Have you ever noticed that the smarter you are, the more you question yourself and the more you struggle to make the original contributions you are uniquely qualified to make? Well, I certainly have and that lead me to connect with another coach who is just as obsessed with helping high achievers overcome their resistance and avoidance, Jane Elliot, PhD. 

In this compelling conversation, Jane and I explore her framework for understanding and overcoming the four shades of avoidance - the spincyclers, overdeliverers, upper limiters, and white knucklers—unpacking how these behaviors manifest and impact driven women. 

We shed light on why perfectionism isn't just a standalone issue but a symptom of deeper resistance, and how being identified as gifted can be a burden, leading to genuinely painful struggles to reach inner and outer expectations. 

Jane and I share our insights on the spiritual aspects of using one's gifts in service to others, the identity struggles of highly intelligent individuals, and the importance of radical self-acceptance and continuous personal evolution. 

We discuss her innovative framework, and her quiz, inviting you to determine which type of  “self-eating brain” is holding you back.  You'll hear the inspiring success story of Regina, a lawyer-turned-novelist, and how Jane's transformative coaching program unblocked her brilliance. 

🎙️Mic Drop Moment:

“I've found that for some people, particularly people who've been the designated achiever in their family, there can be this point where the achievement looks like its gonna start to serve them, instead of the collective and that is a very frightening moment."  Jane Elliot, PhD 

Episode Highlights:

• Resistance styles are more than just labels—they are lenses through which we can better understand our behavior and thoughts. 
• Perfectionism, often seen as a virtue, is redefined here as a mere symptom rather than an avoidance style. 
• The emotional burden of being labeled as "gifted" and pressure to perpetually meet others' standards.
• Jane's "self-eating brain" framework offers a compelling look at how intelligent brains can become their own worst enemies

The Four Types of Self Eating Brains:

• Spin Cyclers 
• White Knucklers 
• Overdeliverers 
• Upper Limiter

Which one are you?  Take the Self-Eating Brain Quiz! https://www.janeelliottphd.com/thequiz

The next cohort of Jane’s group coaching program Blazing Talents starts in September, so here is the link to find out more 

Jane on LinkedIn 

The Summer Strategy Sessions have come and gone, but I now have a 6-week 1:1 coaching offer in addition to my signature 12 week program.  Click here to book a free consultation to find out more.  

G: Why the self eating brain? I came up with those 4 types when I was, coaching a group that had some different kinds of personalities than I'd seen before. I had 2 groups running at the same time, and I could see these patterns. And I sort of just thought, well, what's the umbrella term for these different types? And I had used a similar phrase in coaching, oh, I've stopped it okay, your brain is starting to eat itself, let's go back. And I just thought, oh, they're all self eating brains. And I really liked it because I thought it captured the way that very intelligent people's brains will use the same capacities of analysis and pattern recognition against the owner of the brain right? And so to me, it really captured that this is something that happens to people who have, like, big, highly active brains.

H: It's so counterintuitive, isn't it? I mean, so many people and I know you're highly educated, you know, we both are involved in academia. You have a PhD like, you have a highly active brain. You have highly accomplished brain. You have a highly educated brain and a great love of learning, otherwise, you wouldn't have gone to school for so many years. But it's sort of, to me, counterintuitive that the people who love learning the most and the people whose brains are most attuned to learning, to acquiring information, to becoming smarter and wiser and more experienced and having more expertise. These are the very people who are most susceptible to getting in their own way.

G: Oh, absolutely. It's almost perverse.

H: It's like a really bad joke. Our own brains weaponize against us.

G: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, I mean, I was actually just coaching someone the other day and I something came up and I just had to laugh and I said, you know, no one worries whether they're smart enough like someone who's been told their whole lives how smart they are, right? I think that when you are, you know, some for some people, achieving being smart, achieving, being, using your talents, using your skills, being ambitious and fulfilling those ambitions gets deeply wired into your emotional life, right? And that does not happen for everyone.

There are some people who are, you know, busy tearing their hair out over their next book, and there are some people who are busy tearing their hair out because some dude won't text them back, right? Some people work, you know, there for some people, we have a similar experience to our relationship to work, achievement, goals, intelligence, ambition, as many other people do to relationships. Not that it takes that same place, but that there's the same drama of attachment and need and, and sort of emotional survival wrapped up in it. And, you know, there are other people, even people who are very accomplished and high achieving, for whom that's not the case and it's easier for them. You know, they're just having a good time.

