In this episode, hosts Bo and Rainey speak with two sisters from the Maliseet tribe.

The sisters share a bunch of different stories including Bigfoot, little people, Gremlins, giant rabbits, piracy, and a few other topics as well.

Tune in. Give it a listen.

For more, visit The Alabama Take's website by going here: https://www.thealabamatake.com

Foreign. Welcome to Hidden Creatures with Rainey and I. We have Casey and Abigail with us and they are going to have all sorts of wonderful stories to tell us.

And I'll give them a chance to introduce themselves in a minute before we get started, just the regular stuff. If you're enjoying this podcast. Awesome. Thank you. Please check out our family of podcasts with the Alabama take.

They have podcasts on there doing with like sports and books and television and all sorts of other Star wars, all sorts of other fun stuff. But they would all be stoked if you went and took a look at the other stuff and listened to the other stuff, if you're into it.

I also do another podcast, not as family friendly, on punk rock and community and finding community through sort of the greater punk rock umbrella. That's called punk loving fashion. So if you're interested in that kind of stuff, you can go listen as well.

And then lastly, today it is raining outside, so our dogs are inside. And so you will probably hear them throughout the thing as they come and demand attention as they are likely to do. Who am I forgetting?

Rainy, we are not professionals.

Definitely. We are definitely not professionals. We're just like a father and son duo who have decided to explore this wonderful world together.

And so one term you'll hear us use quite a bit is called mcfap, which is spelled mcf, A P. Rainy, will you enlighten us and the listeners?

Mcfat means mythical, cryptid, Fae, alien, and the paranormal.

Yeah.

And so under that, we try to touch base on all of those things or even explore whether all of those things are actually the same thing and linked together. But with that. That's enough of me talking. Ladies, will you go ahead and introduce yourselves and start us on our journey for today, please?

Well, hi. So first up, my name is Casey. I'm here with my sister Abigail. For anybody listening, if our voices sound exactly the same, I apologize.

We are identical twins, so it's gonna happen, unfortunately.

But yeah.

The reason or what brings me on the podcast today is that my sister and I have spent a lot of years looking into myths from our tribe. So we are both from the or the or Mokto band of the Maliseet tribe from Maine. So that tribe is part of the Wabanaki Confederacy of tribes.

So they are kind of all of the tribes that are from Maine that extended up. They extend up into Canada in that area.

And they all, they all have their own unique myths and stories associated with the tribe, the religion, the culture.

And so my sister and I have spent the last several years or, you know, a good portion of our lives, studying those myths, looking for those stories, that sort of thing. For me, that's largely amateurish. That's just me collecting written accounts, looking for stuff online, stuff like that.

But when Abby introduces herself, she can tell you what she knows.

Hi, I'm Abigail. While I was living in Maine, I had the opportunity to study at the University of Maine and take classes with a Wabanaki storyteller.

He had decades of experience telling stories professionally, and I learned a lot, not just about Wabanaki culture, but about Native stories and history from all over the country. But the Wabanaki stories especially interested me, obviously. And a big thing he liked to highlight was we don't refer to them as myths.

We refer to them as stories and legends because it is a living oral history. It's not from a dead or ancient society. These. Our people are still alive. We're still here, we're still thriving, and we're still telling our stories.

That's a big thing that he did like to highlight, and I wanted to share a couple of fun things that I learned while studying under him, and that's why we're here today. So.

Awesome. Thank you.

And so one of the things that I guess Rainy and I had discussed before we started doing this is, like, oftentimes these stories that we hear about these beings or creatures or whatever come from a very, like, European framework. Right. And.

And so one of the questions that Rainey and I had when we first started this is, like, okay, are these things, like, strictly a European framework, or were these beings, like, all over the world just. We don't hear about them because, you know, the Europeans did what the Europeans did. Right? Yeah, yeah. And. And.

And so one of the things that really fascinates me is, like, the. More, like, native and indigenous histories with these things, just because those aren't the stories that I grew up with. And it's, you know.

Yeah, they're definitely a different flavor when you get into them. They tend to follow different structures. Like, they tend to follow a different rhythm when you tell them or when you hear them.

So it's very interesting, honestly. And, like, sometimes a story will take you by surprise. You're like, oh, I didn't know that's where that came from. You know?

Cool. I'll just. Rainey and I will probably pop in with some questions along the way, but y' all go ahead and take it.

And I am excited to go on this journey.

Hey, we're excited to be here with you.

Man. All right.

So, Abby, if you want to start.

Sure. So the first thing I wanted to talk about was the existence of little people or goblins in Wabanaki storytelling.

So there's all kinds of little creatures that exist in the stories, and they're different across tribes, and they're different between bands. Different names, different places, different features. But I'm going to highlight a couple here.

Unfortunately, I do have to have notes because the names are quite long. So, for example, the Mickamwis, significant to the pass of Maquoddy, Micmac, and Maliseet.

These were little creatures, sometimes with horns, sometimes with green skin, sometimes hairy all over, that would actually warn of danger and invasion. They would live on rocky shores and lakes.

And in stories, for example, you would hear about people, especially hunters, being out and seeing creatures in the distance that they just couldn't quite catch up with, no matter how quickly they traveled.

And after a while, the creatures would yell back and warn them of upcoming Mohawk war parties and dangerous people coming towards their tribe so that they have time to get ready and defend themselves. So in some cases, you have these creatures being benevolent, being referred to as Friends of Glooscap, which is a big figure in Wabanaki stories.

He created a lot of the different animals in the world he factors into Wabanaki history a lot. Big figure. And then we have the Mijomueces.

These were other creatures, not so nice, that lived near rocky shores and rivers, and they would steal children. So you would warn your kids, hey, don't go near that rocky water.

That's where the Mijimuezis live.

And that's just kind of a couple of examples of there's all these little mischievous creatures running around in the woods of Maine.

So if, for example, you're camping up there and you wake up one morning and your camp is all destroyed and things are stolen, you know, it might be burglars, but it could also be the goblins. So that's fun. But the big thing I want to talk about is the different creatures and spirits living on Mount Katahdin.

