Brian and Sherry are joined in the studio by their Institute on Community Integration colleague, Kathia Fernandez. Kathia shares a story from her time as an employment consultant when she supported a jobseeker who had two primary interests: fishing and woodworking. She describes the ups and downs of negotiating a customized job for the person at a small business that makes wooden fishing lures (...or is it fishing bait?).

Learn more about the Minnesota Transformation Initiative here: mti.ici.umn.edu

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Brain

Welcome to the Job Matchmakers podcast, where we share stories from employment consultants about supporting people with intellectual and developmental disabilities to find employment in their communities one person, one job at a time.

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Sherry

This podcast is produced by the Minnesota Transformation Initiative, a technical assistance center focused on expanding capacity for competitive, integrated employment across Minnesota. We are your hosts, Sherry Healey and Brian Begin, and we work at the Institute on Community Integration at the University of Minnesota. Thanks for joining us.

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Sherry

Welcome to another episode of the Job Matchmakers podcast.

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Brain

In this episode, we're going to talk with Kathia Fernandez our colleague at the Institute on Community Integration. Kathia will explain a job she supported a person to get when she worked as an employment consultant. Kathia started working at AISI four months ago as the institute's supported employment coordinator. This is a brand new position. In this role, Kathia is helping Eisai walk the talk by helping our workplace become more inclusive for all of our staff.

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Brain

Prior to coming to Eisai, Kathia worked for nine years as an employment consultant at a provider agency in the Twin Cities.

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Sherry

Welcome, Kathia.

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Kathia

Thank you for having me.

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Sherry

Thank you for joining us in studio today, and for agreeing to be one of our first guests on the podcast. Can you tell us how you got into this work?

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Kathia

I got into this work because I was already working in job placement is what I was. It was called I used to work for a I'm going to call it a provider, but I don't really remember. Like Brian said, it was eight and a half, well, nine years ago. So it was for the Department of Labor and Industry working in workman's comp when people would get injured in their job and they would ask for workman's comp if the employer decided that it wasn't a real cause to cover, and then people would sue the, the insurance company, and then the lawyer would contact the, the provider and, the agency I was working with.

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Kathia

And then through a series of different people that they were working with, they would go to the doctors and would get what is called an MRI and maximum medical improvement. That would say this person is too disabled to return to what they used to work in and the type of work that they used to do. And then they would work with someone like me, a placement specialist, that would try and find them a job similar to what they were doing, making similar, pay.

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Kathia

And then my job was to fail to not find them, to try and find them work that they should be able to do. But that they couldn't do anymore. And so in doing that work, I was trying to work with employers and, and get them job offers, but ultimately to decide that they couldn't do it. And it was so frustrating because I could see employers that were willing to do accommodations, but also the people themselves trying to say, well, this isn't helping my case.

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Kathia

And I and I could see that it makes sense, right? They got hurt and people are not taking them seriously. They deserve a compensation for this hurt that they had in the job. But it was so stressful for me because I needed to go prove in court that they couldn't do it. And, and in, in finding jobs for people.

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Kathia

I ran into the career consulting job that I, that I ended up in for eight and a half years. And it was, it was for people who did have disabilities, but did want to try and did one to make it work. And and it was it was the same but completely opposite. And so just very different.

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Sherry

From your perspective. It's got to be tough. Kind of goes from in in that realm. It's almost soul crushing versus, you know, in the new realm, you're you're helping people realize their dreams. You know, what a difference at the end of the day in how you come home and, you know, reflect on how it's impacting you and your life, too.

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Kathia

It's always soul crushing. I know, I know, I think.

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Brain

Earlier, it's not always sunshine and rainbows.

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Kathia

No, because you're always doing what the person wants, right? And sometimes you want it more than the other person. And so it's it's not. That was a joke. It's not always like rushing, but I think, you know, you you all asked me to to think of a story and part of the story that I'm going to share. It's a pretty cool story is one of my favorite ones, but part of it is also me thinking about how much I wanted something that is not the path that he chose.

