In this episode of the Future Proof HR Podcast, Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary, sits down with Sabrina Sdao, Chief Growth Officer at Thursday Strategy and former corporate strategist at Deloitte, to discuss how organizations can thrive in the age of AI through adaptability and human-centered growth.

With over a decade of experience advising companies on transformation, Sabrina shares how adaptability has become the single most important skill for every worker. From the C-suite to the front line. She explores how AI can free people from mundane tasks, allowing them to focus on creativity, problem-solving, and building more meaningful employee experiences.

Sabrina also breaks down why HR must play a central role in guiding AI adoption, how to build a culture of adaptability from the top down, and what it takes to prepare Gen Z and early-career workers for an AI-driven future without losing essential human skills.

Topics Discussed:

• Why adaptability is the meta-skill for the future of work
• How HR can lead AI adoption through example and experimentation
• Building a culture that rewards learning, curiosity, and agility
• The balance between human skills and technical fluency
• The risks of skipping foundational learning in the AI era
• Making work more human through personalization and purpose
• How HR can stay strategic amid economic volatility

Additional Resources:

• Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
• Future Proof HR Community
• Connect with Sabrina Sdao on LinkedIn

Make work more human to me, is to do what we now have this massive advantage

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to do, which is to remove parts of our job

that are mundane, that are administrative,

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that are what people call paper pushing.

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To remove that from our daily task list

because we are free due to automation and

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the intelligence that AI is bringing us.

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That means you can leverage

people's innate capabilities

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to the highest and best use.

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They keep telling us that it's all over.

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For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

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be prepared to be decimated.

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We reject that message.

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The future of HR won't be handed to us.

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Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

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Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

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what they've learned, and what's next.

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We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Thomas: Hello and welcome to the Future

Proof HR podcast, where we explore how

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forward-thinking HR leaders are

preparing for disruption and

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redefining what it means to lead

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people in a changing world.

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I'm your host,

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Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary.

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Today's guest is Sabrina

Sdao, Chief Growth Officer

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at Thursday Strategy.

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Prior to Thursday, Sabrina

spent over a decade at Deloitte

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as a corporate strategist.

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Sabrina now helps organizations navigate

workplace transformation with a focus on

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human-centric growth.

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She believes AI and automation

are powerful tools, not threats,

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if we rethink how we upskill

people and design for creativity

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and not just efficiency.

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Sabrina, welcome to the podcast.

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Sabrina: Thanks, Thomas.

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So let's jump right into

the skills question.

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So what do you think?

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What are the skills that are going

to be most important for workers,

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especially given the pace of change

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in AI and in the workplace overall?

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Yeah, I think skills is a hot

word right now when it comes to

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workforce strategy.

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And if I had to name what I think the

single most important skill is for

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all workers to have, whether you're

the CEO or the CHRO or the HRBP

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or the person on the front line,

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it's adaptability.

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I think everyone should

be asking themselves,

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how can I continue to

learn and grow and adapt

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given this wave of change

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and the impact that AI

is going to have on work.

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I think people are scared of AI,

scared that it's going to take over

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their jobs, et cetera.

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I think the way that I see it is that

AI has this immense capability to take

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on mundane tasks with

greater accuracy and speed.

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And what that can mean

for people is that it can

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really unleash their human potential.

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Even more so now if

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they're being bogged down by things

that could truly be better done

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potentially through automation.

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And this skill of adaptability isn't new.

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I think, as humans, technology

has changed so much.

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I think

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about the advent of the

industrial revolution or the

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introduction of the internet.

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We adapted in

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all of those different instances.

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In both cases, some things changed about

existing jobs and new jobs were created.

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I think this will

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be much the same.

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And there's really unique ways

that companies are showing

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adaptability and also engaging

their workers to be adaptable.

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One cool example is with Ikea.

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What they did was they

used bots in their contact

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center to create efficiencies

and streamline their operations,

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which freed up capacity for

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people that were previously

answering phones.

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And what they did was they

upskilled those people to

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be interior designers and then

transition them into a revenue-driving

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role in the organization

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where they were actually advising clients

on how to design their homes and which

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furniture to buy from the IKEA selection.

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And I cite that example because in

order to do that, you have to have

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people who are willing to

learn and a company that's

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willing to change and evolve.

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And when

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those two things come together, I

think that people can inherently

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be more creative and human.

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Thomas: Before we dive

into that a little bit

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deeper, I think I want to just

acknowledge you're answering this

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other deeper question within this,

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which is that there's this

emotion of fear that is pretty

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prevalent at this particular moment

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with the changes being

more rapid and being

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more of seen as a threat.

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And this is an interesting story

because there's reskilling and you're

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right, it's both corporate vision as

well as employee willingness to grow

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and adapt and learn in this case.