So Mount Katahdin, tallest mountain in Maine, pretty famous for a very long time. For generations and generations. Even to this day, it is generally recommended that Wabanaki people do not climb Mount Katahdin.

You may have heard this because it is mentioned in a recent movie, Lost on a Mountain in Maine, that there is a spirit that lives on Mount Katahdin called the Pamola. It's a spirit that summons storms in bad and dangerous weather. The body of a Man, wings of a bird, head of a moose.

And it can make the weather up there really, really dangerous and really, really unpredictable. But here's the real reason the Wabanaki can't climb Mount Katahdin. So in the storytelling, and you can check me on this, this is real.

There is a race of very, very tall, hairy men, usually with reddish fur, 7 to 8ft tall, that live in the caves and the rocky places on Mount Katahdin. And the Wabanaki, especially the Nobscot, were at war with them for a very, very long time. And eventually a treaty was formed.

And it's pretty amicable. Not a lot of fighting, but it means that the Wabanaki cannot go on Mount Katahdin because that's enemy territory.

So that if anybody asks me if I ever want to climb Mount Katahdin, I have to say, absolutely not. There's a treaty.

Can't violate the treaty. Can't do it. Can't do it.

And the storyteller that I studied under, he liked to talk about different stories of people seeing what they thought was a chimpanzee in the trees around Mount Katahdin. You may know there are no chimpanzees in New England. That is the juvenile version of the Bigfoots trying to deter them from Bigfoot territory.

And I've really tried to find if there's, like, a specific name for the Bigfoots in the Wabanaki. Wabanaki lexicon.

I have not been able to find it, and I'm not sure why, but it's because there's a lot of different ones, and people call them different things. But, nope, totally a thing, which is fun. It gives me a great excuse not to have to climb a mountain. So.

Yeah, well, I'm familiar with Mount Katahdin for completely different reasons, just because it's either the start point or end point for the Appalachian Trail.

But also, in recent years, there has been quite a bit of conflict over that fact to the point where there are discussions on moving the endpoint for, you know, and, you know, all depends on whose side of the story you take on it. But it's basically conflict between the hikers and everybody else who uses that mountain.

I mean, from a completely layman, Native perspective, I would say move it just because you're violating the treaty. Land there, man. Like, you don't want to mess with the Bigfoots. Like, we know better.

Well, yeah, and to me, it's. You know, I don't really have. But it's. To me, it's similar to, like, the climbers who climb Devil's Tower, you know, within sort of the.

The plains native culture, like Devil's Tower is this very, like, revered spot, and they really don't like climbers climbing it. And I completely 100 agree that people shouldn't be climbing on this very hallowed, you know, area.

Well, it's less that it's a. Like a sacred religious site and more that there's forces up there that we aren't supposed to interlope on. There's.

There's power up there that humans really shouldn't be interacting with is kind of the idea.

But I. I do think that in some ways, you could compare it to things like Bear Lodge or various mounds, especially like Serpent's Mound, for example, where it's, you know, it's important to the native culture and making it something that people climb and walk all over. I mean, you know, it's. It's debatable.

Well, there's also a similar discussion to be had for Acadia, for instance. So Acadia national park, right. Mount Desert Island. That's an incredibly sacred area, especially to. To the Penobscot.

We're Maliseet, but, you know, Penobscots are cousins. And it's, you know, it used to be a. A seasonal site for, you know, religious and community purposes. And essentially, as soon as.

As soon as there was colonization, it became a. It became a vacation site for people from, you know, further south from New York, stuff like that. So it's.

It's kind of always been a push and pull because we, you know, these places are beautiful, and if you've ever been to Acadia, it's gorgeous. And so I do understand wanting to visit. I do understand wanting to vacation there, but also it's an interest. The interest of protecting the.

The sacred sites and the historical sites there as well, because Acadia is actually full of historical sites. There's petroglyphs, there's. There's things there that, you know, as part of the culture that's. From there you.

You do want to retain for future generations, you know.

Actually went to Acadia last October, right? Yeah, yeah, last October we went there. But like, we've done.

Most of our adventuring is done out west, so, like the Rocky Mountain areas and in the Wind River Range in sort of north central Wyoming. Sort of up on the crest of the mountains there, there's a big medicine wheel. Maybe it was. I don't remember.

Regardless, there's a big fence around it now just to keep people from tramping all over it and preserving it because multiple tribes still use it, but also on our various journeys. So we do a lot of white water rafting and extended multi day trips. And on a lot of the trips there are the petroglyphs and picta.

Pictographs.

Pictographs, you know, and the remnants of the, you know, cultures that were there before us. Yeah. And typically before you put on a river, you know, you get this talk about like, leave this stuff alone.

Like if you find something, leave it, it's not yours. And even a lot of the rivers that we do will border like tribal lands. And the rivers out there are different than the rivers the rest of the country.

So to get on most of them you have to have a permit.

And like when you're going down the river to camp, if you're going to camp on travel land, then you also have to have like a permit from that, you know, that tribal community as well. Yeah.

So there's, there's a lot of that sort of land rights to take and I don't know if rights is the right word, but regardless, you know, in respect, just to take into consideration, totally fair.

And balancing that with kind of the understanding that the earth is everyone's in a sense. Like it is beautiful and you kind of want to go see it and you want people to be able to go see it, you know.

No, I totally respect you guys desire for adventure and your desire to see what the world has to offer and all the. Because America, there's so many beautiful parts, there's so many beautiful areas.

And you know, a big thing is that for a lot of tribes, land ownership is not a thing.

And it never was.

Like she said, the Earth is everyone's. So if you respect it and you take care of it, there's nothing wrong with wanting to see it. So yeah, yeah.

That's how I feel when I go to national parks now.

Because a lot of the population of people visiting national parks is from out of country, they're from other countries, you know, from all over the world. I tend to get flagged down. I think it's because I wear a cowboy hat. Random people with German accents will be like, which way do we go?

And I usually know, but yeah, no, I actually get excited when I see people coming to see my country because I'm like, yeah, yeah, it is beautiful. Yeah, yeah, look at this. This is my country, you know? Yeah, you know.

