Hello and welcome to episode seven of the Project. Edward 2023 Podcast with me, James Luckhurst. The title of the podcast season is My Role in the Safe System. And this week we're in the esteemed company of two leaders from the world of law enforcement. Joy Allen, Police and Crime Commissioner for Durham and the National Deputy Lead for Roads Policing and Jo Shiner, Chief Constable of Sussex and the National Police Chiefs Council lead for roads policing.

Unknown

Unknown

And Jo Shiner, Chief Constable of Sussex and the National Police Chiefs Council lead for roads policing. I made a rather soggy journey on foot from the station up to Joy's office at Ainley Heads in Durham recently, perhaps more sensibly. Joe joined us remotely from the warm and dry of her office in Lewes. While I first asked Joy about her role.

Unknown

Right. Well, I think I've got two roles. I'm the deputy lead for the Association of Police and Crime Commissioner for Roads, Policing and Transport, and my role is to actively engage with all the other 42 PCSOS and also other agencies to advocate for policies that aim to reduce the number of people killed and seriously injured on the roads.

Unknown

And you're a politician, Would that be right as a political appointment? The PCC Let's just be sure we elected normally every four years, but because of COVID, it was three years. So we all up in May of next year. Chief Constable Joe Shine. Tell us how you see your role in the safe system. So I see my role.

Unknown

I lead the National Police Chiefs Council on everything road policing and road safety. And my role is to really work in partnership with many other people to try to pull together what is best practice and how we might be able to implement in the future to be able to reduce those people who are killed or seriously injured on our roads.

Unknown

Policing the road is everyone's responsibility. That's what it says in your in your strategy. Can you expand on this a bit and offer perhaps some examples to illustrate how that can work? Everybody policing the roads? Yes, certainly it has to be everybody's responsibility. The vast, vast majority of people use our roads better or not. So as a car driver, whether it's pedestrian and cyclist, horse rider, whatever that is, and therefore not only policing the roads, if you like, or making our roads safer, everybody's responsibility, but that sense of personal, responsible to making sure that you are thinking about other road users and public space users whilst you are using them, it's really, really important.

Unknown

More widely, though, of course, it comes down to policymakers, planners, engineers, vehicle manufacturers, fleet managers, enforcement officers, and there is a whole collector of people who can and should have an influence in terms of making our roads safer for the future. Commissioner, I'll turn to you. Just talk to me about your officers. How motivated are they? What kind of impression do you get of and of what spurs them on to do their work?

Unknown

I think the very passionate about the work that they do as a very creative, innovative, the always looking for new solutions to really make the difference, to reduce those killed and seriously injured on the roads. I totally agree with what Joe said. I think the public have a massive role to play in helping keep our roads safe and reduce road deaths.

Unknown

I think the introduction of the and Operation SNAP and more recently I've been to see Park Safe, which is actually encouraging people to report dangerous parking, which causes killed and seriously injured to the police. So it's a very much a partnership role. I think our police are very, very engaging. The very much the great partnership workers. But the always at the cutting edge, always want to drive and do things.

Unknown

And I think for me as a PCC, it's a fantastic position to be in to support a very able and willing team to deliver and drive road safety in our force area. One of the people I'm thinking about and the Chief Constable Shine in May remember, and how could you forget? Natalie Horner. The UK Road Conference. I'm just explaining the impact that she had on the room that we were all in that afternoon.

Unknown

Sometimes I think it is easy for us to talk about numbers. We look at castle numbers all they go up and down and what we don't do is to equate that to people. We don't equate it to those loved ones who have been lost, those families whose future has been changed forever because sometimes or often every decision made by another road user that actually could have been changed.

Unknown

And I think that what that did was to bring that to life very much in a very vivid way. And of course, that kind of presentation, you know, works for some people. It doesn't work for others. No, huge respect that. But I do think that we must never forget just how awful road death or being seriously injured on the roads is both for those victims, of course, but also for those families and loved ones they need.

Unknown

Commissioner, let's talk about partnerships from your point of view. What value do they bring and which ones could you identify have really worked well for you? Well, obviously, we've got the casualty reduction partnership, which is a key role, which I think for me as a commissioner, the partnership is the really important one is the community. And with the Speed watch volunteers and the people out working alongside our neighborhood officers in all sorts of weathers to really help get that message out about road safety.

Unknown

However, we do work with, you know, the local authority, the highways and the agencies. But I mean, I used to be an area manager in the fire and rescue service, so I know how passionate the fire service are about reduce and killed and seriously injured on the roads because it's them that have to extricate the people out of the cab.