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What do you think that means

for the opportunities for many

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other companies out there as

they're thinking about reskilling?

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Sabrina: I think what that means is there

has to be a culture around adaptability.

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Cultures are formed through behaviors.

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Behaviors occur because they are incented.

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And you need to create that

culture, of adaptability.

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And that starts from the top

of your organization with

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leaders taking on using AI.

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It starts with your entry-level

employees coming in with that

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natural hunger and zeal for

learning, and them being adaptable.

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I think, this podcast is

about future-proofing HR.

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And so I'd be remiss if I didn't talk

about what I think this means for HR.

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And I think HR can be a big lever

for this change in an organization.

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Not only can they use these

AI tools to improve efficiency

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and remove some of the mundane

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work that they do.

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So that an HRBP, for example, has

the capacity to really elevate their

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game and be that true partner

and advisor to a business group

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head or head of technology.

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But it also means that by doing so, HR

can truly steward this change across the

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organization and can build in adaptability

and more specifically adaption of

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AI, which I think is what I mean by

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adaptability here.

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Thomas: The current example of the

meta skill that is, I think what

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you're saying, which is adaptability.

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And you're exhibiting that in

the workforce or in this example,

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as an HRBP by, for example,

leveraging AI in your toolkit.

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So yeah, tell me more about

how HR can adapt in this world.

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Sabrina: Yeah.

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I think that HR by, again,

by adapting these tools

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and demonstrating the case for

the efficiency that it creates,

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it can free up their capacity

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to get deeper into the businesses

and the functions so that they can

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help inform the use cases for these

tools across the organization.

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Because I think what's happening

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right now is that HR is sort of

being included in the conversation,

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but after the business or the

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function has taken off with AI and

its own use cases and applications.

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And while that may seem

natural, I think there is

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an opportunity for them to get

in front of it a little bit more

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or to work alongside the business

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or technology while they

are adopting these tools.

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The way that functions

and business think about

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these tools is: "Let's create

operational efficiency"

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and they do that.

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But with AI, more than ever, we're

tapping into deep work disruption.

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And the sooner HR is a part

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of that conversation, the

more likely the business and

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functions are to realize the full

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utility of AI.

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And what I mean by that is

imagine working more closely with

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your HR business partner on task

disruption, given applications of

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certain AI tools, and then them

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being able to take the lens of how

do we redesign this job, given all

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these tasks that have been disrupted.

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And when we redesign 10,

20, 30 jobs, and then

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we look at how many of those jobs

are dispersed across the entire

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workforce in that business or function.

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How does that better inform strategic

workforce planning for the business?

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And then what is

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a case that needs to be made for

the group CFO, for example, on

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how to shift costs associated with

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headcount and account for

the new costs associated with

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technology and what's that offset.

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So there's a really great opportunity

by HR demonstrating using these

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tools, establishing or freeing up

some of their capacity and really

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digging deep into the business

and functions to say: "We've done

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this" or "We know what this can do

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to your jobs.

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And we have all the tools to redesign

your workforce to better meet your needs

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today, given this tech disruption."

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Thomas: You're using the word

"disruption" and saying it's deeper and

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distinct from prior kind of changes.

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So let me just cook up an example.

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Like maybe in yesteryear, there

might be a CFO in their finance org.

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They are decided that they're

going to start using one piece

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of software for accounting

versus another piece of software.

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Maybe that HRBP who is working

with that finance function probably

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doesn't need to go too deep into the

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differences in one

software versus another.

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But in this case, when

you're going not just to

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that perfunctory level, you're

actually going down to, think

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you said the task is being

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disrupted as well, right?

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The tasks itself would be changing.

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And so in this case, are

you arguing that HRBP

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needs to understand that business process

even more deeply than my previous example,

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where you went from one accounting

software to another to add value?

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Sabrina: I think that if we take a

step back and just think about the

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difference in the technologies, like,

AI is mimicking human intelligence.

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And I think

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what prior tools or big technology

systems are doing is they're

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like more so organizing information

and making it more accessible.

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And that's the big shift.

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And it's not to say that in those

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periods of transformation where you're

implementing a big finance piece of

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software, it didn't change the work.

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I think it did change the work.

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But I think what we're seeing now is

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some tasks may be taken on entirely by AI.

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And I do think that's

fundamentally a bit more disruptive

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than what we've seen with prior tools.

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So that's why I think there's

this deeper opportunity now

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for HR to be more involved in how

AI is being applied to work so that

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they can rapidly be redesigning

jobs and we can start to achieve

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those efficiencies that

the CEOs are expecting.

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And we know there's a bit of a wait and

see happening right now, from executive

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teams on just how effective AI is

going to be to improve efficiencies

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in organizations and free up capacity.

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So I'm optimistic.

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I think HR can play a key role

there if they're not already.