Oh, no, definitely. But I think what y' all brought up is like, you know, it's a respect piece, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Sorry. I get sidetracked sometimes.

No, you're good. Well, I guess I didn't want to imply that you shouldn't want to go see these things or want to learn.

About these things for any reason.

Oh, no, not at all. I didn't get that at all.

It's.

But.

But. Yeah. No respecting that.

Every tribe is different and their traditions are different and their history is different, and they might have different rules around what you can see and where you can go, but ultimately, there's a lot to learn. There's a lot to learn and. And fun.

Cool. Okay. Let's get back on track and talk about.

Yeah. Back on track.

Yeah. And that's on me.

Hey. To get us back on track. Actually, I did have a story loaded. The title of it is. I call it Grandpa Chino the Stink Man.

I'm told that's not the official title, but that's why I like to call it. So if you don't mind me getting.

Into it, Go for it, please.

All right.

So Grandpa Chino the Stink Man. It's a fairly old story, not as ancient as some. You'll see when we get to the end why that is. The story begins on the coast near Acadia.

Actually, the subject of the story is a family. So this family was a mother and a father and two sons, and they lived happily on the coast.

They were Penobscots, and so they were excellent out on the water. They fished, and they were having a good summer in the year that the story happened. But there. There was a story going up and down the coast.

There was a. There was a sphere that was. That was rattling the air, and there was word that people were dying. Not sure why, not sure how.

It wasn't just old people or very young people that were dying. It was. It was strong people. It was young people that were dying and dying horribly. And there was this.

There was this smell in the air as this death came. There was. There was a stink and a rot. And so this family, they. They know that something is coming, and they don't know what it is. And so they.

They say, we're going to go inland. Normally, they wouldn't go inland this time of year, but it. But they do.

They decide to leave early because this death, it's following the people, it's following the settlements. And so they say, we'll just go as a family. We'll go inland. And.

And so anyway, so they pack up everything and they go inland and they find a freshwater spring. It's a very, very common thing in Maine. Plenty of freshwater spring springs throughout the land.

And so they find a spring, and they set up a lodge, and they start to live out in the inland areas. And one day, the father and sons, they go off to go fill up their moose bladders in the nearby spring.

And so the mother is keeping the camp while they're gone. And as she's keeping the camp, they're on a. Something of a hill. And she looks out and she hears this rumbling in the ground. And it's.

There's something shaking the air. And as she looks out to the horizon, she sees trees starting to fall. She hears them falling, too, as. As this thing gets closer.

And she knows somewhere deep that this is that death. This is that thing that was coming. This is that thing that was killing people. And it's coming for her. And she's afraid. Very, very deeply afraid. And.

But she's watching it come, trees falling, the ground shaking, and she has a moment. She has a moment of clarity. And she thinks, right now I am alone and afraid, and I can't fix one of those things, but I can fix the other.

And so she says, I just won't be afraid. And how am I going to do that? Because there's something bearing down on me right now.

And she says, when this thing comes and when I see it, I'm going to greet it. Greet it like family, essentially. And in that way, I won't be alone and I won't be afraid.

And so as this thing comes into view and she sees it, it is terrifying. It doesn't really have a proper shape. It's kind of just a dark mass. It's like rotting sludge, essentially. As it moves, it doesn't step necessarily.

It has no feet or legs or head or hands. It has just, like, slime falling off of it as it moves, it sludges forward, and the smell smacks her in the face. And it's awful.

It's the worst thing she's ever smelled. And so even so, she steals her nerve. And when the thing gets close, she's staring at it as it's coming.

When the thing gets close, she says, hello, Grandfather. That's the first thing that comes to her mind. What's the one person I would like to see right now is my grandfather. So she says, hello, Grandfather.

And so the thing stops, and she says, where have you been? I've missed you. And thing doesn't move. And so she thinks, all right, okay. So she just starts talking to it just as if it were her grandfather.

How have you been? Are you hungry? How was your day? You know, that sort of thing. And the thing just doesn't move.

And so she gestures by the fire and she says, would you like to sit down? And the thing starts to move. It sludges over, sits by the fire. She says, all right, okay.

And so she kind of goes about her business, keeping an eye on the thing. It doesn't move, it reeks like anything. But it's not hurting her, it's not doing anything.

And so eventually the father and sons do come back and they go, what is. And she's like, grandfather say hello. And they say, also, very open minded people, very brave people. And they go, all right, okay.

And so they say, hello, grandfather. And thing obviously doesn't say anything because it's a big ball of sludge.

And, and so the father and the mother and the sons, they all kind of do a little meeting off to the side. And she's like, I don't know what it is, but it stopped when I called it grandfather. So we're just gonna, we're gonna act like it's our grandfather.

And they're like, all right, okay. And so they, that's what they do.

And so they, they eat dinner and they're kind of choking down dinner because it's hard to eat when you got a bad smell around you. But they choke down dinner and then they go to bed and when they get back up, things still there. And so they go, all right, okay.

So they go about their business. They just start living their lives around this thing and nothing happens for a day or two.

But after a day or two, the.

Thing starts to sort of take a shape. It goes from being a big ball of sludge where it starts, you start being able to see a set of shoulders in there. You start being able to see ahead.

You know, it's taken the shape of a man over time. And several days after it arrived, the thing speaks. And mother is just going about her business. And thing speaks, she's like, ah.

And it says, it says, granddaughter. And she says, hello, grandfather, what can I do for you? And he says, I, you've been very, very kind to me these last few days.

And I, I, I need some help. And she says, all right, what can I do? He says, I need bear fat. And she's, okay, how much?

And he says, all that you have, all that you've got on hand, and I need you to boil it, I need you to get it really hot. And she's like, all right, okay. So bear fat is kind of Hard to come by. You need to kill a bear to have it, and it is very useful.

You use it to waterproof things. You can burn it, that sort of thing. So it's quite a resource.

But she takes all the bear fat they've got, they put it in a pot, they start boiling it, they pick it up with two sticks off the fire. They walk it over to Grandfather, and they say, here you go, Grandfather. He takes it barehanded and slams it back.

