Nell Derick Debevoise joins us to discuss a transformative approach to leadership that centers on the power of subtraction. She shares insights from her unique framework, "Lead in 3D," which encourages leaders to align their time, energy, and attention across personal, team, and world dimensions. Nell emphasizes that to achieve true productivity and avoid burnout, leaders must be willing to let go of non-essential tasks. Through her own journey and a near-accident that changed her perspective, she advocates for intentional pauses to reassess priorities and focus on what truly matters. Tune in to discover how subtraction might just be the secret ingredient to becoming an unstoppable leader. Nell Derick Debevoise's insights into leadership and personal well-being are both refreshing and enlightening. During our engaging conversation, we delve into her unique approach of using subtraction as a tool for enhancing productivity and focus. Nell, a seasoned advisor to purpose-driven leaders, introduces her 'Lead in 3D' framework, which emphasizes the importance of aligning personal, professional, and global dimensions of life. She shares a pivotal moment that shaped her understanding of the necessity to 'stop' in order to truly speed up our progress. This concept might sound counterintuitive, but as Nell elaborates, it becomes clear that taking the time to assess our commitments and letting go of less impactful activities can lead to greater efficiency and a more fulfilling life. We explore practical steps for leaders to implement this subtraction mindset, including the 'stop, drop, and roll' method, which encourages intentional decision-making and prioritization. By the end of our discussion, listeners will be inspired to rethink their daily routines and consider how they can create space for what truly matters, ultimately leading to unstoppable success in both their personal and professional lives.

Takeaways:

1. Nell Debevoise emphasizes the importance of subtraction in a world focused on addition, suggesting that leaders must first stop to reassess their priorities.
2. The concept of 'leading in 3D' encourages leaders to align their time, energy, and attention for sustainable success and personal well-being.
3. Jaclyn and Nell discuss how multitasking can actually hinder productivity, advocating for single-task focus to enhance effectiveness in leadership roles.
4. Realigning priorities through subtraction can empower leaders to make better decisions and lead with greater clarity and purpose.

Connect with Nell Today!

1. nell3d.com
2. https://www.linkedin.com/in/nell3d/
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Jaclyn Strominger

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Hello, everybody, and welcome to another amazing episode of Unstoppable Success.

I'm your host, Jacqueline Schominger, and on this podcast, we hear from amazing leaders, influential people out in the universe that are doing great things and who have amazing insights, tips, tricks, and all the things to help us be unstoppable and have unstoppable success and create leaders who are amazing so that we actually make a better world.

And today, I have the absolute pleasure of introducing you to Nell, Derek.

Deb.

Oh, my God, I did it wrong again.

I can't do it now because I want to say the French way.

Debava voice.

Debavois.

Dewey.

There you go.

But I'm, like, looking at it, it's like I'm going French on you.

I can't tell.

And I never even took French, but I just.

Anyway, let me tell you a little bit about Nell, because she is truly, truly remarkable.

So about Nell, first of all, she is a keynote speaker.

She's an advisor to purpose driven leaders who want extraordinary results without burnout.

She created the the lead in 3D framework to help leaders align their time, energy, and attention across the me, we, and world dimensions driving sustainable performance, well being and impact.

And she is here to talk to us all about how we can use subtraction to make us go faster.

Right.

Just that.

So welcome and sorry about the name.

They.

I'm like.

I was like, wait a minute, you're

not the first Jacqueline.

So absolutely no pressure, no worries at all.

You got it.

Nel3d to friends.

So, listeners, you can find me by Nel3d.

No need to get all the syllables.

All right, so Nell, tell us, like, how did you get to this point of, like, coming up with, you know, this whole subtraction method and, you know, like, where did it come from?

Yeah, well, most immediately, there's.

There's some more backstory, and we can dig into the archives if we feel like that's helpful.

But for right now, and especially, you know, when I read about the Unstoppable podcast and this idea of unstoppable success, I'm like, oh, this is perfect, because, you know, it looks a little counterintuitive because my first stop is stop, but that's what you need to get unstoppable.

So for me, self declared gold star junkie, right?

Harvard and all the things a decade of not kind of a necessarily traditional post Harvard life through corporate, but in the nonprofit space really, like, unstoppable impact.