Unknown

So the cars before that can be helped by the ambulance service. So, you know, coming from that background, you wouldn't necessarily think that a partner would be involved or interested in road safety. You know, from from the public point of view, when you see it, you just see that actually doing more of that than the pit pulling people out of the fire.

Unknown

So it's important that we understand what we're trying to do, work together collectively across the air and get the key messages out. I think a key message, simple messages are really, really important to resonate with the public. Chief Constable It's not long till the next round of Police and Crime Commissioner elections. Let's just talk about and reflect on the relationship that works between a Chief Constable and the Police and Crime Commissioner where roads policing is concerned.

Unknown

You know, could you draw up an accurate kind of description of what what you would want from a police and crime commissioner and what they need to understand they can get from you? So I mean, I think that I would want what we currently have in terms of the national relationship between myself and Lisa Townsend, who obviously leads in her office and Nicole Joy and others, because I think that it is really constructive.

Unknown

I think because most people know somebody who has either been injured, seriously injured or killed on the road, I think is really real to people. But I also think that increasingly police and crime commissioners are including in their plans, their recognizing the devastation and the impact on the communities that they represent as as an elected person, and therefore honoring really quite enthused actually, about just how important many police and crime commissioners do take road crime, which of course, is incredibly important to all of us.

Unknown

And from your point of view, Commissioner, what should you be looking for from a chief to work with you where road safety and roads policing is concerned? I think obviously as a PCC, we're elected to represent the public, so that's when we have a manifesto. And I was really pleased in my manifesto that we included Operation Snap as a priority.

Unknown

And also, you know, through the precept, we consult on the precept as well and getting the funding for that. I think Joel was quite right. You know, everything can be a priority and it all requires financing. So if it's in a plan, your police chief Constable work, it's our plan. So we sign off on it so that we're not thinking, you know, we've only come together to publicize it.

Unknown

It's a joint plan, and then it's to deliver the plan. So it's really important that Pccs stand up for the community. But then we need the support of our chiefs to deliver it. So it's a very much a collaborative arrangement, a very strong partnership to deliver what matters to the communities most. Could I just conclude by getting you both to reflect on emerging threats?

Unknown

Chief Constable Shiner. Yeah. So I think in relation to emerging threats, I'm really concerned about legislation being able to keep up with technology because whether or not we look at e-scooters, whether we look at the emergence of the really fast and powerful electric bikes, call them what you would like to see, whether or not we look at those vehicles that can now park themselves once you're inside a parking lot.

Unknown

I don't think that legislation is necessarily keeping up with those vehicles and who's responsible and all sorts of other challenges which I think do put the public at risk or greater risk. And I make it less clear for everybody about what is required to expect stop them when they use those vehicles in the public space. I'm also concerned around we've heard a lot in the media recently about the cost of insurance going up.

Unknown

We're increasingly seeing people who are risking driving without insurance. And of course, that has implications for a lot of people. We're also seeing the upward trend in terms of those offenses against the fatal five or including fatal falling, such as are driving most of the influence of drink or drugs, speeding or using the mobile phone when at the wheel.

Unknown

And quite a lot of that is related as well to the delivery economy, the gig economy, if you like, where actually people are being squeezed more and more to get their deliveries done in a tighter and tighter timescale, which arguably is impacting upon the behaviors that they're needing to use when they're driving on the roads. There's quite a few emerging challenges for me that I really do think need picking up and need recognizing.

Unknown

Equally, I'm really enthused, particularly by some of the work that UK Road is doing, like probably 30 around some of those courses are really looking to the future around how we can put more preventative education in place, which hopefully should prevent those kind of signs in the future, I suppose to kind of give them the education once they've already happened.

Unknown

And from your point of view, Commissioner, emerging threats perhaps in your force area or wider? I think Joe's covered most of them. But the only thing is I think hopefully we've stem the tide. But I lead nationally on addictions and substance misuse and we were very, very concerned about the number of people taking nitrous oxide and driving on the road.

Unknown

And because you can lose consciousness. And there had been a number of cases reported where nitrous oxide are being involved. However, because the testing of it, the nitrous oxide, isn't there present when the tests have been done. However, as we were able to pick up in Holland that banned it and banned from sale because of not because of the drug, but because of the impact on road casualty reductions as well and the impact it was having on those killed on the roads.