Drinks the whole thing straight bear fat. Disgusting. And it gets worse because after he drinks all the bear fat, he starts throwing up.

Now, he throws up more than a thing his size could possibly throw up. Just blah. And things are coming out of him, too. It's not just. It's not just, ooh. It's not just ooze. It's not just gross. It's. There's.

There's stuff in there. It's chunky. It is chunky as anything. And, you know, there's. There's pieces. It looked like there's hands, there's arms.

I would go down the list of human body parts that were in that, but that you can imagine. And so grandfather, you know, he. Once he's finished throwing up, he's kind of.

All of the goo has sloughed off of him, and all that's standing there is just a normal old man. And he says, I feel much better. And they're like, we can imagine that you do. And he's like, so I'm now your grandfather.

I've.

I've kind of gotten all the. All the rot off of me, and I'll be okay now.

You're probably going to want to burn most of that, though, because that's going to start smelling even worse. And so they're like, all right, okay. So they. They take the human remains and they bury them respectfully. And the rest of it, they burn.

They clean up, you know, the absolutely copious amounts of throw up, and they start to live again. You'd be surprised how quickly things can be normal, even after something insane has happened. And so they start to live with their grandfather.

And he's a. He's a good grandfather, actually. He's. He's very kind. He's very respectful. He's very knowledgeable. He's been around much longer than a man.

You know, he looks pretty old, but it sounds like he's been around much longer than that. And he has good stories and he has good wisdom. And so he's just their grandfather for a while.

But then one day, the Grandfather, he's sitting by the fire with them, and he says, grandchildren, I've got some bad news. And they say, oh, what is it, Grandfather? He says, I am a chino. That's a type of monster, right? That's just a general term for a monster, but he is.

He is, you know, the greatest of chinos. Essentially, he says, I am a chino,.

But I'm not the only one.

And there are others like me. And when I came, I came here to kill you.

But when I saw granddaughter standing up on the hill looking at me very, very solidly, I, you know, that, you know, made me pause. And then when she called me grandfather, that made me not want to kill you. However, the other chinos like me, that won't work.

They're meaner and crueler. And my sister, I can feel she's coming. She's headed this way. And I, you know, she will kill you, so I'm going to have to kill her. And it's about.

It's about 50, 50 whether I succeed. And he says, and also to do this, I'm going to need. You're going to need to do a few things for me. And they say, all right, okay, what can we do?

And he said, well, first, I need you to find my backpack. So he. They're like, all right, where's your backpack?

And he said, well, when I saw granddaughter standing on the hill, I took my backpack off and I left it on a tree. So I need you to go get it. You're going to want to burn everything else that's in there. And they go, all right, okay.

So Granddaughter goes down to find this backpack, and there is an actual backpack. So I size for a normal. And she opens it up so. Full of human remains, closes it again, opens it back up. All right.

So she takes the humans remains out and buries them respectfully. And what remains is a deer antler and a horn from an animal that doesn't exist. That's all I know.

I don't know what it was, but it was a horn from an animal that doesn't exist. And she carries these back to Grandfather. He says, good, this is what I need to kill my sister. Now you guys need to dig a hole.

And they're like, how big? And then he's like, big enough for all of you to stay in, probably about 10ft down. Because when my sister comes, she can scream. Ooh, can she scream.

And her scream will kill you if you hear it. And you need to be out of the way, because when I fight her it's gonna be a big fight. And they say, all right, okay. So they start digging a hole.

And this is a very deep hole, very hard to dig. But they dig and dig and dig and dig down until they're about. Almost 10ft down. They've got a little.

Little hole down there for all of them to hide in. And then he says, all right, take some food down there. That'll last you at least a day and a night. And also, you need some bear fat.

They've collected some since a puke incident. And he says, you'll need that bear fat. You're gonna put it in your ears so that you can't hear my sister screams. And they're like, all right. Okay.

So nearly as soon as they're done digging that hole, Grandfather Chino says, hear that rumbling? They hear the rumbling, see the trees falling. They see the trees falling. Get in the hole quick. And so they do.

And so they all climb down in the hole, they stuff their ears full of bear fat, and they wait. And then they feel it because the ground is shaking, the ground is rumbling.

And even though the bear fat is covering most of the noise, they can hear the screeches. And so for a night and a day, it's just rumble, rumble, chainsaw noises. Just very, you know, cock a doodle do.

For some reason, there's no chickens here, but just all kinds of noises overhead. And then finally when the day breaks, the noise stops and the rumbling stops. And Grandfather Chino, he kind of sticks his hand down the hole.

He says, hey, it's all right. So they climb out of the hole, and then Grandfather Chino's like, take the bear fat out. And they do. And he's like, so I killed her. Look.

And they look over and there's just a big pile of sludge with, like, this frozen mass. It's a heart in the center, and it's steaming because it's so cold. He says, so I've killed her. We need to burn that heart.

And then, you know, problem will be over. And they're like, okay. So Grandfather picks up the heart bare handed. It is steaming. It is so cold. Tucks it over to the fire, and he throws it in.

Here's the problem. Grandpa Chino's never killed another Chino before. So he does not know that if you throw something very, very cold into a fire, it explodes.

And so it did. Pow. Explodes in the heart into a thousand pieces. And the pieces of the heart scatter across all over the place.

So Grandpa Chino says, expletive he says, we got to go find all those pieces. And so the good news is is that the pieces do steam and smoke because they're so cold.

So they have to, you know, go pick them up with, like, gloves, essentially, and they find the one piece at a time. They didn't really know what shape it was to begin with, so they're just finding pieces randomly.

But eventually they do collect all the pieces that they can find and they burn them. Grandfather says that's it. We can. We can just live now. And so they do, and they live for a very long time.

And grand Grandpa Chino dies a normal man, and the rest of the family lives on. But there is word that the heart. The heart of the sister Chino may still be around.

The pieces may still be around because you never know if you find all the pieces. So there are still chinos out there, even to this day. But. And, Abby, what is the chino exactly?

So the chino was a story to explain the existence of smallpox. So I guess we can say that the chinos are no longer out there because smallpox was eradicated in the 80s. Thank you, vaccines.