How can I change the world more and more and more directly for 10 years.

I was just trying to get to the root of impactful work.

And I got pretty close running a community center in the west bank of Palestine, serving refugee moms and kids and working for mental health.

And we were for sure changing lives.

It was mostly the staff that I hired who did that, who were social workers and amazing people, hit a wall with that and realized that I was actually kind of uniquely positioned to help leaders in the corporate world, particularly in the us to make their work more healthy and impactful.

And it looked lot different from like a community center for refugee communities, but was a little different, but was more aligned to me and thus more impactful because it fit my life and my skills and my preferences better.

And so I did that for, for 10 years.

And that's where this idea of leading in 3D came.

And I got really aligned, really clear.

Loved the speaking and the advisory that I was doing.

And, you know, it was just incredible work.

And so I was high as a kite, having a great time, having a great life, got married a second and was building a step family that was really rewarding and amazing.

And one morning I'm on the way to the trainer.

It's Friday, it's summer, it's very quiet on the roads, there's no traffic, which drives me nuts.

I'm perimenopausal, so I'm like, I need to build muscle, so I'm going to get strong.

And I have a great trainer.

And I glance down at my cell phone long enough to drift into the left lane and go head on into a 20 ton landscaping truck.

Oh, shit.

That is the correct response.

Angels were on like full duty.

And so I walked away unharmed, as did the three people in the truck.

They were, you know, kind of eight feet above me, so they were okay.

The firefighters who cleared the scene were pretty surprised.

My car was certainly totaled.

And so that moment, Jacqueline, was a really loud, literal impact.

Realizing that no matter how aligned, how purposeful, how three dimensional, if we're doing too much, it's a.

There's a literal physical danger to us and our well being, but also the people around us, right?

And so it's in these last two years that this layer and filter of subtraction has been the muscle that I'm really focused on building and helping other women largely, but helpers, you know, the people who want to help are the ones most at risk of doing too much.

And we really need the helpers right now.

And so that has kind of flipped me into subtraction activist mode of like, no this is really urgent.

We all need to be building this muscle of subtraction.

Okay.

So, so glad that you survived.

Obviously that was like huge like craziness, like with the, you know, it's like it's a matter like what can happen in a nanosecond.

Like you just don't think it.

Right.

Reminds me of a book that I read.

I'm not going to go into it but.

Because it was like a pleasure book.

But anyway.

But you always hear the things like you have to slow down to go fast.

Right.

You or.

And then you hear these.

At least I hear them a lot more these days.

Like multitasking is really not supposed to be for anybody.

I don't care what they say about women or men, nobody should multitask.

We should be single task, you know, and focus on the singular.

So, so, so how does like those things kind of play into what you're sharing with leaders?

Yeah, so that I think that, you know, I love the, the, the version I've heard is slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

And so I think that's kind of the link between them that I really resonate with.

Because to me the smooth is the alignment piece.

Right.

And so that's kind of, that comes from this idea of 3D.

Right.

So in my earlier life I was single mindedly focused on impact or world in my model now.

Right.

And what that resulted in was life changing impact for me and the people that I was serving.

You know, Absolutely.

Clearly.

Make no mistake, the moms who say, you know, Ahmed is no longer suicidal at 7 years old old, you know, like life changing impact.

And then I missed my dad's funeral because I didn't choose to take the time or spend the money to get to California from the Middle East.

And within that year my marriage fell apart.

So, you know, some red flags around the we dimension of my life.

There were quieter yellow flags around the professional we.

Right.

I was not getting the kind of exposure and mentorship and networking that I was seeing my friends in London or New York getting.

And so as I approached 30, that started to become concerning.

And so there was a little red flag on the professional we.

And then the me, I was sick all that winter, you know, that's not normal.

Like, yeah, we didn't have great insulation, but like, you can't battle a cold for four months.

That's a red flag, you know, and so I learned after that and then shared like, we need to be aligned.

And to me it's that alignment that gives us smoothness.

Right.

When you're working on a path toward things that matter to you.

In all three of these dimensions, you can really start flowing.

Right.

And I'm sure people have felt that, whether it's at a volunteer event that you're doing with colleagues to something that really matters to your heart.