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And what we see sometimes is because

this is functionally or business-led,

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for example, with one organization I

worked with, they prioritize building

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sandboxes around using AI tools, the

AI coding tools, along with a chat

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GPT tool like their own version.

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They prioritized it within

the technology group.

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It was led by technology.

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And the HRBP kind of

came along for the ride.

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I just think that if we put them more

at the center, then we can realize,

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codify what this task disruption is

and realize the impact perhaps sooner.

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Thomas: So what is hindering,

because you said it's not universal,

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but that's a great example there.

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But what do you think is hindering

HR from being part of that or

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informing the AI transformation that's

happening at so many workplaces.

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Sabrina: I think it's really natural

for business leaders within the

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organization to want to test and

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experiment with these tools and

for them to view it as a way to

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improve customer service, let's say.

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Their remit, their function.

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Pardon me?

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Thomas: To improve their remit.

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That's their core remit as a head of

customer success or whatever function.

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Sabrina: 100%.

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And naturally the train

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can start to leave the station

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if representatives from HR aren't

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a part of that initial

thinking because of the way

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business leaders are incented.

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And I think that naturally business

leaders will understand their

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use cases to a degree of depth

that an advisor doesn't always.

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And so I put the HRBP into this

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advisor role.

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And that's what's hindered them in

the past, just the nature of the

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way business decision-making occurs.

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I've seen it

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working with organizations.

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I worked with an organization to help

them better enable their frontline

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sales team and HR wasn't at the table.

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And that wasn't even an

AI application so much

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as it was an assessment

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of what skills,

characteristics, and behaviors

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make your people most successful

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and what do they need to enable them.

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And it's just sometimes in

a very large organization,

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things like that can happen.

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All that being said,

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I do think that there's a great

opportunity them to be more involved.

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Thomas: So I guess it is

organization to organization,

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but those stories that you

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mentioned are not uncommon.

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And it makes me wonder, out loud

is maybe is that just and right?

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Is the role for

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HR- maybe that is the role, right?

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You need to actually be in the

background and kind of focus on the core

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outcomes that HR typically does anyway.

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In this case, job descriptions and

career laddering and these kind

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of the recruiting process and just

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how you would evolve all of

those in responding to what

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the business leader needs.

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You're just like the execution

arm of driving that strategy.

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Is that potentially a more natural

home or in terms of being effective

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as a partner organization?

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Sabrina: So I think having things be

business-led makes a ton of sense.

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I think more at a higher

level, I wonder if there's

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just a degree of governance that

needs to be put in place to ensure

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that - what if the decision is made

in one business to eliminate all jobs?

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I'm making a dramatic case, right?

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And HR is not at the table.

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And the implications of that haven't

been evaluated from the talent

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strategy and the people side of

the business, or something's been

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overlooked because in establishing a

pipeline of future employees, because

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a business decision's been made

about a belief regarding the degree

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to which AI can actually

take on internships or

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entry-level jobs, for example.

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There are some big swings that I

think business leaders can make.

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And a lot of organizations

haven't quite established what

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is that governance structure

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around some of these choices.

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And so the business must

be at the table, of course.

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I think there's probably a bit

of ethics here as well— on what

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is it that we are replacing

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human work with and have we

put the right safeguards in

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place to actually have humans

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still be in the loop when using

some of these tools, which

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we know the tools just aren't

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good enough yet.

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So that's still an important part of this.

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And what does that mean for the

structure of your workforce?

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How are we thinking about

future-proofing the business

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given human capacity in the future?

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And I do think that HR

does help play that role.

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Maybe in some cases, what

we're seeing is so incremental

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that people are questioning why

the business can't just go ahead—

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and the business can and they will.

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I just think there's value

in HR being part of it.

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And we could be taking much bigger swings.

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And if no one else is at the table to call

out the challenges that we could face,

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in the future by doing so,

there just could be a cost

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to having to reverse some of

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those decisions or you're not

going to achieve the broader buy-in

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from the organization if they're

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made in a silo.

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Thomas: Specifically around the reskilling

example, for example, that you had

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about IKEA, I would imagine if you're

going to bring along and try to

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reskill a giant department into newer

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growing division, that is a

massive change management and

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learning and development exercise

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that takes significant coordination.

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Not to mention you don't want

this dislocation in productivity

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that could stretch quarters

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if you're executing a big shift in

approach from people to technology without

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the right mindset and skillset, which not

uniquely, but I think HR leaders typically

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will bring to the table in spades.

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But yeah, I love your doomsday thinking.

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You got to think about

these scenarios, like things

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that can happen when you just

go, all systems go and just

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take big swings, as you say.

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Have you seen any of these, any

examples of big reversals in

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course from companies after going

in one direction, whether it was

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about this particular sub problem

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of involving HR or not, but just

having to go back and forth.

