Shownotes
Steve and Norm sit down with Master Sergeant Stephen Walter (retired), a Columbus native, Marine Corps Reserve veteran, and local historian. Together, they discuss the tragic events of Abbey Gate at Kabul Airport on August 26, 2021—the day a suicide bomber took the lives of 13 U.S. service members and wounded many more, including Ohio's own Corporal Kelsey Lainhart.
This episode is a sobering reminder of the realities faced by our armed forces—and the price still paid by many, years after the headlines have faded. We reflect, honor, and discuss what’s changed (and what still needs to change) since Abbey Gate, and find out how you can support those still living with its aftermath.
A Big Thanks to our sponsor, Harper Plus Accounting. They provide more than just basic transactions, offering expert business consultation as well. They go beyond the basics, providing comprehensive advice on saving, planning, and optimizing taxes.
Moments
00:00 Seriousness vs. Culture Disconnect
06:50 "Chaos From Avoidable Decisions"
14:47 Diplomatic Tensions and Tragic Losses
17:50 Abbey Gate Blast Chaos
23:09 "Soldier Perspectives in Battle History"
32:02 Marine Tragedy: Personal Reflections
37:17 Ford Halts EV Transition for Trucks
42:56 Politicized Reaction to Assault Incident
43:54 Community Policing Decline Discussed
50:10 Ohio National Guard Deployment to D.C.
54:23 Trump's Flag-Burning Order Debate
01:02:48 DC Crime Drops, Critique of Trump
01:05:56 Criticism of Trump's Federal Overreach
Here are three key takeaways from the episode:
Leadership Decisions Have Lasting Consequences: The decision to reduce evacuation gates from three to one, and the manner of the U.S. withdrawal, created tragic vulnerabilities that led to overwhelming chaos and loss.
Human Impact Is Ongoing: We heard the harrowing, personal account of Corporal Kelsey Lainhart’s experience—wounded at just 19, now facing ongoing medical and accessibility costs. Even with VA benefits, the financial and emotional burden on veterans and families is immense.
Donate to Kelsey's recovery here: https://www.gofundme.com/f/Kelsee-Lainhart-Fund
The Importance of Remembering and Learning: Master Sergeant Walter’s historical perspective reminds us that observing anniversaries like Abbey Gate isn’t just about honoring the fallen. It’s about learning from our mistakes, holding leaders accountable, and working to prevent similar tragedies.
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2025 Common Sense Ohio
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson, My Podcast Guy®, is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Transcripts
All right, here we are, common sense Ohio, Aug. 27. Already hard to believe, but anyway, check us out. Common senseohi.com Typically we would run through our top three, but today it's Abbey Gate and our guest, Master Sergeant Stephen Walter. That's Master retired from the Marine Corps Reserve. Reserve been with us now four times. We're going to cover some topics with Master Sergeant Walter. But before we get to any of it, we are brought to you by Harper plus accounting.
Steve Palmer [:Check them out. All right. Common senseohishow.com if you got a topic you want us to cover, just go to the website, leave us a comment, shoot us a question, go to the socials, wherever you do it. So I'm going to talk, Norm, I'm going to do a little introduction here and then I'll let you take over with Master Sergeant Stephen Walter, Columbus, Ohio, born and raised in Columbus, Ohio, in The Air Force 64 to 68 in the air Force. This is and by the way, this is one of these careers that you're like, how does somebody do this all in one lifetime?
Norm Murdock [:I have no idea.
Steve Palmer [:But he has. So Air Force 64 to 68, Columbus Police Department started in 1970. 40 years.
Stephen Walter [:40 years, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:In CPD. That's Columbus Police Department. But all the while, if that's not enough, 21 years in the Marine Corps Reserves while he was a Columbus police officer. So how about that. Anyway, thanks for coming back.
Stephen Walter [:Oh, thank you for having me.
Norm Murdock [:So the occasion is we have a lot of silly stuff in the news, Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce and all kinds, the Cracker Barrel re signage controversy and all of that stuff. And it seems to me in a lot of ways our country is not very serious. And we don't observe anniversaries too well or we don't remember what they were originally all about, you know, like Memorial Day or Veterans Day or Labor Day or a lot of our July 4th. There's a disconnect between things that are serious and really matter and our party culture that we seem to have. And one of the things that was Observed yesterday on August 26 was the fourth anniversary, the fourth marking of the tragedies and miscalculations and the ISIS attack on innocent people at the airport in Afghanistan that caused the the deaths of 13 service people and perhaps as many as 35 or 40 injured service people who survived. And one of those 13 who died was from Ohio. There's a little Ohio connection. And Master Sergeant Walter has studied this.
Norm Murdock [:He's a historian. You lecture to groups at the Library. And in Grove City you have a series that you occasionally put on. And so you're a student of history, you're a retired Marine. And 11 of the 13 were Marines. One was a U.S. navy corpsman associated with those Marines, and one was Army. And so, Master Sergeant, without further ado, remember those.
Norm Murdock [:We'll go through the names, but perhaps you could give us a thumbnail sketch before we read the names of what happened factually. Just a thumbnail. Then we'll get into the details.
Stephen Walter [:What happened factually is we were in a process of getting Afghanis on planes to return the United States and we had reduced three gates to one gate, which caused quite a bit of consternation and delay. And it was a suicide bomber's paradise. All people packed in, not really aware of what could happen. And when the suicide bomber detonated himself, he had thousands of steel balls going at supersonic speed which killed 11 US service members, nine of whom armor Marines and wounded many, many others, including Corporal Kelsey Lanehart, who was recruited out of Cincinnati as an intelligence specialist. And we'll get to here more in detail later. But of those who were lost were Navy Petty Officer 3rd Class Max and Stowiak, Army Staff Sergeant Ryan Knouse and the following Marines. Lance Corporal David Espinoza, Sergeant Nicole G. Marine Staff Sergeant Darren Hoover, Marine Corporal Hunter Lopez, lance Corporal Ryan McCollum, Lance Corporal Dylan R.
Stephen Walter [:Barola, Lance Corporal Kareem Nokai, Corporal Deegan Page, Corporal Sergeant John Irresario, Corporal Humberto Sanchez and Lance Corporal Jared M. Schmitz.
Norm Murdock [:And most of these people, I'm looking at their ages. Only one was in their 30s. They were all 20 to 23 years old. Every other one of them from places like Rio Bravo, Texas, Salt Lake City, Indio, California, Jackson, Wyoming, and Max Soviak, who you mentioned, from Berlin Heights, Ohio, which is Cuyahoga county, up by the lake. And he was 22 years old. He was the hospital admin.
Stephen Walter [:Right. The Navy has hospitalmen and some of whom are corpsmen who actually travel with Marine infantry companies. Actually, I see them as more Marine than I do Navy in that respect.
