Shownotes
SUMMARY
Welcome to Podcast Graveyard, where we gather around tombstones of failed podcasts to unpack their stories.
In this episode, we unearth the tragic demise of a once-promising show known as "Jack's Chats." Follow along as we delve into the depths of this spectral podcasting journey, guided by the lamenting voice of our host, James Bishop, accompanied by the fallen host himself, Jack Gaisford.
As we wander through the haunted corridors of "Jack's Chats," we will confront the ghostly lessons they learned along the way. Unveiling the ghastly truth, we discover that this ill-fated podcast neglected the very essence of its existence: the almighty listener! Instead, it became a mere marketing vessel, forsaking the hauntingly important task of delivering value to those who dared to tune in.
This unearthly podcast is conjured for you by OneFinePlay.
TIMESTAMPS
00:05 Intro
06:04 Focus on video & social media clips
09:52 The challenge of sustainability
12:29 Keeping on despite a lack of results
14:23 The disappointment of podcast 'launching'
20:20 Missed opportunities from the podcast
25:03 Focus on delivering value to your listeners.
30:25 Outro
QUOTES
"I feel a bit sad, but part of me feels like I didn't give it my all. So there's a bit of resentment. I wish I could have found the time. It's it's a matter of priority and what is most important."
— Jack Gaisford
"Only when you really give it your all and you really get in the trenches with it, do you realise how hard it really is."
— Jack Gaisford
How often do people on TikTok, who may be interested in marketing or just scrolling through at night, see a 15 sec clip and then sit down and consume an hour long podcast? I don't know if it works like that."
— Jack Gaisford
ABOUT THE GUEST
Since 2018, Jack Gaisford has been running a video production agency that creates regular content for startups, all the way up to the biggest brands in the world. He's always dreamed of starting a podcast but never found the time to pursue it.
However, when his business experienced a slower period, he saw it as an incredible opportunity to finally make his podcasting dreams a reality. With his microphones ready and all the necessary equipment sorted out, Jack was determined to create a captivating show.
Inspired by the likes of Steven Bartlett's CEO and Joe Rogan's podcast, he aimed to deliver insightful content rather than mere snippets. Jack's journey to becoming a podcast host reflects his dedication to seizing opportunities and following his passions.
WATCH ON YOUTUBE
https://www.youtube.com/@podcastgraveyard/videos
SPONSORS
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FAVOURITE PODCASTING TOOLS
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CONTACT
Email podcastgraveyard@onefineplay.com or head to www.podcastgraveyard.com
Feel free to share your feedback, ideas, or insights from the episodes by tweeting @onefineplay. Thank you for tuning in!
ABOUT THE HOST
James Bishop (40), is the founder of OneFinePlay and one of the leading voices in podcasting.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesbishopio/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamesbishopio/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jamesbishopio
Website: https://www.jamesbishop.io/
Mentioned in this episode:
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Podcast Production from OneFinePlay
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Transcripts
Graveyard.
James Bishop [:Welcome to this service. I'm your host James Bishop, and I've been producing podcasts for years. What I've learned is that one of the hardest things to do is Keep your podcast alive. There's nearly 4,000,000 podcasts available today, but fewer than 8% are alive and kicking. I'm curious to learn more about these lost shows. Why did they start? What led them to stop? And what can we learn from their untimely demise? Who knows? Perhaps we'll even bring some back from the podcast graveyard. Let's begin proceedings. Hi, Jack.
James Bishop [:Thanks for haunting the show today. Hello.
Jack Gaisford [:Thanks for having me on.
James Bishop [:So tell me, why did you want to make the podcast?
Jack Gaisford [:I started the podcast as a way to highlight my expertise, to showcase the sort of network that I had, to talk to other business owners and marketers and heads of companies about marketing and content and video on social media.
James Bishop [:And what shows did you take inspiration from?
Jack Gaisford [:I wanted to do a podcast for years, and I think I never really had the time to do it. The business went through a bit of a slower period, so I thought, oh, this is maybe an amazing opportunity to Start what I wanted to do and get the podcast stuff. I had all my mics ready and everything sorted out. And, I've seen a few people post some stuff, but it was more it was more snippets. Obviously, I do like Steven Bartlett's star of the CEO. I think it's a great podcast. I I I love Joe Rogan's show. There's a few there's a few there.
Jack Gaisford [:I saw a bit bit of inspiration, and I just thought I'm gonna give it a go, and here we are today on podcast graveyard. So yeah.