But that is the story of Grandpa Chino, the stink fan.

Thank you, thank you. And thank you, vaccines.

Thank you, vaccines. Oh, goodness.

Yeah, the old storyteller that told us that one didn't end it with the vaccine. But, you know, Abby's got the medical background.

Stories evolve with time and information. That's true.

Too true.

Rainy, do you have any questions or comments about that?

No. What, you don't have any thoughts about an old man drinking a bunch of bear fat and vomiting everywhere? A weird story, man.

How would you feel if we were out, like, on one of our rafting trips and, like, some big blobbish thing came up and wanted to eat dinner with us?

Weird salad. That's rare.

Yeah. Would you invite it to eat with us or.

Probably not.

Okay, I can live with that. What if it was covered in crickets?

Nope.

So one of the trips we did a couple years ago was out where, like, Wyoming and Utah and Colorado all come together, and they were. It was like a biblical plague of crickets. Like, you could hear them munching, and it was like this giant moving carpet of crickets.

Yeah, it was creepy.

Not fun.

Oh, not a fan. Yeah. Don't have a ton of those in Maine. You do have the mosquitoes and the black flies and the brown moths. Yeah, those are not fun.

I do miss the mosquitoes.

Since you brought up moths, do y' all have any, like, stories about Moths.

Moth specifically?

No, I don't think I do.

Mothman apparently does not go up into Maine in.

In the.

Story ecosystem.

The reason I ask is one of the very first people we interviewed about this was driving down a road and came across, like, a swarm of moths. And in the middle of the swarm of moths, there was like, a person standing, like, feeding them.

Oh, wow.

And it wasn't in a neighborhood or anything. It was just out in the middle of nowhere.

So since then, I've just been trying to, like, I don't go out and look for them, but when moths are mentioned, I'm like, I wonder if there's any further.

More moths.

Yeah.

Out there, man.

Moth type things.

Fray. Not I there. You know, most stories have a. They have a central character, a central animal generally, and.

No.

Yeah, no moths. I wish, though. That would be pretty fun.

Yeah. Cool.

Got. No, we got stories about frogs, raccoons, coyotes, rabbits.

Owls.

No, no moths, unfortunately.

Can we do owls?

Oh, I don't have one. Locked and loaded right this second.

Say, no, that's fine.

Yeah, I have to go back into my oral history books.

Yeah. So can we just talk. Are you okay if we talk about owls just in general? Like, just in general.

Hit it, man. Hit it.

So this is another thing that sort of I've become intrigued with recently. So the very nutshell version, because I've told this multiple times on here already, guy used to work with Cherokee owls. No good.

Like, within his cultures, owls are no good. And then a month or so ago, my sister shared sort of podcast about owls with me, and the guy was saying the owls are sort of.

There is a correlation between owls and interesting things happening. And so listen to that podcast. And immediately started having owl encounters.

Oh, no.

Like, same day. Yeah, yeah. So if you don't mind, can we just talk about owls, owls and general, like.

Sure.

So we. We're getting sidetracked. But whatever. It's our thing. We can do whatever we want.

I. I will say for the Wabanaki, owls are a good omen, actually. They're okay. They're. They. They're not good fortune necessarily, but so.

They are generally associated with wisdom, actually, you know, so the. The chief's garb would, in a lot of cases, have these pointy ears on it to. To associate it with owls and kind of imply wisdom and knowledge.

That's the one thing I do off the top of my head, unfortunately. I don't want to, like, try to pull a story out because I like. I want to double check and make sure I don't do it wrong.

Yeah, they respect that. 100. Okay. Yeah. And that was the main thing.

Like, I really just wanted to know sort of what role, like, the owl played within sort of the greater belief system.

No fair.

Yeah.

We would disagree with your friend on. On owls. Owls are cool. We're good with owls.

Yeah. And I know different tribes, different regions. They all have their own beliefs. And like, I said, for him, like, owls are no good.

And then they were after him.

Yeah. And, you know, but within, like. And I know within the Southwest, like, there's different feelings and. And. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for humoring me.

No worries.

No.

Do you have another story?

What about the rabbits? Do you remember the whole one about the rabbit and the coyote? Not rabbit and coyote. I know about the Thumping Rabbit, the giant rabbit.

Oh, yeah.

The Dancing Rabbit. The Dancing Rabbits.

Do you remember that one well enough to tell it, or do you want me to give it a try?

I think I got it. Okay. So this one is, I think, actually a Maliseet story. Not a. Not a. Not a Penobscot, I think. Pretty sure, yeah. But.

So this is the story of the Dancing Rabbits. So anyway, this was a village.

This one was actually inland at the time, so it would have been in the winter, because most tribes go inland during the winter, and this winter was especially cold and especially harsh. The winters in Maine always are, but this one was pretty bad.

And so the hunters of the village, mostly men, but the hunters of the village were setting out to go hunt and to go find some game to eat because the stores only last so long. The foraging they did during the summer only lasts so long, and so they need to supplement that. And so the men go out to hunt, and.

Deep snow, cold, cold, harsh wind, and there's just nothing out. There's just nothing. Like, everything's burrowed deep, everything's hiding, and they just can't find anything.

And so they go out as far as they can, as far as their little trail rations will take them, and they turn back around, and they come back tired and worn, and they say, nope, nothing. And so the elders say, that's. That's not good.

And so they refit them, they warm them up by the fire, and then the next day, they say, y' all need to go out again, because, you know we're going to run out. The winter is already long, and it's going to be longer. And so the hunters go out again, and. Tired, cold, not really wanting to do this.

And so they're sniping at each Other they're not having a good time. This is not a fun hunt. This is certainly not recreational, and this does not feel like they're going to make it. So just mad at each other, sniping.

And so they go out as far as they can, and then they turn around and come back. And they come back footsore, tired and dirty. And they say, we couldn't find anything. And so the elders say, that's not good.

And that's also unusual, you know, because it.

The reason the tribes made it this far is that, you know, usually their hunters are good or their hunters are excellent, and they have been able to find things. You know, I'm immemorial every winter, but they're just struggling this time, and they can't. It's bad. It is bad now.