Steve Palmer [:Well, the tragedy of this, I mean, we talked a little bit about the history or that day, like the factually what happened that day. But the tragedy of this is always, to me it seemed that probably like most of these kind of things, completely avoidable. But I guess it was sort of like this last minute decision, we're pulling out and damn the torpedoes. It doesn't matter. We're going to get all our guys out of there. And it just seemed like it turned to chaos. Can you comment any on how. How that went down well or why that went down well?
Stephen Walter [:I have some thoughts on the matter.
Steve Palmer [:Or just give us your thoughts. Right. Yeah.
Stephen Walter [:We created Bagram air base in 20 or some years ago, and it's only an hour's drive from Kabul, but somehow the order came down for us to leave that base. So in the middle of the night on July 1, 2021, all the Americans moved out. Didn't let our Afghani people know that, hey, we're leaving. So we left a large amount of equipment and supplies there that were looted by the citizens before the Afghan soldiers even woke up and knew they were alone.
Steve Palmer [:You mean the Afghan soldiers that were there that were sort of with us?
Stephen Walter [:Yes.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Norm Murdock [:They didn't even know we were leaving?
Stephen Walter [:No, we didn't tell them. Left in the middle of the night.
Norm Murdock [:And the figure that I read, again, Wikipedia, is not always the best source, but just doing a little light research, the figure I heard of what was left at the base, besides the base itself, which is, I think, now being used by the Chinese, but the base, in addition to the base itself, which we built, $85 billion of American military equipment was left there.
Stephen Walter [:Wouldn't surprise me, but, I mean.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, that's just unbelievable.
Stephen Walter [:It is, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And what was the thinking? You know, I'm asking sort of rhetorically, you wonder. I remember watching this when it was happening in real time on the news. Like, what? And you heard this, and it just felt like. It just felt like one of those sort of like the hostage crisis. It just felt like we looked like idiots, and maybe that's not the right word. You just feel like it was such a blunder that didn't have to happen. Like, all of a sudden, we're pulling out. There's this.
Steve Palmer [:Nobody really knows what's going on. It doesn't seem like it was organized. It didn't seem like it was planned very well, or if it were planned, then it was a bad plan. I mean, what. What informed all that in the first place behind the scenes? Do you have any idea on that?
Stephen Walter [:Not really. I could put a couple of things together. Like President Trump in his first administration and Joe Biden indicated we were leaving.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. So, I mean, it was saying we're going to leave. And I know Trump was sort of like inching towards that, but then would pull back and then inch towards that and then not leave. And then Biden comes in and says, well, it's done.
Stephen Walter [:And originally at the airport in Kabul, the Taliban were helpful. And then when they closed two gates and only had one, that's what they recruited the bomber to do what he.
Steve Palmer [:Did, to come in and do what he did.
Norm Murdock [:So my understanding was. Or is that the new administration, because four years ago, that would have been Biden's first year as president, he was looking for, like all politicians, he was looking for a win, a success. And I think against the military advisors who were telling him, don't do this. He wanted to go ahead and get us out of a war. And the thought was, let's just get the hell out of there. We had been there 20 years. The Afghanistan followed on nine, 11. Right.
Norm Murdock [:We're chasing Osama bin Laden around Afghanistan and Pakistan. And so that's how we got there. And now we're gonna get out and we're gonna put nice even. I think the idea was even get out on September 11th. Right. Cause this happened on October or August 26th. So the idea was, we'll be all out on the 20th anniversary. Nice, neat ribbon and a bow and.
Norm Murdock [:And we're out.
Stephen Walter [:It didn't work out that way.
Norm Murdock [:It didn't work out that way. But I think that was the political impetus. And then, of course, it's come out since then that his military advisors, Milley and the rest, told him not to do this. But at the time, they didn't want to say that they're being loyal to the commander in chief, but now they're supposed to be. I'm. I saw where the current Sec Def is promising a report to the families in May of 2026 to disclose everything. They're going to open up the books on this, so we'll find out more. That's just my take.
Norm Murdock [:And I guess that is kind of what most people are thinking.
Stephen Walter [:Well, along those lines, one of the Marines who was seriously injured was Sergeant Tyler Vargas Andrews. He lost his left arm and right leg. He was a sniper around the Abbey Gate. And he had a description of the man who was probably the Bobber. He had him in his sights, but he couldn't get permission to engage. So on March 8th of 2023, Sergeant Tyler Vargas Andrews testified to all that, including the hundred ball bearings that ravaged his body at that particular time. Told Congress, and I've seen films of his presentation, and he couldn't get through without a few stops.
Steve Palmer [:I imagine not. I mean, that's. How do you live with that?
Stephen Walter [:Well, why have a trained sniper if you're not going to let him do his job? But everybody Seemed to be concerned about a nice, orderly withdrawal. We don't want to leave any dead bodies behind.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And we had the Taliban in this uneasy truce, temporary truce. I mean, here we had fought the Taliban, kicked them out of power in Afghanistan. The president of Afghanistan had left 30 days before this incident.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah. He was smart.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So Afghanistan was falling apart, as Steve mentioned. It was chaos. We had given up the air base political decision.
Stephen Walter [:Our air base.
Norm Murdock [:Our air base. The president of Afghanistan had flown the coop and we had formed some kind of uneasy understanding with the Taliban that they're going to run security at the airport along with US military, which they.
Stephen Walter [:Did for a while.
Norm Murdock [:Which they did for a while. And in the meantime, the Taliban's enemy and our enemy. The enemy of my enemies is my friend. My friend. Isis K is the guy who blew up the suicide vest. So he's not friends with the Taliban. He's not friends with us. It's a third element that's in there.
Norm Murdock [:And it killed, I think, 183Afghanis.
Stephen Walter [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:In addition to our 13 military personnel. So almost 200 people died and dozens more injured. And so this entire episode, I think, was preceded by a period of time where prior to coming into office, Trump had some pretty serious talks with ISIS and Taliban about, you touch an American soldier, they'll be hell to pay. And I think there was a two year interim there where no US Service personnel up until Abby Gates were killed in Afghanistan. And a lot of that was this gunboat diplomacy, if you will, by Donald Trump. And this certainly, this is like the Marine Corps barracks bombing in Beirut. This was a mass casualty event October of 82, and we lost over 200 Marines in that barracks and at the airport again, but in Lebanon. So I'm curious if you, having reviewed the history on this, if you have any insights into allegedly the warnings that the State Department, the CIA, various other agencies were giving the commanders on the ground warnings that they felt, like you said, this is fertile ground for a suicide bomber.
Norm Murdock [:And apparently there was testimony before Congress leading up to this. Like there were warnings even before this. Yes.
Stephen Walter [:And people, well, we got to be out by September 11th.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Make it look nice politically.
Stephen Walter [:But the mass chaos that was associated with Abbey Gate at that time is just something unbelievable. This is a book entitled Sacrifice by Ron Farina. He did exhaustive research into that part of our experience into this incident.
Norm Murdock [:Yep.