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Kathia

But then it ultimately ended up being better for him. So there's a lot of stress that goes into wanting something for someone who might not want it for themselves. Right? Right. So yeah, I know I get what you're saying. You're absolutely right. This was a very stressful job that I had in the past where it's I, I can see how this could be positive, but my job inherently was to not be positive.

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Kathia

And right now, the job I had as a career consultant, working with people with disabilities, the whole point was to discover was to land somewhere better. And that was the idea when we first would do the intake. It not always turned out to be that way, but that was, where everybody started, right?

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Brain

What a difference. And so Sherry and I are excited, and our listeners, of course, are excited to hear about this customized job. And we'd like you to talk us through, your process for negotiating, work with an employer. But also that sort of pre work that you're doing with the individual.

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Kathia

So we did a discovery process and I think most people are doing discovery. Is that right? I don't.

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Sherry

I don't necessarily.

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Brain

Yeah I would say employment services aren't quite at discovery but I think we can all agree it's the gold standard to the work.

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Kathia

Okay. So with discovery we get to know the person for their interests. What they surround themselves with, what people define as their strengths, what other people define as their strengths, and and what skills they would bring to a job, how those skills would transfer, what barriers would get in the way. One of my favorite questions to ask the person themselves and, and family members and friends would be to say, what type of person do they get along with?

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Kathia

And then the second part of that would be to say, so how does that transfer to a good supervisor? Because you want to get to know your supervisor as a person and that they would respect to you. So during discovery, I met with this this person, let's call him John. So, John, we we found out that John loved fishing and he would go every day fishing, which we thought would get in the way of discovery.

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Kathia

But we ended up fishing with him, so we went fishing. He would even he would even fish. And, during winter time. So fishing was his thing. So we went fishing and, we just kind of let him do his thing. We hung out with him and just listened to him. He talked a lot about what was important to him.

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Kathia

And just in in the quietness, you could just tell that he was a very calm person. He shared his his story of how he came to services and how he ended up with his disability. And so that told us his story too. But kindness is very important to him. And just having time to share with people. So we spend time fishing with him.

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Kathia

And then we also learned that he enjoyed woodworking. And so that's another thing that I wasn't familiar at the time. I wasn't familiar, with I later picked up a woodworking, by the way. So he we yeah, we we decided that we were going to, explore those two, especially because he was someone who would fish every day.

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Kathia

So we went to some bait shops, even though he was not interested in retail, and he was not someone who would seek conversations and, and maybe doesn't fit the, the what is it wouldn't fit.

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Brain

Is not necessarily a customer service person.

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Kathia

He wouldn't fit that, job description and discovery. You don't seek out the job description and you fit the person. You just kind of seek the interests. So we went to beach House to talk about what is out there. We talked to the experts, so we went to the beach house and we said, and this is John, he's interested in fishing.

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Kathia

He goes fishing every day. What what happens here? What kind of jobs you have here. Also, where else can we go? You know, people who are interested in fishing. What else could they be interested in?

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Brain

When you're approaching employers, is the person with you?

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Kathia

Yes. Of course. Yeah I don't I don't want to do anything without the person who's said I. What would I say about fishing when I don't know anything? And also the other thing that I learned over time was I stopped calling places ahead of time. I don't want to prep them. And because a lot of times the the reply would be like, well, what's wrong with the person?

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Kathia

Or like, why aren't they calling themselves, you know, so I just would stop in and just be like a customer and, and with, with John and say, we're just stopping in and saying hi. And we happen to be super interested in this. Who do we talk to? And sometimes, you know, they're like, well, the manager's not here. Can you just call back another day?

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Kathia

And now we have a warm lead. So stopping in is especially with retail, right? Like they can't just throw you out the store because you're not stealing anything or hitting anybody. So it's important to know that, visiting is sometimes so much better than calling. So so that's what we did. We just kind of stopped and mapped out, a good circuit and just went to bait shops and, and looked for referrals of where to go next.

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Kathia

But back to woodworking. So for woodworking, I just I didn't want to stop at woodworking jobs or, seek out workshops to do or things like that. I just wanted to get to know what he knew. Just check, for understanding, I suppose. So we just went to to menards, and I said, take me to where you would go if you were going to shop for supplies.

