Shownotes
If you’re paying attention to the business of college sports today, it’s hard not to be overwhelmed by all the so called experts telling you they have the answers to what’s going to happen next. In this attention economy, loud and outrageous voices often win the day. It’s exhausting.
When you talk to Kevin White, though, it’s an opportunity to break through all that noise and hear from someone who has almost always been in “the room where it happened”.
White’s career in college sports is legendary, to put it mildly. The long time Athletic Director shaped college sports programs at stops including Tulane, Arizona State, Notre Dame, and (ultimately) Duke University, where he spent 13 years guiding the Blue Devils.
In his characteristic straightforward style, White provides insights about the state of college athletics and the lessons he’s learned along the way, many of which can be found in his recently published book, “The Good Sport”. We go into his career, his evolved opinion on NIL, the role of the NCAA in the future of college sports, and why he thinks now more than ever is the time to lean in on DEI in college sports. We’ll also find out how his thumbs are feeling after writing “The Good Sport” entirely on his iPhone.
ABOUT THIS PODCAST
The Sports Business Conversations podcast is a production of ADC Partners, a sports marketing agency that specializes in creating, managing, and evaluating effective partnerships between brands and sports. All rights reserved.
YOUR HOST
Dave Almy brings over 30 years of sports marketing and sports business experience to his role as host of the "1-on-1: Sports Business Conversations" podcast. Dave is the co-Founder of ADC Partners.
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Transcripts
Kevin, you began your athletics leadership at loris college a division three school located in iowa i think it was in the mid 80s and can you talk about to get started that that initial role that you had in college athletics and taking the reins of a program like that for the first time what are your core memories of being an athletic director for the first time you know dave as i reflect back and i've done a lot of that with the with the good sport i'm thinking about my journey my career
::know dave as i reflect back and i've done a lot of that with the with the good sport i'm thinking about my journey my career I was a track and field coach largely, and I coached a little high school football and wrestling as well in the 70s. And then I find myself moving from basically collegiate track and field to Loras College Catholic Institution in Dubuque, Iowa, actually at the diocesan school in 1982.
::All right.
::And I was perhaps one of the youngest people on the staff. How old were you at that time?
::How old were you at that time?
::31. Okay.
::Okay. You were young.
::Without any real, I think, experience in administration, at Southeast Missouri State, as a track coach, I had some assignment responsibilities in development and home contest management and marketing and some other things. But I really was not an athletics administrator. And on day one at Loras, I became one and I became the leader in all the responsibilities. that came with that. And for me, that was an eye -opening experience. Oh, yeah. And I relied heavily on an association called NACDA, National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics. And I jumped into that organization out of absolute necessity. Okay, what am I supposed to be doing with this? What am I doing?
::this? What am I doing?
::It was a long way from stopwatches and batons.
::But following Loras, I mean, so you obviously had some initial success there. And then you went on to lead some of the most consequential and prominent athletic programs in the country. Maine, Tulane, Arizona State, Notre Dame, and ultimately Duke University. And I'm wondering, like, when you think back on Loras,
::what were the foundational skills that you developed there that continued to apply to all those other... institutions as you rose through the ranks of college athletics? What did you continue to go back to the well on that you developed at Loras?
::You know, Dave, I really do believe, and I've thought about it here since I stepped down from the AD position now four years ago. I've had a lot of time to think about that foundational piece. And for me, I think, and I learned it quickly at Loras, I had a lot of political theory and leadership theory in graduate school. But then at Loras, I had an opportunity to implement that theory.
::theory.
::And so I kind of figured out how to blend, I think, under fire the relationship between leadership and political acumen. And today I continue to think and talk about it in the course that I teach, an MBA course. And by the way, on September 8th, I'll start my 44th year teaching this class. Look out,
::Look out, undergrads. Here it comes. Here it comes.
::it comes. It's all graduate. All graduate level.
::All graduate level. All right. And I talk to them about the intersection of leadership and politics.