Stephen Walter [:And I will read some of his excerpts. A suicide bomber had a high, real high potentially imminent probability. This is what Corporal Leinhardt, who was an intelligence Operative for the Marine Corps was saying, okay.
Norm Murdock [:And this is the young lady whose button you're wearing?
Steve Palmer [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. She was injured in this.
Stephen Walter [:Badly. I'll get to that.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Stephen Walter [:Surrounding the Abbey Gate, which was the only one open, was a deep moat that eventually filled with feces, urine, garbage, and many, many women with children, or as the author describes it, a sea of people. Thick, loud, teeming. One man's hatred ripples through the crowd he's intent on killing. Nothing protects a human being standing in the way of a supersonic blast driving thousands of ball bearings towards anything in its path. The world turned upside down in a millisecond. Corporal Lainhart is hanging on the wall. Shrapnel has blown a hole in her right arm. The blast smashed into her lungs, forced a grunt through her parched lips, which she knew came from her, but didn't sound like her ball bearings riddled her body.
Stephen Walter [:One darts through her flesh, finding a pathway, the narrowest of lines nicking her spine. One more ball lodged in her skull. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:And that ball is still in her skull to this day because they can't surgically remove it safely.
Stephen Walter [:Now, at that time, she was paralyzed, couldn't move her legs and so forth and so on. And she got help from Marine Sergeant Wyatt Wilson to carry her to a combat surgical hospital before he collapsed.
Norm Murdock [:Now, Corporal Kelsey Lainhart, who was there, the duty of these Marines was largely, if I understand this, at the gate, why were they there? Was to check credentials to see if these people were legitimate to go through that gate and possibly get a ride out of Afghanistan.
Stephen Walter [:To that end, we had female evacuation teams composed of women Marines who had searched the women. Because of that culture. Yeah, that's the correct thing to do. But it was just a mess.
Norm Murdock [:And two of the KIA, two of the 13, obviously, Corporal Kelsey Leinhart was injured. She survived. But two of the dead were female.
Stephen Walter [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:And they were sergeants in the Marine Corps. They were not lowly, you know, new recruits. They had risen through the ranks to sergeant.
Stephen Walter [:Sergeant Nicole G. Was with Kelsey Lahart at the Abbey Gate when the blast occurred. And Sergeant Johnny Rosario was also killed. So she had to be in the area.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And not only supervisory, but also if a female's coming through, a female Marine or Army was expected to pat down the female Afghanis coming through that gate.
Stephen Walter [:Yes. Let's get a little bit of information on that.
Norm Murdock [:And it was a slow process. Right, because you're. You're patting down people and going through their luggage and carry on stuff to make sure. That they're not enemy combatants. I mean, that's the whole point of having this checkpoint.
Stephen Walter [:Okay. The author tells us there's no place for the men or women to go other than back across the sewage canal. They're incredulous. The look of disbelief twists their faces. They brave the traverse, certain it would be a one time thing. So it wasn't.
Norm Murdock [:So we have hundreds, if not thousands of interpreters of people that housed.
Stephen Walter [:Helped us.
Norm Murdock [:Helped us. They're queued up in a line because the Taliban's taken over Afghanistan.
Stephen Walter [:Well, we've closed two of the gates.
Norm Murdock [:Well, but what I mean is culturally right, women had the right to vote. There were schools, little girls could go to school. This whole thing's changing overnight because the Taliban is reacquired power in milliseconds. And so we have all of these people that feel like, well, America, you know, it's the only option. Yeah, I mean, they're counting on us like the South Vietnamese were counting when we left Vietnam. I'm going to get killed or tortured or sent to a camp or something, or worse by the Taliban if I stay. So these people are queued up to get through that gate. It's an urgent situation for them.
Stephen Walter [:Absolutely. And their children.
Norm Murdock [:And so if you're an ISIS person and you want to really damage your enemy. Well, I'm going to blow up people that help the Americans. This is like a perfect target for them.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah. The Americans aren't allowed to shoot at them ahead of time.
Steve Palmer [:Well, let me from a historical. I was a history major, I can't say it was a good one, but I enjoy history now. And one of the things there's a book I remember reading, it was John Keegan wrote a book long ago, he's a British historian called Faces a Battle. And what he did is he took sort of this idea of, he took various battles and then he would look at them from like literally boots on the ground. Like, what are the soldiers thinking? What are the soldiers? What's their mindset or what's really going on? He'd sort of give you the big picture. And I'm wondering what you're talking about, Norm, is the other people there, not our soldiers. But what about our soldiers? Because they have to. You almost can think they're saying, what the f is going on here? We were here two days ago, or however long ago.
Steve Palmer [:Everything was sort of stable and now.
Norm Murdock [:It'S chaos and here's our allies trying to get out of the country.
Steve Palmer [:I know our soldiers. I was not one you were. And thank you for your service, obviously. But what's the mindset of how you handle something like that when you're a soldier on the ground?
Stephen Walter [:Well, they had male Marines there too to help keep the crowd back. And they did pretty well, but just too many and too many desperate people. I don't care how many Marines are on that wall. I'm getting over and I'm getting my child over. Matter of fact, Corporal Adar was holding a five year old boy when the blast occurred.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Stephen Walter [:Most likely he was lost too, because she was just a rag doll on the wall, as the author tells us. Shrapnels blown a hole in her arm. Ball bearings riddle her body.
Norm Murdock [:And she's holding a baby before this happens.
Stephen Walter [:A five year old.
Norm Murdock [:A five year old. So probably while the mother's getting patted down or her baggage.
Stephen Walter [:No, she was still stuck in the sewage canal.
Norm Murdock [:Handed the baby up out of the canal. Hold this while I get up.
Stephen Walter [:Kelsey was bleeding from multiple wounds. Steel bearings, shrapnel, dirt, pebbles mottled the right side of her body. A ball bearing his large inner skull would remain there. Removal risky and more harm than good.
Norm Murdock [:Now, my understanding is back in May of this year, the Americans through some kind of work with, again, it might have been the Taliban currently in power, but somehow the person who planned this attack we allegedly have arrested and are holding for trial. And I guess that has not happened yet, but they have Abdul somebody and he is in American custody through a chain of skullduggery.
Stephen Walter [:Yes, interesting.
Norm Murdock [:We have the person who's responsible for all this, allegedly. And this report's supposed to come out next year according to SecDef Hegseth, so we'll see. But it was just one bomber who did all this damage, killed almost 200 people. And my understanding was, of course the people who hate our military immediately seized on the fact that Marines and army returned some fire because allegedly there was sniper fire or some kind of rifle fire coming into the crowd by associates of the suicide bomber. That there was a cordon around this crowd and that riflemen were shooting into the crowd and our troops were returning fire.
Stephen Walter [:That's what they're supposed to do.
Norm Murdock [:And evidently blaming some of the injuries and death. And probably there was some, you know, this friendly fire. After all, it's a crowd. But they wanted to make that the scandal, not the bombing that killed the 200 people. But the fact that we would return fire was somehow a scandal.