They're not usually women, though. They are not usually women. Or, you know, the I also get a lot of male clients, and I will say very you see very similar patterns in, of first and second generation, immigrant men, you know, people from immigrant families, working class families who first in first in their family to go to university, you see very similar patterns, you know, because achievement is everything. And as soon as you have that wiring, the stakes are so high.

H: This is so fascinating. I mean, what we're fundamentally talking about is identity. And that's a really, the formation of our identity and the importance and the significance, and the connection as you've said between our identity as an intelligent, high ability person and how we feel about ourselves. And I 100% agree with you on the immigrant connection. Because if you've heard all your life, how your parents sacrificed everything, gave up everything to give you a better opportunity.

I just had this conversation yesterday with a client who's Japanese American. Literally, from the moment they can hear, they are told and it's like the expectations that are placed that you basically have to make this worth it. You basically have to there has to be an ROI for all our sacrifices. In the same way that someone who is identified as gifted, because I work with a lot of gifted people too. Most people think, well, I was gifted as a kid.

Hey, news flash, you still are. You don't outgrow it and most people are really self conscious about that term. They don't feel at all comfortable with it and when you unpack it a little bit, this won't surprise you. Hearing that you're gifted is not like a gift that you wanna get. It is basically a burden that you are going to have to live up to other people's extreme expectations of you indefinitely.

G: Yeah. Well, especially if, you know, your parents really, really value it and really, really care about it. And I also see people who struggle because of the reverse right? That, you know, it was important to them. School was where they felt safe. Their achievements were really recognized and the fact that their parents didn't care and didn't really even know they were in the gifted class created its own problems. But I think it's that identity component that is, that is so crucial. And it's, you know, a lot of the work that I do in some ways comes down to helping people get to the place where they would be, they know they would be okay without these gifts, like, not just okay in the world, but emotionally okay.

Because that's what's required to enjoy it as long as it's necessary for survival, it will never feel safe enough. You know, I was working with this woman just recently, and we were I was sort of drilling down. So what if so well, why is that so bad? And what if not? And what if that? And, eventually, it was like, well, then I'm not a good painter. Well, what if you're not a good painter? Well, that well, like, what is the point of me? What am I doing right? And that's where the intervention needs to happen. Because as long as there is no you that you like without that identity, it's always going to be fraud. You're never gonna feel it.

H: That makes so much sense, Jane, because everything your entire existence and your worth, your value, your right to be here rests on something that frankly, our intelligence, it makes me so angry and annoyed. And a really smart person is arrogant about how smart they are. I always refer to that as, like, that that came with the package. Like, you may have developed it. You may have done something with it. You may have, expanded it, but it came with the package. You didn't earn it.

So the fact that you may be smarter than most of the people around you, do not lord that over them. And if I really wanna be, snarky, I'll say, you know, the only thing standing between you and all those people that you feel superior to is a TBI. One good brain injury, one good you know, just hit your head really hard and it's a great equalizer. Like, all of your unfair advantages are neutralized just like that.

G: I completely agree and I've I think actually, when you've, you know, that I think actually, when it no longer feels precarious to be a brilliant painter, when you really own it, and you're like, oh, this is just what I have, it doesn't make you arrogant. It makes you humble. It makes you grateful because you didn't earn it you know? Like, there were, you know, countless women from similar backgrounds who worked just as hard to be Toni Morrison as Toni Morrison, you know? And you don't whatever makes that difference is not something that we get to own and we created. It's handed to us for a while. Yeah, I completely agree

H: And I personally think that is incredibly freeing.

G: I think it's super freeing too and it just makes your relationship to what you do feel much more it could to me, it I mean, this may not be true for everyone, but to me, it connects it to service. So I've been given this thing, so, apparently, I have to do whatever I can and need to do to use it, because otherwise, that's just negligence.

H: You and I use a lot of the same terminology.

G: I love it.

H: It's really fun, because I do think it's almost a spiritual practice. I happen to be Buddhist, so I believe in karma. And I think whatever gifts, talents, abilities, strengths I came into this existence with, they're not for me alone. They're not for me and maybe it's, overstating it, that we're all here for a reason, but how do we know we're not? So I'm gonna go with that like, how do I know I'm not? And it helps me to think that we're all here for a reason. We all have a purpose and a contribution. So let's develop that and have some gratitude and humility that we actually get to.

