Gender and diversity issues are very important but sometimes we might not be quite sure how to talk to people in a way which helps them feel included, heard and understood.

Today I am joined by G Sabini-Roberts, a speaker and activist in issues surrounding diversity and inclusion.

She offers us her top tips for how we can strive to do it well enough.

G and I hope you find the episode useful.

The Highlights:

• 00:28: Welcome & exclusive competition!
• 02:50: Intro to today’s topic and our guest
• 04:09: becoming an expert and spokesperson for LGBTQ issues
• 05:42: reducing barriers for people around gender
• 07:00: The importance of pronouns
• 09:00: Gender privilege
• 10:45: Marianne’s first learning point
• 11:19: The importance of prefixes and titles
• 12:11: A high profile battle for what’s right
• 15:25: The importance of not just complying
• 16:04: The NHS and titles and systems
• 18:42: People’s names matter!
• 20:07: Expanding the language we use in services
• 23:16: Patient choice and preference matters
• 24:00: Including trans people in services
• 26:05: The Happy Families Progress Edition
• Playing games with service users for engagement
• 30:12: How we define families
• 32:40: The importance of staying curious
• 32:22: G’s last learning point
• 34:48: An exclusive competition!
• 36:00: Thanks & Close

Links:

 Connect with G Sabini-Roberts: https://gsabiniroberts.com/ https://www.instagram.com/rainbowfamilycircus/

 Grab your copy of the new book: The Aspiring Psychologist Collective: https://amzn.to/3CP2N97

 Get your Supervision Shaping Tool now: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/supervision

 Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her, including the upcoming Aspiring Psychologist Book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her Link tree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent

To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0

To join my free Facebook group and discuss your thoughts on this episode and more: https://www.facebook.com/groups/aspiringpsychologistcommunity

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Hashtags:

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Episode 55

Jingle Guy

Hi, welcome along to the aspiring psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, and I am a qualified clinical psychologist, thank you so much for listening. So when we are working in mental health, there can feel like a lot of different issues that we need to be aware of and it can feel like a very quick paced, quick moving beast really to get our heads around, and how best to understand the broad variety of people that we work with, and the unique needs that might well be different our needs personally and professionally and one of the recent, very important debates and themes that have been raised in the media, but also in mental health has been that of gender and diversity and I'm delighted to be able to welcome my guest today so that we can all think about how to understand more about these important issues, and how we might be able to make changes in the way that we do things in our personal and professional practice. To better be inclusive and to help other people know how open to conversations we are in this area, and how we strive to help people feel understood and validated and heard and seen. Please do stick around to the end because you will be able to learn about an exclusive competition that I'm running to win. Very exciting prizes. But you'll need to take action quick because the entry will close a week today, it will close at midnight on Monday, the second of January 2023. You dive in, listen to this episode to find out how you can enter the competition, which is linked to the content of today's podcast. So with no further ado, let me introduce you to our wonderful guest for today. Hope you find it so useful. I'll see you on the other side with more information about that competition. Hi, welcome along to today's episode of the aspiring psychologists podcast. I am thrilled to be introducing you to G Sabini-Roberts. Hi, G.

Hi.

So there's a number of reasons I wanted to talk to you in today's episode. Because you're just a really interesting character to get to know. So we met on socials, and I've been following your work for a while and you're really inspiring for a number of reasons. By trade, your brand specialists are doing branding and logos and things like that. Is that right?

That is right. Yeah, the original business, 11 years old now. Yeah, is graphic design with a very definite brand. specialism. Yeah.

Yeah, but you definitely have a more modern twist on the way you work, and the topics that you talk about and that's really what I want to talk with you and to our audience about today. So originally, I wanted to talk to you for a little bit help really little bit of guidance for how we can be really inclusive in modern mental health services, for thinking about diversity and gender, and all stuff along those lines. What's your best advice for how we can do things better in modern mental health services G?