::And I talk to them about the intersection of leadership and politics. And quite frankly, let me digress and just say you can't be the leader unless you can effectively manage all the competing political forces. And you can't manage all the... competing political forces unless you are the leader. And those things are like, you know, they're married. And I think I've learned that, so to speak, objective at Loras and then took it to Maine and Tulane and Arizona State and, of course, Notre Dame and then on to Duke. So I think that's kind of what my foundational piece is. And I talk a lot about it in The Good Sport.
::And I think it's safe to say that university campuses have a lot of competing interests in that regard, right? I mean, both within an athletic department, but also surrounding by the surrounding university. So managing the, to your point, politics is integral to being an effective leader, isn't it?
::It absolutely is. And, you know, when I think about higher education generally, Dave, is highly political. There is nothing quite as political as college athletics on a campus and perhaps within society. Everybody thinks they can do it. And you've got a lot of constituency groups that kind of need to be navigated and if not led to an objective or a certain place. It's really a challenge and it's never ending because the constituency groups, that's a mammoth number of folks who... from fandom to investors and everybody in between, notwithstanding student athletes, coaches and faculty and staff. Everybody wants in the game. It's the voice door.
::Not too many deans of physics departments have people looking over their shoulder and say, well, why did you do that? And I'm not sure. I guess second guess that decision. That's a far cry from an athletic director. There are a lot of people watching what's going on.
::And or a coach and anybody involved with college athletics. I mean, there's so much public consumption of the enterprise that it's easily kind of, you know, dissected. And everybody wants to be a recreational athletics person. I mean, it is, I call it cynically Irish New York cynicism. It's a toy store. Everybody wants to come into the toy store. It's got all the fun stuff.
::a toy
::It's got all the fun stuff.
::But a lot of people don't understand the rhythm and connectivity. of everything that goes on in the place. Does that dynamic tension between athletics,
::Does that dynamic tension between athletics, some of the universities I've been to, like that exists, like there's a dynamic tension between the academic side of the university and the athletic side of the university. Is that just a, is that a common thing? Is it an exceptional thing that happens at some schools? And how do you navigate that as you arrive at those opportunities?
::I think it's ever -present at every institution at some level. um it it's amazing some of these large monolithic big public universities with enormous fan bases tend to be highly political mostly from the external side but the mission's pretty clear and distinct that we're going to support this thing and we're going to compete at the highest level. Other schools, smaller schools, and that's what's interesting about the NCAA, another digression. It's like the bar scene from Star Wars, different size, shapes, and colors. Division one, two, three, public, private, big market, small market, and the rest of it. And so there's not a lot of consistency of a level of interest and support at those different. differing kinds of places institutions along that continuum so there are places that are pretty schizophrenic even today about college athletics we can't live with it can't live without it and somehow the operation of that has to kind of lay in in between both of those polar positions um for just for a quick sidebar that might be the first star wars
::for just for a quick sidebar that might be the first star wars NCAA analogy that's been made on this podcast. So kudos to you, sir. Kudos to you.
::been made on
::you. Whatever it was called.
::The bar scene at the cantina, actually. My Star Wars obsessed daughter is now sometimes nodding. Way to go, dad. You nailed it.
::Way to go,
::Now, Notre Dame and Duke were two of the last stops on your trajectory as an athletic director. And these are two schools that occupy, I think, a fairly unique... place in college athletics right both are recognized for certainly their athletic prowess but also for their academic standing and so when you're leading those programs on the athletic side can you talk about balancing the demands from coaches who are trying to recruit as aggressively as they possibly can but on the academic side maintaining those academic standards. Is that a constant battle? Is it an understanding that works on? How do you manage that when you have competing interests in that regard?
::It's the ultimate pragmatic tug of war. And again, it is ever pressing, particularly at the academically robust and well -branded institutions. And, you know, I've been very fortunate. I've been at, again, Duke and Notre Dame and way back at Tulane. But there are only a handful of schools that are, I mean, really serious about academic performance. I mean, really serious. That are competing at that level.
::competing at that level. Yeah.