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For me, certainly like return to office

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is the whole thing that comes to mind

where companies have gone back and forth.

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For me, certainly, like return to office

is the whole thing that comes to mind

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where companies have gone back and forth

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in different ways, different

policies, but maybe AI adoption

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and strategy might be one.

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There will definitely be stories, of case

studies in the future, in this era maybe,

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where companies did not navigate it

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as well as they could have.

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Sabrina: Yeah, I think so.

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I also think that the technology

isn't quite there yet.

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The human intelligence is

not quite replicated yet.

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So I do think what we're seeing that's

interesting is with early career workers.

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interesting is with early career workers.

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And I have some questions around this.

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We know that early career workers

have joined the workforce, call

344

it, they've been in the workforce

between one to five years.

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And there was one study

done on this population in a

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professional services firm.

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And what they found was that

these workers were using AI.

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They feel as though it's necessary.

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It's helping them free

up some of their time.

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They believe it frees them

up to do higher value work.

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And that it's ultimately going

to help advance their career.

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And so there's a good news story there.

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And these early career

workers are, they're Gen Z.

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They're digitally native.

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They grew up with the internet.

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They're digitally savvy.

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The flip side of this though is that

they're a population of individuals

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that will not have the same foundational

skills as maybe you and I did

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going coming into the workforce.

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And there's a lot that I learned by

sitting in a meeting and listening

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to— not just what people said

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that you can read in a Gemini

note taker— but to see how people

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interacted with one another.

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To understand how conflict was

revolved or how decisions were

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actually made and note taking

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is a skill beyond just writing

things down, but there is this

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perceived degree of learning

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around human interaction in the

workplace and how things actually

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get done that I think happens.

370

And some of that might be getting

lost if we don't have some of those

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more junior people in the room

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and if we have Gemini

taking notes, for example.

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There's also the fundamentals There's

also the fundamentals of data analysis.

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What does it mean to pull data into a

table and draw conclusions on your own?

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And what kind of brainpower

do you use to do that?

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And what

377

sharp skills are you honing?

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And

379

all that leads to experience.

380

You made a mistake on an analysis in

381

your second year at your first

job, and you'll never forget it.

382

And it was great learning.

383

I think of writing in the same way.

384

Can you structure a strong argument?

385

And what does that

386

mean for your ability to be

able to communicate that?

387

And that is a very human

388

skill to be able to communicate ideas.

389

People often learn that through writing.

390

And imagine we have this population of

people in their early careers who aren't

391

necessarily getting those opportunities.

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Instead, they're skipping those

foundational skills as some of

393

those tasks are being done by AI.

394

And we're still expecting that

someone has to review that work.

395

And if you have these early career

workers, are you expecting that

396

they're going to be the final review

397

on a piece of content that's been

produced by a generative AI tool

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that could be hallucinating because

the technology is not as good yet

399

and the person that's

reviewing it at first pass

400

doesn't have that skill

and experience yet.

401

And so we're still

relying on senior people,

402

but will those skills ever

be developed in that cohort

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if they don't practice?

404

I'm not negative on us using these tools.

405

I'm bullish on it.

406

If you're not using them, you're behind.

407

But are we really thinking about

408

how we grow and develop some of those

core skills and early career workers?

409

And if we don't, then how do they

gain that experience otherwise?

410

I think it's an open question

that hasn't been solved for yet.

411

And if they're relying what's

produced in the AI tools to inform

412

their experience, then we're

413

creating this vicious circle too.

414

So I don't think the

intelligence is there yet.

415

Yeah, you're not ready for it yet.

416

You're not ready for it to fully

take over and replace humanity.

417

But this discussion reminds me of

this concept that every technology

418

brings its own disease to humanity.

419

Once we realized that we could get

energy out of coal, pretty soon we

420

had co-workers with bad lungs, right?

421

In the social media era, we've

had teenage depression rates and

422

addiction rates on phones go up.

423

But then eventually, it takes us

a little bit of time to figure

424

it out, recalibrate a society

425

and get safety tools in place.

426

We're starting with phones.

427

Let's not bring them into

elementary or middle schools.

428

Society converges on some solutions.

429

But I think what you're talking about

with this particular generation, they

430

might be the generation that gets hit

with the diseases of this particular

431

stage of this technology as it's maturing.

432

But hopefully, with both the

education system and also how we

433

do development within companies,

434

once they do come in, I think,

which is your point, we'll figure

435

out ways to fill those gaps so

that they are actually productive.

436

But you could also flip it

arguably and say that these workers

437

are coming in, having internet

438

native generation.

439

There's folks are going to

be native to using tools.

440

They don't google stuff.