Stephen Walter [:Well, I think two of those who speak the most know the least. Yeah, probably never Wore a uniform, never been shot at. But I'm going to tell you how to respond if you are.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:After the fact.
Norm Murdock [:After the fact. After the fact. Right. When you can sit in your easy chair and assess what a 20 year old Marine is trying to do to save his fellow people, plus defend the crowd.
Stephen Walter [:Well, I.
Norm Murdock [:And all he's got an M4 or something.
Stephen Walter [:I asked corporal ain't hard about that. And she says, I was just doing my job.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right. Pretty tough lady.
Stephen Walter [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:To be in that situation. And I don't have her age, but.
Stephen Walter [:I assume she was paralyzed at 19.
Norm Murdock [:She was 19.
Stephen Walter [:She went in the Marine Corps as a 17 year old right after graduation.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Stephen Walter [:I got through boot camp and intelligence school and that was sent to Camp Lejeune.
Norm Murdock [:So she was 19 that day. Yeah. That's incredible. Wow.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah, I get it. The fact she lived is amazing.
Norm Murdock [:So you have. Which we can put on our website. We'd be happy to put that flyer. You have a flyer in support of one of these survivors. And she's just one of them, but she's an important one.
Stephen Walter [:She was recruiter out of Cincinnati.
Norm Murdock [:If you'll leave that with us, our producer Dan will get this up on our website. So that if people want to get involved in considering a donation.
Stephen Walter [:Yes. My name for her medical expenses, email address are on the flyer. So if people need any additional information.
Norm Murdock [:They can get ahold of you directly.
Stephen Walter [:We do have the GoFundMe app there at her address.
Norm Murdock [:And Harrison, Ohio with the donation address. And she was recruited out of Cincinnati, you said?
Stephen Walter [:Yep.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steve Palmer [:For those who don't know, and I'm one of them, I confess, like, what is the. Aside from what we're trying to do to help her, what does the military do, what does the government do and what kind of benefits does she get? Obviously it's not enough.
Stephen Walter [:Well, in my quest to help the family, I've come across some interesting things. I have Marines who refuse to help her because she gets va. Well, if she ever needs a manually operated car to drive, you're going to probably have to lay out at least $75,000. The VA is not going to come.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, they're not getting there.
Stephen Walter [:I'm surprised. And some of the churches I'd contact that they won't even respond.
Steve Palmer [:What's your take on what the holdback is or what's the.
Stephen Walter [:They don't care.
Norm Murdock [:Wow. Even some of the Marines that you know will not contribute. That's crazy.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah. Retired Marines too. What's all that? I Hear about no Marine Left Behind? Well, maybe some of them are for whatever reason. And if these were retired Marines, they could easily throw in $20 that they would have used for a case of beer on a Saturday.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, I mean, this is one of these. You see stuff like this and you realize how little it takes from a lot of people to make a difference. So $5 multiplied by every retired Marine and who doesn't have $5 to help out somebody and it just, I don't know, I cannot get the message out. We will because. And we'll certainly get our wallets out.
Stephen Walter [:Well, I. Texas Roadhouse in Grove City is my base of operations and I wear this shirt. I never solicit anybody unless they're wearing a Marine garb. But then people ask about her and I share the information and give them a flyer and so.
Norm Murdock [:Well, Sergeant, come on, I gotta brag on you a little bit. Yesterday you went into Texas Roadhouse in your Marine blues, you were in your full dress uniform and people came up to you and donated. I think you said 70 bucks. $70 without you even asking. They just came up. Oh, I see this button. Tell me this story.
Stephen Walter [:Well, I don't have this on my blue.
Norm Murdock [:They knew that you were there frequently.
Stephen Walter [:Well, I was there to commemorate.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, yesterday.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:So I mean you live it, you live this life. You're too modest to tell people.
Stephen Walter [:Well, this is the second mass casualty of Marines with which I've been associated. Lima Company, August 3rd of the year 2005. I got a call a little bit after midnight. When that happens is not to go out and have another beer. And I got up, went to the reserve center and had about an 18 hour day dealing with that and then receiving the remains of a Marine who'd been killed in on July 28th. So when this hit, I went into a self enforced restriction. Hardly left the house. What I did, I'd go to the Y to do my weightlifting, but I'd look at the floor and believe it or not, not talk to anybody.
Stephen Walter [:So they kind of knew something was amiss.
Norm Murdock [:What's wrong? And the powerlessness felt for Lima Company, you were the actual person that was preparing them for their mission, correct? Part of your responsibilities on that?
Stephen Walter [:A little bit, yeah.
Norm Murdock [:One of the things getting them outfitted.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah, One of the things I was able to do, I called couple of my cop buddies who were lawyers and every Marine and corps in that unit had a personal one on one with a lawyer to lay out things, never knowing that they'd have to use it a Will. Yeah, yeah, but they took care of.
Norm Murdock [:That and getting their affairs sorted before long beforehand.
Steve Palmer [:Well, what's to come on this on Abby Gate? Is there. I mean, obviously there's more to be released, there's more to come out. I mean, what can we expect next? I mean, is the Trump administration taking steps to make sure everything gets exposed? I mean, where do things change?
Stephen Walter [:I'd like to know what happened and why. Why was it Sergeant Vargas, Andrews permitted to open fire on the suspected bomber? That kind of thing.
Steve Palmer [:And the frustrating part is that we all jump to, like the worst conclusion. Right. You know, so it's a political decision they wanted to have. They wanted to be able to.
Stephen Walter [:Much more to it than. I don't know who said what to whom at the national level.
Norm Murdock [:But, yeah, the rules of engagement. Yeah, we would like to know who set those rules and why and what they were.
Stephen Walter [:Somebody behind the desk.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, yeah. And hopefully all that comes out. We can at least know, I think, the truth. I mean, whether anything happens, whether there's any discipline or. I don't really care about that so much because the truth tends to at least help you not repeat it the next day.
Stephen Walter [:Well, getting back to the roa, when I was in Vietnam with the Air Force, we had the policy where I had to yell halt in English, dung lai in Vietnamese, which is halt three times before I could do anything. That's plenty of time for.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I was also a bit of an amateur historian in terms of my interests. And I remember early on in the Vietnam era, there were rules of engagement where magazines or clips, if you will, were empty. They weren't even. They weren't even loaded with ammunition.
Stephen Walter [:I remember that in the bombing of the barracks in 1982, the century had no magazine.
Norm Murdock [:You're holding a gun with. Throw it at him, you know, like crazy, so. Well, why don't we turn to some news?
Stephen Walter [:Okay.
Norm Murdock [:I think again, people, we will have the information here to contact Sergeant Walter and also to contribute to.
Stephen Walter [:Corporal laneheart gets it all.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, yeah.