Unknown

So I think my again, with that with the portfolio on and I do bring in to the roads police and it's the drugs and the alcohol and particularly the no synthetic drugs that's going to be used and the impact that that's going to have on the road users. So what I've advocated for both in roads, police and but also in the drugs with the Home Office, is more testing on the roads.

Unknown

And we have got a real opportunity with the new white paper that's coming out to consult, because I think if we test and somebody positive for drink or drug, they should actually pay for the test and pay for the administration. So we could do more. I think we should be able to take the license off them as soon as a test positive and give it back.

Unknown

If it's if not found a court rather than the other way around. Nobody should be driving if the test positive for drug and alcohol on our road. So I think we've got opportunities with new legislation to change that, to identify some of the gaps and the frustrations that we have that currently hamper our ability to prosecute and pursue those who were driving dangerously and recklessly on our roads.

Unknown

How quickly can we move? And to take some action on that, though? Well, we've been waiting. I mean, it's in the we waiting for the the consultation to be released and I'm sure Jo May, Lee, Alyssa and all the PCC will be really lobbying for that change. We have got a change of government things can, you know, it's all down to progress, but if we advocate for it, we have to make the changes into the legislation so these things don't happen overnight, unfortunately.

Unknown

But once it's in train and we can start to have that conversation, we can make the changes that a saw needed to make our roads safer and to reduce those killed and seriously injured on our roads. I almost gave you a round of applause for that last one. Then. Can be no better prevention or deterrent than roadside disqualification in certain circumstances.

Unknown

And testing positive for drugs is definitely one of those. Not only that, but you can also reduce some of the demand that's going into the criminal justice system because if you've already done the roadside disqualification and then you have a guilty plea, as long as there's no other aggravating factors that can be dealt with outside of the court system.

Unknown

And that's what we should be trying to achieve. It happens already. I've seen it in Norway and other countries where it's just it's roadside evidential drug testers. They pull them out of the boot of the car 10 minutes later, job done. And why not? Why not? Well, I think you've got you've got two leads here and I'm sure you've got obviously, Lisa's support as well.

Unknown

And, you know, if we can make a difference and we've got a solution, I think the government are listening to what will make a difference. This will make a difference. Jo said that the experience that we said that we've got the evidence that says so, let's make it happen. Last word about community speed. Watch. Durham is a leading force.

Unknown

Sussex is an enthusiastic force. It has been held back since the pandemic. What's your message to community speed? Watch people and how supportive are you of community speed watch in the fight against the fatal five, and particularly in speeding? I'm hugely supportive of them and my main message to them would be, Thank you, because they're all volunteers who go out there and all weathers and sometimes get, get, get a bit of abuse for it, frankly, from the public who don't actually see the really valuable job that they are doing to reduce speed on on their local roads.

Unknown

I met with all of them online a couple of weeks ago to be able to say thank you to them and also to listen to some of the challenges and opportunities that we might have with that group in the future. And I can tell you, they're really bright, experienced, enthusiastic, passionate people who just want others to slow down, take that personal responsibility so that we can reduce chaos always on the roads around our own communities.

Unknown

And in Durham, that's quite a high tech approach to CCW, isn't that, Commissioner? Yeah. We also, as we do, we do provide the equipment to do the road side and but more recently we've helped with partners and counselors and and agencies. We've got mobile speed watch funds, so it gives them a lot more mobile devices that can sit in the car, sit in the van, and the equipment lets people know that the speed and it's picked up straight away to obviously issue the the letters of the warning, etc..

Unknown

But when it's not being used, it can be used by our neighborhood officers and the next iteration the next is to look into have a CCTV camera in there as well to be deployed. So I think the volunteers are priceless and sometimes say, well, you know, you couldn't put a price on them because they'd do that day in, day out in all the weathers.

Unknown

And I think it's really, really important that we recognize the work that we do and give them the technology. I think this is where PC sees officers come in. If there is some innovation, something we can try that can come to the officers and pcsos will make it happen. If there's something we can do to support local volunteers who are helping to make our roads safe, we will absolutely bend over backwards to do that.

Unknown

Joy. Allen Durham, Police and Crime Commissioner. And we also heard from Chief Constable Jo Shiner, and that concludes this week's episode. Do like and share the podcast and urge your colleagues and friends to do the same or simply listen via the project website. Next week we meet Surrey PCC Lisa Townsend, who's the national lead for Roads Policing, and we're up in the air with a Devon ambulance.

Unknown

It's all part of our theme for the season, my role in the safe System. For me. James Luckhurst. Thanks for listening and be sure to join us next time.