::I mean, there's not that many, really. And so finding ways to go out and recruit kids, evaluate kids that can fit academically and athletically within the mission of the institution is an ongoing. And at some of the really committed institutions, the challenge is pretty enormous. At the end of the day, the athletes you bring in have got to compete on the academic side with the kids with perfect test scores and have real strong aspirations academically. And they've got to be competitive in that environment. So I've been really fortunate to be at three really high -end academic schools. And by the way, some of the other schools I was at were pretty darn good as well. I mean, Loras College, a small school in Dubuque, Iowa, was pretty darn committed to providing a really good academic experience for students. And students and grads have done really well knowing it coming out of that place. I would put Maine, I used to call Maine a public Ivy.
::I mean,
::mean, they wanted to be, you know, kind of a sublet of the Ivy system. And we're really serious about academics. And of course, Tulane, I've already mentioned, was, you know, a serious player. And then Arizona State was an emerging. and created an honors college within, you know, a mammoth. Which is exceptional.
::Which is exceptional.
::Yeah, which is just like an Ivy school within, you know, it's like a Dartmouth in the middle of Tempe, in the middle of Arizona State, which is now 170 ,000 students. So I've been fortunate to be around a lot of these institutions, but back to the Katina bar scene, they're all a little bit different.
::Yeah, it's one of the biggest challenges associated with the NCAA, and one of those friction points that's always going on is your, dealing with what is now the power four versus the Lorses in that cadre of schools that are saying, well, I mean, how do we fit into this overall paradigm when particularly now? Which brings up the next question, right? I mean, you have been an athletic director in, I think, what only can be described the most tumultuous period of time in college athletics that anybody's ever seen. NIL, conference realignments. money pouring in certainly from broadcast and soon to be apparently from private equity. What do you feel like were some of the catalysts that got us to this point that change just seemed to be happening on almost a minute -by -minute basis?
::You know, Dave, there's a really good book, and it was published in, I think, 1976. It was called Sport in America by the great American researcher James Michener. And which is really fascinating. And it's no longer in publication, but you can buy it on the used book online space. But in any event, everything that's happened today, he prognosticated in the early 70s. And some of the old guard that are no longer with us, the giants that mentored me and were really very good to meet Gene Corrigan, I'll throw up as an example. Cedric Dempsey, who we just lost, just passed. These were giants in college athletics. When I'd be around those guys in the last 20 years or so, 30, I'd say, who the hell was Michener talking to? How did he know that we were going to play a compression state economic game? That's the verbiage I've come up with for my class. We're emulating corporate America, finding ways to amortize more resources. across fewer units. And that's what's led to conference realignment. And it's basically a corporate formula. And, you know, I don't see a lot of pundits write about that, but that's clearly what it is. And so that's kind of shaped all the behaviors that we're now dealing with. It was only a matter of time, probably, before we were going to start to distribute some of the resources of student athletes. We've gotten so big and so much resource. And so monetizing all the different... entities of the enterprise was probably a necessity about 10 or 15 years ago. And had we done it on our own terms, rather than the way it's kind of gone down here as of late, I think we'd be in a better place today. But, you know, a lot of us, including me, I'm guilty, we're Neanderthal and, you know, we just, we didn't accept that paradigm change. But it was changing and we just didn't make an accident to kind of get in front of it.
::Was there a moment where you think, looking back, that the universities and the NCAA could have managed this moment, could have gotten out ahead of it? Or was it more or less everybody woke up and, oh my gosh, it's the NCAA versus house and everything has changed behind closed doors?
::I was at a dinner on Tuesday night in New York with a bunch of current and former Nike guys. That question was posed to me. And, you know, I found myself saying, you know, we had a moment I think about, as I just kind of said it, 15 years ago, where we could have gotten out in front of this thing. And we could have created tomorrow, as Peter Drucker might say, but we didn't do that. And so tomorrow was then created by other folks for us. And we've got to live with that. We just didn't have the vision to get there first and to be the first mover.
::I think it's safe to say that in the model that you had at that time was performing well for the entrenched organizational powers that were in place at that time, right? It's just that when the legal challenges started to happen, that flips the script a little bit. And it seems like it's kind of caused the NCAA to descend into irrelevance to a certain degree. And does this, with change happening to the NCAA, versus the NCAA initiating change. Is this new college sports sustainable? Can this car be fixed? Or is it time to trade into something new?
::Well, great question. And that was clearly a subject of conversation at this dinner I just alluded to this past Tuesday night. I should have been there.
