Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 18 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

Taster

This week, it's something a bit different. I was invited to be a guest on the Shit Shower and Self-Care Podcast by Dr Steve Jones. Now Steve is a friend of the show. He's already been on People Soup talking about his brilliant book, ACT made Yorkshire. Since then - he's got the podcast bug and launched his own, where with his guests he explores

What does it mean to be a man?

What does mental health mean to men?

How are we able to talk more about the stuff that we might otherwise keep tucked away at the back of our sock drawer?

Now our chat was spread across two episodes so I thought I'd share the second one - and just to flag - I use the f word on more than one occasion in the chat. I also reflect on my experience of being a gay man in the workplace, gay role models when I was growing up and how we're all still learning in the workplace.

Ross - take 2 0 (copy) (1)

[00:00:06] Ross: And I was working, I was meeting more people, a wider variety of people and thinking Oh right, okay. They still took me a while to, to come out because I used to hear people talking about other people in the office, maybe fellas who were quite camp.

[00:00:46] Ross: I might not be as, as Mr. Humphreys, but this is who I am. And starting, starting to come out to people in the workplace. and I didn't know how to do it. The first, I remember the first people I came out to in the workplace were kind of people I was close to. And I, and it sounds so deaf saying this now, but I would say to them, um, I've got something I want to tell you and I'm not sure how you're gonna take it.

[00:01:40] Ross: What does mental health mean to man? and how are we able to talk more about the stuff that we might otherwise keep tucked away at the back of our sock drawer

[00:02:05] Ross: and coincidentally, I'm recording this episode in the house where I grew. I'm visiting my dad, big G for the weekend and as ever for your audio pleasure, I'm recording it under the duvet to give you the hopefully the best audio quality, which is bizarre cuz it's also where I used to read my sister's copy of Upper fourth Mallory Towers about a girl's public school.

[00:03:23] Ross: and thanks so much to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed, perhaps talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast. With your help, we can reach more people with stuff that could be useful. You can find out all about the show, including the show notes and transcripts@rossmcintosh.co.uk and also on uh, captivate podcast website at people soup dot captivate dot f. But for now, get a brew on and have a listen to me as a guest on the Shit Shower and Shave podcast with Dr.

[00:03:59] Steve: [00:04:00] Welcome to the Shit Shower and Self-Care podcast, A place for men to talk about the stuff that matters. But now grab yourself a drink and let's crack on.

[00:04:52] Steve: in terms of. , sort of your life, your experience as, as part of you as a gay man working in, well, multiple organizations and just sort of how, how you might have experienced different things or how that might have impacted on, on your experiences at work.

[00:05:23] Ross: everyone's, everyone's story is different. Anyone who's listening whose L G B T will have their own perceptions and stories of what's happened to them in the workplace. And there's a, there's a, there is an element of, because they work with lots of different organizations, there's a freelancer, there's always an element that I'm far less worried about.

[00:06:15] Ross: And now that. rather than being so intentional now, it's kind of much more just woven into how I am and I am far less concerned about it. But I think growing up in a, a small village in the Northeast, in the kind of 1970s, eighties, and not really seeing any role models, Not any role models on tally or in politics?

[00:07:16] Ross: A feeling of otherness. And I think not having role models didn't really help. The role models. We were mentioned, we were chatting about this on email, but the role models I can think of who probably weren't that helpful, but I do look on with great fondness, were role models from a sitcom. Is it a sitcom?

[00:08:09] Ross: Then you'll remember a program called The Generation Game. Mm-hmm. Steve. But once upon a time it was Bruce Forsyth. Then it was a fellow called Larry Grayson, who was camp as a row of tents, and it was outrageous, the things he said, outrageous. And I think my parents had no clue. , they were just thinking, oh, he's a funny fella, isn't he funny?

