them initially or, you know, it's a.

It's a teach people how you want to be treated type of approach. If you can do it on the front end, that's great. We can. We could try to do it in the middle of the relationship.

You have every right to rebuild your relationship. You have a right to go to your romantic partner and say, I'm not getting what I need. You know, you have a right. Change my mind or change your mind.

You do actually, you know, like, they might be caught off guard. They might not be happy to hear it.

You know, the way things were, working for them might be appealing to them, but you do have the right to ask for something different. And so it. Your approach depends on how much repair or maintaining of the relationship you want to do. Okay, so, like, if.

I mean, I was traveling, like business travel a few weeks ago and got in late and the hotel restaurant was still open and I hadn't eaten yet. And I mean, honestly, I even do the same as a individual. I was like, I. I almost never eat in the restaurant.

I almost always take it back to the room. So I will be left alone, you know?

That's right. There's times when you avoid just being out in public because you don't want to be approached or bothered and you don't want to.

I don't want to deal with it. It. I know too much because of my.

Life, work, you know what I mean?

I was just like. But I was just tired and I was like, you thought it was fine. It wasn't very busy.

I'll just sit, you know, and get something to eat and have a glass of wine at the end of a long day. And there's nothing wrong with this. This should be fine.

And I eat my, you know, sandwich and I have my wine and I'm paying my check and I'm leaving, and all. All things seem fine, you know.

And then right when I'm like, setting the check down, a man swoops in and sits next to me too close, pulls the chair and, you know, automatically is assuming he's ent to some of my space.

And what I thought, even though I know better, even though I really, you know, is like, I knew better, I should have just, you know, taken this to my room as if it is somehow my fault. And none of this, none of not at all. You know, but he swoops in and he's fine.

And again, I'm polite because I don't know, you know, because we're like. We give every individual the chance. Like, they're starting from scratch. Like, we don't know where this is going.

Yeah, you don't know where this is going.

This is going exactly where we all think. Think it's going. Yeah. And he's really pushy, and he's like. Motions to the bartender who already was pouring me, like, a.

Another glass of wine that I didn't ask for, you know, because he'd ordered it over there before he came to sit down. And so it's just in front of me. And again, everything's fine till it's not, you know, and we don't want to overreact. And so I was like, what is this?

And bartender is like, it's what you were having before. And, you know, I said, I didn't ask for this now. I mean, I do this for a living. So I'm like, real assertive.

So, yeah, might be his mistake sitting next to me. Wrong girl, you know? But he's like, what are you. Where are you going? And I was like, I'm gonna go back to my room. And he's like, why?

Why would you do that? You know? And I was like, a slate, and I've traveled all day, and why do.

You have to explain?

But we do explain, you know? And so then it's like, I can't just want to do with my. What I want to do. And he's kind of blocked me in. Right? Which is normal. Right?

We're used to this in the setting. Except this is not.

Like, this is not a bar that I chose to go out to, to socialize, to meet, you know, I mean, like, this is right Wednesday at like, 9:30, you know, in a business travel situation. And he was just really, really pushy. And then he started touching me, you know, and then I moved his hand, and I was like, you can't. And then I. What?

I was like, like, these are my boundaries. And deeper. Your boundaries, you know, and then he finally was like, what do you do for a living? And I was like, oh.

You know, But I was just like, oh, my God. Like, I. You think you age out of it. You think it's. It's. You think you're fully prepared. But this went on. What I even.

I, like, I, who know all of this, who practices all of this, let this go on far too long, you know, and then I excused myself to go to the restroom and I went to a different restroom because I was like, this man is going to follow me. You know, like you just got on, you know. You know, because I excuse myself. And so then I saw him try to go to the other one.

And so I basically am hiding and waiting for him to go up the elevator so that I can then go to my room by myself, you know, And I was like, I mean, my God, I am 47 years old and you're still in that situation, equipped at asserting my boundaries and all of this stuff. And he was perfectly friendly until, you know, until it got pushy at the end and I had. And I said no know, several times.

Now, I don't owe him that much politeness, right?

Like I.

My disinterest. I told him I was in a relationship, you know, I mean, it just kept going and going. And we think this is totally normal. This is like the.

What the price of navigating the world in the, in a, you know, woman's body. Yeah, but. And I was fine and I was just navigating it. And then I get back to the room, then I'm like pissed, you know?

Yes.

Mad again, as you're hiding or were you like, just not at the point where you're like, what the.

The. Yeah, yeah, I was really in that for. I was really annoyed, you know, because the bartender was like making.

Was like, huh, you know, making sorry faces at me, you know, and didn't stop it. Well, the whole room was very clear that I was not interested.

This, like, this took on a whole dynamic, turns out like a, A, a board game conference in town and there were a number of bystanders who did nothing also. So it's just me fending for myself. And I feel very equipped to do that, you know, Like, I know all the strategies.