::I should have been there. We could have saved time. We could have done the podcast.
::We could have done the podcast. We could have just held the microphone up.
::could have just held the microphone up.
::In the middle of my chicken and whatever.
::But I don't know really what the answer is. I mean, I think it's where, you know, everything changes in life. But, you know, that's one of the, I think, when I'm going to be 75 here shortly. And when I look back at the way things have evolved and changed and will continue, I've come to realize nothing stays the same. And I know that's kind of a cliche,
::continue, I've
::kind of a cliche, but that's true. And so I think we're going to be looking at a much different NCAA in the future. It's toxic at this point. You know, the public opinion has really soured on the national organization or the national association. But quite frankly, you can't have a college sport landscape without a parental organization. You just, it can't exist.
::Something has to police it.
::Something has to replace it. And so I think it'll be modified. It'll be different. and i think conferences will tend to play larger roles particularly relative uh date to the power four and i believe that and uh and then i think some outside adjunct agencies will develop not unlike the irs but the federal government you know so enforcement will be kind of a inside outside organization i was involved i was on the the board of the us opc for eight years and we created safe sport which was kind of an adjunct and it's not
::i believe
::that and uh and then i think some outside adjunct agencies will develop not unlike the irs but the federal government you know so enforcement will be kind of a inside outside organization i was involved i was on the the board of the us opc for eight years and we created safe sport which was kind of an adjunct and it's not It's not directed or led by the USOPC, but it's funded by it. And they support the mission of, you know,
::they support
::the mission of, you know, the Olympic movement. So the same kind of thing is, I think, in college athletics as it relates to the NCAA. I think there'll be some appendages created that will kind of be inside, outside, more outside than inside as we go to the next iteration. And, you know, you're reading about some of this, but it's not totally vetted at this point. But I think we'll start to hear, we'll get some more clarity. Charlie Baker's working really hard to reinvent this organization, but it's troubled. And again, it doesn't have a lot of credibility. And that's tough. He took over at a really difficult time. It took over at a difficult time when power really did seem to shift to the conferences,
::It took over at a difficult time when power really did seem to shift to the conferences, right? At a time when the NCAA was used to calling the tune. Now the commissioners of the SEC. and the big 10 and the big 12 and the acc they seemed you know clearly the sec and the big 10 much more so seem to be calling the tune right now and that does seem to create exacerbate that thing that we were talking about earlier if it's the cantina before some of those schools aren't even allowed in the cantina anymore they're on the outside looking in yeah i mean and
::i mean and There's multiple cantinas, but the cantina at the top of Power 4 is different than the one that encompasses 1 ,100 institutions within the NCAA with, you know, Division 3 and 2 and non -football and the rest of it. I mean, it's just really, there is no proposition that can effectively represent one size fits all. And I think we tried to hold on to that for... perhaps way too long. We should have seen that coming as well.
::the rest
::Disruption comes for everybody, apparently. We just didn't have the vision and or the leadership to attack some of these issues before they become,
::We just didn't have the vision and or the leadership to attack some of these issues before they become, you know, they became tapped.
::Do you think there's a role for the federal government in organizing this? Do you think that they're like, as you talk about organizing body and the policing body, and I know that there's been noise about commissions involving Nick Saban and things like that, but should the federal government step in?