Stephen Walter [:I'm sure there are other agencies, but out of necessity, they take their cut.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. This is direct assistance for her medical situation, so. And other needs. I mean, I can only imagine.
Stephen Walter [:Well, I know parents had to widen the front door, widen the bathroom door, lower the shelves for food stuff. Things we don't even think about accessible.
Steve Palmer [:Well, that's just it. That's back. This idea, like from the individual's perspective, what is she going through and how. You're right. People don't even think about the cost of that. I mean, those are for a family that is just getting by or a middle class family or whatever. It's like those are huge things you have to do.
Stephen Walter [:Both parents work, as you might expect.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, yeah.
Stephen Walter [:There are two younger siblings. Gage is probably 20 and Casey is probably 15 by now. But still, it affects so many people.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Raising a family and then having to deal with that at the same time. I mean, the financial burden alone has got to be overwhelming, let alone the emotional struggles and just the ups and downs of all of that. So anyway, so we implore everybody to help out.
Stephen Walter [:Thank you.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, yeah. All right, Norm. News.
Norm Murdock [:Well, so much stuff is going on.
Steve Palmer [:That he's always got the news ready to go.
Stephen Walter [:That's the thing.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, it's so in just since the last show that we did. Just as an example of how quick things are changing with the change of politics in D.C. the Ford Motor Company built this several billion dollar city, they call it Blue Oval City in Tennessee. The purpose of which was to make EVs and they were going to take their F550s and F650s, their heaviest duty vehicles that Ford Motor Company makes, and throw away the diesel motors and make them henceforth all, all EV trucks. So you can imagine that the range you would get with you're hauling a horse trailer out in Montana or something, or a pile of rocks or a pallet of shingles, whatever it is, something super heavy and a long distance. And the Ford dealers, I talked to a couple of the dealers that are on Ford's advisory committee of 100 dealer representatives and they pleaded with Jim Farley, the CEO, not to do this. What? We can't sell EV heavy duty trucks?
Steve Palmer [:Well, once the subsidies disappear, and they will and they have, it's like they're worth nothing. Nobody wants them.
Norm Murdock [:Well, famously, of course, the head of Tesla, Elon Musk, interestingly, he denies this. But interestingly, the day that the big beautiful bill passed that took those subsidies away, he suddenly became an enemy of Donald Trump.
Steve Palmer [:The timing is notable.
Norm Murdock [:The timing is notable. So now what Ford did just this past week, they've done a 180. And Jim Farley, the CEO, who I don't know if he's long for the job, he's done a 180 and said we're back in diesels and gas cars.
Steve Palmer [:Well, look, they work. And you can't operate in what you think it should be. You have to operate in what it is.
Norm Murdock [:It's like the head of Cracker barrel. He spent $700 million prepping for all this change of logos. And now they announced yesterday we're back.
Steve Palmer [:To the, back to the old logo again.
Norm Murdock [:And you're just like, but at least.
Steve Palmer [:Look, I don't have any problem with mistakes, but it's how you respond to them. So at least they're reversing their field. And I can't even say that it was a dei. Who knows what the motivation of Cracker Barrel. I mean, I, I sensed that the product was slipping anyway. You know, like, I've passed up plenty of Cracker barrels in my last road trips and haven't gone there.
Norm Murdock [:Right. So if you're a shareholder.
Steve Palmer [:But you know, I saw you guys, but I don't know, she sort of sanitized it into this, I guess, barren looking place without the tradition.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:It wasn't a good move.
Norm Murdock [:Like that's going to bring young people in. Taking the candy out is the way you bring young people.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, it wasn't going to work. And I think the patrons or I think the. We just saw this as like, what are you doing?
Norm Murdock [:What are you doing?
Steve Palmer [:It's like some sort of personal insult. You don't like us, so you're going to change what we like and that's that. So at least she's reversed her field back to cars.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, Chrysler is now talking about their hot rod, that Challenger. Oh, we're going to put a gas motor back in that thing.
Steve Palmer [:Well, the charger they got rid of, Right. Is that the Challenger's done or both of them are done?
Norm Murdock [:Well, they came out with an electric Challenger. Right. And they're going to. And they, and it was going to be all electric and now they're retooling that to somehow stick a gas motor back in.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, well. And you know the market doesn't lie, right? The market likes what it likes and they weren't selling them.
Norm Murdock [:They weren't selling. So a couple of other things going on. I'd be interested, Stephen, in what you think of the machinations down there in Cincinnati. I'm sure you've kept track of the riot that happened where there was evidently a racial component of some kind. And it could have been just accidental that the people on one side versus the other were two different races. Or it could have been the reason that it started, I don't know.
Steve Palmer [:Or maybe both.
Norm Murdock [:Or maybe both started accidentally.
Stephen Walter [:Well, the Cincinnati police have arrested six of the people involved in that and maybe we'll get more specifics.
Norm Murdock [:And they've arrested a minor and charged the victim, the white man who they said slapped one of the black defendants. One of the guys being charged is, they say, somebody who laid hands on one of the black fellows.
Stephen Walter [:Let's see what happens.
Norm Murdock [:But he's been arrested and charged.
Steve Palmer [:The victim's been arrested and charged. Yes, he has been having defended many murder cases, many felonious assault cases, many simple assault cases. That's never happened in any case I've worked on where the victim is actually charged. So what you get, I mean, I'm sure when you were on the police force you get a just take a bar fight, the guy who gets the crap beat out, him and the other guy gets charged with felonious assault. The victim doesn't get charged. Right. Even if the fight started mutually, the victim typically doesn't get charged. So I don't know what's motivating it.
Steve Palmer [:I can offer some guesses, but I don't.
Norm Murdock [:And your guesses would be on target. So what had happened? Because this has been pulled politicized and there are, hey, there are people, African American people on both sides. So I don't want to make my next comment look like I'm saying it's a black perspective because it's not. There are people, there are people defending the victim and saying, you know, okay, a slap, you damn near killed the guy. You know, like it's too much. You, you know, a guy who slaps you or calls you the N word doesn't legally deserve to be beaten to within inch of his death. That's obvious. But yet there was a press conference, including by people on city council by so called black leaders who called for his arrest and for him to be charged.
Steve Palmer [:The victim.
Norm Murdock [:The victim. And then it happened.
Steve Palmer [:Let's take this in a different direction since we have a police. I'll call you an expert for sure. Where were the police officers when this is happening? And we talked about this off the air a little bit. It's like, it seems like the era of the community policing is sort of we're not seeing it as much as we used to maybe is the best way to say it. So if there's, you know, I remember going downtown at a festival here in Columbus and you'd have, we were talking about our mutual friend who used to ride horses and keep. Keep the peace. And I remember seeing him even at the most crowded of Ohio State football games. By the way, Ohio State's going to be Texas this weekend.
Steve Palmer [:But in that setting, they'd be down there on the horses sort of talking to people, you know, and not like Mean, and there were guys breaking the law with open containers, doing whatever. But the CPD officers were always like, hey, can we pet your horse?