That's a huge question. I think based on the conversation, you're right about you and I've already had, what we really want to talk about is confidence and comfort in being able to talk about these things. So just in terms of background, I'm queer, I'm non binary, trans, I use pronouns and I have been queer my whole life and so as well as the branding business in the last few years, I've been doing a lot more diversity inclusion work, which as you will find when you speak to most people who are LGBTQ, we end up inadvertently delivering awareness, training information, being the go to voice because we're the only way that somebody knows that, for example, we all do that. Anyway, that's something we do for free every day of the week. However, a few years ago. We started offering that myself, and a couple of partners started offering that on a professional basis as well. So I have that slant to things, too. But I'm very much an LGBTQ specialist within that. So really, I think the biggest question most people seems to be, how do I get it right? If I'm faced with a Trans person, as an example? How do I speak with them refer to their past, talk to them in a way that enables them to access whatever it is you're trying to access in a way that includes them and doesn't put up barriers? Is that right? Is that where do you think that kind of thing is, what will be useful for people here?

Absolutely. Yes, please.

Okay. So the first aspect of this is to recognize that when it comes to gender identity, particularly gender identity s an identity. It's how you feel in your head, your gender is between your ears, not between your legs, is a brilliant quote, that's a Charles Bono's magical quote, but it's true. So when we're talking from a psychological point of view, it is very much an identity that is earned and it does not necessarily correlate in any way, shape, or form, with somebody's physiology, biology, anatomy, hormones, chromosomes, all of the things that go into making your biological sex and it's important to acknowledge that because somebody may walk into a room, and you look at them, and you clock them as a particular gender, and you do not know that that's the case until you've actually asked them if that's how they identify and this is why it's sometimes really easily to inadvertently put our foot in it, because we make assumptions and that's the first thing is to recognize that we live in a massively gendered society. We have gendered everything, from jobs, to emotions to fashion, all of it. We have assumptions of we see this, we assume male, we see that we assume female and that's the thing that we need to unpackaged if we are going to make sure that at any moment, when we meet somebody new or we encounter somebody new, we are aware that they may not identify in the way we're going to assume that they will, because we've been conditioned by the world that we live in. That's the first thing. So anytime, you might say, oh, yes, you see that that lady down the end of the corridor, that's the person immediately, you do that note, that person may be wearing a dress, but with identifies a lady with identify as a lady, even if they identified as a woman. It's all about recognizing the language we use can be very weighted, and be unconscious as a starting point and we can work around that.

So there's been a lot of conversations over recent years around pronouns, and people sharing their pronouns and asking for pronouns and that is a really significant thing. I have encountered people who have said, I see other people showing their pronouns, but I'm a man, I'm clearly man, people perceive me as a man, and therefore, I don't need to show them because it's obvious and if we can reflect that back, we can say, well, if you are somebody who is regularly perceived by the world around you by the people you encounter every day in the street, as the gender that you know yourself to be, then you have gender privilege and what we are asking people to do by having their pronouns to that email signatures, or the ID tags of her video calls and things like that is we are recognizing that not all people identify as the gender you may assume them to be when you see them on screen, or encounter them in a in whatever setting you're in. We don't know about adding our own, we help to normalize the process of including that as part of how we all generally identify. First off, it means that you're always going to be gendered correctly, because your pronouns are right there. But it also means that two things one, you'll encounter people who say, why have you put your pronouns on there, you've got a beard, and a deep voice, you're clearly a man to actually not, not all people who maybe have those features are men and I'm making it clear that I am and I'm also subtly telling the world, telling any person who is gender diverse, that may encounter me that I'm safe. I get it.

I've thought about this stuff and I recognize that as somebody who has gender privilege, I can start to normalize this process of asking for pronouns making, identifying one's own pronouns, part of normal, everyday culture. It takes the pressure off gender diversity for people to always be the people who are saying, excuse me, can I just correct you there? Which, every time you have to do that, we've got that the negative impact that that has on somebody's mental well Lean is significant, especially when you're doing it 30 times a day. So we start to help to take that pressure by being proactive in that kind of thing. So that's the first point to acknowledge is we don't know and that's specifically gender and we may want to talk about diversity and inclusion in a more broad way. But that is one of the most significant questions I get asked what all this pronoun stuff is about and that is, what it's about.

That's really interesting and I know, you know, I think on LinkedIn, because it offers you, you know, to choose your pronouns, I have done that. But like you said, you know what, I don't have a beard. I do have long hair, and often wear dresses and so I wouldn't necessarily have thought, for example, on this to put Dr. Marianne Trent, her that, that would be my pronouns. But I will do, I will work out how to change this on stream yard and I will do, because, you know, I think you're right, just because I'm feeling like, I know that I am a she and her, it does gives the sign that I'm happy to have that conversation and see that as an important conversation to have. So that's absolutely my first learning point from talking with you. So thank you for that G.