G: Yeah. I mean, I also think, you know for all of when we may still talk about this, but for all of the avoidance and struggles and that people come to me when they've been trying for 20 years to write this screenplay or whatever. And as hard as that is, people do not stop trying. And there is something in people that makes us want to take what is inside us that feels like it's uniquely ours and put it outside. And I don't know why it's there, but whatever that is, like, that is what I am in service of. That's the why I'm a coach is to help people who are stuck trying and trying and trying to get that inside into the outside. Because I think that it's amazing that people want to do that and that they don't stop trying. And I wanna just catapult them out of it, you know?

G: Thank you.

H: Because I love taking this quiz. I love the terminology that you use and a lot of it really, really resonates with how I think and how I help people. So let's go through it's called the self eating brain, which I will always love. And if people are turned off by that, they probably wouldn't be a good fit for you anyway because words are act and you mean business.

G: Yeah. And I'm playful right? I mean, I often use animal metaphors. You know, I often joke that I'm gonna start Jane's coaching menagerie because I'm always like, well, if a bear was you know?

H: Yeah, I think humor and I'm very playful and silly too. I think humor in service of facilitating growth is a real skill. It also is kind of disarming, maybe very disarming because it helps people in a way, be able to tolerate seeing the humor and the ridiculousness of all the things we do to ourselves to prevent ourselves from being all of who we're here to be. It is kind of ridiculous when you think about it. And when we can see the humor in that, we can find relief from it. So let's go through the framework. You have 4 different types, 4 different ways people get in their own way.

G: Yeah. So, yeah, you can think of these as 4 different avoidance styles. And when you take the quiz, you find you will find out your dominant style. You may have bits of the others, but usually people are pretty clearly in one camp or another. So, we'll start with spin cyclers since that's you, Diann. The spin cyclers, I say they may have ADHD, but it is not necessary. And spin cyclers avoid by using their curiosity their, smorgasbord of skills right? So they avoid by picking up a new project or changing careers or learning a new language. And spin cyclers need help figuring out when they are what I call tapping out. So when they're tapping out and starting a new cycle because of avoidance, and when they've actually just completed something and they are ready to move on.

And that takes certain kinds of reflection, and then when you find the times when you are avoiding, then, you know, that's the point to drill down and figure out what's happening. Over deliverers avoid by doing shit, they do everything. My classic of this type, you know, she's running 2 households, she has a super tech job, she's got chickens, she's organic gardening, she's a competitive cyclist, you know, and there is one thing that she really, really wants to do and she's not doing it. But instead, she will clean the bathroom for the 50th time or right? So these are the overdelivers. They also struggle with taking time off.

H: Yeah. Are they workaholics? If you wanna use a different terminology, would they be considered workaholics?

G: Not necessarily, actually like, the archetype I'm thinking of, she actually works pretty normal hours. She just has a million other things she does as well. I mean, it could be, but they don't like downtime because busyness is how they keep the conflict of wanting and not doing at bay.

H: I think that's my secondary style.

G: Yeah. It is not any part of my style. I am nothing like an over deliverer. I am fine with downtime. The upper limiter avoids by putting someone else in charge. So this can look like, oh, I need another training. I should ask someone's advice. I'm not sure if they know enough. So it's taking their own authority is always in the future, and the signing up for trainings is in particular. And it often goes along with a kind of deferential or sort of low key personality, like, sort of wrapped around this steel trap brain that the person is not letting out. I see this in my students sometimes too, actually, which is quite interesting.

H: I see this a lot in the coaching industry where I think the underlying belief and this is regardless of the person's background. Like, you and I had the advantage of coming to coaching as highly educated and accomplished professionals. Many people go into coaching with considerably less, gravitas and tread on their tires. And they believe that I don't quite feel confident enough to go after my ideal client, or I don't feel confident enough to raise my rates.

G: Sign up for another training.

H: Exactly, or charge for my services. But if I get this certification or if I get that and I literally have seen people go after certification, certification. They've got so many letters after their name, you have to turn their card over to read them all. And then they'll say, I actually think I need to go get a master's in counseling. Like sure you hell don’t.

G: Fuck you do.

H: Yes. Stop yourself. Curb your enthusiasm.

G: What's really interesting is that I partially crystallized this type, from someone who was extremely accomplished. And she was at the top of her field in finance, but she was ready to get even bigger. And instead, she was finding mentors and getting advice and, you know, so it was almost like it didn't that upper limiter style didn't come until she really reached the point where her success was scaring her, and often I've found that there's a for some people who've particularly people who've been sort of the designated achiever in their family, there can be this point where the achievement looks like the achievement's gonna start to serve them instead of the collective, and that is a very frightening moment.