There's that 3D, right.

Skills.

And you know it's going to be a little better for the world because it's better for your suppliers, for example.

Right.

It doesn't have to be about, like, Mother Teresa or West bank mental health.

We find these moments of alignment all the time.

And so that's the smooth piece, and it's most motivating.

Right.

It tracks perfectly with the psychology of intrinsic motivation.

Having autonomy, mastery and purpose is me, we and world.

So it's not surprising that this is a real driver.

Right, Right.

The.

The second piece that I'll just say briefly is the multitasking.

What I've heard is from a neurological perspective, there's literally no such thing.

We are always single tasking.

If you're multitasking, you're switching very quickly between them, but the switching cost is like two to seven minutes, actually, for your brain to catch up.

And so when you do the math, you're like, yeah, I'm sending emails on the zoom call.

You've checked out of the zoom call, and it'll take you two to seven minutes to dive back in.

And there will probably be a typo in that email, or at least it won't be as thoughtful as you want it to be.

The reframe that I've seen is that when you align, get smooth on these three dimensions, you.

Your single task can multitask.

So the way I run this meeting can be rewarding to me as a person because it's intellectually stimulating, or it's grounding because I do mindfulness.

It can advance my we, maybe even my personal we.

Right.

If I make sure that it doesn't creep into dinner time and I hold that boundary that I'm serving my team and my family.

And again, maybe there's some world ripple, if nothing other than what you and I started with, that better work makes a better world.

Right.

And so by being a good, thoughtful leader, I'm sending those humans out into the world a little more patient, a little less burnt out, and that's good for how they drive, maybe to bring it full circle.

So what do you feel is the biggest pushback did you get with the leaders that you're.

That you're working with?

There's so much going on there's no way I can do less.

That's a.

That's a myth.

Right.

Which is fair.

There is a lot going on.

It's not easy.

Right.

And so how do you walk people through eliminating.

Yeah.

So a few things.

You know, the first thing I say is that this is not subtraction.

Like the four hour work week.

Right.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Like, if that's your goal.

Amen.

Hallelujah.

Tim Ferriss is your guru and he's made it really clear.

Right.

And a lot of people have followed him.

I am very committed to the change I want to have through my work.

And I don't live to work.

I work to live.

And there are other things that matter too.

And I know the other parts of my life make me a better leader and worker in the ways I show up there.

But I am going to spend four to 12 hours a day on my work because I love it and it's urgent to me.

And it's hard.

And input does have a correlation with output, not one to one.

I think we can really get exponential if we're smart and aligned.

So it's not about just like.

Or it's also not about like, let them, like, just do your thing and like, let them.

If that has resonated and worked.

Amen.

More power to you and to her.

No, Shade, that's not what I find I need and it's not what I find.

The gold star junkies that I'm working with need to navigate this very complicated world of being a leader and being a human.

Right.

So the three step.

Maybe we just get right into the stop, drop and roll.

Because I think that explains the nuance of subtraction.

Okay, so step one is stop, Right?

And so to be unstoppable, you gotta stop.

Maybe that's our, like, new slogan.

Together jointly.

Right?

Yes, I know.

I totally get it.

Right.

We're headed to unstoppable.

But first you gotta stop by choice.

Not by a car accident or cancer or the death of a.

Right.

There's all these things that artificially stop us.

If you're a leader who cares about your impact, why not make the choice to stop yourself before those horrific things happen?

So stop is not about, like, go meditate on the mountain and take a retreat for a month again.

If you want to do that, feel free.

My stop in subtraction is in your seat right here, right now, eyes wide open.

Stop and gather some data.

The proxy for this step is like, how is it really going?

Is what I Invite people to ask.

And it's not easy to do because there is so much coming at us and red alerts and client demands and a crazy economy and geopolitical risk.

Like I'm not minimizing any of that.

But to go fast and be unstoppable, we have to check in with like my body, my mind, my relationships, my deliverables.

And that data might be anything.

It might be like I feel sick to my stomach.

It might be clients are calling me back the way they used to.

It might be my boss seems to have shifted in his loyalty or her reputation.

Whatever the data is is right.

But gather some data about the thing you're thinking about subtracting and then step two is drop, which is where we experiment with letting go of something very possibly something very small.