441

They're Chat GPT or Gemini

things and getting to some real

442

quick insights with a particular

443

workflow or way of doing things that's

natural and faster and maybe has a

444

different type of productivity that

the rest of us can learn from as well.

445

Yeah.

446

I think there's so much good here.

447

I want to touch on the disease part

because I think there is one danger

448

that we've, there's probably many, but

we saw one recently and I think people

449

using chat GPT or generative AI

tools for mental health support is

450

definitely a danger in this generation.

451

I think

452

that's a big

453

watch out for employers too, right?

454

People are using these tools

perhaps for personal reasons.

455

And there is there's that

we need to think about.

456

But on the flip side,

there's such a benefit

457

to having people in their early

careers use these tools and I think

458

you're right like they're wired to

do that and grew up with technology.

459

I see even my kids— my four-year-old

asked for his Yoto player this morning.

460

That was the first thing he asked for.

461

It's a little electronic story reader you

put cards in and it reads you a story.

462

And of course, he still loves when we read

463

him stories.

464

But it's this little electronic

that he carries around with him.

465

And it's like his version of tech.

466

I didn't have that.

467

And that's going to become

more advanced as time goes on.

468

And what I do think this generation

does have the opportunity to

469

do, it's not all doom and gloom

470

for them.

471

They could vibe code anything.

472

It's second nature.

473

The job market isn't

great for them right now.

474

We know that for many factors,

there's volatility in the economy.

475

AI has gotten much better at coding.

476

Voting, for example, there's that really

famous article in the New York Times

477

this month about how people graduating

from computer and data science degrees

478

said they're struggling to find jobs.

479

This generation has so much capability and

so much native experience with technology,

480

yet when we've told them that they should

be focusing on that and on those skills,

481

now they're being shut down from these

six-figure jobs that they were promised.

482

And we're seeing higher unemployment

rates amongst computer science

483

and computer engineering majors.

484

They're double that of biology

and art history majors.

485

And I want to pause because I

think we've put so much emphasis

486

on some of these technical skills.

487

And realistically, the faster

that the AI is able to mimic human

488

intelligence, the less relevant

those skills are going to be.

489

I had a conversation

with someone recently.

490

They run a software engineering

outsourcing firm, and they have big

491

questions around what is the future of

492

that profession.

493

And if AI can generate code,

and if the code's pretty

494

good, and gets to that point,

495

and no one really needs to

review it, and it doesn't matter

496

how well it's truly written,

497

if that craft has become something

that can be done just as well,

498

if not better from automation,

499

have we wiped out an entire profession?

500

I think there's a mini

step in between right now,

501

which is that software engineers

are using AI coding tools and

502

it's augmenting their work.

503

And that's also a skill that people

in computer science and data science,

504

like undergraduate college programs,

they're not learning that in school.

505

So they're having trouble

getting jobs because their AI

506

is getting a little bit better.

507

The job market's a little bit weak.

508

It's slowing down in at

least Canada and the US.

509

And there are some key skills that

weren't part of their education

510

that employers are looking for,

511

which is using some of these tools.

512

And while I think this generation is

very well equipped to use technology,

513

there's a bit of a hiccup that's

happening for some of the folks

514

in this generation that have

focused so heavily on tech skills.

515

If they haven't also focused on

some of those more human skills

516

that are becoming important.

517

So like in the age of AI, can

you ask an effective question?

518

Can that translates well

into prompting, for example?

519

A human or an LLM?

520

Both.

521

Both.

522

Are we raising a generation that's really

strong in critical thinking that can

523

discern when Gen AI is producing something

that is incorrect, that's a hallucination?

524

Are we developing skills related

to empathy so that we can be better

525

human-centered designers and create better

526

experiences.

527

Because in theory, if AI is

taking on all these mundane

528

tasks, we should have more time

529

for improved experiences.

530

And I think people's expectation of

experiences is so high because of all the

531

data that's collected on us as consumers.

532

And I could go on, but there's

so many human skills that

533

are so important that I just

534

wonder if in this generation, like we

might just see a bit of a hiccup and

535

a bit of catch up, maybe.

536

If the emphasis has been so heavily placed

on technical skills that I don't know that

537

all people have taken that perspective.

538

I think overall, it's good that the

Gen Z knows how to use this technology

539

and it can enable them in some ways.

540

But we can't forget the human side of

ourselves and what that means to be

541

good workers and good people in society.

542

This has been a fantastic

conversation so far.

543

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

544

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

545

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

546

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

547

can all thrive in the age of ai.

548

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

549

community.

550

Now back to the show.

551

Thomas: Yeah, it's hard to separate

out, at least for the moment.