No worries. It's fascinating stuff. It really is and just say I know plenty of non-binary people or gender diverse people who to look at they have long hair, but it's sometimes what addresses it. I don't know, until you said that, then I didn't know and then we've got a side issue here, when it comes to titles. You have a non-gender specific title, which has pros and cons. I have one minus mx max and that although it has been a legal title and recognized for the last 20 years, it isn't on every form.

That's awesome, very interesting conversation to have. Because I know you had quite a high profile battle with your mortgage provider when you moved recently, didn't you? Could you tell us a bit about that, because that was fascinating?

It was a little bit crazy. But yes, my legal name is G C Sabini-Roberts that is my complete legal name, I changed it by deed poll , I have all the documentation. My bank accounts are in that name and my driving licenses in that name that is my legal name and just as an aside, anybody can change their name by deed poll to anything at any time and that is entirely legal. So I have a legal name and it's what I go by. At the start of this year, my wife and I wanted to get a mortgage to buy the house that we now live in and the broker that we were working with came back and said, right, we've got mortgages all agreed it's great. Here it is and they have put Mrs. as my title. So of course, we went back and said, well, actually, that's not correct. Can you change it, please? This is the legal name and this was with one of the UK's biggest banking groups. In fact, the biggest I think, and basically they didn't have my title on their system. They couldn't figure out how to make it work to where we can't do that. At which point we have a problem. Because we also have money laundering laws that state if you are taking out a financial agreement, such as a mortgage, it has to be in your legal name. Otherwise, you're breaking the law. So we have two things going on here.

That is firstly, we can't our systems computer says no, essentially, our systems can't accommodate that. Because yes, it's been around for 20 years, but we haven't put it into our systems yet and then you've got the book. We can't give you a different name. They did try to give me different names. They suggested Mrs. they then suggested G C Sabini-Roberts, well, but for some reason they could make that work and they couldn't make Mux look and eventually, after weeks of wrangling, which of course, we were in the process of trying to buy a house, it's not exactly a low tea time. So it was quite a stressful situation full stop. Eventually, they did find a workaround with their systems. The media got that hold of this because at one point I reached out and I said, this is maddening and really frustrating. How come you can't use my legal name? I cannot be the first mux person who has tried to get a mortgage with this massive bank. It can't be the case.

Well done G, because actually, it is that I'm not backing down. This is correct. This is right and I believe this needs to happen and it should it should have been available. Whereas lots of people will just comply, won't they? Oh, I might have taken but like you said, that’s not my legal name. I am not, I am not the Marianne Trent, you know, legally I'm doctor or Mrs. So those would be the options, I would have gone and if Dr. hadn't been available, I would have gone with Mrs. But actually, I should have the choice to be able to say doctor if I want to. But not all systems are geared up for that.

No and that's the same everywhere, even within the NHS. I only registered with my legal name in some but not all aspects of my healthcare, simply because some systems can handle it now and some can't, which is a challenge and this is a challenge when we're looking at health care, in a broader sense, because we have got different issues at play here and when we start looking at health care settings, we're talking specifically about psychology, but it's the same as if somebody is an inpatient for whatever reason and they are in a ward with a group of people who are meant to be the same gender Well, if I was a trans man, and I changed my, I actually went through and changed my name on my medical records and changed my marker for gender marker from a female to male, then I would be invited for standard prostate screenings, I would not be invited for cervical screening. For example, if I went into hospital, a trans man who goes through a full transition is a man and will be perceived as a man by people in the street, he may have facial hair he will have a deep voice is is body fat distribution in his body over a period of years of taking testosterone, will you will recognize him as a man. But actually that man could still get cervical cancer, for example and if they do, and they're taken into hospital, what ward you put them in? Because if you put them in a gynecology ward, the five other people in that order women looking at this bearded chap in the bed off on the opposite side of the room, they're not going to feel comfortable, that man is not going to feel comfortable, we actually have a challenge here to how we make trans inclusive and gender diverse, inclusive practices function. I don't have an answer, necessarily. But there are very big questions on how we work this, how do we find a way that meets everybody's needs?