Stephen Walter [:Jacket. Yeah, hide it. Put your jacket. Here's a quick story for my. It's April of 1982. I'm working the Near east side as a sergeant, 3 to 11 shift. They put out a strong arm robbery. And the suspect is described as male, Black, in his 20s.
Stephen Walter [:Well, that's most of the people out there. But I drive by this one gentleman, think, well, maybe sort of stop the car, get out, stop him, have him put his hands on the trunk for pat down. But I don't pat. I squeeze and I squeeze a revolver in his right pocket. So I drew. He's still cooperative. Call for a unit. He's still cooperative.
Stephen Walter [:They take him up to the jail bureau or the detective bureau. And I go up there later and say, you know, James, if you wanted to, you could have really hurt me out there.
Norm Murdock [:James was the person you arrested?
Stephen Walter [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Stephen Walter [:He says, I wouldn't hurt you, Sarge. He knew me or knew of me. Sarge is okay. Four years later, he murdered one of our officers.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Stephen Walter [:But I wouldn't hurt you, Sarge. And that's.
Steve Palmer [:That's what we're talking about.
Stephen Walter [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:You had a presence in the community.
Stephen Walter [:And they knew me as a person being fair, a faceless badge behind a windshield.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Acting like a authoritarian.
Stephen Walter [:Hell, I can't even act as an authoritarian in my own home.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:But you wonder if stuff like this, it just seems so preventable if there's police officers on the corners of these festivals. And maybe it's manpower, maybe it's. They don't want the police there. Maybe it's both.
Stephen Walter [:We are either 217 officers short from our recent here in Columbus. Yeah. Manning document. Or some people argue that with a city our size were probably short of 400.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, I think that's what Brian said. Cincinnati says that they're short too, that they're not staffed up well, 2, 300 short of their police force.
Stephen Walter [:Former chief asked me rhetorically, who wants the job.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, right.
Stephen Walter [:With a city attorney who wants to charge you criminally and a mayor who doesn't care. Now we've got this anti violence bureau with a staff that I'm sure has never ridden in a police car on a Friday and Saturday night to see where that begins. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Read reports or completely disregard this notion we're talking about. It's police. No, no, no. These guys are completely disregarding what we're talking about instead, it seems like they come at it from a narrative. All police are bad.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah, let's get rid of them.
Steve Palmer [:Let's get rid of them. And maybe it's the opposite, right? Maybe just being in the community, like your story, maybe just having guys on the corners so grandma can walk to church on Sundays without worrying about it. That helps the entire community and you become respected and then you don't have. And it prevents crime before it starts. And this is one of those scenarios where this could have been a simple assault and guys on it right away. Even in Columbus back in the 90s, going down to the bars, there was always police officers down there, maybe even special duty.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah, we had walking crews.
Steve Palmer [:Walking crews, yeah.
Stephen Walter [:Or the people were.
Steve Palmer [:We were always next to Kim's food cart.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Cause that's where the drunks would be and that's where stuff. But there would always be an officer right there. And if a scarfuffle ever happened, they'd be on it. Somebody might get charged with disorderly conduct, resisting, but nobody gets hurt. Nobody gets hurt that way.
Stephen Walter [:And if they're charged, they gave us no option. Usually it's leave now. We had a member of the OSU wrestling team get shot in the back. Oh yeah, just guns everywhere. Recently a 14 year old shot and killed a 16 year old.
Steve Palmer [:It's horrible. It's horrible. And look, this is coming from somebody who's been a criminal defense lawyer for 30 years. Right. And I get this question all the time. It's an interesting topic. Like, don't you, how can you possibly be friends with police officers or whatever. And I've always had a great mutual respect with good police officers.
Stephen Walter [:Good police officers.
Steve Palmer [:I said good ones because I butted heads with bad ones. And I like to think I've helped make bad ones better at times. And they make me a better lawyer at times. Good cops.
Norm Murdock [:God knows there's bad lawyers too.
Steve Palmer [:And the friend we were talking about, I had a case with him, we were coaching football together, Little league. And I just met him and working on a case. And I'm not gonna say what kind of case it was or what was going on, but whatever. And I just got done working on it. I show up for, you know, we were at the office whiteboarding it for trial and I show up, I was like, I think that's the detective on the case. But the guy had come friendly with coaching. So I got to cross examine my friend. And the point I'm saying is we did it with professionalism, respect.
Steve Palmer [:Neither of Us held back and it worked. It made the system better when we were both doing our jobs the way we're supposed to do our jobs. And I think now, without having good police out there, you don't have good police training, good police, and you don't have. If it's just numbers on the street, things are getting worse.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You know, to that end, guys, of course, a big story which we didn't really have time to cover last week was the D.C. augmentation from Ohio, where we sent Ohio National Guard Governor DeWine to D.C. to help reinforce federal presence there in the city. And for almost two weeks, there wasn't a murder in DC, which, if you factor that out, that would be 25. If that had continued now, I think yesterday there was a homicide, but for almost two weeks there wasn't a single murder. And if you factor that out, D.C. would have gone from like, I don't know, 120 murders a year to 25. So, like Steve likes to point out, there'd be no violations of crosswalks against traffic if you had a machine gun on every corner.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, but at the same time, there's a little. I mean, that's true, but there's also some truth to the idea that D.C. was understaffed and politically, the police there were not allowed to do their job. And they seemed to be welcoming the federalization in general. Not the, not the politicians, but the people, you know, wearing out shoe leather on the street.
Steve Palmer [:Look, if there's not constitutional violations going on, you know, so it's one thing for a police officer to be on the corner, it's another for just stop and frisk for no reason. Right. Those are. It doesn't have to be that. It can just be the presence. There is enough often.
Stephen Walter [:Right, but where does a Posse Comitatus Act, Paul, in all this?
Norm Murdock [:Well, DC's a unique creature.
Stephen Walter [:Oh, that's right. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, it's not a state dc.
Steve Palmer [:The federal government has some limited authority to police in dc. Now, if Trump is going to try to do what he says he wants to do, and I think that some of this is tongue in cheek. You never know. You know, he's just sometimes just goading people, but says he's going to do the same thing in Chicago, going to do the same thing in Baltimore, he's got no authority to do that. None. You can't just deploy the National Guard into cities.
Stephen Walter [:Right. But think of the cost. And think of the guards with having their lives turned upside down.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Again, from the individual perspective, I'M not.
Norm Murdock [:Prepared to file a brief on this, but was hearing some lawyers discuss what his authorities would be outside of D.C. so, DC, apparently, because of the way the Constitution has been interpreted up until the Home Rule Law was passed in 73, the federal government has pretty solid authority in D.C. that seems to be the gist most people are going. Now, there was this Insurrection act that the 9th Congress passed in 1807 that they say gives the president authority in things like, well, Hurricane Katrina, where President Bush deployed National Guard to maintain law and order in New Orleans eventually. So that same act could, in theory, Steve, I suppose, be used.