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Kathia

And and he did. And then I said, well, what is all this? And he just talked to me like he was an employee there. And I was learning. And just because he was able to talk to me about the different things, and I could see that he knew what he was saying. And, and that's how I checked for understanding.

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Kathia

But this was very at the beginning of discovery, so I knew that this was something to explore later on, too, because you sometimes have customers that are like, yeah, I cook. And then when you are like, perfect, this person loves to cook. You find out that just means putting frozen dinners in the microwave, right? So you have to kind of check for understanding before you jump into like this person loves cooking.

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Kathia

So then after we understood the woodworking is, could be a skill and fishing was a real big interest. I put in the search terms in Google, and, this one small business came up, and it actually even seemed to be a workshop, not just a business. And so I called and I said, can we stop in? And there was some hesitation because immediately the answer is we don't damn well we're not.

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Kathia

Luckily, we're not looking for a job. I'm just seeing if this is something that would work well for John. Can we just stop in? This is something he's really interested in. And so the potential employer invited us in. Let's call him Dave. So then we got a tour and it was we had a great time. I didn't know what was going on half the time, which is fantastic, because then that meant that John and Dave were connecting.

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Kathia

And part of the time I play it up too, right? Because I'm like, John, do you did you understand what Dave just said? Right. And he just act really confused, which I wasn't acting, I really was. But you just inspired this conversation to happen. And my part is just really to be excited and be there and and look at them talking and then be invisible when they're talking.

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Kathia

And we got to tour. What this place does is they make laws and they are like a foot long, because who knew that fish for that big there for mostly for muskies. That's a fish.

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Brain

That is to be clear, to help people find jobs, one does not have to be an expert on every job that's out there.

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Sherry

Oh, but I really, you know.

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Kathia

I am a smart person, but fishing do not wish to understand that. I just like eating fish. Muskies are large, and they wanted to break the record for the largest muskie caught, with their bait.

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Brain

So you found you and John found a business that combined fishing with woodworking.

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Kathia

Yes.

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Brain

Yes. Sounds to me like there's something to this customized employment discovery process.

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Kathia

Yeah. It's right. There's something. There's something out there. And it was. It was great because it has to do with fishing. And so we we did the the workshop tour and then we talked to Dave about how this is fantastic. This combines his interests and his skills. It seems like you have a goal and you're shooting for it and you're really ramping up production.

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Kathia

Is there something here that you might benefit from? Because there's a lot of benefits here for Don, and that's the part where career consultants, employment consultants jump in and and get uncomfortable working on people's behalf. Right. And say, come on, there's something here. Right. And so Dave said, I, I'm, I don't know, I'm the owner, I have one employee that I pay sometimes and that's it.

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Kathia

And we're, we're okay. And I just, I, I follow it up. I followed up my email. I. I followed up by email. I followed up again and and until they say no, it's a it's a maybe. Right. So you just said, okay, when can I follow up again. And it was just a couple of weeks. And then he said, maybe there's there's something here, maybe I could do a contracting work.

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Kathia

And I was like, perfect, perfect, let's do this. And I said, John, you have a jam. As a contractor, we we've done contracting work before with musicians. We help them with the taxes. I didn't know what I was talking about, but I knew that there was an employment consultant who knew how to do that when they support the jam.

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Kathia

So I was like, we know how to do it. It's going to be great. Let's do it. You take the job and we move forward and you get started. And John was like, no, I want I want to be an hourly employee. And I was like.

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Sherry

No, no, you don't need a shooter. Yeah.

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Kathia

No, that's that's what you want. That's you're going to lose this job. You've barely got this job. See, this is when it pops back into, like, I wanted something and he wanted something different, and. But I got the job, right. That's sarcasm. If you're not getting an answer on the. Oh, man. And it was please, please take it and but but then I presented the scenario to him.

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Kathia

Would you rather lose this position and get an hourly job somewhere else? You just have to lay it out there, because that's how I was thinking it was going to work. And he said, right. And I was like, okay, well, this is a decision you make. And so then I went back to Dave and he said, I can't do that.