James Bishop [:What was it that you were expecting to achieve.
Jack Gaisford [: downloads, maybe a: James Bishop [:How long do you think you spent making the podcast.
Jack Gaisford [:And considering that it wasn't an online thing. So we fully went out of our way to go to people in their space So it was convenient for them. We didn't wanna waste their time, but we wanted their expertise of kind of very, very busy people. We had, you know, global head of marketing of Lego. We had big, big, big CEOs. They're running multimillion pound global businesses. And so we traveled up. We traveled to London.
Jack Gaisford [:We traveled all over the UK to film these podcasts and to capture certain bits. I think towards the end, we started to do it in our own studio because it was just a bit more convenient to do at the cost of maybe, an inconvenience for the people that were on the show. We were probably spending upwards of 4 or 5 hours traveling, an hour or 2 filming, a day or 2 editing, A day planning. So you're talking probably a week's worth of time, in in consolidation per per episode. So a huge a huge time investment.
James Bishop [:That's massive.
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah, mate.
James Bishop [:It's huge. Especially early on. I guess that comes from your experience of making good quality content and Jack's Chats are amazing quality content. This is one of the things that fascinates me about it being in the graveyard is technically they're great pieces of audio and video.
Jack Gaisford [:I appreciate that.
James Bishop [:Last time we had a memorial, it was for a show called Sam Talks Technology. And the ghost of that podcast, Sam, he talked about the idea of go ugly early, which was to get started by not investing too much in kit and too much time and just start making and learning and evolving. I guess one of the challenges is when you know what you're doing. It's a blessing and a curse. You invested all of that time. The reward early days was low. Mhmm. And that's probably a contributing factor to tell why we're here today.
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah. A 100%. I also think there's an area here of reputation and and professional credibility. Not to toot my own horn, but I I'm known for producing some quality stuff. I don't want to then release stuff that is Subpart to that brand, that personal brands, that, you know, that what I'm known for. But at the same time, mate, you know, it is it's such a huge time investment. I think we went in very unknowingly into how long it takes to do that sort of stuff, again, which is why we're here
James Bishop [:now. Were you focusing on the video element or the audio element because you were making a podcast, but it sounds like you were really making that commitment to make videos.
Jack Gaisford [:Yes. So it was the the way that we were doing it was that it was predominantly for video for short form content. The the podcast was just a byproduct of what we could create and strip from that longer form conversation. My instant thoughts were, cool. It's a nice long form video that we can cut up, and we can also strip back put the audio version on Spotify and Apple Music and etcetera, etcetera, but the predominant version was was for video. But in terms of In terms of actually focusing on audio quality, we're not even necessarily the quality, but just the format of that experience probably wasn't really a of mine. It was more trying to get you I was almost scripting these podcasts to ask certain things that would elicit a certain reaction that I could use for a short form piece of content. So, again, it wasn't set into you professionally do them, which is why you're great at what you do, and you break it down into chapters, and you tell that narrative, and you really craft that story, which is gonna increase retention.
Jack Gaisford [: y higher than Maybe the first: Jack Gaisford [:So yeah. So the the approach to Audrey was not thought through, and it was predominantly focused on short form content to elicit certain social responses.
James Bishop [:So you approached it as a video, if we're honest. A byproduct output was the fact you could strip the audio and put it on Spotify or
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah. A 100%. I think the The video standpoint was was where a lot of our energy went into. I wanted to make sure that it looked amazing, that people could See that we knew what we were doing, but but, yeah, that's why that's why we're here.
James Bishop [:How much money do you think you've put into it? Because It sounds like you went hard on the time side, so you weren't messing around.
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah. A 100%. So, again, luckily, we had all of the kit because we we create content for clients. Right? So we're gonna have the professional mics and the cameras and the lights and all those cool things. In terms of physical money, maybe Couple a couple of quid maybe. In terms of time, a week per episode, probably you're thinking 8 weeks, 2 months. 20, 20 grand, maybe 25 grand agency time, if not a bit more. Big investment.
Jack Gaisford [:Huge. Yeah. A couple of grand an episode probably.
James Bishop [:Especially if you work out the value of all that time and the other stuff you could have done with it and the creative energy that goes around it and all the rest of it.
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah. 100%.
James Bishop [:What was the biggest obstacle you faced in making the podcast?