Steve Palmer [:You'd have to declare an emergency, you'd have to be a legit emergency, etc. I hate emergency power. I hate emergency power. Did I say that three times? I hate emergency power. Because we saw that. We saw what happens when government actors act under the guise of emergency power. During COVID but after. Anything can be an emergency power.
Norm Murdock [:No, I hear you. After the LA fires, remember, Trump sent National Guard to la, but that wasn't necessary for police.
Steve Palmer [:For any.
Norm Murdock [:And he brought him back out. And he brought him back out.
Steve Palmer [:Such things have to be done carefully.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:I would say at that point, I.
Stephen Walter [:Doubt if there's ever been a case of that Insurrection act that made it to the Supreme Court.
Steve Palmer [:Certainly not in modern times, Right? Certainly not in modern times. But another thing I wanted to talk about, since we're talking about this, and it's sort of a little bit. There's a bit of a segue. I'll find one. You talked about inciting violence down with the Cincinnati case.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, right.
Steve Palmer [:Which is an interesting segue to Texas versus Johnson. You have Trump also signing an executive order on its face saying we're gonna criminalize burning the flag. In Texas vs Johnson, I think was 1989 US Supreme Court case that says it's constitutionally protected conduct to burn a flag, but it's not constitutionally protected conduct to incite a riot or to incite violence. So when you couple the two, that's really. I think we should talk about what Trump's. What the order really does, whether it means anything in the first place, and how it fits against Texas versus Johnson. So what the order says is we're gonna go prosecute cases where people are burning flags and they're inciting violence as a result of. Doesn't create a law, it doesn't create a rule.
Steve Palmer [:Trump has no authority to create a.
Stephen Walter [:Law or a rule.
Steve Palmer [:The executive branch doesn't do that. Our Congress does That. And at the state level, our General assembly does that. So they write the laws. So Trump can't write his own criminal offense. That's not what he's done. What he's saying is, doj, we're gonna prosecute people who are burning the flag. And as a result of that, inciting.
Norm Murdock [:Violence on federal property.
Steve Palmer [:I think, well, you've got to trigger federal jurisdiction somehow.
Norm Murdock [:Somehow.
Steve Palmer [:And that could be on federal property. It could be in a State park or D.C. d.C. It could be something like that.
Norm Murdock [:He also said death penalty in D.C. for murders.
Steve Palmer [:Now, the other Texas versus Johnson, for those First Amendment scholars, the court says this is protected conduct. You're allowed to burn a flag. And in law school, we learned that as speech plus conduct. So these symbolic acts of expression are protected. And I'm gonna read Scalia's quote because I thought it was. So it's classic Scalia, who you would think would not want. It was a 5 to 4 decision.
Norm Murdock [:Well, most of the people that are Scalia, most of the people that are really whose opinions that I think are sober, are weighing in against the Trump executive order and saying, and these are conservatives, and they're saying, hey, First Amendment people have the right.
Steve Palmer [:Even when he was announcing it, he was saying, like, now we did put that in there, that inciting violence clause in there. He knows what he's doing.
Norm Murdock [:He knows what he's doing.
Steve Palmer [:He knows what he's doing. But Scalia's quoting Texas versus Johnson. Norm, I think you'll love it. If it were up to me, I would put in jail every sandal wearing, scruffy bearded weirdo who burns the American flag. But I am not the king.
Stephen Walter [:Exactly objective.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. So now I've heard some other conservative commentators disagree with Texas versus Johnson and that decision. I don't. I think.
Norm Murdock [:No, I agree with Scalia.
Steve Palmer [:And the idea would be that the flag is.
Norm Murdock [:Those are despicable people to burn the flag like that. Although as a Boy Scout, I was taught that when you properly dispose of.
Steve Palmer [:It, you burn it.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Stephen Walter [:Cut off the blue field, you no longer have a flag.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And we had a ceremony to do.
Steve Palmer [:That with retired folks. It's a very slippery slope. It's a sloppy slope outlawing bring the flag. But anyway, to the extent there's any confusion about it, Trump has no authority to make a law. He's not making a law. And the executive order only says charge people with inciting to violence or other related crimes if they're doing it while burning a flag.
Norm Murdock [:Right, right. It'll probably not hold.
Steve Palmer [:Nothing's gonna happen.
Norm Murdock [:In fact, I think 10 minutes after he issued the executive order, of course, there was a guy out in Dupont Circle or somewhere burning a flag.
Steve Palmer [:Right? Yeah. Well, I mean.
Stephen Walter [:Well, immediately to.
Norm Murdock [:Immediately to challenge it. And, hey, President Trump, here's a flag. Here's my lighter. And guess what?
Steve Palmer [:I'm doing it now. If you say burn the flag and let's go burn down the city at the same time and you incite people, well, that's a different story. Yeah, but it's a separate offense, right? Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And you do that on Lafayette park or somewhere that's a DC Property controlled by the federal government. Well, then maybe there's just enough of a nexus there to.
Steve Palmer [:And ironically, that's what they charge Trump with. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Exactly.
Stephen Walter [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Right. So anyway, what else you got, Norm, before we wrap it up?
Norm Murdock [:Well, isn't it also rather ironic, all of these mortgage fraud claims against people like Letitia James and Lisa Cook of the Fed, all of these people that were happy to charge Trump with mortgage fraud, which the New York Court of Appeals, which is their supreme court in the state of New York, just recently threw out the half a billion fine against Trump.
Steve Palmer [:As being excessive.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, as being excessive.
Steve Palmer [:They didn't throw out the conviction.
Norm Murdock [:No, no. Or the liability, but they threw out the fine, which. Okay, I'll take the liability, but no fine. So the point is that the same people in the glass houses, like Letitia James, who brought that case, and now Lisa Cook at the Fed, and they're saying, Chuck Schumer. Gosh. Who's the other one? There's Gavin Newsom. Apparently there's a list now, of course, growing list of Democrats that are alleged to have engaged in mortgage fraud to get better terms on their mortgage and mortgage fraud, and yet they went after Trump for this.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, look, here's what I've defended these cases for years. You fill out a form to go get a loan, and you put false information on that form. It's bank fraud or mortgage fraud, whatever fraud you want to call it.
Norm Murdock [:If it's a federally backed loan, now it's a federal crime.
Steve Palmer [:Almost. Well, any banking can be federal. So during the mortgage crisis, we had tons of those, hundreds of those. And what they're talking about is saying, my primary residence, is this the one I'm buying? But they also have this other one that they live in most of the time, and they're just sort of fudging the facts, because a first mortgage is. A mortgage on your primary residence is a better Deal. Than a second, than your vacation, than your vacation home. And the notion that everybody does it isn't good enough. It's still a crime.
Steve Palmer [:And that's what these. These people are just saying. Wow. Everybody's doing it. The irony is sort of thick.