::I think at this point, I mean, this thing has become really big business. I don't know that it can be managed without some kind of federal mitigation. And if it's antitrust, whatever it is, and the professional leagues that have enjoyed antitrust have really benefited. And even if we're still part of the academy, which I'm a huge proponent of maintaining college athletics as part of the university or the academy, even if we're part of that, We have become really big business. And let me characterize it for you. I teach it in my class. You know, all forms of sport domestically represents about a trillion dollars in our country. And it's about 6 % of the gross domestic product. You know, all forms of sport in terms of the global economy are between 3 and 4 trillion and about 5 % of the global economy. I mean, so sport is big business. And college athletics is a fairly sizable segment of that enterprise. And so I think we may absolutely at some point have to have some kind of protective cover in order to operate this mammoth financial piece of the sports economic scene. I also am struck by the idea that college sports operated in a certain way for 100 years,
::am struck by the idea that college sports operated in a certain way for 100 years, let's just call it, right? This is the way it was done. And then in a span of five years or less, was told that the economic system that they'd been built now has to completely change. And I'm not sure I'm aware of any other industry that has had its entire economic structure basically thrown to the ground and shattered and have to rebuild it while still in the middle of operating yeah and i the incipient challenges associated with that are unimaginable well they're they're enormous and you know and maybe the way we're operating right now isn't sustainable and so then the question you asked is it fixable and i don't think under the the immediate
::incipient challenges
::they're they're enormous and you know and maybe the way we're operating right now isn't sustainable and so then the question you asked is it fixable and i don't think under the the immediate way of doing things, the immediate paradigm, it is fixable. So I think we need to accept a hell of a lot more change, pretty dramatic change to get to a place where it will be then once again, sustainable. But I worry, there's 500 ,000 kids in the NCA system that are enjoying one heck of an experience. And I'm not objective, but I think it's life changing. Kids don't tell you that.
::Yeah. Look, in 2020, you and I don't know if this is one of the first examples of UNC and Duke working together. You and Bubba Cunningham, the athletic director there, you released a joint statement about NIL. And we're concerned about how it would upset the competitive balance. And part of that statement included this idea of, look, you can dismiss our concerns as a couple of athletic directors who want to maintain the status quo. But given the way that that has unfolded, do you feel like the status quo should have been preserved? Or has your opinion shifted on the way NIL is impacting college sports?
::You know, I think all of us are guilty of shifting. I think NIL on its face value probably had some redeeming value early on. But the human behavior, as I think I anticipated, would get involved. And funny money has made this thing a pay -for -play situation now. And it's really disrupted. semblance of the level playing field and you know college athletics not i mean professional sports are designed to have somewhat of a level playing field even though there's some differentiation sizes and the rest sure but but you can't if you don't think a level playing field's really important if not critical talk to our our counterparts in in western europe they don't have an ncaa and so when they compete against one another They have no idea who's going to show up on the other side of the field. But they're all responsible for the win or loss headline. So they're dying for an NCA. We can't live with one. And we're thinking, we're going to jettison the NCA. And they would like to have it transition over to Western Europe. I don't know. Can we use maybe the tariffs?
::I don't know. Can we use maybe the tariffs? We can move it over to...
::Make it part of the packages. But they just come over here and studied our crazy NCAA as well. But again, it's hard not to have some kind of a parental organization over top of a pretty massive sporting landscape to not preserve somewhat of this level, elusive level playing field that we all talk about. But I think we will kill. You know, we will kill the enterprise if we don't preserve it. So I think something like an NCAA has to persist.
::Now, you're widely recognized in your, particularly in your time at Duke, for your efforts to increase diversity and inclusion in college athletics administration, right? You required candidate pools to include underrepresented groups. You helped launch the open door policy for giving diverse populations internship opportunities.
::right? You required
::I think it's safe to say now that diversity, equity, and inclusion is clearly under attack at the federal level. So I'm wondering what thoughts or advice you have for today's academic and athletic administrators when it comes to those kinds of issues, when they're obviously clearly something that they're being confronted with.
::I'll be really concise on this one. I'd stay the course in terms of DEI. Take a look at the student -athlete population. across those 500 000 kids that are in the ncaa system right now and to provide people that are like them if not just look like them and come from the same kinds of backgrounds they come from underrepresented populations and the rest i think would be would be a travesty to be honest with you i think we've worked really hard to get to this place in college athletics and it wasn't that long ago where we we didn't have the kind of equity representation that would that I would think somebody that sees the world the way that I do, which is not for everybody, would have thought was unreasonable. But in any event, we've come a long way. And we've had a whole bunch of people, Dave, and I'm just very braggadocious, so I apologize. That's a podcast.
::podcast. You're the guest. This is where you do these kinds of things.
::We had 39 of our colleagues over all these crazy years. I was in AD 38 years. 39 become ADs. And people often... talk about that. It's the coaching tree. We've had great people that were really committed and really talented or whatever.
::the coaching tree.