So the elders say, look, we got bad news for you guys is that we are out. Like, you know, they've gone as far as they could. They've rationed as far as they could.

And they said, if you guys can't find anything on this next hunt, you're just gonna have to stay out there, because if you come back, that's more mouths to feed. And we simply do not have enough.

And so, for the survival of the band, for the survival of this village, you will need to stay out there until you find something. You cannot come back without food. And so the hunters, they say, oh, no. And so they go out, and again, they're sniping, they're mad at each other.

This is bad. It's desperate.

And.

But as they go out, not quite as far as they've been, as they go out, they hear this kind of thumping in this ground. Thumb, thumb, thumb, thumb, Deep, deep through the ground.

And so they follow it and they sneak up on it because they know that this is something big, right? There's no elephants in Maine, right?

The biggest thing out there is a moose, but nothing that makes a noise like that when it walks, especially not in deep snow. And so they sneak up on this sound and they find it. And when they find.

They look through the green brush, essentially, because it's all pine trees, they look through the brush, and what they see something they barely understand. So it's like it's a big line of rabbits dancing in a big circle. And they're dancing, right? They're jumping up and down, you know, like in a big line.

And it's very well coordinated. And the reason that it's coordinated is that there's a big rabbit in the center. When I say big Big as a person, right?

And it's thumping the way rabbits do, right? But it's thumping to keep the beat. So all of the other rabbits are dancing, right? And the big rabbit in the center is just thumping. And it's.

It's a great rabbit dance, right? So they watch it for a minute, just like, what is this? And then one of the dudes, he kind of shifts and he breaks a stick.

And then all the rabbits, they all look up, they do that thing, ears up. And then they take off, Gone. And so go, what was that? And so they. They turn around and they start heading home. They're like, we.

That's enough for my blood. Like, we're. We're going to see if the village will take us back, because that's too much.

And so they go back to the village, and they say, elders, look, we know we weren't supposed to come back. Weird stuff happened, right? And so the elders, like, all right, come on, warm up by the fire. Talk, right? Start talking. And so they do.

And so they tell them the story of the rabbits dancing. The great rabbit in the center. Thump, thump, thump, loud enough to shake the ground. The elders say, all right, take the night.

Get ready to go in the morning. We're going to think about it, right? So the elders, they sit and they talk, and they think, they run it over, right?

Because they, you know, these are. These elders, they're, you know, they're the leaders of the tribe, but they're also the spiritual leaders. They're the story keepers, right?

They're the traditions preservers. And so they're running this through the mind, through the. Trying to figure out what this could be.

So when everybody wakes up the next morning, they go to the hunters and they say, we think we got it. We think we figured it out, guys. And they say, the rabbits, that when they dance together, like, one goes up and one goes down, right?

They were all in time. They're all dancing to one beat. And the hunters say, yes, it was beautiful, actually, to watch. Strange, but beautiful.

And they said, what were you like when you were hunting? And it wasn't a good time. We weren't having fun. We were getting in each other's way. You know, we were angry at each other.

We're sniping at each other because we're desperate. We're tired, we're hungry. It's not. Not fun. And the elders say, well, that's what they're trying to teach you, right?

Because the rabbits, they're, you know, they're not just rabbits. They're from the spirits, whatever you want to call it. But they're trying to teach you that you need to dance to the same beat.

You need to rise and fall. As one rises, the other falls. As one goes forward, the other goes back.

You need to follow the same rhythm and then you'll be able to hunt, then you'll be able to succeed. And so they say, go out one more time. And so they do. So the hunters go out and this time they actually, they work together.

This time one rises, the other falls. They dance to the same beat. They actually work at it.

They actually, like try to work as a team as opposed to just a bunch of people mad at each other. And before they know it, they find game. A whole bunch of rabbits, as it turns out, they catch a whole bunch of rabbits.

And when they return, they've got biggest haul they've ever gotten. And village rejoices. They have a great feast because plenty of food for tonight.

They save what they can, the ration what they can, and they make it through to the summer when the green starts to break through the snow. But from then on, the hunters knew that they have to dance to the same beat to the beat of the dancing rabbit. So that is the story.

Awesome. Thank you.

Cool. Yeah.

Something to be said for cooperation and harmony.

But the joke I like to tell about that story is that if you have a human sized rabbit, I'm pretty sure that's just a kangaroo.

Pretty much.

I just want to say, but I.

Was in the back, like, I think.

They just saw a kangaroo. Yeah. I also think the story about cooperation is. Might not have been what I would have assumed seeing a line of dancing rabbits.

Personally, the elders are smarter than me on that one because I would not. I would have not have gotten that message from it. So.

Gotcha. Cool. Rainey, do you have anything?

I don't think so.

Well, if you do, just pipe up. Do you have any more stories about, like the little people?

So I did have one really short story. Okay, so there's this woman, and she lives alone in her lodge.

And it's the middle of the winter and the snow is several feet tall and the wind is blowing and she's out in the middle of nowhere. And so she's not expecting to hear anyone or anything other than just, you.

Know, animals in the woods.

But one night she's sitting by her fire and she hears someone walking over the snow with snowshoes, you know, that noise, and it scares her because no one's supposed to be out this far. The Footsteps come to the side of her door. And she hears the person out there take off their snowshoes and lean them against the side of her lodge.

And a person just doesn't knock, doesn't do anything. Just walks into her house. And it's a little person, two and a half, three feet tall in his little snowsuit.

Doesn't say a word, walks up to her fire, sits down, just warms himself by the fire, lets the snow thaw off of him. Just sits, stares into the fire for a little bit. Weird little guy, green skin. And she's just sitting in the corner,.

Terrified, like, what is that?

And after about an hour, gets up, brushes himself off, walks out the door, leaves, doesn't say a word.

And the woman chases him outside.

And she doesn't see his footprints in the snow anywhere.

He just disappears.

And no moral to that story. It's just a weird thing that happened.

That's some of the stories, actually. It's just. Yeah, this weird thing happened. Check it out. That's it. Well, you know, that's.

That's. I think that's the basis for a lot of stories. Like, hey, here's this really weird thing that happened.