Jack Gaisford [:Time. Time. Time to produce, time to plan, time to edit. Not so much ideas, not so much getting guests. We had we had 50 people that went to as as I mentioned it, people are like, yes, 100% happy on. So we had a list of people, which was great. I then aggregated those people based on how well I think they perform on on on the podcast, But it was it was the time to do it. It's an arbitrary cost, but it's the cost of the team's time to edit that content, to travel up with me, to set up Cameras to physically film that content to back it up and color it and put it all together, that costs money.
Jack Gaisford [:And if it's not being spent on client stuff, It's gotta be spent on our stuff that is generating some form of income. Podcasts from my experience in those 2 months that I was making those episodes didn't do that. It died because I didn't have I just didn't have the time to do it. It was very much a me thing. And I think for me to spend, you know, upwards and I get it and it's an arbitrary number, but 2, £3,000 for an episode in terms of agency time On me, didn't make sense. So we decided to support the trade room, put it into something else.
James Bishop [:It's really interesting that you mentioned time and that The cost was in the labor and the time because you have those skills in house, you become super conscious of investing them and It sounds like you were very much making this show with a business head on. The passion was to help drive revenue. You wanted results. And I guess there was always gonna be that thing of, like, can we sustain this for long enough before it returns results? Podcasting is not a discovery platform. It's not a conversion platform. It's a brand build over a long period of time, It allows for that real deep, engagement. And for many people, it's a way that they can tell another part of their story your personality, to build more deep relationships. And there's that whole challenge of how do you keep it going for long enough? I mean, You know, the industry average is about 7 episodes before people quit, and you got to 8.
James Bishop [:It is a lot to do with being able to sustain your resources. You also raise an interesting point in what you were saying, which is not the first time that A show has made it to the graveyard for this challenge, but it feels like you made this show very much to meet the guest, not necessarily so much with the audience in mind.
Jack Gaisford [:100%. Really great.
James Bishop [:You wanted to have to garner business relations with further down the line. Mhmm. Digging a little deeper on that, it sounds like you probably weren't getting the turns because if you were seeing a return, you probably would have continued spending the money because it sounds like you were using it as a marketing vehicle and not wanting to give you too hard a time because this is a memorial and a, you know, an emotional experience for you, but and we'll come onto this in a second, but, like, the marketing of the show, it feels like this was an opportunity to open up conversations with people, and potentially, you keep doing that. And then on episode 9, the person says, actually, I'd like to give you a £3,000,000 contract. Well, suddenly, the £2,000 an episode doesn't seem very expensive. Also, if you had £2,000 an episode to invest in it, then you could have probably outsourced that to somebody if it was if you were seeing the results.
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah.
James Bishop [:So I guess there is an element of a lack of results. Is that right?
Jack Gaisford [:100%. Yeah. A 100%. Obviously, we live in a world where people need things fast. And again, from a from a cost point of view, from a team point of view, if that wasn't generating Some form of results, and I would qualify that as new leads, inquiries, new business, new customers, not necessarily views and those sorts of things, then it it doesn't make sense to do that if we start to see some real benefits and maybe that some of those Ships were really getting nurtured heavily into that kind of business stage where you start to talk about deals and contracts and those sorts of things. I would have Giving it more of my attention to invest into properly and sink some actual money into to to really push. But After 8 episodes, so after let's just say it took a week to do in in a per episode. You know, you're doing 8 weeks of work to see no tangible results in terms of Leeds business and the cash in the bank, etcetera, didn't make sense.
James Bishop [:Quick interruption from today's service to remind you that you're listening to Podcast Graveyard from One Fine Play with me, your host, James Bishop. Coming up, we get into the worst decision Jack made when making the podcast and we reveal whether the podcast should be brought back from the dead or forever laid to rest. But first, I wanted to find out what Jack did to market his podcast. Let's hear what he has to say. You made clips of it, which you posted across your social platforms where you already have reached. What else did you do to market the show?
Jack Gaisford [:Nothing. It it was just clips. That was it.
James Bishop [:What's your learnings from that?
Jack Gaisford [:Don't just post clips. I think, again, you know, it requires attention. It requires an investment of your time to properly, you know, think through. There was no strategy. There was no distribution plan. There was no business plan for that podcast. It was very much, Jack's had a new thought. I'd love to do this.