::I'm proud of that, but I'm more proud of the fact that over 30 % of them were pluralistic, that were either female and or ethnic minority or both. I just think if we don't continue to forge forward on the DEI trail within the collegiate athletics community, that will bite us. I mean, the economics are biting us right now. That will be the next revolution if, in fact, we forego the DEI commitment.
::Okay. So stay the course is the advice. You're going to sum it up. Thank you for the longer answer.
::advice. You're going to
::Sorry.
::Right. Because you could have summed it up like that. Now, I'm assuming this is going to play a role. in the good sport so i want if you could talk a little bit about the writing of the book what was the what was the moment that you said i think it's time to start collecting all the stories and coalescing this thing into a vision yeah and i'll try to do it fairly quickly because it's that's a long answer if i'm going to be honest about it which um i have great pride in being a truth teller i'll take great pride in being a truth teller i can tell you that in 2022
::and i'll try to do it fairly quickly because it's that's a long answer if i'm going to be honest about it which um i have great pride in being a truth teller i'll take great pride in being a truth teller i can tell you that in 2022 My wife, Jane, and we were a coaching duet early on in the 70s and the 80s, early 80s. And in any event, she scheduled our 50th wedding anniversary in Dublin. And she had invited all our kids and grandkids. And now that's, you know, we have five kids and 16 grandkids and spouses of 28 people. And so we are heading to Dublin in July of 2022. And Anthony Travel. Maybe you're aware of Anthony Travel. The foremost entity that gets involved with athletics travel in our country, John Anthony, gets wind of the fact that we're going to go to Dublin for this event. And we're going to go two days early, he finds out. And so unbeknownst to us, he invites a whole bunch of our former colleagues to surprise us in Dublin. And the number is about 25. And so in any event, they come to Dublin. two days before the kids and their grandkids arrived, and way too much Red Views and too much Guinness.
::And a lot of... Oh,
::a lot of... Oh,
::the number of things that had happened as a result of that.
::the number
::Exactly. This is kind of an extension of Catholic school education, but our Irish Catholic. And in any event, the conversation tended to focus on, you need to write this journey down. We were all part of it. You need to write it down. You need to commit to us that you'll do this.
::We were all
::and i kind of poo -pooed it and it was july then august and i got to about september and i said to jane you know i think i might do that yeah so i started i wrote the whole damn book so the the planted the seed was planted overseas and just couldn't quite shake it and it was all but a commitment made by me you know i'll take the heart your interest let me think about it september i start to write the thing
::the the planted the seed was planted overseas and just couldn't quite shake it and
::just couldn't quite shake it and it was all but a commitment made by me you know i'll take the heart your interest let me think about it september i start to write the thing And whatever it is, 65 ,000 words, 217 pages. I wrote it all on my iPhone. No, you did not.
::you did not.
::I did. Every word. Every word. I never used a legal pad. Never wrote anything down. And what I did, I'd write it in capsule form. And then I'd go back to colleagues from that era or that situation and say, do you remember this the way that I do? And we did a lot of fact checking. But anyway, I wrote the whole darn thing. in about two years on my on my iphone how are your thumbs did you reports writing about plays i mean i wrote whatever i was consumed with it for the 24 months so once you kicked the door down you couldn't stop i couldn't stop and then i have i have our oldest is the only person not been in college athletics per se her name is maureen treadway and she's a an english teacher out in at notre dame prep in scottsdale
::once you kicked the door down you couldn't stop i
::couldn't stop and then i have i have our oldest is the only person not been in college athletics per se her name is maureen treadway and she's a an english teacher out in at notre dame prep in scottsdale And I said, you know, Maureen, I'll do the storytelling, and I'll give you a bunch of stuff out of my course that we can put in this book, but I need you to clean it up. Take all my expletives out. Take all my silly language out.
::Just taking out the expletives reduced the word count for you. That was a full -time job.
::That was a full -time job. And so she cleaned it up and took her a couple months, and the rest is history. And Euron's published it, and it's been great. and you know one of the great things about it is it's given me an opportunity at this crazy age to to reconnect to to individuals and and and fans of my past i'm hearing from a lot of my former athletes and that i had i coached in high school and so i coached nine years ad for 38 and so there are a lot of people along the way right giving me the opportunity to reconnect with with many people and i never i that was an unattended consequence, but a really good one.