552

In a couple of years from now, when

we're looking back at it, it'll make

553

more sense, like how much of the current

state with the job market, especially

554

for entry-level workers, how much of

that is driven by the broader economy

555

where there is uncertainty and a

556

general pausing and maybe a lot

of companies, relatively speaking,

557

overhiring in a low interest rate

environment in the previous years

558

and just holding steady versus how

much productivity is being gained

559

using AI tools, which makes your mid

560

and senior level career workers more

productive and or take the carrying

561

water tasks that we all had as we

first get into the workforce, those

562

being the roles or the tasks that

are most quickly replaced by AI.

563

But it's a little bit hard to

tell from my vantage point.

564

But that's all, I think, a

preamble to, I think, your point

565

about where this is all headed.

566

However it all shakes out with this

hiccup, as you say, you're telling me

567

that you think work needs to be more

human, if anything, going forward.

568

What do you mean by that exactly?

569

And how is work not human?

570

Sabrina: I think work is

human, it can be more human.

571

I want to answer that.

572

But I want to address what you

mentioned about volatility in the

573

economy, because I want to make

sure that I've been clear there.

574

What we're experiencing in the job

market right now is very multifaceted.

575

I zeroed in on computer science

and computer science graduates,

576

for example, because I think

577

it's a fascinating data

point and Gen Z, in general.

578

But I think broadly, we're seeing

a lot of volatility in the economy.

579

We know that the unemployment rate

has slowly climbed in North America.

580

And I center myself on that just because

that's a market I know better than others.

581

So I can say that confidently

and that there's two things

582

that are happening right now.

583

One is that there's labor

hoarding that's happening.

584

So employers,

585

again, in a low interest rate environment,

they did hire a lot more people and

586

they know from previous experience

the cost associated with downsizing.

587

And then when the economy turns

again and the pendulum will swing,

588

we know that's the economic cycle,

that they'll need to hire quickly.

589

So we know people have learned from

that so they're labor hoarding.

590

And on the other side of

things, people are job hugging.

591

So people don't want to leave their

jobs because they're worried about

592

the volatility in the economy.

593

I think you're right.

594

I cite those two kind of examples on

the supply and demand side, because

595

I think it's a complicated concept.

596

And I don't want to simplify it to say

that, the reason why entry-level workers

597

are having challenges finding jobs

with computer science degrees is not

598

an absence of that kind

of broader picture.

599

It's all connected.

600

To make work more human, to me, is to do

what we now have this massive advantage

601

to do, which is to remove parts of our job

that are mundane, that are administrative,

602

that are what people call paper pushing,

to remove that from our daily task list

603

because we are free due to automation and

the intelligence that AI is bringing us.

604

That means you can leverage

people's innate capabilities

605

to the highest and best use.

606

It means that employers need to

decide what they're going to do with

607

that freed up capacity.

608

But to me, there's two different ways

different ways and they can both converge.

609

One is inspiring people to

innovate for the organization.

610

And the IKEA example is one way

that they did that, like to reapply

611

capacity, upskill people, and they

can do something that's inherently

612

more human, which is providing

613

good design advice versus maybe

tech support or information on

614

an IKEA return that a client

could engage with differently.

615

I think that's like upskilling people.

616

That's giving them growth and

development in their career.

617

It's also driving a new stream

of revenue for your business.

618

So you can foster, make the workplace more

human by giving people a bit more purpose

619

and meaning in their work by doing

things that are less mundane and

620

fundamentally more challenging, require

621

critical thinking and creativity.

622

I think that another way that

you can make work more human

623

is you can actually leverage

624

the data that we know about people

to make their actual experience as

625

an individual, no matter what they're

doing, way more tailored to them.

626

We have a really high bar

627

on the experiences that we engage in.

628

Apple, Spotify, Google,

they know us so well.

629

Spotify is creating playlists for

me based on all my prior behaviors.

630

What if your workplace actually

631

designed your ideal workday based

on what you've told the system your

632

priorities are and helps you better design

633

your day so that you can maximize your

time so that you can then spend time

634

on things that are important to you.

635

Maybe you want to do something

for yourself in the evening.

636

You want to see a friend or you don't want

to cancel plans for the third time or you

637

want to pick up your kid from school.

638

And you inform your HR information

system about your personal needs

639

and your professional needs.

640

And they help steer you based on what

they know your goals are and the data that

641

you put into the system.

642

And that data can be your calendar data.

643

It could be your email traffic.

644

It could be the data that you've

put into your HRIS about your

645

skills, your capabilities, the

career path you want to be on.

646

And that could be combined with whatever

professional or personal assessments

647

the business has taken the initiative

to take and inform their leaders on.

648

And there's this huge opportunity to make

work feel so custom to the individual.

649

And when we see the pendulum sling

650

back, when we see the economy

improve, and when we see the job

651

market improve, and when it becomes

652

an employee market versus an

employer's market, some of these

653

things are going to make the difference

if employers get ahead of it.