And we don't have any explanation for it, but, you know, take it for what it is.

No, it's. A lot of the stories about the goblins. It doesn't really seem like there's no big point. There's no big moral to the story.

It's kind of like, oh, be careful. Some of them can give you magic powers and can be a familiar to. For you to be a powerful shaman.

And some of them will steal your soul, and some of them will just steal your stuff. And they. They talk in languages no one can understand, but other. Other of them are nice and will help you out with stuff. Again, the.

The goblins, it's. It's almost like.

The thing I like to compare it to is like, fairies in European mythology, which is that there's a lot of different flavors, a lot of different names. They. Some of them are horrible. Some of them are funny and cute.

It kind of just depends on who you ask in what area you're in, I guess, whether they're a good thing or a bad thing.

Yeah.

Just kind of when mysterious things happen, you know, maybe it was them, you know? Gotcha.

You never know.

What. If y' all haven't shared it already, what's your. Do you all have a favorite story?

Well, so my favorite one is actually like a historical anecdote. So this one's actually less in the realm of story and more in the realm of, like, historical fact.

Okay.

So essentially the Wabanaki had different types of people. You had different roles, right? And they actually did have a class of warriors that were fairly famous.

These warriors were actually chosen from boyhood, around what age? Actually, two or three. Yeah, so these warriors were chosen from around age two or three.

And they were looking for grit, resilience, like problem solving in these boys, right? Like, they're recruiting early. They're looking for that mindset, right?

Leadership and like a peacefulness too, an ability to solve problems and communicate that too.

And so the point of recruiting this early and recruiting these young boys to become warriors is that the tribes are very decentralized because, you know, settlements, especially in a subsistence community, like, top out at like 200 people, right?

And so you had thousands of people across Maine and into Canada, but they were, you know, like, there's no, like, greater government, you know, there's no greater organization. The tribes just communicated and they cooperated, essentially.

And there were other tribes outside of the Wabanaki confederacy that, you know, they occasionally fought.

Right.

And so the point of these warriors essentially was to kind of serve as those intermediary between the tribes. So they were called what's pure men. I don't know what. What's the Willamct way word for it?

I was never given the Willemaktui word.

They were referred to as the pyramid. Yeah, they were called the pyramid in the, in the teaching.

But anyway, so they essentially had to be high level endurance runners because they had to be able to travel between the tribes, essentially, like, you know, hundreds of miles. And Maine is very hard to navigate. Everything kind of looks like everything else. There's no landmarks.

You run and there's a stream and then there's another stream, and then you run again and there's just a stream and another stream.

So you have to be an extraordinary, extraordinary navigator to, like, be able to go through the backwoods of Maine, especially, you know, when there was no roads. Right. And so the pyramid had to be high endurance runners. They had to be able to run for multiple days straight.

They had to be able to subsist on just what they could find, you know, around where they were running. And they would actually carry communications between the tribes in the form of wampum belts, generally.

So those are, you know, those like beaded belts you see in the museums and such. Those were a form of communication, right.

So the pyramid had to be able to read the wampum belts, and they had to be Able to pass communication in between the tribes. It was a very important role. And they also had to be able to fight because they're a lone runner in, you know, like, uncontrolled territory.

So they were incredibly, like, incredibly intelligent, incredibly resilient. Just, you know, single combatants, essentially.

Slight correction. The pyramid actually didn't read the wampum belts.

They were not trained in reading the wampum belts because if they were ever captured for any reason, the tribe didn't want them to be able to translate the wampum belt to an enemy.

So they were trained to be able to carry the wampum belt and protect the wampum belt, but they couldn't read it themselves just to protect the information. It was just elders and spiritual leaders on the two ends of the communication.

That could read them. Ancient form of encryption. But anyway, so, yes, these words had to be able to carry these communications. And so highly effective individuals.

And their final test, right? So they had their training, you know, they had to, you know, be able to run for multiple days.

They'd be able to forge, had to.

Be able to fight. But their final test before they could be considered a pure man, was they had to be able to kill the largest thing they could with just a knife.

And so the general test was a moose. So they had to basically climb a tree, jump down on a moose, and kill it with a knife, just barehanded, essentially.

And they actually did do that, though. That's a real thing that happened and warms my heart to this day.

I find it, like, I. I find it incredibly crazy, but also incredibly fun that that's just kind of who they be, you know? And then also another fun fact about, like, the warrior classes of the Wabanaki, right, Was they were incredibly effective.

And during the Revolutionary War, actually, they were some of the most prolific pirates. So basically, British ships would try to land along the main coast. Right.

And incredibly effective and very good at taking canoes out into the ocean and then attacking at night. Oh, yes. Did you get Abby's correction about the wampum belts?

Yeah, we got the correction about the wampum belts.

Fantastic. I would hate to. Misinformation. Uh, so basically, backtracking to the moose.

So essentially, their final test, the pure men's final test in their warrior training was to kill a moose with just a knife. So they'd climb a tree, jump on its back, kill it with a knife. Just crazy, fellas. Just nuts. So bananas. But you know what? I love that for them.

I also would do that. Just kidding. I Wouldn't.

Yeah, moose are big creatures.

They're very big. Yeah. I've seen them in real life. I've eaten moose and. Nope, I wouldn't want to jump on one's back.

But you got to be a special type of individual to feel like you can take that. But. Yeah, so that was their final test. And then I was gonna say just a couple notes about the exploits, essentially.

So the warrior classes for the Wabanaki were also very prolific pirates, essentially.

So essentially what would happen is British ships, like, during the Revolutionary War, right, British ships would try to come up on the main coast, right, to take territory up in the north. And the Wabanaki, they owned that land. And they were like, no way. And so they'd go out on their canoes in the middle of the night.

They had what is now called a primitive compound bow. But it is essentially like a, you know, before the invention of the compound bow as we know it, right?

It was a double bow, essentially, so that to, you know, reduce the. The strain as you draw. And so essentially they'd take those.

They go out on the water and they would attack the British ships and kill everybody on them and take the ship. Funny enough, the British cannon's very good against other ships, not good against canoes. They did not have the accuracy for that.