It's okay as long as it's still kind of feeding back you know? But when it starts to look as if it's gonna split you off, if when it's individuating, that is the point of freak out. So, anyway, upper limiters are fascinating and they are the rarest type. Then there is the white knuckler, which is me. White knucklers are similar to over delivers in that they meet deadlines, they do stuff, they can be very organized, but they are suffering. They are miserable. Like, they are when I write about it, I talk about it being like you're constantly on a tight rope, and you just you never get to the other side. At every moment, it feels like you are going to if you make a mistake, you are going to fall to your death, fall to your emotional death.

And so white knucklers need to figure out what all of this achievement is keeping at bay that is going to get them if they pause for a second. So they can be very I mean, I wrote 2 books this way. I got a PhD this way like, you can do it, but you will be, that you're kinda dragging yourself by your fingernails, and you tend to be slow you know? I was not very productive because the fighting yourself is very intense.

H: Where does perfectionism fit in?

G: I think that all of these types I mean, I think of perfectionism as less a avoidance style as just a symptom that you may display right? So, and it's also just very selective. So I was very perfectionistic about what I wrote. But, I think that's not even the case. I had very high standards for what I wrote, but, also, once I liked it, I felt pretty unassailable. So it wasn't exactly perfectionism because I think with perfectionism, you're worried about external, like, if anyone else sees something they don't like. And I was like, well, I like it now. So, but, yeah, I think the reason I stay away from terms like perfectionism and imposter syndrome and things like that, not because I don't think they name something useful, but because they tend to be thought stoppers for people right? It feels like a diagnosis to me. Once they have that term, they're like, oh, well, that's what it is, right?

H: I'm this way because of that. Well, it as you say, it can…

G: That's my imposter syndrome. That's my low self esteem, and it's like, no, that's not an answer, that's a jumping off point right?

H: Making it an identity.

G: Yeah, and it just kind of stops the investigation. So I don't let my people use those terms because it forces them to be specific, and we get it keeps them thinking.

H: And also drilling down because I know your coaching style is that people think they know, and then you take them down to another level and then another level and then another level. And it's like you gotta get closer to the unconscious and internalized programming and, unacknowledged biases. If we knew, we would we're smart, we would've fixed it already.

G: Exactly, there's always, you know, I don't think you get huge emotional change without, without surprise. There's always a moment where you're like, I fucking thought that, like that? I mean, you may not be it may fit what you think about yourself, but it will not be something you've known forever.

H: That's fascinating. Like, realizing being confronted by the reality of what you actually think about yourself, your abilities, your opportunities, yourself relative to others, like what you actually getting down to the unconscious subconscious stuff and being confronted by it. Does it ever feel like an identity crisis when you get to that level of work with a client?

G: I'm just like, flipping through the client files in my brain. Sometime, yes. Or an identity evolution, I guess I would say it's more like and it sort of comes in 2 styles. One or there's different things come to the fore, I guess, I would say. So for some people, they've been very locked in an in a primarily negative identity, and there's a process of that kind of cracking open and then finding another person. For other people, they have a very strong positive identity, like the woman who was like, no, but I'm a painter.

And part of the reason those identities, you know, that having them under threat feels so bad is that's not just how you think you have value to others, it's how you have value to yourself. It's how you it's the way you found to like being you. And so then we have in those cases, you have to see what that identity see who that painter is when she's not the painter right? Because that's the person she's trying to get away from. And so there's a process of kind of dealing with that other identity and integrating what in you know, sort of dealing with the emotions around that and integrating it in whatever way. And then that lets the original identity that felt so precarious really be inhabited. Does that make sense?

H: Absolutely. And, you know, what I'm really struck by, Jane, among many things in this conversation is that it doesn't have to be therapy to be therapeutic. You are not a therapist.

G: Absolutely. No, I'm not.

H: Nor do you play 1 on TV. But what you do is fundamentally therapeutic because you are leading people with great potential. A tremendous opportunity to contribute who are literally stuck within themselves and suffering as a result of it to kind of uncover and recover the fullness of who they are truly meant to be. That's absolutely therapeutic.