::Boo Corrigan, when he was NC State's AD, said this about working with you. And he said, I was always struck by Kevin White's humility and willingness to listen to all sides before making a decision. And I'm wondering, there's so much of your job, like we started talking about is about leadership. And I'm wondering if you can speak to that comment in particular, because there's no shortage of ego in college athletics. And so humility and listening, I think generally for people who are, I think when we think of some people high up in athletics, they're more about grabbing the microphone and making sure their voice is heard. So speak to those qualities and how they've been effective and efficient for you when sometimes people I think can misinterpret those as being quote unquote softer kind of things. So how does that evolve?
::I don't really know how to react to that. I don't know how other people perceive me or see me over all these years. You know, I've been fooling around with this stuff for almost half a century. But, you know, Boo is very gifted. And, you know, it's interesting within the ACC, we had the ACC surrounded. Of course, Nina King is at Duke and has taken my position. Nina and I started at Notre Dame in 2000. So it's amazing. And Bubba was on our staff at Notre Dame, and he was at UNC. And Boo Corrigan is at NC State. And Bernard Muir, who was just at Stanford, was on our staff as well. And Alan Green at Pitt was on our staff. Jimmy, Christmas. Yeah,
::Stanford, was on
::and Jimmy Phillips, the commissioner of the ACC, was on our staff as well at Notre Dame and Arizona State. And so, I mean, and Stamp Wilcox at one point, he just stepped down and retired from the EVP position at the NCAA. was on our staff at Notre Dame and Duke, and then became the AD at Florida State. So, I mean, we've had the ACC thing kind of surrounded, and it's been fun just to watch all these people kind of emerge. They're very talented. We've had, again, and a lot of those names I just referenced showed up in Dublin. You know, we had a big retirement thing, or they did, the department here at Duke. They had a very nice retirement function set up, and then COVID hit. And so then the retirement moved offshore in 2022. Wow.
::You got to go where the options present themselves. Absolutely.
::Absolutely. The Guinness is better over there.
::It's fresher. It's much fresher.
::It's much fresher.
::Hey, so Kevin, as we wind up, you know, there's obviously a lot of people who see your career and want to just emulate it, right? You know, you've worked at the highest positions within college sports. you have a reputation i think that we've been talking about here that you know precedes itself i'm wondering as you think back to yourself at loris take this full circle you know what advice would you give to kevin white on his first day at loris based on everything you know now because that might actually apply to the people who are seeking to emulate what you're doing or have done you know i i was i was a slow starter i was a slow to
::know i i was i was a slow starter i was a slow to to really embrace the academic side of life for a lot of reasons. And they're all articulated in the good sport, but for lots of different reasons. And then I found my way to St. Joseph's College in Rensselaer, Indiana and kind of got a footing and then really got into the Catholic education, coached and then went to, again, to Loras. And I think the foundation I had at St. Joe played really well for me at Loras. which and loris is you know the insiders of loris call notre dame big loris and vice versa they call you know that they call notre dame little loris and so yeah but there's a real connection by the way historically it's in the book between those two institutions so i think just being fortunate enough to as i scrambled through adolescence and and found my way to uh some higher ground academically and then played forward and i just played through and so what i tell people be authentic be yourself uh and and dream and by the way dream big you know my first dream was to be a coach and i loved my time coaching and you know as people if crazy enough to listen to me i think i was a better coach than i was in ad but i at i turned out and track and field in my day wasn't the sport it is today and i you know i just didn't think i could make a you know a 50 -year run out of track and field and i don't think track and field would have had me for a 50 -year run but but in any event i you know i had taken that that part of my professional life serious and interviewed for the head coaching job and feeling and at 28 years old and anyway we had a couple of other offshore places and just decided to at one point i'm going to try this administration thing and i finished a phd lawrence knocked on the door i said no initially they came back a month later and in a weak moment i said yes buyer's remorse for about three and loved it and it's that led to 38 years in this business it sounds like also give yours to give yourself the grace of time