Right?

So it's not again, it's not that like extreme self protecting boundary snarky, catchy, trendy subtraction.

It's based on real data and it's done as an experiment so that we don't, you know, blow our lives up.

And then finally and really importantly is role.

And this is where the mandate here is to connect the dots and to really see like what does it mean that I'm not doing that thing?

What have the ripples been on my relationships, on my performance, on my impact on the world?

Maybe I'm still sick and maybe I actually really miss that meeting.

That felt kind of inconsequential.

I don't have decision making autonomy.

You know, I'm not speaking, I'm not driving the agenda.

But actually I realized that, you know, in the two or three minutes before we dove into the agenda, I had some valuable hangout time with that person in the other function whose team I want to move on to.

And so the 45 minutes are kind of a bummer.

Maybe I actually can multitask because I'm not having decision making autonomy.

And the AI notes are pretty darn good.

So if I miss something or do have, I'll get those.

But to show up and get those two or three minutes have a lot of value.

So maybe that's a meeting that feels useless, that feels, you know, but actually I'm going to hold on to it, right?

On the other hand, maybe I don't go and I don't miss a thing and I clear my inbox or I read some resources and research from a competitor that I hadn't gotten to read otherwise and no one notices I wasn't there.

The outcome of that subtraction experiment is I have 45 minutes back.

I don't have 15 minutes after to clear the mental fog of sitting through a 45 minutes that felt useless.

And I can do something else with it.

So that's the form of subtraction.

And once I get into it, people are able to be like, okay, touche.

You're helping me be more productive with less input, essentially clearing the wheat from the chaff.

You know, I love this.

You know, of course, you know, the way that I'm thinking, it's.

It's so important to be, you know, thinking about your own personal values and what, what's driving you.

Right.

And.

And it's so important, and I think so many of us forget about our values, but it's, you know, and I like what you said just about that, about being in the meetings.

We don't have to be in every single meeting.

Right?

We don't.

But our.

It might be a better use of our time and be.

We might be more productive if we don't attend every single meeting and graciously bow out and say to somebody, I'm not like, let them know I'm not going to be at that meeting.

I will look at the notes, I will respond.

But I, but, but there's enough representation in the room, right?

Like, whatever that is.

Right.

But making sure that you have to be aligned with your actions based on what you want, without get to get out of your own personal job and what you're experiencing and the rooms that

you're entering, a thousand percent.

And again, the role keeps going and going and going.

So just to run with this a little further, you know, there's so many other opportunities, like, to your point, you can bow out gracefully and actually empower someone.

Right.

Maybe one of your direct reports is sitting in there or appear and say, you know, I really think you're more tapped into this than I am.

I totally trust you to let me know if I miss anything or if I do need to be aware of something in particular.

But you've got this right.

That's actually empowering.

It's a learning moment.

And then it's just efficiency for the organization because you're not burning a second person, hour or person, 45 minutes in that literal same meeting.

Right.

So there's that and then, you know, keep rolling.

And there's a modeling of saying, I value my time and I'm committed to using it to the best possible effect.

And downstream, I want you to do the same.

And upstream, which is where people say, I can't tell my boss I'm not going to that meeting.

I'm like, maybe, you know, you're, you know your boss better than I like, don't get yourself fired on my account.

But to reframe, if you came to your boss and said, I am so conscious of wanting to do the best job possible with the hours in my day, I've noticed that blank, blank, blank.

This meeting is not the highest and best use of my time.

I'm wondering if you think I could be researching new clients, for example, checking the law, the legal contract.

If you're a lawyer.

Right.

Whatever that is, show me a boss who's not like God, thank you for thinking critically about the arbitrage on your time and maybe I know something you don't and I need you in that meeting.

Right, Great.

I'll be there.

Right.

No harm, no foul.

Right.

But when, once we start doing this critical thinking, the role, the ripples are huge.

But the key thing that you just said though, there's one key component and listeners, I think that I feel like I can't hit this home hard enough.

It's communication, right?

Like it's taking the time to communicate and act on and speak with purpose.

To say to the, to speak up to the person that you're is your leader or person and also to people that are on your team or, or maybe they're spokes on a wheel, you know, they're an arm's length away from you in a different division, whatever it is.