Jack Gaisford [:Let's just go for it and and launch it into the world. And I think very similar to what you you mentioned earlier, James. You mentioned there was a guy who talked about sort of releasing his his first version, working it through there. That was kind of my way of of Going all out, seeing if that first kind of iteration works, even though it was at a higher level, to see how you can iterate it and and tweak it and sorta make it perform better in the future, but marketing was not really a thought. It was more of the content itself as a byproduct, And it can be used to market and drive traffic to the full episode. But, actually, you know, do people on TikTok Who may be be interested in marketing or just scrolling through at 9 PM at night, see a short form bit of content that's 15 seconds that's, oh, this is really interesting. Now gonna go sit down and consume an hour long podcast and go to a completely different I don't know. It doesn't I don't know if it works like that.
James Bishop [:I think there's something to be said for opening up your heart to understanding that it might not be about consumption of the full length episode. There's lots of value in people just consuming clips. Maybe You've got people who are a fan of the show, who've never listened to a full, like, episode, but have watched 30 or 40 clips and seen lots of the most valuable moments and taken lots from it and now perceive you as someone of influence from just watching 60 seconds here and 60 seconds there. I think that's something that lots of creators don't consider. They there's such a judgment in the podcast space around how many downloads did you get. That that halo effect is sometimes not taken into account. Sounds like that was something that was actually really powerful for you. Well,
Jack Gaisford [:thank you. 100%. 100%. Again, the the the redistribution of those short form videos We're we're brilliant. You know, a 6 figure views, which is great. Again, an an amalgamation of of those ratings. Right? That's got to do something for brand presence and for increase and, maybe a bit of brand advocacy, you know, marketing my expertise. That's that's great.
Jack Gaisford [:But it's at that early stage, It's an intangible metric that I can't track. I can't track if someone now trusts me more. I can't track If the same person on TikTok is consuming all of my content and is now a big advocate of my business, it's all very again, not It's not necessarily arbitrary, but I just can't tangibly see those figures. If I could, if there was a way to measure that, maybe I could.
James Bishop [:There is a real challenge in podcasting with attribution, knowing the impact of your audio, but that's why you staying for a long enough period will end up paying off. Bringing this back to learnings from the podcast, what would you say is the worst decision you made when making the podcast.
Jack Gaisford [:Oh, that's a great question. It's also the biggest plus, And I think it was maybe the production value of it. I think spending that much time on episode, even though reputationally, It aligned with where I wanna be as a brand, as a personal brand. People saw it was quality. People felt that it was gonna be great value because it was at that sort of level. At the same time, it was a huge hindrance because it just took too long to do. Traveling for let's Just say 4 hours to do a to do a podcast I've heard is is half a day. That's a huge amount of time.
Jack Gaisford [:And, again, the opportunity costs that are pretty lost in that were huge.
James Bishop [:Especially for something that's unproven at the time. It's a big commitment. 100%. And conversely, what good decisions did you make about the podcast but just a little bit too late? Things that you wish you had seen sooner.
Jack Gaisford [:The narrative of that format. So, actually, how do you tell a story? How do you keep people engaged? How do you make sure it's not just another question answer discussion format? It's a real deep dive. It's a real breakdown sort of sort of vibe. Nicheness of guests as well. You know, I love all of them. Some some fit more than others in terms of the, you know, Big business owners, lots of credibility in that sort of space. Some people may be more up and coming.
James Bishop [:On guests, did you see a correlation between the social reach or the status of the guest and the consumption of the episode.
Jack Gaisford [:You know what? Not so much. I really thought that was gonna be the case. So we had we tried to have a big diverse people. Again, we have people from Lego. We had, the biggest VFX artist in the UK, Brandon, Bay Bayom. I think his last name was Really cool people, you know, and you've got people ranging from maybe 5,000 followers on social, some some in the hundreds to some who have, 10 plus 1,000,000,000 followers on social, really big engaged networks. I think a lot of it comes down to where they actively showing that podcast. No.
Jack Gaisford [:So their audience would have had to have known me, or I would have had to do some very, very clever searchability work and getting that in terms of keywords and gather names on those podcasts for that to be searched by their their audience as well. We did have, we did have 1 episode by a brand, I think, posted that it got, I think, like, 20,000 views in in an hour, which is which is cool. But, again, his audience are not the people that would engage with that sort of post. So it was whether it was a quality of that, which probably wasn't where it needed to be.
James Bishop [:I think that's a really interesting learning, especially if you're going to lean on guests to try and drive marketing efforts is, are the audience of the guest remotely interested in the thing that you're talking about, which quite often the answer is not Mhmm.
Jack Gaisford [:So did
James Bishop [:you mourn the passing of the podcast? Are you kind of relieved to see it die?