G: Yeah, I think that, you know, when I found mindset coaching, it was really powerful for me, and it enabled a lot of transformation for me. And I think at first, I kind of even though I'd done I know you have a background as a psychotherapist, and I had done therapy forever, and there's no way I would have gotten through the things that, you know, I would have not gotten through my life as a white knuckler without therapy, like, it made it survivable. But I found that in some ways, I was able to cement and kind of really accelerate the changes through, you know, what I learned through mindset coaching.

And I think at first, I really bought into the whole coachings about the future and therapies about the past, and maybe if I was focused on a different problem, but when I started trying to help people with internal resistance, what I call internal resistance, you know, that really profound stuckness, there's just it would those that kind of approach of just focus on the future and what thought do you wanna think instead or whatever was just not gonna cut it. You know, we had to do deep work. That was the only way.

H: Totally agree. And I know it's something that you talk about on your website, Jane, that, you know, as a highly educated and accomplished person, and we all know that there's the coaching field is very broad and there are people at every level of competency, every level of skill, every level of ethics and integrity. I know you had difficulty, like, identifying with the term. I have difficulty identifying with the term.

G: I wish there was another term, not because I don't wanna be lumped in with people I might not have so much in common with, but because I don't think of what I don't think actually what I do I just don't think it looks much like what people think of when they think of coach.

H: Same.

G: Like the verb just doesn't seem to fit. I don't know.

H: Same. I think the work that you do is, in a way, almost more of a spiritual process. But when you use that kind of term, you start to get into all kind of woo woo and people get really confused. Maybe you and I will brainstorm and come up with a new term then.

G: Yeah, come up with a new term. That would be great.

H: That suits better. But I'll tell you, I'm wondering as we're talking about this of the different types, and I can easily picture individuals in each of those types. The overdeliver, the upper limiter, the white knuckler, the spin cycler. I'm wondering, like, in terms of humanity, what are the percentages? Like, how many people are there more spin cyclers or more over deliverers? What have you found to be?

G: In terms of the I mean, I actually weirdly have statistics because of timing. I haven't looked at them recently, but because of having this quiz, you know, I can see what people the responses people have gotten, and spin cycler and overdeliver are the most common, actually.

H: So spin cycler and overdeliver.

G: Yeah. And it's interesting because they're kind of the two ends of the spectrum right? Like, one is, like, hyper focused on, you know, list ticker and just regimented, right, like, just by the book. Like, these are you know, they are triathletes. You know, they are just nose to the grindstone. And the spin cycler is just sort of curiosity driven and just here and there, and where is my big brain gonna take me next but they are the most common. And I think that there's what I've seen from people in a way is that there's a kind of hunger for a recognition that sort of imposter syndrome and these other terms don't cover of being a certain being wedded to being smart and high achieving, comes with particular ways of being screwed up, right? And that aren't necessarily the same for other people.

H: If you have a big brain, if you have a lot of ideas, if you have tremendous potential, the expectations that you place on yourself, the expectations that are placed on you by others, and these adaptations, these different ways that we eat our own brain. Over delivering and upper limiting and white knuckling and spin cycling are symptoms of the distress that is caused by a high ability person attempting to meet inner and outer expectations. It's not fun, it's not fun. And, and honestly, I don't know too many people who can like cut themselves slack or give themselves a break.

If anything, they feel tremendous shame when they cut themselves some slack. It's what I have so many conversations with people who ask me, well, how do I know if it's self care or sloth? How do I know if I'm approaching burnout or if I'm just being a slacker? I think the you know, yes, everybody hurts, not just smart people. But I think smart people hurt in a way that is hard for others to understand, hard for others to have compassion for.

G: And as we said, feels so counterintuitive even to even to the people experiencing it right?

H: That's why it's so isolating. That's why it could create such profound loneliness that I'm smart, I should be able to figure this out. That's not how it works.

G: It's one of the reasons why I wanted to create a quiz. You know, I'd written an article about the 4 types that people really liked, and I wanted to create the quiz though because I wanted people to feel that sense of, like, oh, wow,it's a thing. Like, it's not just me, actually. The like, there's enough of us that there can be a quiz.

H: And a quiz adds your playfulness.

G: Yes, that's true.

H: It lowers the maybe even the resistance to finding out more because what we already know is painful enough. Why do I want to investigate further that will cause more pain, the playfulness of a quiz.

G: Learn something fun.