Norm Murdock [:Right?
Steve Palmer [:You're accusing Trump of similar things. And in the Trump scenario, I think even his lenders were saying, look, we evaluated the properties, we had no problem with the valuation that you put down, and we loaned the money, and guess what? You paid us back.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So anyway, it was clearly they were targeting him.
Norm Murdock [:So he has fired this Lisa Cook from the Fed.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:It's a bad look, you know, because she doesn't have to be guilty of a crime. It's one of those where if you're a government official, even the appearance of impropriety is a bad look.
Steve Palmer [:It's a bad look. He shouldn't have done it. Not for. I wouldn't. No, not for that.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Steve Palmer [:Because it looks like he's targeting her because she's not doing what he wants, which is to lower interest rates. And she was a. Wasn't she an Obama or. She was a Biden appointee.
Stephen Walter [:So.
Steve Palmer [:Look, as I said, it's a bad look. I'm not saying damn authority to do it. I'm saying it's a bad look. He's the executive. I think he has full authority to fire people in the executive branch of government. But doing it in that context, what I would be doing on the other.
Norm Murdock [:Side is he appointed Jerome Powell and he wants to fire him. I mean, Trump appointed him.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, I get you.
Norm Murdock [:So I'm not so sure it's because of who appointed her.
Steve Palmer [:If I were.
Norm Murdock [:It's her policy.
Steve Palmer [:If she called my law firm, said, help. I don't do employment litigation, but I know what I would be looking for. All the people who work under Trump who did the same thing, who didn't get fired.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:That's what I'd be looking for. And you're gonna find more than her, right? Yeah, you're gonna find more. So then it looks like he's targeting her for some political purpose, as opposed to firing her for some falsification on a mortgage document.
Norm Murdock [:If, like you said, if there are other people who did the same thing she did.
Steve Palmer [:I suspect there are.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I suspect there are.
Norm Murdock [:Well, those cases apparently are not before the, you know, the grand jury, as is hers, so.
Steve Palmer [:Well, again, that's the question. Why is hers so.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Anyway. All right, well, shall we wrap it up?
Norm Murdock [:Sure.
Steve Palmer [:All right. But you got Some good and bad you want to talk about?
Norm Murdock [:Well, my good thing is the drop in DC Crime. My bad is I don't like the Trump executive order curtailing free speech. I know it's tied to violence. I think that's a clever tactic. But I just don't think that we needed to get involved in a flag burning discussion at this time. I wish that Trump, my wish for him and I had wishes for Obama and Biden. My wish for Trump is that rather than discussing some actress who's overweight or rather than discussing things like flag burning, I wish he would stick to. Okay, you're trying to solve the war between Ukraine and Russia.
Norm Murdock [:You're trying to solve the Hamas versus Israel thing. You're trying to help the economy. You're negotiating with China on tariffs. Those are the things that I want my president to really focus on. And I wish some of these cultural things that are just candy, you know, it's a sugar high kind of thing. I wish he would not do those things.
Steve Palmer [:It's politically.
Norm Murdock [:So that's my bad.
Steve Palmer [:It's politically foolish, I guess, or maybe foolish. It's just he's giving the other side.
Norm Murdock [:It's only so much oxygen in the air and he doesn't need to take it all up.
Steve Palmer [:Well, master sergeant, we always do a good and bad. You got any good and bad you want to do? You don't have to because I'm putting you on the spot. But if you got something good you want to say, some things that you.
Norm Murdock [:Think are good right now and some things that you think are bad, well.
Stephen Walter [:We'Re not getting service members killed.
Steve Palmer [:Well, that's good.
Stephen Walter [:That is a very good thing in terms of bad. The homicide in Columbus are going up.
Norm Murdock [:Are they really?
Stephen Walter [:Yeah. Now, when our mayor mentioned how the day had been going down, that is more of a tribute to the emergency squad and the emergency rooms who save people who would have died.
Steve Palmer [:So they're just a felonious assault.
Stephen Walter [:Exactly. Flooding assault rates are up, which is a great point.
Steve Palmer [:I always say this. If you want to get rid of crime, crime, you just redefine it. So look, if you, you just, you want to eliminate, you want to, you want your stats to show that there's fewer drunk drivers, well, then don't deploy task force for drinking and driving on the weekends.
Stephen Walter [:And as you know, statistics like lamp posts, they shed a little light, but they're nice to lean on.
Steve Palmer [:Yes, exactly right. Exactly right. So everybody says the crime went down during COVID while they're just, nobody was enforcing any crime during COVID So it didn't. It was whether it went down or not. We don't know. The acts probably were still going on. So anyway, good. We've got football.
Steve Palmer [:I love Ohio State football, folks. I love it. I love it. I love it.
Norm Murdock [:It's football, man. That's, that's.
Steve Palmer [:I hear you.
Norm Murdock [:The Kelsey brothers.
Stephen Walter [:Come on.
Steve Palmer [:I hear you.
Norm Murdock [:They're in the news, UC football.
Steve Palmer [:But we got Texas coming in. We pray that it's going to be safe for everybody and there's no problems, nobody gets hurt or whatever it is. But celebrate. Well, I hope they lose. Celebrate, enjoy the game. That's all the good stuff. The bad. I'm with you.
Steve Palmer [:The Trump stuff. I don't like that he's taken this step to grab 10% of intel. You and I can debate this later, but I don't like that. I just don't think the federal government ought to be in private business like that. I don't like his executive order, not because I think it really does anything, but it's a bad look, he doesn't have to do it, sort of given the other side fodder that he doesn't need to. And I don't like the idea that he is at least saber rattling about sending out federal troops, so to speak, or National Guard troops or federal authorities to the states or the local cities to enforce criminal law. That's a power delegated to the states. It should stay with the states.
Steve Palmer [:It's not to say that the states that he's talking about and the cities he's talking about are doing a great job. They're not.
Norm Murdock [:They're not.
Steve Palmer [:But it's not his problem to solve. And it just gives the other side a little bit of ammunition to run down this path of calling him a dictator or an authoritarian or whatever. And you know, as you well know, Norm, I tend to attack a little more libertarian and I think the federal government ought to stay out of that stuff. So that's that. Well, look, common sense Ohio, let's pull out your. I want to tout this again if. Thank you very much, Master Sergeant, for coming.
Stephen Walter [:My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Steve Palmer [:Always appreciate your insight. There's a GoFundMe. We're going to put a link up on our website. It is for Corporal Kelsey Lainhart. She was seriously wounded by the homicide bomber at the Kabul Airport on August 26, 2021. Just a couple of days ago was the anniversary. So please consider sending donations. We're going to get the information up there.
Steve Palmer [:Keep doing the good work. Hopefully it's paying off.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Come back.
Stephen Walter [:Thank you. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:You're always welcome.
Steve Palmer [:Common sense coming at you right from the middle each and every week.