Jack Gaisford [:Oh, that's another great question. Mornings maybe not the word. I feel a bit sad, but it's it kind of part of me feels like I didn't give it my all. So there's a bit of resentment in it a little bit. I wish I could have found the time. You know, it's it's a matter of priority and what is most important. I wish I had found the time for it. Part of me is glad that I don't now do it because it was so much time, and I've I've been able to spend it in areas much better than No commuting for that long in terms of what it gave me in terms of results, whether I mourn it, that might be Slightly further down the line.
Jack Gaisford [:We'll see. But, yeah, definitely maybe resent not giving it everything And and properly, properly going for it. You know?
James Bishop [:On that note, if you were to do things differently, Where would you focus more energy?
Jack Gaisford [:1 would be marketing. 1 would be the overarching storytelling of that podcast. And I think thirdly would be the types of guests in their network that they have to be able to use as leverage. There's a few things, but definitely, marketing is one of the one of the biggest.
James Bishop [:From everything that you've learned, What piece of advice would you give to a podcaster just about to start making their 1st episode?
Jack Gaisford [:Best of luck. Absolutely go for it. I think just be aware. Yeah. Just just be aware that things as they do everywhere in life, They just take longer than you think they're gonna take. So if you've got the mindset of quick wins, you know, 3 to 6 months, you're gonna be absolutely So you're rolling in the dosh, living it up in the Maldives in New Lambo. Can't imagine that's gonna happen even after 6 years of running my business. That still hasn't happened yet.
Jack Gaisford [:I can't imagine from a podcast that you post once a week or once a month that's gonna quite do the same, but I think it's you know, I I wish you the best luck. It's an it's an amazing opportunity to Learn a lot about yourself, a bit of personal development to test new things out. And I think also just to have a bit of, respect for people that do it professionally. I think Only when you really give it your role and you really get in the trenches with it, do you realize how hard it really is? So my my hat is off to all of the people that Run and manage and build those professional podcasts for a living because it's, you know, it's very, very, very tough. So best of luck, that's what I'd say.
James Bishop [:I love that. That's probably my favorite answer to that question that anyone has given. Aving, did you enjoy being a podcast host?
Jack Gaisford [:Loved it. Yeah. Absolutely loved it. I love talking to people. I love learning about people's journeys. I take a lot of Learnings from just talking to where people have come from, what they've learned, what they've made mistakes on. It helps me in business as well and just general life. I think it's, you know, maybe admire certain people.
Jack Gaisford [:It's maybe build very strong relationships with people as well, which is great. And also, you know, I think you've got to have things In your day, you know, in your work week that just brings you that little bit of joy as well. Sometimes it can be very hard in in business and, you know, whatever you're doing. Sometimes you need those Little things to look forward to. For me, the podcast was one of those things on the Thursday. And what I can't I can't wait to talk to this person about this and just find out A bit of information. I always used to with my creative director there as well. We always used to come off on a high chat about what we've learned from it, what we can Tweak of our business models that, you know, this this successful person has done for this.
Jack Gaisford [:It gave us some really good learnings. But, yeah, it was I I loved I loved doing it. Absolutely loved it.
James Bishop [:If your podcast had a headstone, what would you put on it?
Jack Gaisford [:Failed or failed fast. I think that's very apt.
James Bishop [:As we bring this memorial to a close, I think it's time to have a look at whether the podcast should be resurrected or be sent to a heavenly afterlife. And as we've been talking, there's a few things that really stand out to me. I think the first is that you're a great Presenter, you're a great host, and you've got a great knack for being able to deliver a compelling story. But I also feel like for this podcast, I think what you did was you came up with a marketing vehicle and labeled it podcast because you didn't know what else to label it. In this whole story, you never talk about really the listener. You didn't do anything to really tell listeners. You didn't really make it for the listeners. Even during this conversation, when I pointed out about the listeners, you then continued to just to talk about guests, wanting to find more guests, building relationships with guests, reaching out to them, all that stuff.
James Bishop [:And I think There's an element of podcasting which allows you to do that, but I am fairly confident that's not where you should be focusing your energy if you want to make a great show. There are 2 stakeholders in a podcast, you and the listeners. They're the only people who turn up every week. And so focusing on those 2 people and how you're going to deliver as as a value as you can to the listener and understanding why the listener is going to turn up again is going to help you with growth and the results that you are ultimately, I guess trying to look for, although there's a conflict in there because the result that you really want is more deep relationships with people who will potentially become clients. So for me, I think that there absolutely is a future in the podcast. But I think what you would be best off doing is understanding what you're trying to achieve and changing the style so you can, in your eyes, compromise on the quality. Maybe record online, maybe recording bulk, maybe create a different format that allows you to be more creatively free so that the high production value, especially in the actual recording segment, is not as heavy, shall we say, or a much tighter script. That means a much faster editorial editing post, because what you really want is that FaceTime in the room.