::sounds like also give yours to give yourself the grace of time to a certain degree right you don't have to have everything figured out right out of the gate right you know you think you want to do one thing but keep your eyes open to opportunities as they present themselves yeah but be authentic and and and treat others the way you treat yourself or the way you'd want to be treated pardon me and you know i've got a lot of those things in the book but i i've kind of tried to live by those and and surround yourself with great people they were all much more talented than i ever was and their careers have proved that to be true
::sounds like also give yours
::you think you want to
::but be authentic and and and treat others the way you treat yourself or the way you'd want to be treated pardon me and you know i've got a lot of those things in the book but i i've kind of tried to live by those and and surround yourself with great people they were all much more talented than i ever was and their careers have proved that to be true
::I'm with Kevin White. He's the former athletic director for Duke University and author of The Good Sport, which is currently available on Amazon. Definitely worth picking that up and following the journey of one of the most accomplished athletic directors that have ever been in college sports. Kevin White, thank you for the time today. But before I let you go, I'm going to have to put you in the lightning round. Go ahead, please. Oh, okay. Well, that seems enthusiastic. We'll see what you're saying at the end of the lightning round. All right. You were, as noted, a sprinter for St. Joseph's College back that day. What event was your best and how would you fare in today's ACC championships?
::I wouldn't even make the ninth team.
::I didn't even realize you carried nine teams.
::No, but I mean, yeah, I would be horrific today, but I enjoyed it very much. I loved track and field and became... i think a student of track and field as i learned how to coach to different events and so forth and and we had some good success at different places at central michigan and southeast missouri but what was your what was your event what was your i was i was i was a short sprinter okay and and 100 more than the 200 but i could run the 400.
::what was your what was your event what was your i was i
::was i was i was a short sprinter okay and and 100 more than the 200 but i could run the 400.
::nobody wants to win the 400. i was yeah i was pretty versatile and but i was one of these kids that grew late you know i and so and
::was yeah i was pretty versatile and but i was one of these kids that grew late you know i and so and like junior high i was more of an 880 then and then when i got into high school i was more of a quarter miler and then when i got to college i you know i was a much bigger kid and and i worked my way down to the short sprints but that will tell you i wasn't very talented but i every second of it jack of all trades jack of all trades master of some yeah okay now your family
::but i
::know i was a much bigger kid and and i worked my way down to the short sprints but that will tell you i wasn't very talented but i every second of it jack of all trades
::jack of all trades jack of all trades master of some
::of some
::now your family is widely regarded as the first family of college sports, right? Your kids, a lot of ADs, not only in your fork role, but your kids have gone into ADs and coaching roles at different universities and things like that. Obviously, a lot of family pride there. Are family gatherings impossibly competitive?
::Yes. And the most competitive player within our family is the matriarch. Jane is fiercely competitive, brutally. So how does that manifest itself?
::how does that manifest itself? Is she a trash talker? Is your wife a trash talker? All trash talkers,
::yeah. They're all trash talkers. We have a family text that goes on every day. Everybody in the family over 18 is on the family text. All the grandkids and everything.
::the grandkids and everything.
::If you're 18. It must be chaos.
::It must be chaos.
::And for them, for the grandkids, it seems to be more important. That first driver's license or the opportunity to have it there to be on the family text. And anyway, so the only non -family members on the family text are Nina and Rick King, who are like our kids. Nina was with me since 2000 at Notre Dame, and now she's the top AD going. I mean, she's killing it at Duke. What an upgrade she is at Duke. But in any event, the trash talking a bit from our kids kind of emulates from their mother, who's ridiculously competitive.
::Okay. All right. Last one. What would you say if I told you that I once won my final four office pool by picking teams based on which mascot would defeat the other one in battle? Because what beats a blue devil?
::I don't think anything beats a blue devil.
::Right. I mean, it's kind of, it's like a magical creature to a certain degree.
::It is. It is.
::So not surprising.
::And intended to be, I think. And it's, and it's lived up to. To that definition. In my humble, non -objective opinion.
::You can take the man out of the role, but you can't take the role out of the man. Kevin White, very much appreciate the time.
::Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be on your show. Take care, man.