So I was just like, I guess I could ask.

Oh, board gamer man. I've been to board gaming conferences because I have a board gamer.

It was great, it was fascinating. But they were very busy and engrossed in their fame at a table, you know, over there. But there were things I could do.

Like, I did feel safe enough to do that and I was kind of like rolling my eyes at the whole situation and debriefing it later in my, in my mind and when I was like, talking to a girlfriend. But that's why I was just like, oh my God, it's so routine. Yeah, it's so routine. It's so typical. And I'm sure this man thinks this Behavior was fine.

Probably doesn't even remember.

I think twice, and he probably doesn't remember.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I don't want to take any more of your time.

And this has been a really great conversation that hopefully, you know, brings people to be like, oh, okay, well, let's just start speaking up and, like, making the room a little more uncomfortable. And I just want to share something that stood out with me, with the lady that I was talking to.

She's older, and I'm someone who's always been timid and uncomfortable if someone's looking at me in general. So at first I'm thinking I'm timid that people are looking at me because I didn't like my body. Now that I had surgery and love my body.

Then I was timid that, like, people are looking at it and, like. Like, sexualizing it to where, like, I was trying to stay covered up. And this elder lady who, too, has had surgery, and she's.

She's very well spoken, very. Like, you respect her. When she walks into a room and she saw me, like, keep covering myself up and pulling my stuff up, and she was like.

She pulled me aside, and she goes, why are you so fidgety? Are you okay? And I was like, yeah, I'm just trying to be like, you know, I don't want to be, like, inappropriate.

And, you know, there's, like, other husbands here and. And stuff. And she goes, so why do you have to cover up?

And.

And so she, like, asked me these questions. I was like, well, I just don't want to offend anyone. And she goes, I work with construction men for a living, and do you know what I do?

She was like, if one of the men are staring at my boobs, I say, dawn, am I staring at your dick right now? And, like, she's like. And I make it uncomfortable. Like. Like, no, I don't. So eyes up here.

No, I love. I mean, I love that. Right. And it's the same message.

It's like, you should be safe and you should have healthy relationships, and you should be able to show up and be fully present and, you know, as your authentic self in all of these different spaces. And I really wish you were welcomed in that way. Right. And that we didn't have to do the work, but I want you to feel entitled to all of that.

And if that means that, you know, you're. You're asserting your boundaries and you're participating fully and you're communicating clearly and there uncomfortable, that's not your problem.

Yeah, that's Their problem. Right. And a lot of that work is their responsibility. But you're in. In. You're entitled, you know, to wonderful things.

And so I want you to, like, go out and get them and then. But also. Yeah, don't worry about pissing people off or making them uncomfortable if they're crossing your boundaries.

You know, like Melissa's example, like, just ask a question back and then when they start getting weird about it, there's your answer.

There's your answer. They knew.

Yeah.

And I like to.

I really.

I'm really liking the whole bystander assertiveness that you're talking about too, because we.

Need to, like, take care of each other and lift each other out. And that's. It's really, really key. You know, it's. It's a public health model. It's also.

It's like a solidarity or sisterhood model, you know, it is what we can do.

So if I am safer in this moment, then I need to do the work that might be a little bit uncomfortable of, like, making you also safe, you know, or, you know, my God, the buddy system. It's the buddy system, you know, that, like, has served us well for centuries. We just got it.

We just got to do it, you know, but, like, if you have privilege or safety or assertiveness skills or confidence or whatever it is in that moment, you know, it's the rising tide lifts all. All, all boats. Like, you've gotta take care of yourself, but take care of others. Yeah.

Perfectly said. Thank you so much.

Thank you. This is really fun. Thank you for having great conversation.

I can tell you, you have so much fun talking about it.

I. I do. Thanks.

So you have classes that if anyone's interested in gaining up their skills and in assertiveness and being more com. Confident and comfortable in these situations, you have courses for them.

This. I do them sometimes. So the. On my website, you can.

You can buy the book, but I've got some free downloads, so if you're not ready to buy the book, we've got some free worksheets and then I've got an assertiveness workbook coming out soon. And it'll be available on my website, but on Amazon, and that's wonderful. So.

Plug your website real quick for us.

It is drowning intimidity dot com.

Of course it is.

Oh, my God, I love it.

It.

I do. Word. I. I will forever be like, I am timidity.

You know, it's funny because in the very beginning when you said it, I was almost like, well, wait a minute. What does timidity mean? And I was like, it just means.

Yeah, it just means timid. You know, it made it more complicated.

But, yeah, once you started, like, the assertiveness and being timid, I was like.

Timidity, of course I like it.

I like it. I love it.

So.

Well, thank you so much. And I look forward to our listeners listening.

Yeah. Thank you.

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