But it's using communication critically.

Correct.

And the stop piece.

Right.

And that how is it really going question is designed to get at like this really absurd.

Especially in an AI powered age and workplace, that presence or always on or always present or more hands or more work is better, right?

Yeah, it's right.

Like why would we just assume that all of us showing up all the time is better, right.

Because again, the AI note taker can be there for essentially free and spread that out to the rest of us.

So you know, again, there's plenty of reasons to be in a meeting.

I'm not saying it never matters or that no one should be there.

There's no meeting if no one's there with only the AI NoteTaker.

But there are a lot of ways that that stopping to check that assumption is really an unlock.

And I think there's another thing that is also really important is to have the confidence to not be in every meeting.

And that's really important.

And as you were sharing, I think it's another key note listeners to really understand it's empowering to help other people, whether they're direct to you or a spoke from you.

If you can empower other people, that's a sign of leadership.

You know, it's, you know, I've used the saying, and it's do delegate, delay or ditch.

Right?

So is it something you need to do, delay, you know, can you delegate it?

Or maybe it's to share the responsibility with somebody else, right?

And.

And then in this case, and then maybe subtract something off of your plate so that something that is on your plate can be done with more vigor.

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

The piece.

You know, when, again, when I saw Unstoppable, I was.

So the wires were just flickering with all that we could get into.

And the one, the one thing in particular, you know, I talk a lot about this idea of diminishing returns, right?

And it's an economic law, right?

So I don't know.

I learned it with a farmer, right?

And so this farmer is like, I need to make more money for my family.

My kids are going to school, whatever.

Great.

And so she's like, well, I'm going to rent some more land.

I'll lease the plot next door.

It's available for lease, I'll lease it.

Okay, fair, great play.

But if she doesn't get more seeds and hire more people to plant this new leased land and then harvest whatever fruit she may grow or vegetable, that land is useless, right?

And so if we just go to more meetings, as we get more responsibility and more visibility through the organization, us simply sitting in more meetings has a diminishing return, Right?

At first we're in this meeting and we can add thoughts, we learn things, we meet people and that goes up and up and we get a return on that.

But we know from economics that the investment in a single dimension flattens out.

But we're gold star junkies.

We've been trained and rewarded to do more and get bigger roles and get bigger clients and get more clients and get more direct reports on and on and on.

And so that's what we do when we feel something slipping.

We're like, I should do more.

I should be more in the meeting.

I should be in the meeting twice, whatever it is.

But actually what you need to do is diversify your investment and realize that my power now is going to come from delegating, from saying, hey, I trust you.

You go do that and come back to me, right?

That's where we can have more return, right?

You're not going to grow more or less if you don't actually do the activity to actually get you the more.

Like, if you don't plant the seed, you're not getting more fruit or vegetables.

If you don't pick up the phone and.

Or prospect for more clients, you're not getting more clients.

I mean, like, you know, great.

If all you do is prospect for clients and don't save any time to follow up, you're going to lose those clients real quick.

Right.

So there's, you know, I've.

I've heard the.

And I've.

I feel like this is like an important thing too.

Is.

Is.

I don't know if you have people have said this to you or something that you share.

Is business should be boring in a sense.

Right.

Like in the sense of routine.

Right.

Like if you can have those routines, like maybe you want to do certain things on Monday, you're going to do certain things on Tuesday, you know, and certain things on Wednesday, whatever, so that it creates a routine and pattern so that you actually can do things.

Yeah, I think that's super fair.

And I would add, especially in a context like today where everything is shifting so fast, I really.

Those stops, right.

Whether it's 30 minutes on Monday to plan your week or whether it's 30 seconds as you dial into a zoom call and wait for the page to load.

Right.

Whatever those stops are to examine at least the assumptions that you're making.

How's it really going?

Right.

Not fishing for change.

If it's really going good, don't reinvent the wheel.

Right.

That's an old saying that's there for a reason.

And your point, like saving willpower by knowing it's Tuesday, I'm reaching out.

It's Wednesday.

I'm working internally on research and thinking, whatever that is for you and is well proven and well documented.

And I just feel like there has to be the asterisk to make sure that we're not too deep in these habits that in today's world might be outdated.