[00:09:07] Ross: And then I guess the other one is, is thinking about, there used to be this program called Summertime Special in the summer where there were, there were male dancers who were perhaps they quite expressive and wearing fancy outfits. And I used to think, oh, aren't they amazing? And then feeling a bit like, oh, when my dad would go look at them panzi potters, and.

[00:09:57] Ross: And then, , by this time I was in the [00:10:00] workplace. So while I was at uni, I was still trying to work out what the hell is going on here and, and didn't come out at uni. Didn't, didn't really come out to myself either. And then once I'd started working, it kind of dawned on me, I was in Big London, well, big London, I say Big London.

[00:10:52] Ross: A bit like those role models, like. Mr. Humphreys, and they would be quite outrageous in the office. And people would say things like, oh, keep your backs to the wall around him, or Shirtlifter, things like that. Now, okay, well that's not very nice. And then kind of coming to terms with, well actually I'm one of them too.

[00:11:42] Ross: And, and if you don't want to be friends with me anymore, that's okay. and looking back on younger Ross saying that to people who really cared about him and loved him, like I say, it feels daft. And of course no one ever said, right, that's it, mate. Fuck off . But it was, [00:12:00] but it was like,

[00:12:11] Ross: No. And there was, there was no, yeah. I talk, I mentioned role models from pop. I mean, I used to love, I still do the Communards, erasure, proud gay men. People like Mark Armand as well, but they were just so exotic and talking about things and singing songs about love between two men. It was just like, oh, I couldn't, I couldn't even contemplate that.

[00:13:23] Ross: So we had to stay later. So everyone was phoning home. And so I, my husband and I came back and I said to the project leader, I didn't know that well, and the man, and then I said, oh, just phone. Phone my husband to tell him I'll be late. And not to, not to wait for me to have his dinner. And he went . He said, husband, you met your phone, your wife.

[00:14:10] Ross: And then couple more thoughts, uh, round a senior table. And we were waiting for a minister to arrive. Uh, it was Peter Mandelson and he was visiting a port that day and he was late for a meeting with me and some senior people, and he was coming back. I think it was Portsmouth. I can't quite remember. and a woman on the opposite side of the table said, um, oh, he's probably been detained looking at sailors down by the port.

[00:15:05] Steve: How the principle of it, whether it, whether you are in a, if you are, feel, you know, regardless of where you are.

[00:15:20] Ross: mm-hmm. and, and what if there was someone else in that meeting who was a gay man who was not out and they heard talk like that and they thought right. Let's keep the door closed on that wardrobe. I'm not coming out. Look what happens. I'm not welcome here. So

[00:15:58] Steve: Sort of gay men or gay [00:16:00] women, whether it's about basically if we go for non-white straight people and whatever, or anything that fits the very, very middle of yeah, what is expected, and I'm saying in expected and inverted commerce and there's a sense of, well, there's, it's fine. There's no one, no one. . Mm.

[00:16:58] Steve: And this thing about watching your language and understanding the harm that words can do, even if it's not directly offensive, it can still influence someone else's story.

[00:17:29] Ross: He says what he sees, he speaks his mind. We're never gonna change him. And he was only joking. And no, actually you are, you are negating someone else in the workplace. You're being offensive and it's not accept.

[00:18:03] Steve: When we were first talking, I remember I heard the word husband, sort of Hmm. Flipping into a conversation as, as you, as you mentioned, that just, just happened. You know, it's part of experience. and immediately my mind started doing mental gymnastics of have I said anything? Have I made any assumptions?

[00:18:44] Steve: you know, you're not going to say any of those things. You know that they, if you, they are not true reflections of you, and yet your mind still goes, what if you do? But all that came from an assumption that I wasn't even aware I was making at the time.

[00:19:20] Ross: Yeah, and I think people can sometimes feel like they're sort of over vigilant about their behavior or the vocabulary, and I w I wouldn't like to create that.

[00:20:04] Ross: But I just want to let you know. , it, it, it might be impacting on other people who are overhearing our conversation. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that that clearly, but Do you get what I mean?