James Bishop [:I would be really interested to know and we don't know this but how many of those guests ever listened to the podcast, ever checked back, Ever even know that it got posted. I actually know anecdote here of a client that we worked with who shall absolutely remain nameless, who came to me once and said, I wanna start a podcast. I have no intentions of posting it. I just want to get in front of potential customers. And he created a podcast and he would meet people and he would record the episodes, and that would be that. It just sat on a hard drive. No one ever checked, and he built all these relationships, and off he went. It's basically exactly the same or very similar motivations to the ones you have.
James Bishop [:So I think that your motivations don't necessarily align with a podcast. I think you should in you, doing what you were doing to build relationships with people, but I just don't know whether you should call it a podcast.
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah. I would agree, really, completely.
James Bishop [:You're burdened by production value, but your motivations aren't for the person consuming the content.
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah. I agree. Yeah. It's it's the time is the one that let me down massively. If I could figure out a way to make it more efficient because I did enjoy it, I would consider reviving it from the the podcast graveyard.
James Bishop [:I really appreciate you talking to me today and sharing your experiences of making a podcast and being open to discussing its end with the world. Hopefully, it's been a, valuable experience. It's some food for thought.
Jack Gaisford [:Yeah. A 100%. I think takeaways For anybody listening to this podcast because you are now my priority above everything else. I hope that you've learned from my experience. I hope you don't make the same mistakes, but at the same time, I kinda hope that you do. Because I think you got go on that journey, and I think you've gotta see it to believe it, Put it into action, get in the trenches, make those failures, and then learn from them. It's right, rinse, repeat, keep doing it, stay consistent, And ultimately, you will do better than I did. I just gave up a little bit too early, I think, but Is this maybe the start of the journey? Have I maybe gone through that barrier, found out the problems, ironed them out, And now about to hit back the swift right hook with Jack Schatz too.
Jack Gaisford [:Who knows? I'll do it.
James Bishop [:Jack thank you for your time really appreciate it.
Jack Gaisford [:No worries mate thanks for having me on.
James Bishop [:Rest in peace Jack's chats. I think you'll agree dear listeners, it's been touching. Before we go, let's take a moment to reflect on the lessons from this service. Number 1, respect the format. In a previous episode, we spoke about how a background in radio doesn't necessarily mean guaranteed success in podcasting. And today, we can extend this lesson to video. Jack has made a number of exceptional videos, but as he himself ted. Podcasting was a separate beast altogether and required its own unique way of thinking.
James Bishop [:Number 2, think about your audience. Jack admits that he'd chosen his guests based on who he most wanted to meet. This may be good for you as a host, but does not add a great deal of value to your listeners. Remember to think about their needs too when choosing guests. And last but by no means least Don't forget about marketing. I found out recently that the marketing budget for the Barbie film was the same, if not more than the budget for the film itself. It's therefore no surprise that it turned out to be one of the biggest box office hits of the last 20 years. It's all good and well making a show, but if you don't tell people it exists, well I think you get the idea, don't neglect marketing.
James Bishop [:At the last service we were haunted by Sam Sethi, host of the show Sam Talks Technology. Sam talks about the importance of listening to other podcasts for inspiration, being smart with how you spend your money and sticking to your principles. If you haven't already, make sure you have a listen. As we bring this service to a close we ask you to please pay your respects by recommending this episode to someone you think will find it Valuable. And if you or someone you know has a podcast that's been laid to rest and would like to give it a proper send We'd love to have you on. Please email us at podcast graveyard at [onefineplay.com](http://onefineplay.com/). A quick thank you to those who have helped make today's service possible. Kasar Faroozia was the producer and editor.
James Bishop [:Connor Foley was our assistant producer. And Selena Christofides put together the visuals. Special thanks go to Andrew Davy for the inspiration. In parting, let us not dwell on the darkness of this moment, but instead let us focus on the light that Jack's chat brought into our lives. Its memory will forever be a guiding star leading us through the night. I'm James Bishop, and this is podcast graveyard.