Absolutely and I think we're going to be really stirring the pot now, rightly so, in mental health services up and down the country, as we all then go to our keynote software, or whatever software we're using, and just looking at what pronouns are available, and rattling some cages if the there's not more inclusive options available. So yeah, really important to get our little renegade activists out into services.

Yeah, it's partly, our pronouns and titles are different. I think that's an important thing to recognize is getting someone's name right matters. That's an important part of treating them as a human being. So having someone's name right, is that but actually having a note on their record about pronouns is really useful. Because there's a lot of talking about people in the third person in a medical setting, you will talk to other professionals who are working with that person and even if that person isn't in the room, you should be using the pronouns that are right for that person. Is there a place on the records where we can say, these are the pronouns that we use for this individual?

Not to my knowledge, not when I was when the NHS, but it might have changed. I left in April 2021. So it might have changed since then. But to my knowledge, there wasn't at that time, but I would hope there will be if there isn't already, but yeah, I think if, you know, I spend a lot of time talking with aspiring psychologists and the way that I would say this is I would say, when I am talking to a client, I will say when I'm not with you, for example, when I'm talking in supervision, I will make sure that I always use your preferred that pronoun of day and then just so we're making those processes more transparent, but also respectful.

Yep, very much. Yes and language goes further than that, doesn't it? Yeah, there will be people who haven't encountered the argument that's come out in the last few years, about expanding the language that we use in the services we offer. The general public as an example, we've got the the breastfeeding and chest feeding conversation and the fact that some trusts in the last five or so years have started to release information to their service users that talks about breastfeeding and chest feeding, or talks about the gestational parents, as a way of making sure that people who are maybe non binary or trans men who are going through pregnancy and having children are included in the services and are meant to feel safe and included and heard and respected within those services and we've had a lot of backlash from that, as well and that is quite a challenging one, because that at question, that argument is happening all the way up to the very top levels of decision making within all kinds of trusts and organizations and educational establishments, those conversations going on and I think this is where it's, it's appropriate to talk about this gender critical movement, there is a section of the population section of all these organizations that are very against that evolution into more inclusive language, based on the idea that we're actually in some way, excluding women, or removing rights from women, by taking these inclusive steps and I understand where those words come from. Because people have said that I have encountered many people who say, they've told us we can't use the word breastfeeding anymore. We can't talk about ourselves as women.

We can't talk about pregnant women, we have to talk about pregnant people. I've heard all of those things. What's really interesting is that they said, they said that we can't. Which means I always get to go back and say, who said that? Oh, they did, who say who's actually said that I'm Trans person, I haven't said that. If you're a woman, I will stand right next to you and defend your right to be identified as a woman till I drop dead, because that matters. But who has said that you can't use the word woman, you can't use the words breastfeeding, you can't use it for a pregnant woman. Nobody has actually said that. Those arguments been put forward by a very small but very committed anti Trans movement have also sometimes referred to as the gender critical movement, who ultimately are pitching to different marginalized groups against each other or women versus trans people. Whilst that infighting is going on, use the right language don't use the right language, someone up there is doing very well on the fact that they're getting away with not actually delivering brilliantly to both groups of people and the argument is focused elsewhere.

But it's about offering choice to the patient or the client, isn't it? So I identify as a woman, and I think of these as my breasts, and I use them to breastfeed my child and if someone tried to support me in breastfeeding, my children had been talking about it as chest feeding, I would say, well, I identify as a woman, and these are my breasts. So I'm happy to call this breastfeeding. But it's about knowing that that whatever I want to call them, or the process is okay, and encouraged by whoever I'm speaking with.

Yeah, and I think that is the point. There is a fear that rights are being taken away. Language is being taken away, identities are being taken away and that's not the case we are simply adding. So you won't find literature that talks about chest feeding only, you will find literature that talks about breastfeeding and chest feeding, you won't find literature that only talks about the gestational parents, they will reference all aspects of being gestational patient or parent, because everybody needs to be included in that rhetoric. It's like the way the way I sort of reflect on it is imagine we have leaflets for our services and then we recognize that those leaflets are no use to our blind and visually impaired patients because they can't see them. So we produce a braille version. We don't then stop producing the regular printed version, and only make the Braille one of available.