H: Well, yeah, like, this doesn't have to be more painful. As a matter of fact, it can reduce your pain and even the self eating brain, I I'm guessing one of the reasons you see more people like, we don't know if there's more spin cyclers in the world. We know more people who are spin cyclers take your quiz, and I'm gonna guess because I'm one of them. One of the reasons for that is because we always follow our curiosity. And just saying the term self eating brain, I have to know more. I have to find out what is she talking about.

G: You know, Diann, I bet you're right. I had not made that connection that it could the causality could actually work the other way and I think that that's probably true. I bet you that spin cyclers are more likely to take a quiz with that name.

H: And besides the quiz, Jane, what do you want people to know about you and the work that you do?

G: So I coach in a small group program only at this point, and I am starting a new intake. We will begin calls in the 1st week of September. So this is very small, it's 4 to 6 people maximum, it's selective. So if you go to my email go to my website, janelliottphd.com, 2l's, 2t's, get on my mailing list, and you will get a notification when places open, which is going to be, very soon.

H: Yeah, shortly after this interview is, released. So if you're listening to this shortly after it was released, the time is right, and you do a screening process to make sure I mean, I see the way you're very intentional and keeping it small and screening the people that get in it. You create, I think, the safety that is necessary for people to embark on this level of self discovery.

G: And because of that sense of isolation we've been talking about, it's the group I'm a firm believer in group coaching for the problem of avoidance, because there is so much shame. And one of the things I ask people when they're leaving my program, you know, what surprised you the most and the most frequent answer is how much I love the group right? They did signed up for a group program because they wanted to work with me and they thought they put up with the group part, but they wound up loving that aspect because it's very powerful so.

H: Because of the isolation and the shame, because they realize, oh my god, these people are fabulous, and they struggle with this?

G: Yeah, and also because we know going in that we are looking for something that very smart people haven't been able to find. So each of each of the clients is looking in their own people haven't been able to find. So each of each of the clients is looking in their own blind spot and it is much easier to figure out how to do that when you're watching other people right? Because you can think, oh my God, am I do I sound like that when I say I'm not smart enough right? You're hearing other people say things that you know are not true. So it sort of gives you a 360 view of the process when you are going through it yourself and watching others.

H: Fascinating. Did you originally do 1 on 1 and then just discovered that it…

G: Yeah. I did 1 on 1, and I just when I started to really concretize my process, I wanted it to be a curriculum. I wanted to teach, and I could see that with that kind of structure, because I do 2 calls a week in my program. It's a lot of process. T

H: hat's robust. That's robust.

G: Yeah. I just thought, you know, if I if I can do it as a group program with a curriculum, I can get people these you know, we can get these results in 3 months.

H: Can you briefly share a, success story, obviously, concealing all the personal details for a spin cycler in particular?

G: Oh, yes, I absolutely can. So this is a client named Regina. She had a PhD in a hard science and a law degree, and she'd left her legal practice and started a business, and published a novel.

H: Sounds like the people I work with. Yep.

G: And none of it was ever good enough. And, she left a lot of things because she was bored and she had a ton of judgment about that. She also left some things because she was getting too successful, and but she didn't know that that second category existed. She thought she was doing everything out of boredom or she actually said at one point to me that she was a slacker.

H: And after you stopped laughing about the story.

G: Yeah. And this is why you better use humor because these people's brains are just straight up lying to them. But, you know, we did all of this deep work about, you know, what exactly she thought was going to happen when she finally picked the right goal and reached it. And because that promised land was never reached, she always had to start over. And she wound up coming you know, finding me and coming to coaching when she didn't reach the promised land after publishing the first novel either, but she didn't want to give up writing. You know, she couldn't go on to the next goal, but she also hadn't found the promised land, so something had to give. And that's, you know, that's what we worked on. And by the time she left and you know, so she couldn't write the second novel. And by the time she left, she was working on the second novel.

She'd really embraced her capacity to work faster, than other people around her. You know, her business was, you know, growing in leaps and bounds because she was no longer trying to work the way other people did. And I think maybe the coolest thing for me in some ways I mean, all of that is great and that's what she came for. So, it was just that she actually now can see how awesome her life story is. You know? It doesn't seem like this catalog of near misses. She actually owns it as like the journey of someone who is brilliant and has amazing curiosity. And just seeing someone come into alignment with that person they really are and everyone else already knows, but now they can inhabit it. It's awesome.

H: That's not quitting. It's being complete with something.

G: I mean, when your plate is empty, you don't say you've quit eating dinner. You're finished right?

H: Oh we have to stop right now. If that's not a mic drop moment, I don't know what is.