654

I think that's strategic HR to

actually get ahead of the shift

655

we will see in the market.

656

Things will change.

657

And I think employers will

once again have the power

658

and our employees will have the power

659

and how do you actually

create the circumstance

660

upon which you are competing

for top human talent?

661

We won't all be replaced,

662

but some of our mundane tasks will be.

663

That's for sure.

664

Thomas: I love that vision for the future.

665

So then when you're advising your clients

or just in general, as you're talking

666

to executives, leaders, CHROs who are

coming to you with the latest problems to

667

solve these days, what are you hearing?

668

What is top of mind?

669

Is it top of mind to make work more human?

670

Or what are the problems that executive

teams are struggling with in this moment?

671

Sabrina: I think that the economy has been

a big topic for executive teams and how

672

to safeguard against the unforeseen and

the volatility that we've experienced.

673

I think that's definitely what's

keeping executives up at night and doing

674

whatever they can within their control

to sustain and grow their businesses.

675

We're seeing bankruptcies happen.

676

Companies are getting liquidated.

677

They're not meeting

their debt obligations.

678

I think things like that due to the

volatility in the economy are truly

679

what's keeping top executives up at night.

680

And I think that what that means is

they're looking for ways to improve

681

efficiencies in the business.

682

AI is one way to achieve efficiencies.

683

It also requires an investment,

not just in technology, but also in

684

compliance and meeting regulatory

requirements to safeguard data and

685

It requires the people change, the

learning, the incentives for adoption,

686

the behavior change on a daily basis,

not just the three things you do this

687

year to get better at using this tool.

688

It's like, how are you using it every day?

689

And then it's improving processes.

690

So to actually maximize where in processes

can you create shortcuts or streamline

691

because you're using AI and automation.

692

So that's a macro factor

that's impacting businesses.

693

When I talk about talent

strategy, in the way that I just

694

have about how you future proof

695

and get ready for the pendulum to

swing, to me, there should always

696

be someone in the organization

697

or group of people that are thinking

about that and not losing sight

698

of it, even amidst volatility.

699

I think that we live in a volatile world.

700

I'm not sure that's going to change.

701

I just think that's been combined with

some other factors that are leading

702

to slow growth in certain industries.

703

And the geopolitical climate

has also impacted that as well.

704

I don't think it means that you

stop thinking strategically.

705

I think that as soon as you do that,

you are at risk of being mediocre.

706

And that's never advice

that I would give anyone.

707

Thomas: There's always the next headline.

708

And the negative headlines will

get you more clicks and views if

709

you're on the media side.

710

But you can't always be reactive,

you need to be strategic, right as an

711

organization to invest the appropriate

kind of way, but you're right to call out

712

there's, there's real pain out there for

713

some organizations and really trying to

sort through what the future looks like.

714

So speaking specifically to the HR

function, what do you think if you had

715

any parting thoughts for an HR function

leader to help navigate volatility.

716

Any closing thoughts for such a

leader who is trying to figure

717

out exactly how to engage

718

with the executive team and also

their team in these conversations

719

about reskilling, workforce

planning and process shifting?

720

Sabrina: I think that HR often isn't

the first to get access to some

721

of these tools and technologies.

722

And if I'm an HR leader, a way to stay

ahead is to actually demonstrate that

723

they're using these AI tools and they're

leveraging them to create efficiencies

724

and creating cases for why they actually

work and how work can be disrupted.

725

And I think that's one way that HR can

continue to stay relevant and provide

726

great advice to the business and

continue to demonstrate how to upskill

727

because they're upskilling, how to use

the tools to create capacity because

728

they're creating capacity, and how to

729

to reapply that capacity to generate

greater value for the business

730

because they're actually doing it.

731

So I think they have to walk

the walk, talk the talk, be

732

using automation to do things

733

like improve tier one employee support,

let's say, or to craft job canvases.

734

So that's one way.

735

I think HR can do that.

736

The other is keeping one foot in

the now and one always in the future

737

and not taking for granted whatever

the position it is that you hold in

738

the market today, because someone can

always compete with you for top talent.

739

And if you wake up believing

that your position could always

740

be shaken, what is it that you

741

can do to keep your finger on the

pulse of what employees really need?

742

I'd be thinking of more specifically,

what is your employee value proposition?

743

And have you been refining that?

744

Are you keeping up with it?

745

Or have we been stalled because

we're focused on other priorities?

746

And we know that employee

value propositions, first

747

and foremost, there's so

748

many generations in the workforce.

749

They have very needs.

750

And Gen Z has very specific needs that are

751

so different than the retiring

workforce, but they're all important.

752

And are you keeping pay

753

at pace?

754

That's the baseline.

755

Cost of living has risen.

756

Have you been keeping

up with cost of living?

757

What benchmarks are you using?

758

I think if you get that,

that's foundational.