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Kathia

And I said, why not? And he said, the finances. And I was like, So then I googled and found the work incentive. No. What is it? The work opportunity tax credit. And that is for it's an incentive. It's an incentive. I think it's from the federal program that helps people who have been chronically unemployed or, fit certain categories that are about to be employed and gives incentives to employers.

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Kathia

And he fit he fit into one of the categories. And I said to Dave, I sent it to him and I said, there's this incentive. You are a small business. Check it out. It might work out if you offer an hourly employee hourly wages, this might work out. He's like, let me send it to my accountant. He came back with a job offer and it was amazing.

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Kathia

I thought it was amazing. I presented it to John and he was like, well, that's not the minimum wages. I was like, no.

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Sherry

I'm you're right.

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Kathia

But I don't like it. I don't like that. You're right. You just take it. I'm like, over here trying to break the law. And then I went back to Dave and I was like, please, can you just you you have to offer a minimum or more. And then now has job. It was great, but I was ready to accept two different job offers for John that John said no, no.

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Kathia

And then I had to go against my wishes, the most important one, and go to Dave and say, this is not what John would like. This is what is most important. And, and and it worked, right. He accepted the job that he wanted and he was ready to not accept the job, which is also important. We can't convince people to do things they don't want to do because it won't last.

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Kathia

Right? You would have been working a job that he didn't think he was getting paid enough. I mean, he might have left in a month or two or whatever.

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Sherry

So yeah, there's a couple of things there that just really, stick out for me. And one is your role as facilitator. You know, you weren't speaking on his behalf. You were. He was along, you know, going along with you. You were you were really just providing an opportunity for that relationship to begin and to grow.

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Sherry

And and then you got out of the way and let them, you know, build that relationship. And that's such an important role. I think that, you know, as, as employment consultants, we have to really work at, you know, stepping back and, you know, sort of allowing for, for that relationship to grow because that's the important relationship, the important and ongoing relationship.

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Sherry

And the other thing that really, connects with me is the persistence, the fact that you didn't give up, you kept reaching back and, you know, being respectful about it, only doing it every couple of weeks or, you know, just every, you know, you you weren't hounding the guy, which you were, you know, but but you kept up with it and kept going and kept changing.

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Sherry

You know, when when he came back with something that that didn't work for John again, you're in that facilitator role, which can be really frustrating, especially when you see how great a fitness can be and you really, really want it to work. But, you know, being able to, you know, to meet their needs. So in the end, you, you know, you did the research that needed to be done to find a creative solution so that it could be a win win for both children and for Dave.

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Sherry

And to me, it's just it's such a great story because you used all of those skills to create, a success for this individual. It's really amazing.

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Kathia

Thank you. I think the the credit really goes to both of them, because I think also when you were saying that I got out of the way, I'm also realizing how much I was involved in it was really me in the middle of that negotiation. But I forgot to point out that John asked for that. He felt uncomfortable talking about money.

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Kathia

He didn't want to be in the middle of going back and forth with Dave. And I think it speaks to his character that he does want to remain calm and have that kindness. And I think it was an uncomfortable situation. So he felt better with me as a, mediator, I suppose.

00;23;15;01 - 00;23;42;22

Brain

Awesome. A couple of takeaways that I heard in there, Kathia, is that, employment consultants do a lot of research, need to be resourceful going out there into the communities and, finding jobs that you might not be familiar with because as an employment consultant, like, yeah, I don't fish and I don't know anything about woodworking. So I have no idea.

00;23;42;24 - 00;24;00;10

Brain

And then also relying on your coworkers because I think you'd said it was one of your coworkers who told you about this small business tax incentive for hiring it. Was it a coworker who told you about that or you discovered that?

00;24;00;10 - 00;24;26;12

Kathia

Yeah. What I did know was that we do help people when they are, contractors. What's that called when you're a contract? Independent, independent contractors. So we do help people who are independent contractors with figuring out how to report taxes and how to pay for taxes. So I was confident in telling John, we know how to do that, even though I had no idea how to do it.

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Kathia

I knew that we could help him with that. If that was the reason why he was saying no to that job offer.