We simply add, we add so that we can include more people and that's what we're doing by broadening the use of language when it comes to gender is we are recognizing that what we've got works brilliantly for the majority. Let's keep that but let's recognize it's not quite working well enough and add stuff in to fill the gap, that's what we're doing. When we're saying, let's include different language in our conversations here, we're simply make, we're recognizing that it doesn't fit everybody, and we want to make it fit everybody, people aren't going to access a service if they see the headline, and it doesn't include them and that's where the problems lie, because we know that trans people have, or one of the groups that are least accessing services, because they're afraid, because they've had too many experiences where they have been excluded, where they have been challenged in ways that are incredibly damaging to them.

I totally agree and I know that you saw another niche in the market recently for thinking about diversity and inclusion, and having very important conversations, whilst also seeing yourself and other people being represented in just a standard thing, like playing a card game and that's another reason I wanted to talk to you G, could you tell us a little bit about your exciting new project, please?

Absolutely. We had an accident where we created a new version of The Happy Families card game. So I don't know if you've played the traditional happy families card game.

I have I have as a as a child, not for a long time.

Yeah, well, it's essentially like Go Fish, you have to collect a fact, all the members of a particular group and then once you've collected all of them, you've got those ones and the person who collects the most by the end of the game is the winner. It's a fairly simple card game that's been played well, since 1851. In fact, when it was first created.

The baker family and stuff like that.

Yeah, the banker family, the butcher family. So the original one had all these families that they're all white. They're all a husband, a wife, a son, and a daughter, Mr. Mrs. Miss and master, and the surname is the father's profession. So it's based very much on these traditional notions of what families looked like back in the 1850s and we know that families don't look like that anymore. Occasionally they do. But families are way, way more diverse than that and because of the business that I have, where I'm working with people with their branding, and creating resources for them to market themselves and, and create products, one of the things I wanted to make available to people that were asking me, Can you help me make a deck of cards, could be prompt cards, or all kinds of different types of cards that people want to use within their businesses to help deliver what they do.

So I started looking into that, and I found somebody brilliant LGBTQ printer up in Yorkshire. Little queer own print company and we figured out a way to print cards, but you know what, we will do a test and I had a look around and realize that there wasn't a version of Happy Families that was anything like representation of what modern families look like and we ourselves a, it, we're a blended family work, we're family. We have non binary family members, we you know, within our extended family, we're certainly not all white. There's artwork, we're a diverse bunch hats are probably most families and so we created a new version of it that is full of different combinations of groups of people who call themselves families, we've got single parent families, we've got blended families, we've got family without children, we've got grandparents, we've got multi-generational stuff going on, we've got pets in there, we just mixed it up and we did this for fun, we've got 100 boxes printed thinking over the next year, we'll sell them to our friends and our friends, friends, and that'll be lovely and it's kind of blown up.

So we're now on our third big print run and we're sorting out going to one of the big games expos next year, and we have accidentally created inclusive games production comes in an entirely unexpected way, which is a lovely, but it's it wasn't something that we found.

Really lovely, but really important and well done well done to you. There it is happy families. But you know, I reached out to you, partly because of this because when I was working in cam services, which stands for children, adolescent mental health services, we often you know, play games with children and young people, whilst we're kind of, you know, getting to know each other but also because sometimes some people find it really difficult to talk one on one and so you're kind of busy yourself and be doing things but it's a really nice opportunity, actually this card game to do something that feels inclusive and respectful, but also helps many of the people who might be in our services to feel heard and understood and you know, whether it's because of issues with gender and diversity or pronouns or you know, ability or you know whether their family are, you know, their birth family? It provokes lots of really important conversations that might well, like I said, be partly part of the reasons why we're actually seeing them in the service to begin with.

Yeah, very much. So I think this was one of the things or the biggest piece of feedback we've had, from people who've been, we don't define the family, we simply say his group of people, and for the purposes of this game, they are a family. We don't know how many of those characters are Trans or how many of them speak English or how many of them have hidden disabilities, we simply don't know and that's the point. If we don't know, if the family that has three adults in it is a blended family. Are they a polyandrous family? Are they a group of friends who are collectively raising a child, we don't know. We don't need to know and that's the whole point is families can look like all kinds of things. They don't need to tick any particular boxes in order to be validly a family and it comes down to representation it particularly in young people, if you don't see yourself represented in the world around you, then you always will start to question why, what's wrong with me? Why am I not there? Why am I so different? Little things like this just help to alleviate that a bit and just show that all families go, all families are valid, and all families are okay and what we found has been brilliant is the way that people have jumped on this as a way to start having those conversations. So hey, let's play a game. But you know, by the end of the game, you will be having a conversation that's along the lines of so. So do you think that person is in a relationship with that person or do you think these families might live next to each other? And how would that work and get to start as easy conversations, open conversations without putting anyone on the spot?