759

And there's all sorts

of things I'd say on the

760

growth side of the equation and the

perk side of the equation when it

761

comes to employee value propositions.

762

But on the growth side, do people

feel like, Gen Z wants to feel they

763

have agency, that they have influence

in the work that they're doing.

764

They want to learn.

765

They want to get feedback.

766

I was chatting with someone recently

about how they're using Gemini to gauge

767

what their manager's feedback might say.

768

So prior feedback from a manager is being

put into GPT combined with feedback from,

769

let's say, a therapist is put into GPT.

770

And then you put it in your most

recent document you've created.

771

And you say: "Act like you're my

manager and that you're giving

772

me feedback on this document."

773

And they do it as like a first pass as

a way developing their career, right?

774

They want real-time feedback.

775

I use that as an example of

how to use tech tools to do it.

776

But I think there's lots of other ways.

777

There's employee programs for

acknowledgement and training your

778

leaders to be proactive

about sharing feedback.

779

They want to have opportunities

to express a breadth of skills.

780

So give them those opportunities

to work on different teams,

781

to try different projects.

782

They want variety in their work

and they want the workspace to

783

be a place they want to go to.

784

Atlassian is a great example of this.

785

They've made a workplace that people

go to only intentionally because

786

they have a completely distributed

workforce, but they've designed it with

787

this mentality that it's like a hotel.

788

It's meant to be this destination.

789

And so translate that into whatever

that means for your employee value

790

proposition within the capacity

that you have in your organization.

791

How can you make the workplace a

space that people want to go to?

792

Emulates more co-working

than cubicles, for example.

793

And on the perk side, sabbaticals.

794

People want to take more time

off, not just to build a family,

795

but to do other things, to grow

as an individual, to travel,

796

to have new experiences.

797

And then how do you use paid

time off and paid leave?

798

Give people the flexibility to use

that time when and how they decide

799

to do it versus at specific times.

800

And so I think that's how HR can

continue to not just help solve for

801

what's happening today, but continue

to be strategic and keep their

802

finger on the pulse of what like the

future workforce is going to need.

803

Because I don't think that future

workforce that all of us are going

804

away just because of automation.

805

I just think that our jobs are

going to change and there's going

806

to be new jobs for us to do.

807

Thomas: Thanks for reminding us all

that HR professionals know there's

808

a myriad of levers that you have to

pull, but it's in good times and bad.

809

And you need to make sure you're

adjusting the pace based on what's

810

happening with the business.

811

But there's so many

levers, as you mentioned.

812

And if you want to stay relevant,

despite all the volatility,

813

it's important to think about all

of those for a given organization.

814

Let me ask you about just about Thursday.

815

And you seem to have your pulse

on a lot of the trends and

816

what's impacting the workforce.

817

Could you just tell us a little

bit about the work that you do

818

and also how people might be able

to get in touch or follow along?

819

Sabrina: Yeah, sure.

820

So Thursday Strategy is an insights

to innovation firm focused on getting

821

deep on human qualitative insights.

822

So what is it that people

do, say, think and feel?

823

And how does that inform

product development?

824

How does that inform employee experience?

825

How does that inform your brand,

as well as quantitatively?

826

What does the general population think

about your product, your solution?

827

What are the trends we're seeing in

workforce and the general population?

828

And what are those

829

insights that can be

brought to your business?

830

That is what we do.

831

We help our clients make confident and

informed decisions on their strategies,

832

whether they be workforce or product

or marketing to improve their brand.

833

And we work with clients across the world.

834

And we're really excited to

continue on this path of building

835

better brands for our clients.

836

And you can get

837

in touch by emailing me at

sabrina@thursdaystrategy.com.

838

Thomas: Awesome.

839

Thank you for this great

conversation, Sabrina.

840

So we've covered a lot of ground

841

about the overall macroeconomic trends

842

as well as AI specifically,

843

both for the workforce, newer

generations, HR specifically.

844

And yeah, I'm left with your thoughts

845

about how it's really important

to make and build on work being

846

and feeling more human for more

847

people all the time.

848

And it's important to build for

beyond the latest curve of volatility,

849

and not to be too reactive and

think about all the levers that

850

you have as a leadership group

and certainly in the HR function.

851

And you bring so many great examples that

we can all learn from and take inspiration

852

from both in your work and just things

that you're seeing out there in the

853

research that will guide all of us as

we think about how we can future-proof

854

our organizations and our HR functions.

855

So once

856

again, thank you, Sabrina.

857

And for everyone out there is following

along, good luck to you as you

858

continue to future-proof your own

organizations and hope you took something

859

away from this one, just like I did.

860

And I'll see you on the next one.

861

Bye now.

862

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

863

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sure you leave us a five star

864

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865

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866

See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age on AI.