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Brain

Got it. Utilizing your network and, leaning on coworkers. And then also back to the research part when John was like, no, I want to be directly hired. I don't want to be a contractor.

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Kathia

What a nightmare.

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Brain

Then you then you, you put your researcher hat back on and you were like, I'm going to see what sort of incentives are out there.

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Kathia

Yeah, I would call it the panic hat, but yeah.

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Sherry

Yeah. But that, that your opportunity tax credit is you know it's it's really a great incentives. And we don't talk about it all that much. But but there are larger employers really utilize this tax credit like they, they know they embedded it into their hiring process. But small employers are really not aware of it. And so, you know, we can as employment consultants provide that, information to employers that can make the difference.

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Sherry

And in fact, in this case, it did make the difference between John being hired and not being hired.

00;25;41;18 - 00;26;07;02

Kathia

Yeah. Because it I mean, everybody fills it out. Right? It's part of the thing that you have to fill out is from your I-9 or whatever. But we don't know that it's, it can provide an incentive if you fit certain categories. It's like if you receive, Snap benefits or if you've been incarcerated or unemployed chronically or SSI, what else?

00;26;07;02 - 00;26;10;03

Kathia

Housing benefits like. Yeah. Yeah.

00;26;10;03 - 00;26;33;03

Sherry

So disaffected workers, employers can get, tax credit for all those different categories. And the other thing is you can fit into more than one category. So if you're a person with a disability who also receives Snap benefits, that's two that's two categories. It gives the employer an additional incentive. And it's not required to be filled out.

00;26;33;03 - 00;26;45;05

Sherry

But the larger employers make it part of the process. So so they make sure that they get those incentives for the people that they hire. So it's a really great tool in the toolkit.

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Kathia

Nice.

00;26;45;25 - 00;26;56;26

Brain

So Kathia, can you do you know where John is now? Is John did it all work out beautifully. And John just continued on.

00;26;56;26 - 00;27;18;24

Kathia

Well, I called my friend, the employment consultant, because I knew I was going to be telling this story and she said that they're great, and they broke the Muskie record 58in with their bait. No. Their lure. What is it, a bait earlier?

00;27;18;26 - 00;27;20;03

Sherry

It's a lure, I think.

00;27;20;03 - 00;27;24;14

Brain

Bait is when it's live and the lure is.

00;27;24;16 - 00;27;28;15

Sherry

When you put the bait onward. Right. Okay.

00;27;28;18 - 00;27;33;05

Kathia

He's crazy. He's. Yeah. This is definitely not live. Because.

00;27;33;07 - 00;27;34;10

Brain

Because it's made of wood.

00;27;34;15 - 00;27;35;08

Sherry

Yeah, sure.

00;27;35;09 - 00;28;09;17

Kathia

Prime's in San that drills holes in it. Hangs it to dry. I think it's important that we built connection that, that I stayed out of the way in the beginning and that they got to know each other, that they liked each other, that they pushed so hard. And to make it work. Because they saw a good fit with each other that it wasn't just me pushing this along.

00;28;09;20 - 00;28;51;01

Kathia

Because then Dave really saw John as someone very important in the process. And this, this was this was important. And also that we got to know John as someone who cared about kindness and being in a careful space, that we saw how silence was important to him during when we went fishing. Because later on in employment, I got a call from the employment consultant saying, hey, you're going to get John back on your on your caseload and I'm a very expressive person.

00;28;51;01 - 00;29;17;19

Kathia

So I was like, what? And I said, what happened? This is most perfect job. I bet I'm going to tell this story in a podcast in the future. And she she's, she said, well, they had an issue. I think, you know, Dave was having he's going through some stuff. So he showed up and he, he just had a bad day in front of John and kind of interrupted him and told him, you need to go faster and whatever.

00;29;17;22 - 00;29;40;05

Kathia

And then John just didn't show up again and just quit without saying. It just didn't show. And so I, I said, can I step in? Can I, can I talk to them? So I called John and I said, tell me what happened. And, you know, we talked. And then I said, is it okay if I call Dave and find out what happened?