So they would essentially be able to just, you know, unfettered, go up to the ship and take it. And so they would take British ships.

And there were a couple, like, apparently famous groups of pirates among the Wabanaki that would go up and down the coast being Wabanaki pirates. I would also be a Wabanaki pirate if they asked me to join. And. And then, funny enough, this is kind of a little known fact, but the.

The colonial government, essentially, you know, George Washington's government, right? Of the 40 warships that they had, 30 were provided by the Wabanaki. They would basically steal British ships.

And they'd be like, hey, George Washington, you want one? And they'd be. He'd be like, oh, yeah, man, I would love a British warship. And so they'd sell them to them.

And so the basically entire, like, first generation of the United States Navy was provided by the Wabanaki. Also our connection to George Washington, because George Washington was actually like, the Wabanaki really liked him.

We actually have basically buildings that are still in existence today that have plaques on them. The wood for them was provided by George Washington. He actually gave the timbers as a gift to Penobscott on the tribes in the southern part of Maine.

So Yeah, we had our own dealings with George Washington, or he was apparently a friend of the tribes to some extent. Yeah. So that is my favorite story from the General Wabanaki list of stories. It is, however, also just historical facts.

So sometimes real life is the best story you can have, honestly.

I know it's not the fun cryptid stuff. It's the American history that you never hear.

The storyteller that I was learning under at Umay, and he actually showed us letters that George Washington wrote to the different chiefs of the Wabanaki tribes the night before they crossed the Delaware.

So you know that famous painting, Crossing the Delaware the night before they did that, George Washington was writing the different Wabanaki chiefs asking them for help with the Revolutionary War and being like, hey, you need to help our side, not the British side, because the British suck, and you're better off helping us than them. I'm very much paraphrasing. That's not how he wrote.

And it's just kind of interesting just to see where those tribal history and your standard American history that you learn in school do intersect. They did very much interact with each other in some pretty significant ways.

And it's kind of mind blowing when you first learn about it because you're like, what? Anyway, it's just fun. I enjoy it.

Randy, do you have any questions?

No.

No.

Okay, I have one last question and we're gonna get to wrapping up.

Cool.

What are Yalls favorite beings?

That's an actually good question. I mean, I was gonna say the albino deer.

I mean, that is fun.

I guess my favorite, they're not really the cryptids necessarily, but they are kind of, in a sense. So my favorite kind of piece of the stories essentially, is like albino deer, essentially.

So white deer are kind of a thing across the world, like, in terms of various mythologies. Right. Like, a lot of people have legends about them. For the Wabanaki, actually, they're very sacred.

The belief is that everything lives and lives again. Right. Reincarnation is a very big thing for Wabanaki religions.

And the belief is that if you are born white, if you were born with albinism, essentially, that means that we've served well, essentially. So if you're a deer, it means that you've. You fed a lot of people through your lives.

If you are, you know, a squirrel, it means you fed a lot of people through your lives. If you're a person, that means that you've lived a lot of good lives prior to this one.

And so that means that glouce cap and the higher powers have determined that you are. You're out of the cycle. This time, you've done your service, so you get a break. Right.

And so for deer, that means that you cannot kill an albino deer. For any albino animal. You can't kill it because it's sacred. It has a break, this life. It gets to live a long life. It doesn't have to feed anyone.

Right.

And for people with albinism, essentially, it's, you know, you're a spiritual leader. Like, you've lived good lives, and you're blessed. Right.

And so for me, you know, you hear stories, you see pictures of, like, albino deer, especially, and I'm just like, that's a good boy right there. He did his job. He's a good fellow. So I do love that take on that phenomenon. And, yeah, they're kind of my favorites.

Cool.

I mean, it's a big reason why I talked about the big fuss on Mount Katan is probably because they're my favorite Cryptid. They're my favorite. I love talking about it just because most of the time, people don't believe me. They're like, you're making that up.

That's not a thing.

And I'm like, it is.

My tribe has a treaty with bigfoots.

They're like, twilight reference.

You can't do that. Yeah. They're like, oh, you stole that from twilight. I did not. You know, not like, just general bigfoots. I'm not like a. Oh, I just love bigfoot.

I want to find bigfoot. No, just the tribe that lives on Mount Katahdin. I'm like. And again, also gives me an excuse not to climb a big mountain. I gotta respect them. They're.

I. I can't disrespect the bigfoot, so game respects game.

Nice. Cool. Thank you.

Yeah.

Anything else y' all would like to say in closing?

I guess in closing? It's a big world out there. There's a lot of stories, There's a lot of histories, and there's a lot of takes.

It is interesting to see how the various stories will have the same rhythm and rhymes. You know, you got goblins all over the world.

Right.

You've got different explanations for different phenomenon, but it's kind of beautiful to see, and it's always fun to share. You know, it's always fun to tell your version and be like, well, actually, this is my explanation for that. Or, this is what we've seen.

This is the crazy stuff.

You know, it's good and I guess my last thing is kind of just, thanks for having us. I don't really get to talk about this stuff very much, just because, I don't know, it doesn't come up in conversation. Let's be. Let's be fair.

People want you to climb Mount Katad, and then you're like, no, absolutely not.

Absolutely not. I have a treaty. There's a treaty in place. I can't. I can't create an international incident.

Interplane incident, you know, between the. Our plane and the plane on which the bigfoots exist.

Can't do it. So, you know, outside of not climbing Mount Katahdin, I don't really get to talk about it much. So this has been fun. I. I had to refresh on all.

On all my old notes and all of my books, all my good stuff, and it's. It's been fun revisiting it. Just because you don't get to. It's not something you get to interact with every day. And I've enjoyed.

I've enjoyed getting to talk about it.

So.

Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you both very much. I have enjoyed it. And if you all ever want to come on again and share more, we would love to have you.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Just let me know. Just reach out and be like, hey, we want to come back on. Yeah, we'd love to have you. Thank you very much. Yeah.

So with that, thank you for joining us on this episode of Hidden creatures. Rainy, don't be like the squawk and don't pee in fairy circles. Until next time.

Sa.