Important conversations to have. Show us the pack again, up to the camera so people know what they're looking for G?

It's the moment it's happy, it's the business we've set up is the rainbow Family Circus. So it's rainbow Family Circus, that code at UK and you'll find all the information about the game and be able to find it on there. We've got you know, single dad family, a masculine presenting person. We have mixed race families, we've got a two dad family, we've got two mum family. We've got an adult only family or maybe one of them a teenager or we don't know, maybe their siblings? We don't know. We don't need to know.

It stay curious, isn't it and you know, give people permission to be who they are, and help facilitate conversations, you know, in an open nonjudgmental space. So thank you so much for your time. I feel like I could have spoken to you all day about so many different topics. But yeah, I will make sure that I put details about you and your social handles in the show notes and of course, tag you in this podcast as well and the wonderful, the wonderful, Happy Families game. So thank you so much for your time, and for so richly and generously spreading your knowledge with our audience.

You're very welcome. Can I leave you with one thing?

Please do.

One of the things we said right at the start of this conversation was recognizing that sometimes people have a fear of getting things wrong and I just want to tell them that that's okay. You will get things wrong. I get things wrong, we all get things wrong. If you inadvertently Miss gender somebody or use the incorrect name or title, there's a really easy answer. You just say, oh, I'm sorry. I meant the right one, and you move on. That's the really key thing, acknowledge it, and move on. That's all you need to do. You will get it wrong. I mis-gendered myself, sometimes. It's okay to get it wrong, as long as you put it right.

Yeah, absolutely and I think there's been a very high profile case in the palace recently of someone not backing down and hop dressing and, you know, actually really offending somebody about their about their heritage and I think there can be a lot to be said, but just saying, you know, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I got it all wrong and I'm really sorry. But yeah, this is just, you know, give people permission to be human, and to be who they are, and know that we can't get everything right all the time. But if we do it with the best of intentions, hopefully, and apologize. When we do get it wrong. We'll do more good than harm.

We will indeed.

Thank you so much for your time, G.

Thank you. It's been a real pleasure.

Wow, wasn't that amazing? G is incredible. I certainly learned a lot there. So will you be changing your socials to say what your preferred gender pronouns are? Is that something you could consider doing? I absolutely am going to be doing that in future. So I will be changing my overlay to tweak it to say she and her. So yeah, thank you for that important conversation G. Hope you found that useful, please do come along and discuss it on the aspiring psychologists community free Facebook page. But as promised, there is an exclusive competition, I have bought two copies of The Happy Families progress edition, that same shaken card games that we discussed in the episode, I'm going to give both of those away, one over on LinkedIn, and one over on Instagram. So do come and connect with me on both of those platforms. I am Dr. Marianne Trent in both places, and the competition will run until midnight on Monday, the second of January 2023. So yeah, come along. Take part. I didn't quite know what the details of the competition are going to be yet. But I will, by the time you listen to this.

So you've got a week, but don't wait, do it today. Because I will post a copy if you're the winner on Instagram, or you're the winner on LinkedIn. I'll post those to you in the UK. So yeah, G kindly said that she was happy for me to run the competition. So I bought those. I bought those along with my own version. So I do actually have three. But I'm going to keep one and play those with my children. But yeah, if you would like to have a copy for your children and families service, or for your own private practice, working with children and young people will just to play with your family, then please do swing over to LinkedIn or Instagram or both you can enter on both platforms. Yeah, and I will be delighted to post those to you if you are the winner will get my lucky prize will wheeling around again. So yeah, thank you so much for listening, hope you find it useful and yeah, good luck if you do decide to enter. Thanks for listening and I will look forward to catching up with you for our next episode that lands with you from 6AM on Monday. Thanks for being part of my world and I'll speak to you very soon take care.

Jingle Guy