00;29;40;05 - 00;29;59;17

Kathia

Because it doesn't seem like this is something that he would do to you, that he wouldn't really do. And so he said yes and then called Dave. And the first thing that I noticed was that Dave was so remorseful. He was just so embarrassed and sad that this is something that just happened that he did, that he was responsible for.

00;29;59;20 - 00;30;18;17

Kathia

And so then I said, David, can. And Dave just offered. Dave just was like, If John wants to come back and this is something that should have never happened. And so then I said, can I call John and say that? And so I played this little triangle, as I do when I'm try and get a job. And so then I went to John and I said, Dave just wants to apologize.

00;30;18;17 - 00;30;35;05

Kathia

And he just wants you to come to the workshop and shake your hand and that's that. You don't have to come back to the job. And then his answer was like, I'll come back. I'll go back to work. I just needed to know that it was that he was sorry and and the just that that kindness was important to him.

00;30;35;05 - 00;30;41;17

Kathia

So he got he went back to work. That's it. That's all that was needed.

00;30;41;19 - 00;30;55;01

Brain

That's great. The. So it's not just persistence when initially getting the job, but sometimes there's some ongoing persistence needed for things to continue to work for both parties, for everybody involved.

00;30;55;05 - 00;31;17;04

Kathia

Relationship repair happens all the time. With anybody. So if you really know the person because you took your time during discovery and they know each other because they developed a relationship, sometimes if that breaks down, then you can kind of step in and say, remember, you like each other and this is a good job. So you can kind of help that.

00;31;17;05 - 00;31;47;19

Sherry

That's it's such a great story and it does show also, you know, that it's it's not always linear. You know, that that sometimes we have to step back in and then step back out. And, and that is it's part of what we do. So, you know, I think it's, it this, this, scenario really reflects so much of what we see in the field.

00;31;47;19 - 00;32;02;29

Sherry

So thank you for sharing that story. So, Kathia, the final question that we're asking all of our guests is, what do you want people in your community to know about employment for people with disabilities?

00;32;03;02 - 00;32;45;05

Kathia

I think when we used separate people with disabilities, we're creating a special category and, you know, they're not people with special needs. And I think that if we can just make employment better for everyone, then it improves employment for everyone. Employment doesn't fit anybody's needs. When we would go to an employer and they would say, everyone does everything, everyone is feeling it just it wasn't working.

00;32;45;08 - 00;33;08;24

Kathia

So when I would step in with the customer and I would say, well, this person has the strengths and they are great at this and they will advance this. While other people can work on everything, the employers that were open to that idea ended up having a lot of success in those areas because it just it just worked really well.

00;33;08;26 - 00;33;53;25

Kathia

So if we can just influence a little bit at a time, then people have great strengths. Kind of like you said, I'm not good at fishing, so don't put me out there to get people food out in the ocean. If we can create these strengths, it just makes it better for everyone. So I think that if we focused less on employment for people with disabilities and we focus more on there are people out there, including the people we work with, that are really, strong in their skills and their interests and are excited we need to show up.

00;33;53;28 - 00;34;14;16

Kathia

We need to, present the options. They get to have those choices. We need to honor those choices and push forward. They are determined and we need to show up. We need to not give up on, making those connections possible with them.

00;34;14;19 - 00;34;15;09

Sherry

Well said.

00;34;15;14 - 00;34;21;11

Brain

All right. Thank you, Kathia, for joining us today and sharing some of your experiences doing the work.

00;34;21;11 - 00;34;22;15

Kathia

Thank you for having me.

00;34;22;20 - 00;34;31;29

Brain

And thank you, listeners for tuning in to this podcast. We hope you join us next time to hear another compelling story of one person finding one job in the community.

00;34;32;06 - 00;34;36;27

Sherry

Take care everyone.

00;34;36;29 - 00;34;54;20

Sherry

Thank you for joining us for the Job Matchmakers podcast, funded by the Minnesota Department of Human Services. This podcast is a partnership between the University of Minnesota's Institute on Community Integration and UMass Boston's Institute for Community Inclusion.

00;34;54;22 - 00;35;11;27

Brain

For more information on the Minnesota Transformation Initiative, visit our website. Linked in the show notes. We're glad you joined us, and we'll see you next time.