[00:20:35] Steve: A willingness to, yes, this might feel uncomfortable or it might feel awkward. Well, that's okay. It can feel like that. It can feel difficult, and you've got a willingness to, to turn towards that conversation and understand why you are doing something might offend someone else, and to understand that both ways.

[00:21:36] Ross: And even if I have to practice it a couple of times with them, I said, would you just, would you just help me out? Cause I want to get this right and, and, and, and kind of get a bit of coaching from them in, in the pronunciation. And for me, that's important for them. I don't want. Shorten it. I want to try and deliver it the way as best I can, [00:22:00] and I think there's, there's, there's so much learning for us all about facets.

[00:22:45] Ross: The thing is that reset

[00:23:14] Ross: What do I do about. I, I love the way you've just described that. Cause I think that's, that's the, that's almost like the, the roadmap through it is to be aware. Notice when you haven't represented yourself and respected the other person and learn from that. Be prepared to, to turn towards that and, and learn from them.

[00:23:51] Steve: Well, that feels like a really lovely place to bring that part of a conversation [00:24:00] to cl to a close, having that little roadmap. Hmm. Yeah. I suppose before we move on, is there anything, anything particular that's popped up or anything that you want to make sure.

[00:24:18] Ross: I don't think so. I think it's been a lovely conversation so far. Really. It's gone in in some ways I wasn't expecting and other ways I was, and it's been great. Thank you for guiding us.

[00:24:42] Steve: Joint music will play and we'll be back in a second.

[00:25:34] Steve: Hmm. So I'm gonna hand that over to Ross to maybe expand on, if that's okay.

[00:25:46] Steve: character? People keep asking this. I might have to put rules on this, but No, no, go for it.

[00:26:05] Ross: But I still hold them with much fondness and that's the characters of Mr. Humphreys in. Are you being served and played by John Inman and Larry Grayson on the generation game? Mm-hmm. Outrageously camp and silly and funny and not particularly helpful role models, but they did show there was another way to be and they were quite exuberant and joyful and funny, so that in that aspect they were role models for a way of being and, and a different form of masculinity.

[00:27:19] Ross: I loved it for the art, but I loved him for his, like clock us his courage and his curiosity and his sense of justice and writing wrongs. So that was kind of an inspiration for me about how a well a boy, how a, a man or a vision of masculinity, and it was great art. as well. Such beautiful art. And I re, I still remember it coming on the tally and they used to go s Adventures of Tin Tin, except I [00:28:00] thought when I was watching it was Thursdays Adventures of Tin Tin.

[00:28:38] Ross: Whether they're role modeling for. Thousands or millions in sports, in art, in politics, in public life, or whether they're role modeling for themselves or one other person. I'd like to say thank you for being a role model for us all and for helping us all learn and grow.

[00:29:26] Steve: They're, yes, they might be real, but they still feel, they can feel fictional in some way because we don't have that. Connection. Do we mm-hmm. . So to see that, and I, I like the, I like the variety in those that there are some, the there are from different stages of your life.

[00:29:53] Steve: That was right. You're not just having, right.

[00:30:30] Steve: And that's a. Well, it's a huge thing to sort of get your head around.

[00:30:59] Ross: If the intention behind it is, is a positive one and a loving one, there's opportunities for us all to be role models.

[00:31:28] Steve: I'm going to make a repeat plea if people haven't heard of or haven't checked out people soup, please do. It's, uh, a fabulous, and I'm trying to think of the word such a, a repository of, of goodness. So many episodes that you will find something that is of interest to you. Even if you're not sure where to start, maybe go [00:32:00] through all of them.

[00:32:12] Ross: Oh, Steve, that, that's super kind of you. It's been. It's been a joy to just catch up and chat with you, and it's been an honor to be on, on your podcast.

[00:32:42] Steve: Thank you very much and on on that note as I'm trying to wipe the smile off my face.