Will be outdated.

Right.

And whether that's a week from now, a year from now, or five years from now, we have to have some kind of accountability to ourselves and to our team and to the work to make sure that we're not in a rut that is outdated and suboptimally effective.

Yeah.

So true.

I love everything that you're doing.

So what is your biggest thing that you want to do for you now, like in the next 18 months?

The book.

So I'm deep in work with my agent on the proposal, which is the first step.

And so, you know, we'll kind of pull together the idea, but also the market.

You know, that's very much a marketing document really and take that out on submission this spring to see the right publisher fit.

So that's all very exciting.

It's, you know, it's a relatively long term cycle.

My hope is that we're looking at fall of 27 for the actual release of that.

And in the meantime I am playing a lot with the idea to make sure that the book is really, you know, the top 10% of the ideas and the tools and the examples that are going to be most impactful for readers.

So that's what I do on my sub stack and that's a kind of daily commitment.

So talk a little bit about the substack.

So it's my laboratory, it's where I am real time practicing subtraction.

Because again, 44 years of addition, I'm still very much working on this new muscle and lens of subtraction myself and now have the joy and the privilege and the challenge of doing it real time with other fabulous, big hearted and ambitious leaders who are recognizing the same ceiling of diminishing returns and wanting to get beyond it.

So there's two pieces a week.

One is an article with a voiceover depending on people's preference of medium.

And then on Wednesdays it's a video either just me opining or sometimes with a fabulous guest who's an expert in a certain topic.

And we work through important big topics like power this month and think about subtraction.

It's obviously not subtracting power because I care about my, you know, the helpers that I work with.

I want you to be really powerful so that you can be unsubscribe, unstoppable and successful among other things.

And there's a lot of noise and junk that has piled up around important topics like power or wealth next month or love last month.

And so we're trying to, you know, we do this like month long kind of excavation of like what's the nugget here that we want to build and lean into and honor and deploy of power and what's the noise and the shoulds and these outdated habits that are just making power look scary or evil or inefficient or whatever it might be so that we can get to the root.

And yeah, so that's the substack we play right now.

We daily practice.

Every morning at 8:08 a little bite sized prompt goes out with a song.

So it's very fun.

There's a dance break implied in the exercise.

And we go through, Tuesdays are stopped, Wednesday's our drop and Thursday's our roll.

And then the rest of it is more, you know, just integration and context setting.

Because I have seen that, like, this is a very logical process.

It's by definition not rocket science.

Right.

It's kind of a throwback to our childhoods, but it's not natural.

And so this daily weekly rhythm, I mean, I'm halfway through, I'm changed in terms of how much more facile I've become with this idea of subtraction and how much more I see it effortlessly.

And so I can both be boring and routine, but without losing the remembrance to think to make sure I'm not adding something unhelpful.

Yeah, that's awesome.

I love what you're doing.

I think it's absolutely fantastic.

And it is so important to have out there in the world.

So how can all of our listeners connect with you and get more of all the greatness?

So, nell3d.com is the easy kind of landing page again.

I really.

If you're interested in making this yours, the substack is definitely where it's and the vast majority of everything is just free and available.

I'll share with you, Jaclyn, for listeners, a guest pass so that your listeners can come play for 90 days at least and see.

P.S.

a lot of employers at this point will reimburse very affordable, like $80 a year learning tools like what my substack is.

So that's an option.

And then I'm very easy to find on LinkedIn because of my multisyllabic name.

So certainly reach out there and connect as well.

Yep.

And I will put all of those things in the show notes.

So listeners, please do me the favor.

Please connect with Nell.

She's absolutely amazing.

And please also do me the other favor of sharing this episode with other friends, leaders, business associates.

It is so important.

It's important work and aligns perfectly with what we believe here, which is that we need to create better leaders.

And better leaders creates a better world and a happier one at that.

Right?

You know?

So, listeners, this is unstoppable success.

I'm your host, Jacqueline Strominger.

And Nell, thank you so much for being an amazing guest.

I could talk to you for hours.

Such a pleasure, Jacqueline.

Thank you.

Great conversation.

Thank you, guys.

All right, again, listeners, please make sure you share.